'You found nothing': Post office inquiry sees tense exchange
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 29 ก.ย. 2024
- A postmaster’s concerns about errors in Horizon were dismissed as “unfounded”, the inquiry heard.
Post Office investigator, Robert Daily, questioned Peter Holmes about a shortage of more than £46,000 which was discovered during an audit.
Mr Holmes, a sub-postmaster from Newcastle, said he had “absolutely no idea” why there was a shortage but suggested Horizon may be at fault.
He said: “Unless it’s the Horizon that has let us down, there is no one who has stolen £40,000. I haven’t got it, it’s not in my bank account… I’ve spent too many years in the police force seeing things go wrong to start stealing money, I really do not know.”
Mr Daily later said checks were made and that the postmaster’s concerns were “unfounded”.
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Judging by the questions he asked Sir Wyn is obviously wise to the inadequate and inappropriate investigations of the post office officials.
Except the Post Office ones !
What? He just made the biggest f00l of himself I've ever seen.
He should be fired
Oh I'm pretty sure he knows :)
They stood over people, with no real legal reason to do so and demand they pay money they didn't owe with the threat of charging them with something they didn't do.
This happened in New York years ago.
They were called The Mafia.
Sick and tired of seeing the corrupt go unpunished in this country.
many from the working class became right wing, this is the reason these scumbags go unpunished, the working class look after the rich at their own detriment, they worshiped bojo, gave him a landslide victory!
Especially when corporations are allowed to abuse the public , there is no care for the British people. Which politicians have spoken on this subject about post office corruption????
Couldn't agree more
They didn't set out to investigate the supposed "disappearance" of money, they simply set out to prosecute people because blaming postmasters would hide their incompetence in accepting hugely faulty software.
They were not investigators, all they were there for was to get money from the subpostmasters. If they didn't hand over the cash they prosecuted them as a warning to others to frighten them into giving the PO money or the same would happen to them. If they were still alive the Krays would be running the PO as a protection racket.
The system of bonuses for convictions which we recently learned about turned these investigators into bounty hunting goons.
WHY HAVE THE AUDITORS BEEN ALLOWED TO GET AWAY SCOT FREE, THEY WERE THE PEOPLE WHO SAID THE MONEY WAS MISSING
And the cash was nice.
@@allanmason3201 'Bounty Hunters' is a brilliant description for these rogues👌
Yes he admitted to false accounting prompted by the investigators who indicated that would make a charge of THEFT go away. On both counts the obvious next question is - On what evidence were either charges of Theft or False Accounting based. I presume the answer is a total lack of evidence for either, but maybe his bonus depended upon someone being charged with an offence !!!!!
How could they have not found out what happened to the money if he had admitted to false accounting?
Bloody difficult to avoid accusations of false accounting when post office policy insisted that SPM’s signed declarations accepting responsibility for unexplained losses every time they attempted to balance their accounts.
I said from the start the PO investigators would be on bonus's for how many they could stitch up.Plus anyone with access at Fujitsu to the Horizon hubs of each PO branch with the capability of remotely altering the branch's Cash Balances could be resposible for an astronomical fraud. with the sub-postmasters left to 'carry the can'.
Some Postmasters made up the bogus 'shortfall' by using their own savings, so admitted to false accounting because technically that's what they'd done.
They were in a no-win situation against a corrupt organisation that wasn't interested in the truth, only in blame shifting and vengeance.
Thought - funny how the software glitch always showed the PO was owed money, never that they owed money to the Postmasters!
The false accounting came about when the SPMs made the system balance, but the reporting at the backend said money was owed. As they had signed their accounts, it is deemed to be false accounting because they knew the system said there was a deficit. It is that kind of faulty logic that got them to prosecute. Only need two brain cells to know that is rubbish. No postmaster would go from years of manually balancing their accounts to suddenly stealing £20/30/40k!
There were missing and faulty processes in place. The Horizon system wasn't originally designed for its use as the Post Office accounting system, and I will bet good money that the requirements for the system didn't come from the postmasters or to replicate the manual system. The government and businesses use lots of repurposed systems, which always staggers me, but it is usually because they don't want to pay for development from scratch.
It's like being the 70's. 'No need for evidence, I got a confession guv!'
They stood over people, with no real legal reason to do so and demand they pay money they didn't owe with the threat of charging them with something they didn't do.
This happened in New York years ago.
They were called The Mafia.
Accepted no responsibly and when asked what he’d say to Mr Holmes if he were alive, NOWHERE did any uttering of sorry or apologise occur.
The media said nothing about this. Look at them now.
He’s lying. Jail him for the rest of his days
I’ve only paused that long, when the wife asked me if I had been too the casino 👍
The trouble with private security like this guy, is they think they are Dirty Harry. No one to answer to. No company standards. Just the head of security and his minions dishing out allegations via the “disciplinary procedures”. Absolute clowns. I see guys like this all the time as a union rep.
These investigators were predominantly ‘long serving’ Postal employees ....and there lies the problem within government quangos ....long serving government employees become ‘institutionalised’ in a set way of thinking and doing business because they believe they are untouchable due to ‘plausible deniability’ 😔
We will drop the theft charge iff u fess up to false accounting.
I was horrified when I heard that Steve Bradshaw helped him in several cases!!!! I pity the poor people that pair “interviewed” Steve with his nasally whine and this plank with his coughs and snorts, talk about putting your best people forward to represent your company
I'm despairing with all of this. Over recent weeks, so many people sitting in this witness chair have been 'pure evil', yet I cannot see how any of them will be brought to account. This witness here is completely incompetent and beyond despicable.
There needs to be a police investigation into these so called investigators and the methodologies used. With prosecutions as required.
They could just admit what EVERYONE knows including them. They were a racket shaking down postmasters for money with threats of violence and jail time if they didn't pay up. They couldn't give two sh*ts if they were innocent and anything that got in the way of payday was to be overlooked and discarded, even illegally.
We know that those postmasters were pressured into a "admission", they never stood a chance. They knew the system was faulty, kept those facts to thenselves. Also whats sickening, all those SPM's whose used their own cash, all of it then became part of the PO's "profits" and lots are STILL waiting for it back,let alone compensation...
Was there enough evidence to show they had stolen the money? No. Was there enough evidence to show they were innocent? Yes. This is what the investigators should have focused on.
they KNEW all that but rather than admit the software was faulty (thus casting blame on the Royal Mail) - the "investigators" tried sweeping it under the rug while STILL implicating the local Postmasters........
Why did Mr Holmes "admit to false accounting"?
Was he bullied into it?
Threatened with a charge of theft or worse?
What were the qualifications of the PO investigators?
If they were retired law enforcement, then their actions were utterly shameful.
Post office should stamp this out
where is the money?
utterly disgusting that he said there was an admittance of false accounting, this was an option subpostmaster and subpostmistresses were given, in the claim that it would lessen the legal sentencing, that they might face. So the blaggard should in fact be sentenced himself.
The KC, Jason Beer is a Rottweiler, but Sir Wyn can be as savage as a Bully XL himself.
They used and abused the innocence of others to cover up their incompetence, so evil 🤬
shocking but not shocking, terrible man realising his own criminality
The Oath they all swear to when giving testimony should be changed too..." I swear to tell everything but the truth...& nothing that is the truth..."
These are the ones who should be sent to prison rather than the innocents who had their lives ruined
Laziness, ignorance, idiocy and a culture of do as little as possible seems to be the way POL have and continue to act. I hope every Sub Postmaster who has ever had any hassle with the Horizon system will see proper justice very, very soon. An absolute National disgrace. Everyone involved in this needs to be looked at with a view to securing criminal proceedings against the real crooks in this story.
His family will never talk to him again
If I cant find my money I search every where not just ask anyone where it is and then blame them for stealing it
Lets hope the uk public will protest if there are no prosecutions......
The computer was known to be faulty but, they were happy to use the evidence of the computer as if it was infallible to prosecute. When the veracity of the computer was calling into question by the defence. The prosecutors had a duty to carry out a pan and paper audit of every suggested irregularity. Regardless of the expense to the organisation. It’s time that all organisations with authority to prosecute on its own behalf, to have the authority removed.
So nobody spotted huge surplus cash elsewhere and a rapid rise in prosecutions?
Very basic verification procedures were obviously not performed suggesting a total lack in competency to perform forensic investigations.
No money was lost. All the money was in the Post Office bank account. All that happened was that the Horizon computer system 'Lost Track' of the money due to its flaws. Any sensible external 'reconciliation' would have shown all the money to be present and correct. The mind boggles at the overall levels of stupidity and criminality within Fujitsu and the Post Office
Is he related to Sturgeon
Go get em Judge. 🌵🌵
Silence is not golden
lol.. an old guy told me when i was 17 that the world ran on bs. made sense over the years and here we are
Silence tells a million stories . Oh dear !!!
Totally nailed.
Finish the Post Office, do all those criminally involved, minimum, twenty year sentence. Easy. No?
They didn’t investigate at all. They just screamed got another one Sir while bowing to ‘team leaders’, I doubt they could find their own derrière without a map & compass
I cannot believe how evil a lot of these people are to allow totally innocent people to go to prison, and then just carry on with their lives.
They were on a bonus !
It was the big house, flash car and fat pension that helped them sleep at night. Their assets should all be sold now and proceeds given to those postmasters.
Everyday !!!!!!
And now being caught out in denial 😡
Interesting how so many of these senior corporate types seem to be appearing on the wrong side of the news these days, and how evasive and resentful many of them appear when being held accountable. Seems a lot of them think that fate is only for the little people. I imagine we'll see similar behaviour when certain of Lucy Letby's senior managers have to answer for their performances.
“Admitted to false accounting” - because Post Office ‘sponsored’ prosecutors told him that would be the best option!!
If he Admitted then where did he say the “stolen” money was?
@@Grz349 Not sure if defendant is required to 'reveal' how they 'spent' proceeds of the 'crime', after 'confession'.
Are there not convictions murder sometimes despite the absence of a body?
Exactly! It was an easier option for the poor Post Office Managers than the PO promise of prosecuting them for theft and getting a prison sentence if they did not agree to the lesser sentence. How can these 'investigators live with themselves.
@@mikeomolt4485The investigation team would be fully aware of 2 things 1. The defendant should they plead guilty would have a less harsh sentence and therefore would be encouraged by both counsel and the investigation team to please guilty, it would cost the post office less in legal fees and they get a ‘positive’ result
2. The defendant was almost certainly innocent due to their being no other evidence apart from the faulty horizon system transaction log.
This is the banality of evil.
@@deborahscott6005, worse, they bluffed charges of theft without evidence.
There are people who have died before their names could be cleared. Horrendous.
It's too sickening
Suicides. They were killed by these people.
It is heartbreaking
What a shocking man
one walked into a bus on the motorway
These people are lying to Sir Wyn , No one is that stupid to not see the problem with not finding any money , It is time that these people started serving some porridge
And he knows they're lying to him, because a good lawyer never asks a question they do not already know the answer to.
It's the classic "no comment" tactic.
It’s absolutely obvious that they are lying through their teeth. That’s one thing that convinces me that they ALL knew
This guy refused to answer a hugely important question from Sir Wyn. They have been coached in cover-up.
I’d like to pay tribute to Mrs Holmes, who sat through this hearing listening to all the questions and answers. How she remained dignified and in control of her emotions deserves our admiration.
The more of these so-called ‘investigators’ at the Inquiry, the more convinced I am that the Post Office had a deliberate policy of employing stupid, ignorant, uncaring, slapdash and vindictive thugs to do their dirty work.
It didn't start there. The Chief Financial Officer is notable by his absence, as are Internal Audit and External Audit.
They will escape justice. It will be a cover up like all the other inquires. Consequences for individuals like Gestapo thug Robert Daily will be quietly forgotten. And don't make me laugh at the powerful millionaire Post Office bosses - not a chance of them being arrested because of this vile case.
Well put.
@@JelMainand Gareth Jenkins - how he's able to dodge the enquiry, demanding immunity before he will attend is incredible - can't they summons him?
@@a120068020 Yesterday’s witness had a sheriff appear on his doorstep to order him to the enquiry, so it seems they have some sort of compulsion to attend. As for Jenkins, both his appearances have been delayed because the Post Office submitted more documents just hours before the scheduled appearance. Cynics might suggest this was deliberate, and that the PO are still trying to obstruct justice. I’m one of those cynics.
Jenkins has twice asked the chair of the Inquiry to apply to the AG for immunity, but this has been refused both times. Apparently he has provided a witness statement, but has not answered most of the questions asked.
Jason Beer KC, Counsel to the Inquiry, along with his colleagues and the Chairman, Sir Wyn Williams, are all as sharp as razors. So are the lawyers and solicitors who are attending and who represent the sub-postmasters. I would not like to be cross-examined by any of them, particularly if I happened to be one of the many who have contributed to this miscarriage of justice.
Everyone of the investigation team who brought the charges should be arrested and charged with perverting the course of justice
Maybe everyone involved should have their belongings appraise to see if they can afford to pay part of the compensation and then have all assets seized to pay the compensation bill, then court with no budget so they get no legal aid to help in their defence and lets see what it is like to be on the on the floor and not even on the bottom rung. Utterly despicable to say i was only doing my job at the end when he blatently only did the half of it coz that way he would get his bonus. They are all scumbags to the last.
And also charged with perjury - it is a serious criminal offence after all.
Something Ive said all along.
What about the AUDITORS
@@johnbarton3252 everybody from the top to the bottom needs to be held to account. Take no prisoners even if they have retired that is no excuse.
See Hannah Arendt's concept of the "banality of evil". This emerged during her coverage of the trial of Adolf Eichmann, one of the chief architects of the Holocaust. Arendt argued that Eichmann was not a monster or a psychopath, but rather an ordinary, unremarkable individual who simply followed orders and carried out his duties without questioning their morality. This idea challenged the prevailing notion that evil is always associated with extraordinary malevolence or psychological abnormality. Arendt's theory suggests that evil can manifest in the actions of ordinary people who become caught up in systems of oppression and dehumanization. She argued that the bureaucratic nature of the Holocaust allowed individuals like Eichmann to distance themselves from the consequences of their actions and view them as merely technical tasks. This detachment from moral considerations led to a "banality" of evil, where individuals become complicit in atrocities without fully comprehending the gravity of their actions.
Also Susan Neiman's "Learning from the Germans" which gives perspectives on how a country can come to terms with its wrong doings. She looks at resurgent nationalism, ongoing debates around reparations or controversies surrounding historical monuments etc based on personal history and conversation with both Americans and Germans grappling with the evils of their own national histories. I wonder how our political and business institutions, and the wider population, will grapple with the evil of the Post Office once the inquiry reveals the full extent of the scandal.
The silence from 1.19 to 1.29 says it all really. The 'investigators' had decided that the sub-postmasters were guilty. End of. Shocking, the post office should never be allowed to investigate anything ever again.
only justice will be to see these people jailed
Of course they did as there were fat bonuses for them if they prosecuted them
They stood over people, with no real legal reason to do so and demand they pay money they didn't owe with the threat of charging them with something they didn't do.
This happened in New York years ago.
They were called The Mafia.
I think Sir Wyn has had enough of these barstewards
Sir Wyn and team are doing a first rate job, they show great tenacity and patience. It will be very interesting to see the report from the Inquiry, and the actions that follow to finally secure justice for the innocent and prosecutions for the guilty.
@@philipwardle6820 True. The inquiry is not finished yet, with modules 5 & 6 to take place and Paula Vinnelles is to be interviewed. Also I noted that the Solicitors Regulatory Authority and Bar Council reps have been in to a parliamentary committee inquiry recently (viewable on TH-cam) and they will be looking into the professional conduct of the Barristers and Solicitors, in this whole affair.
why did they warn people before they gave evidence but not warn others
@@philipwardle6820 Won't it indeed! I don't think that have a lot of power. The police need to pick up with this and join the feeding frenzy that is life today and, as far as I can see, always has been.
@@philipwardle6820 It will be more interesting to see how many guests of his majesty end up away from home, for long periods.
If it hadn't been for the ITV drama on this vile miscarriage of justice, nothing would have ever been done.
This inquiry was happening long before the drama more people are just aware of the issue now
@@ryanhardman7903 It's certainly sped the plough - for which I'm very grateful.
I hope the SPMs get financial redress _plus_ compensation by the end of this year.
The TV programme was very good but the MP that got the ball rolling was in fact Andrew Bridgen . He spent years trying to get someone in authority to listen and investigate. The Blair government is also guilty; the MSM was leant on by the Tory government to keep it under the rug. Very reminiscent of a few journalists trying to expose Muslim grooming gangs. Ironically Andrew Bridgen has lost his place in parliament because he is trying to bring to light the number of excess deaths occurring throughout the western world and the reasons for them, a certain commonality perhaps?
Public enquiry has been going on for the last two years.
Private eye have been campaigning on this since 2012
as I follow this (from Australia), the graft, corruption & 'buck-passing' from senior govt. officials, lawyers/judges & Horizon execs is simply mind-blowing..
One can only imagine the stress & humiliation when 3 or 4 black BMW's pull up to a small local Post Office & they raid the place like it's a terrorist hideout !!
Seems to me that all the investigators, prosecutors, Fujitsu developers and senior post office staff are the ones guilty of ‘false accounting’ by deliberately failing to consider that losses could be caused by computer failures when the evidence was staring them in the face.
The fujitsu developers told their bosses that the system was bug ridden crap and shouldn't be released. Perhaps the Government at the time (1998) should be asked to explain why they allowed fujitsu to deploy it but once again teflon tony gets away with it. The current tories aren't even criticising him and they are going into an election. I suppose they don't want to attack one of their own🙂
He claims he wasn't 'comfortable' in probing his victim's home - but even if he was technically 'doing his job' these investigators are doing themselves no favours. Where is his expression of sympathy for the man's widow? Where is his sense of regret that an innocent man was falsely implicated from his 'investigation'
They are coming across as mini tyrants only interested in saving their own skin
I feel there should be grounds for charges in perverting the course of justice
They stood over people, with no real legal reason to do so and demand they pay money they didn't owe with the threat of charging them with something they didn't do.
This happened in New York years ago.
They were called The Mafia.
This Robert Daily must definitely face a jail sentence.
And a long one at that
Along with Paula Vennells and Stephen Bradshaw
Argree 100%
Give us this day our Daily porridge, and prosecute our sins as we prosecuted those we thought sinned against us.
I've said this before. Jail is far too kind and expensive. It won't even change a thing. I would put them on Pot-hole duties for 10 years. Do something useful for *?* sake... !
Its just absolutely shocking the levels of incompetence
Typical political spoils system
no, this is incompetence, it's corruption, wide spread corruption.
I don't believe this is incompetence the management knew exactly what they were doing, this is a perfect example of workplace bullying of the highest order.
it's not just incompetence though - it's deliberate, willful ignorance. If it was just incompetence I don't think he would have been as silent. Clearly there was a heavy steer by the PO that they'd paid so much money for Horizon that it was not allowed to be at fault.
I started out thinking that it was simple incompetence; the supply of that in the world is endless. But the more I hear, the more I'm convinced it was worse than that. It was executives chasing bonuses, no matter what lies they had to tell, no matter what the long-term cost to the organisation might be. It was crass corporate indifference to the wellbeing of employees. It was everybody covering their backside. It was management covering up their failures and ignorance.
Well Robert Daily, Steve Bradshaw and many others right to the top, will have to expect tougher and much more aggressive questioning when the inquiry is complete and criminal proceedings start………
Wondering about how the timetable for criminal proceedings looks. Can criminal proceedings commence before the Enquiry is finished? Probably a year for the findings to be published? A year or so to formulate the charges, trials would be long and complicated. If anybody is ever sentenced most will be approaching into their eighties, and Judges have form in granting mercy to aged white collar crims. I'm not holding my breath.
@@petertaysum8947 Criminal proceedings could start before the inquiry concludes but the police have already indicated that they will limit themselves to evidence gathering until it does so not to be seen to prejudice the inquiry's findings.
@@petertaysum8947You’re right not to hold it! Nothing at all will happen to them.
God I hope so.
In a court of law every witness, for prosecution and defence have to declare on oath, " the truth, the WHOLE truth and nothing but the truth.Knowingly withholding relevant and crucial evidence is both perjury AND perverting the course of justice so EVERY post office appointed investigator who gave evidence in court MUST be charged with one or both of these offences.Those are serious charges , which if convicted must result in prison sentences.
It didn’t occur to me, in the light of absolutely no evidence and nothing to find, that it may actually be a computer glitch - as we'd been told repeatedly by all those we were hounding, (I was too busy conducting a witch hunt). Is the actual answer when asked "Didn't it occur to him....", rather than "Not at the time sir"
And he probably was paid a great deal of money for his incompetence.
He wasn't incompetent, he was malicious .....His job was to prosecute sub-postmasters and recover 'shortfalls'. He didn't look for any other evidence.
They got a percentage of the money recovered as bonus payments. Or to give it its proper name, “bounty hunting”!
They stood over people, with no real legal reason to do so and demand they pay money they didn't owe with the threat of charging them with something they didn't do.
This happened in New York years ago.
They were called The Mafia.
Did they ever blame whoever was responsible for the recruitment of what they clearly thought were over 900 criminals or did they just think it was an unlucky coincidence? The incompetence is staggering! Someone in the organisation was clearly criminally negligent.
…and no doubt making a pretty penny or two 😉
Did they fix the bug at some point in the past? I mean at some point they must have stopped having the problem or they would not have stopped prosecuting sub-postmasters. When did the prosecutions end? Or have they been ongoing up til now?
@@AndyCutright No never fixed all of the holes. Too expensive, one of them said that.
@@AndyCutright it’s not on-going - it’s the case for the post masters (victims) that has taken so long and still hasn’t been fully resolved
The bug(s) are still present. All that has stopped is the prosecutions but the subpostmasters are still being held liable for the differences.
All these Post Office guys have been coached by their Lawyers to answer I don't know, I can't recall, etc.
Yep, and probably the same law firms who helped prosecute the victims.
Straight from the Nicola Sturgeon book on how to deal with inquiries.
Her record was 50 I don't know, I don't recall, I can't remember and I was not aware, in a single session.
@@bobdylan7120what a silly and childish comment. Talk about not reading the room
@@EWAScotland Apologies, it was not my intent to upset the last remaining SNP voter in Scotland.
Selective amnesia.
Only jail time will stop this nonsense
i have watched loads of these and nearly all of them took part in this injustice.....not one came out with any credit
Excellent cross-examination by the Chair here
I don’t want to disrespect Mr. Beer as I think he is fantastic at uncovering the truth, but I always enjoy it when Sir Wyn decides he wants to step in. If he were my judge I’d be terrified. So should PoL investigation team.
This whole debacle happened because a big company with loads of taxpayer money decided it was easier to treat small people (postmasters) like criminals than to admit their cronies in Fujitsu were incompetent idiots selling old rope. It only happened however because there were greedy lawyers taking fees when they should have known there was a lot of questions unanswered and a load of judges sitting on their very bottoms getting paid for sleeping through courtcases where innocent people were being sent to jail and none of them had the wit or courage to stand up and say there is something very wrong with this. It won't be the last however, the HMRC, BBC, FCA, and big banks and Royal Mail act in the same way and treat ordinary law abiding citizens like dirt and get away with it because they are all scratching each others backs.
Im sure there are also tens of thousands of people that have been forced to pay for Gas/Electric that hasnt been proven to be owed!
Evrything that was good has rotted into a offal pile. Grim Britain indeed.
Unfortunately that is THE ELITIST ESTABLISHMENT, power, money and corruption.
"the BBC" wut?
There are ALWAYS greedy lawyers about. And most of them have no conscience when there’s easy money to be had.
This man seems particularly evil to me.
Even now, he shows zero sign of any empathy, respect, or compassion for the innocent people who he pummeled into the ground, and who's souls he crushed.
He has no humanity.
That, my friends, is the sign of a truly evil person.
Paula Vennells needs a LONG prison term over this.
VERY LONG
A theft occurs where someone, dishonesty appropriates,property of another ,with the intention of permanently depriving the other of it. The post office investigators ,seen clueless when challenged but we're in their element when bullying postmasters
I have watched most of these meetings and not one person from the post office and Fujitsu have told anything that resembles the truth.
Yet another person who needs to be in jail for many, many years. So corrupt and useless.
Which is worse, that a whole bunch of people would throw their staff under the bus like this, or that they really were that incompetent?
I'm not sure which answer I like less.
If this isn't criminal incompetence ---- then criminal incompetence doesn't exist.
It was vindictiveness, not incompetence.
What's even worse. Its said that the post office showed increased profits in their end of year sccounts. But was in fact the payments demanded from the sub postmasters to cover the alleged false shortages.
The judge and jury was more than happy to convict people without any evidence
What I say too.
There was no jury! These people were forced to admit false accounting or theft. They weren’t given a choice and because they admitted it, there wasn’t a jury trial, just sentencing.
@@stetomlinson3146Sorry mate, google it, "were any of the subpostmaters tried by jury". Final. I cant keep correcting experts in the field.
@@stetomlinson3146
Liar😂😂😂
@@richardgallagher4880 OK, some had jury trials but many pleaded guilty, so the case was never heard by one.
No thought given at all to the victims, fueled by greed of large bonuses.
This was the first time they actually told someone their testimony didn’t add up…I wondered when they were finally going to start calling people on the carpet…
I heard an interview with a convicted post mistress who was told by a PO investigator that ;
'I'm ex CID and I've come across your sort before...'
Surely this brings into question ALL of his convictions when he was CID?
I've met his sort before.
Corrupt ex coppers...
It will come out in the report. The judge (technically "chair") Sir Wyn, is absorbing all of the lies deceit and "forgotten" stuff.
Yes, this questioning does seem too soft at crucial times.
I don’t think thats true. Look at Mr Singhs hearing. Its a clusterfuck and there is are many moments where the questioner asked: is that what we have come to now? And one moment the chairman points out that Mr. Singhs just clearly gave away that he was lying in his witness statement.
There are other lawyers in the room (reps of postmasters for instance) like Edward Henry KC who have been tougher and more accusative. Just Not Beer, Blake and Price, who are where they are because they can stay calm and objective at all times and who have a slightly different agenda.
I can't believe the stupidity of these Post Office investigators. They're just a bunch of idiotic debt collectors. Except in this case, there were no debts to collect. I live close to the village of Broughton near Preston, Lancashire. There used to be a Post Office there until the sub-postmasters were convicted because of this debacle.The people at the top are ultimately responsible and should be jailed.
Ed Davey.
I think I'll choose to read an awful lot into the questions being asked here .
Absolutely disgusted by this whole affair. And to realise this has happened in the UK should be a wake up call to us all
The scales were deliberately fixed short measures for all.The judges must discuss this and bring their own case against this band of thieves . Manslaughter is also to be considered.People took their own life.Under the pressures put upon them.
He got his job by falsifying his CV... He put his wife's qualification down as his own. He says he only realised when preparing his statement for this latest inquiry... WTF....! And he is a senior Investigator. And he is still employed by the post office.. if he is dishonest enough to lie on his CV he is not trust worthy
I find those responses absolutely astonishing, disrespectful, incompetent, and a whole string of words I haven't yet thought of. How can he sit there and give evidence like that!!! Unbelievably poor performance.
I would love to know what qualifications these so called investigators had. Based on my own personal experience, I am flabergasted with the disturbingly poor investigation and it screams that these people had, in reality no proper experience in training or background in proper investigative procedures.
The phrase 'lying little sh*t' springs to mind.
It’s not just the Post Office as an entity that should be paying significant compensation to the countless victims. People like this guy, who destroyed peoples lives through his narrow-mindedness, vindictiveness and incompetence, should also be stuck with a life-destroying bill, if not jail time to boot. Let’s see how he likes it when the shoe is on the other foot.
This, a man who plagiarised his wife’s CV.
Absolutely shameless individual, sounds familiar in history: “ I was only following orders”, somehow these characters need to be held to account!!!!
They stood over people, with no real legal reason to do so and demand they pay money they didn't owe with the threat of charging them with something they didn't do.
This happened in New York years ago.
They were called The Mafia.
It was obvious to the public, as it was first reported, that it was extremely unlikely that so many postmasters would suddenly turn into criminals, coincidently with the introduction of new sales/accounting software. But, as usual, there was a lot about how government related businesses went about their business at that time that stank. It still does. If the software was getting the sums wrong, then to get the books to balance, the management, including ministers in the end analysis, must have conspired to 'cook the books'. It could not be any other way.
He was due a bonus for all 'theft' that he found. He was incentivised to 'prove' money was stolen. If he discovered that no money was missing and that the Horizon system was faulty, he got no commission.
"If any person lawfully sworn as a witness or as an interpreter in a judicial proceeding wilfully makes a statement material in that proceeding, which he knows to be false or does not believe to be true, he shall be guilty of perjury, and shall, on conviction thereof on indictment, be liable to penal servitude for a term not exceeding seven years."
There's no evidence that the post masters were guilty, but the computer said they are. So that's ok then is it? Sounds about right as far as the competence (or lack there of) of the post office managers as they cover their collective rears.
Their not all down the pub celebrating their 'finders fee' bonus's now are they.
Let’s see basically we have thousands of postmasters and postmistresses on average stealing £25000 resulting in at least £25Million missing and not one penny found or have I got it wrong.
And his performance bonus he got should be clawed back.
But false accounting doesn’t explain where the actual money went! Did it? If it was a computer error ( which we now know it was) that would explain that there never was in fact ant theft by the SPM from the PO WOULDNT IT.
Or did they steal the money and blame the SPMs?
Been watching these. Too much 'I don't recall' and trying to wriggle out of blame, not answering the questions. They don't realise it's quite obvious when they are lying. We can see right through them. Why couldn't they see the good character of those being accused? A bunch of thick, self-important thugs. Yes, I really felt for Mrs Holmes who faced this with dignity and had to watch and listen to all this crap! At least R Grant tried to apologise today (Quarm). Very low calibre staff who I wouldn't want to meet on a dark night. What a shower of sh ...t!
Pressured into admitting a crime he didn't commit in order to avoid a jail sentence. Bullies. Henchmen.
Same tactics used by a certain group in New York years ago.
They were called The Mafia.
A true comparison. Using your henchmen to demand people hand over money they don't owe in order to avoid a consequence.
Henchmen is beginning to sound like the right term.
If I can add, I watched the whole of his testament. Judging by his demeanor and lack of responsibility it didn’t surprise me when he revealed he had used his wife’s CV when applying for the post. !!!!!!
... compounded by the failure of Post Office's failure to check the validity of the info within, which would surely be the usual due diligence in any organisation's recruitment process?
@@philipwardle6820 Complete failure all round by the PO
Given that he did that, was he an actual qualified investigator with the proper authority to question people under caution and make accusations of criminal activity. Or was he just a thug standing over people like the Mafia in New York.
It was too obvious that although Peter Holmes knew there was no actual shortfall , his victim was coerced to falsely admit false accounting to avoid the Post Office from accepting their liability. The criminal blaming and punishing the victim .!And to only now after so many years , being forced to admit by default their known culpability is incredible . All those who knowingly did this should face justice in a criminal court .
Someone needs to pay for all the lies.....People have died
What boggles my mind with all these aggressive investigators is that they seemed to have no accounting skills or undertake any form of forensic accounting to match paper records with those of the computer in an effort to identify the cause of each shortfall! Instead, they presumed guilt and then used illegitimate legal threats to pressure innocent people into admitting to crimes they didn't commit. It's hard to think of a greater failure to discharge one's duties, let alone the sheer moral bankruptcy of the whole investigatory operation.
Correctly and eruditely put Sir. 👏👏
Because, clearly, they were bully-boy "enforcers" and did no investigation whatsoever.
What's missing from the enquiry is the questioning over the 'missing entry'. If money had been stolen, that would have come from cash paid in, say by people using the post office as a bank, from money received from the government for paying out to the public, or from the sale of stocks, etc. Money doesn't just appear out of fresh air. No investigator ever looked at the other side of the transaction. They were not investigators, an investigator would have done that.
@paulbrindley7640 absolutely correct. These people would best be described as mob "enforcers" whose job was to intimidate the sub-postmasters to extract payment. They had no interest (nor ability) to conduct forensic financial analysis, just hired muscle.
At....1.20 seconds ....the silence already says a lot........like everyone else involved ....never seen selected memory loss like it .....
That wasn't memory loss, that was a realisation that he'd sent innocent people to prison and ruined people's lives for his own greed.
Don't worry though, I'm not sticking up for him.
He's still a total piece of trash in my eyes.
After all of this time, I cannot believe anybody from the Post Office or Fujitsu hasn’t found the cause of these errors. From viewing the documentary and the TV show what were Fujitsu staff adjusting when using remote access? Surely there is an audit trail in the system that had to be signed off on a regular basis. I hope that one recommendation out of this inquiry is to remove the Post Office being a law unto themselves. All prosecutions should be though the legal system supported by evidence.
Fujitsu have admitted there were 29 bugs in Horizon.