You have two primary options: Sell components with common or generic connectors, and leave it to the customer to replace the connectors on their bike to match. The problem is that, if it turns out the customer over-estimated their capabilities, you are stuck with a huge support issue for an endless variety of bikes and wiring. I know when I did my RadMini, there was no one to turn to, and I had to pretty much build the wiring harness from scratch. The other option is to make the kit complete: motor, controller, display, throttle, PAS sensor, and wiring harness. They just strip their bike and put your already tuned components in, and the only variables are the dropout spacing, lighting and brake cutoff connections, and the length of the harness. By the way, the FarDriver controller is turning into a hot option for many builders, and it uses one large plug for all connections except the phase wires a power inputs. It's used in the 60+mph Spark Cycleworks Javelin, and the 10,000 watt 60mph Ego minibike of Rik Codero from RunPlayBack.
Take a page out of the PC power supply market, go Modular. Standardize the output connectors on the controller, customers could kit out the controller based on what they have. But keep in mind you will need a flexible controller software that can be modified to support different magnet counts, voltage and other parameters to have a smooth running motor.
I am having same issue with upgrading or mod various ebikes. Even the frequency of signals are not the same even with the same connectors. Had issues finding compatible throttles and cadence sensor as connectors matched but signal does not
The struggle is real brother. All of us DIY e-bike builders have known it for a long time. You just got to learn how to solder heat shrink And be prepared Make costly mistakes😅
I used to hate soldering but now I don't mind it so much anymore, I think the bigger problem is knowing the names of the connectors and where to get them..
Ran into this recently. My Ancheer e-bike battery was getting crappy range and I went to get a new battery with more amp hours. Same size outer case, brackets,etc. but the terminals were a different configuration even though it’s from the same company only a year later. Hopefully the e-bike industry will learn from the cordless power tool industry and make some one size fits all parts. I’m dreading rewiring the new battery. Love the peel outs in your video!
Used to be back in 2017-2020 things were interchangeable. There were similarity between stuff. You just said you can’ t imagine the manufactures are doing that but I do. It’s all proprietary now. The old Bolton bikes used to have solutions to make improvements I have a 2018 RadMini with Bolton’s replacement real 750w hub. All sorts of stuff as on line. Now no more. Good video prime topic sadly not much we can do.
I remember being able to go into radio shack and say I’m trying to wire this to that and we’d go through drawers and drawers of adapters to find the right fit. That’s what we need - a big adapter kit. Also, I just got back from a trail ride which is my main interest, and my bike clearly needs more torque for the hills. My controller is 23 amps while my son’s is 28, and he just leaves me behind all day long despite my bigger battery. It’d be nice to be able to just update the controller for a bit more power. Adding a front wheel motor honestly doesnt make sense to me because when climbing the dirt trails all the weight is on the back wheel.
Let’s see if I can explain this right! You come up with an upgraded part, with out a connector. Now, you come up with a great solution to connect your part to an existing bike part motor wire, battery wire etc. then you sell your connector (male& female) with your upgraded part to complete the installation..the customer will have to cut the wire end of the existing part and install your new connector to add your upgraded part. Hopefully if successful the new bike industry will catch on and start using your great new electric wire connection as an industry standard. Not only will you sell your better part but create a better way to install it to an existing bike. In conclusion not only offering better aftermarket technology but also providing a more reliable alternative to connecting your upgrades to existing bike parts. THE CITIZEN CONNECTOR!! Tc from Nevada
Very thoughtful and interesting. The only solution(s) that seem possible are an add on as you've done or a replacement kit.especially as new versions flood the market (and probably disappear) continuously. Maybe as individuals get stuck with non-working bikes they can't get parts for, your solution(s) will become more viable. BTW, I de-wired a recent conversion by removing 30" lengths of wire from both motor and display to controller, but needed to solder about 15 small wires to do it.
The only two options you’ll have are either create proprietary parts, or make adapters. Also, on that Citizen you didn’t need two displays or two throttles. You only need to run the signal wire from second controller throttle output to engage your front setup. Also, you can run both batteries in parallel to double your range with a splitter. That’ll reduce wiring and complexity. However, if you want real speed and a decent profit, you’ll need to enter the 72v realm. If you run proprietary parts, you choose the connectors you want to use in your kits. Powerful Lithium does this with their custom batteries & they are building some of the best in the world. E-bike Guy down here in Central FL builds his own batteries. His 8kw diy mtn bike topped out at 105mph. I’m in the middle of three builds (2ebike one scooter): 8kw single motor (QS273), Fardriver 961800 track version controller, Molicel P42A battery Dual 3500w motors, dual Fardriver 72120 controllers, Molicel P42A battery Scooter dual 5kw motors, dual Fardriver 7250 controllers, Molicel P42A battery. The above should yield a top speed north of 55-100mph. The Molicel is the most energy dense cell to use for batteries & have the least voltage sag. Fardriver controllers make the most power. QS motors are the only hub motors to handle that much power. For mid drive motors, the closest in that category is the Sotion FW11. Keep in mind the aftermarket is always a very tiny community of enthusiasts who may not be necessarily interested in your products. Leaf Bike & a few other shops are finding this out the hard way as they don’t really offer anything high powered. Granted, not everyone wants super high power, but an ebike traveling under 40mph becomes numb and old quickly. Hence why a lot of people want to go faster than the class 3 regulation of 28mph. I also believe keeping up with traffic is safer and you’re less likely to be hit since you are more visible at a similar speed to traffic. Just a few thoughts to consider.
Thanks for all the info. on my bike I actually prefer separate batteries separate throttle separate display screens I find it much safer, the front wheel is never accidentally activated. I would never ever combine throttles. I think the aftermarket for a very high powered e-bikes is probably pretty small, but for folks who just want to increase to like a 35 amp controller for their average e-bike I think that aftermarket's actually pretty big. But thank you for all your ideas and input!!
You might consider producing torque arms for these bikes. I have purchased two torque arms (from a very reputable company) and one of them was so sloppy that I ended up having an axle spin-out even with the torque arm installed. So something like that might be useful for these stronger e-bikes. Having had two axle spin-outs I can tell that they are not fun nor are they a cheap event.
you need 1 controler and 1 diplay to power both front and rear motors 60volt would be nice not 2 different systems you know this allready like your website watch you tube all the time alot of good innovation in ebilke world 40mph and longer range is always welcome dont for get torque 40mph seems to be the sweet spot for ebikes and e-mopeds
Every build has been a FWD iteration from the previous build’s. I too still have my first project ebikes laying around. You’ve traveled pretty good & far for a self identified layman 👍🏼.
@@CitizenCycle925 I think you have the youth and energy to build a screamer 😉. Nothing like the adrenaline rush from a build that scares the bejesus out of ya !
I like what you are doing and thinking. Your knowledge is of help, such as: Do those spoke wheels hold up well or do them start wobbling from the stress of the motoring? But spoke wheels are the platform for front-wheel drive... and then, for coasting, what direct-drive motor would you choose? The geared motors have more drag, true? How easy can we install our own torque-sensor? Etc. Maybe I should check out your website. Thanks. PS- I'm impressed with the step-through Heybike folding, 24-inch wheels, spoked. Good platform I say, not really for racing, just pleasure adventure. Otherwise Vitalan folding. I think Heybike has better support?
Sometimes the connectors don't match because the component just use different standards, power, communication etc. As far as I see in the endless-sphere forum, there are even different throttles (not just connectors, shapes but how they work). In the "upgrading a controller" case, even if everything matches but batterry isn't powerful enough, it's going to be an issue. So maybe DIY is not everybody's or every beginner's thing. I think while this "issue" can be fixed somewhat in future, we may not see a plug-and-play for everything, it's just not seem to be possible for each combination. Or... the "connector" problem would be 100% solved but you'd still need to check everything is compatible or it wouldn't work, or worse, something would fry.
I just got done emailing you back on your update for the warp drive and And saw this video. I was just thinking to myself that after I installing the warp drive I would probably want to upgrade my stock Rear controller to match the front.👍🏼👍🏼. But As you were saying connector issues would be an issue for the variety of bikes out there?? 🤔 . Making it standard for all bikes is going to be a challenge whether you need a adapter plug or something I wish you the best and look forward to what you come up with.. I'm down either way .Keep up the Good Work👍🏼
I think it's time for Citizen Performance to step into the breach and throw down the gauntlet. It's time for the Citizen Performance Bike! A 72v monster but still a bike that is BUILT to be modded. Need help? I'm available if you are serious🍻
I do think whoever creates a 72 volt bike that actually looks like a bicycle is going to sell a lot of them. probably won't be me though, not ready for that yet
I would love to have standardized wire harnesses. I worry about this when needing to replace components. I wonder if there is a way to release with no connectors and provide the connectors separately.
Same thing is happening in EV cars and trucks.. everything is proprietary. Sucks for right to repair or modify anything. IMHO I would pick the few best selling ebikes and build for modifying them and then slowly expand to others. Especially with the new tariffs in place, things might slow down in the near term unfortunately. Good luck and keep the great info coming!
I love my aventon aventure and honestly I actually pedal so it doesn't "NEED" more power but who doesn't WANT more power. My biggest beef with it, is the lack of user adjust-ability of the pedal assist levels. I have the 1.0 version with the cadence sensor. If you have ever ridden in a group with other bikes, you soon realize none of them will match speeds. I am constantly tapping the brake lever to shut off motor to slow down, or pedaling past the cadence level to catch up. So being selfish (I realize) I would love a 35-40 amp controller and a more programmable screen to make my already pretty good bike, much better.
If you want to do a controller, You can make 2 or 3 common adapter harnesses for some common bikes. Or you can offer 2 or 3 different controllers for different bikes. When I say common, I mean bikes that people like to modify or bikes that are good for modifications. It will take some research, nothing too crazy but itll be some work. It would get easier once it gets rolling, and it would definitely pay off. I think it would be awesome, I think its very much needed. Its just gonna be a test of your passion and how bad you wanna break new ground within the ebike world. I can tell you, without a doubt, the community is dying for someone to do this. Obviously youre capable, you have the means, the knowledge base etc etc. Like I said, The question is, where is your heart? and how far are you willing to go?
I'd definitely like some standardized plug and play items, especially for basic utility, like headlights, blinkers and horns. One of my bikes has a great headlight with a built in horn but my primary bike has a trash headlight. I spent $49 to get a headlight upgrade but it was just a cheap $8 temu headlight with a 2 pin ebike connector soldered and electrical taped on. It's bright but it doesn't project forward, it's better for cars to see you than for you to see a dark road.
The urge to increase power natural but it is also what will ultimately bring the regulatory hammer down. All it takes is one or two viral stories of a ebike running into an old lady or something and the public and politicians will pick up that narrative and be talking about licenses, insurance, tags, or even bans.
YEAH I got Bafang, Kunteng, Jauo Pay and a bunchof other stuff hardly anything is compatable.... the last thing you see before a bafang hub motor fries an expencive KT display is it going 40MPH pushing the bike out the front door
I’m thinking about just going for the whole deal including the rear wheel and motor so I’ve got usable bike. The way this thing is now it’s so aggravating when you drive it. But that would solve my problem with just putting a whole new system on the bike.
They should have em all standardized. It’s almost like planned obsolescence by manufacturers. Or some are seeking a competitive advantage in a popular ebike movement. Your build is awesome, I’d love an ebike that makes the tires squeal. When I bought my first e-bike( Lectric xp 2.0)…I was like, how do i make this go faster? 25mph was not enough and slow hill climbing… This year i sold it. Now I want something faster that has customer service that was as good as Lectric. I could get something fast off Baba or Aliexpress…but I’m pretty sure it would have no support or parts support. So now I’m looking at branded models that have support even though they all come from the same country ( china) and the US branded models just slap a sticker with their brand name on them. But it would be nice to have swappable standard parts that for sure.
If your up to it, or if not hire an electrical person to do it, but put in some time doing research on all those connections, as most controllers, motors, displays, etc have alot of the same connections on their PCBs, even if the wiring harnesses, connectors vary widely, but after doing that, find a manuf/distributor to make the most common to start and sell them at a major premium... People would buy them just to save themselves the hassle and its not price gouging (although some will say that, inevitably) as you took the initiative as well as did the R&D. I think youd rake it in and once all the research/manuf vendors were sorted, itd be alot simpler than shipping in batt pks. Its a heck of alot at the start no doubt but the payoff might be outstanding as your kindve the first, I think? Just my 2C
My Fabulous havac x2 the headlight horn stopped working I opened the controller box and found 2 small wires disconnected but they were like soderd in I think I wish there was a fuse box type plugin for all e bikes
Pick one bike first . If you make a 45 or 50 amp controller for my freedom I would buy it right away . Once you take care of that then choose another model that can take advantage of the upgrade. If pre-orders will make it more feasible then do it that way. I'm sure if after you do a couple runs any supplier will be glad to supply a small number with a certain type of plug for a certain bike. Thanks for all your good work.
I originally bought the first version, sold it and bought a 2023 version. So mine still has a 40 amp controller. I wonder how much difference the 5 amps really makes?
Anyone who's modded their E-bike, or e-build will no doubt (as I have) have controllers laying around that did not match up when arrived... It can be a nightmare modding them to go faster at times. I got there in the end, but it cost me a small fortune 😅
if the connectors are the only thing holding you back, you can research making in-line adapter converters which might let you use controllers and hubs with different connectors together. make sure also the motors accept the rating output of the controllers to not burn out the motors either.
Hey, I'm a new subscriber, and looks like you know a lot about Ebike, I have a question I bought Ebike on Amazon Hiboy p6 fat tire, and I wonder if you know how to increase the power on it. Thanks.
Plug-n-play is a bit difficult due to the sheer number of e-bikes out there and the moving target represented by the constant stream of new models. I think having standardized connectors is basically impossible. That said, the actual motors and controllers are fairly standardized in terms of control and power wires. There are only a few types of motors and it seems like many controllers can be configured to handle almost anything, at least as long as the voltage is compatible. Even if the connectors are not. This puts wiring squarely in the realm of the enthusiast. One need various wire sizes, sheathing, heat shrink, good wire strippers, proper ratcheting crimpers, random connector kits, a soldering iron, a heat gun. It's quite a list. Stuff I just have on the shelf, but most people will only have some of it. Not enough to make a proper job of it. There is also the problem of all the cable lengths all being different for each model, never mind the incompatible connectors on the ends! Supplying a universal kit with adapters for different connector ends has its own problems due to the sheer number of combinations as well and your inability to test complete systems for all e-bikes. -- This is a conundrum. Perhaps the solution is to leverage the enthusiast crowd. Supply two types of kits: #1 - What you are doing now where the kit is model-specific and basically just plug-n-play. Something most people can install without tons of tools. #2 - An "enthusiast/DIY" kit for people with electrical skills and don't mind investigating additonal parts themselves. This kit supplies the devices and cables like #1, except the cables are long enough for any bike and the cables only have one connector (loose wires on the other side). That connector being into the equipment you supply. Then the enthusiast needs to get the proper connector kit for whatever the other-end gets plugged into, cut the wiring to size, solder, heat shrink, etc themselves. Once an enthusiast does #2 and tests it, knowing it works, they can email you with pictures and the precise length they cut the cable to and the connector adapter they used. If you choose, you can then supply a #1 kit for that specific e-bike instead of a #2 kit. That all said, you would still need a way to verify that the cables you are supplying will actually work, which can be a bit of a show-stopper. And its a lot more work on your-end to make a business like this work. Still, I think being able to leverage the enthusiast community might be the key. -Matt
Citizen - pick 2 or 3 manufacturers who will deal with you. Sell mods for those bikes. Too many bikes out there anyway. Your fans will go with one of those brands and wait for your mods. I’m riding an Aventon and ready to upgrade. Keep the faith. I’ll get what you can mod.
Can you start off with the bike that you already have done like the Himiway? And build from there. I believe that you have everything to add the controller for the Himiway already and if so start there.
gee - I see several good ideas for options here. :O ok my favoto step thru flurry 2.0 has a 22 amp controller and my other is a fearless step over with a 20 amp controller - both have bafang 750 watt hub motors and 48v 14A batteries. they are a year apart in age 2022 on the fearless & 2023 on the flurry the step thru (flurry) seems to go better [both are set to 20A cur] with the same settings, but different controllers and displays my thought is to get at least a 28A controller and the correct display for it. (?) might need to replace the wire harness as who knows what they used? thankfully the motors are as standard as bafang are going to be. & both are cadence sensors. Im a bit different and would like to see my power increase in the low torque for easier steep hill climbing. 16 to 20 mph would be a fine top speed for my ebikes. I want gravel road & trail torque. might be great to have a kit with wires loose and I could install the connectors that are compatible for my ebike (?) or might it be better to replace the complete wire harness? if the ends are not connected? then I can cut it to the right length for the ebike. then connect it/complete it myself so its to my liking. Im with others in suggesting a complete kit with the controller, display and an unfinished wire harness that we can trim to fit our ebikes. of course Id get a controller upgrade "If" it made the difference in low end torque Im looking for. Iam still waiting to buy the wired cruiser or an ecells step star, but neither may be what want. as for me I want to go low n slow, the top end speed is not something that interests me. [I avoid public roads] to get what suits me, I may have to build it. :O
Yeah I asked a question maybe a week ago but I forgot the episode. I have an e-bike made by the company SAMEBIKE. I ordered one delivered to Osaka Japan. The lady told me a lie and said the bike had a throttle. Long story short. The bike only has a torque sensor. Their engineering team told me it's impossible to change the controller and add a throttle. My question is, is it impossible to change the controller and add a throttle? I will remember this episode and check back. Thanks in advance. Kind wishes, Edward
ADAPTORS! Maybe what is needed is a comprehensive kit of plug adaptors, connection adaptors. I wonder how many adaptor types you could find just by searching for adaptors? You come up with a universal adaptor set, What you can't find, you might create. This might require stripping wires going into connectors & soldering those wires.
You should develop interfaces/plugs between existing wire plug types and your plug type. It's a new market that doesn't exist. Order the minimum quantities of each type and see how it sells...
So I can get generic parts I have to mess with all sorts of places, including Amazon. If I was going to buy after market parts from someone like you I would expect them to be better than what I can just pick up from other places. With that said, it dosnt have to be 100% plug and play. Most of the people buying this stuff are reasonably competent. What I would do is make sure that the plugs on your controller for example all have the same ports for the same items across all controllers you would sell. One standard battery connector, one standard throttle connector, etc. I would then make adapter cables for the most common plug types to sell as addons. I know there are endless options and you cant stock everything, but I am also guessing there are probably only a hand full of battery connectors. Yeah, you will never be able to get them all, but maybe you could get 70% off all battery possibilities with 5 or 10 different adapter cables.
Dude, if you could just come up with plug and play adapters that you could plug in to join the 2 non matching ends you would make good money. I ñeed a set now. I have a bike that came from the factory in AWD, (E Cells). Sell a kit like that, one which is pŕoduced for AWD.
Just stick with the front wheel kit for now, even if the price goes up to like 1500 bucks you will still sell all of them I believe easily. It's a pain in the butt to try to find all the parts and if someone else does all the work it's worth the extra money. There is no reason to even think about the standardization of the plugs that is never going to happen. I can't wait to get a hold of one of your front hub wheel Motors please get those going again
Too bad there isn’t a catalog that shows every connector for every component on every e-bike. Then you can just include the needed adapters with each kit you sell. I think as you figure out how to find your niche, working out the different connectors and how to make these components work, you are going to tap into a huge market and opportunity! I can see you selling up to 1000 kits a day.
Sadly I'm pretty sure you'll have to have a ton of adapter cables. The only thing you can control is what connectors you use. I would love to see a 1500 watt continuous rear motor, 45 amp controller and display.
Needs to be replacement controllers just for the rear and no front motor that gives 5 mph increases. Just a rear motor to go from 35-40 plus. No dual motor and no dual display
Create a kit with a 40 amp or so controller and that kit will be specific for the connector for the rear motor. Your kit will include the wiring harness throttle, head light light and display along with the crank sensor if needed. I’ve got a Wallke H6ST that is just anemic. The factory controller is garbage the bike hesitates like crazy even with the replacement controller, it’s really no better. Come on I’ll send you a pic of the outbound wire on the motor and I’ll replace everything else if you can make it work. Let’s go!
I think you're right. if I did any kind of rear wheel kit it would need display, controller, throttle, wiring harness, and possibly lighting all in one package
Maybe start with a complete kit rear wheel kit that can replace the old wiring harness the old display the old connector for the control box complete with everything that's probably the best way to do it and it's not much more money because the different wiring harnesses make it very difficult so get a standard wiring harness that can be used in your kit instead of trying to adopt to all the different wiring harnesses out there which probably is going to be impossible to do something that will work on 48 volt and 52 volt and something that can be adapted to 60 and 72 volt poor future use
Can you do a a real high-powered e-bike build? Maybe stealth bomber frame qs direct drive motor 72 volt with a fardriver controller Just want to see how they compare to the high-powered geared dual motor bikes
lol chop em all and go back to spade/lug old school - give em bare wires and let em chop their wires to match but what you can do is standardize your own interface and just add dumb adapters; connectors themselves aren't expensive so they don't add much to the cost. Someone recently did that for power tools - they made an interface and a generic battery pack, so you do have to add the adapter to each power tool per manufacturer but you can thereafter use the generic pack for any tool that has an adapter. the bonus is that they added features to the packs like onboard charging and USB A out for people to charge devices with, so if you have added features that are gained with your controller then more people are apt to have interest. If you're after a generic controller just to make your life easier, remember it's not a product... Making parts for current ebikes is kind of a tight market; lots of people in the space and it's well along the race to the bottom so profits are already shrinking. The right thing to do is just take the leap and make a 100% domestically sourced/built product, then all the features other companies don't want to put in are options for us to add. This can also get us ahead of all the ebike legislation that's piling up and coming down the pipeline because we're local and that gives us agility to respond and turn around feature adds quickly. Imagine being able to order with granularity your own configuration and have it not be upcharged 300% because of tariffs, shipping/cartage, etc. That's possible if I don't have to be on calls all the time with multiple countries who are supplying us, and the latency between fixes to deploy in our local markets have always been a sore point with me. It's cheaper to do it locally as well; if you can't run a sweatshop anymore (Foxconn, Cor-Tek, etc), you won't save that money, so there's no real value in offshoring it. If anything, I'd go with Taiwan because they're far and away ahead of the planet in their infrastructure for PEV - up to and including public battery swap programs so you don't even have to charge your PEV, you just deposit your battery and it gives you a fresh one, all at roadside kiosks throughout the cities Even the batteries themselves are self-tracking and have connectivity, so it makes the process super fast as all the components recognize each other and simply *work* - you tell it you're there, it opens a door, you push the battery in the hole, hole closes, it verifies the battery, another door opens up and it pushes the fresh one, also tracked, part way out the door so you can see which one is yours without having to look at all. But with Pinion's new MGU and things like downtube motors (Fauza) or harmonic pin drives (TQ) or non-IGH gearboxes (Enviolo extreme), et al, there are a lot of opportunities to wisely buy the best components available and make those builds available at what seems like a ridiculous cost but was mostly achieved by using *less* and pulling large chunks of complexity out of the design. I'm also working on a frame design for travel bikes that will assist people getting into it as the last stage of unfolding - doubly value add because it also lets them basically walk into the bike instead of having to step over (even a low slung travel bike will be hard for some people, if the frame folds orthogonally from the typical then it can actually be resting on the ground before being snapped into the last place). There are no new problems and as far as I can tell the ebike segment really lags technology and cost vectors of many other industries/products...spent over 25 years developing/deploying/sustaining advanced technologies, now I'm bored. Find me a new problem ;-)
How about people send you their controller and you update them and send them back? I keep burning up the controller on my CSC electric bike for some reason, the company won’t warranty them they just sell me a new one.
I don't think connector standardization is going to happen. It would be great, but it is just wishful thinking. If I understood things correctly, then you are considering 3 options regarding controller upgrades: 1...Sell controller and let customers figure out connecting it. 2...Sell controllers that are designed to fit specific bikes. 3...Sell controller and stock the many different adaptors needed to cover the majority of bikes. To me, option 1 seems like the worst of the three. It doesn't add anything new to the market. People that are capable of connecting your controller could have done the same with the many other controllers that are currently available on eBay and Amazon. Option 2 may be the most viable. It would require doing market research to determine sales figures for major brands and models, but your workload is mostly up front with market research and part sourcing for the kits. It is a more limited total market, but you get to ship things that normally will be hassle free for both the customer and yourself. This also let's you choose appropriate bikes that are capable of handling the upgrade. Otherwise you will have to deal with unhappy people that thought their little 10 amp hour battery would be no problem with your 40 amp controller. Option 3 seems like a lot of work to me. It will be a lot of work stocking and shipping the many different adaptors needed. Customers will feel frustrated trying to figure out what they need. They will want you to hold their hand, and you will get endless questions. It would be a very useful resource for people, but it sounds awful for you, Citizen.
The best way would be your own kit your own wiring harness where you can add on things like lights and everything else but have your controller your display that basically all standard that would be the best way to do it and have different wheel sizes 2024 and 26 you can have a couple different controllers that can be different sizes that will make things very simple it will cost a little bit more but it's simple for the person that's buying it
An octopus adapter...(Yours)-1 to many for the most prevalent in your mind ... I'm imagining one of those phone charger power plugs with micro USB, mini, lightning etc
You need to build/offer a complete bike with upgradable/optional parts from the start. I bet there would be PLENTY of business for you to make a good profit.
@@CitizenCycle925 you know more about it than I do, just offer the top trim then. I know I want a faster e-bike than I have now. Minimum 40 mph even 50(or faster) would be cool with me too
I have found that ebikes have another downside that is kind of a pain.. And that is the relative cost of the new battery compared to the entire bike itself. When a battery wears out and needs replacement or you long for that full power you had when the battery is new, then you are faced with a decision to make. Do I sink $500+ more dollars for a quality battery into this 2-4 year old bike or buy one of the new bikes? Now that there are better models on the market, You feel you are throwing money away putting a new battery on an old bike when a new bike can be had for an affordable price. This is unlike a non electric bike that you might keep for 10-20 years and tweak a little bit here and there and still get the same performance.
I enjoy your videos, but I am not interested in dual motors or FWD. Fast acceleration doesn't interest me either. Top speed does, and long-range is even more important to me. I'm not surprised you are finding so many different wiring connectors. Like you I doubt it's on purpose, they use whatever they have available when building these bikes.
This is a great time to get into the business and help shape the direction(s) e-bikes take. They're only going to get better and faster. I love it.
Citizen Cycle is EVOLVING! Your a builder !
You have two primary options: Sell components with common or generic connectors, and leave it to the customer to replace the connectors on their bike to match. The problem is that, if it turns out the customer over-estimated their capabilities, you are stuck with a huge support issue for an endless variety of bikes and wiring. I know when I did my RadMini, there was no one to turn to, and I had to pretty much build the wiring harness from scratch. The other option is to make the kit complete: motor, controller, display, throttle, PAS sensor, and wiring harness. They just strip their bike and put your already tuned components in, and the only variables are the dropout spacing, lighting and brake cutoff connections, and the length of the harness.
By the way, the FarDriver controller is turning into a hot option for many builders, and it uses one large plug for all connections except the phase wires a power inputs. It's used in the 60+mph Spark Cycleworks Javelin, and the 10,000 watt 60mph Ego minibike of Rik Codero from RunPlayBack.
Thank you so much for the input we'll see where this goes. I had not heard of the fardriver yet I'll have to check into that
Take a page out of the PC power supply market, go Modular. Standardize the output connectors on the controller, customers could kit out the controller based on what they have. But keep in mind you will need a flexible controller software that can be modified to support different magnet counts, voltage and other parameters to have a smooth running motor.
I am having same issue with upgrading or mod various ebikes. Even the frequency of signals are not the same even with the same connectors. Had issues finding compatible throttles and cadence sensor as connectors matched but signal does not
The struggle is real brother. All of us DIY e-bike builders have known it for a long time. You just got to learn how to solder heat shrink And be prepared Make costly mistakes😅
I used to hate soldering but now I don't mind it so much anymore, I think the bigger problem is knowing the names of the connectors and where to get them..
You're are right brother sharing is caring that is why I bought your kit for my mountain ebike
Awesome, thank you!
Ran into this recently. My Ancheer e-bike battery was getting crappy range and I went to get a new battery with more amp hours. Same size outer case, brackets,etc. but the terminals were a different configuration even though it’s from the same company only a year later. Hopefully the e-bike industry will learn from the cordless power tool industry and make some one size fits all parts. I’m dreading rewiring the new battery. Love the peel outs in your video!
That's surprising it didn't fit from the same company. battery connections are usually pretty easy though
I'm trying to go regenerative breaking . Get something from grin but it's painful man. I feel your pain.
Used to be back in 2017-2020 things were interchangeable. There were similarity between stuff. You just said you can’ t imagine the manufactures are doing that but I do. It’s all proprietary now. The old Bolton bikes used to have solutions to make improvements I have a 2018 RadMini with Bolton’s replacement real 750w hub. All sorts of stuff as on line. Now no more. Good video prime topic sadly not much we can do.
I remember being able to go into radio shack and say I’m trying to wire this to that and we’d go through drawers and drawers of adapters to find the right fit. That’s what we need - a big adapter kit.
Also, I just got back from a trail ride which is my main interest, and my bike clearly needs more torque for the hills. My controller is 23 amps while my son’s is 28, and he just leaves me behind all day long despite my bigger battery. It’d be nice to be able to just update the controller for a bit more power. Adding a front wheel motor honestly doesnt make sense to me because when climbing the dirt trails all the weight is on the back wheel.
I really like that idea!!! adapter kit, I'm going to start looking into that. great one!!!
Let’s see if I can explain this right! You come up with an upgraded part, with out a connector. Now, you come up with a great solution to connect your part to an existing bike part motor wire, battery wire etc. then you sell your connector (male& female) with your upgraded part to complete the installation..the customer will have to cut the wire end of the existing part and install your new connector to add your upgraded part. Hopefully if successful the new bike industry will catch on and start using your great new electric wire connection as an industry standard. Not only will you sell your better part but create a better way to install it to an existing bike. In conclusion not only offering better aftermarket technology but also providing a more reliable alternative to connecting your upgrades to existing bike parts. THE CITIZEN CONNECTOR!! Tc from Nevada
Very thoughtful and interesting. The only solution(s) that seem possible are an add on as you've done or a replacement kit.especially as new versions flood the market (and probably disappear) continuously. Maybe as individuals get stuck with non-working bikes they can't get parts for, your solution(s) will become more viable. BTW, I de-wired a recent conversion by removing 30" lengths of wire from both motor and display to controller, but needed to solder about 15 small wires to do it.
Complete replacement kit is a good idea, I like that for when your bike completely dies or if you just want to upgrade your working bike
I think you're right. I'll have to check through his videos. Thanks
The only two options you’ll have are either create proprietary parts, or make adapters. Also, on that Citizen you didn’t need two displays or two throttles. You only need to run the signal wire from second controller throttle output to engage your front setup. Also, you can run both batteries in parallel to double your range with a splitter. That’ll reduce wiring and complexity. However, if you want real speed and a decent profit, you’ll need to enter the 72v realm. If you run proprietary parts, you choose the connectors you want to use in your kits. Powerful Lithium does this with their custom batteries & they are building some of the best in the world. E-bike Guy down here in Central FL builds his own batteries. His 8kw diy mtn bike topped out at 105mph. I’m in the middle of three builds (2ebike one scooter):
8kw single motor (QS273), Fardriver 961800 track version controller, Molicel P42A battery
Dual 3500w motors, dual Fardriver 72120 controllers, Molicel P42A battery
Scooter dual 5kw motors, dual Fardriver 7250 controllers, Molicel P42A battery.
The above should yield a top speed north of 55-100mph. The Molicel is the most energy dense cell to use for batteries & have the least voltage sag. Fardriver controllers make the most power. QS motors are the only hub motors to handle that much power. For mid drive motors, the closest in that category is the Sotion FW11.
Keep in mind the aftermarket is always a very tiny community of enthusiasts who may not be necessarily interested in your products. Leaf Bike & a few other shops are finding this out the hard way as they don’t really offer anything high powered. Granted, not everyone wants super high power, but an ebike traveling under 40mph becomes numb and old quickly. Hence why a lot of people want to go faster than the class 3 regulation of 28mph. I also believe keeping up with traffic is safer and you’re less likely to be hit since you are more visible at a similar speed to traffic.
Just a few thoughts to consider.
Thanks for all the info. on my bike I actually prefer separate batteries separate throttle separate display screens I find it much safer, the front wheel is never accidentally activated. I would never ever combine throttles.
I think the aftermarket for a very high powered e-bikes is probably pretty small, but for folks who just want to increase to like a 35 amp controller for their average e-bike I think that aftermarket's actually pretty big. But thank you for all your ideas and input!!
You might consider producing torque arms for these bikes. I have purchased two torque arms (from a very reputable company) and one of them was so sloppy that I ended up having an axle spin-out even with the torque arm installed. So something like that might be useful for these stronger e-bikes. Having had two axle spin-outs I can tell that they are not fun nor are they a cheap event.
you need 1 controler and 1 diplay to power both front and rear motors 60volt would be nice not 2 different systems you know this allready like your website watch you tube all the time alot of good innovation in ebilke world 40mph and longer range is always welcome dont for get torque 40mph seems to be the sweet spot for ebikes and e-mopeds
Just pre ordered my Furious Road Warrior Ultimate AWD 60v. Can't wait!
That will be one serious bike!! enjoy!!
Every build has been a FWD iteration from the previous build’s. I too still have my first project ebikes laying around.
You’ve traveled pretty good & far for a self identified layman 👍🏼.
Yes I've learned quite a bit over the last few years. Still a long way to go though. Perhaps a more involved custom build is in order..
@@CitizenCycle925 I think you have the youth and energy to build a screamer 😉. Nothing like the adrenaline rush from a build that scares the bejesus out of ya !
I like what you are doing and thinking. Your knowledge is of help, such as: Do those spoke wheels hold up well or do them start wobbling from the stress of the motoring? But spoke wheels are the platform for front-wheel drive... and then, for coasting, what direct-drive motor would you choose? The geared motors have more drag, true? How easy can we install our own torque-sensor? Etc. Maybe I should check out your website. Thanks. PS- I'm impressed with the step-through Heybike folding, 24-inch wheels, spoked. Good platform I say, not really for racing, just pleasure adventure. Otherwise Vitalan folding. I think Heybike has better support?
Sometimes the connectors don't match because the component just use different standards, power, communication etc. As far as I see in the endless-sphere forum, there are even different throttles (not just connectors, shapes but how they work). In the "upgrading a controller" case, even if everything matches but batterry isn't powerful enough, it's going to be an issue. So maybe DIY is not everybody's or every beginner's thing. I think while this "issue" can be fixed somewhat in future, we may not see a plug-and-play for everything, it's just not seem to be possible for each combination. Or... the "connector" problem would be 100% solved but you'd still need to check everything is compatible or it wouldn't work, or worse, something would fry.
I just got done emailing you back on your update for the warp drive and And saw this video. I was just thinking to myself that after I installing the warp drive I would probably want to upgrade my stock Rear controller to match the front.👍🏼👍🏼. But As you were saying connector issues would be an issue for the variety of bikes out there?? 🤔 . Making it standard for all bikes is going to be a challenge whether you need a adapter plug or something I wish you the best and look forward to what you come up with.. I'm down either way .Keep up the Good Work👍🏼
I think it's time for Citizen Performance to step into the breach and throw down the gauntlet. It's time for the Citizen Performance Bike! A 72v monster but still a bike that is BUILT to be modded. Need help? I'm available if you are serious🍻
I've built a 72v 2000w single motor, performance is great. Would be insane with AWD. Top speed with my 270 lbs is 42 all day long.
I do think whoever creates a 72 volt bike that actually looks like a bicycle is going to sell a lot of them. probably won't be me though, not ready for that yet
Duel motor 72 volts would be sweet
I been th8nking of 72 volt
Oh yeah it has arrived!!! THE WARP DRIVE BOX IS HERE....
Stock and sell the different plugs separately and sell the controllers with bare wire ends. The customer should find out which plugs they need.
It's perfect if it aint got some Frankenstein in it. I don't like it. That looks great man. I think you did a great job.
Haha it's okay for an experimenting average joe
I would love to have standardized wire harnesses. I worry about this when needing to replace components. I wonder if there is a way to release with no connectors and provide the connectors separately.
Make a 50amp controller for the wired and 20" wheel kit for them
I'm not sure about putting 20 inch wheels on a wired bike. I am considering making 24 inch wheels though, I'm working on that now
@CitizenCycle925 I'm sure alot of people would like the 24" wheels.
bring back radio shack
what can you do to give the Citizen bike more top end? that seems like the next level up for that bike
Same thing is happening in EV cars and trucks.. everything is proprietary. Sucks for right to repair or modify anything. IMHO I would pick the few best selling ebikes and build for modifying them and then slowly expand to others. Especially with the new tariffs in place, things might slow down in the near term unfortunately.
Good luck and keep the great info coming!
Clayton, NC looks so nice!
It is!
I love my aventon aventure and honestly I actually pedal so it doesn't "NEED" more power but who doesn't WANT more power. My biggest beef with it, is the lack of user adjust-ability of the pedal assist levels. I have the 1.0 version with the cadence sensor. If you have ever ridden in a group with other bikes, you soon realize none of them will match speeds. I am constantly tapping the brake lever to shut off motor to slow down, or pedaling past the cadence level to catch up. So being selfish (I realize) I would love a 35-40 amp controller and a more programmable screen to make my already pretty good bike, much better.
I want to see a citizen Rion Tronic level type build. Something bad@ss and unrivaled. 💪🏼
If you want to do a controller, You can make 2 or 3 common adapter harnesses for some common bikes. Or you can offer 2 or 3 different controllers for different bikes. When I say common, I mean bikes that people like to modify or bikes that are good for modifications. It will take some research, nothing too crazy but itll be some work. It would get easier once it gets rolling, and it would definitely pay off. I think it would be awesome, I think its very much needed. Its just gonna be a test of your passion and how bad you wanna break new ground within the ebike world. I can tell you, without a doubt, the community is dying for someone to do this. Obviously youre capable, you have the means, the knowledge base etc etc. Like I said, The question is, where is your heart? and how far are you willing to go?
Why not focus on more front motor kits? I want to know if those thorn protectors work and if they're a pain to put in.
I'd definitely like some standardized plug and play items, especially for basic utility, like headlights, blinkers and horns. One of my bikes has a great headlight with a built in horn but my primary bike has a trash headlight. I spent $49 to get a headlight upgrade but it was just a cheap $8 temu headlight with a 2 pin ebike connector soldered and electrical taped on. It's bright but it doesn't project forward, it's better for cars to see you than for you to see a dark road.
The urge to increase power natural but it is also what will ultimately bring the regulatory hammer down. All it takes is one or two viral stories of a ebike running into an old lady or something and the public and politicians will pick up that narrative and be talking about licenses, insurance, tags, or even bans.
YEAH I got Bafang, Kunteng, Jauo Pay and a bunchof other stuff hardly anything is compatable.... the last thing you see before a bafang hub motor fries an expencive KT display is it going 40MPH pushing the bike out the front door
I’m thinking about just going for the whole deal including the rear wheel and motor so I’ve got usable bike. The way this thing is now it’s so aggravating when you drive it. But that would solve my problem with just putting a whole new system on the bike.
They should have em all standardized. It’s almost like planned obsolescence by manufacturers. Or some are seeking a competitive advantage in a popular ebike movement. Your build is awesome, I’d love an ebike that makes the tires squeal. When I bought my first e-bike( Lectric xp 2.0)…I was like, how do i make this go faster? 25mph was not enough and slow hill climbing… This year i sold it. Now I want something faster that has customer service that was as good as Lectric. I could get something fast off Baba or Aliexpress…but I’m pretty sure it would have no support or parts support. So now I’m looking at branded models that have support even though they all come from the same country ( china) and the US branded models just slap a sticker with their brand name on them. But it would be nice to have swappable standard parts that for sure.
CitizenCycle looks like a good bike to me.
If your up to it, or if not hire an electrical person to do it, but put in some time doing research on all those connections, as most controllers, motors, displays, etc have alot of the same connections on their PCBs, even if the wiring harnesses, connectors vary widely, but after doing that, find a manuf/distributor to make the most common to start and sell them at a major premium...
People would buy them just to save themselves the hassle and its not price gouging (although some will say that, inevitably) as you took the initiative as well as did the R&D. I think youd rake it in and once all the research/manuf vendors were sorted, itd be alot simpler than shipping in batt pks.
Its a heck of alot at the start no doubt but the payoff might be outstanding as your kindve the first, I think? Just my 2C
My Fabulous havac x2 the headlight horn stopped working I opened the controller box and found 2 small wires disconnected but they were like soderd in I think I wish there was a fuse box type plugin for all e bikes
Pick one bike first . If you make a 45 or 50 amp controller for my freedom I would buy it right away . Once you take care of that then choose another model that can take advantage of the upgrade. If pre-orders will make it more feasible then do it that way. I'm sure if after you do a couple runs any supplier will be glad to supply a small number with a certain type of plug for a certain bike. Thanks for all your good work.
You can always shunt mod, I'm pretty sure Citizen has a tutorial on how.
The new Freedoms DO have 45 amp controller already.
I originally bought the first version, sold it and bought a 2023 version. So mine still has a 40 amp controller. I wonder how much difference the 5 amps really makes?
So for example , you could not put a 60 or 80 amp sabaton controller on the wired? Or only specific Wired controller?
Can you tell me where you got those rear view mirrors?
Anyone who's modded their E-bike, or e-build will no doubt (as I have) have controllers laying around that did not match up when arrived...
It can be a nightmare modding them to go faster at times. I got there in the end, but it cost me a small fortune 😅
if the connectors are the only thing holding you back, you can research making in-line adapter converters which might let you use controllers and hubs with different connectors together. make sure also the motors accept the rating output of the controllers to not burn out the motors either.
Is there 1 connector type that is more popular than others? That's where you could begin.
What is possible with the Wallke H9 AWD?
Hey, I'm a new subscriber, and looks like you know a lot about Ebike, I have a question I bought Ebike on Amazon Hiboy p6 fat tire, and I wonder if you know how to increase the power on it.
Thanks.
You are at the mercy of China 🇨🇳, good luck bruh
Plug-n-play is a bit difficult due to the sheer number of e-bikes out there and the moving target represented by the constant stream of new models. I think having standardized connectors is basically impossible.
That said, the actual motors and controllers are fairly standardized in terms of control and power wires. There are only a few types of motors and it seems like many controllers can be configured to handle almost anything, at least as long as the voltage is compatible. Even if the connectors are not.
This puts wiring squarely in the realm of the enthusiast. One need various wire sizes, sheathing, heat shrink, good wire strippers, proper ratcheting crimpers, random connector kits, a soldering iron, a heat gun. It's quite a list. Stuff I just have on the shelf, but most people will only have some of it. Not enough to make a proper job of it.
There is also the problem of all the cable lengths all being different for each model, never mind the incompatible connectors on the ends! Supplying a universal kit with adapters for different connector ends has its own problems due to the sheer number of combinations as well and your inability to test complete systems for all e-bikes.
--
This is a conundrum. Perhaps the solution is to leverage the enthusiast crowd. Supply two types of kits:
#1 - What you are doing now where the kit is model-specific and basically just plug-n-play. Something most people can install without tons of tools.
#2 - An "enthusiast/DIY" kit for people with electrical skills and don't mind investigating additonal parts themselves. This kit supplies the devices and cables like #1, except the cables are long enough for any bike and the cables only have one connector (loose wires on the other side). That connector being into the equipment you supply.
Then the enthusiast needs to get the proper connector kit for whatever the other-end gets plugged into, cut the wiring to size, solder, heat shrink, etc themselves.
Once an enthusiast does #2 and tests it, knowing it works, they can email you with pictures and the precise length they cut the cable to and the connector adapter they used. If you choose, you can then supply a #1 kit for that specific e-bike instead of a #2 kit.
That all said, you would still need a way to verify that the cables you are supplying will actually work, which can be a bit of a show-stopper. And its a lot more work on your-end to make a business like this work. Still, I think being able to leverage the enthusiast community might be the key.
-Matt
Thank you for this detailed input!
Citizen - pick 2 or 3 manufacturers who will deal with you. Sell mods for those bikes. Too many bikes out there anyway. Your fans will go with one of those brands and wait for your mods. I’m riding an Aventon and ready to upgrade. Keep the faith. I’ll get what you can mod.
Yes I think you're right, that might be the way to go, just pick two or three specific Brands and make mods for those
i agree pick 2 or 3 manufacturers who will work and deal with you less complicated
That definitely does seem the most logical
Can you start off with the bike that you already have done like the Himiway? And build from there. I believe that you have everything to add the controller for the Himiway already and if so start there.
gee - I see several good ideas for options here. :O
ok my favoto step thru flurry 2.0 has a 22 amp controller and my other is a fearless step over with a 20 amp controller - both have bafang 750 watt hub motors and 48v 14A batteries.
they are a year apart in age 2022 on the fearless & 2023 on the flurry
the step thru (flurry) seems to go better [both are set to 20A cur] with the same settings, but different controllers and displays
my thought is to get at least a 28A controller and the correct display for it. (?)
might need to replace the wire harness as who knows what they used?
thankfully the motors are as standard as bafang are going to be. & both are cadence sensors.
Im a bit different and would like to see my power increase in the low torque for easier steep hill climbing.
16 to 20 mph would be a fine top speed for my ebikes. I want gravel road & trail torque.
might be great to have a kit with wires loose and I could install the connectors that are compatible for my ebike (?)
or might it be better to replace the complete wire harness? if the ends are not connected? then I can cut it to the right length for the ebike. then connect it/complete it myself so its to my liking.
Im with others in suggesting a complete kit with the controller, display and an unfinished wire harness that we can trim to fit our ebikes.
of course Id get a controller upgrade "If" it made the difference in low end torque Im looking for.
Iam still waiting to buy the wired cruiser or an ecells step star, but neither may be what want.
as for me I want to go low n slow, the top end speed is not something that interests me. [I avoid public roads]
to get what suits me, I may have to build it. :O
Make upgrades for the connector you think SHOULD be the standard. Hopefully you will make a 750 front motor compatible with the WING Fatty 2.
Yeah I asked a question maybe a week ago but I forgot the episode. I have an e-bike made by the company SAMEBIKE. I ordered one delivered to Osaka Japan. The lady told me a lie and said the bike had a throttle. Long story short. The bike only has a torque sensor. Their engineering team told me it's impossible to change the controller and add a throttle. My question is, is it impossible to change the controller and add a throttle? I will remember this episode and check back. Thanks in advance.
Kind wishes,
Edward
I believe that on eBay an entire eBike has been advertised for about $500 including a front wheel hub motor.
Definitely try to work on the bikes that are limited at 20 miles an hour with the throttle Aventon for one
ADAPTORS! Maybe what is needed is a comprehensive kit of plug adaptors, connection adaptors. I wonder how many adaptor types you could find just by searching for adaptors? You come up with a universal adaptor set, What you can't find, you might create. This might require stripping wires going into connectors & soldering those wires.
Cool idea, I know I would buy an adapter set like that!!
I have a Himiway Stepthrough looking for replacement rear motor. Silver plug
Any help?
i would like to see a reveiw on the road warrior against e-cells 5 star
Another part could be sensors like torque sensor upgrades
You should develop interfaces/plugs between existing wire plug types and your plug type. It's a new market that doesn't exist. Order the minimum quantities of each type and see how it sells...
So I can get generic parts I have to mess with all sorts of places, including Amazon. If I was going to buy after market parts from someone like you I would expect them to be better than what I can just pick up from other places.
With that said, it dosnt have to be 100% plug and play. Most of the people buying this stuff are reasonably competent. What I would do is make sure that the plugs on your controller for example all have the same ports for the same items across all controllers you would sell. One standard battery connector, one standard throttle connector, etc.
I would then make adapter cables for the most common plug types to sell as addons. I know there are endless options and you cant stock everything, but I am also guessing there are probably only a hand full of battery connectors. Yeah, you will never be able to get them all, but maybe you could get 70% off all battery possibilities with 5 or 10 different adapter cables.
Dude, if you could just come up with plug and play adapters that you could plug in to join the 2 non matching ends you would make good money. I ñeed a set now. I have a bike that came from the factory in AWD, (E Cells). Sell a kit like that, one which is pŕoduced for AWD.
Just stick with the front wheel kit for now, even if the price goes up to like 1500 bucks you will still sell all of them I believe easily. It's a pain in the butt to try to find all the parts and if someone else does all the work it's worth the extra money. There is no reason to even think about the standardization of the plugs that is never going to happen. I can't wait to get a hold of one of your front hub wheel Motors please get those going again
I agree with you there's something to be said for keeping it simple, not having a ton of different products to manage
Too bad there isn’t a catalog that shows every connector for every component on every e-bike. Then you can just include the needed adapters with each kit you sell. I think as you figure out how to find your niche, working out the different connectors and how to make these components work, you are going to tap into a huge market and opportunity! I can see you selling up to 1000 kits a day.
Can you make me a front wheel kit for a Magicycle cruiser I have an extra 52v battery
All I should say just choose one battery plug and those motor plug needs to cut can choose different plug
Sadly I'm pretty sure you'll have to have a ton of adapter cables.
The only thing you can control is what connectors you use. I would love to see a 1500 watt continuous rear motor, 45 amp controller and display.
The problem with providing a 1500 watt rear motor is typically they have a wider dropout, so it wouldn't fit most bikes
Keep doing
Needs to be replacement controllers just for the rear and no front motor that gives 5 mph increases. Just a rear motor to go from 35-40 plus. No dual motor and no dual display
Create a kit with a 40 amp or so controller and that kit will be specific for the connector for the rear motor. Your kit will include the wiring harness throttle, head light light and display along with the crank sensor if needed. I’ve got a Wallke H6ST that is just anemic. The factory controller is garbage the bike hesitates like crazy even with the replacement controller, it’s really no better. Come on I’ll send you a pic of the outbound wire on the motor and I’ll replace everything else if you can make it work. Let’s go!
I think you're right. if I did any kind of rear wheel kit it would need display, controller, throttle, wiring harness, and possibly lighting all in one package
You would have to include certain pigtails and have the customer cut and splice the wires.
Plug adapters is all I can think of.
They do need to standardize them, but Ebike are getting so popular so fast it is hard to keep up!
Maybe start with a complete kit rear wheel kit that can replace the old wiring harness the old display the old connector for the control box complete with everything that's probably the best way to do it and it's not much more money because the different wiring harnesses make it very difficult so get a standard wiring harness that can be used in your kit instead of trying to adopt to all the different wiring harnesses out there which probably is going to be impossible to do something that will work on 48 volt and 52 volt and something that can be adapted to 60 and 72 volt poor future use
Can you do a a real high-powered e-bike build? Maybe stealth bomber frame qs direct drive motor 72 volt with a fardriver controller Just want to see how they compare to the high-powered geared dual motor bikes
Adapter cables would be the way to go.
lol chop em all and go back to spade/lug old school - give em bare wires and let em chop their wires to match
but what you can do is standardize your own interface and just add dumb adapters; connectors themselves aren't expensive so they don't add much to the cost.
Someone recently did that for power tools - they made an interface and a generic battery pack, so you do have to add the adapter to each power tool per manufacturer but you can thereafter use the generic pack for any tool that has an adapter. the bonus is that they added features to the packs like onboard charging and USB A out for people to charge devices with, so if you have added features that are gained with your controller then more people are apt to have interest.
If you're after a generic controller just to make your life easier, remember it's not a product...
Making parts for current ebikes is kind of a tight market; lots of people in the space and it's well along the race to the bottom so profits are already shrinking. The right thing to do is just take the leap and make a 100% domestically sourced/built product, then all the features other companies don't want to put in are options for us to add. This can also get us ahead of all the ebike legislation that's piling up and coming down the pipeline because we're local and that gives us agility to respond and turn around feature adds quickly.
Imagine being able to order with granularity your own configuration and have it not be upcharged 300% because of tariffs, shipping/cartage, etc. That's possible if I don't have to be on calls all the time with multiple countries who are supplying us, and the latency between fixes to deploy in our local markets have always been a sore point with me. It's cheaper to do it locally as well; if you can't run a sweatshop anymore (Foxconn, Cor-Tek, etc), you won't save that money, so there's no real value in offshoring it. If anything, I'd go with Taiwan because they're far and away ahead of the planet in their infrastructure for PEV - up to and including public battery swap programs so you don't even have to charge your PEV, you just deposit your battery and it gives you a fresh one, all at roadside kiosks throughout the cities Even the batteries themselves are self-tracking and have connectivity, so it makes the process super fast as all the components recognize each other and simply *work* - you tell it you're there, it opens a door, you push the battery in the hole, hole closes, it verifies the battery, another door opens up and it pushes the fresh one, also tracked, part way out the door so you can see which one is yours without having to look at all.
But with Pinion's new MGU and things like downtube motors (Fauza) or harmonic pin drives (TQ) or non-IGH gearboxes (Enviolo extreme), et al, there are a lot of opportunities to wisely buy the best components available and make those builds available at what seems like a ridiculous cost but was mostly achieved by using *less* and pulling large chunks of complexity out of the design. I'm also working on a frame design for travel bikes that will assist people getting into it as the last stage of unfolding - doubly value add because it also lets them basically walk into the bike instead of having to step over (even a low slung travel bike will be hard for some people, if the frame folds orthogonally from the typical then it can actually be resting on the ground before being snapped into the last place).
There are no new problems and as far as I can tell the ebike segment really lags technology and cost vectors of many other industries/products...spent over 25 years developing/deploying/sustaining advanced technologies, now I'm bored. Find me a new problem ;-)
Wow somebody really knows their stuff !!! Thank you for the input & info!
I need more power for the Letric Xp 3.0...Hook it up!!!
universal standards!!!
How about people send you their controller and you update them and send them back? I keep burning up the controller on my CSC electric bike for some reason, the company won’t warranty them they just sell me a new one.
I don't think connector standardization is going to happen. It would be great, but it is just wishful thinking.
If I understood things correctly, then you are considering 3 options regarding controller upgrades:
1...Sell controller and let customers figure out connecting it.
2...Sell controllers that are designed to fit specific bikes.
3...Sell controller and stock the many different adaptors needed to cover the majority of bikes.
To me, option 1 seems like the worst of the three. It doesn't add anything new to the market. People that are capable of connecting your controller could have done the same with the many other controllers that are currently available on eBay and Amazon.
Option 2 may be the most viable. It would require doing market research to determine sales figures for major brands and models, but your workload is mostly up front with market research and part sourcing for the kits. It is a more limited total market, but you get to ship things that normally will be hassle free for both the customer and yourself. This also let's you choose appropriate bikes that are capable of handling the upgrade. Otherwise you will have to deal with unhappy people that thought their little 10 amp hour battery would be no problem with your 40 amp controller.
Option 3 seems like a lot of work to me. It will be a lot of work stocking and shipping the many different adaptors needed. Customers will feel frustrated trying to figure out what they need. They will want you to hold their hand, and you will get endless questions. It would be a very useful resource for people, but it sounds awful for you, Citizen.
I think your thoughts are absolutely right on the money! Thank you!
The best way would be your own kit your own wiring harness where you can add on things like lights and everything else but have your controller your display that basically all standard that would be the best way to do it and have different wheel sizes 2024 and 26 you can have a couple different controllers that can be different sizes that will make things very simple it will cost a little bit more but it's simple for the person that's buying it
All the customers already have the plugs they need, I guess cut and splice directions instead, they are DIY'rs afterall, maybe the easiest solution
Couldn't you make the controllers the way you want... And create an adapter accessory... Of course it would be great to have them standardized
An octopus adapter...(Yours)-1 to many for the most prevalent in your mind ... I'm imagining one of those phone charger power plugs with micro USB, mini, lightning etc
The lack of standardization leaves consumers at the mercy of the bisinesses for repair as well as build! Standardization will come in the future.
You need to build/offer a complete bike with upgradable/optional parts from the start. I bet there would be PLENTY of business for you to make a good profit.
I feel like no one would buy the base model and upgrade though, everybody would just buy the top level package
@@CitizenCycle925 you know more about it than I do, just offer the top trim then. I know I want a faster e-bike than I have now. Minimum 40 mph even 50(or faster) would be cool with me too
Ill biy your citizen bike how much
For the algorithm.
I have found that ebikes have another downside that is kind of a pain.. And that is the relative cost of the new battery compared to the entire bike itself. When a battery wears out and needs replacement or you long for that full power you had when the battery is new, then you are faced with a decision to make. Do I sink $500+ more dollars for a quality battery into this 2-4 year old bike or buy one of the new bikes? Now that there are better models on the market, You feel you are throwing money away putting a new battery on an old bike when a new bike can be had for an affordable price. This is unlike a non electric bike that you might keep for 10-20 years and tweak a little bit here and there and still get the same performance.
What I am hearing is that parts are not universal and as soon as you get the parts there are better parts out there..
Regardless swap a 25amp for a 45amp controller and watch your e-bike catch on fire and burn down.
I enjoy your videos, but I am not interested in dual motors or FWD. Fast acceleration doesn't interest me either. Top speed does, and long-range is even more important to me.
I'm not surprised you are finding so many different wiring connectors. Like you I doubt it's on purpose, they use whatever they have available when building these bikes.
Maybe fittings are similar by nationality? It IS a pain .
Tooooo many different bikes. Market is not big enough to stock so many things. No universal plugs is right - -- Its hopeless right now.
Uh oh, DIYers are licking their chops.