can a 3D PRINTED fan outperform a COMMERCIAL fan? UNEXPECTED OUTCOME
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 12 พ.ค. 2024
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Normally after I post a new Fan Showdown video I get comments saying I should make the fan models available. There is a reason as to why I don’t which I will explain today. Additionally, after looking at the Phanteks T30 in the last video I got many comments asking me to make a Cheater version of the T30. Well thanks to Nesto, the cheater designer today we will do just that. Can modifying your PC cooling fan improved its performance at all, if so by how much and in what capacity?
Brintbed 3D printer filament
www.printbed.com
Nestos thingiverse “cheater download”
www.thingiverse.com/thing:496...
Phanteks T30
amzn.to/3hMKvub
thanks for watching please like and subscribe. - วิทยาศาสตร์และเทคโนโลยี
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Thank you World of Warships for sponsoring this video.
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Here’s an idea, why don’t you take the Noctua’s AAS desk fan from this video and combine it with some of the past fans that won first place or just blew your mind with how well they preformed and see what kind of new numbers you get with cooling and air flow.
Maybe even combine it with the Cheater? th-cam.com/video/SIcjrMmXlCc/w-d-xo.html
Link to the filament that you mentioned?
I wonder if the noise normalized level in the Radiator config would have been different on the Cheater. IE if the radiator effected the tested noise level & if an adjustment in the RPM would have brought them together again while giving different results. Since the radiator would effect the noise output of the system with the resistance it provides.
Link for PLA?
Great idea do a test to see if it's actually the fan or the "accessories" that make the changes. Use the stock a12 and stock t30 with the exhaust and intake parts from the cheater. We will find out how necessary the accessories are vs the fan design!
I see a lot of people are still wondering what's happening with the Acceleron fan. Glad to say it's still going! It's just taking a long time. Those that are still waiting, thank you for your patience. Also, thank you again James for reaching out to me. Hope you all have a wonderful day c:
thats exciting
yep, production of things takes a long time.
Do let us all know what happens when you are able to release the information when it's all said and done, or better yet, send him a few fans to test, or perhaps, as I heard it's a computer manufacturer, maybe a whole system, like as a promotional piece, or a thank you or something, along with lots of information for him to do a video with
@@dinosoarskill17 I hear producing again can take a long time, like 9 months. Plus there's over a decade between cycles.
@@Najolve depends on what it is, how many parts, tolerances, materials, etc. castings are expensive as well.
I would love to see what happens if you just add the velocity stacks to a stock A12x25 and Phantex Fan. Would it improve the performance of a standard unmodified fan?
Yes! Give us the bolt ons!
Nice
This was my question too, especially with the front part and the back part separately and together. Is it the shroud at the front concentrating suction? Is it the static fins at the back turning the rotational of the swirling wind from the fans back into straight rearward energy?
Yeah, that's what I was more interested in as well. How well does that fan - as itself - do when sandwiched in between the input and output stages?
This just showed how the motors compare...
yes, it would because it smooths out the flow going into the fan.
and im guessing the flow straightener makes the air leave the radiator sooner too, instead of twisting around and stagnating behind it.
Here's a big thanks to Nesto for being so generous with the designs!
You are welcome, mate :-) I promise Cheater 2 will have better quieter fan :-D
@@nestoNESTOnesto oh man I can wait 🙌
@@nestoNESTOnesto server fan time
I want to see the stock fan installed inside the cheater barrel. Because at this point you're comparing a very non optimised fan in a flow controlled channel vs an optimised fan with no intake or exhaust aerodynamics. The question now is what's the optimum intake and exhaust design for the stock fan.
This... just swap the fan body not touching the blades.
Would be great to see this. Comparing the fan performances. How much better does the ducting make a professional fan.
I was about to comment this, although 3 days too late.
@@wobblysauce and put the intake cone in the middle somehow
This... I can't understand why the blades are being changed out.
When fans turn, they aren’t just rotating through still air. They induce a flow ahead of the fan, at the fan disk, and behind the fan. At the fan disk, the air is moving roughly half the speed of the air that is behind the fan. The Cheater is probably designed for the blades to be at the max lift-to-drag ratio at each radial location, assuming the flow is unobstructed. The addition of the radiator probably added some backpressure that reduced the flow speed, causing the blades to be at a higher angle of attack and increasing drag.
Edit: The commercial fan is probably designed with the backpressure of a radiator in mind.
Quite smart sounding but after reading it yeah. That does indeed make sense
Just like European engines are designed to get max MPG at 56mph, which is what they are required to publish in advertisements
@@maverickstclare3756 fuel consumption and consequently emissions, are not calculated at constant speed
@@luca6819 source?
I believe the thick stator being off of the struts is contributing significantly to turbulence and noise due to their close proximity.
What I really want to see is, the cheater's intake+exhaust with the blades of the next best one, to see if the cheater is good by design or by bruteforcing it.
YES. This is the big question. Is it the blade design or is it the intake or is it a combo? Without that this whole evaluation is pretty useless IMO.
I think it’d be interesting to see how the stock blades perform with the cheater’s velocity stack & duct equipped
They won't work: the stack and duct require air flow. The stock blades generate static pressure more than it does air flow. If anything, the performance might drop.
@@velvetrosang4684 which is why it would be interesting to see it.
@@thisisabsolutelystup I agree, tbh.
Same! And I’d also be interested in the same for the a12x25. Can you throw a duct and vstack on it for better performance?
I hope the acceleron fan production will happen, the fan deserves it!
Maybe we should reach out to the designer
It's still going! Just taking a while c:
8:20 That "Grams Remaining" window in the spool is a REALLY SMART design :D
EDIT: AreaDenial below is right. Sleepily Fatfingering a calculator is a fail.
It's a good idea, but the gauge is wrong. The markings are equally spaced. The volume of the spool increases by pi*r^2, not just r. (e.g. A circle with r=1 has an area of 9.8ish. A circle with r=2 has an area of 19.7ish. r=3 has an area of 29.6ish. this isn't equal, linear growth)
@@WAF74 Your math is wrong, it proves the opposite of your point. The area of a circle with r=1 is 9.8, r=2 is 39.5, r=3 is 88.8. Your math showed linear growth instead of exponential growth.
EDIT: Additionally, if you look closely at the markings, they aren't equally spaced. The distance between the two outer markings is slightly smaller than the distance between the two inner markings. This would be much more apparent if the spool was wound closer to the center of the circle.
Surely 'metres remaining' would be better than 'grammes remaining'?
The shape of the fan blades are more or less efficient at specific rpm. Look at ship/boat propellers; they have the pitch fixed to be most efficient at specific revs. Thanks for a great series, I really enjoy watching.
Heh you must work with boat props or know somone who does, i used to have a 3 blade prop for a 9.9 evinrude
@@Shad0wBoxxer I used to make props for work boats and the Royal National Lifeboat Institution Tamar and Trent boats.
variable pitch pc fans when?
@@mrrooter601 No idea. Have you seen the hardware inside a variable pitch prop?
Could you please do the T30 with thr factory fan blades and test it with the shrouds? I want to know if the shroud is providing the benefit, the fan itself is, or a combo of both.
Yeah this would be very interesting!
I agree!
Everyone better bow to this man. He joins 14 years ago
The lower effiency for the cheater is likely due to having less static pressure compared to the stock fan. The blades have large gaps, which at the lower speed and with a restriction, allow some air to bounce back and become turbulent around the fan disk. That's why the large 120 volt fans for servers or industrial cooking equipment always run at full speed; they are designed to move the air quickly and overcome the pressure with volume.
Nope. It's the inlet vanes, they are at a fixed angle. They are more or less the reason for the higher efficiency but even more only at a specific airspeed. Since the resulting airspeed is different every test the effectiveness changes.
It has to do with attack angle. That's why vanes in turbines are adjustable
If Thomas sees that, I would also be interested in how the Acceleron is doing
Doing fine, albeit slow, but still going c:
I really enjoy and appreciate the little edits like during the fan cutting haha. Little additions like that make it even more fun to watch. Great vids. Keep it up!
We recommend printing the Green PLA at 195. The cheater fan looks awesome!
Good on you for getting that fan maker in touch with that manufacturer and not taking the credit. A deserved subscription here.
The best thing about you and your channel is your complete transparency. Its refreshing with todays garbage media.
One of my favorite shows on all of the Internet.
Keep em coming please.
Nesto is a fricking legend. He even made version for non-metal hub fans. Can't wait to print out the fan so I can finaly cool down my "oven"
Thanks Nesto :)
In a pinch, the newer versions of Fusion 360 have a decent STL converter. It'll often import the wrong size (no size reference value in STL format), so you'll have to adjust that. But it's passable, you'd have to do some mesh cleanup. I've used it a lot when needing to edit a Thingiverse file.
I'd recommend importing a known size model (or quickly sketch one .. e.g. sketch the hub to the appropriate size) as well, so you can resize according to that reference and fit.
Thanks to both you and Nesto for doing all of this modification and testing, but I simply wanted to see what would happen if you added the Cheater's ducts to the standard T30 ;). I did not intend to make you modify the blades to match the Cheater. I realize that the stock T30 blades aren't designed to be ducted in this way, but I remain curious about whether it helps.
aerospace major here. make the funnel larger(longer) and outlets with a more dramatic change than what you have right now. The current design doesn't have enough "time" to accelerate to a higher velocity. a couple mins playing in cfd on whatever software you use to cad the fan inlets should give you better results. good luck!
I'm printing the Cheater Fan!!
Yes, happy about this!! Thanks Nesto and MH!!
Love your videos man, such an awesome channel.
P.s: Listening through studio monitors, you need to bump up your audio mids just a fraction.
Cool test. I would like to see the results with the rear stator removed from the cheater. That should help performance with the radiator installed.
MAN, WHAT HAVE I MISSED!?!? I feel like I've only missed a couple episodes and now you have what looks to me like a full-on testing rig for fans on the bench that's so cool.
got me hooked on the fan showdown when i binged the first season , love the videos thanks for the content
I think you pretty much nailed the explanation with the difference in static pressure. The fact that the efficiency of The Cheater seems to scale up at higher speeds is impressive. So, now I’m wondering what speed that thing needs to hit before the performance improvements level off? If you can find a 120 mm fan motor that can go as high as 10,000 rpm, that might be a fun test of it’s limits.
I just did some looking around and you might be able to find a Delta fan that’s 120 mm and capable of 6,000 rpm. The reason I came back to edit this is that Noctua makes an NF-F12 Heavy Duty fan that goes up to 3,000 rpm. That seems like it might be able to retake the crown from the T30 as the best commercially available 120 mm fan. It comes in black and brown in the stick configuration, so that’s kinda sweet.
Your production and content quality keeps going up. Nice job man!
Idea for a future series of fan showdown: Find a commonly available standalone 12v motor that could be used for a fan. Then the only design constraints are 1) must implement that motor, 2) must fit in a 120x120x40(?) box, 3) must follow standard 120mm fan mounting. Would be cool to have totally diy fans that don't require buying and tearing up an already very nice fan.
Try the standard fan with the ducts, but the stock blades. Curious how well it does with just the added shroud
I think the answer to why the T30 beat the cheater only on the radiator at low RPM is because these kinds of fans (Gentle Typhoons and all the more recent iterations) are specifically optimised for static pressure and low noise/RPM.
Like lots of guys in lab coats with fancy equipment spent a bunch of time making sure their fans would be good specifically in that application, while the cheater was built for a different application (which it excels at btw).
So many fan videos, nice.
Is there already a video where you compare 3d printed fans that fit in the standard 12v case fan frame format?
My pc case have not unlimited space for yuge yet kool looking fan mods.
Did you ever actually check the sound level on the noise normalized with the radiator installed? I'm wondering if there was an impact to the sound level due to the reduced airflow and the fan speed could need to be adjusted...
Amazing work nesto!
Just had a thought - Do more fins allow for increased static pressure? Maybe that's why the Cheater had a lower flow with an obstruction?? idk
Also, do you think it would be worth checking out the current draw to see how electrically efficient the fans are?
Keep up the good work :) Thank you for your time.
Probably yes and tge lower the rpm the bigger the difference (with higher rpm a blade is covering a bigger area in a shorter amount of time). But also the angle of the blades matters.
Would be really interesting to see the difference of a standard fan with and without the duct and exhaust.
i love this show, as it combines PC Hardware with 3d Printing over and over... i am working on some interesting 3d prints, too.. like an armor for mainboards, ATX I/O Hoods, Fan Shrouds and Air Tunnels and my highest piece of art will be a mostly printed modcase for custom watercooled PC Components. Even more interesting Projetct here 4 your Channel could be: finding a DIY formula for a Watercooling liquid, that allows to watch the movement (like Mayhems aurora or Primochill Vue) but without clogging!!
The OG fan has a denser blade configuration which helps lower rpm pressures.
Higher rpm get more benefit from a more open blade design. (this is also why a room blower fan has big blades but a prop-airplane has narrow blades.)
This is what a community is all about...not interested in monetary gains but the advancement of the group...thanks to you and all your time and hard work and to Nestos...
The answer to the results is the different airspeed at the inlet. The vanes in the inlet change the angle of attack for the fan blades relative to the incoming air.
Since they are static the effectiveness changes with different airspeed. And the airspeed is affected by the pressure the fan has to overcome.
I find myself laughing at these videos more and more. I literally watched the flush cutter part about 3 times.
That hit marker was just fantastic
@@alberthenderdon3639 What got me was the silly sound effects.
Dam you joined 15 years ago. I’m 15. That’s scary sorta
I keep mentioning the GT versions of the Gentletyphoon. Nidec Servo did more than the grey finned fan you have there. Nidec Servo also has a 3000RPM version of the Gentletyphoon - the AP29. They also have a 5200RPM version - the AP-31.
In principle, airflow is proportional to rotational speed and static pressure is proportional to the square of the rotational speed. For example, doubling the rotational speed will double the airflow and quadruple the static pressure.
I would love to see you do the same test on the "best" fan you have had on fan showdown. it was the slug mk2 if i am not wrong? thats a fan i would love to print out and use on my computer.
great review 👍
thanks for sharing your experience with all of us 👍😀
I think it would be cool to see a chart with airflow output vs. rpm vs. amp draw vs. static pressure vs. noise level for each fan in it's original configuration and then with each other blade setup. I think this is how we really would make an assessment on an electric fan's efficiency. If we were serious about making that assessment that is.
You should add in a static pressure test. Something tells me that this is likely the major difference between the noise normalized vs max speed that is causing such a difference in CFM. Especially considering the air leak gaps between them is pretty different unless you are using gaskets for the cheater.
This means that the cheater is optimized for CFM at a loss of static pressure while the base model is optimized with static pressure in mind for better use with radiators.
Hey @Major!
I am just starting on 3D printing and i was asking myself if you could include the printer you used to make the fans? I ordered a FLSUN super racer because of your reviews, still i would like to know what you print with which printer (since you collected quite a few over the years :D).
Thanks for your positive attitude and entertaining fun videos!
I have 3 i use all the time, Prusa mk3s, FLsun SR and the Creality ender 7.
I believe the flip flop of performance at higher rpm is from the number of fan blades. Some did a test on this for a 3D printed jet engine. Squeezing more air, requires more torque with more blade and more drag
The distance of the blades to the surface of the radiator makes it lose a lot of static pressure at low rpm unless everything was perfectly sealed up. At high rpm this becomes less of an issue due to the much higher pressure build up between the blades and the radiator surface.
I believe it is because of the green spacer between the radiator and the fan that makes some of the air to be forced back out where it sucks in creating a vacuum. Try the same run but without the spacer. To get the actual fan closer to the radiator.
I'll curious to see the result on same guide as cheater on the regular fan
If you wanna geek out to the Max you could make a fan curve for each. You’ll see why the one fan has different low noise performance. When you drop the speed so much you have the head fan law to contend with ( heat decreases by the square of speed). So dropping speed so much really eats into the restricted cfm.
Crazy fact that Acceleron got choosed as a possible actual product.
i am proud of ur honesty and credit giving
For the noise-normalized results, static pressure is lost in the cheater due to the long exhaust section. If the cheater fan was right up against the radiator, (remove the exhaust section but leave the intake section), it would likely score better.
Just a suggestion: You could probably use a Mass Airflow Sensor from a car to measure airflow pretty accurately. I'm not sure how it'd need to be wired but you're clever and I'm sure you could figure it out!
@Major Hardware, I believe you are missing a portion of the picture. What would the stock Typhoon do within the "cheater barrel". That is a variable you haven't accounted. I appreciate the level of effort to get one stock fan to support additional fan designs but it still leave the question to what benefit is added by having the velocity stack and exhaust backing. Otherwise these are different tests and cannot be compared properly. If you look at the comments you'll see everyone comment to this effect.
id love it if you would use this setup for the fan showdown it looks far more accurate than the current setup
Yep! Upvoting for season 4! Plus with the radiator he can have long tubes and check temps on a CPU!
Just found this channel. Looks like some neat stuff. I was wondering how you are powering your fans for testing. I looked through your videos but did not see a build video for your test setup. If you have one can you link it please? Thanks.
Cool video, I wonder what the standard fans with the flow modifers would be like too.
fans that builds static pressure will preform better having a velocity stack and fins to help remove the turbulence will also make a huge difference if you look at how underground mines ventilate they use the same concept
The design likely with a radiator/low noise level as priorities to the end consumer in mind.
In the automotive industry (and most end user targeted I would think) design with certain characteristics as priorities. High Performance & low noise, with common configurations such as a push or pull fan as having a high importance. So I think that the # of blades help to keep that static pressure at the low rpms with the angle of attack, where as the cheater improves at the higher speed by over coming the lack of blades with the steeper angle of attack.
Check out the Arctic P14
it seems to be leaning on the design of noctua and nidec fan, it's a budget fan that is supposedly outperforming some of the noctua fans
I'd assume the biggest advantage of the stock fan is the proximity of the blade trailing edges to the heat exchanger matrix. The flow smoothing exhaust structure on the cheater design allows too much wiggle room. The stock blades are also better configured geometrically to trap air between blade and heat exchanger, smearing it through like a spatula pushing a fluid through a strainer. As you said, the stock fan design is better at developing local static pressure. The cheater is optimized for flow.
I think there's back pressure from the fan and at lower RPM it builds up in the exhaust. If I'm right you can resolve it by placing the radiator between the exhaust and the fan.
Props for thinking of the licensing when you started this series.
I'd be curious to see the performance difference of the fan printed in Colorfabs lightweight PLA. You have to change your flow to 50-53% and the filament expands while printing, it basically foams up before it cools. I use it to 3d printing airplanes and they're usually 50-60% lighter than regular PLA. There's a company called Eclipson that designs airplanes to be printed with this material and they have a solid set of printer settings on their website.
Nice... you should test the unmodified commercial fan but with added air ducts added for comparison too
I would love to see the next fan designes printed with a sla printer. That should give the blades a much smoother look and maybe a little bit better performance. And on top of that u could print in clear/silk resin and make some really cool rgb fan designes. Love your show.
Dude, I'm no fan expert, but I sure feel like one since I started watching these. Great stuff :)
Hey Major, I have a fun Idea,
As most cases are simple boxes nowdays and we know their performance,
How about a case build out of shrouds?
As a case usually has 4 extra fans, you can enhance the shourds also with 4 extras.
I would love to see the cheaters shrouds on the a12x25 and on the p30. I wonder how much benefit is to shrouding and how much is the blades.
I know with turbochargers that having an inlet horn/shroud will push the surge line left, meaning that inlet flow is much more efficient. I wonder if the effect scales down to pc fans
I think its the back part. It sorta becomes a forced induction plenum at the NN levels. So I think if you took off the back duct for the cheater with the radiator it would be better. Thought on an Air cooling tower I would keep it because it is a much more open path. I think we are getting a fluid clutch type effect with the air in the duct.
I wonder if you could plot a few different points on a CFM / RPM and CFM / dB graph and see if there is a point of "optimality" for each property. Like you said at the end of the episode, figure out where the blade designs peak.
would be interesting to see a line graph with db or rpm on the x-axis. i think it would be a lot more insightful as to what's happening. (however, a lot more measurements)
You and Nesto gorgeous team! 👍
Try putting the exhaust chamber after the radiator. Might be it is creating an "air cushion" that obstructs the flow.
Somehow I missed when you started using this new testing method... BUT, You ask why the factory vs cheater blades didn't loose as much flow restricted, it's because different fan blade designs work differently for pushing through an obstruction, there are even different designs for pushing vs pulling (for automotive cooling, there are fans meant to be mounted in front of the radiator with "pusher" blades vs the normal "puller" mounted behind the radiator).
Now the thing is that different restriction will change the fan noise also, you can even end up in a harmonic where the fan will cavitate and speed up and slow down under what is apparently a static, steady load on it. Because of that, you should "noise normalize," which I'm guessing is setting an rpm where both fans have the same dB output, under the specific conditions that you're testing- if you're testing in free air then noise normalize for that, if you're testing in that tunnel then noise normalize for the fan in the tunnel, and with a restriction then noise normalize for the restricted condition. You should find that what is normalized will change under each. This might seem to be making this more difficult but really it isn't, just choose a dB level for the test and regulate the power input till you reach that dB. The RPM is an interesting fact but really shouldn't matter WRT to determining which is more efficient at a specific noise level.
Love the little sound and visual effects 😂👌
gratz, Nesto, awesome design.
I wanna see what fan provides the best flow through a radiator. Maybe 2 different fin densities? Max and then obviously noise normalized. I think many of use have an AIO or custom loop that we would be really interested in that. (I know I am). I use pwm p12's on my radiators because I've found (though no in depth testing) that they provide good cooling while being virtually silent.
Good work - I love your channel! ^^
I wonder what would happen with just a shrouded T30. ;)
**sees World of Warships ad, hears Jay yelling "I LIKE BOATS!"**
Very simple, tighter (both between blades and frame clearance) gives better pressure while broader blades give better airflow. The slightly higher result at max can be explained by the speculation that probably stock blades got little air starved while the massive propeller was able to push more air at lower rpm. If you measure how many amps the fan draws in both cases I'm pretty sure the cheater is using considerably more power when obstructed than the stock blades. For a radiator build I think the stock blades are a total win. Also if you try to have some sorta cheap fan do some pulling from the other side it'll help the stock blades reach full potential at high rpm as well.
Thr exhaust side vents on the cheater weren't perfectly lined up so maybe that would create a low pressure zone resulting in buffeting, that would mean more noise and slow down the air a bit.
This has gotten way more serious sense season 2, I love it
I think you are right on the money, the blades on the Cheater look like they are designed for CFM whereas the blades on the T30 are better suited for static pressure.
Super keen to see your crazy 30 blade fan in the Cheater housing to see what it does, Another thing I would love to see is a comparison between a 3D printed and an SLA printed version of the same fan to see if there is any measurable difference.
To further that you could also experiment with more exotic filaments like Carbon infused or wood grain PLA etc.
Love the content and keep up the good work!
An Aussie Fan. No pun intended. :)
I only just de-fanned my Noctua fan, this is epic!
Cool 😊 Maybe you should have run the cheater at the same RPM as the NN T30 for the radiator test as the more RPM then the more air being moved. Just a thought 👍
Submitted a fan! I keep coming back to eagerly see if you're giving it a go!
Would also be neat to see if the Cheater fan has different results with the 2 versions since the fan blades changed due to the hub size change!
Thumbs up for your new test methodology!
what machine do you use to make the smoke?
You can definitely see the dropoff coming at noise normalized. The smaller blades plus lower speed really show it's weak points once the speed falls off.
Still cool to see this done!
it's the gap between the blades that hurt it with the static pressure test with the radiator. if it was set up with say 7 or 8 blades, there's less gap for back feed, and it would have much higher static pressure.
I think the cheater fan shroud optimizes for airflow (causing it to win the unobstructed tests) without helping static pressure much, and is noisier at a given RPM due to shorter blades and worse materials, and possibly more obstructions.
And also fan design. I forgot one important thing in designing these. Cheater 2 will be quieter and faster :-).
the exhaust on the cheater is the reason that it doesnt work as well on a radiator, it needs pressure to push through the radiator, which alot of it is lost while traveling from the fan blades to the radiator.
also, when the air hits the radiator, it would create alot of turbulent air inside the exhaust cavity, which would take away the advantage of having the exhaust in the first place.
Would love to see a test of both the T30 and Cheater, both with the trumpet, but without the straightener in the back!
I remember there was a second place fan that actually could fit into that fan casing that performed almost just as well as that huge monstrosity.. that one would be the one to go for.
3:11 I lol'd so hard xD. I have used those cutters on wires and got'n hit so many times.