ATF or 80W90 gear oil in an LT230?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 18 ก.ย. 2023
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I have 75W90 in mine.
Though in the end, as long as you have something in it and it has not all leaked out, better than a empty box.
80W90 being thicker will have more drag, more motor power needed to spin it and more heat generated. ATF will spin easier, less drag on the motor, less heat, but may not have the film strength to keep the gears apart in a high loaded condition. What works best on the test rig probably won't be best in service.
So following your theory, should we use gear oil in LT77 and R380?
@@BritannicaRestorations Don't know about the R380 but my 110 with the LT77 does allow ATF maybe the higher gear speeds means less torque and lower tooth pressures? The transfer case in deep reduction and 1st main gear is going to have high tooth contact pressures at low shaft speeds, you would need an oil with good film strength to stop metal to metal contact. Lubrication is a dark science, and since Land Rovers usually drip it all over the ground I tend to just use what the book says. ATF in your test rig with no load on the outputs will be fine as the gears are pretty much free wheeling. I do like your test rig, the idea of running in the boxes before they go back in is brilliant.
Mike, it would have been very interesting to have included a noise test ( decibels) in this experiment.
Oh bloody hell, keeping us in suspense, the viscosity is gonna kill me.
It's really easy. More viscosity (thicker) more heat. It's a case of diminishing returns though. Thicker (to a degree) is more protection when working, not cold. Thin is more immediate protection when cold. That is why multi grade oils were developed. Best of both. Best oil in my opinion is amsoil severe gear 75/90 100% synthetic. No way I would use and ATF in an lt230 transfer box
th-cam.com/video/UnLzm1S0Ly0/w-d-xo.htmlsi=7DqYgTyTo4O9EIpN
th-cam.com/video/Sjw7616YI5c/w-d-xo.htmlsi=jD3GP-ISuEW2H7Ps
@@LleshelwinBeteszki-sc5dt I think you failed to see the humour in my comment, I'm an ex mechanical engineer.
@@BrianM0OAB I watched Han and chewy with the hydro spanners, so I'm a galactic know all maa narmsain
Impressive. Looking forward to what you get in the next video.
More to come!
It will depend on the ambient temperature at the time you run the 2nd test. 👍🏻🙏🦘
Can't wait to see the results.........I run my LT230 on EP140....it loves it, very quiet!
Brilliant mike, lots of debate like you said, no one actually experiments though so many thanks this is great stuff
Will be interesting to see the outcome. I thought it was EP90 in the LT230? Don't know whats in my transfer box, but my LT85 sounds like it's got crisp 'n dry in it.
I wonder what Wattage that motor is using at that speed?
I wonder if the thicker oil would increase drag and such increase wattage used to maintain that requested speed?
Oh the anticipation.
Just put ep90 in my transfer box...doesnt leak.....much...anymore, and is very slightly quieter....had atf..just seems abit thin for transfer boxes...
I can tell you that from 2007 all the way until the end of production in 2016, the only approved fluids were Castrol Syntrax 75W-90 (now called Castrol Transmax Axle Long Life 75W-90) and Texaco Multigear 75W-90R (now called Texaco Multigear R). In simple terms, what they're calling for now is either a semi-synthetic or fully synthetic SAE 75W-90 gear oil meeting API GL-5.
"Place yer bets place yer bets."
I use Lucas 80w90 gear lube, figured since it leaks a little, the Lucas gear lube keeps the gears coated. Heard of using Royal purple ATF. curious to see your results.
According to my revised January 1990 LR Discovery workshop manual in a grey binder with v8 section crossed out in red pen, shows both 90EP and 80W90 on the recommended lube list for transfer box but no ATF.
It also shows instructions for conditions outside temperate climate limits;
API GL4 90 EP, -10°C to +50°C.
MIL-L-2105 80W EP, -30°C to +10°C.
It'll be a damn interesting experiment either way.
The publication number for the manual is SJR900
Copyright LR 1989.
More useful info for the Landy nerds in us. Haha
There is no load on it😮
www.dingocroft.co.uk/acatalog/Rec_lubes_Def.htm
Well mike i swapped mine out for atf and was surprised at the lack of leaks at the intermediate shaft and in general in fact. Also the oil that came out was reasonable. The plug had very little swarf on it too. Its behind an automatic td5 disco ehich i think are very kind to the lt230s
Thank you ! I have got to thinking that the ATF is kinder to seals, you see very few auto transmissions pissing out oil like LT230's
Could it be the gear oil it dries out the rubber over time? Axles always leak.
I was surprised the ATF was not leaking even more!
I puted 80 w 90 in mine..., but i m waiting for your diag boss !
I've swapped between ATF & MTF in my Disco's R380 & a few times(summer winter) & am always surprised by the lack of immediate effect. The old oil is not washed off by the new very quickly at all. Just an observation.
I tried MTF and Redline but went back to ATF as there was no difference in my opinion = and MTF in Canada is a bugger to find!
very interesting, king mike,
i believe heat is the issue. further the transferbox under real condition wont get that hot anyway. the main gearbox is the problem. it gets unbelievable hot you can fry your steak on it, especially here in mountain area and hot climate, where it can go uphill for hours
as far as i understand one purpose for oil is to transfer heat, but mainly to prevent wear on wheels by shear forces.
i think in cold climate atf might be an option, but in hot climate .... and mountain aereas even the 80-90 is replaced by 90-140 or even higher.
further issue are parts made of bronze. how does atf reacts on this metal? GL-4 oil is not anymore available, so we are forced to use GL-5 products, which are not cleared for this metal.
a very interesting subject. any light in the dark is helpful. thx
I think there is a lot of bull with all these oils - as you state the higher the ambient temperature the thicker the oil
When I first came to Canada my first car was a Renault 5 as it was the only car I was familiar with.
The box was noisy, so I filled it with 140 gear oil - was great in +30 summer, but in -30 winter it would drive the car in neutral as soon as you dropped the clutch!
Best one is when the put it in an lt95 ! That never ends well !
Another interesting one! Comparing the LT230 specifications in various manuals: 1993 Defender Workshop Manual says EP90 (or SAE90, Hypoid90, 85W90) 1999-2002 Defender Workshop Manual says Texaco Multi-gear 75W90R (-30degreesC to +50degreesC) How about a similar test or video discussion on the LT77 and R380:Gearboxes Mike? Some R380 manuals call for MTF 94, others call for ATF M2? What is best?
ATF for gearboxes - tried them all
Could this work with roamer drive and the brass bushings?
Don't know = when we had a Romerdrive in on a short run it was 100c - this is maybe why the cheaper Chinese bearing fail?
75w90 synthetic is best for an LT230. 80w90 if you don’t mind the stronger smell. The original spec for LT77 and R380 is ATF (I believe type F ATF) but there was a service bulletin to run a manual transmission lube. My thought is that it was speced with ATF to improve shifting, but as we all know many, many LT77 in NAS110 and 94 NAS 90 (they switch to R380 late in the 94 production run) were warranty replaced for R380. I run redline MTL in my R380s and my LT77. There is or was some Land Rover specific MTL but I never bothered to find it. Personally I have found Lt230 to be quite robust, assuming, and it’s a big assumption, you can keep oil in them. I have seen them run without oil to the point the gears and bearings were blue from heat. Anyway, don’t run ATF in an LT230. ATF is the spec for the borg warner transfer cases on the 89-95 Range Rover classics (and I assume P38a range rovers, but it’s been too long for me to remember).
My LT77 was rebuilt and after a couple of years (and some reading) I decided to refill it with MTF94. Although advertised as MTF94, what I got was an 'equivalent' SAE 75W-80 gear oil. I tried it anyway and the gearbox was very notchy and crunchy. I found some genuine MTF94 and refilled it, and the change was definitely better, but was still a bit notchy from 3rd to 2nd. After I ran this for a bit I decided to go back to ATF as a test and the improvement was immediate. Im sticking with ATF in the LT77 and depending on Mikes results I might try it in the LT230.
Have you contacted Dingocroft and asked them if it is a typo? I have heard of using MTF vs ATF in the R380, But never EP 80/90 vs ATF in the LT230. I will keep to EP 80/90 in the LT230 as iirc the LR manual states , I will have to check later when at home on Rave.
Ive done the swap to MTF 94 in the 380…what a difference! The gear change is so much smoother! Well recommended
@@petedawson8257 I did try MTF 94 as well in my 90, was not so impressed with the change so went back to ATF.
@@neilwhite8131 I am surprised as it really was so much easier to select gears after and has remained so since.
Me too - even Ashcroft has gone back to using ATF
Just a comment on your maths, Mike. If you're running it at 60 kmh and you want it to "travel" 100 km you would need to run it for an hour and 40 minutes (1.67 hours). If you only let it run for an hour at 60 kmh you're only going to cover 60 km.
My first reaction too 😅
But Why do people do that? LR specify which fluid to use. .......
EP90W GL5
What's wrong with EP90?
EP90?
There is no load on it, cn you " brake" the outcoming shaft ?
I only have a 3 hp electric motor
To be picky, you really need to be taking more measurements.
For example, both oils might be within a few degrees of each other after 100km but one might've heated up more quickly than the other, or one might've heated up and stabilised while the other just gradually gets hotter and hotter.
I guess the best choice might depend on intended usage.
If you're going to jump in your LR and just drive it 100 miles along roads, the thicker oil would probably work better.
If, OTOH, you're in a muddy jungle, where you're only driving 20 miles a day, the thinner oil might allow the transfer case to start working smoothly more quickly.
Be interesting to see the results, though, and try and figure out what they mean.
So should we use gear oil in LT77 and R380?
www.dingocroft.co.uk/acatalog/Rec_lubes_Def.htm
@@BritannicaRestorations Mike, That lube chart shows both a change of the recommended oil and the capacity of the LT230 on the changeover from 300Tdi to Td5. Unless the boxes physically changed, are they recommending a reduction in fill level with different oil or is there another explanation..?
@@BritannicaRestorations Gearbox is a bit different because it's always spinning while the engine is running.
Having said that, there are definitely some (rare) applications, such as, say, fire-engines on military bases, where a thinner oil might be used because they'll want the gearbox to operate smoothly without having to wait for the oil to warm up.
My thinking is that, for example, in water pumps you'll use one grade of oil if the pump is running at a low speed for a long period but you'll use a thinner oil if it's expected to be running at high speed for a short period.
I just wonder if there might be similar benefits to choosing different oils for a transfer box.
Without a true load surely this test is of limited value. Then again with how prone they are to leak any oil is better than no oil.
They piss oil out normally
Amsoil 75 90 100% synthetic all the way. Viscosity of an ATF, protection of the ep90. It's expensive, but so is a rebuild. Saves fuel costs too. Do the math
Without a load, is there really a point to doing such a thing?
No David - there is no point at all - I am wasting my time, and your time commenting.
I am so sorry for your disappointment
I will try better next time
@@BritannicaRestorations 😂
It's not useless, though the results could be reversed under load.
It will still show bearing friction etc...
Its a hint at what happens without destroying a gearbox and its a bit of fun.
I hope nobody is going to put atf. Consequences will follow, but a few thousand km. Best to fill with 76w85 synthetic for cold weather or better 75w140 for warm weather.
Vonsequences? New word?
@@BritannicaRestorations Ha Ha Ha, just testing your attention. 😃
Not sure of the usefulness of this test really. It's more a question of how effective in extreme pressure and material compatibly I would think. Some grades of EP oils are supposedly less compatible with bronze bearing material and perhaps this is the origin of the thinking?