The literal point of the original paper Mario is we’re READING A STORY! The paper aesthetic was just to bring that point across. It was never supposed to be just paper gimmicks. It was literally just a style.
@@Gamelover254 Too bad that changed in TTYD when it was called "Paper Mario RPG". I don't understand the fixation on the Mario's Story title. It doesn't really mean shit in the grand scheme of things. If it had,it have kept that moniker permanently.
They did pick one. They picked the former. Paper Mario is no longer a RPG series with elaborate stories and it likely never will be one again. It's now an action-adventure franchise. There's no substantiated hope to be had that it'll change back suddenly. They made their decision already.
spbman1234 I can be fine with that if bitter, but if they are going to make it an action adventure series, they need to ditch turn based combat completely.
@@Mr_Meatbox and they think those baby games would be too hard for today's standards, and tbh kids today wouldn't have the attention span to beat it so its a fair assumption
The way that Miyamoto phrased it is in the western world a suggestion, but when a boss makes a suggestion like that in Japan it's not really a suggestion. It's telling you how to do your job.
This is what happens when literally the only fan feedback you care about is Nintendo club reviews that people get currency for using. Of course polls are skewed when people only spam the first answers and you have no way to filter out reviews that are being done way too quick.
@@spence8507 honestly, I feel the story made Super Paper Mario. Like the game mechanics were iffy but the story was amazing, at least to me anyway. I'd love to see more complex and well woven story as it can make or break a game.
Paper Mario: No, you can't have original characters. Now go fight Gooper Blooper for the 15th time. Mario Odyssey: Here, go help these living forks get the fat bird away from the volcano by becoming a piece of meat.
@Scott Stamp I'm sure there are exceptions for the mainline games. But it seems like the whole point of the limitation is to not dilute familiarity with characters that are core to the Mario brand so that when mainline games do come out people continue to be familiar with the traditional Mario characters. But it ends up making little sense to do this when the main Mario games end up making up novel characters anyway.
@@edgarhotard2965 I'm guessing it has to do with representation considering the mainline series can affect all Mario games, so spinoffs can base whatever from them. On the other hand, spinoffs (unless you're a very close one like Luigi's Mansion) don't have an impact on anything else. So maybe it's something like they don't want people to think Vivian can appear in the main series games.
"we don't want to abandon casual players" The first two games were extremely accessible. I'm not sure what's talking about here. If you want to make it even more accessible, add a function to auto assign badges or something? Add a difficulty mode where good stuff happens more often, like the crowd throwing health restores at you more? I don't know, it doesn't seem that difficult. Casuals will buy the game because it has Mario on the box anyway.
Hell, I'd argue that Sticker Star is far less accessible than either of the first two games. That game is so needlessly obtuse and tedious that I don't see any actual kid having the patience to get through it.
I mean honestly the puzzles in the standard battles feel like they would drive away casuals more than anything else. Casuals are drawn to things being easy to understand more than easy to play, and the ring system is weird and not very intuitive for an RPG.
@@raymondthrone7197 Tbh I wouldn't call myself "casual" and I'm almost done with the game and still struggling with the ring system, it's just not the kind of "puzzle" that comes easily.
What bothers me is the conflation between "character" and "species." "Goomba" is not a "Mario character." It's a species of characters! Making unique Goombas with names and quirky designs isn't modifying a character, it's using a species as a template and creating a brand new character! It's not the same as using a full-on *character* like Mario or Bowser as your base.
Saying you're not allowed to make new characters from a Goomba species is like saying all black characters have to be designed the exact same way. I... can you be racist to a fictional species? I dunno.
It’s more to do with them not wanting the brand of those characters/races/whatever muddied. The image of a goomba is as iconic as Bowser, so creating a modified version like the partners from Paper Mario and TTYD would weaken the brand recognition. If you put in a Bob-omb, it Has to be recognisable instantly as the exact Bob-omb model that’s been around for decades, so people see it and know what it is and buy the next mario tennis because you can play as a Bob-omb in it, and that’s their favourite character since they’ve seen it a lot before, and people tend to like what they’re familiar with.
Mario Odyssey: Full of original characters. Released almost three years ago. Luigi’s Mansion 3: Full of original characters. Released last year. Paper Mario: “It’s no longer possible to add modified or original characters to Mario.”
Mario odyssey does it because it is made by Nintendo EAD and they just do whatever fits best for gameplay. Luigi’s mansion has them because of how outrageous and un-Mario it looks.
“It’s impossible to modify characters since Sticker Star” But it’s fine to do stuff like Dr Baby Rosalina, Pink Gold Peach, Dr Goomba Tower? Yeah seems fair
*For 3rd/2nd parties iirc. Nintendo in-house can tweak stuff at their leisure but if it's an external company (like IS) they are much more regulated so that Mario isn't misrepresented by them
Maximum Addition But that’s another confusing thing because Luigi’s Mansion (although not completely considered the “Mario” series but is set within that world and uses the same characters) was able to have unique new characters and designs and all this stuff while also being with Next Level Games, who I believe isn’t in house. And to top it off Tanabe was literally the lead producer on LM3. This whole limitation seems so baffling and doesn’t seem to actually add up within the company and what they’ve been doing since the Switch dropped.
S C That’s true, and I do agree that the ghost variety wasn’t too extensive but even so those ghosts were at least somewhat new and varied designs on the ghosts established in dark moon. They weren’t radically different but they felt like an evolution of that style set in dark moon while paper Mario has been stuck on the exact same models for 8 years. Idk man, I feel like we’re maybe taking what he’s saying too seriously when in reality he’s mostly just trying to give some excuse for why they aren’t doing it for Paper Mario.
What they don't understand is that their dedicated fans started out as casuals once upon a time. The reason those kids grew into dedicated fans is because the games were engaging and imaginative. EVERYONE gets bored of something that never changes. It baffles me how out of touch Nintendo is.
Aren’t they doing the opposite of that though? The opposite of never changing? They are intentionally AVOIDING the trap of creating the same game over and over with the Paper Mario series
@thebiggestpanda1 It absolutely baffles me how you think Tanabe represents the entirety of Nintendo when he doesn’t. You completely ignore the vast majority of games Nintendo created recently with fan feedback in mind. BOTW, Mario Odyssey, Smash Ultimate, Animal Crossing New Horizons, Luigi’s Mansion 3, etc apparently don’t exist to you all because you want to say slanderous lies about Nintendo based on what one man said.
@@TheLegoMaster261 Edit: due to a mistake, Donkey Kong Fan’s comment was addressed to me, which I thought was confusing. Here’s the original so my FBI agent doesn’t have to bother looking for it: I’m not exactly sure how that applies to my comment. OP complained that Nintendo isn’t innovative, yet I claim they do the opposite to avoid the Call of Duty trap! BOTW and Mario Odyssey alone prove Nintendo is still very innovative. The only time they made the same 3D Mario game twice was Galaxy 2!
@@52flyingbicycles But that's contradiction since they made 3 Sticker Star games. Origami King is basically Color Splash 2.0. TTYD and SPM evolved the series further much more than the modern Paper Mario games. Sticker Star, Color Splash, and Origami King are really restricted compared to the OG Paper Mario games.
Technically the new Paper Mario games are part of a different series, considering that the first 2 were called Mario Story in Japan, while the new ones are called Paper Mario in Japan.
"We don't want to do the same thing twice." New Super Mario Bros New Super Mario Bros Wii New Super Mario Bros 2 New Super Mario Bros U New Super Mario Bros U Deluxe My apologies, but that's bullcrap. (made some edits due to nitpicking)
Meta Shade yeah but those were both very different from others in the series. And both have a lot to be unique from each other. Much like how both the first paper Mario and ttyd are both similar and different.
I think this game is pretty good personally. I like how they try to make each game very different. If I wanted a game similar to the other paper Mario games, id play the other paper Mario games
[Dr Death 3805] That’s not the point, the point is that the reason the first few games were so loved was because of the deeper stories and lores and more unique designs and characters and more creativity, but the recent Paper games have back pedalled on all that and become generic and way too hamfisted with the paper aesthetic, Origami King is a step up from SS and CS but still doesn’t have the same level of quality as the first three games.
Also nintendo's hypocritical Nintendo: We wanna have cool new ideas and implement creative features! Fans: You know you could channel that creative energy into the world building, story, and chara- Nintendo: *no*
I don’t understand why they’re cool with their in-house devs going crazy with new and weird stuff like Odyssey but post-2008 they seem to keep their second party devs/partners at gunpoint. They should be able to clearly see that people respond well and like when Mario goes unique and weird
you say this as if its anything new. nintendo always had a hate relashionship with second party devs. to the point some ended up despising the company due to that double standards.
@@notenoughgarlic Do you seriously think that Miyamoto is anti-original characters? This smells like corporate bullshit way more than anything else to me.
That's not exactly what they mean, the quote says they can't modify existing Mario characters and races to be their own unique characters now, so something like Goombella or Kooper wouldn't be allowed, but a new original character of its own race that isn't tied to the rest of the Mario universe would be, like Vivian or Olly/Olivia.
NO! Super’s story being absolutely balls to the wall insane was what made that game memorable, I remember Count Bleck, I remeber Dimentio, I remember the fucking desth of the universe.
i mean if you count levels then that would be false, but when it comes to only entities (enemies, powerups, etc.) then it just feels like nintendo got lazy
This made me realize a game like Super Mario RPG would never fly in this day and age. Forget Paper Mario and Mario and Luigi which modify a few enemies and added a few unique species, Super Mario RPG just started the game with a talking sword falling into Bowser's castle, a superboss ripped straight from Final Fantasy, and basically almost all original enemies and bosses.
@antimatter30, "A game like Super Mario RPG would never fly in this day and age". Mario Rabbids Kingdom Battle and Dream Team say otherwise. Also, I think you're downplaying the Mario Luigi series. *Plenty* of unique species and characters are introduced. Look at Bowser's Inside Story.
@@Mario87456 Why do you always keep blaming Tanabe for everything? You're aware that he worked on the first three Paper Mario games as well? These decisions are because of other people, not just him.
@@Mario87456 blame Miyamoto as well then. He always had a large input on how Mario games or any Nintendo games are created (remember how he screwed over Platinum games with Star Fox Zero). I love Miyamoto and what he has done for the gaming industry but he can really be stingy and very backwards at times when he is at the helms and giving his input. Which is why I'm glad when new blood takes over the reins at Nintendo and actually makes a franchise more refreshing and fun to play in the first place.
I love the implication that experience points aren't casual friendly. Ah yes, defeating an enemy to fill a meter is so hardcore, definitely not casual friendly at all. Pokemon is regarded as a kid's game. Exp is the most important thing in that game. So intense. So hardcore.
Pokemon is actually a great example (maybe not the most recent ones, IDK). Its simple to pick up but difficult to master, so there's something for everyone. Why can't this series be like that?
Here's the thing about this whole "casual" thing. Paper Mario: Sticker Star and Color Splash aren't even casual-friendly games. Like, at all. They have bullshit unnecessary inventory management, counter-intuitive ideas where avoiding battles is actually beneficial, trial-and-error puzzles where you have to have a specific Thing which discourages using them in battle... And don't even get me started on the battle controls of Color Splash. These games are complex in their own weird nonsensical ways, which are much more of a turnoff for casuals than some basic RPG elements.
... ... ... *shouts from far off* color splash had button controls in the menu, people just never checked and hated on the game as if it didn't! ... ... ...
@@Zeckle11 Color Splash isn't really all that awful. Now, don't take my word for it, as I've never had the fortune to play the original 3 Paper Mario games, but the inventory management in CS wasn't terrible. It was actually pretty easy to use and was simplified massively by the 'Sort' button. I do agree that the card system was unnecessary, but the battles in CS weren't actually beneficial to avoid, as battling gave you paint scraps, a form of XP. Honestly, though, paint scraps were a largely unnecessary kind of XP. The Thing cards were always freely given to you, and if you felt like you were coming up on a hard boss battle, you could visit the Know-It-All toad to find out a hint on what Thing you might want, also having a place to freely get the Thing cards right in Port Prisma (for a price). In conclusion, CS isn't as terrible as you think. I've got no excuses for Sticker Star though.
You know what else is un-intuitive? Boss fights with 1 hit kill moves if you don't have the exact THING in your inventory. That is such a STUPID design choice that it put me off buying colour splash and TOK. Having the correct thing should be a reward that makes battles easier for being conservative, not a life or death requirement!
Here's a giant piece to the puzzle I want to add to your discussion Arlo - Nintendo EPD is VERY likely the division who is enforcing this rule. Like you mentioned, the games from EPD are not under the rule of using only pre-established characters, like we see in Super Mario Odyssey. Not only do Nintendo EPD make games and consoles, they also manage and license properties, alongside producing and supervising development for contracted studios. It's basically the "Nintendo" we think of, when we say Nintendo. And one of the rules they made with all their "contracted studios" was only using pre-established Mario characters, MEANING characters from EPD. That's why Intelligent Systems not only can't make new original characters, but also why they can't use old characters outside of EPD, like for example from Super Paper Mario or The Thousand Year Door, since those are games not made from Nintendo EPD. This is the EXACT line that has been made. That's also why you don't see other characters from outside EPD in Mario Sports games like Mario Aces. It's all old characters from EPD. It kinda makes sense if you think about it. Nintendo EPD probably wants control over one of their most valuable IP's, and don't want people to think the Mario world is any different than the way they imagine it. And they are of course not going to put the restrictions on themselves. That's why they can make new characters, whereas others can't. And in situations like mobile apps and theme parks, this rule MAKES SENSE. Letting other people control your universe can be scary, and could potentially damage your IP. But in the case of Paper Mario (and other games) it's really sad, because it hurts the games. And I think it ironically damages the Mario IP more, than it protects it.
What in the world? Huh, I had no idea Nintendo used to be so... partitioned. Mario Wiki says Nintendo EPD (Entertainment Planning & Development) was a merger that occured between Nintendo EAD (Entertainment Analysis & Development, the main one) and Nintendo SPD (Software Planning & Development, the various spinoff ones, including Tanabe's dept.) that happened around the time of Super Mario Maker. But of course, you can see this tightening of the IP in many games leading up to the merger, too - WarioWare having nothing to do with Wario Land, Super Paper Mario having no new "Mario-ish" characters, and even Donkey Kong Country Returns and its controversial removal of the Kremlings. (And before anyone mentions it, the Kremlings are all owned by Nintendo and have nothing to do with Rare, which is why Kritters kept appearing in some Mario sports games. The situation with DKC Returns just coincided with Rare's acquisition by Microsoft, which understandably confused people for a long time about the legal status of K. Rool & Co.)
@@baconlabs "...WarioWare having nothing to do with Wario Land..." In WarioWare Twisted, in the beginning of Wario's story you can see the Music Box from Wario Land 3, as well as a picture of the Golden Pyramid from Wario Land 4. (and that's not even mentioning that WarioWare Inc.: Mega Microgame$ had a Wario Land 1 Microgame and borrowed some music from Wario Land 4) Of course, stuff like that hasn't really happened since. Kind of sucks, it's like Wario Land and WarioWare are two different universes.
To be honest, I feel the same way. But in the end, it's the decision of the higher ups, and they probably care more about brand recognition and stability than creativity and active risk-taking. The designers would like to try more creative ideas and give us a title that is a true sequel to Thousand Year Door, but in the end, it's Miyamoto's creation, basically his child. And if he doesn't want to do something like that, we have to respect him. Kinda sad but it's understandable.
@@stefanmorgan5378 I think that Miyamoto is just being an overprotective parent. Mario is grown up now, and he's ready to go out into the world and try new things. Stifling ideas that aren't your own is not the way to keep your franchise fresh and enjoyable.
@@ButtonMasherReal Still, that is the most difficult part about handling an IP or characters from an established franchise. If you are the creator, you gotta make sure that what is being put on store shelves still fits the established lore and characters you have, accurately portrays your vision of the game's world, and still appeals to the needs of fans. Yeah sure, Miyamoto is being very protective and I agree with the point you're making. There are loads of ways the Paper Mario series can improve without rehashing old ideas, making the story overcomplicated, or giving up on casual players and/or hardcore fans. But if Miyamoto doesn't see them, or sees them and doesn't agree with how he wants to establish the Paper Mario universe, then we are just going to have to accept that. It sucks, it really does.
Games really should get out of a element of it "have" to be the character from the original game. And the fact that they said come back with a open mind is rediculous. Everyone does have creativity somewhere but if all games and stuff keeps holding it back from the past where it "had" to be "original" then the world if just ganna constantly lose creativity. It's better to just let things go and let anyone be fully creative otherwise you might lose millions of people that trusted you all these years. Now if I made a paper Mario game from scratch for example to fix the RPG mess how about make it a puzzle and (old paper mario) rpg put together like have a throw hammer that hits the back 4 enemies but you need like 4 BP or maybe have some sort of slider badge that solves 3 moves ahead, but you don't get the damage bonus. Something like that. It seems lately the whole "old gen" world is just hold the young brains back that we wanna try all these things and yet they don't want us to and we have no choice but to respect their stuff cuase if we don't they know a way to keep us back. It's a problem in the world that is happening right now no one isn't cooperating much everyone just wants to hold the past and it's just isn't worth it. (I had to type this whole thing to get all my frustrations about what's happening in the world) But hopefully someone understands what I'm trying to say.
Stefan Morgan the thing is that other developers can say No. Sakurai has debated with Miyamoto before regarding Kirby’s initial design and Koizumi added Rosalina’s backstory behind Shiggy’s back
@@diogenessilviocemartins9019 to be fair: they may be office supplies, but they got one heck of a character for themselves and are literally the most fun thing in that game.
I didn't. But now that the thought's in my head it makes daft sense. I guess we're getting into a "Nintendo's sitting too pretty and isn't willing to risk anything anymore" phase... Maybe Paper Mario will get better the next time "Nintendo's doomed"
"We do hear you. And since you're being such bitches. We've decided to add microtransactions to all of our games. To compensate. We will make the 17 remaining Punch Out fans happy. And we will be making a new Punch Out game. There's only 17 right?"
@@yo1214 the only difference is that the Paper Mario devs actually suffer for it, because less fans are buying their games. The pokemon devs can do whatever they want, despite the backlash, because sales aren’t exactly a problem for them.
Matthew C I’m more than halfway in the game and I can say for sure now that my top 3 favorite games are n64 paper Mario ttyd and origami king. It’s a really decent game you should give it a try.
@@luism8612 I'm not even gonna bullshit you: I'm only really interested in humoring Paper Mario if it's as mechanically, RPG-deep as Thousand Year Door was. All I see that "battle mechanic" as is a reason to _avoid every battle I don't have to take;_ which is a colossal step _backwards_ in comparison to "jumping out to take every fight you can in TYD because you finally got the timing right on that super-move you just unlocked".
They just need to be pressed on that specific line. I wish they did. "WHY is it no longer possible to modify Mario characters or to create original characters that touch on the Mario universe?" That's all I want in this world.
Odds are its brand related garbage. Like keeping the brand 'cohesive'. Depending on how Nintendo is internally structured, certain departments may or may not have certain privileges or access or 'time to convince people they're worthwhile', or something. Another, is brand consolidation. They don't want ANYONE but a 100% integrated house doing anything out of fear of splits, mergers or whatever, causing even PARTS of the Nintendo brand to end up in ANYONE's hands. Even if it's such a tiny fraction it's functionally worthless. The end point is the same: Dumb stupid.
Ummmmm Did you see what Sega did to Captain Falcon and his new band of original characters?? Nintendo is the parent who doesn't let their kids go to other kids' homes after "the pants ripping incident."
AverageJoe5050 it’s not going to another kids house, it’s creating new ones or modifying already existing ones. If this didn’t happen we wouldn’t have geno or any other Nintendo character. Having to use generic Nintendo character number 23 is really dumb and limiting. Plus we already got original characters from newer Nintendo games. Not saying you’re disagreeing with me, just venting.
Jackoski 19 I'm just venting too. Allowing an established universe to expand can be a blessing and a curse, it's simply the nature of change. Though it's especially scary when you let a guest play with your ideas. Sometimes you get a Breath of the Wild. Sometimes you get a Faces of Evil CD-i.
AverageJoe5050 I think it’s very important that they let their devs try out new things. They can’t just rely on the same characters forever. Certain ones like Mario and Zelda you can. But you always have to be inventive, without it we wouldn’t have gotten Mario in the first place.
A paraphrased quote from Ant-Dude. Edited for this context. "This game suffers from an identity crisis. It either wants to emulate what made the franchise great in the first place, or wants to make sure each *game* is different just for the sake of every *game* being different regardless if the *gimmicks* are *any good*. Spoiler. It didn't really work." But in this case, they're absolutely going for the latter.
Gimmicks aren't necessarily bad. The problem with Nintendo is that they like to shove ALL their gimmicks down your throat. The good ones AND the bad ones.
*Starless I mean that would be true... if Color Splash had actually sold really well. Only .186 million units later, I don’t get this interview at all. From a business standpoint, it’s really stupid to not only make a sequel to a game barely anybody liked, I.E. Sticker Star to Color Splash, not even fix any of the big problems, and then release another game of a very similar style after the one before sold horribly. Imagine instead of Super Mario Odyssey, we got another 3D World style game. Would it have sold as well as Odyssey is doing right now? I like to think that game sells as well as it does not just because it went back to try refine an older formula, the sandbox Mario, but also because... it just looks interesting. Mario could interact with realistic humans, snail people, and those weird fish ladies. You could capture these plants with extendable legs, tanks, heck even capturing basic Mario enemies is a ton of fun. It’s weird, it’s wild, no other Mario game(at the moment at least) has these sorts of things. Origami King does however. I mean yeah it has enemies turned into origami, but that doesn’t change the fact they’re still basic Mario enemies. There are characters that have important roles in the story, but again it’s still as simple as a Bob-omb without a fuse or toad in an Archaeologist outfit. Interacting with series staple like Kamek, Bowser, and Jr. is admittedly pretty cool. But they are still old characters we’ve seen before. Should probably say I actually really enjoy Origami King, I think it’s a great game. It’s just it’s lack of visual diversity, which is now a rule for some reason, is going to hurt the sales of not only Paper Mario, but Mario as a whole. That’s why everybody beats the NSMB series to a pulp; they all look and feel the same.
“We cannot modify Mario characters anymore.” Pink Gold Peach Dr Baby Rosalina/Peach/Daisy Dr Fire Luigi Gold Dry Bowser Gold Dry Bones Luigi (Classic) Rosalina (swimsuit) Wario (hiker) Mario (hakama) (breathes deeply) *OK NINTENDO*
Intelligent systems (the people who made the last 3 paper Mario games) is a 3rd party company. Mario kart tour is made by Nintendo themselves, they have the right to modify.
@@Skyfin101 They didn't remake it, they ported over a nearly 7 year old game. 7 years of not having another NSMB game, a series that had games release within the same years of each other.
@@certifiedidiocracy8036 nah I think miyamoto got to them too. That's why paper jam recycles old characters unlike older games and have only made remakes since then. Now their bankrupt v
These developers are so out-of-touch. Reminds me of when Junichi Masuda claimed that they don't make "jerk" Pokemon rivals anymore because due to the newer graphics, they don't have to have strong personalities to convey emotion. Like what on earth is that reasoning?
I think his point (still kinda dumb) is that with the ability to see crazy facial expressions, they dont need to be over the top jerks. Think HGSS, the face of your rival is like 10 pixels. He needed to be angry otherwise he would be SO bland. In the newer games they can make almost human facial expressions, but that doesnt mean they should have good personalities.
well, they kinda fixed that issue with Bede, he's kinda a 'jerk' rival, until he has a change of heart at the end, and that could very well be character growth thanks to Ms. opal.
That's a total contradiction and a really dumb excuse. Unless it's a confession that they just port animations from the 3DS games and stick em in the new ones. And it doesn't even make sense because there are still jerky characters in Pokemon
@@Mario87456 excluding Sakurai tho. Who in the world doesn't like that man? Everytime he does a smash direct showcasing the fighters himself, it's always so wholesome and the community just loves that shit. I wish certain other developers were like that in the media
EDIT 2: Thanks for reading my absurdly long comment, y’all. I just wanted to post a big reminder up here that it’s all speculation at the end of the day. I've also come to believe that there are likely many other factors beyond just Miyamoto's involvement. As a side note, the Iwata Asks archive isn't actually "broken" as I originally thought and the "treatment of Bowser" quote is actually something Tanabe said in the Sticker Star I.A. So the Dream Team stuff is pure speculation on my part. Apologies for the mistake. Original comment follows: It’s Miyamoto. It’s always been Miyamoto. At least, there’s copious evidence for it. This will be very long, but if anyone cares to know why things went the way they did with Paper Mario and the Mario RPGs in general, I believe I have a pretty solid evidence-based theory (and clearly too much time on my hands). The Sticker Star Iwata Asks interview makes it pretty clear cut how much Miyamoto “persevered” with the series, as Iwata says, and what he wanted in terms of characters and story (and this is Miyamoto, these aren’t just “suggestions” when the man is treated like a god at the company), but in an interview about Color Splash with Game Informer from 2016 (“Afterwords-Paper Mario: Color Splash” if you want to google it), Tanabe reiterates how he is just respecting Miyamoto’s wishes when asked about the generic character designs. The “no longer possible” phrasing is scary, but I think it’s just a translation thing and his meaning is likely the same as “no longer allowed”, or basically just another reiteration of the "rules" except not throwing Miyamoto under the bus with fans this time. But it goes much deeper than that. If you look at the timeline of Mario RPGs and Mario games overall, there is a very clear turnover when things started to take a turn for the more homogenized and less varied and creative, basically after the success of New Super Mario Bros. and Super Mario Galaxy, the latter of which, while very creative in a lot of ways, was also the 3D Mario to bring back a lot of familiar classic aesthetic elements after the deviant Super Mario Sunshine. After this point, the main Mario series went from being almost as diverse as the Zelda franchise to largely a series of derivative sequels and nostalgic throwbacks until Odyssey breathed some much needed life into it a decade after Galaxy first hit the scene. Then we have the RPGs, typically always where Mario could be free to really get weird and different, but that also began to change after Super Paper Mario in 2007 and Bowser’s Inside Story in 2009. There was Sticker Star in 2012 of course, but then there was Mario & Luigi: Dream Team in 2013, a game with plenty of new characters and non-standard elements, sure, but *spoiler warning if you haven't played it* also a very awkward shoehorning of Bowser into the story, where he uncharacteristically steals the spotlight from the game’s original antagonist instead of the other way around, as had been par for the course for the RPGs up to that point. I recall reading an interview at the time (probably the Iwata Asks for Dream Team, which I’d confirm but the Iwata Asks archive seems to be completely broken these days) where the developers made a comment about Miyamoto being critical of the way they’d treated Bowser in the past, perhaps alluding to the RPGs' long history of tending to treat Bowser like a joke or an afterthought, or alternatively as an anti-hero, which perhaps Miyamoto didn't like. Fast-forward to 2015 and we have Mario & Luigi: Paper Jam, an instance of Sticker Star’s influence *literally* invading the Mario & Luigi series, and while admittedly a game I never played because of how bland it looked, seemed by all accounts to basically be the “Sticker Star” of Mario & Luigi games, featuring a homogenized cast of characters, the Koopalings, bog-standard environments…all that stuff many of us have come to know and loathe. Afterwards we got "cleaned up" remakes of Superstar Saga and BIS, which make alterations to the more novel character designs from the original games, homogenizing the toads and giving certain enemies like the Hammer Bros. their now standard design. Games like Super Paper Mario and BIS might have just gone too far and felt “not Mario” anymore to Miyamoto, deviating too greatly from the way he envisions the world and characters he originally created, and as Tanabe put it, leading the games “away from the Mario universe”, so he reined them in. There's also the fact that Miyamoto has on numerous occasions demonstrated that he really doesn't think Mario and involved stories mix, and apparently even when it comes to the RPGs, so just the very instance of a Mario game having a story at all might be seen as getting "away from the Mario universe" to Miyamoto. He might have also just wanted to simplify and homogenize the whole Mario family to keep things neat and simple. Miyamoto seems to like simplicity to an extent, and mainly seems to focus on game mechanics to an extreme degree, so anything that doesn’t underlie those mechanics in some way or draw their “form from function” as has been discussed in the past might seem extraneous and contemptible to him. I’ve long had a theory that for the last decade or so perhaps only the core Super Mario series (games like 3D World and Odyssey) have been allowed by Miyamoto to introduce original elements, or perhaps Miyamoto simply trusts Yoshiaki Koizumi and his developers with the brand, whereas Tanabe broke that trust with the previous Paper Mario weirdness he got away with. So Koizumi gets to have New Donkers and Steam Gardeners and Tanabe has to strain to make a sea of identical toads stand out. Maybe I’m going too far into the realm of speculation now, but at the very least it does seem that Paper Mario *uniquely* has to play it safe at the moment. It's possible the Switch era marks a change in this policy, and perhaps at this point the PM series is just stuck in a rut in this regard that Sticker Star put it in...Miyamoto might not even actively be requesting generic characters anymore, but Tanabe and company might just assume or are used to this way now. Look, I know people love Miyamoto and it might be hard to accept that he might be the main reason why one of their favorite series drastically lost its way, and I don’t want to start a hate train on Miyamoto with all this. The man is a legend, and deserves plenty of respect, but I’m of the opinion that series like Mario and Zelda have grown beyond him, and now have a variety of people that can be called their “creators” in a sense. *Especially* a spin-off like Paper Mario, which Miyamoto ultimately probably had little actual creative involvement in by the time of TTYD and SPM, when it really established its unique identity. In addition, I don’t think that the problem is that Miyamoto is a terrible meddler with terrible ideas, but rather he’s an eccentric creative mind that like all creatives can have good ideas and bad ideas. The real problem is how much power he has, and how often he’s gone unquestioned due to the enormous amount of respect he garners at the company. Any time one person has this much creative power in this kind of situation, it can lead to trouble. So basically, while I’m sure Tanabe certainly has a good amount of say in the direction of these games, he far from deserves all the blame (not saying that’s what Arlo is doing, for the record, just speaking generally). When Tanabe says “the elaborate story led the game away from the Mario universe” and immediately follows it with “personally, I like games with stories” (note the *personally* here), to me that sounds like, “look, I liked the more involved storytelling too, but my hands are tied here”. That said, he does seem to genuinely have a ton of respect for Miyamoto, so he may be content with working within these restrictions, for better or worse (…for worse in my opinion, obviously). Also, in addition to everything I’ve discussed about Miyamoto’s role in all this, the simple fact that the staff making Paper Mario now is mostly entirely different than the original staff of the first three is a major factor that many people are either unaware of or frequently ignore. For me, the Mario series should be a creative canvas open to pretty much anything, which is exactly what it used to be, so I am strongly opposed to any kind of muting of the series’ creativity in these ways, but I just wanted to offer some possible, reasonable explanations as a longtime, somewhat jaded but still passionate Nintendo fan who can’t help but see all the patterns after following all this junk for so long. For now, I’ve personally made the decision to just not buy these new PM games if I still see these frustrating restrictions in place. Origami King looks pretty cool in many ways and a definite improvement from SS and CS in terms of characterization, storytelling, and environments from what I've seen and heard, so I’ll try to pick it up used at a discount much later, but the most effective way to really tell Nintendo I’m unhappy with the fact that the developers aren't allowed to alter a toad or make an original character design for flip's sake is to just not give them my money, even if the impact of such might ultimately be minute. If you actually got through all this, thanks for reading. And please join me in now taking a much-needed break from the Nintendo bubble for a little while. EDIT: I found another important, potentially illuminating detail. It might not be solely Miyamoto to blame, but rather a "quality assurance" team (that likely includes Miyamoto) assigned to keeping tabs on the Mario series. This comment is already too long for youtube, so I had to post the details of this discovery in the comments below this post.
Tried to add an important edit, but my thesis here is already too long I think because youtube won't let me lol So I'll post it here instead. After some more research (thanks to a tip from twitter user "TheCJBrine" who commented on Arlo's tweet with this video), I found a resetera thread about this interview where someone shared a quote from an apparent "insider" called "Aquamarine" who supposedly said this a few years back: "Here's the truth: Nintendo has a quality assurance team whose goal is to make sure that all of the characters and worlds stay consistent. It was established after the early Wii era...people like Miyamoto noticed around 2009-ish that Nintendo contractors like Camelot / Alphadream / Intelligent Systems were getting a little too liberal with their interpretations of the Mario IP...so now they watch over everything and establish standards. It's this team that prevents Waluigi from appearing outside of sports games." While the source is incredibly nebulous, the timeline adds up here, and I'm inclined to believe there's some truth in this. So perhaps it's not solely Miyamoto's personal wishes, but rather a team (perhaps lead by him or at least including him) that keeps tabs on the Mario series after games like Super Paper Mario went too far off the rails (which makes me love and appreciate that game all the more). No one except the devs themselves can say for sure, but if this is true, I can partly understand why they'd want to be extra careful with Mario and not just let any outside party do anything with the series, but...sort of like Arlo said, they "overcorrected". The ironic thing is that, if this is all true, this "quality assurance" had the exact opposite effect in my opinion, leading to a lot of "too safe", stale, and rather bland games that ended up damaging the brand in my opinion. A new Mario game doesn't seem to carry as much weight these days, and I think that is in part because of games like the New Super Mario Bros. series and 3D Land/World, which are definitely not "bad" by any means, but even 3D World (definitely the most spirited of the bunch) is highly derivative of past games in many regards. And I obviously don't need to mention here how much less exciting and how troubled the Mario "RPGs" are these days. Of course, I'm speaking from the game enthusiast bubble, and perhaps none of this matters to Nintendo if games like the "New" series sold very well, which they did. Luckily, Odyssey also sold super well, which is such a relief to me, and hopefully means at least the main series will continue down a creative path. So much for that "Nintendo break" I guess! This whole Paper Mario situation is just one of the most bizarre in Nintendo's history.
I want to copy and paste this entire body of text for future reference but YT Mobile won't let me :( Hopefully I'll be able to track this comment down later on my PC, or... *HEY ARLO!* would you mind pinning this comment?
There is a quote: You either die a hero or live long enough to see yourself become the villain. Miyamoto is doing just that. He was the hero of Nintendo... but is slowly becoming the villain and center piece which led to Paper Mario now being forced to cause half the community to suffer at any given choice.
Very good essay but I say that Bowser inclusion in Dream Team was actually genius as it actually develops his character from the previous game as his jealously and growth as a villian finally allowed to one up the antagonist of the game, and Dreamy Bowser was just awesome design wise.
@@maorivirs8752 I'm not so sure. The interview definitely made it sound more like they were physically unable to do it, not that they were making a creative decision. I would be very surprised if they were willingly choosing to make stuff like the Oragami King boss fights. It seems like way more of a frustrating decision on Nintendo's part than anything else, forcing these spinoffs to be less creative than they would be otherwise.
@@dracocrusher that might be true, but it doesn't explain the jab towards fans Spoilers In the ending, king olly wanted to kill all the toads because one toad did something to him and "all the toads are the same" plus, the company said a long time ago they wanted to create something else. Very suspicious
@@maorivirs8752 I don't think being forced into it and disliking being criticised are mutually exclusive ideas, anyone can be irritated by backlash no matter the circumstance. It is really dumb that that's in the game, though, because it feels like he's saying "This is what the fans are like".
Or FZero. That’s the same excuse why we can’t have a modern refresher on that. “We don’t know anything new we can do with FZero”. Sometimes you don’t need new. You need what people want.
What really frustrates me with nintendo's persistence on accessibility is that it can be easily solved just by adding a difficulty option, its literally that simple. Easy mode for casuals and normal and hard mode for everybody else. So many AAA titles already do this so its all the more baffling that nintendo willingly chooses to compromise the entire gameplay experience when the solution is right there
@Ghost_Troupe Nintendo has shown that they're fully capable of having difficulty options, notable example being some of the zelda tites (granted some of the hard modes were activated after beating the games which I think is stupid). Its not some foreign concept to them, so I when I play nintendo games that are too easy for their own good (luigi's mansion 3), I wonder why a simple hard mode couldn't suffice lol
@Multi Hardcore who said anything about different gameplay style? There are so many simple touches that they could do to make the entire experience of a game more challenging. Increase enemy health pool, make the player take more damage, makes essentials like health pickups less abundant, the list goes on...
Nintendo is targeted to children. It is a codex etablished back when they decided the strategy for the NES. And it never changed, but it got expanded when the WII lured in the casual gamers. And when something works Nintendo runs it to the death. Games need to be accessible, easy and with a low learning curve to have success with their two targets.
@Multi Hardcore yeah those game might be a lost cause lol, tho I think luigi mansion 3's main flaw (its difficulty) could have been fixed had it included a hard mode
@kaymyu You know what's sad? Some of their other series like Animal Crossing, Smash Bros. and Kirby for example, just keep improving and tweaking the main formula instead of completely shifting the basic mechanics and they please both old fans and new fans alike. Stuff like Return to Dreamland, Triple Deluxe, Planet Robobot and Star Allies. Star Allies had some problems in the release, but they released dozens of new content. That's a good way to threat both new and old fans alike.
Personally I do not consider myself a fan of Paper Mario anymore since Sticker Star, the series is a fucking mess and that's just sad because a game like PM/TTYD is one of my biggest gaming wishes. (SPM was also very good, despite being different) Also, RIP Mario & Luigi series, there's basically no Mario Themed RPGs now for RPG enthusiasts since Nintendo keeps shifting the formula of one, and the other is pretty much dead. Guess I'll just stick to Bug Fables for now.
kaymyu “They want to make THEIR game that THEY want” How and why is it a bad thing for a game developer to make the game they want to make. If they don’t want to do TTYD formula, then why should they do it? Why would they make a game FOR TTYD fans and not enjoy making it when they could just as easily make a game they enjoy making that is also enjoyed by fans of the newer Paper Mario formula.
Here's my opinion on this interview: It is definitely frightening, but it is also a symptom of a real problem; Nintendo doesn't like how contract developers expand upon the Mario brand. Apparently, there was a rumor going around on twitter explaining that the reason why the Mario world has to be kept "consistent" was because Nintendo created a watchdog team in response to how many contract developers making games for the Mario IP were taking more creative liberties than what the Big N would like. Their purpose is to apparently railroad developers into keeping with already established Mario conventions for the world and that they are not allowed to take as many creative liberties outside of one-shot characters. As suspicious as this rumor is, I definitely believe for it to be true because of the demise of one company: AlphaDream. Prior to this team established during the Wii era, AlphaDream had expanded heavily upon the Marioverse with their games; Superstar Saga introduced the BeanBean Kingdom, Partners in Time introduced the Shroobs, Bowser's Inside Story expanded upon the lore of the Mushroom Kingdom and Dream Team (despite being a game developed post-team creation) established a lore involving dreams and nightmares in the Mushroom Kingdom. After these four games? AlphaDream made Paper Jam, which felt significantly less ambitious with its world and characters, and the next two games were remakes! Superstar Saga was a needed remake, but Bowser's Inside Story was not needed whatsoever, yet they remade it despite it being one of the worst ideas ever. But why? This is where the idea of a Mario Watchdog team by Nintendo starts making sense; after their development of Dream Team concluded, this team more than likely forced AlphaDream into either creating new Mario games with new guidelines or remake older games. That would explain why explain why this once thriving developer was forced into making mediocrity and ended up dying from it. Keep in mind that this team only goes after contracted developers working on specifically Mario-branded games. This means that Mario Odyssey is excluded because the core Mario team can freely expand upon the lore of the Mario games and games like Luigi's Mansion and WarioWare are excluded because they are not specifically Mario-branded games despite having Mario characters in them. It's all about Brand Protection when it comes to this team, and Tanabe's words allude to how the existence of such a team exists.
I can understand that, probably trying to prevent something like Boshi(and arguably any Paper Mario or any AlphaDream characters) from Super Mario RPG from happening since they only own the rights to the Species but NOT the characters designed off the species. Hence why unless Nintendo buys the rights to those characters or a game is made by that studio, they can use those characters but Nintendo cannot. Hence why none of the Paper Mario + AlphaDream characters appear in Mario Kart or Mario Party (Hurts a lil ngl cause I really love Prince Dreambert,, he's probs one of my favorite Mario characters)
@@abyss1315 The good news is that Nintendo absorbed the rights to M&L after AlphaDream died, so it's possible to see M&L characters in Mario spinoffs. The bad news is that AlphaDream had to die for that to happen. RIIIIIIIIP
@@abyss1315 So the whole Square issue still haunts Nintendo to this day and they don't want the same to happen with Intelligent Systems and AlphaDream. This prevents Mario spinoff series by other companies to freely develop creatively unlike back then.
The funny thing is, as a "casual gamer" who really only plays life sims and farming games... these new gimmicky Paper Mario games don't appeal to me at all.
I’m sorry if I was unclear, I played paper mario sticker star as a child, I’ve played lots of games targeted toward casual gamers, not just life sim/farming. I personally don’t enjoy the route paper mario has taken after learning about the original games, but it’s ok if you guys do!
That phrasing doesn’t even make sense either, are they implying that back in 2004 when TTYD came out that they were making that to appeal to the most hardcore, not-children/family gamers they could? No, that’s obviously absurd. How are those games any less casual than these? It just doesn’t make sense
Whoa, whoa, whoa...people didn't like Super Paper Mario's story? Its arguably the best part of the game. Also, PLEASE leave Metroid Prime out of this. You guys are starting to worry me about MP4.
They THOUGHT people didn't like Super Paper Mario's story ... but that result was from asking only Club Nintendo members. Which is way too narrow a group and infuriating as hell that they took that to mean "Paper Mario fans."
Yeah Nintendo has me worried about MP4 as well. I'm not even a huge fan of the original or anything, but I can totally see them trying to 'do something new' or 'innovate the series' and completely ruin it. It's so hit or miss with Nintendo IPs these days.
I believe they are also twisting the data from the poll from " x% said the story was their favourite thing about SPM" to get to "y% didn't like the story of SPM"
I remember filling out a survey thing as a review after I beat it and registered it for my Nintendo points or whatever (I had just graduated High School at the time). And the questions were set up in the "how important is a big high stakes story to you?" format with the spectrum of "don't want it" to "it doesn't matter" to "it has to be super soap opera!" responses and then a comment box. I put "it doesn't matter to me" and filled in something to the tune of "the story doesn't matter so much about what it is or what is at stake or how big it has to be, so long as it's *there* and gives us interesting places and characters and good lines of dialogue". Obviously, they interpreted my input to mean that "story is garbage, take it out of my Paper Mario games!!!!" because whoever was doing data analysis obviously wanted to take story out of Paper Mario games and interpreted responses how they wanted. I also said made mention that the problem was trying to mix platforming game and RPG genres together in ways that didn't really mix well, and that was why I marked it lower than previous Paper Mario games and that it should stick to the RPG origins. *shrug*
Random interviewer on the street: “At it’s core, what are the paper Mario games to you” Literally every paper Mario fan ever: “a really fun RPG” Tanabe: *WRONG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!*
Disturbing isn’t quite a strong enough word. Nintendo wants to “always do something new” but then stifle creativity so hard at every turn and then seem confused when some games are received so poorly.
Sorry I’m late but I’m not sure why you are putting the blame on Nintendo as if they developed the Paper Mario games? I mean I can talk to you about other things that most people don’t talk about. Arlo seems to be confused on this and felt “disturbed”, which I 100% agree with, HOWEVER; people are thinking on what Tanabe has said and himself represent Nintendo as a whole but I don’t see anyone complaining about this more towards Tanabe and Intelligent Systems. Tanabe is the main reason why Paper Mario has this “downfall” it has been since Sticker Star.
@@Mojo1356 Makes no sense when the three “newer” games had Miyamoto as a supervisor while Tanabe was a producer since he’s the one making the decisions and seems to be more interviewed than other people working on Paper Mario since he’s responsible for it. Even Miyamoto was a supervisor for Dream Team and most of the game’s decisions were made by AlphaDream and even that game came out a year after Sticker Star. You don’t see interviews on Miyamoto on his involvement with Paper Mario nowadays because he clearly isn’t the one making the decisions and isn’t the one responsible for it. Super Mario Galaxy 2 had him be involved with the development and made the decisions, and even he was interviewed since he’s responsible for it. It goes the same for Tanabe. If Miyamoto was really responsible for Sticker Star, why wasn’t he the one that made decisions in the games like Color Splash, because he was not part of the games development and Tanabe is responsible for it. If Miyamoto was more involved in the game and was the producer who made the decisions, than yes it can be his fault but here it’s not.
Do you listen to fan feedback? Tanabe: “Yes, but to those people I say, there’s so much new stuff in these games. That should be enough for you. Stop complaining about old stuff, k thanks bye.”
Mario RPG, Super Paper Mario, and origami king had far superior combat compared to the slow slog of endless backtracking that was Mario 64 and ttyd. Ttyd. Chapter 1, way too slow, easy and boring. Chapter 2,4,7 non-stop backtracking and useless dialogue. Chapter 3 is 23 glorified random battles. Restricting the already slow battles was so stupid. Chapter 6 was ok but you do pretty much nothing but talk to characters and win. Chapter 7 tries to hype you up but it's so bland and just a series of tedious tasks. Palace of shadows is hours of reskinned bowser's castle from Mario 64 which was pretty much stolen from smithy and bowser's invaded castle. ttyd and 64 story and battle are shit compared to rpg, super, And origami
So you're upset that the developers get to do what they want to make it fun, instead of forcing the same people to make the same game year after year? I hope you like flipping patties because that's all you'll be doing because we the fans only want you to make hamburgers. You aren't allowed to make anything else, only hamburgers the rest of your life.
I think this points to the issue with the "bringing something new" argument. Mario Odyssey brings new ideas and mechanics, but it unquestionably plays like a sequel to Mario 64. SS/CS/TOK don't feel like they're sequels to 64/TTYD. The problem isn't that the games aren't "TTYD clones," it's that they don't even feel like they're part of the same series anymore. If you like that change, that's fine. There's nothing wrong with liking the new games. But people don't want a TTYD clone. They just want to play a game that feels like it's part of the same series.
Finally, someone points out THIS!! Like, I don't want an Ocarina of Time clone but for me personally, Breath of the Wild just didn't feel like Zelda and wasn't my cup of tea. I want a sequel to more old-school 3D Zeldas...so while I don't really care what form Paper Mario takes, I do so very much understand the pain that fanbase feels. *looks up* OMG I'm not even the only one who brought up Zelda. That's crazy, I'm usually so alone in this!
There's a broader discussion regarding the character stuff in the greater context of Mario Spinoffs in general. There's even a lot with how characters are portrayed. Mario Strikers Charged probably cannot exist in the same way after roughly the release of Mario Galaxy which is where they started to have a tighter grip on the Mario Brand.
Now that you mention it, strikers charged may have been a contributing factor to this change (as much as we now look at the fleshed out character personalities fondly). Things like making peach a camera loving diva, waluigi’s crotch chopping and general move away from comic relief to just boisterous, as well as the general increase in aggressiveness across the cast most certainly would not fly with current Nintendo
I think the Mario Brand has always been tightly gripped, with the occasional freedom given to 3rd party designers(like strikers and mario costumes in bayonetta) when they felt like it. I think it’s just a similar case to Pokemon: don’t do more than you have to. The people in charge want to make a quality product but it doesn’t seem like they have the desire to enrich game worlds like Intelligent Systems did. I think to them, generic toads have worked since ‘85 so if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it.
Which is why Galaxy 2 got strangled in the cradle the way it was, it was slated to have a proper story like Galaxy 1 but this time Miyamoto caught it in time and put his foot down.
@@BB_Boah but in Pokemon's case you could make a multitude of spinoffs and still be able to make more with the amount of characters there are. Over 1000 unique characters. Mario...ain't got much. Especially with Paper Mario. You got the Toads, Mario, Peach, Bowser, occasionally Luigi, and then generic baddies. Paper Mario through SPM all had unique and interesting character. Hell most characters have a backstory that gets resolved one way or another. The fact that Miyamoto, the person I look up to the most, dangles what we want out of Paper Mario the most and says "you can't have this, you have to settle for that abomination" hurts (side note that abomination is SS, the game we don't talk about) This needs to be fixed or else Paper Mario is dead. There is little hope we'll ever have anything like the first 3. ESPECIALLY nothing like SPM. I'm glad Bug Fables is on switch cuz that's what Paper Mario should be. Unique characters with a unique story. Even the main characters grow over time. Just...give us that...give us something that made Paper Mario what it used to be. Not Origami King or Color Splash or...well you get it.
In an alternate timeline, Intelligent Systems overuses the exact same idea (which i mean some already believe) and GameFreak treats each core series Pokemon game as if they were spin-offs. Also AlphaDream never went bankrupt. Rest in peace
@Blade Gaming Sword And Shield felt like below average games to me. Even the dlc they released was below average. Although, my previous comment was meant to be a joke(Maybe below average XD).
Blade Gaming they’re enjoyable, but compared to the mainseries games before it, they aren’t very good. And the DLC, which I was excited for, because DLC makes more sense that a 3rd game, but so far it seems to be a combination of cut mid and post game content. Hopefully the next games are better though. *But for now, I’m just replaying a lot of the other games (Platinum, soul silver, black, ect)*
@SilentG While I do agree with you, I don't think you should include Fire Emblem in that list. Three Houses has a variety of features, even past the stuff Awakening introduced to make it more casual friendly, that water down the challenge so much that the base line classic/normal doesn't appeal to the core FE fanbase becuse it's too easy, and that's not even mentioning the nightmare that is the story. It definitely doesn't fit in with the other list, but I would not put it alongside Breath of the Wild & Mario Odyssey
You know, given that Miyamoto vocally dislikes RPGs as a genre, I'm starting to genuinely wonder if he's deliberately sabotaging the spinoffs. That's the only explanation I can think of for why the Paper Mario team keeps being given directives that almost explicitly state "Don't make the Paper Mario games interesting," and offering rationales that are blatant lies ("We don't want to do the same thing again, we always want to do something new" says the company that cranked out four New Super Mario Bros. games that were literally just level packs with shinier graphics?).
Easy. The 2000s were a different era. Perhaps he may have always hated RPGs but tolerated them for the sake of creativity and innovation without limitations.
@S C Tanabe also worked on the earlier PM games, and yet here we are. If I had to guess, I'd say that SPM changed things. It's easy to forget in a post-Sticker-Star world, but Super Paper Mario got a huge backlash at the time of its release from people angry about its departure from the formula of TTYD.
I think he hates everything done with his precious IP that he didn't come up with. this is why everyone over there hates Waluigi, he was invented for sports games. Then again Kinopiko was invented for karting and she's gotten to appear more
Do you have a source on that? Miyamoto told Tanabe making Sticker Star an RPG would be fine, and Tanabe didn't listen. iwataasks.nintendo.com/interviews/#/3ds/papermario/0/0
Miyamoto has doubled down on rules that are the antithesis of the innovation that commanded my respect for him in the first place while at the same time mandating that the wheel be reinvented in ways that effectively prevent it from rolling. He needs to seriously reexamine his own preconceptions of where brand integrity and gameplay evolution are respectively needed before he issues any more orders from above to Tanabe and anybody else with hands on Mario or Zelda. Otherwise, he's doomed to have his life's labors end up in the same dumpster fire that George Lucas's did.
Miyamoto screwed up the moment he made Tanabe handle his games. I really have a feeling that Tanabe misinterpreted what Miyamoto says and just does his own thing. (which ends up garbage, AKA SS and CS)
I'd argue it could be headed in a worst direction than Star Wars. Say what you want about the movies, but the movies haven't been the best part of the Star Wars franchise for a very very very long time. The best part has always been how malleable the universe is, and how easy it is to tell really cool self-contained stories within them, like the Mandalorian or Jedi Fallen Order. Star Wars is no worse off than it was 20 years ago for this reason. Mario doesn't have that same luxury.
The gameplay was pretty fun too imo. The first paper Mario's gameplay kinda sucked but it was perfected in TTYD. Maybe if super paper mario actually got a spiritual sequel we might actually get a great paper mario game.
14:09 _Gee, I wonder WHY Bobby is so popular. Could it possibly be that they have a somewhat unique design? Or that there was a genuinely good story, that almost flawlessly leads to a genuinely good character arc for them? ...NAAAAAHHHHHHHHH_
It's still a "grunt" storyline (like the Shy Guys in Color Splash) all things considered -- classic PM makes the character feel like individuals, while character development while decent, feels like you move on because they're side character #20, rather than secondary character -- it's like giving screentime to a background character that could've been put to someone more interesting IMO.
Yeah imagine character coming from ones personality and not the way they look, how ridiculous would that be. As if they could ever make someone get emotionally attached to a simple basic enemy.
Whispernyan although I myself prefer personality yes, it’s completely worthless and overshadowed if the character itself can’t even be distinguished from the rest; like, in OK, there was that one NPCs who was treated rather scary and intense, but he has the exact same design like every single other toad, leading to him being easily forgettable anyways.
basically is. lot of what was said was kinda contradictory like points in this video demonstrated, feels like a sanitary consumer friendly way of just addressing the fan outcry with "the things youre all arguing are wrong"
Nintendo: You have to have new ideas if you want your games to sell. Intelligent Systems: Can we make new character designs so that enemies don't stay bland? Nintendo: No.
Paper Mario: we don't like to do the same thing twice Also paper Mario: uses sticker based battles twice in a row. Does the same "fill in the broken/Uncolored world" mechanic twice in a row...
After watching this, I took a look back and asked myself a question: "what got me into Mario as a kid?" I realized it was more complicated than "oh, I played Super Mario World and it was one of my first gaming experiences". Sure that's true, but what got me _really_ into it? What made me an absolute Mario _freak_ in junior high? I think there were 2 major things. One was a website called _Lemmy's Land._ The other was the Mario RPG series. I don't think it was a coincidence that I discovered all of these things around the same time, circa 2003-04-ish when I was first moving into middle school. Lemmy's Land was a Mario fansite that started in the late 90s (pretty sure it's defunct now, or at least it's stopped updating). It was a site where people submitted all sorts of user created content, from fanfiction to art, and a lot of that fiction incorporated characters I'd never heard of before. Turns out a lot of these were from a game called Super Mario RPG, a game I was later inspired to seek out and play bc of the site. LL also had guides for Mario 64 and Paper Mario, and I can't help but wonder if that was how I heard of _that_ game too...The site had plenty of original characters beyond that and seemed to be founded on the idea of expanding the Mario universe, something that all the Mario RPG games of the day did significantly, as well as some of my favorite fanfiction like _The Good, The Bad, and the Torte,_ which inspired me to write my own crappy unfinished series and ultimately lead to me becoming a writer. I didn't like Mario because of the classic Mario gameplay, I liked it because it seemed like this huge, sprawling world full of imagination, with endless possibilities. Mario and Luigi, Paper Mario, and the stories I read, plus stuff like Randy Solem's _Rise of the Mushroom Kingdom_ just fueled my hunger for that stuff. I wasn't there to see it happen, but I imagine what made the original Super Mario Bros so impactful is that it was so different from anything that had come before, that it was this impossible world full of wonder. The whole reason I was so adamant about Nintendo as the _only_ game company for me (that didn't stay the case forever) throughout my early adolescence was because I thought that Nintendo did stuff that was different and unique, something that wasn't just another WW2 shooter. But if they just stop and stand still, even something unique will become stale and stagnant. Mario and Peach and the Toads alone can't inspire our imaginations forever. That's why it bugs the _hell_ out of me whenever I see someone saying online that I dislike the new Paper Mario games because of nostalgia and that I want things to stay the same. That's the opposite of what I want. I'm playing Bug Fables right now and while the turn based combat is fine, I've realized it's really not what I loved about those old games. Heck, the new Paper Mario could be a 3D platformer, and I'd welcome it with open arms if it blew the doors of the Mario universe wide open again. I wanna meet characters I've never seen and see places I've never been, and experience whole new stories. I think that's at the core of me being a Mario fan. And the fact that while cleaning up my room, I've found a bunch of drawings of TTYD characters and even my own characters in a similar style seems to confirm how influential those games were on my development.
Yet, sometimes, Nintendo doesn't care about their diehard fans, and gives them one big middle finger. The company itself can sometimes be a double bladed sword.Oh yeah and that question with the casual players, Risa called the critics of the current formula a bunch of bigots.
@@linus6718 While I have huge issues with Odyssey originally was not _entirely_ one of them. It did a great job at creating a variety of new enemies and characters.
So basically the moral of this story is that Nintendo is afraid their second party studios will make something as great as Odyssey instead of them and fears Mario having depth.
Pedro Gomez I love SPM. Nintendo however probably hates it since a second-party studio did something that creative with the Mario brand while not sticking to what they want and made something that good instead of them, which is why the mandates came after that game.
When is a story ever bad in any game? Even games that don't like storytelling have some kind of lore to keep you entertained, it becomes a reward for progressing.
Reading this was so weird for me. I love Super Paper Mario, not because of its gamelay, but because of the story. It is my favorite part of the game by far... So having confirmation that they're actively trying to avoid making more stories like SPM's is kind of sad. I understand the decision to not make future stories as complex and dark as SPM's, but dumbing them down to the extent they did was... just... why?
@@averysmartidiot5611 That's non canon. There is no story book. The first three games make it very clear it's the real Mario world (Their characters are shown in 3D in later non Paper Mario games.)
The thing about making the games casual friendly is, I was eight when the first Paper Mario came out. Now I was TERRIBLE at RPGs, I couldn't even beat Mario RPG on the SNES until years later because I was so bad at it, and even Pokemon I had trouble with. But Paper Mario was so intuitive and well designed that even I could handle its mechanics and figure them out well enough to beat it on my own. Sure, TTYD was harder, but not by much and it had a lot more quality of life improvements that made it still accessible. How in the WORLD is that not casual friendly?
64 was nice and casual. It was easy to understand and very fun to play. I don’t think that the puzzle thing is very casual, and isn’t easy to understand. It’s fun sometimes, but... not easy?
@@cadence_2463i agree with you i played 64 around when i was 8 as well and well i had trouble with the puzzles i understood the combat mechanics of course i only fought bowser in the beginning but i still had fun and became a fan of the series ever since and sticker star’s battle puzzle system is… Way more complicated for kid and casual games and i’m still a casual gamer like what logic is tenobay spouting Nonsense thats what its easier for casual gamers da loco
Lapti Nek literally lmao. they refuse to give us new titles, we’ve only gotten origami king and animal crossing and we are 7 months into the year with no other confirmed releases
Saying that they're doing everything to make us hate them sounds hard to believe. Most companies don't try to receive hate with the possible exception of this mockbuster company called "The Asylum" but we don't speak of *that* company.
The fact that Tanabe literally says "I personally prefer story driven games" and then went on to say "it's no longer possible to modify Mario characters" makes me REALLY think it's Miyamoto who is pushing the series farther from it's story driven roots.
no it’s not that simple as those developers were trying to give people a sequel to ttyd but myamoto stopped them which can be seen in the sticker star beta version of where they were giving us everything that was in ttyd but they were forced to go down this route with the series it’s the developers fault that the series is like this it’s nintendo forcing them to get rid of everything that made ttyd great as the developers wanted to give us what we wanted as seen in the sticker star beta version
“No matter what, they don’t wanna do the same thing again” Pokémon: 👁👄👁💧 Edit: omg I usually hate these kinds of edits but fucking thank y’all for 1k likes never expected so many people to like this🤣
OH THE CONFETTI IS NEW. IT'S NOTHING LIKE THE PAINT MECHANIC AT ALL, WE SWEAR. What's that? You also rescued toads in color splash? THIS TIME IT'S DIFFERENT. The toads are FOLDED
"It's impossibly to modify existing chara-" TAKE A KOOPA. GIVE HIM THE OVERLY 90S AESTHETIC. RADIKOOPA. BAM. NEW CHARACTER. "Impossible"? More like "Excuse".
@@MetalJrock2299 Then Nintendo needs to get their head out of their ass and let Intelligent Systems make a good Paper Mario again with less generic characters.
BlackDot AlphaDream had tensions with Nintendo over Dream Team, which is pretty funny timing since this was right around Sticker Star, and by Paper Jam everything interesting and unique about Mario & Luigi vanished. It’s not looking good for Nintendo here.
I don't think Paper Mario is I actually found Origami King to be one of my new favourites I mean it still doesn't beat Thousand year door but for me it was an enjoyable game qnd I'd probably put it above Super Paper Mario which makes it my 3rd favourite game in the series.
Here’s the thing I feel Mario RPGS are really casual friendly to be honest! They are many people’s first RPG! It isn’t a hard RPG either! This feels like they want to make it even more casual to the point it is a cakewalk.
Nintendo is constantly trying to make their games easier for kids, but we had no problem figuring their games out when we were kids and the games were more complicated/difficult.
@@thevioletbee5879 yeah it's weird, it's still easier since toad spam is a thing but the phoenix (fire) boss was straighr up annoying.Not a fan of bosses having one way to beat it
We have decided to turn the smash brothers series into an interactive choose your own adventure story, because we want to satisfy a broader casual audience. Smash brothers players enjoy reading, so we feel audiences new and old will enjoy this new game.
@S C they also need to make games that people want to , you know... buy. If they don't, then they lose money and go out of business. It's a two way street.
I mean, I'd play that lol. But I wouldn't want it to get RID of normal Smash Bros. But I do think having more kinds of games that crossover all of the Nintendo franchises would be cool. Like, I think instead of a new Mario Kart, they should finally just do Super Smash Kart or something.
Watching this made me realize that Kirby would be a perfect fit for an actual spiritual successor to the old Paper Mario games. Kirby games already dip into aesthetics inspired by real-world crafts, so there's a match. Kirby has a colorful selection of races that play the role of both enemy and friend. Kirby stories cover both lighthearted fluff and deep, dark lore. The existing premise and dynamic of Kirby- Copy Abilities- lends itself well to an easy-to-learn-hard-to-master RPG battle system, and yet we haven't really ever had a true Kirby RPG. And Kirby is already a second-party franchise, so it wouldn't suffer the kind of creative stranglehold we're seeing here.
@@mittycommitspizzatime92 There was a whole town of them in the anime. This is the main reason I think Paper Kirby would work, really strong side-character potential.
Four years ago, we got the Gamexplain interview with Risa Tabata, where she mentions Color Splash was developed pretty much as soon as Sticker Star was finished. Okay, I thought, they didn't get feedback in time, maybe next game will be closer to the first two, there's the possibility that things could change. Now, however, there is no room for speculation. They made clear what they want to do with the series, and what they don't want to. The series is not going to change back anytime soon. I've seen some criticism that PM should've changed because it's a "baby's first RPG", or that we already have Mario & Luigi. Personally, I didn't like RPGs too much because some can go way too far with stats, and just selecting an attack and watching it happen was too boring when I was a kid. Paper Mario, however, was an easygoing RPG with engaging minigame-like attacks, but still had depth with things like badges and partners and the like. It was the "not too simple, not too complicated, just right" RPG for me. As for M&L, yeah, it's another humorous rpg with Action Commands with Mario characters, but... why not have both? While I never played much of the series (only PiT), I liked their different approach to those elements to what PM did. They had similarities, sure, but they were each their own thing. "We don't need two mario rpg series" was such a STUPID argument even while AlphaDream was still around, and now we have none! Wouldn't now be the time to Paper Mario bring back the rpg elements again? (Also. off-topic, buuut... Nintendo, please bring F-Zero back, we can have both it and Mario Kart at the same time) The rpg elements were made approachable, instead of removed. The original characters, races and places were not moving "away from the Mario universe", they were expanding it, and even classic ones were given a new interpretation. Paper was an aesthetic, not the actual material the world was made of. While the humour, music and visuals are as good as ever, the lack of the other elements just kills my interest. It's the combination of them all that I loved, not just one or two. I don't doubt The Origami King is a good game, it just lacks what I want. Ironically, I'm kinda glad this interview happened, now I won't have to worry about PM's future games. It gives me a certainty, even if i don't like it.
This is EXACTLY how I feel. It's disappointing that I'll never play a new Paper Mario again, but I'm excited to try Bug Fables. Hopefully it's as good as I've heard, and hopefully enough interest get generated in those games for them to create more.
In the interview it really sounds like Tanabe is talking down to younger or "casual" players. The older games were made for kids too. His logic is just stupid.
@@LazyGardenGamer Go for it! I haven't finished it yet, but from what I played, Bug Fables is easily the best Paper Mario game since 2007 (or 2004 if you strictly want the classic rpg style, but I still loved SPM, so... =P). And, thankfully, there's interest in games like this, both from players and developers: twitter.com/ArloStuff/status/1283497643998494720 twitter.com/DefiantProgram/status/1285720833609146368
Nobody complained, net even the fans, about having two Mario RPG series. Where in the world Nintendo got that idea from when both Paper Mario and Mario and Luigi don't even have the exact same mechanics. The OG Paper Mario series system alligns and expand upon the Super Mario RPG: Legend of Seven Stars formula, while Mario and Luigi is more doing it's own thing as an RPG series.
I'm pretty sure that limitation is enforced on 2nd/3rd party developed games. They can control what changes in the games within their own company, but they want to make sure that other companies don't get too far from what Mario is
@@tigerbritt2620 Probably they don't want something like Super Paper Mario again which was too far apart from the mario universe and had little to do with it, and they don't want the Mario IP to be hurt or something like this
@@superduck6456 OH, when it comes to Politics...I'm Far from having any say so over that. I was just comparing Apples to ... Orange Oranges ... because... well.. Trump is kind'a Orange? I'll stop.
So why cant they create new characters that touch mario characters, because if I remember correctly M&L Dream team got new characters, and characters that touch mario characters
Big shame. Side note: After playing ttyd so many times and having stylishes practically engraved into muscle memory, seeing them not be used bothers me like you wouldn’t believe.
@Chandster You still take damage in OK if you dont do enough damage or fail the puzzle. And boss battles definitely bring pain if you screw those up. I miss old PM too but lets not exaggerate here.
@Chandster After finishing the game, I can definitely say that the legion of stationary were pretty fantastic bosses. Despite the lack of unique design, the battles were fun, the music was awesome, and the things actually have more personality than you think. Tape actually ended up being my favorite fight aside from the final boss.
I finished ttyd like 3 days ago and i had also finished super paper mario and the thing that i likead about both was the variety of characters there were or the creative conscepts like the mansion on super paper mario where you had to get rupees and the train in ttyd that was a nice breath of air from continuos battles
I feel bad for the devs now, honestly. Knowing that they're just beholden to not be able to do anything original. That Origami King is them trying their hardest to make a proper Paper Mario experience, but not being able to truly make the experience they wanted to, once upon a time.
I think you got it wrong here. This IS the game they want to make. They want to casualize the gameplay. They want to keep the story simple. They want to keep changing the core appeal in favor of gimmicks. And they want to ignore all the fans that tell them that's not what we want.
take a look at color splash's concept art, so many character designs start out unique then get more bland with each revision. I believe they still wanna do what they used to
Paper Mario dev team: We have to do something new every time Me: There are 4 New Super Mario Bros games that are basically the same but with minor differences
Nic Anastasi I’d replay NSMB DS and Wii anyday, along with NSLU. I don’t really care for 2 and U that much. 2 was just a clone of DS on the 3DS and U was pretty much a reskin of Wii with little touch ups.
Caio Coelho but Nintendo has a lot of influence on them just look at prime 4. Originally it was developed by bandai but Nintendo did not like the game so they cancelled it and gave it to retro to develop
Mega F from me. So much potential for F-Zero, but Nintendo rather just put F-Zero elements in Mario Kart and only have just Mario Kart for their main racing series. No F-Zero, no Diddy Kong Racing. Only Mario Kart.
I really hope the character limitation gets removed in the future, limiting creativity can backfire horribly The thing that interested me about the older paper Mario games is how existing and new characters/species are designed, giving them distinct looks while still being familiar to the series while adding diversity at the same time A bob-omb may look like a admiral, but you still know it’s a bob-omb An enemy koopa may look like a thug, but you still know it’s a koopa
It's pretty darn incredible how fast they turned one of my all time favorite series into something I won't bother buying. I honestly see Nintendo cancelling Paper Mario before they'd ever go back to their roots
I always thought Paper Mario was making RPGs more casual to begin with. Japan seems bent on killing off the genre of JRPGs though saying they want to do something new.
I am enjoying Origami King for the most part, but it's a game that seems to have been built for core puzzle-game players instead of even casual RPG players. There's no such thing as somebody who's just "casual" or "core" for every possible game type. If you want to be friendly to casual players, you go for an easy mode or no time limits or something, you don't make people grind resources to make future battles easier.
I feel like that rule was put in place specifically to stifle the growth of the series. the fact that they don't want that type of World building and creativity outside of the main series Feels almost like they see these side games as competition and are intentionally holding them back to make themselves look better and retain interest in their creations. Honestly this whole thing feels kind of like a tactic a jealous person with power would use.
DKC, Paper Mario, Mario & Luigi, Miyamoto has been systematically seeking out anyone who makes his original creations better throughout the entirety of his career, and crushing them.
@@pedrogomezid honestly Miyamoto sounds like the worst thing for the growth of the Mario franchise as a whole at this point. It's like no one is allowed to move forward unless he is ahead of them at all times. That way he can suck up all the praise for expanding the universe. Or at least that's the vibe I'm feeling from all this Makes me interested to know his feelings about Smash Bros. If this is true
This might seem sad or disturbing to some, but it's oddly relieving to me. It's confirmation of what I already knew, that 64 and TTYD era Paper Mario games are never coming back. I can stop holding onto the vague hope that "maybe this one will be different".
I could bet you the "no original characters thing" is something from Nintendo´s marketing and copyright department, They own the trademark for "goomba" but they don´t own the trademark for "goomby" your friendly goomba that has a helmet, that's more work for them. so its easier to tell all the outside companies that do things with the Mario brand "Don´t create new stuff" let me remind you that Squarenix everything created for Super Mario RPG, even stuff like Boshi or Smilax that are to close to the original Nintendo Characters, Nintendo probably doesn´t want more of that.
"It is no longer possible to modify Mario characters" Ok then, why not have something like Super paper Mario. That game had %99.99 of the characters be brand new designs. Why can't we have stuff like that anymore? They fit your guidelines. I don't understand
I really cannot understand that anymore, personally I think that Super Paper Mario had the best story with deep character development in it, not only that but if I'm not mistaken there is literally *one* toad who appears in the whole game and that's it, there rest are completely new and original characters (Except Merlon and Bowser's goons and the other obvious characters.) Sure, most of the designs were a bit basic but they all had some great personality within them, even the pixels showed personality when you first find them. Take Dimentio for example, now THAT is how you create a good plot twist antagonist, you give him a twisted mad and ironic personality, you make him look like a goon of the main antagonist and before you know it, he's the main villan who turned out to be even more powerfull anyone thought he could be. I just really don't understand how we went to so many good original characters in worlds filled with orignality to just a shit-load of toads and just ONE new original character who doesn't even have a creative name. I'm telling you these people are getting too family friendly.
Yeah it's official, I have no hope for Paper Mario anymore. Thank you TTYD and SPM for being such a big factor in my childhood and defining me as a person. Goodbye Paper Mario, you have and forever will be missed And before anyone screeches at me in the comments, no I haven't played Origami King, maybe I will but I don't think I'll have £40 to 50$ worth of fun to warrant a purchase
What Nintendo Says: “No, We can’t make a cool story, or create new and lovable characters because it would make things too complicated in the Mario universe.” What Nintendo Means: “Yes. We can make an interesting story, and create characters that people will love and remember... BUUUT... that doesn’t mean we SHOULD.”
"No longer possible" sounded like a copout at first. As if they had already exhausted all the possibilities. But the more I thought about it, the more I agree with you that it could've been Miyamoto's doing. The way Tanabe worded it could've just been a respectful way of saying they're not allowed to add new characters.
Miyamoto once said the reason we can't get a new F-Zero is because they can't come up with a new gimmick or a way to utilize the latest console for it. But GX wasn't a gimmick unless you consider the arcade tie in connectivity. That arcade thing didn't last though, but the game stuck around and it was the final console release. There's so much to do and see and it's challenging enough for hardcore players. It has customization for your vehicles too. If you want innovation, just keep all of that and toss in online versus modes. But that isn't how Miyamoto rolls. Funny since GX was made by Sega and Nagoshi.
I'm gonna be even more cynical and say that this wasn't even a game developer making that decision. I think it was just some guy in a suit who figured out via charts and graphs that homogenised characters leads to more brand recognition, which then leads to more sales. This probably wasn't even directed at Paper Mario specifically, rather, it was just a generalised order that applied to all Mario spin-offs, with no special consideration for any of their needs.
> The way Tanabe worded it could've just been a respectful way of saying they're not allowed to add new characters. I'm pretty sure this has come up before too, and has been this way for a while - possibly as early as Super Paper Mario. If they want to create a new character it has to basically be something brand new (all the Origami characters for instance). It's not the only company that does this either when it comes to licensing their IPs out to third parties - I remember a whole thing with Gumi getting in deep trouble with Square Enix for creating a named Tonberry player character for FF Brave Exvius, because their permissions to use existing explicilty-Square-material were very strict. Like, that sucks, don't get me wrong. But - in spite of how people in these comments seem to want to treat a game I suspect they've never played - they've done a way better job working under those limitations than I expected, and may have even benefitted from it in some cases that go into spoiler territory for this game.
Here’s my theory: it’s an ownership dispute. If Intelligent Systems makes original characters based on existing Mario-series species, who owns the rights to those characters? Given the sheer number of unique NPCs in a game such as TTYD, if IS owned the rights to the original characters they made, theoretically they could make a Mario-universe game populated with those characters they had already created, without Nintendo’s consent. A spin-off game about Goombella or Koops, populated entirely by pre-existing NPCs from TTYD. It’s kind of like when the developers of DOOM openly stated that the DOOM movie, despite being the same IP, had nothing to do with them and they did not consent to the creation of the movie. The one thing Nintendo hates more than anything is fan games. People making games using their IPs without their consent. My belief is that having IS use only character designs Nintendo owns, Nintendo is basically trying to prevent Intelligent Systems from legally making a Mario fangame. Please note that I have absolutely no evidence to back this theory.
Nintendo owns the characters. Plenty of Paper Mario characters have appeared in other games like the Star Spirits in Mario Party and Goomba King in Super Mario 64 DS. This is just Miyamoto doing another Miyamoto.
But when you create something under someone else's IP, doesn't the person who owns the IP automatically own the new characters and places? Like, wouldn't Nintendo automatically own everything in TTYD? Actually, isn't Intelligent systems OWNED by Nintendo?
God, to hear they simplified the stories due to the results of those Club Nintendo surveys is nonsense. I really don't think those surveys are a good barometer to figure out what people liked about the game because I'm certain the majority of people filling out those surveys were just doing the bare minimum to get their Club Nintendo coins.
@@genogamma13 Which is fucked up in so many ways. It's a global game, most people don't have Nintendo accounts, valuing gameplay over story doesn't mean you don't want story, they had given direct incentive with coins which promotes people spamming the quiz as fast as possible and they had no protections. For a company that's known for their quality control this has to be one of the least quality decision making processes I've ever seen.
@@EvilShadow7777 This stupid decision/excuse reminds me of why Smash "shouldn't have cutscenes". Sakurai said that there isn't a story mode like Subspace because the cutscenes were uploaded. Of course they were uploaded, what doesn't get uploaded to the internet? This is also such a stupid reason to not do it.
7:45 ... .... Paper Mario has traditionally been *an RPG series* . How do you move the game away from its RPG roots and then tell people not to think of it as an RPG game? We already have a Mario adventure series, *it's the Mario series* . If you're going to have a spin-off series, *leave the RPG alone* .
“This is an adventure game, after all. So it wouldn’t be right if the battles didn’t have some kind of puzzle solving element!” Correct me if I’m wrong, but from my experience, adventure game battles tend to be “don’t get hit by thing, hit thing until it dies”
As long as Nintendo keeps making money from these games despite feedback, they’ll keep making them. I understand that some people want to enjoy these games regardless of the history, but I learned my lesson from Sticker Star and won’t be buying another Paper Mario unless it has either a “customization (badge) system” or “unique cast of characters”. I’m not picky, but those were the things that made the Paper Mario world fun and memorable
i wish that were true but if it was they wouldve went back to the old style after color splash. That game bombed harder then most people can wrap their head around and yet origami king still happened for some reason
As an ex-Pokemon fan (at least until The Pokemon Company or GameFreak or whoever was responsible for how bad Sword and Shield was), this hits on an entirely relatable level.
@@tjlnintendo i know but it bombed even by wiiu standards. take chibi robo for example. game flopped hard also since it was released on a dying console that didnt do too well in the first place very similar to color splash. but even without the advantage of having mario in the title chibi robo managed to more than double color splash's sales. hell chibi robo sold better in north america than color splash did worldwide. this goes back to what i said about people not being able to truly wrap their hand around how poorly color splash did
There's too much passion in that game to be a mistake. Maybe it was a final game but they had to make more when the Wii came out and they were like, "I'm not doing THAT again!"
The Wii is what changed just about everything. The watering down for mass accessibility to all people (at the cost of alienating Nintendo's actual built-up market- the fans) meant casualising all their games to the point that all innovation was utterly stifled, unless it was the tech and they decided fresh, unusual ideas either weren't worth it or didn't fit anymore. It's anybody's guess, but the Gamecube was only so much a cult hit rather than a financial success (Nintendo's fault regarding the anti-3rd party hardware and proprietary design- NOT the games), you're left to assume the design philosophy left behind that built Nintendo into what they were for 20 years is dead and buried forever. Bear in mind, that was 15 years ago now, already.
@@Hysteria98 Generally I think it's a mistake to try and appeal to the fickle tastes of the mass market, but Nintendo does seem to have a knack for tapping into it. First the Wii, then the Switch. Every time they try to go more "hardcore" like the Gamecube and Wii U they don't sell nearly as much. The Gamecube is one of my favorite consoles, and the Wii U is a sleeper juggernaut with the Virtual Console and access to a good amount of Nintendo classics thanks to remakes/remasters and Wii backwards compatibility. I really wish that they had been successes because we would be seeing a very different Nintendo these days. The Switch is primed for a virtual console, but Nintendo doesn't seem interested in offering one anymore. Can you imagine how awesome it would be to have all the classics from every era (NES, Gameboy, SNES, GBA, N64, DS, Gamecube, 3DS, Wii, Wii U) on one console that can be both a handheld and a home console? I'm so, so upset that it isn't a thing. If any game company has a vast library of classic games to put on their system, it's Nintendo. Sony is not doing well with backwards compatibility with PS1 and PS2 games (or PS3 for that matter), yet their PS4 sales rival the PS2. So maybe BC and virtual console aren't important to other people. They're important to me, but I guess I was always going to buy the new consoles anyway. The biggest shame, in my opinion, is that Nintendo could very well compete with Sony and see PS4 numbers of sales if they would just create a powerful enough console to support 3rd party games. The Switch is barely powerful enough to support PS4/Xbox One ports, so going into the next generation, I don't think we will see too many ports of new games to the Switch. It's about time for a Switch 2 or a Switch Pro or whatever Nintendo decides to do. I really think they should stick with this whole handheld/console hybrid. I can't really see them going back to a dedicated console and dedicated handheld again.
@@ChaseWSanders The Wii U was a failure because they just didn't fucking tell anybody about it. I'm a Nintendo fan, and that thing just sprung up out of nowhere like an unwanted pregnancy.
@@Hysteria98 But this only happened to the Mario franchise, none of the others, and even that was reversed with Odyssey. Also Alpha Dream was allowed to create new characters in Mario and Luigi: Bowser's Inside Story and Dream Team. None of this makes sense. I think it's some personal crap that Miyamoto himself didn't like the story of Super Paper Mario so in rage he banned IS specifically from adding anything to the Mario universe. Also that 1% poll is total BS, I literally don't believe it. It was probably something like a free text area where people were asked to say what they liked about the game and 99% of responders left it empty, therefore they concluded "they didn't like the story".
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“Stories don’t fit Paper Mario”
Paper Mario was named Mario Story in Japan
Pick One.
The literal point of the original paper Mario is we’re READING A STORY! The paper aesthetic was just to bring that point across. It was never supposed to be just paper gimmicks. It was literally just a style.
@@Gamelover254
Too bad that changed in TTYD when it was called "Paper Mario RPG".
I don't understand the fixation on the Mario's Story title.
It doesn't really mean shit in the grand scheme of things.
If it had,it have kept that moniker permanently.
They did pick one. They picked the former. Paper Mario is no longer a RPG series with elaborate stories and it likely never will be one again. It's now an action-adventure franchise. There's no substantiated hope to be had that it'll change back suddenly. They made their decision already.
Almond Joy It just shows that stories definitely fit
spbman1234 I can be fine with that if bitter, but if they are going to make it an action adventure series, they need to ditch turn based combat completely.
Why do they act like an rpg is too complicated or inaccessible for "casual" fans? I beat Paper Mario 64 when I was like...10 years old.
@Hungry Microwave I think we can safely assume that the target audience for any given video game is not literal 4 year olds.
Paper Mario is literally designed as "Babies First JARPG"
@@Mr_Meatbox and they think those baby games would be too hard for today's standards, and tbh kids today wouldn't have the attention span to beat it so its a fair assumption
I couldn't beat it as a kid because I didn't know any English vocabs.
Or like Pokemon? Maybe the game series most popular among casuals and kids ever? (not saying there aren't deep mechanics to Pokémon)
The way that Miyamoto phrased it is in the western world a suggestion, but when a boss makes a suggestion like that in Japan it's not really a suggestion. It's telling you how to do your job.
Nobody ever thought about a printer inside paper mario world printing new enemies
@@Kamoto-Ohiko like an evil printer? that'd be baller
@@Enclavefakesoldier an evil 3D printer printing 3D enemies or an evil 2D huge printer printing paper enemy folks
Or, a paper shredder being treated as a world-destroying weapon.
@Raistlin Majere Sorry for being late but can you please explain on what the original comment means by how Japanese culture works in this?
People: “The story’s good but the combat’s still weird.”
Nintendo: “Got it. We’ll remove the story.”
People: “What? No - “
Exactly Super paper was good but it wasn't the best so what do they do...hmm let's just make a bland story then
I wish that were true.
Instead, everything is explained in detail.
The combat was alright but it’d be cool if they had effects like fire or poison or electric things like stats or sum
This is what happens when literally the only fan feedback you care about is Nintendo club reviews that people get currency for using. Of course polls are skewed when people only spam the first answers and you have no way to filter out reviews that are being done way too quick.
@@spence8507 honestly, I feel the story made Super Paper Mario. Like the game mechanics were iffy but the story was amazing, at least to me anyway. I'd love to see more complex and well woven story as it can make or break a game.
Paper Mario: No, you can't have original characters. Now go fight Gooper Blooper for the 15th time.
Mario Odyssey: Here, go help these living forks get the fat bird away from the volcano by becoming a piece of meat.
Andrezits Don’t forget about “Jump up, superstar!” and the Honeylune Ridge Escape.
All I remember from Super Mario Odyssey is New Donk City, it's the best place in the game.
@Scott Stamp I'm sure there are exceptions for the mainline games. But it seems like the whole point of the limitation is to not dilute familiarity with characters that are core to the Mario brand so that when mainline games do come out people continue to be familiar with the traditional Mario characters. But it ends up making little sense to do this when the main Mario games end up making up novel characters anyway.
@Casey Portnell how can you find SMG1&2 boring tho
@@edgarhotard2965 I'm guessing it has to do with representation considering the mainline series can affect all Mario games, so spinoffs can base whatever from them. On the other hand, spinoffs (unless you're a very close one like Luigi's Mansion) don't have an impact on anything else. So maybe it's something like they don't want people to think Vivian can appear in the main series games.
"we don't want to abandon casual players"
The first two games were extremely accessible. I'm not sure what's talking about here.
If you want to make it even more accessible, add a function to auto assign badges or something? Add a difficulty mode where good stuff happens more often, like the crowd throwing health restores at you more? I don't know, it doesn't seem that difficult.
Casuals will buy the game because it has Mario on the box anyway.
Hell, I'd argue that Sticker Star is far less accessible than either of the first two games. That game is so needlessly obtuse and tedious that I don't see any actual kid having the patience to get through it.
I mean honestly the puzzles in the standard battles feel like they would drive away casuals more than anything else. Casuals are drawn to things being easy to understand more than easy to play, and the ring system is weird and not very intuitive for an RPG.
@@raymondthrone7197 Tbh I wouldn't call myself "casual" and I'm almost done with the game and still struggling with the ring system, it's just not the kind of "puzzle" that comes easily.
Raymond Throne Exactly. The timer doesn’t help either.
They sold the worst excluding Color Splash. The Origami King is on track to at least match Super Paper Mario
"We like to do something different every time."
> Only allowed to use generic stock character designs
lmao. Another inconsistency found, nice.
Key word being allowed
More like "we prefer gimmicks over story and creativity and think these gimmicks are actually creativity"
Yes! First question I thought of: if your goal is originality/uniqueness, why are you handicapping yourself??
@@johnporter2447 You assume it's not Nintendo handicapping them
Makes me wonder if this is also why Toadsworth has practically disappeared, he's an altered toad design which is now no longer allowed
But he first appeared in Super Mario Sunshine
after bowser's inside story, he was never seen again
@@RandomTRandomReal Really sad stuff
he died of old age it's canon
THE ANNOYING THING IS CAPTAIN T.ODE AND PROFESSOR TOAD ARE DIFFERENT
What bothers me is the conflation between "character" and "species."
"Goomba" is not a "Mario character." It's a species of characters! Making unique Goombas with names and quirky designs isn't modifying a character, it's using a species as a template and creating a brand new character! It's not the same as using a full-on *character* like Mario or Bowser as your base.
It's a huge issue I have with the Mario series at times - seeing their characters as *mascots*, not characters.
Saying you're not allowed to make new characters from a Goomba species is like saying all black characters have to be designed the exact same way.
I... can you be racist to a fictional species? I dunno.
Man yeah. What weird reasoning
Exactly!!!
It’s more to do with them not wanting the brand of those characters/races/whatever muddied. The image of a goomba is as iconic as Bowser, so creating a modified version like the partners from Paper Mario and TTYD would weaken the brand recognition. If you put in a Bob-omb, it Has to be recognisable instantly as the exact Bob-omb model that’s been around for decades, so people see it and know what it is and buy the next mario tennis because you can play as a Bob-omb in it, and that’s their favourite character since they’ve seen it a lot before, and people tend to like what they’re familiar with.
Mario Odyssey: Full of original characters. Released almost three years ago.
Luigi’s Mansion 3: Full of original characters. Released last year.
Paper Mario: “It’s no longer possible to add modified or original characters to Mario.”
Mario odyssey does it because it is made by Nintendo EAD and they just do whatever fits best for gameplay.
Luigi’s mansion has them because of how outrageous and un-Mario it looks.
@@DerpDerp3001
They don't look un-mario at all lol
Also WarioWare, which surprise surprise is also made by Intelligent Systems!
Asha it looks like a Luigi’s mansion characters but they look very different from Mario characters.
Asha Wario Ware is treated as it’s own franchise.
“It’s impossible to modify characters since Sticker Star”
But it’s fine to do stuff like Dr Baby Rosalina, Pink Gold Peach, Dr Goomba Tower?
Yeah seems fair
*For 3rd/2nd parties iirc. Nintendo in-house can tweak stuff at their leisure but if it's an external company (like IS) they are much more regulated so that Mario isn't misrepresented by them
I lose it every time with dr. goomba tower
Maximum Addition But that’s another confusing thing because Luigi’s Mansion (although not completely considered the “Mario” series but is set within that world and uses the same characters) was able to have unique new characters and designs and all this stuff while also being with Next Level Games, who I believe isn’t in house. And to top it off Tanabe was literally the lead producer on LM3. This whole limitation seems so baffling and doesn’t seem to actually add up within the company and what they’ve been doing since the Switch dropped.
@Funky Thor 64 So do you think we will not get a Paper Mario 64 remake because of this?
S C That’s true, and I do agree that the ghost variety wasn’t too extensive but even so those ghosts were at least somewhat new and varied designs on the ghosts established in dark moon. They weren’t radically different but they felt like an evolution of that style set in dark moon while paper Mario has been stuck on the exact same models for 8 years. Idk man, I feel like we’re maybe taking what he’s saying too seriously when in reality he’s mostly just trying to give some excuse for why they aren’t doing it for Paper Mario.
What they don't understand is that their dedicated fans started out as casuals once upon a time. The reason those kids grew into dedicated fans is because the games were engaging and imaginative. EVERYONE gets bored of something that never changes. It baffles me how out of touch Nintendo is.
Aren’t they doing the opposite of that though? The opposite of never changing? They are intentionally AVOIDING the trap of creating the same game over and over with the Paper Mario series
@thebiggestpanda1 It absolutely baffles me how you think Tanabe represents the entirety of Nintendo when he doesn’t. You completely ignore the vast majority of games Nintendo created recently with fan feedback in mind. BOTW, Mario Odyssey, Smash Ultimate, Animal Crossing New Horizons, Luigi’s Mansion 3, etc apparently don’t exist to you all because you want to say slanderous lies about Nintendo based on what one man said.
@@TheLegoMaster261
Edit: due to a mistake, Donkey Kong Fan’s comment was addressed to me, which I thought was confusing. Here’s the original so my FBI agent doesn’t have to bother looking for it:
I’m not exactly sure how that applies to my comment. OP complained that Nintendo isn’t innovative, yet I claim they do the opposite to avoid the Call of Duty trap! BOTW and Mario Odyssey alone prove Nintendo is still very innovative. The only time they made the same 3D Mario game twice was Galaxy 2!
@@52flyingbicycles Oh god I’m so sorry. I meant to respond to OP but I accidentally responded to you. I’ll quickly change my comment.
@@52flyingbicycles But that's contradiction since they made 3 Sticker Star games. Origami King is basically Color Splash 2.0. TTYD and SPM evolved the series further much more than the modern Paper Mario games. Sticker Star, Color Splash, and Origami King are really restricted compared to the OG Paper Mario games.
5:57
“What it sounds like he’s saying is-“
State Farm ad: “accidents happen.”
That was the only time I enjoyed TH-cam’s midroll ads.
Ad happened there for me too, but it was Pizza Hut.
"What it sounds like he's saying is..." (my add) *Did someone say KFC?*
i got trojan man
"What it sounds like he's saying is the Red Paladins took everything from me."
I got the French Mustard ad containing a montage of meats being covered in mustard. Made me chuckle pretty good.
Funny how they dont want to focus on the story of a game that originally was conceived as, and titled, Mario Story.
The original idea for Paper Mario wasn't even paper. There were no paper references in the first game because it was just an aesthetic at that time
Technically the new Paper Mario games are part of a different series, considering that the first 2 were called Mario Story in Japan, while the new ones are called Paper Mario in Japan.
Glowing Kirby First was Mario Story. Second was Paper Mario RPG.
Hatster Hence main universe for those three.
@Snowfallinginthenight I see, thank you for the clarification!
-wait so there was four different seri-
"We don't want to do the same thing twice."
New Super Mario Bros
New Super Mario Bros Wii
New Super Mario Bros 2
New Super Mario Bros U
New Super Mario Bros U Deluxe
My apologies, but that's bullcrap.
(made some edits due to nitpicking)
L
You forgot
Super Mario Galaxy
Super Mario Galaxy 2
@@metashade4218 Galaxy 2 is different enough
Meta Shade yeah but those were both very different from others in the series. And both have a lot to be unique from each other. Much like how both the first paper Mario and ttyd are both similar and different.
Also SMG2 was originally ment to be DLC
As the saying goes... "if it aint broke, don't fix it"
They went to fix it,
and they broke it.
Nah dude, it's more like they smashed it with a hammer to break it and then broke it some more. There wasn't an intent to fix anything
I think this game is pretty good personally. I like how they try to make each game very different. If I wanted a game similar to the other paper Mario games, id play the other paper Mario games
[Dr Death 3805] That’s not the point, the point is that the reason the first few games were so loved was because of the deeper stories and lores and more unique designs and characters and more creativity, but the recent Paper games have back pedalled on all that and become generic and way too hamfisted with the paper aesthetic, Origami King is a step up from SS and CS but still doesn’t have the same level of quality as the first three games.
@@Zelink108 I agree it isn't as good, I still think it's a good game though
Also nintendo's hypocritical
Nintendo: We wanna have cool new ideas and implement creative features!
Fans: You know you could channel that creative energy into the world building, story, and chara-
Nintendo: *no*
I don’t understand why they’re cool with their in-house devs going crazy with new and weird stuff like Odyssey but post-2008 they seem to keep their second party devs/partners at gunpoint. They should be able to clearly see that people respond well and like when Mario goes unique and weird
That's quite the double standard.
you say this as if its anything new. nintendo always had a hate relashionship with second party devs. to the point some ended up despising the company due to that double standards.
Marcos Danilo That’s true. Nintendo was a massive jerkwad in the 90s, they did Argonaut, Silicon, Rare, and Sony so dirty.
@@tuskoub i would love to live in a timeline where rare still works for nintendo and made a banjo game for switch
@@eugenioleanza9190 You're only glimmer of hope is the Yooka Laylee games, there's two of them so far, support the devs for more!
"It's no longer possible to modify Mario characters or create original characters."
This is infuriating, uncalled for, and unfair to everyone
Wherein trademark considerations move from threatening fan creations to interfering with actual high-profile games.
Just gotta wait for Miyamoto to retire or croak. Nintendo won’t be getting any more money from me until management changes
@@notenoughgarlic Do you seriously think that Miyamoto is anti-original characters? This smells like corporate bullshit way more than anything else to me.
@@hoodedman6579 he literally said that he was PREVENTING PAPER MARIO FROM HAVING AN ACTUAL STORY. Hes a big part in this too.
That's not exactly what they mean, the quote says they can't modify existing Mario characters and races to be their own unique characters now, so something like Goombella or Kooper wouldn't be allowed, but a new original character of its own race that isn't tied to the rest of the Mario universe would be, like Vivian or Olly/Olivia.
NO! Super’s story being absolutely balls to the wall insane was what made that game memorable, I remember Count Bleck, I remeber Dimentio, I remember the fucking desth of the universe.
The story is amazing.
I don't remember any original characters from sticker star...
Wait was there a crown in it?
Did you mean Death of the universe or Depth of the universe, kinda funny how that worked out since both can apply.
Yo, Super Paper Mario was the best.
Long live Mr. L!
Also Mimi's transformation into the spider, which is absolutely terrifying, and amazing.
Ironically the series with “new” in the title seems to add the least new things in their games.
i mean if you count levels then that would be false, but when it comes to only entities (enemies, powerups, etc.) then it just feels like nintendo got lazy
Some Guy yeah
Ah yes... the new soup series.
Rex yeah, the ds one was good
@@dylanwynkoop4578 all of them are good however they are very unoriginal
This made me realize a game like Super Mario RPG would never fly in this day and age. Forget Paper Mario and Mario and Luigi which modify a few enemies and added a few unique species, Super Mario RPG just started the game with a talking sword falling into Bowser's castle, a superboss ripped straight from Final Fantasy, and basically almost all original enemies and bosses.
It wouldnt fly because apparently Nintendos players are braindead retards who cant read according to Nintendo
@@Snaps12345 They thought that in the 90s too, but the SNES still got some amazing RPGs, including Mario.
@antimatter30, "A game like Super Mario RPG would never fly in this day and age".
Mario Rabbids Kingdom Battle and Dream Team say otherwise. Also, I think you're downplaying the Mario Luigi series. *Plenty* of unique species and characters are introduced. Look at Bowser's Inside Story.
The only reason it didn’t fly Mario & Luigi wise is because they collaborated with Paper Mario. Hope this crap they’re doing was worth it.
@@rainehappy7097 The games werent full of stupid tutorials tho
"Story doesn't work" So we're just going to ignore the first two paper Mario games, Super Mario RPG, the entire Mario and Luigi saga
@@Mario87456
Why do you always keep blaming Tanabe for everything? You're aware that he worked on the first three Paper Mario games as well? These decisions are because of other people, not just him.
I miss the M&L series
@@Mario87456 blame Miyamoto as well then. He always had a large input on how Mario games or any Nintendo games are created (remember how he screwed over Platinum games with Star Fox Zero). I love Miyamoto and what he has done for the gaming industry but he can really be stingy and very backwards at times when he is at the helms and giving his input. Which is why I'm glad when new blood takes over the reins at Nintendo and actually makes a franchise more refreshing and fun to play in the first place.
not to mention super paper mario
CrAzYgIrL Super Paper Mario arguably had the best story.
I love the implication that experience points aren't casual friendly. Ah yes, defeating an enemy to fill a meter is so hardcore, definitely not casual friendly at all.
Pokemon is regarded as a kid's game. Exp is the most important thing in that game. So intense. So hardcore.
Pokemon is actually a great example (maybe not the most recent ones, IDK). Its simple to pick up but difficult to master, so there's something for everyone. Why can't this series be like that?
Here's the thing about this whole "casual" thing. Paper Mario: Sticker Star and Color Splash aren't even casual-friendly games. Like, at all. They have bullshit unnecessary inventory management, counter-intuitive ideas where avoiding battles is actually beneficial, trial-and-error puzzles where you have to have a specific Thing which discourages using them in battle... And don't even get me started on the battle controls of Color Splash. These games are complex in their own weird nonsensical ways, which are much more of a turnoff for casuals than some basic RPG elements.
...
...
...
*shouts from far off* color splash had button controls in the menu, people just never checked and hated on the game as if it didn't!
...
...
...
@@henryg.8762 That doesn't excuse them being awful hahaha
@@Zeckle11 Color Splash isn't really all that awful. Now, don't take my word for it, as I've never had the fortune to play the original 3 Paper Mario games, but the inventory management in CS wasn't terrible. It was actually pretty easy to use and was simplified massively by the 'Sort' button. I do agree that the card system was unnecessary, but the battles in CS weren't actually beneficial to avoid, as battling gave you paint scraps, a form of XP. Honestly, though, paint scraps were a largely unnecessary kind of XP. The Thing cards were always freely given to you, and if you felt like you were coming up on a hard boss battle, you could visit the Know-It-All toad to find out a hint on what Thing you might want, also having a place to freely get the Thing cards right in Port Prisma (for a price). In conclusion, CS isn't as terrible as you think.
I've got no excuses for Sticker Star though.
You know what else is un-intuitive? Boss fights with 1 hit kill moves if you don't have the exact THING in your inventory. That is such a STUPID design choice that it put me off buying colour splash and TOK. Having the correct thing should be a reward that makes battles easier for being conservative, not a life or death requirement!
@@Silverdude500 I agree with that. That decision does seem a bit unnecessary.
Here's a giant piece to the puzzle I want to add to your discussion Arlo - Nintendo EPD is VERY likely the division who is enforcing this rule.
Like you mentioned, the games from EPD are not under the rule of using only pre-established characters, like we see in Super Mario Odyssey. Not only do Nintendo EPD make games and consoles, they also manage and license properties, alongside producing and supervising development for contracted studios. It's basically the "Nintendo" we think of, when we say Nintendo.
And one of the rules they made with all their "contracted studios" was only using pre-established Mario characters, MEANING characters from EPD. That's why Intelligent Systems not only can't make new original characters, but also why they can't use old characters outside of EPD, like for example from Super Paper Mario or The Thousand Year Door, since those are games not made from Nintendo EPD. This is the EXACT line that has been made. That's also why you don't see other characters from outside EPD in Mario Sports games like Mario Aces. It's all old characters from EPD.
It kinda makes sense if you think about it. Nintendo EPD probably wants control over one of their most valuable IP's, and don't want people to think the Mario world is any different than the way they imagine it. And they are of course not going to put the restrictions on themselves. That's why they can make new characters, whereas others can't. And in situations like mobile apps and theme parks, this rule MAKES SENSE. Letting other people control your universe can be scary, and could potentially damage your IP. But in the case of Paper Mario (and other games) it's really sad, because it hurts the games. And I think it ironically damages the Mario IP more, than it protects it.
finally, someone i can agree with.
This.
This may also explain Mario+Rabbids Kingdom Battle which had bland characters and then Rabbid versions of those bland characters.
What in the world? Huh, I had no idea Nintendo used to be so... partitioned. Mario Wiki says Nintendo EPD (Entertainment Planning & Development) was a merger that occured between Nintendo EAD (Entertainment Analysis & Development, the main one) and Nintendo SPD (Software Planning & Development, the various spinoff ones, including Tanabe's dept.) that happened around the time of Super Mario Maker. But of course, you can see this tightening of the IP in many games leading up to the merger, too - WarioWare having nothing to do with Wario Land, Super Paper Mario having no new "Mario-ish" characters, and even Donkey Kong Country Returns and its controversial removal of the Kremlings.
(And before anyone mentions it, the Kremlings are all owned by Nintendo and have nothing to do with Rare, which is why Kritters kept appearing in some Mario sports games. The situation with DKC Returns just coincided with Rare's acquisition by Microsoft, which understandably confused people for a long time about the legal status of K. Rool & Co.)
@@baconlabs "...WarioWare having nothing to do with Wario Land..."
In WarioWare Twisted, in the beginning of Wario's story you can see the Music Box from Wario Land 3, as well as a picture of the Golden Pyramid from Wario Land 4. (and that's not even mentioning that WarioWare Inc.: Mega Microgame$ had a Wario Land 1 Microgame and borrowed some music from Wario Land 4)
Of course, stuff like that hasn't really happened since. Kind of sucks, it's like Wario Land and WarioWare are two different universes.
It’s almost like the Devs REALLY want to make the games so good but they’re being held back... something is wrong
To be honest, I feel the same way. But in the end, it's the decision of the higher ups, and they probably care more about brand recognition and stability than creativity and active risk-taking. The designers would like to try more creative ideas and give us a title that is a true sequel to Thousand Year Door, but in the end, it's Miyamoto's creation, basically his child. And if he doesn't want to do something like that, we have to respect him. Kinda sad but it's understandable.
@@stefanmorgan5378 I think that Miyamoto is just being an overprotective parent. Mario is grown up now, and he's ready to go out into the world and try new things. Stifling ideas that aren't your own is not the way to keep your franchise fresh and enjoyable.
@@ButtonMasherReal Still, that is the most difficult part about handling an IP or characters from an established franchise. If you are the creator, you gotta make sure that what is being put on store shelves still fits the established lore and characters you have, accurately portrays your vision of the game's world, and still appeals to the needs of fans. Yeah sure, Miyamoto is being very protective and I agree with the point you're making. There are loads of ways the Paper Mario series can improve without rehashing old ideas, making the story overcomplicated, or giving up on casual players and/or hardcore fans. But if Miyamoto doesn't see them, or sees them and doesn't agree with how he wants to establish the Paper Mario universe, then we are just going to have to accept that. It sucks, it really does.
Games really should get out of a element of it "have" to be the character from the original game. And the fact that they said come back with a open mind is rediculous. Everyone does have creativity somewhere but if all games and stuff keeps holding it back from the past where it "had" to be "original" then the world if just ganna constantly lose creativity. It's better to just let things go and let anyone be fully creative otherwise you might lose millions of people that trusted you all these years. Now if I made a paper Mario game from scratch for example to fix the RPG mess how about make it a puzzle and (old paper mario) rpg put together like have a throw hammer that hits the back 4 enemies but you need like 4 BP or maybe have some sort of slider badge that solves 3 moves ahead, but you don't get the damage bonus. Something like that. It seems lately the whole "old gen" world is just hold the young brains back that we wanna try all these things and yet they don't want us to and we have no choice but to respect their stuff cuase if we don't they know a way to keep us back. It's a problem in the world that is happening right now no one isn't cooperating much everyone just wants to hold the past and it's just isn't worth it. (I had to type this whole thing to get all my frustrations about what's happening in the world) But hopefully someone understands what I'm trying to say.
Stefan Morgan the thing is that other developers can say No. Sakurai has debated with Miyamoto before regarding Kirby’s initial design and Koizumi added Rosalina’s backstory behind Shiggy’s back
I kinda read that line as being "Weeeeeeell I hear you, but bosses say we can't do that, so uh, please enjoy stuff they do allow us to do"
So this is why TOK bosses are so uninspiring. The true bosses of the game are... NINTENDO EXECUTIVES?
Eu sou o Diógenes ok? The bosses were pretty cool though, mechanic wise, they were fun to fight
@@diogenessilviocemartins9019 to be fair: they may be office supplies, but they got one heck of a character for themselves and are literally the most fun thing in that game.
I didn't. But now that the thought's in my head it makes daft sense.
I guess we're getting into a "Nintendo's sitting too pretty and isn't willing to risk anything anymore" phase... Maybe Paper Mario will get better the next time "Nintendo's doomed"
"I do hear the fans, I just don't care."
just like pokemon.
Metroid, Mario, Mods/ROMs... Good old Nintendo, the family friendly Bethesda.
"We do hear you. And since you're being such bitches. We've decided to add microtransactions to all of our games. To compensate. We will make the 17 remaining Punch Out fans happy. And we will be making a new Punch Out game. There's only 17 right?"
@@yo1214 the only difference is that the Paper Mario devs actually suffer for it, because less fans are buying their games. The pokemon devs can do whatever they want, despite the backlash, because sales aren’t exactly a problem for them.
"Do you listen to fan feedback?"
"We know there is feedback. We don't listen to it"
This is exactly why I didn't buy Origami King. Idk if its a 'good game'. Nintendo is just so ignorant...
@@LegendOfGoro this is a better Paper Mario . The mechanic and the humor is right. Give it a try
Matthew C I’m more than halfway in the game and I can say for sure now that my top 3 favorite games are n64 paper Mario ttyd and origami king. It’s a really decent game you should give it a try.
How does that even happen. Even though Origami King is great that must be maddening for fans of the first 2 Paper Mario games.
@@luism8612 I'm not even gonna bullshit you: I'm only really interested in humoring Paper Mario if it's as mechanically, RPG-deep as Thousand Year Door was. All I see that "battle mechanic" as is a reason to _avoid every battle I don't have to take;_ which is a colossal step _backwards_ in comparison to "jumping out to take every fight you can in TYD because you finally got the timing right on that super-move you just unlocked".
They just need to be pressed on that specific line. I wish they did.
"WHY is it no longer possible to modify Mario characters or to create original characters that touch on the Mario universe?"
That's all I want in this world.
They like the idea of total brand consistency? Like if they made a Back To The Future Movie where Marty wore his red jacket in every single scene.
Odds are its brand related garbage. Like keeping the brand 'cohesive'.
Depending on how Nintendo is internally structured, certain departments may or may not have certain privileges or access or 'time to convince people they're worthwhile', or something.
Another, is brand consolidation.
They don't want ANYONE but a 100% integrated house doing anything out of fear of splits, mergers or whatever, causing even PARTS of the Nintendo brand to end up in ANYONE's hands. Even if it's such a tiny fraction it's functionally worthless.
The end point is the same:
Dumb stupid.
SharpEdgeSoda
Laziness is all i can gather
Because they still listen to miyamoto like hes queen of England when he should be nothing more than a figurehead now
Nice
The inability to create unique characters is soooo stupid.
Ummmmm
Did you see what Sega did to Captain Falcon and his new band of original characters??
Nintendo is the parent who doesn't let their kids go to other kids' homes after "the pants ripping incident."
AverageJoe5050 it’s not going to another kids house, it’s creating new ones or modifying already existing ones. If this didn’t happen we wouldn’t have geno or any other Nintendo character. Having to use generic Nintendo character number 23 is really dumb and limiting. Plus we already got original characters from newer Nintendo games. Not saying you’re disagreeing with me, just venting.
Wabuu!!
Jackoski 19
I'm just venting too.
Allowing an established universe to expand can be a blessing and a curse, it's simply the nature of change.
Though it's especially scary when you let a guest play with your ideas.
Sometimes you get a Breath of the Wild.
Sometimes you get a Faces of Evil CD-i.
AverageJoe5050 I think it’s very important that they let their devs try out new things. They can’t just rely on the same characters forever. Certain ones like Mario and Zelda you can. But you always have to be inventive, without it we wouldn’t have gotten Mario in the first place.
A paraphrased quote from Ant-Dude. Edited for this context.
"This game suffers from an identity crisis. It either wants to emulate what made the franchise great in the first place, or wants to make sure each *game* is different just for the sake of every *game* being different regardless if the *gimmicks* are *any good*. Spoiler. It didn't really work."
But in this case, they're absolutely going for the latter.
Very great description of the problem!! :D
I mean, Origami King was actually pretty good, so I guess they're sorta understanding how to do the latter better?
@Rómulo Figueroa I for one enjoyed it better than TTYD
Lol AntDude
Gimmicks aren't necessarily bad. The problem with Nintendo is that they like to shove ALL their gimmicks down your throat. The good ones AND the bad ones.
I mean the original games were already simplified RPG experiences... Accesible to all people
I played the beginning parts of the first one before I could even read, you can't get any more casual.
... or at least, I thought so xD
It's probably Nintendo being Greedy again.
@@starless4146 I don't see how this has anything to do with greed
Paper Mario 64 was literally "baby's first rpg", it couldn't be any more casual
*Starless I mean that would be true... if Color Splash had actually sold really well. Only .186 million units later, I don’t get this interview at all. From a business standpoint, it’s really stupid to not only make a sequel to a game barely anybody liked, I.E. Sticker Star to Color Splash, not even fix any of the big problems, and then release another game of a very similar style after the one before sold horribly.
Imagine instead of Super Mario Odyssey, we got another 3D World style game. Would it have sold as well as Odyssey is doing right now? I like to think that game sells as well as it does not just because it went back to try refine an older formula, the sandbox Mario, but also because... it just looks interesting.
Mario could interact with realistic humans, snail people, and those weird fish ladies. You could capture these plants with extendable legs, tanks, heck even capturing basic Mario enemies is a ton of fun. It’s weird, it’s wild, no other Mario game(at the moment at least) has these sorts of things.
Origami King does however. I mean yeah it has enemies turned into origami, but that doesn’t change the fact they’re still basic Mario enemies. There are characters that have important roles in the story, but again it’s still as simple as a Bob-omb without a fuse or toad in an Archaeologist outfit. Interacting with series staple like Kamek, Bowser, and Jr. is admittedly pretty cool. But they are still old characters we’ve seen before.
Should probably say I actually really enjoy Origami King, I think it’s a great game. It’s just it’s lack of visual diversity, which is now a rule for some reason, is going to hurt the sales of not only Paper Mario, but Mario as a whole. That’s why everybody beats the NSMB series to a pulp; they all look and feel the same.
“We cannot modify Mario characters anymore.”
Pink Gold Peach
Dr Baby Rosalina/Peach/Daisy
Dr Fire Luigi
Gold Dry Bowser
Gold Dry Bones
Luigi (Classic)
Rosalina (swimsuit)
Wario (hiker)
Mario (hakama)
(breathes deeply) *OK NINTENDO*
Intelligent systems (the people who made the last 3 paper Mario games) is a 3rd party company. Mario kart tour is made by Nintendo themselves, they have the right to modify.
Not to mention all the new enemies in Mario Odyssey that WEREN'T just rehashes of older enemies from older games.. but yeah...
Ok Nintendo :/
Waynetastic that’s first party tho. But yeah it is a bummer
but these are just different outfits etc.; I think he means making new and unique characters that are based on existing enemies etc., like Goombella.
But they can modify Peach into Origami form.
‘We don’t want to do the same thing twice’
*cries in nsmb*
that's why they never made another nsmb since nsmbu
Naufan Abdurrohim yes, but they remade it
@@Skyfin101 But now with Bowset--errr Peachette.
@@naufanabd yeah 2 generations later
@@Skyfin101 They didn't remake it, they ported over a nearly 7 year old game. 7 years of not having another NSMB game, a series that had games release within the same years of each other.
"you can't make new characters in mario"
also maro: dark souls dragon
not to mention like any mario and luigi game, those have like a bajillion new characters
@@certifiedidiocracy8036 true
@@certifiedidiocracy8036 nah I think miyamoto got to them too. That's why paper jam recycles old characters unlike older games and have only made remakes since then. Now their bankrupt v
They mean spin offs games.
Ngl, that was an epic boss 😂
These developers are so out-of-touch. Reminds me of when Junichi Masuda claimed that they don't make "jerk" Pokemon rivals anymore because due to the newer graphics, they don't have to have strong personalities to convey emotion.
Like what on earth is that reasoning?
I think his point (still kinda dumb) is that with the ability to see crazy facial expressions, they dont need to be over the top jerks. Think HGSS, the face of your rival is like 10 pixels. He needed to be angry otherwise he would be SO bland. In the newer games they can make almost human facial expressions, but that doesnt mean they should have good personalities.
well, they kinda fixed that issue with Bede, he's kinda a 'jerk' rival, until he has a change of heart at the end, and that could very well be character growth thanks to Ms. opal.
@@poligarf3
Bede doesn't count because he's in an overall shit game. The rival you're looking for is Hugh.
That's a total contradiction and a really dumb excuse. Unless it's a confession that they just port animations from the 3DS games and stick em in the new ones. And it doesn't even make sense because there are still jerky characters in Pokemon
@@Mario87456 excluding Sakurai tho. Who in the world doesn't like that man? Everytime he does a smash direct showcasing the fighters himself, it's always so wholesome and the community just loves that shit. I wish certain other developers were like that in the media
I would like it if they made a “Mario Story” franchise in the same style as the old Paper Mario games.
ikr?? And watch how Well it would sell compared to these "paper mario" Paper games.
@@starless4146 i think origami is going to sell well. i mean the amount if ads that were on youtube was crazy. i would see an ad almost every 3 videos
Origami King is going sell incredibly well, despite how many don't like it. I do desperately wish that this idea of Mario Story could become true
I’d like a Paper Mario game. The last 3 were all Sticker Mario. Riding on the original series IP just for money. It’s always about... money.
Mario Story is, incidentally, the original Japanese title for Paper Mario.
EDIT 2: Thanks for reading my absurdly long comment, y’all. I just wanted to post a big reminder up here that it’s all speculation at the end of the day. I've also come to believe that there are likely many other factors beyond just Miyamoto's involvement. As a side note, the Iwata Asks archive isn't actually "broken" as I originally thought and the "treatment of Bowser" quote is actually something Tanabe said in the Sticker Star I.A. So the Dream Team stuff is pure speculation on my part. Apologies for the mistake. Original comment follows:
It’s Miyamoto. It’s always been Miyamoto. At least, there’s copious evidence for it. This will be very long, but if anyone cares to know why things went the way they did with Paper Mario and the Mario RPGs in general, I believe I have a pretty solid evidence-based theory (and clearly too much time on my hands).
The Sticker Star Iwata Asks interview makes it pretty clear cut how much Miyamoto “persevered” with the series, as Iwata says, and what he wanted in terms of characters and story (and this is Miyamoto, these aren’t just “suggestions” when the man is treated like a god at the company), but in an interview about Color Splash with Game Informer from 2016 (“Afterwords-Paper Mario: Color Splash” if you want to google it), Tanabe reiterates how he is just respecting Miyamoto’s wishes when asked about the generic character designs. The “no longer possible” phrasing is scary, but I think it’s just a translation thing and his meaning is likely the same as “no longer allowed”, or basically just another reiteration of the "rules" except not throwing Miyamoto under the bus with fans this time.
But it goes much deeper than that. If you look at the timeline of Mario RPGs and Mario games overall, there is a very clear turnover when things started to take a turn for the more homogenized and less varied and creative, basically after the success of New Super Mario Bros. and Super Mario Galaxy, the latter of which, while very creative in a lot of ways, was also the 3D Mario to bring back a lot of familiar classic aesthetic elements after the deviant Super Mario Sunshine. After this point, the main Mario series went from being almost as diverse as the Zelda franchise to largely a series of derivative sequels and nostalgic throwbacks until Odyssey breathed some much needed life into it a decade after Galaxy first hit the scene.
Then we have the RPGs, typically always where Mario could be free to really get weird and different, but that also began to change after Super Paper Mario in 2007 and Bowser’s Inside Story in 2009. There was Sticker Star in 2012 of course, but then there was Mario & Luigi: Dream Team in 2013, a game with plenty of new characters and non-standard elements, sure, but *spoiler warning if you haven't played it* also a very awkward shoehorning of Bowser into the story, where he uncharacteristically steals the spotlight from the game’s original antagonist instead of the other way around, as had been par for the course for the RPGs up to that point. I recall reading an interview at the time (probably the Iwata Asks for Dream Team, which I’d confirm but the Iwata Asks archive seems to be completely broken these days) where the developers made a comment about Miyamoto being critical of the way they’d treated Bowser in the past, perhaps alluding to the RPGs' long history of tending to treat Bowser like a joke or an afterthought, or alternatively as an anti-hero, which perhaps Miyamoto didn't like.
Fast-forward to 2015 and we have Mario & Luigi: Paper Jam, an instance of Sticker Star’s influence *literally* invading the Mario & Luigi series, and while admittedly a game I never played because of how bland it looked, seemed by all accounts to basically be the “Sticker Star” of Mario & Luigi games, featuring a homogenized cast of characters, the Koopalings, bog-standard environments…all that stuff many of us have come to know and loathe. Afterwards we got "cleaned up" remakes of Superstar Saga and BIS, which make alterations to the more novel character designs from the original games, homogenizing the toads and giving certain enemies like the Hammer Bros. their now standard design.
Games like Super Paper Mario and BIS might have just gone too far and felt “not Mario” anymore to Miyamoto, deviating too greatly from the way he envisions the world and characters he originally created, and as Tanabe put it, leading the games “away from the Mario universe”, so he reined them in. There's also the fact that Miyamoto has on numerous occasions demonstrated that he really doesn't think Mario and involved stories mix, and apparently even when it comes to the RPGs, so just the very instance of a Mario game having a story at all might be seen as getting "away from the Mario universe" to Miyamoto. He might have also just wanted to simplify and homogenize the whole Mario family to keep things neat and simple. Miyamoto seems to like simplicity to an extent, and mainly seems to focus on game mechanics to an extreme degree, so anything that doesn’t underlie those mechanics in some way or draw their “form from function” as has been discussed in the past might seem extraneous and contemptible to him. I’ve long had a theory that for the last decade or so perhaps only the core Super Mario series (games like 3D World and Odyssey) have been allowed by Miyamoto to introduce original elements, or perhaps Miyamoto simply trusts Yoshiaki Koizumi and his developers with the brand, whereas Tanabe broke that trust with the previous Paper Mario weirdness he got away with. So Koizumi gets to have New Donkers and Steam Gardeners and Tanabe has to strain to make a sea of identical toads stand out. Maybe I’m going too far into the realm of speculation now, but at the very least it does seem that Paper Mario *uniquely* has to play it safe at the moment.
It's possible the Switch era marks a change in this policy, and perhaps at this point the PM series is just stuck in a rut in this regard that Sticker Star put it in...Miyamoto might not even actively be requesting generic characters anymore, but Tanabe and company might just assume or are used to this way now.
Look, I know people love Miyamoto and it might be hard to accept that he might be the main reason why one of their favorite series drastically lost its way, and I don’t want to start a hate train on Miyamoto with all this. The man is a legend, and deserves plenty of respect, but I’m of the opinion that series like Mario and Zelda have grown beyond him, and now have a variety of people that can be called their “creators” in a sense. *Especially* a spin-off like Paper Mario, which Miyamoto ultimately probably had little actual creative involvement in by the time of TTYD and SPM, when it really established its unique identity. In addition, I don’t think that the problem is that Miyamoto is a terrible meddler with terrible ideas, but rather he’s an eccentric creative mind that like all creatives can have good ideas and bad ideas. The real problem is how much power he has, and how often he’s gone unquestioned due to the enormous amount of respect he garners at the company. Any time one person has this much creative power in this kind of situation, it can lead to trouble.
So basically, while I’m sure Tanabe certainly has a good amount of say in the direction of these games, he far from deserves all the blame (not saying that’s what Arlo is doing, for the record, just speaking generally). When Tanabe says “the elaborate story led the game away from the Mario universe” and immediately follows it with “personally, I like games with stories” (note the *personally* here), to me that sounds like, “look, I liked the more involved storytelling too, but my hands are tied here”. That said, he does seem to genuinely have a ton of respect for Miyamoto, so he may be content with working within these restrictions, for better or worse (…for worse in my opinion, obviously).
Also, in addition to everything I’ve discussed about Miyamoto’s role in all this, the simple fact that the staff making Paper Mario now is mostly entirely different than the original staff of the first three is a major factor that many people are either unaware of or frequently ignore.
For me, the Mario series should be a creative canvas open to pretty much anything, which is exactly what it used to be, so I am strongly opposed to any kind of muting of the series’ creativity in these ways, but I just wanted to offer some possible, reasonable explanations as a longtime, somewhat jaded but still passionate Nintendo fan who can’t help but see all the patterns after following all this junk for so long. For now, I’ve personally made the decision to just not buy these new PM games if I still see these frustrating restrictions in place. Origami King looks pretty cool in many ways and a definite improvement from SS and CS in terms of characterization, storytelling, and environments from what I've seen and heard, so I’ll try to pick it up used at a discount much later, but the most effective way to really tell Nintendo I’m unhappy with the fact that the developers aren't allowed to alter a toad or make an original character design for flip's sake is to just not give them my money, even if the impact of such might ultimately be minute.
If you actually got through all this, thanks for reading. And please join me in now taking a much-needed break from the Nintendo bubble for a little while.
EDIT: I found another important, potentially illuminating detail. It might not be solely Miyamoto to blame, but rather a "quality assurance" team (that likely includes Miyamoto) assigned to keeping tabs on the Mario series. This comment is already too long for youtube, so I had to post the details of this discovery in the comments below this post.
Tried to add an important edit, but my thesis here is already too long I think because youtube won't let me lol So I'll post it here instead.
After some more research (thanks to a tip from twitter user "TheCJBrine" who commented on Arlo's tweet with this video), I found a resetera thread about this interview where someone shared a quote from an apparent "insider" called "Aquamarine" who supposedly said this a few years back: "Here's the truth: Nintendo has a quality assurance team whose goal is to make sure that all of the characters and worlds stay consistent. It was established after the early Wii era...people like Miyamoto noticed around 2009-ish that Nintendo contractors like Camelot / Alphadream / Intelligent Systems were getting a little too liberal with their interpretations of the Mario IP...so now they watch over everything and establish standards. It's this team that prevents Waluigi from appearing outside of sports games."
While the source is incredibly nebulous, the timeline adds up here, and I'm inclined to believe there's some truth in this. So perhaps it's not solely Miyamoto's personal wishes, but rather a team (perhaps lead by him or at least including him) that keeps tabs on the Mario series after games like Super Paper Mario went too far off the rails (which makes me love and appreciate that game all the more). No one except the devs themselves can say for sure, but if this is true, I can partly understand why they'd want to be extra careful with Mario and not just let any outside party do anything with the series, but...sort of like Arlo said, they "overcorrected". The ironic thing is that, if this is all true, this "quality assurance" had the exact opposite effect in my opinion, leading to a lot of "too safe", stale, and rather bland games that ended up damaging the brand in my opinion. A new Mario game doesn't seem to carry as much weight these days, and I think that is in part because of games like the New Super Mario Bros. series and 3D Land/World, which are definitely not "bad" by any means, but even 3D World (definitely the most spirited of the bunch) is highly derivative of past games in many regards. And I obviously don't need to mention here how much less exciting and how troubled the Mario "RPGs" are these days. Of course, I'm speaking from the game enthusiast bubble, and perhaps none of this matters to Nintendo if games like the "New" series sold very well, which they did. Luckily, Odyssey also sold super well, which is such a relief to me, and hopefully means at least the main series will continue down a creative path.
So much for that "Nintendo break" I guess! This whole Paper Mario situation is just one of the most bizarre in Nintendo's history.
@@patrickarnall6583 lol this made me laugh. Feels like it!
I want to copy and paste this entire body of text for future reference but YT Mobile won't let me :(
Hopefully I'll be able to track this comment down later on my PC, or... *HEY ARLO!* would you mind pinning this comment?
There is a quote: You either die a hero or live long enough to see yourself become the villain.
Miyamoto is doing just that. He was the hero of Nintendo... but is slowly becoming the villain and center piece which led to Paper Mario now being forced to cause half the community to suffer at any given choice.
Very good essay but I say that Bowser inclusion in Dream Team was actually genius as it actually develops his character from the previous game as his jealously and growth as a villian finally allowed to one up the antagonist of the game, and Dreamy Bowser was just awesome design wise.
How can these people say "wE aLwaYs WaNNa Do sOmeThiNg NeW" but then limit themselves to never making new characters? Like wtf?
@@camthesaxman3387 that's not necessarily the truth: the Nintendo games are creative, and its sounds like the developres chose those decisions.
@@maorivirs8752 I'm not so sure. The interview definitely made it sound more like they were physically unable to do it, not that they were making a creative decision. I would be very surprised if they were willingly choosing to make stuff like the Oragami King boss fights. It seems like way more of a frustrating decision on Nintendo's part than anything else, forcing these spinoffs to be less creative than they would be otherwise.
@@dracocrusher that might be true, but it doesn't explain the jab towards fans
Spoilers
In the ending, king olly wanted to kill all the toads because one toad did something to him and "all the toads are the same" plus, the company said a long time ago they wanted to create something else. Very suspicious
@@maorivirs8752 I don't think being forced into it and disliking being criticised are mutually exclusive ideas, anyone can be irritated by backlash no matter the circumstance. It is really dumb that that's in the game, though, because it feels like he's saying "This is what the fans are like".
Because NEW means removing content.
Tanabe: We at Nintendo are always striving to try something new.
Also Tanabe: It's not possible to do anything new with Mario.
Or FZero. That’s the same excuse why we can’t have a modern refresher on that. “We don’t know anything new we can do with FZero”. Sometimes you don’t need new. You need what people want.
@@KryptKicker5 You know how some exclusive Japan only F-Zero games have track editors? Add that to GX and make it HD.
@@rainehappy7097 that would be awesome.
@@camthesaxman3387 those are all rehases
@@newdawnhorizon9879 i think hes joking but idk
What really frustrates me with nintendo's persistence on accessibility is that it can be easily solved just by adding a difficulty option, its literally that simple. Easy mode for casuals and normal and hard mode for everybody else. So many AAA titles already do this so its all the more baffling that nintendo willingly chooses to compromise the entire gameplay experience when the solution is right there
@Ghost_Troupe Nintendo has shown that they're fully capable of having difficulty options, notable example being some of the zelda tites (granted some of the hard modes were activated after beating the games which I think is stupid). Its not some foreign concept to them, so I when I play nintendo games that are too easy for their own good (luigi's mansion 3), I wonder why a simple hard mode couldn't suffice lol
@Multi Hardcore who said anything about different gameplay style? There are so many simple touches that they could do to make the entire experience of a game more challenging. Increase enemy health pool, make the player take more damage, makes essentials like health pickups less abundant, the list goes on...
Fire Emblem does it, idk why any others can't do it
Nintendo is targeted to children. It is a codex etablished back when they decided the strategy for the NES. And it never changed, but it got expanded when the WII lured in the casual gamers. And when something works Nintendo runs it to the death. Games need to be accessible, easy and with a low learning curve to have success with their two targets.
@Multi Hardcore yeah those game might be a lost cause lol, tho I think luigi mansion 3's main flaw (its difficulty) could have been fixed had it included a hard mode
“Am I out of touch? No. It is the fans who are wrong.”
Wrong answer, right answer
It matters no-
@@davidsalazar2077 you call hamburgers steamed hams?
@kaymyu
You know what's sad? Some of their other series like Animal Crossing, Smash Bros. and Kirby for example, just keep improving and tweaking the main formula instead of completely shifting the basic mechanics and they please both old fans and new fans alike.
Stuff like Return to Dreamland, Triple Deluxe, Planet Robobot and Star Allies. Star Allies had some problems in the release, but they released dozens of new content. That's a good way to threat both new and old fans alike.
Personally I do not consider myself a fan of Paper Mario anymore since Sticker Star, the series is a fucking mess and that's just sad because a game like PM/TTYD is one of my biggest gaming wishes.
(SPM was also very good, despite being different)
Also, RIP Mario & Luigi series, there's basically no Mario Themed RPGs now for RPG enthusiasts since Nintendo keeps shifting the formula of one, and the other is pretty much dead.
Guess I'll just stick to Bug Fables for now.
kaymyu “They want to make THEIR game that THEY want”
How and why is it a bad thing for a game developer to make the game they want to make. If they don’t want to do TTYD formula, then why should they do it? Why would they make a game FOR TTYD fans and not enjoy making it when they could just as easily make a game they enjoy making that is also enjoyed by fans of the newer Paper Mario formula.
Here's my opinion on this interview:
It is definitely frightening, but it is also a symptom of a real problem; Nintendo doesn't like how contract developers expand upon the Mario brand. Apparently, there was a rumor going around on twitter explaining that the reason why the Mario world has to be kept "consistent" was because Nintendo created a watchdog team in response to how many contract developers making games for the Mario IP were taking more creative liberties than what the Big N would like. Their purpose is to apparently railroad developers into keeping with already established Mario conventions for the world and that they are not allowed to take as many creative liberties outside of one-shot characters.
As suspicious as this rumor is, I definitely believe for it to be true because of the demise of one company: AlphaDream. Prior to this team established during the Wii era, AlphaDream had expanded heavily upon the Marioverse with their games; Superstar Saga introduced the BeanBean Kingdom, Partners in Time introduced the Shroobs, Bowser's Inside Story expanded upon the lore of the Mushroom Kingdom and Dream Team (despite being a game developed post-team creation) established a lore involving dreams and nightmares in the Mushroom Kingdom.
After these four games? AlphaDream made Paper Jam, which felt significantly less ambitious with its world and characters, and the next two games were remakes! Superstar Saga was a needed remake, but Bowser's Inside Story was not needed whatsoever, yet they remade it despite it being one of the worst ideas ever. But why?
This is where the idea of a Mario Watchdog team by Nintendo starts making sense; after their development of Dream Team concluded, this team more than likely forced AlphaDream into either creating new Mario games with new guidelines or remake older games. That would explain why explain why this once thriving developer was forced into making mediocrity and ended up dying from it.
Keep in mind that this team only goes after contracted developers working on specifically Mario-branded games. This means that Mario Odyssey is excluded because the core Mario team can freely expand upon the lore of the Mario games and games like Luigi's Mansion and WarioWare are excluded because they are not specifically Mario-branded games despite having Mario characters in them.
It's all about Brand Protection when it comes to this team, and Tanabe's words allude to how the existence of such a team exists.
Sadly it all makes sense. Restriction rules are what's preventing a full potential of these series.
I can understand that, probably trying to prevent something like Boshi(and arguably any Paper Mario or any AlphaDream characters) from Super Mario RPG from happening since they only own the rights to the Species but NOT the characters designed off the species. Hence why unless Nintendo buys the rights to those characters or a game is made by that studio, they can use those characters but Nintendo cannot. Hence why none of the Paper Mario + AlphaDream characters appear in Mario Kart or Mario Party (Hurts a lil ngl cause I really love Prince Dreambert,, he's probs one of my favorite Mario characters)
@@abyss1315
The good news is that Nintendo absorbed the rights to M&L after AlphaDream died, so it's possible to see M&L characters in Mario spinoffs.
The bad news is that AlphaDream had to die for that to happen. RIIIIIIIIP
@@abyss1315 So the whole Square issue still haunts Nintendo to this day and they don't want the same to happen with Intelligent Systems and AlphaDream. This prevents Mario spinoff series by other companies to freely develop creatively unlike back then.
This is like what Sega has done to Sonic, and the series suffered for it.
The funny thing is, as a "casual gamer" who really only plays life sims and farming games... these new gimmicky Paper Mario games don't appeal to me at all.
Because you don't like action-adventure games, you literally said you mainly play the sims and farming games
I’m sorry if I was unclear, I played paper mario sticker star as a child, I’ve played lots of games targeted toward casual gamers, not just life sim/farming. I personally don’t enjoy the route paper mario has taken after learning about the original games, but it’s ok if you guys do!
That phrasing doesn’t even make sense either, are they implying that back in 2004 when TTYD came out that they were making that to appeal to the most hardcore, not-children/family gamers they could? No, that’s obviously absurd. How are those games any less casual than these? It just doesn’t make sense
I love how they pushed Bug Fables back to November on the Switch because they KNEW it would steal Origami King's thunder.
gimmicks get old real fast. if the core gameplay and story isnt good, then the game would get low reviews
Whoa, whoa, whoa...people didn't like Super Paper Mario's story? Its arguably the best part of the game.
Also, PLEASE leave Metroid Prime out of this. You guys are starting to worry me about MP4.
They THOUGHT people didn't like Super Paper Mario's story ... but that result was from asking only Club Nintendo members. Which is way too narrow a group and infuriating as hell that they took that to mean "Paper Mario fans."
Yeah Nintendo has me worried about MP4 as well. I'm not even a huge fan of the original or anything, but I can totally see them trying to 'do something new' or 'innovate the series' and completely ruin it. It's so hit or miss with Nintendo IPs these days.
I believe they are also twisting the data from the poll from " x% said the story was their favourite thing about SPM" to get to "y% didn't like the story of SPM"
@@klg9549 Japanese Club Nintendo members, the hardcore of the hardcore
I remember filling out a survey thing as a review after I beat it and registered it for my Nintendo points or whatever (I had just graduated High School at the time). And the questions were set up in the "how important is a big high stakes story to you?" format with the spectrum of "don't want it" to "it doesn't matter" to "it has to be super soap opera!" responses and then a comment box.
I put "it doesn't matter to me" and filled in something to the tune of "the story doesn't matter so much about what it is or what is at stake or how big it has to be, so long as it's *there* and gives us interesting places and characters and good lines of dialogue".
Obviously, they interpreted my input to mean that "story is garbage, take it out of my Paper Mario games!!!!" because whoever was doing data analysis obviously wanted to take story out of Paper Mario games and interpreted responses how they wanted.
I also said made mention that the problem was trying to mix platforming game and RPG genres together in ways that didn't really mix well, and that was why I marked it lower than previous Paper Mario games and that it should stick to the RPG origins. *shrug*
Random interviewer on the street: “At it’s core, what are the paper Mario games to you”
Literally every paper Mario fan ever: “a really fun RPG”
Tanabe: *WRONG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!*
Disturbing isn’t quite a strong enough word. Nintendo wants to “always do something new” but then stifle creativity so hard at every turn and then seem confused when some games are received so poorly.
Sorry I’m late but I’m not sure why you are putting the blame on Nintendo as if they developed the Paper Mario games? I mean I can talk to you about other things that most people don’t talk about. Arlo seems to be confused on this and felt “disturbed”, which I 100% agree with, HOWEVER; people are thinking on what Tanabe has said and himself represent Nintendo as a whole but I don’t see anyone complaining about this more towards Tanabe and Intelligent Systems. Tanabe is the main reason why Paper Mario has this “downfall” it has been since Sticker Star.
@@electricnova2256 it was Miyamoto responsible for Sticker Star. Tanabae was the problem for the other 2.
@@Mojo1356 Makes no sense when the three “newer” games had Miyamoto as a supervisor while Tanabe was a producer since he’s the one making the decisions and seems to be more interviewed than other people working on Paper Mario since he’s responsible for it. Even Miyamoto was a supervisor for Dream Team and most of the game’s decisions were made by AlphaDream and even that game came out a year after Sticker Star. You don’t see interviews on Miyamoto on his involvement with Paper Mario nowadays because he clearly isn’t the one making the decisions and isn’t the one responsible for it. Super Mario Galaxy 2 had him be involved with the development and made the decisions, and even he was interviewed since he’s responsible for it. It goes the same for Tanabe. If Miyamoto was really responsible for Sticker Star, why wasn’t he the one that made decisions in the games like Color Splash, because he was not part of the games development and Tanabe is responsible for it. If Miyamoto was more involved in the game and was the producer who made the decisions, than yes it can be his fault but here it’s not.
@@electricnova2256 dude. Miyamoto was heavily involved with Sticker Star while he wasn’t in the later 2 games.
@@Mojo1356 Can you at least prove it? Because I told you why he wasn’t heavily involved with it.
Do you listen to fan feedback?
Tanabe: “Yes, but to those people I say, there’s so much new stuff in these games. That should be enough for you. Stop complaining about old stuff, k thanks bye.”
Sounded like typical politician talk lol
Just dances around the actual question/topic and spits out some premade unrelated answer.
Tanabe: shut up and consume product
Mario RPG, Super Paper Mario, and origami king had far superior combat compared to the slow slog of endless backtracking that was Mario 64 and ttyd.
Ttyd. Chapter 1, way too slow, easy and boring. Chapter 2,4,7 non-stop backtracking and useless dialogue. Chapter 3 is 23 glorified random battles. Restricting the already slow battles was so stupid. Chapter 6 was ok but you do pretty much nothing but talk to characters and win. Chapter 7 tries to hype you up but it's so bland and just a series of tedious tasks. Palace of shadows is hours of reskinned bowser's castle from Mario 64 which was pretty much stolen from smithy and bowser's invaded castle. ttyd and 64 story and battle are shit compared to rpg, super, And origami
So you're upset that the developers get to do what they want to make it fun, instead of forcing the same people to make the same game year after year? I hope you like flipping patties because that's all you'll be doing because we the fans only want you to make hamburgers. You aren't allowed to make anything else, only hamburgers the rest of your life.
doing paper gimmicks in three games in a row is nothing new...
I think this points to the issue with the "bringing something new" argument. Mario Odyssey brings new ideas and mechanics, but it unquestionably plays like a sequel to Mario 64. SS/CS/TOK don't feel like they're sequels to 64/TTYD. The problem isn't that the games aren't "TTYD clones," it's that they don't even feel like they're part of the same series anymore. If you like that change, that's fine. There's nothing wrong with liking the new games. But people don't want a TTYD clone. They just want to play a game that feels like it's part of the same series.
Yeah, I groan whenever someone talks about a "TTYD2". What we want is Paper Mario 3.
Honestly, TTYD was not a copy of PM64. But it reflected the spirit of it, while doing its own thing. That's why it was so good.
Same with botw taking out item progression altogether...
Finally, someone points out THIS!!
Like, I don't want an Ocarina of Time clone but for me personally, Breath of the Wild just didn't feel like Zelda and wasn't my cup of tea. I want a sequel to more old-school 3D Zeldas...so while I don't really care what form Paper Mario takes, I do so very much understand the pain that fanbase feels.
*looks up* OMG I'm not even the only one who brought up Zelda. That's crazy, I'm usually so alone in this!
@@yzois To be honest it isn't.
There's a broader discussion regarding the character stuff in the greater context of Mario Spinoffs in general. There's even a lot with how characters are portrayed. Mario Strikers Charged probably cannot exist in the same way after roughly the release of Mario Galaxy which is where they started to have a tighter grip on the Mario Brand.
Except it can.
Now that you mention it, strikers charged may have been a contributing factor to this change (as much as we now look at the fleshed out character personalities fondly). Things like making peach a camera loving diva, waluigi’s crotch chopping and general move away from comic relief to just boisterous, as well as the general increase in aggressiveness across the cast most certainly would not fly with current Nintendo
I think the Mario Brand has always been tightly gripped, with the occasional freedom given to 3rd party designers(like strikers and mario costumes in bayonetta) when they felt like it. I think it’s just a similar case to Pokemon: don’t do more than you have to. The people in charge want to make a quality product but it doesn’t seem like they have the desire to enrich game worlds like Intelligent Systems did. I think to them, generic toads have worked since ‘85 so if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it.
Which is why Galaxy 2 got strangled in the cradle the way it was, it was slated to have a proper story like Galaxy 1 but this time Miyamoto caught it in time and put his foot down.
@@BB_Boah but in Pokemon's case you could make a multitude of spinoffs and still be able to make more with the amount of characters there are. Over 1000 unique characters. Mario...ain't got much. Especially with Paper Mario. You got the Toads, Mario, Peach, Bowser, occasionally Luigi, and then generic baddies. Paper Mario through SPM all had unique and interesting character. Hell most characters have a backstory that gets resolved one way or another.
The fact that Miyamoto, the person I look up to the most, dangles what we want out of Paper Mario the most and says "you can't have this, you have to settle for that abomination" hurts (side note that abomination is SS, the game we don't talk about)
This needs to be fixed or else Paper Mario is dead. There is little hope we'll ever have anything like the first 3. ESPECIALLY nothing like SPM. I'm glad Bug Fables is on switch cuz that's what Paper Mario should be. Unique characters with a unique story. Even the main characters grow over time.
Just...give us that...give us something that made Paper Mario what it used to be. Not Origami King or Color Splash or...well you get it.
“They don’t want to do the same thing again”
**Meanwhile at Gamefreak**
"How do we... you know... do it again"
"Reuse models?"
*GENIUS*
In an alternate timeline, Intelligent Systems overuses the exact same idea (which i mean some already believe) and GameFreak treats each core series Pokemon game as if they were spin-offs.
Also AlphaDream never went bankrupt. Rest in peace
Fans: Can we have a good Pokemon game?
Game Freak: You get, NOTHING!!!
@Blade Gaming Sword And Shield felt like below average games to me. Even the dlc they released was below average.
Although, my previous comment was meant to be a joke(Maybe below average XD).
Blade Gaming they’re enjoyable, but compared to the mainseries games before it, they aren’t very good.
And the DLC, which I was excited for, because DLC makes more sense that a 3rd game, but so far it seems to be a combination of cut mid and post game content.
Hopefully the next games are better though. *But for now, I’m just replaying a lot of the other games (Platinum, soul silver, black, ect)*
It’s disappointing to hear what is quite possibly
THE OPPOSITE of switch era game development.
tbh
@SilentG While I do agree with you, I don't think you should include Fire Emblem in that list. Three Houses has a variety of features, even past the stuff Awakening introduced to make it more casual friendly, that water down the challenge so much that the base line classic/normal doesn't appeal to the core FE fanbase becuse it's too easy, and that's not even mentioning the nightmare that is the story. It definitely doesn't fit in with the other list, but I would not put it alongside Breath of the Wild & Mario Odyssey
@@Druid-T what makes you think the core fanbase is playing Normal? They're ALL playing Hard or Maddening. It's casuals like me who play Normal.
@@yzois How is Xenoblade 2 casual
@@Druid-T from a newbie, how is Three Houses? Should I buy it?
You know, given that Miyamoto vocally dislikes RPGs as a genre, I'm starting to genuinely wonder if he's deliberately sabotaging the spinoffs.
That's the only explanation I can think of for why the Paper Mario team keeps being given directives that almost explicitly state "Don't make the Paper Mario games interesting," and offering rationales that are blatant lies ("We don't want to do the same thing again, we always want to do something new" says the company that cranked out four New Super Mario Bros. games that were literally just level packs with shinier graphics?).
Earthbound only happened due to miaymoto stanning for itoi's intial pitch so I doubt that is the case.
Easy. The 2000s were a different era. Perhaps he may have always hated RPGs but tolerated them for the sake of creativity and innovation without limitations.
@S C Tanabe also worked on the earlier PM games, and yet here we are.
If I had to guess, I'd say that SPM changed things. It's easy to forget in a post-Sticker-Star world, but Super Paper Mario got a huge backlash at the time of its release from people angry about its departure from the formula of TTYD.
I think he hates everything done with his precious IP that he didn't come up with. this is why everyone over there hates Waluigi, he was invented for sports games. Then again Kinopiko was invented for karting and she's gotten to appear more
Do you have a source on that? Miyamoto told Tanabe making Sticker Star an RPG would be fine, and Tanabe didn't listen.
iwataasks.nintendo.com/interviews/#/3ds/papermario/0/0
Miyamoto has doubled down on rules that are the antithesis of the innovation that commanded my respect for him in the first place while at the same time mandating that the wheel be reinvented in ways that effectively prevent it from rolling. He needs to seriously reexamine his own preconceptions of where brand integrity and gameplay evolution are respectively needed before he issues any more orders from above to Tanabe and anybody else with hands on Mario or Zelda. Otherwise, he's doomed to have his life's labors end up in the same dumpster fire that George Lucas's did.
Wow... I couldn't have said it better myself.
Miyamoto screwed up the moment he made Tanabe handle his games.
I really have a feeling that Tanabe misinterpreted what Miyamoto says and just does his own thing. (which ends up garbage, AKA SS and CS)
I'd argue it could be headed in a worst direction than Star Wars. Say what you want about the movies, but the movies haven't been the best part of the Star Wars franchise for a very very very long time. The best part has always been how malleable the universe is, and how easy it is to tell really cool self-contained stories within them, like the Mandalorian or Jedi Fallen Order. Star Wars is no worse off than it was 20 years ago for this reason. Mario doesn't have that same luxury.
bro super paper mario's story, writing, and characters CARRIED it.
I disagree that those carried it (they certainly made the game much more memorable though)
Don’t knock on the soundtrack and art design though, they were both really good too
The gameplay was pretty fun too imo. The first paper Mario's gameplay kinda sucked but it was perfected in TTYD. Maybe if super paper mario actually got a spiritual sequel we might actually get a great paper mario game.
@@dalgusmaximus4557 TTYD worsened the gameplay, replacing quality chapter design with fetchquests and backtracking.
The game play was good too! Not as good as the writing but still good
14:09 _Gee, I wonder WHY Bobby is so popular. Could it possibly be that they have a somewhat unique design? Or that there was a genuinely good story, that almost flawlessly leads to a genuinely good character arc for them? ...NAAAAAHHHHHHHHH_
It's still a "grunt" storyline (like the Shy Guys in Color Splash) all things considered -- classic PM makes the character feel like individuals, while character development while decent, feels like you move on because they're side character #20, rather than secondary character -- it's like giving screentime to a background character that could've been put to someone more interesting IMO.
Bobby the Aerith of Paper Mario.
Yeah imagine character coming from ones personality and not the way they look, how ridiculous would that be. As if they could ever make someone get emotionally attached to a simple basic enemy.
Mmm..Bobby best partner of the series?
Whispernyan although I myself prefer personality yes, it’s completely worthless and overshadowed if the character itself can’t even be distinguished from the rest; like, in OK, there was that one NPCs who was treated rather scary and intense, but he has the exact same design like every single other toad, leading to him being easily forgettable anyways.
This whole thing sounds like corporate talk at it's worst and that is really sad.
basically is. lot of what was said was kinda contradictory like points in this video demonstrated, feels like a sanitary consumer friendly way of just addressing the fan outcry with "the things youre all arguing are wrong"
Nintendo: You have to have new ideas if you want your games to sell.
Intelligent Systems: Can we make new character designs so that enemies don't stay bland?
Nintendo: No.
@Caio Coelho Guess Nintendo was right.
@Caio Coelho
The people blindly defending Origami King are leading to the degradation of the once proud-RPG series.
@Caio Coelho what does that have to do with nintendo saying that they want new ideas whilst simultaneously rejecting unique characters?
This, playing origami king with an open mind and seeing the game for what it is made it my favorite (next to 64)
@@tidepoolclipper8657 Blindly defending? Some us just think that it's a pretty good game.
Paper Mario: we don't like to do the same thing twice
Also paper Mario: uses sticker based battles twice in a row.
Does the same "fill in the broken/Uncolored world" mechanic twice in a row...
New Super Mario Bros U Deluxe is like: *cough*
Hypocritze at thier best.
Also paper mario purists: won't accept anything but a carbon copy of the first two games
@@succman3318 lmao
I would not be complaining if they re released super paper mario on the switch tho
Don’t forget the “things”
After watching this, I took a look back and asked myself a question: "what got me into Mario as a kid?" I realized it was more complicated than "oh, I played Super Mario World and it was one of my first gaming experiences". Sure that's true, but what got me _really_ into it? What made me an absolute Mario _freak_ in junior high?
I think there were 2 major things. One was a website called _Lemmy's Land._ The other was the Mario RPG series. I don't think it was a coincidence that I discovered all of these things around the same time, circa 2003-04-ish when I was first moving into middle school. Lemmy's Land was a Mario fansite that started in the late 90s (pretty sure it's defunct now, or at least it's stopped updating). It was a site where people submitted all sorts of user created content, from fanfiction to art, and a lot of that fiction incorporated characters I'd never heard of before. Turns out a lot of these were from a game called Super Mario RPG, a game I was later inspired to seek out and play bc of the site. LL also had guides for Mario 64 and Paper Mario, and I can't help but wonder if that was how I heard of _that_ game too...The site had plenty of original characters beyond that and seemed to be founded on the idea of expanding the Mario universe, something that all the Mario RPG games of the day did significantly, as well as some of my favorite fanfiction like _The Good, The Bad, and the Torte,_ which inspired me to write my own crappy unfinished series and ultimately lead to me becoming a writer.
I didn't like Mario because of the classic Mario gameplay, I liked it because it seemed like this huge, sprawling world full of imagination, with endless possibilities. Mario and Luigi, Paper Mario, and the stories I read, plus stuff like Randy Solem's _Rise of the Mushroom Kingdom_ just fueled my hunger for that stuff. I wasn't there to see it happen, but I imagine what made the original Super Mario Bros so impactful is that it was so different from anything that had come before, that it was this impossible world full of wonder. The whole reason I was so adamant about Nintendo as the _only_ game company for me (that didn't stay the case forever) throughout my early adolescence was because I thought that Nintendo did stuff that was different and unique, something that wasn't just another WW2 shooter. But if they just stop and stand still, even something unique will become stale and stagnant.
Mario and Peach and the Toads alone can't inspire our imaginations forever. That's why it bugs the _hell_ out of me whenever I see someone saying online that I dislike the new Paper Mario games because of nostalgia and that I want things to stay the same. That's the opposite of what I want. I'm playing Bug Fables right now and while the turn based combat is fine, I've realized it's really not what I loved about those old games. Heck, the new Paper Mario could be a 3D platformer, and I'd welcome it with open arms if it blew the doors of the Mario universe wide open again. I wanna meet characters I've never seen and see places I've never been, and experience whole new stories. I think that's at the core of me being a Mario fan.
And the fact that while cleaning up my room, I've found a bunch of drawings of TTYD characters and even my own characters in a similar style seems to confirm how influential those games were on my development.
Yet, sometimes, Nintendo doesn't care about their diehard fans, and gives them one big middle finger. The company itself can sometimes be a double bladed sword.Oh yeah and that question with the casual players, Risa called the critics of the current formula a bunch of bigots.
Ah.. This is so heartfelt and inspiring. Games really shape our hearts and future. 😊
Odyssey did a pretty good job of doing this though, most 3D Marios did tbh
Nintendo's old site was my go to, plenty of people in the forums telling stories and rumors and whatnot. Good times.
@@linus6718 While I have huge issues with Odyssey originally was not _entirely_ one of them. It did a great job at creating a variety of new enemies and characters.
So basically the moral of this story is that Nintendo is afraid their second party studios will make something as great as Odyssey instead of them and fears Mario having depth.
S C what was wrong with SPM? the story was fantastic
Pedro Gomez I love SPM. Nintendo however probably hates it since a second-party studio did something that creative with the Mario brand while not sticking to what they want and made something that good instead of them, which is why the mandates came after that game.
Seems very possible honastly...
@@MetalJrock2299 because at the time, it wasn't a big success
@BlahBlahGamer It actually was a big success, it sold more copies than TTYD.
Paper Mario: a game about Mario in a STORY book
Tanabe: stories aren’t a good fit for paper Mario
yeah, and in paper jam they had the paper characters come out of a story book
When is a story ever bad in any game? Even games that don't like storytelling have some kind of lore to keep you entertained, it becomes a reward for progressing.
The japanese name is LITERALLY mario story
Reading this was so weird for me. I love Super Paper Mario, not because of its gamelay, but because of the story. It is my favorite part of the game by far... So having confirmation that they're actively trying to avoid making more stories like SPM's is kind of sad.
I understand the decision to not make future stories as complex and dark as SPM's, but dumbing them down to the extent they did was... just... why?
@@averysmartidiot5611 That's non canon. There is no story book. The first three games make it very clear it's the real Mario world (Their characters are shown in 3D in later non Paper Mario games.)
The thing about making the games casual friendly is, I was eight when the first Paper Mario came out. Now I was TERRIBLE at RPGs, I couldn't even beat Mario RPG on the SNES until years later because I was so bad at it, and even Pokemon I had trouble with. But Paper Mario was so intuitive and well designed that even I could handle its mechanics and figure them out well enough to beat it on my own. Sure, TTYD was harder, but not by much and it had a lot more quality of life improvements that made it still accessible.
How in the WORLD is that not casual friendly?
Golden Sun is a good place to start RPGs too, and Camelot/Nintendo haven't made a new one in AGES.
64 was nice and casual. It was easy to understand and very fun to play. I don’t think that the puzzle thing is very casual, and isn’t easy to understand. It’s fun sometimes, but... not easy?
@@cadence_2463i agree with you i played 64 around when i was 8 as well and well i had trouble with the puzzles i understood the combat mechanics of course i only fought bowser in the beginning but i still had fun and became a fan of the series ever since and sticker star’s battle puzzle system is… Way more complicated for kid and casual games and i’m still a casual gamer like what logic is tenobay spouting Nonsense thats what its easier for casual gamers da loco
Nintendo has a love-hate relationship with us:
We love them, but they are doing their best to make us hate them.
Lapti Nek literally lmao. they refuse to give us new titles, we’ve only gotten origami king and animal crossing and we are 7 months into the year with no other confirmed releases
I don't hate them. They're a little frustrating at times but I am happy with the games we've been getting in the Switch era.
Saying that they're doing everything to make us hate them sounds hard to believe. Most companies don't try to receive hate with the possible exception of this mockbuster company called "The Asylum" but we don't speak of *that* company.
Such hypocrisy. All the people saying they hate Nintendo now are going buy the shit out of Breath of the Wild 2, and you know it.
@@gonko638 You're not even aware that it's not easy for them to bring games at this point?
Edit: This is the CORONAVIRUS!
13:42
Paper mario: *is paper because its like a story book*
This dude: "I like stories but Paper Mario doesnt really fit with stories."
the original title for the 1st game: am I a joke to you?
Tanabe is a fool
The fact that Tanabe literally says "I personally prefer story driven games" and then went on to say "it's no longer possible to modify Mario characters" makes me REALLY think it's Miyamoto who is pushing the series farther from it's story driven roots.
It’s like the guys in charge just hate everything that made Thousand Year Door great with a passion
no it’s not that simple as those developers were trying to give people a sequel to ttyd but myamoto stopped them which can be seen in the sticker star beta version of where they were giving us everything that was in ttyd but they were forced to go down this route with the series it’s the developers fault that the series is like this it’s nintendo forcing them to get rid of everything that made ttyd great as the developers wanted to give us what we wanted as seen in the sticker star beta version
“No matter what, they don’t wanna do the same thing again”
Pokémon: 👁👄👁💧
Edit: omg I usually hate these kinds of edits but fucking thank y’all for 1k likes never expected so many people to like this🤣
😂
OH THE CONFETTI IS NEW. IT'S NOTHING LIKE THE PAINT MECHANIC AT ALL, WE SWEAR. What's that? You also rescued toads in color splash? THIS TIME IT'S DIFFERENT. The toads are FOLDED
Pokemon is sort of second party, tho. And they definitely keep shoving in weird new nonsense into every new game.
@@Bootleg_Jones oh boy the 🅱️🅰️NTOregion
Difference between first and third party developers and freedom of creation.
"It's impossibly to modify existing chara-"
TAKE A KOOPA. GIVE HIM THE OVERLY 90S AESTHETIC. RADIKOOPA. BAM. NEW CHARACTER.
"Impossible"? More like "Excuse".
now i wanna see art of that, and i'm a terrible artist.
Nintendo won’t allow them to do that. He has to be a generic looking Koopa named Koopa because they said so.
@@MetalJrock2299 Did they though? There's something so sus about how he framed that. We need conformation.
@@MetalJrock2299
Then Nintendo needs to get their head out of their ass and let Intelligent Systems make a good Paper Mario again with less generic characters.
BlackDot AlphaDream had tensions with Nintendo over Dream Team, which is pretty funny timing since this was right around Sticker Star, and by Paper Jam everything interesting and unique about Mario & Luigi vanished.
It’s not looking good for Nintendo here.
The worst part is that we don't even have the Mario & Luigi series to counterbalance the death of Paper Mario anymore.
Duncan McRae that’s what makes this unforgivable
I don't think Paper Mario is I actually found Origami King to be one of my new favourites I mean it still doesn't beat Thousand year door but for me it was an enjoyable game qnd I'd probably put it above Super Paper Mario which makes it my 3rd favourite game in the series.
Exactly
The original developer went bankrupt
Liam Moriarty we know that
“It is no longer possible to make good games.”
Here’s the thing I feel Mario RPGS are really casual friendly to be honest! They are many people’s first RPG! It isn’t a hard RPG either!
This feels like they want to make it even more casual to the point it is a cakewalk.
I mean the Mario RPGs original creator is the same dude who made Final Fantasy Mystic Quest...
Weirdly enough I find this harder than the classics. That's mostly because I suck at puzzle solving though (mostly with the bosses).
Nintendo actually thinks TTYD was a hardcore game...
Nintendo is constantly trying to make their games easier for kids, but we had no problem figuring their games out when we were kids and the games were more complicated/difficult.
@@thevioletbee5879 yeah it's weird, it's still easier since toad spam is a thing but the phoenix (fire) boss was straighr up annoying.Not a fan of bosses having one way to beat it
We have decided to turn the smash brothers series into an interactive choose your own adventure story, because we want to satisfy a broader casual audience. Smash brothers players enjoy reading, so we feel audiences new and old will enjoy this new game.
And I bet some people would still think there's no issue there ;)
Dear lord, just thinking of that makes me want to die lol
@S C they also need to make games that people want to , you know... buy. If they don't, then they lose money and go out of business.
It's a two way street.
I mean, I'd play that lol. But I wouldn't want it to get RID of normal Smash Bros. But I do think having more kinds of games that crossover all of the Nintendo franchises would be cool. Like, I think instead of a new Mario Kart, they should finally just do Super Smash Kart or something.
@S C I don't think they can. Only Sakurai can, so Nintendo can only will him into doing that
Watching this made me realize that Kirby would be a perfect fit for an actual spiritual successor to the old Paper Mario games. Kirby games already dip into aesthetics inspired by real-world crafts, so there's a match. Kirby has a colorful selection of races that play the role of both enemy and friend. Kirby stories cover both lighthearted fluff and deep, dark lore. The existing premise and dynamic of Kirby- Copy Abilities- lends itself well to an easy-to-learn-hard-to-master RPG battle system, and yet we haven't really ever had a true Kirby RPG. And Kirby is already a second-party franchise, so it wouldn't suffer the kind of creative stranglehold we're seeing here.
Kirby also isn’t afraid to create new characters based off of pre-existing enemies (Bandana Waddle Dee, Sailor Waddle Dee, etc.).
@@mittycommitspizzatime92 There was a whole town of them in the anime. This is the main reason I think Paper Kirby would work, really strong side-character potential.
@@RisingSunfish Paper Kirby sounds like a God-Tier game. They should totally hire you.
Uh, yes, Based Department?
Technically paper kirby already exists (which is good)
The non yarn characters in Epic Yarn are paper
“We don’t want to use the same things twice” *continues to keep the fixing holes in the world mechanic*
Four years ago, we got the Gamexplain interview with Risa Tabata, where she mentions Color Splash was developed pretty much as soon as Sticker Star was finished. Okay, I thought, they didn't get feedback in time, maybe next game will be closer to the first two, there's the possibility that things could change. Now, however, there is no room for speculation. They made clear what they want to do with the series, and what they don't want to. The series is not going to change back anytime soon.
I've seen some criticism that PM should've changed because it's a "baby's first RPG", or that we already have Mario & Luigi. Personally, I didn't like RPGs too much because some can go way too far with stats, and just selecting an attack and watching it happen was too boring when I was a kid. Paper Mario, however, was an easygoing RPG with engaging minigame-like attacks, but still had depth with things like badges and partners and the like. It was the "not too simple, not too complicated, just right" RPG for me.
As for M&L, yeah, it's another humorous rpg with Action Commands with Mario characters, but... why not have both? While I never played much of the series (only PiT), I liked their different approach to those elements to what PM did. They had similarities, sure, but they were each their own thing. "We don't need two mario rpg series" was such a STUPID argument even while AlphaDream was still around, and now we have none! Wouldn't now be the time to Paper Mario bring back the rpg elements again? (Also. off-topic, buuut... Nintendo, please bring F-Zero back, we can have both it and Mario Kart at the same time)
The rpg elements were made approachable, instead of removed. The original characters, races and places were not moving "away from the Mario universe", they were expanding it, and even classic ones were given a new interpretation. Paper was an aesthetic, not the actual material the world was made of. While the humour, music and visuals are as good as ever, the lack of the other elements just kills my interest. It's the combination of them all that I loved, not just one or two. I don't doubt The Origami King is a good game, it just lacks what I want.
Ironically, I'm kinda glad this interview happened, now I won't have to worry about PM's future games. It gives me a certainty, even if i don't like it.
This is EXACTLY how I feel. It's disappointing that I'll never play a new Paper Mario again, but I'm excited to try Bug Fables. Hopefully it's as good as I've heard, and hopefully enough interest get generated in those games for them to create more.
In the interview it really sounds like Tanabe is talking down to younger or "casual" players. The older games were made for kids too. His logic is just stupid.
@@LazyGardenGamer Go for it! I haven't finished it yet, but from what I played, Bug Fables is easily the best Paper Mario game since 2007 (or 2004 if you strictly want the classic rpg style, but I still loved SPM, so... =P).
And, thankfully, there's interest in games like this, both from players and developers:
twitter.com/ArloStuff/status/1283497643998494720
twitter.com/DefiantProgram/status/1285720833609146368
Nobody complained, net even the fans, about having two Mario RPG series. Where in the world Nintendo got that idea from when both Paper Mario and Mario and Luigi don't even have the exact same mechanics. The OG Paper Mario series system alligns and expand upon the Super Mario RPG: Legend of Seven Stars formula, while Mario and Luigi is more doing it's own thing as an RPG series.
Nintendo: We can't alter Mario characters too much
Also Nintendo: Hey guys look we made new characters and races for Super Mario odyessy!
I'm pretty sure that limitation is enforced on 2nd/3rd party developed games. They can control what changes in the games within their own company, but they want to make sure that other companies don't get too far from what Mario is
F J G maybe they don’t want another geno situation. Which is like a heavily loved Mario character but is locked behind square Enix?
Ok, what about Luigi's Mansion 3?
@@tigerbritt2620 Probably they don't want something like Super Paper Mario again which was too far apart from the mario universe and had little to do with it, and they don't want the Mario IP to be hurt or something like this
Because along with Odyssey, LM3 and M&L, those games don't have Tanabe/IS working on them.
Fans: did you hear our feedback?
Tanabe: yes. well actually no
He dodged that question like President Trump Dodged a Question from a reporter....
*Starless
Ok, don’t be that guy. Let’s keep this to video games.
@@superduck6456 OH, when it comes to Politics...I'm Far from having any say so over that.
I was just comparing Apples to ... Orange Oranges ... because... well.. Trump is kind'a Orange?
I'll stop.
Them: “Well yes, but actually no.
*Starless you trying to Segway this into a political discussion kind of hurts
If it’s no longer possible to make a good Paper Mario then it’s no longer possible for me to buy Paper Mario games.
So why cant they create new characters that touch mario characters, because if I remember correctly M&L Dream team got new characters, and characters that touch mario characters
Warmute
Then again AlphaDream is dead, so...
@@Cinko420 yeah but that was only last year, dream team came out after sticker star? So how come they could use the Elite Trio?
Don't close your mind to evil!
You guys really thought PM origami king was bad? I like it a lot. Never played any other paper Mario games though
Big shame.
Side note: After playing ttyd so many times and having stylishes practically engraved into muscle memory, seeing them not be used bothers me like you wouldn’t believe.
@Chandster You still take damage in OK if you dont do enough damage or fail the puzzle. And boss battles definitely bring pain if you screw those up. I miss old PM too but lets not exaggerate here.
@Chandster After finishing the game, I can definitely say that the legion of stationary were pretty fantastic bosses. Despite the lack of unique design, the battles were fun, the music was awesome, and the things actually have more personality than you think. Tape actually ended up being my favorite fight aside from the final boss.
I finished ttyd like 3 days ago and i had also finished super paper mario and the thing that i likead about both was the variety of characters there were or the creative conscepts like the mansion on super paper mario where you had to get rupees and the train in ttyd that was a nice breath of air from continuos battles
I feel bad for the devs now, honestly. Knowing that they're just beholden to not be able to do anything original. That Origami King is them trying their hardest to make a proper Paper Mario experience, but not being able to truly make the experience they wanted to, once upon a time.
Mario87456 how so?
@@Mario87456 don't blame the messenger.
I think you got it wrong here. This IS the game they want to make. They want to casualize the gameplay. They want to keep the story simple. They want to keep changing the core appeal in favor of gimmicks. And they want to ignore all the fans that tell them that's not what we want.
take a look at color splash's concept art, so many character designs start out unique then get more bland with each revision. I believe they still wanna do what they used to
In the game king olu says he did he evilness because there too many toads
They jab at us.
Paper Mario dev team: We have to do something new every time
Me: There are 4 New Super Mario Bros games that are basically the same but with minor differences
@Caio Coelho And yet this interview features Kensuke Tanabe, an employee of Nintendo, not Intelligent Systems.
Caio Coelho And yet Tanabe openly claims his design philosophy comes from Miyamoto
Nic Anastasi I’d replay NSMB DS and Wii anyday, along with NSLU. I don’t really care for 2 and U that much. 2 was just a clone of DS on the 3DS and U was pretty much a reskin of Wii with little touch ups.
Caio Coelho but Nintendo has a lot of influence on them just look at prime 4. Originally it was developed by bandai but Nintendo did not like the game so they cancelled it and gave it to retro to develop
@@joshuafarmer3135 Agreed, NSMB DS and Wii are really fun, 2 has the 1 million coin gimmick and U didn't really add anything new
"We can't exactly do the same thing that's been done before"
Press F for F-zero...
Especially when you consider that Miyamoto thinks that F-Zero _needs_ a gimmicky controller.
F
F
Mega F from me. So much potential for F-Zero, but Nintendo rather just put F-Zero elements in Mario Kart and only have just Mario Kart for their main racing series. No F-Zero, no Diddy Kong Racing. Only Mario Kart.
@@KillerSmile559 No Kirby Air Ride, either...
_Man,_ City Trial is a _blast._
I really hope the character limitation gets removed in the future, limiting creativity can backfire horribly
The thing that interested me about the older paper Mario games is how existing and new characters/species are designed, giving them distinct looks while still being familiar to the series while adding diversity at the same time
A bob-omb may look like a admiral, but you still know it’s a bob-omb
An enemy koopa may look like a thug, but you still know it’s a koopa
And they all had some design alterations that made them unique (goombas with fangs, koopa with sunglasses)
It's pretty darn incredible how fast they turned one of my all time favorite series into something I won't bother buying. I honestly see Nintendo cancelling Paper Mario before they'd ever go back to their roots
really hope things go well in the future, I want the newer fans of the series to experience classic paper mario at least once in their lifetimes
The whole casual pandering concept is weird in this case. Paper Mario was a very casual friendly as it was. There was no need to water it down at all.
That's the direction of AAA games. Water down to achieve the lowest common denominator no matter what. Same with films.
I always thought Paper Mario was making RPGs more casual to begin with. Japan seems bent on killing off the genre of JRPGs though saying they want to do something new.
@@robertharris6092 There are plenty of good modern movies and games. Stop being such a pessimist.
@@crfstewarje4597 there are. But very few are from AAA studios.
I am enjoying Origami King for the most part, but it's a game that seems to have been built for core puzzle-game players instead of even casual RPG players. There's no such thing as somebody who's just "casual" or "core" for every possible game type. If you want to be friendly to casual players, you go for an easy mode or no time limits or something, you don't make people grind resources to make future battles easier.
I feel like that rule was put in place specifically to stifle the growth of the series. the fact that they don't want that type of World building and creativity outside of the main series Feels almost like they see these side games as competition and are intentionally holding them back to make themselves look better and retain interest in their creations.
Honestly this whole thing feels kind of like a tactic a jealous person with power would use.
DKC, Paper Mario, Mario & Luigi, Miyamoto has been systematically seeking out anyone who makes his original creations better throughout the entirety of his career, and crushing them.
@@pedrogomezid honestly Miyamoto sounds like the worst thing for the growth of the Mario franchise as a whole at this point. It's like no one is allowed to move forward unless he is ahead of them at all times. That way he can suck up all the praise for expanding the universe. Or at least that's the vibe I'm feeling from all this
Makes me interested to know his feelings about Smash Bros. If this is true
@@Mario87456 I wouldn't go that far but he definitely needs grow up and give Developers more creative freedom with the franchise
Cutting off the nose to spite the face.
@@megametexe5129 He did at least give the younger developers of Mario Odyssey lots of creative freedom, now if only the spinoffs could get that...
This might seem sad or disturbing to some, but it's oddly relieving to me.
It's confirmation of what I already knew, that 64 and TTYD era Paper Mario games are never coming back. I can stop holding onto the vague hope that "maybe this one will be different".
Y’all need to play Bug Fables!
why not make a sequel to super the 2d 3d mechanics can be revolutionary if they done it right
Finally able to let the dream go..
Boy do i have news for you
well our prayers have been answered as ttyd is finally being remade for the switch
I could bet you the "no original characters thing" is something from Nintendo´s marketing and copyright department, They own the trademark for "goomba" but they don´t own the trademark for "goomby" your friendly goomba that has a helmet, that's more work for them. so its easier to tell all the outside companies that do things with the Mario brand "Don´t create new stuff" let me remind you that Squarenix everything created for Super Mario RPG, even stuff like Boshi or Smilax that are to close to the original Nintendo Characters, Nintendo probably doesn´t want more of that.
But it's the same thing for Bobby and they still made him an original character. Bobby is my favorite.
Edit: I am sad
@@samrussell447 Bobby still looks like a bob-omb, so they don´t need to trademark him apart.
@@Flintofmother oh ok then
That’s... not how that works
Get a life.
"It is no longer possible to modify Mario characters"
Ok then, why not have something like Super paper Mario. That game had %99.99 of the characters be brand new designs. Why can't we have stuff like that anymore? They fit your guidelines. I don't understand
I really cannot understand that anymore, personally I think that Super Paper Mario had the best story with deep character development in it, not only that but if I'm not mistaken there is literally *one* toad who appears in the whole game and that's it, there rest are completely new and original characters (Except Merlon and Bowser's goons and the other obvious characters.) Sure, most of the designs were a bit basic but they all had some great personality within them, even the pixels showed personality when you first find them. Take Dimentio for example, now THAT is how you create a good plot twist antagonist, you give him a twisted mad and ironic personality, you make him look like a goon of the main antagonist and before you know it, he's the main villan who turned out to be even more powerfull anyone thought he could be. I just really don't understand how we went to so many good original characters in worlds filled with orignality to just a shit-load of toads and just ONE new original character who doesn't even have a creative name. I'm telling you these people are getting too family friendly.
Yeah it's official, I have no hope for Paper Mario anymore. Thank you TTYD and SPM for being such a big factor in my childhood and defining me as a person. Goodbye Paper Mario, you have and forever will be missed
And before anyone screeches at me in the comments, no I haven't played Origami King, maybe I will but I don't think I'll have £40 to 50$ worth of fun to warrant a purchase
I feel the same way you do.
It really sucks that this happened, and I 100% agree its not worth 50$
cute buge rpg is $25 on switch :3
@@baconlabs yes I know but the fact that we can't even rely on Nintendo to do their fucking job right with a series makes me disappointed and angry
@@baconlabs ty for the suggestion tho, I'm defo gonna try it
What Nintendo Says:
“No, We can’t make a cool story, or create new and lovable characters because it would make things too complicated in the Mario universe.”
What Nintendo Means:
“Yes. We can make an interesting story, and create characters that people will love and remember... BUUUT... that doesn’t mean we SHOULD.”
"No longer possible" sounded like a copout at first. As if they had already exhausted all the possibilities. But the more I thought about it, the more I agree with you that it could've been Miyamoto's doing. The way Tanabe worded it could've just been a respectful way of saying they're not allowed to add new characters.
Miyamoto once said the reason we can't get a new F-Zero is because they can't come up with a new gimmick or a way to utilize the latest console for it. But GX wasn't a gimmick unless you consider the arcade tie in connectivity. That arcade thing didn't last though, but the game stuck around and it was the final console release. There's so much to do and see and it's challenging enough for hardcore players. It has customization for your vehicles too. If you want innovation, just keep all of that and toss in online versus modes. But that isn't how Miyamoto rolls. Funny since GX was made by Sega and Nagoshi.
I'm gonna be even more cynical and say that this wasn't even a game developer making that decision. I think it was just some guy in a suit who figured out via charts and graphs that homogenised characters leads to more brand recognition, which then leads to more sales.
This probably wasn't even directed at Paper Mario specifically, rather, it was just a generalised order that applied to all Mario spin-offs, with no special consideration for any of their needs.
D Reye you might be right.
> The way Tanabe worded it could've just been a respectful way of saying they're not allowed to add new characters.
I'm pretty sure this has come up before too, and has been this way for a while - possibly as early as Super Paper Mario. If they want to create a new character it has to basically be something brand new (all the Origami characters for instance). It's not the only company that does this either when it comes to licensing their IPs out to third parties - I remember a whole thing with Gumi getting in deep trouble with Square Enix for creating a named Tonberry player character for FF Brave Exvius, because their permissions to use existing explicilty-Square-material were very strict.
Like, that sucks, don't get me wrong. But - in spite of how people in these comments seem to want to treat a game I suspect they've never played - they've done a way better job working under those limitations than I expected, and may have even benefitted from it in some cases that go into spoiler territory for this game.
@@rainehappy7097 look at the people behind fire emblem/advance wars excuse or why they think they cant make a new advance wars game...
Here’s my theory: it’s an ownership dispute. If Intelligent Systems makes original characters based on existing Mario-series species, who owns the rights to those characters?
Given the sheer number of unique NPCs in a game such as TTYD, if IS owned the rights to the original characters they made, theoretically they could make a Mario-universe game populated with those characters they had already created, without Nintendo’s consent. A spin-off game about Goombella or Koops, populated entirely by pre-existing NPCs from TTYD. It’s kind of like when the developers of DOOM openly stated that the DOOM movie, despite being the same IP, had nothing to do with them and they did not consent to the creation of the movie.
The one thing Nintendo hates more than anything is fan games. People making games using their IPs without their consent. My belief is that having IS use only character designs Nintendo owns, Nintendo is basically trying to prevent Intelligent Systems from legally making a Mario fangame.
Please note that I have absolutely no evidence to back this theory.
Nintendo owns the characters. Plenty of Paper Mario characters have appeared in other games like the Star Spirits in Mario Party and Goomba King in Super Mario 64 DS. This is just Miyamoto doing another Miyamoto.
It all basically means that we, the consumers, get worse products as a result, so I wouldn't be surprised x)
But when you create something under someone else's IP, doesn't the person who owns the IP automatically own the new characters and places? Like, wouldn't Nintendo automatically own everything in TTYD? Actually, isn't Intelligent systems OWNED by Nintendo?
Reading the first paragraph makes me think instantly: Geno.
BUT THATS JUST A THEORY A GAME THEORY
DONT SUE ME
God, to hear they simplified the stories due to the results of those Club Nintendo surveys is nonsense. I really don't think those surveys are a good barometer to figure out what people liked about the game because I'm certain the majority of people filling out those surveys were just doing the bare minimum to get their Club Nintendo coins.
Also of note that it was a Japanese-only sample and the questions polled were: What parts did you like the most?
@@genogamma13 Which is fucked up in so many ways. It's a global game, most people don't have Nintendo accounts, valuing gameplay over story doesn't mean you don't want story, they had given direct incentive with coins which promotes people spamming the quiz as fast as possible and they had no protections.
For a company that's known for their quality control this has to be one of the least quality decision making processes I've ever seen.
@@EvilShadow7777 This stupid decision/excuse reminds me of why Smash "shouldn't have cutscenes". Sakurai said that there isn't a story mode like Subspace because the cutscenes were uploaded. Of course they were uploaded, what doesn't get uploaded to the internet? This is also such a stupid reason to not do it.
7:45 ...
....
Paper Mario has traditionally been *an RPG series* . How do you move the game away from its RPG roots and then tell people not to think of it as an RPG game?
We already have a Mario adventure series, *it's the Mario series* . If you're going to have a spin-off series, *leave the RPG alone* .
This interview was EA levels of tone deafness and infuriation.
I would say more Blizzard than EA
Gaming is dead
“This is an adventure game, after all. So it wouldn’t be right if the battles didn’t have some kind of puzzle solving element!”
Correct me if I’m wrong, but from my experience, adventure game battles tend to be “don’t get hit by thing, hit thing until it dies”
That's what the paper maché battles turned out to be, yes.
They should use that battle system for the whole game instead of the turn base ring puzzle.
Adventure games should either not have a combat system at all, or it should be based entirely around insults.
As long as Nintendo keeps making money from these games despite feedback, they’ll keep making them. I understand that some people want to enjoy these games regardless of the history, but I learned my lesson from Sticker Star and won’t be buying another Paper Mario unless it has either a “customization (badge) system” or “unique cast of characters”. I’m not picky, but those were the things that made the Paper Mario world fun and memorable
i wish that were true but if it was they wouldve went back to the old style after color splash. That game bombed harder then most people can wrap their head around and yet origami king still happened for some reason
SpaceToastGames
Tbh, Wiiu in general was a bomb for Nintendo and that game came late in its life span.
As an ex-Pokemon fan (at least until The Pokemon Company or GameFreak or whoever was responsible for how bad Sword and Shield was), this hits on an entirely relatable level.
@@tjlnintendo i know but it bombed even by wiiu standards. take chibi robo for example. game flopped hard also since it was released on a dying console that didnt do too well in the first place very similar to color splash. but even without the advantage of having mario in the title chibi robo managed to more than double color splash's sales. hell chibi robo sold better in north america than color splash did worldwide. this goes back to what i said about people not being able to truly wrap their hand around how poorly color splash did
SpaceToastGames
Good god is that true? That’s actually hilarious. New chibi robo game pls Nintendo
I'm starting to believe that TTYD was just an accidental success that happened by complete chance..
There's too much passion in that game to be a mistake. Maybe it was a final game but they had to make more when the Wii came out and they were like, "I'm not doing THAT again!"
The Wii is what changed just about everything. The watering down for mass accessibility to all people (at the cost of alienating Nintendo's actual built-up market- the fans) meant casualising all their games to the point that all innovation was utterly stifled, unless it was the tech and they decided fresh, unusual ideas either weren't worth it or didn't fit anymore. It's anybody's guess, but the Gamecube was only so much a cult hit rather than a financial success (Nintendo's fault regarding the anti-3rd party hardware and proprietary design- NOT the games), you're left to assume the design philosophy left behind that built Nintendo into what they were for 20 years is dead and buried forever. Bear in mind, that was 15 years ago now, already.
@@Hysteria98 Generally I think it's a mistake to try and appeal to the fickle tastes of the mass market, but Nintendo does seem to have a knack for tapping into it. First the Wii, then the Switch. Every time they try to go more "hardcore" like the Gamecube and Wii U they don't sell nearly as much. The Gamecube is one of my favorite consoles, and the Wii U is a sleeper juggernaut with the Virtual Console and access to a good amount of Nintendo classics thanks to remakes/remasters and Wii backwards compatibility. I really wish that they had been successes because we would be seeing a very different Nintendo these days. The Switch is primed for a virtual console, but Nintendo doesn't seem interested in offering one anymore. Can you imagine how awesome it would be to have all the classics from every era (NES, Gameboy, SNES, GBA, N64, DS, Gamecube, 3DS, Wii, Wii U) on one console that can be both a handheld and a home console? I'm so, so upset that it isn't a thing. If any game company has a vast library of classic games to put on their system, it's Nintendo. Sony is not doing well with backwards compatibility with PS1 and PS2 games (or PS3 for that matter), yet their PS4 sales rival the PS2. So maybe BC and virtual console aren't important to other people. They're important to me, but I guess I was always going to buy the new consoles anyway.
The biggest shame, in my opinion, is that Nintendo could very well compete with Sony and see PS4 numbers of sales if they would just create a powerful enough console to support 3rd party games. The Switch is barely powerful enough to support PS4/Xbox One ports, so going into the next generation, I don't think we will see too many ports of new games to the Switch. It's about time for a Switch 2 or a Switch Pro or whatever Nintendo decides to do. I really think they should stick with this whole handheld/console hybrid. I can't really see them going back to a dedicated console and dedicated handheld again.
@@ChaseWSanders The Wii U was a failure because they just didn't fucking tell anybody about it. I'm a Nintendo fan, and that thing just sprung up out of nowhere like an unwanted pregnancy.
@@Hysteria98 But this only happened to the Mario franchise, none of the others, and even that was reversed with Odyssey.
Also Alpha Dream was allowed to create new characters in Mario and Luigi: Bowser's Inside Story and Dream Team. None of this makes sense.
I think it's some personal crap that Miyamoto himself didn't like the story of Super Paper Mario so in rage he banned IS specifically from adding anything to the Mario universe.
Also that 1% poll is total BS, I literally don't believe it. It was probably something like a free text area where people were asked to say what they liked about the game and 99% of responders left it empty, therefore they concluded "they didn't like the story".