In the vanilla SMTV, Tao is kind of a doormat. However, with the addition of Yoko, we really get to see the strong side of her. Their dynamic is so good
Mastema is definitely an agent of the Great Will. Remember that he encourages Tsukibino to go to the throne fully knowing you could succeed the throne as a Nahobino, which Tsukiyomi directly mentions being confused by as Bethel shouldn't be okay with that. His side quest also heavily implies it. Other than that, another possible reason he can control Tiamat could be related to his real life lore as an angel that's allowed to control demons by God in order to test humanity. What he's doing is definitely less testing you and making sure you don't destroy the throne though. Also the new endings don't really have anything to do with the Mandala system. You always free the world from the Mandala system by killing Lucifer and consuming his knowledge. How that works I don't think anyone really gets but the point is that the Qadistu/Samael/Yoko/Snake Gods are trying to free the world of the curse of Marduk. If you've done Samael's side quest, he explains that the dragonslayer who killed Tiamat (Marduk) cursed the throne to only allow descendants of the bull god to ascend the throne. This ties back to the games themes, showcasing the bull gods as the oppressors and the snake gods as the opressed who want to take revenge (essentially a larger scale version of all the Sahoro stuff).
fits that Lucifer is the final boss in both routes, as ending him and consuming his knowledge allows to do away or keep the Mandala system. Nahobino wouldnt be able to use it if Lucifer was still around.
The biggest positive aspect of VV for me was also looking forward to the next mainline entry because what VV does is to try and address as many of the issues of the original game as possible and it shows it understands why people had those issues, but it doesn't do it perfectly. It does devise a clear solution for almost all of them however.
I'll say this as someone who didn't look at any of the information of this game, The transformation scene was genuinely one of many favorite moments in the franchise.
@@Holy_Crusader not exactly the mandala system just made sure it happend by supporting a new nahobino but without the system it is not garentied it will happen but the throne can still be taken away its juts that it won't be supported they will have to do it with their own strength.
Canon of Vengeance gave us some amazing law and chaos reps, I absolutely love both Tao and Yoko and their dynamic Their ideals feel extreme but not to the extent where you feel like choosing their route isn't a realistic option
@@ironrex6979Can you blame them for not noticing though? Vanilla tao has as much personality as a plank then she dies and hours later you see her again as a goddess, different to vengance when she actually shows a little bit more personality and gets revived as a human the first time
@@aregularlink5470 yes, I do blame them since a lot of the negative arguments for SMTV’s story or characters aren’t valid because they were addressed. That’s why I’m happy Atlus left Canon of Creation in and in order to truly appreciate Vengeance you need to play through Canon of Creation. SMTV as a whole is a masterpiece and a redemption from the mess with SMTIV (specially Apocalypse 🤮).
Isn't it literally mentioned multiple times that Mastema can control demons? The only surprising thing should be that this even extends to Tiamat. Maybe something about the shecina played a role but that's beyond me
As a person that hasn’t played the game but followed it, I feel as though the threat of Tiamat wasn’t fully explored enough as it was implied throughout the early part of the game. Cuz they build up the Qadistu so much as this big player almost standing toe to toe with Bethel and Tiamat’s summon causes massive damage that it would’ve been great to say that all the gods of Bethel were going to the throne to haphazardly try to rectify the mistake by going to the nuclear option of just getting the throne. At the very least, make it so that Tiamat and the Qadistu’s threat is more acknowledged by the big players of Bethel in the late game.
I was very lucky to go into this blind. Hell I refused to see trailers so I didn’t know about the new Nahobino form until the moment happened. Was a cool surprise for me since I wasn’t expecting it.
Don't forget that Mastema has control over demons in biblical canon. I agree that there should have been more scenes explaining what Mastema's exact powers are but keep in mind that the guy has always been fond of a "little trolling" in the stories he presumably appears in.
Explains why they got Doug Erholtz.... Unless his hair is a pillar, he ends up in a wheelchair, or he's chasing Tony Oliver... Trusting him is not wise
Not biblical. It’s certain ancient Hebrew sects. Book of jubilee. That isn’t part of the Christian canon. I also disagree his powers are simple to understand. SMTV is show don’t tell. I’m thankful of that.
I dunno i really liked the True Neutral ending of Vanilla V, where you do free the world from the mandala effect just as Lucifer wanted, but as a Nahobino you're now sorta the guardian for it to STAY that way, since the influence of both the divine and demonic will always try to creep back every possible moment.
neutral CoV ending: sigma male ending ignore both goddesses and go back to the beginning of the game from lvl 1 because the grind never stops and neither do you
About your alignment choice at the end... while is true that the choices you do during the game decides that fate, if you SOMEHOW manage to stay neutral by the time goddess Yoko appears, then AND ONLY THEN you can make your ending choice between Vengeance Law or Vengeance Chaos.
The thing with the vengeance route for me is how well they did Tao and Yoko as the alignment reps and what they ultimately wanted by the end, an aspect SMT4 imo really Fumbled and it ultimately harmed its characters/alignment reps at and is one of if not the most important thing to get right in a SMT story. I liked how their both immature views grew into something more nuanced and balanced by the end of the story. There was actual balance between the endings something that was missing in SMT for almost 2 decades
Currenrly trying to get all the endings again. I did Vengeance Law, to creation Normal Neutral, and currently on Creation Law. I have to say, I cannot wait to go back to Canon of Vengeance for the Chaos route.
Very, very well done and extremely accurate analysis. I also think the games story is slightly better but messy, but not better enough to be considered anything of note. The characters aside from dazai did receive notable improvements which I think make the game slightly overall better. But storywise is nowhere near smt 4 or anything in persona imo.
I just want to add a few things, because it seems to be a little bit of confusion as to whether the current universe is free from the mandala system, the short answer is yes, for the long answer, in every single smt game, the world is rid of the mandala system, always, the great will has an avatar in each an every universe, yhvh is usually placed in every universe to test the will of humanity for the great will, at least most of the time, sometimes the test comes from other parties or whoever holds more the law side of things in their respective world, we know the great will is the entity that controls every universe in the smt, including the spin offs like persona, devil digital saga and others, so why am I saying this? because in another universe, there's a guy that actually tells you something important, that once yhvh ceases to exist in a universe, it would not come back, if I recall correctly that guy is stephen, who is just a normal human, but far more powerful than anyone in the current known smt multiverse, because he transcended, stephen appears in smt1 and smt2 as the creator of the devil summoner program, as well as in smt4 and apocalypse, in apocalypse dlc we are told that the messiahs have the potential to eventually become more than the great will, as a rule of thumb, there can only exist 1 messiah at a time, with the exception of smt4, where there's actually 2 of them, even the demi fiend is consider a messiah, but given that he became the true lord of chaos, this gave rise to the events of smt5 (the conception that happens in smt3 nocturne is the cataclysm that happen in tokyo for smt5, or at least this is my current theory, so take it with a grain of salt, there's also a dialogue of lucifer in the demon haunt saying that he gave rise to a dark and ligh messiah, meaning the demi fiend and the nahobino) stephen tells you that the messiahs get rid of the mandala system on their respective universes by taking down yhvh or by rising above humanity to godhood, which is the usual setting of smt, this is further clarify in smtvv by none other than mastema himself, just as a reminder, angels can either have their loyalty pledge to yhvh or to the great will, we know this because metatron says something similar is other universes, that he represents the great will, going back to mastema, because of the defeat of yhvh and transcended lucifer being absord, kei amemura the nahobino successfully gets rid of the mandala system in that time line, which is what mastema tells you, that another version of the nahobino in another timeline has taken down the mandala system but not on the current once (because you hadnt beaten lucifer), then he uses all aspects of yhvh, to summon a primal being from another universe, satan, specifically, satan from smt4, he is just there to test you and see if you can go against the great will in the future. Now going into why mastema can control tiamat, that's explain to you early in the game on the whole vengeance route, where they tell you that he often control demons, they dont tell you why (though in religion he is consider to be an angel of punishment, who ask god to have demons as his subordinates) but it is reveal to you when he first summons satan from another universe, the reason as to why he control demons besides the religion background, is because he is part of the essence of yhvh, the malice to be exact, he then uses the essences of samael and lucifer from another timeline to summon satan, also another point to have in mind, if you really pay attention, the one to revive tao was no other than mastema, I say attention because it's the same voice, but you can say it's yhvh remaining fragments that stick to tao since she's the goddess of law, which ever one you like is valid if you ask me, since mastema is basically just a part of yhvh. My last point, yoko, as we know, yoko is the soul that you as kei amemura a messiah, chooses to either rescue or leave behind, the 2 voices in the the half of time imo could be either yhvh himself and the goddess of tokyo, since this are the 2 forces that usually collide in smt guiding or opposing the messiah, but that is just a theory of mine, what we know so far, is that yoko is a soul that can lead a world where not only the mandala system doesnt exist, but where the world exist before even yhvh was put there to test humanity, I think this is the single biggest lore drop on the series, because it could lead to a world completely detach of the great will multiverse, could, but we don't know, at atlus is probably cooking a kind of avengers infinity time game where you actually go against the great will, and I would lose my shit if that happens, because it sounds hype as fuck.
I think the confusion comes from the fact that the game doesn’t explain any of this themselves. All of it is “implied” and even then not close to implied enough to make it clear. In the original endings of the game, the last line of the post credits scene says “can the world truly be free of Mandalas system?” Implying that it’s bound to return. Mastema being able to control demons makes sense but then why does he do nothing at all in the law route of the game when Tiamat and Tahom are summoned ? The easy answer would be that he knew the protagonist would prevail but explanations need to be made for players to accept that. Either way, I hope your theory about setting up for a plot surrounding the great will is true so they can actually attempt to fix this and give us some clarity
@@bluemori2822 I agree that's an issue, the game should make an effort to deliver all this information in a cohesive way, although it is also the fault of the player for not paying attention, they did tell you mastema can control demons, mastema does tell you he no longer serves the god of that universe, he even tell you the player that he is a part of yhvh, more specifically his malice, while it would make the game better if those things where given more exposition, I being playing rpgs for a long time, so im not as spoil as most modern fans, I think part of the fun of videogames and series with extent lore is making theories, finding out little details, bits of information that enrich the experience to you afterwards, making you appreciate the work that was put on, I feel they made an excellent job at building up the basis of what could come for the future of the franchise.
The mandala system is the cycle of death and rebirth decreed by existence itself, also known as the great will, in order to keep time flowing as stated in nocturne. Smt 5 is the only entry that is free of that cycle
Maybe it's cuz I've always had mixed feelings on SMT's alignment system,but in an actual character driven and hopeful game these characters would be so much more well-written. Dazai and Yoko are probably the best examples of that. As someone who first experienced smt 5 through the canon of vengeance,Dazai's sudden shift to being an edgelord and killing Atsuta threw me off so much,that I couldn't take that scene seriously. It felt like the writing team just gave up on whatever development he got so far just to force a lawful character in the most contrived way imaginable. When it comes to Yoko,I do love her but not because of who she is as a character but what she COULD have been. During the first half of the game's story,while she is shown to have an incredibly pessimistic(I don't want to say edgy cuz while I do understand that her comment on cars is a bit out-there,objectively speaking,there's no denying that car accidents wouldn't be a thing if they didn't exist),it’s not a viewpoint she has because she's hateful but because she has difficulty believing that the world can have a better future and the people and systems that manage said world will keep repeating the same mistakes. But throughout the course of the story we see how she grows to care about Tao and the MC,leading to my favorite scene in the whole game,where Yoko decides to fight against the qadistu and protect both Tao and the MC because as she puts it:"they helped me have a little faith in the future". She could have had a great character arc of someone who has drowned themselves in pessimism and negativity,but through the companionship of both Tao and the MC she becomes someone who can believe in the future,that the world can be better if we fight for it,but again,we need to throw all that out of the window because"alignments". Granted Yoko being Chaos makes more sense with her story compared to Dazai,but seeing her regress like that at the end even with everything she learned thanks to Tao and the MC in the first half really feels disappointing. At least those are my feelings on this matter.
As someone who is replaying the COC aogami says this one line when we meet Dazai at the school during the demon attack "the demon summing program takes a toll on the human soul. The more one interacts with demons, the closer one grows to being like the demons themselves. When a humans nature becomes closer to that of demons, they find themselves more concerned with the affairs of the ethereal realm than those of the earthly realm." So I think it was this combined with staying with abdiel and mastema that made him into a murder as also having yellow eyes showing the transformation so as someone who already didn't enjoy dazai this fixed it for me however I also would understand if they wanted it more fleshed out.
@@geraldthegoose1685 I get that,but I wish there was a bit more built-up. Like have scenes where little by little Dazai starts losing his humanity instead of just having his character make a complete 180. It feels like whiplash more than anything
The alligment system is the worst thing in the series even though it is what i wish they did right the most, in most games the alligment system is very poorly done and there is always an obviously better ending, this system could make the roleplay aspect of the game better and add more replay value and of course making people discuss which ending is the best based on their own views in real life, however most of the time these endings boil down to: > There is an obviously better ending > There is an ending that is objectively worse or unsatisfactory OG SMT V actually had a good lineup of endings but with a bad story and presentation for them Law, Chaos and True Neutral were all valid in my opinion and had their advantages and flaws but what backed up them was so bad that all of them felt unsatisfactory Vengeance Law is overwhelmingly better than Vengeance Chaos and the only reason for someone to choose Chaos over Law is if they are very paranoic with the possibility of the Marduk thing repeating itself since Nahobino uses the throne or if you simp Yoko. In the rest of the games except for Strange Journey Redux, all of them boil down to Neutral = Good and the rest is very extreme, in Nocturne TDE is objectively better because it makes up a better story, adds more gameplay and has the most epic parts of the game, SMT 2 people say that the endings are all good but from what i saw all of them boil down to all the factions killing YHVH at the end. In fact the SMT games with the best alligments are the spin offs like Devil Survivor or even Persona 5 Royal(i know people will ask wtf i'm going about, but i see choosing to stay on Maruki's world or rejecting it as an alligment choice and probably one of the best moral choices i've ever seen in a game too).
@@renren47618 This. I couldn't agree more with all you said here! Not only is the alignment system biased since as you said,there's always a better ending,but even then most of the endings boil down to"genocide is the end all be that fixes everything". I get that the point of mainline SMT is built around you becoming a God to recreate the world in your own image,but it's hard for me to find that kind of storytelling engaging when,not only is genocide(either for humans or demons depending on your allegiance)treated as something cool and badass,as something that should be glorofied,but either ending you get in these games have you side with people who either manipulate you(lucifer from smt3)or are straight up psychotic(almost every law or chaos aligned character in the series). Funnily enough the only smt games whose stories I do enjoy are smt devil survivor 1(preferably the manga adaptation since the ending and the story choices in that adaptation are what made me love it in the first place)and the digital devil saga duology and it's all because of how character driven and hopeful they are on their own rights,but most importantly,in the case of SMT devil survivor,the Yuzu route and the Naoya kill all humans route,the game pulls no punches on making you feel like garbage for going through either route as it should. Escaping from your problems and turning into a mass-murdering psychopath aren't options that the game glorofies and I couldn't be happier about that.
Ngl I don't think I've ever seen a take I've agreed with harder than this, I find it so bloody hard to be engaged in these stories because of how the alignment system forces these characters to act with some extreme fuckin ideals that are so over the top it feels genuinely impossible to feel engaged or take it seriously, like maybe it's the point but it makes the characters feel so much less humanised with these larger than life grand ideas of recreating the world to the point that it feels near impossible as a player to actually agree with these characters when it all feels so forced and tied down because of the alignment system. Genuinely the only time I felt like a certain ending made sense from the perspective of the main character was the True Demon ending in SMT3, because as the Demi-Fiend I've been betrayed, used and manipulated by everyone in this game except for the demons who despite some of them being fuckin assholes, were the only ones who actually consistently help you through the game so why wouldn't I want to destroy the world, leave it behind and go to new worlds with the only guys who actually fuckin respected me?? XD Least that's my interpretation of it lmao
One of the very few things that left me quite displeased was forcing the player back into their Aogami form hours after getting used to and attached to Tsukuyomi, there were countless ways in which it could've been handled better, you could have your cake and eat it, they could still have Tsukuyomi sacrifice himself and bring back Aogami without getting rid of the new form entirely, they could have taken advantage of the narrative climax to deliver the third and final nahobino form that mixes elements from both Aogami and Tsukuyomi and it would've been cool as fuck, just imagine the Nahobino with his signature long hair but silver, they really dropped the ball...it really makes no sense to put so much effort into a new protagonist design and let your player use it for half of their playthrough only to take it away in the final 2 hours of gameplay Another thing I wasn't a fan of was Mastema being the second final boss of the Chaos route, the fight itself was fine and Mastema was indeed a pretty entertaining villain as always but seeing how the Law route got a completely new demon (Tehom) as their second final boss makes Mastema look boring in comparison, if they didn't want to write an entirely new angel or law antagonist just for a boss battle they could at least give Mastema a new form and combat phase to spice things up but they didn't I also felt disappointed that Nuwa's nahobino boss and Abdiel's second boss forms are absent from the canon of vengeance, I do like a lot the new characterization they gave to Yakumo and Nuwa making them begrudging allies of the protagonist, their decisive antagonistic role in the CoC felt quite forced as there was no real reason why you should have been forced to kill them, still, I'm sad they didn't find a way to repurpose Nuwa's nahobino boss battle in the Canon of Vengeance, same goes for Abdiel's Now this is an extremely petty nitpick but it also bothered me how they didn't change Ichiro's attire? He keeps dressing as a high schooler even after he becomes a demon-killing brainwashed psychopath? He has a good design but I feel like they could've come up with an attire upgrade to better reflect his inner change and cement his role as a pawn of the Law faction besides the high schooler uniform All those things aside, it's one of the best JRPGs I have ever played and a strong contender for one of the best turn-based RPGs of the past decade alongside Persona 5 Royal, Like A Dragon 7 and Dragon Quest XI
I feel like CoV succeeded in a area where SMT4 kinda failed imo and that is the overall handling of the alignment reps, what they ultimately wanted and creating actual balance between their ideal
Yeah definitely agree on the Tsukuyomi stuff I actually grew to like him more than Aogami for the short time we had him. He was a lot more complex as a character and had a very interesting background. They did him really dirty
Story was far from perfect, but leagues better than the OG, so I'll take it. And unlike a lot of people, I really liked Yoko and all her edgy dialogue, lol
@@azurechief3151 I feel those claims lack a lot of substantion, but sure, I guess. It just kinda sounds like you have a really strong hate boner for her
The moment Yoko went "Cars may be convenient but they have killed millions" I almost felled to the ground due to how BASED and red pilled her rant was. Her inmaculate chaos tism made me love her in all the wrong ways and I do agree her inclusion to the game was all that was missing originally.
Well. That wasn't all that was needed to fill in originally....The characters are a lot more fleshed out in this version than before. In the original, they were kind of just....there. I currently just got to the third map. Still saving my judgements since what the original mainly lacked for me was dungeons.
Played them in reverse order and much preferred Creation story. In Vengeance, I understood none of the story context, the characters or their sudden personality changes, who exactly the factions were or what they were trying to do, or why the people who make Persona could possibly make writing as stupid as almost all of the NPCs dialogue between these high school students. Meanwhile, in Creation, all of the above things were quite clear, and all of that silly high school kid dialogue was absent. Makes me wonder how much one’s view of these two versions of the game could be affected the order you played them in? I mean, you could hand wave or not even notice a lot of this stuff if you already knew the background story. Also, the philosophy behind the story made more sense in COC. There were 3 main factions that ended up vying for the throne, and they all had reasonable coherent explanations for why their view deserved to win. In COV, you get Yoko, who seems to confusedly mix order, hierarchy, unfairness, injustice, and human suffering into one thing. In reality, those concepts aren’t linked. Hierarchy exists in chaos, usually in the form of dominance of the stronger and more vicious, order can be hierarchical or egalitarian, and human happiness and suffering equal out in any system. All of these concepts are distinct from one another. I actually liked Yoko and sided with her early on, but when I saw she had no coherent arguments, was hoping to hear Tao’s side of things, only to, in the end, being given no choice. Ultimately, I enjoyed the gameplay and atmosphere of both games, just commenting here on story from the point of view of a total newcomer to the series.
lol, didnt know it was sum total of game choices that give you your rep. i reloaded a save and picked the other choices in the final convo and got the other ending... mustve been right on the edge
Also SMTV > smtiv and it is a genius return to form. It’s not poorly placed. Smtiv was poorly paced and full of pointless exposition. A lot of what you are saying was covered in SMTV. Mark my words SMTV will be appreciated in the future it is show don’t tell. Also Tao is the best character in vengeance.
With Vengeance being my first time personally playing an SMT game (after having seen someone play the original game already), I can respect a lot of the criticisms brought up during this video. I’m aware that Law endings in the series historically have a very bad reputation, so between this and having already seen a playthrough of the New Chaos end I opted to aim for New Law to see how things played out. I do find it a little odd how despite Yoko voicing her uncertainties regarding the plans of the Qadistu after traveling with the MC and Tao in Shinjuku, learning that you are both alive again in the final meeting at the Throne does not prompt any further reconsideration on her part and she fully commits to attempting a hard reset on the entire timeline. If you couldn’t already tell from that, personally I would be a proponent of New Law over New Chaos as the latter effectively feels like a betrayal of almost everyone you’ve met over the course of the story in favor of a complete blank slate. We were opposing the Qadistu for the majority of this game, essentially agreeing to help carry out their end goal doesn’t sit right with me. But hey, I suppose that’s the point of this series in the end. Sometimes opposing viewpoints are just impossible to reconcile.
@@cyrushalberd624 I only wanted to clarify law endings have been received positively if it’s SMTI, SMTII, SMT SJ (original), and Devil Survivor 1. The internet does not paint reality.
Its so nice of Atlus giving us the Beta of SMTV so we can play the game while they finished. 😅 I mean, imagine giving a full incomplete game to the public and charging it twice. 😂
People need to understand that just because things were cut, that doesn’t make a game unfinished. You can criticize SMTV vanilla all you want but it’s crazy how people will say the game was “unfinished” because they felt like the story was underdeveloped.
I played canon of vengeance first, and sided with Yoko cause i liked her design, i am playing CoC now, and after i finish i will go back and side with Tao in CoV
Main point is that yoko served as a good foil, in that compared to base V, there were simply too little characters at play, now we have yoko to contrast tao as new contentions, being hope vs starting new, and qadistu and mastema being the main unknown that carries the narrative for awhile Its kind of frustrating to me its a sequel to 3, where theres little characters to interact to (cuz you know, no humans) compared to smt 1,2,4 where human are still living, allowing machinations like ICBM, Energy reactors and stuff having factors and allowing humans to share big spots
Dude that’s one of the reasons people love it. It continues SMTIII’s legacy. That one was the best although I honestly am loving vengeance a bit more I think?
Also smtiv was not that good. I am happy they are back to growing and evolving the series into something new. The Naobinoh is a phenomenal concept. Canon of creation really shows its weight well. Canon of creation handled the throne and Knowledge themes really well. However vengeance created the themes of the world characters and creation really well too. I find it ironic creation felt more vengeful and vengeance felt more creation focused.
21:54 For me I disliked this part. I was a fan of Tsukuyomi Nahobino and I thought reviving Aogami just because was a lame, fanservice-like excuse, a little too much for a SMT game. I understand the Bull god vs Snake thing but they could have done this better without making Tsukuyomi (a better develop character than Aogami) sooo dirty killing him and only being mentioned in a chair conversation. "Ah, yes, my brother died btw."
I didn’t mind the moment generally speaking but I was kinda pissed they did Koshimizu like that. He was a pretty damn good character this time around and he got booted from the plot unceremoniously
@@bluemori2822 Right! I also felt excited for a second but then the more I thought about it the more mad I got. I thought they were going to make Koshimizu shine and make Tsukuyomi Nahobino the "Nahobino of this canon" so the change destroyed me a little when I had already gotten used to him and bother to do his quests (the one you got his essences and the whole Miyazu blaming him) to know him more. He even abandoned his own path to follow the protagonist. I felt that once I got to the final map many cutscenes felt rushed. 🥲 I'm glad I'm not the only one anyways! I thought it was me for a second because I haven't seen people say it. Overall this game is a huge improve.
Kind of hated how they made Dazai the bad guy and killed Tsukuyomi tbh. Wished the story went down different paths at times. Gameplay improved though and we got some more demons which is a plus. Good thing I didn't spend too much money on this version of the game tbh.
Which you like better: Law with everyone have a redo on their life with no demon interveren. OR chaos with the possible of the world that human and demon share world together.
@@azurechief3151Agreed. CoV Chaos ending is basically killing everyone except you and Yoko, which I don't agree with at all even if it's for the "greater good." If you want a "humans and daemons live in harmony" ending just go with Apocolypse's Bonds or SJR's new chaos, not CoV Chaos.
@@KrimsonKattYT the problem is those two endings you mentioned do not reflect SMT Chaos alignment philosophically. That was a major critique towards the new Chaos ending in DSJ. It’s more a neutral ending than chaos, a cop out. While Apocalypse bond ending is neutral as well… badly written but neutral. CoV Chaos ending is beautifully written and fits its alignment, however I prefer the law ending in CoV more since I like Tao and agree with SMTV’s law side’s philosophy for the most part.
taito is basically just a straight up copy from coc like at the very least they could have fixed the temple of eternity or added something interesting when it came to story i just feel like im playing the same game i was playing back in 2021 the first 50 hours where good but then when they moved into shakan it just took a nosedive and i dont know why hopefully we can get smt 5 revengeance to fix the it
No it doesn’t did you even play the game? Vengeance simply reinforces Creation and vice versa. Both are excellently written compared to the 3Ds games. Weaker than the Kaneko games but at least it is an improvement from their previous 3Ds entries.
@@azurechief3151 ok i worded that terribly so thats on me Yes i did play the original when it was released and i played vengeance. What i meant to say past my bad wording is that CoV feels more complete and coherent than CoC. Yes there are aspects in vengeance that assumes you're familiar with Creation but in terms of character development and concept realization, Vengeance is far better imo
most of the story was improved but i think taito was really done poorly this time, most of the changes just felt like they were there just for the sake of changing something and there wasnt enough buildup to the area
I love how they fixed so many player complaints. Like how the alignment in canon didn't matter bc you can just choose at the end. Meanwhile in vengeance your choices matter and you're locked into order or chaos
I didnt expect to hear “young man if you wish to live, take my hand” again. Atlus got me good.
In the vanilla SMTV, Tao is kind of a doormat. However, with the addition of Yoko, we really get to see the strong side of her. Their dynamic is so good
Fr
Mastema is definitely an agent of the Great Will. Remember that he encourages Tsukibino to go to the throne fully knowing you could succeed the throne as a Nahobino, which Tsukiyomi directly mentions being confused by as Bethel shouldn't be okay with that. His side quest also heavily implies it. Other than that, another possible reason he can control Tiamat could be related to his real life lore as an angel that's allowed to control demons by God in order to test humanity. What he's doing is definitely less testing you and making sure you don't destroy the throne though.
Also the new endings don't really have anything to do with the Mandala system. You always free the world from the Mandala system by killing Lucifer and consuming his knowledge. How that works I don't think anyone really gets but the point is that the Qadistu/Samael/Yoko/Snake Gods are trying to free the world of the curse of Marduk. If you've done Samael's side quest, he explains that the dragonslayer who killed Tiamat (Marduk) cursed the throne to only allow descendants of the bull god to ascend the throne. This ties back to the games themes, showcasing the bull gods as the oppressors and the snake gods as the opressed who want to take revenge (essentially a larger scale version of all the Sahoro stuff).
fits that Lucifer is the final boss in both routes, as ending him and consuming his knowledge allows to do away or keep the Mandala system. Nahobino wouldnt be able to use it if Lucifer was still around.
The biggest positive aspect of VV for me was also looking forward to the next mainline entry because what VV does is to try and address as many of the issues of the original game as possible and it shows it understands why people had those issues, but it doesn't do it perfectly. It does devise a clear solution for almost all of them however.
Because what it does is expand the original. They did nothing wrong with canon of creation. They did the right thing.
I'll say this as someone who didn't look at any of the information of this game, The transformation scene was genuinely one of many favorite moments in the franchise.
If you fight Satan he confirms that the world you created are free from the system but not all of them.
Freeing the world from mandala bassically ensures nobody gets to inherit the throne from you? Or get to beat you?
@@Holy_Crusader not exactly the mandala system just made sure it happend by supporting a new nahobino but without the system it is not garentied it will happen but the throne can still be taken away its juts that it won't be supported they will have to do it with their own strength.
Canon of Vengeance gave us some amazing law and chaos reps, I absolutely love both Tao and Yoko and their dynamic
Their ideals feel extreme but not to the extent where you feel like choosing their route isn't a realistic option
When Tao dies for the first time, her personality changes slightly and Yoko asks MC if he noticed
That should have a change on ANYBODY, tbh
Same happened in the original the thing is they don’t point it out. It feels like people really never played SMTV’s canon of creation.
@@ironrex6979Can you blame them for not noticing though? Vanilla tao has as much personality as a plank then she dies and hours later you see her again as a goddess, different to vengance when she actually shows a little bit more personality and gets revived as a human the first time
@@aregularlink5470 yes, I do blame them since a lot of the negative arguments for SMTV’s story or characters aren’t valid because they were addressed. That’s why I’m happy Atlus left Canon of Creation in and in order to truly appreciate Vengeance you need to play through Canon of Creation. SMTV as a whole is a masterpiece and a redemption from the mess with SMTIV (specially Apocalypse 🤮).
@@ironrex6979 I do agree that both routes must be played to get the full experience and image of the characters
Ngl, seeing the protag try to use that light-sword was hilarious. Great video.💪
Been a fascinating playthrough so far, very interesting how the vibe of the game changed
Isn't it literally mentioned multiple times that Mastema can control demons? The only surprising thing should be that this even extends to Tiamat. Maybe something about the shecina played a role but that's beyond me
I actually called Aogami returning and imagined it being EXACTLY how it happened, made me so happy
As a person that hasn’t played the game but followed it, I feel as though the threat of Tiamat wasn’t fully explored enough as it was implied throughout the early part of the game.
Cuz they build up the Qadistu so much as this big player almost standing toe to toe with Bethel and Tiamat’s summon causes massive damage that it would’ve been great to say that all the gods of Bethel were going to the throne to haphazardly try to rectify the mistake by going to the nuclear option of just getting the throne.
At the very least, make it so that Tiamat and the Qadistu’s threat is more acknowledged by the big players of Bethel in the late game.
I was very lucky to go into this blind. Hell I refused to see trailers so I didn’t know about the new Nahobino form until the moment happened.
Was a cool surprise for me since I wasn’t expecting it.
Don't forget that Mastema has control over demons in biblical canon.
I agree that there should have been more scenes explaining what Mastema's exact powers are but keep in mind that the guy has always been fond of a "little trolling" in the stories he presumably appears in.
Explains why they got Doug Erholtz.... Unless his hair is a pillar, he ends up in a wheelchair, or he's chasing Tony Oliver... Trusting him is not wise
Not biblical. It’s certain ancient Hebrew sects. Book of jubilee. That isn’t part of the Christian canon. I also disagree his powers are simple to understand. SMTV is show don’t tell. I’m thankful of that.
@@firepuppies4086 Mastema seems like trustworthy guy though. He has a weird obession with salt though.
@@ironrex6979 you're right, thanks for clarifying that
Amazing video. Im pretty sure that in the coc Tao died revives and then sacrife herself to save the Nahobino just to resurect again at the last part.
I dunno i really liked the True Neutral ending of Vanilla V, where you do free the world from the mandala effect just as Lucifer wanted, but as a Nahobino you're now sorta the guardian for it to STAY that way, since the influence of both the divine and demonic will always try to creep back every possible moment.
Based
Still kind of miffed about the lack of a third ending, but even without it the story is definitely an improvement.
neutral CoV ending: sigma male ending
ignore both goddesses and go back to the beginning of the game from lvl 1 because the grind never stops and neither do you
About your alignment choice at the end... while is true that the choices you do during the game decides that fate, if you SOMEHOW manage to stay neutral by the time goddess Yoko appears, then AND ONLY THEN you can make your ending choice between Vengeance Law or Vengeance Chaos.
Law ending easily clears sadly
On me😂
The thing with the vengeance route for me is how well they did Tao and Yoko as the alignment reps and what they ultimately wanted by the end, an aspect SMT4 imo really Fumbled and it ultimately harmed its characters/alignment reps at and is one of if not the most important thing to get right in a SMT story. I liked how their both immature views grew into something more nuanced and balanced by the end of the story. There was actual balance between the endings something that was missing in SMT for almost 2 decades
The Chaos End of Vengeance is just a big gamble
Yep
But it is the beat chance the world has
Granin finally hands over the keys to snake
Honestly being able to play this on my steam deck is what saved it for me.
Currenrly trying to get all the endings again. I did Vengeance Law, to creation Normal Neutral, and currently on Creation Law.
I have to say, I cannot wait to go back to Canon of Vengeance for the Chaos route.
Such a great video man, you earned a sub, looking forward to more videos like this!!!
I liked v i love vengeance.
Same
Both for me. Honestly to truly appreciate SMTV you need both.
Very, very well done and extremely accurate analysis. I also think the games story is slightly better but messy, but not better enough to be considered anything of note. The characters aside from dazai did receive notable improvements which I think make the game slightly overall better. But storywise is nowhere near smt 4 or anything in persona imo.
Law ending of vengeance clears
I got the chaos ending and you got to hold hands with an edgy goth chick, so its worth it 😂
I just want to add a few things, because it seems to be a little bit of confusion as to whether the current universe is free from the mandala system, the short answer is yes, for the long answer, in every single smt game, the world is rid of the mandala system, always, the great will has an avatar in each an every universe, yhvh is usually placed in every universe to test the will of humanity for the great will, at least most of the time, sometimes the test comes from other parties or whoever holds more the law side of things in their respective world, we know the great will is the entity that controls every universe in the smt, including the spin offs like persona, devil digital saga and others, so why am I saying this? because in another universe, there's a guy that actually tells you something important, that once yhvh ceases to exist in a universe, it would not come back, if I recall correctly that guy is stephen, who is just a normal human, but far more powerful than anyone in the current known smt multiverse, because he transcended, stephen appears in smt1 and smt2 as the creator of the devil summoner program, as well as in smt4 and apocalypse, in apocalypse dlc we are told that the messiahs have the potential to eventually become more than the great will, as a rule of thumb, there can only exist 1 messiah at a time, with the exception of smt4, where there's actually 2 of them, even the demi fiend is consider a messiah, but given that he became the true lord of chaos, this gave rise to the events of smt5 (the conception that happens in smt3 nocturne is the cataclysm that happen in tokyo for smt5, or at least this is my current theory, so take it with a grain of salt, there's also a dialogue of lucifer in the demon haunt saying that he gave rise to a dark and ligh messiah, meaning the demi fiend and the nahobino) stephen tells you that the messiahs get rid of the mandala system on their respective universes by taking down yhvh or by rising above humanity to godhood, which is the usual setting of smt, this is further clarify in smtvv by none other than mastema himself, just as a reminder, angels can either have their loyalty pledge to yhvh or to the great will, we know this because metatron says something similar is other universes, that he represents the great will, going back to mastema, because of the defeat of yhvh and transcended lucifer being absord, kei amemura the nahobino successfully gets rid of the mandala system in that time line, which is what mastema tells you, that another version of the nahobino in another timeline has taken down the mandala system but not on the current once (because you hadnt beaten lucifer), then he uses all aspects of yhvh, to summon a primal being from another universe, satan, specifically, satan from smt4, he is just there to test you and see if you can go against the great will in the future.
Now going into why mastema can control tiamat, that's explain to you early in the game on the whole vengeance route, where they tell you that he often control demons, they dont tell you why (though in religion he is consider to be an angel of punishment, who ask god to have demons as his subordinates) but it is reveal to you when he first summons satan from another universe, the reason as to why he control demons besides the religion background, is because he is part of the essence of yhvh, the malice to be exact, he then uses the essences of samael and lucifer from another timeline to summon satan, also another point to have in mind, if you really pay attention, the one to revive tao was no other than mastema, I say attention because it's the same voice, but you can say it's yhvh remaining fragments that stick to tao since she's the goddess of law, which ever one you like is valid if you ask me, since mastema is basically just a part of yhvh.
My last point, yoko, as we know, yoko is the soul that you as kei amemura a messiah, chooses to either rescue or leave behind, the 2 voices in the the half of time imo could be either yhvh himself and the goddess of tokyo, since this are the 2 forces that usually collide in smt guiding or opposing the messiah, but that is just a theory of mine, what we know so far, is that yoko is a soul that can lead a world where not only the mandala system doesnt exist, but where the world exist before even yhvh was put there to test humanity, I think this is the single biggest lore drop on the series, because it could lead to a world completely detach of the great will multiverse, could, but we don't know, at atlus is probably cooking a kind of avengers infinity time game where you actually go against the great will, and I would lose my shit if that happens, because it sounds hype as fuck.
I think the confusion comes from the fact that the game doesn’t explain any of this themselves. All of it is “implied” and even then not close to implied enough to make it clear. In the original endings of the game, the last line of the post credits scene says “can the world truly be free of Mandalas system?” Implying that it’s bound to return. Mastema being able to control demons makes sense but then why does he do nothing at all in the law route of the game when Tiamat and Tahom are summoned ? The easy answer would be that he knew the protagonist would prevail but explanations need to be made for players to accept that. Either way, I hope your theory about setting up for a plot surrounding the great will is true so they can actually attempt to fix this and give us some clarity
@@bluemori2822 I agree that's an issue, the game should make an effort to deliver all this information in a cohesive way, although it is also the fault of the player for not paying attention, they did tell you mastema can control demons, mastema does tell you he no longer serves the god of that universe, he even tell you the player that he is a part of yhvh, more specifically his malice, while it would make the game better if those things where given more exposition, I being playing rpgs for a long time, so im not as spoil as most modern fans, I think part of the fun of videogames and series with extent lore is making theories, finding out little details, bits of information that enrich the experience to you afterwards, making you appreciate the work that was put on, I feel they made an excellent job at building up the basis of what could come for the future of the franchise.
The mandala system is the cycle of death and rebirth decreed by existence itself, also known as the great will, in order to keep time flowing as stated in nocturne.
Smt 5 is the only entry that is free of that cycle
Maybe it's cuz I've always had mixed feelings on SMT's alignment system,but in an actual character driven and hopeful game these characters would be so much more well-written.
Dazai and Yoko are probably the best examples of that.
As someone who first experienced smt 5 through the canon of vengeance,Dazai's sudden shift to being an edgelord and killing Atsuta threw me off so much,that I couldn't take that scene seriously.
It felt like the writing team just gave up on whatever development he got so far just to force a lawful character in the most contrived way imaginable.
When it comes to Yoko,I do love her but not because of who she is as a character but what she COULD have been.
During the first half of the game's story,while she is shown to have an incredibly pessimistic(I don't want to say edgy cuz while I do understand that her comment on cars is a bit out-there,objectively speaking,there's no denying that car accidents wouldn't be a thing if they didn't exist),it’s not a viewpoint she has because she's hateful but because she has difficulty believing that the world can have a better future and the people and systems that manage said world will keep repeating the same mistakes.
But throughout the course of the story we see how she grows to care about Tao and the MC,leading to my favorite scene in the whole game,where Yoko decides to fight against the qadistu and protect both Tao and the MC because as she puts it:"they helped me have a little faith in the future".
She could have had a great character arc of someone who has drowned themselves in pessimism and negativity,but through the companionship of both Tao and the MC she becomes someone who can believe in the future,that the world can be better if we fight for it,but again,we need to throw all that out of the window because"alignments".
Granted Yoko being Chaos makes more sense with her story compared to Dazai,but seeing her regress like that at the end even with everything she learned thanks to Tao and the MC in the first half really feels disappointing.
At least those are my feelings on this matter.
As someone who is replaying the COC aogami says this one line when we meet Dazai at the school during the demon attack "the demon summing program takes a toll on the human soul. The more one interacts with demons, the closer one grows to being like the demons themselves. When a humans nature becomes closer to that of demons, they find themselves more concerned with the affairs of the ethereal realm than those of the earthly realm." So I think it was this combined with staying with abdiel and mastema that made him into a murder as also having yellow eyes showing the transformation so as someone who already didn't enjoy dazai this fixed it for me however I also would understand if they wanted it more fleshed out.
@@geraldthegoose1685 I get that,but I wish there was a bit more built-up.
Like have scenes where little by little Dazai starts losing his humanity instead of just having his character make a complete 180.
It feels like whiplash more than anything
The alligment system is the worst thing in the series even though it is what i wish they did right the most, in most games the alligment system is very poorly done and there is always an obviously better ending, this system could make the roleplay aspect of the game better and add more replay value and of course making people discuss which ending is the best based on their own views in real life, however most of the time these endings boil down to:
> There is an obviously better ending
> There is an ending that is objectively worse or unsatisfactory
OG SMT V actually had a good lineup of endings but with a bad story and presentation for them
Law, Chaos and True Neutral were all valid in my opinion and had their advantages and flaws but what backed up them was so bad that all of them felt unsatisfactory
Vengeance Law is overwhelmingly better than Vengeance Chaos and the only reason for someone to choose Chaos over Law is if they are very paranoic with the possibility of the Marduk thing repeating itself since Nahobino uses the throne or if you simp Yoko.
In the rest of the games except for Strange Journey Redux, all of them boil down to Neutral = Good and the rest is very extreme, in Nocturne TDE is objectively better because it makes up a better story, adds more gameplay and has the most epic parts of the game, SMT 2 people say that the endings are all good but from what i saw all of them boil down to all the factions killing YHVH at the end.
In fact the SMT games with the best alligments are the spin offs like Devil Survivor or even Persona 5 Royal(i know people will ask wtf i'm going about, but i see choosing to stay on Maruki's world or rejecting it as an alligment choice and probably one of the best moral choices i've ever seen in a game too).
@@renren47618 This.
I couldn't agree more with all you said here!
Not only is the alignment system biased since as you said,there's always a better ending,but even then most of the endings boil down to"genocide is the end all be that fixes everything".
I get that the point of mainline SMT is built around you becoming a God to recreate the world in your own image,but it's hard for me to find that kind of storytelling engaging when,not only is genocide(either for humans or demons depending on your allegiance)treated as something cool and badass,as something that should be glorofied,but either ending you get in these games have you side with people who either manipulate you(lucifer from smt3)or are straight up psychotic(almost every law or chaos aligned character in the series).
Funnily enough the only smt games whose stories I do enjoy are smt devil survivor 1(preferably the manga adaptation since the ending and the story choices in that adaptation are what made me love it in the first place)and the digital devil saga duology and it's all because of how character driven and hopeful they are on their own rights,but most importantly,in the case of SMT devil survivor,the Yuzu route and the Naoya kill all humans route,the game pulls no punches on making you feel like garbage for going through either route as it should.
Escaping from your problems and turning into a mass-murdering psychopath aren't options that the game glorofies and I couldn't be happier about that.
Ngl I don't think I've ever seen a take I've agreed with harder than this, I find it so bloody hard to be engaged in these stories because of how the alignment system forces these characters to act with some extreme fuckin ideals that are so over the top it feels genuinely impossible to feel engaged or take it seriously, like maybe it's the point but it makes the characters feel so much less humanised with these larger than life grand ideas of recreating the world to the point that it feels near impossible as a player to actually agree with these characters when it all feels so forced and tied down because of the alignment system. Genuinely the only time I felt like a certain ending made sense from the perspective of the main character was the True Demon ending in SMT3, because as the Demi-Fiend I've been betrayed, used and manipulated by everyone in this game except for the demons who despite some of them being fuckin assholes, were the only ones who actually consistently help you through the game so why wouldn't I want to destroy the world, leave it behind and go to new worlds with the only guys who actually fuckin respected me?? XD
Least that's my interpretation of it lmao
Double comment but I think the two voices were meant to be the god and goddes before YHVH, as every god needs his goddess to help him use the throne
One of the very few things that left me quite displeased was forcing the player back into their Aogami form hours after getting used to and attached to Tsukuyomi, there were countless ways in which it could've been handled better, you could have your cake and eat it, they could still have Tsukuyomi sacrifice himself and bring back Aogami without getting rid of the new form entirely, they could have taken advantage of the narrative climax to deliver the third and final nahobino form that mixes elements from both Aogami and Tsukuyomi and it would've been cool as fuck, just imagine the Nahobino with his signature long hair but silver, they really dropped the ball...it really makes no sense to put so much effort into a new protagonist design and let your player use it for half of their playthrough only to take it away in the final 2 hours of gameplay
Another thing I wasn't a fan of was Mastema being the second final boss of the Chaos route, the fight itself was fine and Mastema was indeed a pretty entertaining villain as always but seeing how the Law route got a completely new demon (Tehom) as their second final boss makes Mastema look boring in comparison, if they didn't want to write an entirely new angel or law antagonist just for a boss battle they could at least give Mastema a new form and combat phase to spice things up but they didn't
I also felt disappointed that Nuwa's nahobino boss and Abdiel's second boss forms are absent from the canon of vengeance, I do like a lot the new characterization they gave to Yakumo and Nuwa making them begrudging allies of the protagonist, their decisive antagonistic role in the CoC felt quite forced as there was no real reason why you should have been forced to kill them, still, I'm sad they didn't find a way to repurpose Nuwa's nahobino boss battle in the Canon of Vengeance, same goes for Abdiel's
Now this is an extremely petty nitpick but it also bothered me how they didn't change Ichiro's attire? He keeps dressing as a high schooler even after he becomes a demon-killing brainwashed psychopath? He has a good design but I feel like they could've come up with an attire upgrade to better reflect his inner change and cement his role as a pawn of the Law faction besides the high schooler uniform
All those things aside, it's one of the best JRPGs I have ever played and a strong contender for one of the best turn-based RPGs of the past decade alongside Persona 5 Royal, Like A Dragon 7 and Dragon Quest XI
I feel like CoV succeeded in a area where SMT4 kinda failed imo and that is the overall handling of the alignment reps, what they ultimately wanted and creating actual balance between their ideal
Yeah definitely agree on the Tsukuyomi stuff I actually grew to like him more than Aogami for the short time we had him. He was a lot more complex as a character and had a very interesting background. They did him really dirty
Story was far from perfect, but leagues better than the OG, so I'll take it. And unlike a lot of people, I really liked Yoko and all her edgy dialogue, lol
It wasn’t edgy just dumb contrarianism. She pretends to be smart but she really isn’t. Also pretty hypocritical
@@azurechief3151 I feel those claims lack a lot of substantion, but sure, I guess. It just kinda sounds like you have a really strong hate boner for her
The moment Yoko went "Cars may be convenient but they have killed millions" I almost felled to the ground due to how BASED and red pilled her rant was. Her inmaculate chaos tism made me love her in all the wrong ways and I do agree her inclusion to the game was all that was missing originally.
ATLUS really has been hating on cars recently, first was Takaya from P3R then Yoko made the exact same argument in Vengeance 😆
How is that red pilled? You kids just throw around terms
Well. That wasn't all that was needed to fill in originally....The characters are a lot more fleshed out in this version than before. In the original, they were kind of just....there. I currently just got to the third map. Still saving my judgements since what the original mainly lacked for me was dungeons.
Lol Jesus Christ, Joker.
calm down my guy.
@@shuouma7120 there was nothing based she’s just a dumbass
Played them in reverse order and much preferred Creation story. In Vengeance, I understood none of the story context, the characters or their sudden personality changes, who exactly the factions were or what they were trying to do, or why the people who make Persona could possibly make writing as stupid as almost all of the NPCs dialogue between these high school students. Meanwhile, in Creation, all of the above things were quite clear, and all of that silly high school kid dialogue was absent. Makes me wonder how much one’s view of these two versions of the game could be affected the order you played them in? I mean, you could hand wave or not even notice a lot of this stuff if you already knew the background story.
Also, the philosophy behind the story made more sense in COC. There were 3 main factions that ended up vying for the throne, and they all had reasonable coherent explanations for why their view deserved to win. In COV, you get Yoko, who seems to confusedly mix order, hierarchy, unfairness, injustice, and human suffering into one thing. In reality, those concepts aren’t linked. Hierarchy exists in chaos, usually in the form of dominance of the stronger and more vicious, order can be hierarchical or egalitarian, and human happiness and suffering equal out in any system. All of these concepts are distinct from one another. I actually liked Yoko and sided with her early on, but when I saw she had no coherent arguments, was hoping to hear Tao’s side of things, only to, in the end, being given no choice.
Ultimately, I enjoyed the gameplay and atmosphere of both games, just commenting here on story from the point of view of a total newcomer to the series.
lol, didnt know it was sum total of game choices that give you your rep. i reloaded a save and picked the other choices in the final convo and got the other ending... mustve been right on the edge
Canon of creation saved shin Megami tensei canon of vengeance just proved SMTV was amazing. People have to stop lying about SMTV
Nope.
Brown Linda Taylor Ruth Lee Cynthia
Also SMTV > smtiv and it is a genius return to form. It’s not poorly placed. Smtiv was poorly paced and full of pointless exposition. A lot of what you are saying was covered in SMTV. Mark my words SMTV will be appreciated in the future it is show don’t tell. Also Tao is the best character in vengeance.
With Vengeance being my first time personally playing an SMT game (after having seen someone play the original game already), I can respect a lot of the criticisms brought up during this video.
I’m aware that Law endings in the series historically have a very bad reputation, so between this and having already seen a playthrough of the New Chaos end I opted to aim for New Law to see how things played out.
I do find it a little odd how despite Yoko voicing her uncertainties regarding the plans of the Qadistu after traveling with the MC and Tao in Shinjuku, learning that you are both alive again in the final meeting at the Throne does not prompt any further reconsideration on her part and she fully commits to attempting a hard reset on the entire timeline.
If you couldn’t already tell from that, personally I would be a proponent of New Law over New Chaos as the latter effectively feels like a betrayal of almost everyone you’ve met over the course of the story in favor of a complete blank slate. We were opposing the Qadistu for the majority of this game, essentially agreeing to help carry out their end goal doesn’t sit right with me.
But hey, I suppose that’s the point of this series in the end. Sometimes opposing viewpoints are just impossible to reconcile.
@@cyrushalberd624 I only wanted to clarify law endings have been received positively if it’s SMTI, SMTII, SMT SJ (original), and Devil Survivor 1. The internet does not paint reality.
This was quite accurate. I definitely agree that Bethel's leaders should've gotten more screentime before the Taito act.
Its so nice of Atlus giving us the Beta of SMTV so we can play the game while they finished. 😅 I mean, imagine giving a full incomplete game to the public and charging it twice. 😂
People need to understand that just because things were cut, that doesn’t make a game unfinished. You can criticize SMTV vanilla all you want but it’s crazy how people will say the game was “unfinished” because they felt like the story was underdeveloped.
I played canon of vengeance first, and sided with Yoko cause i liked her design, i am playing CoC now, and after i finish i will go back and side with Tao in CoV
Main point is that yoko served as a good foil, in that compared to base V, there were simply too little characters at play, now we have yoko to contrast tao as new contentions, being hope vs starting new, and qadistu and mastema being the main unknown that carries the narrative for awhile
Its kind of frustrating to me its a sequel to 3, where theres little characters to interact to (cuz you know, no humans) compared to smt 1,2,4 where human are still living, allowing machinations like ICBM, Energy reactors and stuff having factors and allowing humans to share big spots
Dude that’s one of the reasons people love it. It continues SMTIII’s legacy. That one was the best although I honestly am loving vengeance a bit more I think?
Also smtiv was not that good. I am happy they are back to growing and evolving the series into something new. The Naobinoh is a phenomenal concept. Canon of creation really shows its weight well. Canon of creation handled the throne and Knowledge themes really well. However vengeance created the themes of the world characters and creation really well too. I find it ironic creation felt more vengeful and vengeance felt more creation focused.
21:54 For me I disliked this part. I was a fan of Tsukuyomi Nahobino and I thought reviving Aogami just because was a lame, fanservice-like excuse, a little too much for a SMT game. I understand the Bull god vs Snake thing but they could have done this better without making Tsukuyomi (a better develop character than Aogami) sooo dirty killing him and only being mentioned in a chair conversation. "Ah, yes, my brother died btw."
I didn’t mind the moment generally speaking but I was kinda pissed they did Koshimizu like that. He was a pretty damn good character this time around and he got booted from the plot unceremoniously
@@bluemori2822 Right! I also felt excited for a second but then the more I thought about it the more mad I got. I thought they were going to make Koshimizu shine and make Tsukuyomi Nahobino the "Nahobino of this canon" so the change destroyed me a little when I had already gotten used to him and bother to do his quests (the one you got his essences and the whole Miyazu blaming him) to know him more. He even abandoned his own path to follow the protagonist.
I felt that once I got to the final map many cutscenes felt rushed. 🥲
I'm glad I'm not the only one anyways! I thought it was me for a second because I haven't seen people say it. Overall this game is a huge improve.
Yoko for President/Goddess
God no she was dumb contrarian muh cars be bad
@@NicoEntertainment Tao is better
@@ironrex6979 Nah man fuck dictatorship.
Kind of hated how they made Dazai the bad guy and killed Tsukuyomi tbh. Wished the story went down different paths at times. Gameplay improved though and we got some more demons which is a plus. Good thing I didn't spend too much money on this version of the game tbh.
Which you like better: Law with everyone have a redo on their life with no demon interveren. OR chaos with the possible of the world that human and demon share world together.
Vengeance Law ending best ending
@@azurechief3151Agreed. CoV Chaos ending is basically killing everyone except you and Yoko, which I don't agree with at all even if it's for the "greater good." If you want a "humans and daemons live in harmony" ending just go with Apocolypse's Bonds or SJR's new chaos, not CoV Chaos.
@@KrimsonKattYT the problem is those two endings you mentioned do not reflect SMT Chaos alignment philosophically. That was a major critique towards the new Chaos ending in DSJ. It’s more a neutral ending than chaos, a cop out. While Apocalypse bond ending is neutral as well… badly written but neutral. CoV Chaos ending is beautifully written and fits its alignment, however I prefer the law ending in CoV more since I like Tao and agree with SMTV’s law side’s philosophy for the most part.
taito is basically just a straight up copy from coc like at the very least they could have fixed the temple of eternity or added something interesting when it came to story i just feel like im playing the same game i was playing back in 2021 the first 50 hours where good but then when they moved into shakan it just took a nosedive and i dont know why hopefully we can get smt 5 revengeance to fix the it
Redditor Girl really didn't save it, but it at least gave a proper Law/Chaos dichotomy discussion
@@nwz6084 lmao yes Yoko was such a joke
Canon of Vengeance makes the og story(canon of creation) obselete just for how much better written it is
Fr tho
No it doesn’t did you even play the game? Vengeance simply reinforces Creation and vice versa. Both are excellently written compared to the 3Ds games. Weaker than the Kaneko games but at least it is an improvement from their previous 3Ds entries.
@@azurechief3151 ok i worded that terribly so thats on me
Yes i did play the original when it was released and i played vengeance. What i meant to say past my bad wording is that CoV feels more complete and coherent than CoC.
Yes there are aspects in vengeance that assumes you're familiar with Creation but in terms of character development and concept realization, Vengeance is far better imo
most of the story was improved but i think taito was really done poorly this time, most of the changes just felt like they were there just for the sake of changing something and there wasnt enough buildup to the area
I love how they fixed so many player complaints. Like how the alignment in canon didn't matter bc you can just choose at the end. Meanwhile in vengeance your choices matter and you're locked into order or chaos