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Coaching 0:00
Introduction 0:11
Misinformed Cele Haters? 0:48
"Cele is allowed to be bloated" 1:39
Outnumbered Fights Cope 2:03
Bruiser and Cele Difference 2:36
"Cele is needed for solo roaming" 3:09
"New Players Need It" 4:00
PERFECT Example Of Cele Being Broken 4:20
Streamer Cope 5:45
gw2 guild wars 2 - เกม
Well said Noody. I find it mind boggling to see how many people defend Cele gear - the comments here are a good example. Boon spam from certain classes is obviously also a problem - the 2 kinda go hand in hand. But its so easy to see how hard cele carries players, especially in 1vX vs multiple cele builds. I dont think this is a case of balancing for pro players, its more a case of really experienced players being able to see the issues better than less experienced players.
Amazingly said Exzen, it’s so funny to see that all the people who have commented on this defending cele I have never heard of, and are obviously extremely casual players who don’t really know what is and isn’t broken. On the other hand a huge majority of the people who are agreeing with me I can verify are good players that I’ve seen 🤣
Everything you said is correct but this big deal everyone who hates on cele missis is this… Your a small group. There I said it. Celestial is only a strong stat for two game modes, open world and WvW roaming… Roaming isn’t even a real game mode just a way some people (vey few comparatively) play WvW. Why would the devs nerf a stat combo that has almost no uses just to make like 200 people (hardcore roamers) happy?
As someone who abuses celly I 100% agree it needa to go lol.
@@hanabal898no, these glass cannon meta builds have to go. Trying to enforce that shit on other players is just cancer.
Vallun's builds helped me win fights
I dropped the game 2 years ago because i had a terrible old laptop and i got new one YESTERDAY and got back into gw2 and im glad to see your still making videos as i used go watch them back in the day keep it up❤🎉
I have a minstrels build i run for zerg support. Sometimes when im running around to catch up with groups I'll get targeted by roamers. I do exactly no damage lol but they either can't kill me or have a hard time killing me, to which I always get whispered and accused of being a cele player, which is crazy because I do no damage lol makes me feel like some people can't tell the difference and are just looking for something to get mad at
No way you used a soulbeast one shot build as an example. It’s literally the best build against power builds you can literally just one hit them with like a 3 ability combo. Also the fight started off with him way down range. At least use a real example wtf.
Agreed Noody! Either nerf cele or change boonspam capability on cele builds. Both cannot exist.
better buff ele dagger and sword raw damage if cele is getting nerfed.. Roll back to pre feb 2020. Power, crit, condi and sustain math lol Hey roll back to damage math pore 2017. Well roll back crit nerf pre 2013.
cele stats most definitely can carry. the sheer sustain some professions and builds can manage allow for fights where even if you play perfectly you will eventually just die to an opponent who wont go down. Chain as much cc as you want. Interrupt heals, dodge every attack. Against some builds in small team/solo fights you will just lose because they can sustain longer than you can deal damage. its very unfun and very frustrating to loose to a player you were beating because they are made of adamantium and also have condis (most likely). I'm not saying every build should loose to a power build but I do think I prefer to play a version of this game where split second decisions, evasiveness and good execution is more powerful than the ability to delay death through sheer toughness and stats.
i disagree, this is not a shooter game where faster trigger wins. Strategy is important here, and part of the strategy is choosing what counters your enemies. Your subjective desire is not different than someone saying exactly the opposite. Not that i agree with what im going to say, but i could rant saying that "the game shouldnt be about who has better pc processor, graphic card and ping latency and can react faster, it should be about the strategy and decisions". I stand on a neutral ground and i think players can have multiple different builds in their tabs, and they can easily disengage change build and go back to their objective, be it a building capture or an enemy kill. It has to be the players who evolve to counter obstacles, not the game having to adapt to particular desires of particular groups of people.
If they remove the expertise and concentration from it then it would be balanced again. Or another option would be to lower the stats on it
Celestial stats were quite fine before they added boon duration and condi duration
Celestial stats were completely useless at first, everyone said it was just crap.
Or do you mean by 'fine' = _unusable_ and therefore *ok* because nobody wants to use it?
i believe celestial stats were still okay, it's just that people hadn't realised it.
They were okay but didnt have so much boon uptime and condition duration, thats what kept them in check
Great video, Noody!
I agree with all points.
Thanks for doing the math for those using "science".
I am casual filth. In fact, I belong to a guild called The Casual Filth. When I go into WvW solo, I am constantly aware of what is going on around me and in map chat. Because I am fully aware I'm going to be killed by a mob at my level 95. When I join up with other players I manage a lot better. I can play support, I can excel with my soulbeast, and I can swap to another toon when needed. The thing about Valun and you other elitists is you hold far too much sway with ANet, and you hold us filthy casuals in contempt. I have to bite my tongue watching a lot of videos because I need to get past being insulted for not being experienced enough before I can learn the content.
A toxic community sucks, no matter what. Fortunately Gw2 roaming has one of the nicest communities I have seen in a competitive game, if you go to dueling areas most people there are more than willing to teach you a few tid bits of information that after a while will help you learn the content. But even with the toxicity, it does not justify having an unbalanced game mode where the easier the build is the better it is. And I am sorry, but as a newer player you should be beaten by more experienced players. Saying otherwise would make it not a "competitive" game. While most people have suffered where you are now, it shouldnt mean we can all use a broken build and "get good" that way. It should take time and dedication, some players have even played for a literal decade and are considered bad by most of the community. And while as a new player you should have bruiser/tanky builds to fall back on, those builds should not hard carry you in the damage department as well. Core condi necromancer might be the perfect example of this, it was a super simple build that was incredibly tanky, but at the same time unless you really got good with it the build did no damage. It also had a weakness more experienced players could abuse, and that was the shroud cooldown. That to me is the perfect example of the build you should be playing, not a harbinger that is tankier than a core necro but also can kill people by spamming its auto attack. Celestial needs to be nerfed, and many other builds do as well.
@@sylver4494 Thank you, I appreciate you kind words. I'm not new, I've been in the game 6 years. My necro is my strongest toon, and hardest to kill, and Harbinger is awesome. Guess I need to find a WvW guild to hang out with consistently.
Ah then replace my wrong assumption of you being new to being a casual. Honestly I don't really get the hate for casual or bad players as long as they aren't being toxic themselves, so I am sad to hear you are getting so much hate by the community. And something else I just thought of, I wish casual players could enjoy being casual. It seems like all the casual wvw players still want to win and will defend celestial and other broken builds because of that. But isn't being truly casual playing for fun, no matter if you lose? A competitive player like me has fun by learning skills and winning, so that is what I try and do. I don't always win, but as long as I learned something I have fun. So I guess I am looking for an answer, as a casual player do you only have fun from winning or learning skills? Because if yes, abusing celestial is the unbalanced way to do it that hurts the competitive part of the game. If no, why do you feel like you need celestial? I get how being 1 shot is not fun for anyone, but in wvw a casual player should just enjoy fighting no matter if they win or lose no?
@@sylver4494I can't speak for them but try considering how these topics are nearly always brought up, and after considering can you genuinely tell me there are diverse and varied opinions on how to make something balanced and fair?
Quite a few can say celestial is an issue which is fine, but they're also seemingly incapable of speaking on how to make it balanced and fair for the game. It's just constant complaining which is how the PvP and WvW communities have been for years. So in this person's case as a casual player, why shouldn't they be annoyed when it seems like they're not even considered at the table for these discussions.
Hell let's say many people got what they wished for and celestial was hard nerfed, could you look me in the eyes and tell me all of those people would also be asking for more balancing of other issues? Since I haven't really seen much of that outside of the VERY early days when GW2 first came out
@@imverytired1164 Many people have different opinions on how the game should be balanced, the point I make is there is no legitimate argument for a competitive game to have something like cele stats or cele builds. All players who are unbiased by using celestial stats agree on that. Removing or nerfing celestial stats is what everyone unbiased agrees on. And there is a diverse amount of opinions, I for one am for removing celestial stats, but others think nerfing it would be fine.
A casual player is not considered at balance discussions for one reason, they are casual. Like I said, a truly casual player should enjoy being casual which means they do not enjoy winning as much as they enjoy playing. Because of that, a casual player can play as they like but a competitive player cares about balance issues while a casual player really shouldn't, based off of what being a casual means. If they are not casual and they care about balance and winning, then they lose the ability to say that cele is fine because it helps them win. Its basically admitting that it is unbalanced by saying that they know they aren't as good as their opponents, and they would like to abuse bad balance to win without learning the skills to do so. Which again, does not make this a competitive game like all pvp should be that wants to keep its players invested. Good balance in a game is good for everyone. And also like I said I have no issue or dislike of casual players, but it seems like many players who defend celestial aren't actually casual but are competitive players who like winning but don't have the skill to do so, which means they should not be winning. I also don't have any hate for bad players, I am more speaking from an objective point of view: the better player should have the advantage. We have an entire balance team no? This game clearly wants to appeal to all audiences, and it fails to do so.
And yes I could look you in the eyes and say that if celestial was nerfed people would be calling for other things to be nerfed. Celestial is far from the only issue, it is just the biggest one that lies in the center of it all. Many people complain about thief, soulbeast, and salvation revenant just for example. Ask any player who does not like celestial if they want other things to be fixed as well, and I am 100% certain that they all have other things they want nerfed or buffed.
Lets say all players are runing full celestial gear,then the only reason NOT to go full celestial is if you can get enough dmg to ONESHOT full celestial players,a simple meta emerges,this is still not as bad as RESILIENCE gear in World of Warcraft.
You nailed it my G
Cele gear sure takes the pressure of the team support. When dressed up for glass battle they have a hard time healing/cleansing up against the damage done. Durability is key here.
The problem, largely, is not wanting to gut Cele in open-world/instanced pve, because it's quite fun and well-balanced there. Most suggested nerfs I've seen would have to apply to WvW only (which is fine, though it's odd for only one prefix to have different stats in WvW compared to PvE) or else make Celestial much less good in PvE.
[Request]: Is there any way to see the full list of points that your roaming-council presented to the balance team or is this under some sort of NDA?
I agree with this request and i think you are being very polite about it. I only heard this guy saying subjective arguments and comparing his own fights. Where are the numbers? I wouldnt like to think that this is someone who is used to oneshot people on thief (or teleport-stealth escape when losing) and now is sad that people can actually escape him... I dont know this guy so im giving the benefit of doubt but some youtubers are under the impression that roaming is synonym of hit and run, rinse and repeat... which anet dev made that statement? You can roam with anything you want, and if your strategy is to go full berserker scholar with writs and one shot people with deadeye rifle, soulbeast longbow, dragonhunter traps, then do it... if your strategy is to play basically a support tank and wait for the squishy berserker to run out of ammo, go ahead... and if your strategy is to play something in the middle, thats also good... Is very biased by people playing high mobility builds to think that they are allowed to tap on enemies and assess if they wanna fight or leave, but then think that other players without that mobility cant do the same with a different set of attributes.
Cele dp good? Vs dp power? This is for wvw. Or dd is better for wvw?
I've watched this video three times, but I have to say, if in the end, if it's all about experience and number of people, maybe your argument isn't so far from Vallun... I mean, you need to understand that the vast majority of people aren't proplayers or aren't trying to be there. Using proplayers as a base is just a really, really bad way of saying that to have fun in the little game you need to play based on meta stats (Berserker and Minstrels, mostly).
great job
If you get into a new game and go into competetive its normal that you get rekt why does it have to be just that new players (who dont know what a dodge is) just get carried it shouldt be like that. Also if i swap my trinkets to cele on sic ems slb and get the same dmg but way more defense this is just not right
Imagine dying to someone who doesnt know how to dodge? YIKES 😭
Dude wearing cele doesn’t just make you unkillable. Any new player using cele would get walked by a decent player in zerker. Idk why people even make the new player argument if someone can’t play the class it doesn’t matter what gear they have.
@@imnezu8940 i dont think you understood what i was saying ofc you can still kill decent players even on cele but if a new player gets carried by just the stats comparwd to mid players its unfair
you said you actually got anet devs in a call with you? any chance theyll actually put in balancing work to wvw roaming in the future?
In my opinion Anet should split cele into two new stat options one focused more around damage and the other more around defence and boon duration, still allowing builds that dip into everything but forcing players to choose.
I reckon if cele gear had around two thirds as much vitality, toughness, healing and concentration as it does now it would still be viable in roaming situations.
I like this suggestion... a slightly supportive Viper's or a slightly damaging Minstel's, without making them too shitty.
Already exists, that's called Viper and Minstrel
I totally agree man! I had celestial p/p blind spammer on daredevil and it's digusting the amount of 1v2s I have gotten away with and won and the amount of 1v1s I have won with that build. I have recently actually thrown that gear in the bank and on my other character going to use them in pve setting only.
I try my best not to use it. Every now and then I still do but it's a horrible/disgusting build IMO. The amount of damage it deals and with the build you can take I think it's called cover in shadow so when you enter stealth you gain protection. . .oh wait protection now I am practically unkillable unless I use too much of my initiative. And I am not going to over extend that in 1v1 most of the time so it's like gaureente victory almost. . .
I try to play only power builds now a days as I feel cele and condi are just "mean" or not as fair especially against new players. Do I have a one shot build? Power? Yes but I don't use that as much as well as it can be boring one way to play it and so I tend to use fun builds (rune of golemancer xD) and try specter power every now and then but I suck at that. xD
Maybe if they nerf vitality, toughness, and healing power. Leave the rest of the stats the same. Just to make it a bit more squishy if a nerf does happen? But I don't think that it will soon and so I think we just got to live with it. But that's what I would do I guess look at 2-3 of those stats. Just lower them a few numbers. Even if it was negative -2 on all of those armor pieces stats would make fights against cele gear or cele vs cele fights take way less time and I would consider that a soft nerf or softest nerf.
Celestial is perfectly fine but once you got some experience under your belt you are suppose to take it off its like training wheels on a bike.
5:04 "I am running a well balanced soul beast build..."
Me Looks at his boon bar: perma protection, perma regeneration🤣🤣🤣
A well balanced build will be you playing as a warrior with no boons, warrior is the only class that has well balanced builds. Everyone else have broken builds with perma protection, perma regeneration ,perma barrier, and on top of that they also have damage reduction traits and foods. What you have is not a well balanced build, you have a build that takes advantage of the broken damage reduction mechanic. -33% damage reduction from protection, -10% damage reduction from food, -10% damage reduction from traits, and in some cases an extra -10% damage reduction from other sources like runes, and extra traits.
If you think that you are running a well balanced build, then you are delusional!
I don’t think you understand, I meant balanced in the sense that it has strong damage and sustain. I didn’t mean balanced as in the build is not extremely busted.
Also, stop liking your own comments it’s kind of obvious when you have a like on your comment seconds after posting it 🤣
@@Noody So, did you just liked your own comment? The internet is full of people, if you think I am the only one here on the internet, you are delusional on that as well. 🤣
well depends on the point of view someone will see, I think celestial gear is "good" for new players so they can learn and not die in 2 shots and leave the game. Does that gear needs nerf? I do not really think it does, yes you get some survivability plus but meh... when you have builds like thief that can kill you with out even go out of stealth you need those celestial gears because the new players will stop playing the game not because it is bad game but because let's face it no one likes start a new game experience and die 1 shot after 2 min in the WVW
I stopped roaming after they changed up DD after HOT pre POF. Now i just zerged, also i got too used to action cam, makes playing thief too hard, also you should have gathered good player nor top 1%, get some casuals to have a fair discussion because thats true balance. LoL does the same mistake patching things around the 1%.
Nice video noody. I'll say what I said in the vallun video. Cele itself isnt that OP it's the fact that with Anet trying to "balance" everything to do everything the problem is in the Boons and the access to all of them on every class now. Cele without self might stacking hits like a wet noodle the problem starts when you have all this might generation on top of the fury and then the tankyness from protection ontop of the 2.9k toughness u get from base cele gear lol the fact that cele has more power with 25 might stacks than a base zerkers power without might stacks is just stupid, and that they can maintain those stacks with the free 45% boon uptime with the free concentration and having extra condi duration so ur condi tick last longer and ur free 600 healing power when u have constant regeneration boon. So ye the reason cele is now used more than ever is now everyone can just generate boons outta nowhere so easily and with the addition of concentration it's easier to maintain them. nobody used cele until more elite specs got more boons and every attack did some sorta condition damage and they added the concentration and expertise. They definitely need to reduce the stat amount of cele because free 600 heal power and 2.9k toughness with 45% boon duration simply provides too much background stats that you wouldn't other wise get on a dedicated power or condi build.
Finally a lucid comment, celestial gear is not the problem. The problem is the insane amount of self boon by certain classes that makes then meta in roaming such as catalyst, wilbender and harbinger for example
I don’t know if I can think of another game that has a gear set that by its nature provides more stats than all others. The concept is cool, but I agree from purely a mathematical perspective that celestial should provide the same total stat value as comparable gear. Otherwise it will always be at an advantage (ignoring other factors like player skill, choices, spec build, etc…)
I am no expert on how stats scale in GW2, but this is true only if points are equal across the spectrum of the stat. i.e. going from 0-100 in a trait is the same as 2000-2100. If focusing on Power (as an example) gives more damage at the top per point then the Cele idea of providing more points isn't horrible. However from what Noody was providing it appears it is the same so more points would create more of an OP situation.
I am not super skilled on 1v1 dueling (in fact I suck generally) but only run cele on my Scrapper in general using it to be more tanky trying to survive in roaming while capping camps.
From a purely mathematical perspective? ugh... Stats do not exist in a vacuum, and mathematics can go beyond "bigger number better". Cele builds are not 75% better than berserker builds despite the gear providing 75% more stats, and I'm not gunna waste my time explaining why. The reality is that cele should have more stats than other combinations because it's inherently difficult to take advantage of every stat in the game. It's just that 75% extra is a little overtuned in the current context of wvw.
@@duncanrobertson6472 Dang. I wish I was intelligent enough to earn this guys’ time. Thank you for gracing us with a comment, though salty it was.
@@codywilson2733 You could figure it out too if you weren't so lazy yourself
From what I run into, the classes that I find unkillable are often daredevil/deadeye/thief, catalyst and willbender and the problem with those classes are more mobility + sustain. I don't know if cele gear is common for those builds, but when they are losing they just teleport/stability run away, which is more and indication that some classes are just not quite balanced yet given they seem to be the meta for roaming. As a newer player perma stealth and access to frequent teleports seems more broken to me. Those mechanics need more thought before cele gear in my opinion.
Having mostly cele gear on one of my builds stops me getting 1-shotted, so at east I have a chance to fight (ping being a real challenge). I've grinded for 3 pieces of lege gear and that experience just plain sucks, but is a game changer with the lege armoury. Until I get complete lege sets, cele gear still has a place for me (and maybe other casual players) and unfortunately some builds can be made near unkillable because of that stat choice.
Just and idea, if they made exotic gear stat changeable (WvW), so newer players could lose a fight, adapt gear and try again (more like PvP), by all means take cele gear out of the game. If they adopted that PvP style system for WvW the balance team would theoretically have less workload and can focus more on getting the balance right (especially going into the chaos of what they have planned).
All of the builds you mentioned are not nearly as problematic as cele for one reason: if they make a mistake and you punish it they die. While those builds are all oppressive, I only think one of those specs is actually as problematic as celestial builds are where they can not die even if they make mistakes. While they can always out of combat against most things, a new player will not be able to get results against an experienced player using those classes with the exception of daredevil and deadeye depending on the matchup. And if you play celestial I think I have found the problem with people running away from you, they enter the fight and see that they do not have the damage to kill you, so they leave. If a player thinks they can kill you they will be more aggressive, I rarely have people out of combat against me. And cele gear can stop you from being 1 shot but so can other builds and stats, but those builds cant 1 shot other players like the better celestial classes can. Those other builds will help you with your bad ping, it can take the form of skill used in a fight from quick reaction based gameplay to more of a resource management style. But again, don't be surprised when players ooc against you when you play these builds. They are boring to fight for many players, and since the glassier builds generally have more mobility they will simply choose not to.
@@sylver4494 Oppressive is a great word I'd also use to describe them too. Based on what you said, of those meta spec/classes I mentioned, 20% is a problem with cele gear and 80% are 'oppressive' just by virtue of the spec/class. Of those 5, 60% have access to stealth, does that mean stealth should be removed?
Why shouldn't the balance team focus on balancing oppressive meta builds instead of a stat line?
I think you're right and some classes that run cele gear extremely frustrating/boring to play against. I play cele condi/mechanist (lvl 80 boost gear) and love brawling in the middle of small-scale fights, I also die plenty (I know, not the best build).
Personally I'm time poor and don't want to choose grinding lege sets over playing the game for fun, that's why I think GW2 devs should focus on class balance over cele gear.
I said that only one of those builds functioned as cele, with cele gear all of those specs are overpowered. The point I was making is that while those specs are all oppressive, all but one it is possible to kill them by being more experienced as long as they are a power build. And I dont think that the balance team can focus on oppressive classes while cele gear exists, for example if you took away stealth most of those builds would be forced to take cele gear to survive. The power thief builds need high stealth uptime or they are vulnerable, and while they are far from balanced removing that from them would for them to run tankier builds. So by nerfing stealth on those oppressive specs, instead of balancing them you make it so the only option they have is to run cele. On my channel I have a video that goes more into that concept. Cele is the first issue that needs to be fixed, because it is the best nerfing any other issue will only force everything to run cele gear or it will be completely unviable.
@@sylver4494 so to simplify, for thief stealth = survivability and no stealth = cele gear to survive. In that scenario doesn't that make celestial gear the fairest option for all classes as they all have access? And of my examples if 100% are oppressive builds with or without celestial gear why does that mean the gear stats makes a difference?
Would it then be more likely that class mechanics are the root of the issues. My point is that celestial gear on some classes just makes the symptoms worse.
Thank you for your invite to watch your video, do you go over the list of other classes that you think celestial gear makes a broken class in WvW?
@@MajorHuck So all classes should be the exact same with no diversity, all cele gear with no differences in how they play? Seems like good balance and a healthy game to me! It would be better for all classes to have different strengths and weaknesses, instead of them all being cele bruisers. And while all your classes are oppressive and unbalanced, celestial builds are even more unbalanced and oppressive because they do not have any weaknesses while the ones you mention do. And all of them become even more overpowered with celestial gear besides deadeye. It seems you missed my point, while there are other unbalanced things nerfing them will only force them to use celestial while it exists which proves the point that celestial is unbalanced. I do not go into a list of all the builds that I think celestial gear is op for, because it would be easier for me to do this. I will list the specializations that I think the best in slot power build is better than the best in slot celestial build for overall roaming: Deadeye, vindicator, and there are arguments for power spellbreaker, power willbender, and power weaver being better then their cele builds, but I am personally unsure. Assuming I am correct, how is celestial not the biggest problem?
I do use celestial...however, only as a flamethrower scrapper, and by no means is that an OP build. It's definitely good but I'd argue celestial is busted depending on the class, and not for all classes.
the most broken classes of the cele gear are druid perma stun+condies | harbringer | willbender | CATA. The other cele players with different from those classes are easy to kill.
Cele virtuoso? Cele vindicator? Cele herald? Cele defense warrior? Kill me on any of those and I’ll give you 200g 🤣
@@Noody does this offer extend to me too? 🤑
but yeah your point stands, all classes are broken with cele. There are a few specs that the cele builds arent the best, but even for those nothing has the same insanely busted risk reward ratio as cele builds.
Most disappointing moment for me was when I equipped full cele and discovered that it wasn't lack of skill that was making me lose 1v1s, it was the lack of cele gear.
I’d rather keep a variation of celestial then to go back to the everyone using berserker meta where fights last 10 seconds and you always lose to a thief.
If Anet really made such a step foraward to group with ya'll, I am honestly surprised. Other question is: are they going to listen and care enough to change it?
Well done video. Another issue is the boon access that could be toned down. Getting insta all the boons (or majority) by clicking one button without the need to hit any skill is just dumb.
Wish you luck with the goal you all made for yourself! 🖤
This was a year ago and some changes were implemented, some werent. It was nice that they heard us out atleast
I mostly play PvE, I love soloing champion mobs in celestial gear when there is nobody to help. It could just be nerfed in WvW, but that would get rid of solo roaming for many. Not all though...
if you need cele build for solo roaming, you just have to get better. It just means you're mechanically not good enouth and you have to actually learn how to play the game. i learnd a friend how to play necro and he choosed to go for the cele harbiger build in mcm but he only got bad habits from it. once we went for competitive PVP he realised he was horrible at the game once he tryed to play the same way and had to learn eveything again .. cele build just stops you from getting beter in my opinion.
@@dwayy8051 cool, I know. I said I just solo champion mobs in PvE with it.
@@dwayy8051 you still have to be decent at the game to solo champion mobs no matter what gear you're wearing...
Well articulated great video nood
I think i see both sides, but i only play thief and willbender so i always have the possibilty to disengage when i see i cant fight a random cele noob. At the same time i rarely if ever see good players running cele because its boring af to play.
great video man ! this is the reason i lost alot of fun in wvw i hope u guys can change it
and mounts :)
You're right. Thankfully Anet doesn't balance by shed sweat weight. Not that many people care anyway, and others can fuck off to alpines for fair duels.
DAM MY BOY REALLY WOKE UP AND CHOSE FACTS TODAY lmaoo
I run full dragon willbender gs/ss and am able to 1v1 cele players if they are bad but if they have decent mechanics I tend to run away 😂
Don't you think it's a bit paradoxical when *you* , as a main thief player with _perma stealth_ , talk about game balance?
How many are also clamoring for removing 'perma stealth' from the game? And in gw2 'stealth' = 100% transparency !
.. and this has nothing to do with camouflage, how its "normally" used in different games by assassins, thieves or ninjas as well,
were you have to wear _black at night_ , _white in snow_ or _mixed green in the jungle_ - or you have to jump into a pile of leafs 😄 .
Is there some kind of transcript of your Discord discussion with the Balance Team - or an audio record?
It's the paradox of "when I do it it's skill, when others do it it's cheat"
I honestly don't know how anyone can try to defend cele builds. I know some of the builds i play are really easy/strong too, but i can recognize that. Its like when i play soulbeast and hit one wolf pack, sic em, and rapid fire and kill something instantly, ill sarcasticly say "damn im good". Cele builds are just as easy and way more forgiving, but some of the people who play it wont admit it because its fun winning, and you win more with cele. Good vid and nice points 👍
Soulbeast isnt op you just bad git gud nerd
isn't 1 shot trickshots based on the element of surprise, perma stealth and ridiculus range ( 2019-2020 meta) worse?
@@akhsdenlew1861 as annoying as one shot builds are, no I don't think it's worse. One shot builds have a trade off...they go full dmg and have no sustain. If they miss their burst or don't down you, they are a free kill. Cele builds have no trade off. You do almost as much dmg as full power builds, and ur tanky with really good sustain.
Tanky metas are never fun. I remember season 1-2 of pvp around when hot came out, chrono bunkers were a thing. If they capped a point, they would own it for the rest of the game because you couldn't kill it. Most games went to the timer.
Stealth builds are annoying too and I actually think cele builds are similar to them, in that both are just incredibly boring to fight. On stealth spam builds ur just constantly waiting for them to come out of stealth...most of the time I don't even consider fighting sa thief's an actual fight. Cele builds are so easy and forgiving, I keep landing full burst combos into them and it does nothing. They just keep re sustaining. Depending on my class, fights either end in stalemates where no one goes down, or I'm playing a class like dh that slowly just gets worn down over time and I have no chance of winning, regardless of player skill. You should win fights by playing it well, not because of the gear you chose. I think if you want to be as tanky as the current cele builds are..fine..but you shouldn't be doing good dmg too.
@@FatesGuidance i can asure you that my cele warrior is doing significally less dmg than my power warrior though... like.. WAYYYY more dmg.
there are very few cele builds that are doing too much dmg... with harb being the most problematic ofc.
Anyway at least with cele builds, i can run away from them, or chase them and hunt them down ... with a perma stealth thief, this was never the case.
A cele build losing the fight, means that it does.
A thief losing the fight, means that he just stealths or teleports /dodges away only to re-engage a few secs later when his CDS and initiative are back.
I would rather have this cele meta than seeing 80% thiefs again... i had this for 2-3 years.
@@akhsdenlew1861 I'd prefer anything over this cele meta tbh, lol. I'd rather fight tb people and one shot builds over it. Sa thief's are annoying, but there's a reason my main 3 classes are spellbreaker, dh, and soulbeast...they all have skills that reveal.
Ur right that you can run away from most cele builds, but some cele people will literally follow you for 20 minutes. People play games to have fun....and fighting cele is not fun. I'd rather log and go do something else. Anet has made a lot of changes over the years making it harder and harder to solo roam. One of those changes being the buff to cele. If I'm in a 1v2 or 1v3 against 3 bad players and one is running cele, it's almost impossible to win it. Even if I can down the other 2, the cele player has so much sustain, the others can run back before you get the cele player down.
I've fought cele players who wasd turn, back peddle, and can't move and use their skills at the same time. It still takes several minutes to down them or stalemates depending on my class . I'm not the best player in the game, but to constantly land full bursts on someone when they use no mitigation and it does nothing is not fun. Even in the rock paper scissors meta, you can beat ur counter if ur way better. I fought a thief while playing dh, and he won way more because he was the better player. If I play dh vs cele, I basically lose regardless of skill level. I think if you play bad, you should be punished for it. Like I'm relearning how to play holo right now and I keep losing fights because I'm overheating and missing my important skills...I should be losing those fights since I'm making so many mistakes. If I was in cele gear..all my mistakes won't matter as much and I'd still win most of my fights...and that's the problem with it.
My friend lost a fight to a bad player running cele gear a few days ago...he swapped to cele gear too and 1v3ed the guy in a camp the other guy owned. Gear shouldn't carry anyone as hard as cele does. If you want to be tankier, go tb or dire. You shouldn't be tanky, do good dmg, and have good sustain. It literally has no trade offs. There's a reason they removed cele stats in pvp. Do you have fun fighting other cele builds? Because I definitely don't.
i prefer the celestial meta over the Only thief roaming meta we had for YEARS or the perma stealth 1 shotting deadeye we had for over the year around 2019.
Also, the roamers you are talking about... like the really really good ones.. are like what? 0.1% of the playerbase? even less?
Does the game needs to change around their elitist opinion?
I understand that making outnumbered content is getting hard since celestial builds are slower to kill... but it doesn't necessarly mean that you are right.. or wrong.. same for vallun.
You both have good points...but the thing is subjective.
For example you say that long and potentionally never ending duels are worse..
But honestly .i bet that i felt much better when i killed a cele Willbender with my cele warrior after 6 mins, i carefully analized how the fight goes and when is my chance to strike, i made sure to stack 25 might with my signet and went for a pretty long combo in between his ccs in order to kill him... and i don't think it was 6 mins.. it might be even more.
I doubt that your One wolf pack into F2 20sec one shot felt that satisfying....
But again it's subjective... in my opinion there's a lot more to say in the matter...
There is definetly skilled involved in the cele match ups... in a world where everyone is full power, it's just gonna be thiefs and rangers again... we've already lived that.
Becouse when everyone have no defence, the stealth and the insane range are BIS to get the 1st jump and go for the 1shot... i enjoyed this meta as well, but it definetly has it's flaws.
I don't understand what's the problem right now... do u enjoy 1 shot trickshots that much? are u getting bored of long duels? are u having trouble making outnumbered clips?
Becouse 1 thing is certain... you're still gonna defeat bad players... celestial or not, the bad players WILL lose from you.
But the thing is, that it will not be extremely tedious for them.
And that's very important for the health of the WvW roaming.
unless if you want the "village" mentality in wvw roaming, where there is only 20 good roamers and 50 more noname-decent ones.
Becouse if it's a tedious experience for newer players, they are not gonna keep coming.
I believe that celestial helped WvW roaming more than it harmed it... it harmed the 0.1% but it helped more than 20%... i call that a good thing.
The problem is that the 0.1% has A LOT MORE influence than the 20%.. so you're probably gonna get what you want pretty soon...
But i don't think it will be a good thing in the end.. i think the Roaming will suffer, it will return to the "village" mentality, and we're gonna see mostly thiefs and rangers..AGAIN
I don't really care that much about losing my 1 cele build, i have tons of other builds with my warrior to play... but i will care if i lose my content in WvW and i will care even more if i start seeing 8/10 thiefs again.
I think celestial gear should be used only in PVE that's the best solution for everyone
I just don't think 20 players out of a million account should be allow to decide stuffs like if celestial gear is op or not. I mean there are players who if you give them celestial gear (like myself) would be able to go out into wvw and op other players. I just don't op anyone. with any gear. You can say get good or what ever it is people say, it just isn't op for a lot of players. Because 20 players sitting down with Anet and decide something that potentially gonna destroy the one thing that is going good for players who cannot otherwise survive by themself in wvw , that itself is OP
20 Elitists who most probably know every skill in the game and cooldown by heart say its OP because they can no longer 1vX vs 1 Million casuals who button mash their skills on cooldown
@@SPINDANGLE yes.. and all those players want celestial and any defensive thing removed so they can keep 1shotting with their perma stealth thiefs.. before the cele meta, the WvW roaming was 80% thiefs.
Those exact same players were crying about : Rune of durability ( another defensive mainstream option in the form of a rune) and even warclaw ( another gank breaker implemented by anet "recently")
Those 20 elitists want to go in , 1 shot 2-3 goes at once, feel good about it, make clip about it, see a bunch of comments overgloryfying them and Repeat.
Things like rune of durability, warclaw and especially celestial is ruining this thief 1 shot trick meta..
Fantastic video breakdown.
Personally, I feel they should at the very least remove the concentration from the celestial gear as a lot of the cele builds rely on high/perma 25 might stacking (along with fury, prot etc.) with hybrid damage. As might gives both power and condi damage, they effectively get to "double dip" which is how they make up for the loss of damage.
I run a cele condi mech and I don't really care about boon uptime, so would be happy with that compromise.
Even better. Remove its healing power in WvW only.
@@corrinlex1359 that wouldn't make any sense... the stats added to celestial and made into into meta are expertise and Concentration... So something between those 2 stats made the celestial good.
Cus before that, i remember seeing only a few weavers running celestial.
yes but if everyone runs the same celestial gear then unironically you achieve balance. All that need to be done is the flat base numbers of celestial gear just needs a clip down until it rubs shoulders with other gear stat compositions to even viability of other options.
Somebody once told me that Mighty Teapot said that world vs world roaming is a clown show because of celestial gear and broken builds. Truer words have never been spoken.
I personally don’t use cele but I don’t mind ppl using it either.
What I don’t understand is that anet doesn’t divide cele Into major and minor stats like every other stat.
Would be an easy solution to balance it to a certain degree.
Just make it so that power, condi, vitality and toughness are major.
Ferocity, precision, expertise, healing power and boondura are minor.
Still to me, cele is only a Symptome but not the main problem.
The main problem in this game is, that every class has access to everything to make cele even worth it.
Thats a good suggestion
man i'm just getting back into gw2 after an 8 months break, i was fairly still new before the break maybe only 600 hours (70%) in pvp. i think i quit when all you seen were cele weavers running around being an annoyance.
I've said this before, I think the biggest problem with cele is the disproportionate amount of attribute points awarded when compared to 3/4 stat gear (6858 vs 3872 or 4180 respectively). Not all professions are created equal. Therefore, classes that can utilize more attributes will see an advantage over others that don't.
Nothing is ever gonna feel 100% fair.
When everyone was glass cannon, it was obvious that thiefs ( and rangers) had a huge advantage cus of the Range and the stealth... i remember back in 2019, i was seeing ONLY thiefs.
Every day for years if u were to ask me this question " what class did u meet the most in roaming today", the answer was Always "Thief".
now if u ask me.. i honestly don't even know the answer.. lol
Which is a good thing in my opinion.
i just started but the comment above me makes sense, so its more class diversity now and most play whatever they want at least
I cannot imagine attempting to play wvw on a pure power build against insanely unbalanced specs like Thief and Mesmer which abuse mechanics like stealth, instant cast cc and teleports while having great defenses and damage while also having boonrip. Talk about a living hell.
It's truly not so bad. With good prediction and timing you can survive and even beat those 2 professions( I play both as well as every other prof except engi and ranger) also as Noody said A existing and being OP doesn't mean B should exist either. Stealth could and should most likely be toned down aswell.
I'm with you! Stealth frustrates me so much, the fact that it detargets skills already cast is lame, because at least it'd help you track them them to watch where the bullet/arrow flies. GW2 stealth is just invisibility. Every other game handles stealth like a proximity line of sight skill, showing use of terrain, moving sneakily.
@@timothycain8639 here's the thing though, if we wake up 1 day.... and celestial is .. POOF.. GONE.
What's gonna happen?
We're gonna return to 2019-2020 era.. where u see ONLY thiefs in wvw.
Fun.
@@timothycain8639brother plays thise classe. Were u living in a bubble? Literally 3 almost perma stealth thief 1shot u while perma interrupts. That was the meta before cele got buffed. To counter this people played trailblazer and all thief players hated on trailblazer before. This is a common troupe.
I think that trailblazer falls in a similar category, rn cele is just better than that^^
Honestly with the vast majority of my time in the last 5 years spend in WvW solo roaming i firmly believe that cele has and still is perfectly fine. Why? Because it works for some classes and doesnt for others and for some its kinda meh. Imagine they would nerf it, at best everyone playing it quits the gamemode or plays a different flavour of bunker that you cant kill and that cant kill you because not everyone likes 100% skillbased gameplay and at worst we go back to everyone running glasscanons and trying to oneshot eachother without a fight lasting more then a few seconds, which in my oppinion is simply boring and for that matter we have PvP as the gamemode where cele does not exist and if you want that kind of gameplay there you go. Not saying anyone is wrong in feeling that cele is unfun to play against because fun is subjective im just saying that i would like the alternatives even less then cele staying as it is.
I cant name a single class that celestial doesn't work on, it wont work on all specializations but the ones it does work on those builds are the best builds that class has to offer. And even the specializations it doesnt work on, slap the celestial gear on and you can always build a bunker build with some decent damage. And if celestial were nerfed, there are very few bunker builds that actually pose as much of a threat as even the mediocre celestial bunkers do. And if everyone playing celestial quit when the stat type was nerfed they simply should not have been playing WvW in the first place, it seems like they want more of a pve experience. And as for the not everyone likes 100% skill based comment, why are you playing a competitive game? Again, seems like you and people like you would enjoy pve more. I dont even mean these pve comments as an insult, its me observing that you do not want to play a competitive game mode so I don't think you should. In a perfect world even bunker builds would take skill to master, and experience dps players could bunker bust you until you learned those skills. Without celestial that is what the meta would be more like, there would be a few broken builds of course but with a few more nerfs to different areas the game would not be perfect but it would be competitive. And I don't think the game will ever go back to ppl trying to 1 shot each other and duels lasting seconds, but the opposite where everything is so tanky you can not kill them is even worse objectively.
Yeah I would be curious to see what the PvP system of gear would do to shake it up on WvW
@sylver4494, This may deviate slightly from the initial argument of celestial gear, but I'd like to address what I believe is the core issue of your post. Guild Wars 2 is a diverse game but can be somewhat easily split into three distinct parts: SPvP - a (somewhat) akin gamemode to fighting games where skill dominates over stats, PvE - where stats dominate over skill (mostly open world but also structured group content, although it shifts slightly there but only to an extent, compared to SPvP), and WvW - where there is a mix between stats and skill. This being said, we need to take into account that anything where stats matter is inherently less competitive than anything where stats do not matter or matter less, and this is aside from the whole human enemy component. If we now assume that the goal of every game is to attract the largest player base possible, we can see why the three-way split of GW2 is the way that it is because it can attract everyone. Someone who likes no competition plays mostly open world, someone who likes friendly competition of skill plays structured PvE content, someone who likes the human element but also wants stats to play a larger role in their kit because they just don't have the time (or dedication or reaction time or...) to develop their skill with a class, not to mention multiple (because the "meta" shifts drastically with our balance patches), or just wants more variety in their choice of playstyle from the meta restrictions of SPvP plays WvW. Which in my oppinion devalues any argument that states something aking to "if you dont want competative dont play WvW", just because you seek a different ratio of Skill to Stats does not mean you do not want a competative experience, just a different one from a solely Skill dominant one.
@@ravedgevanraved3152 That doesn't address anything for one reason, in a "human component" game bad balance can be abused by everyone. No matter what if everyone abused the same broken stats or classes the better players would win. Skill is impossible to take out of pvp, that is why it is competitive. But bad balance makes it unhealthy, it forces people to play things that they do not want to play if they want to win. It gives advantages to anyone who is willing to abuse the broken stuff, and it will carry them against better players who dont abuse the meta. And even in spvp stats carry, there is a reason why very few of the many amulet/rune combinations are used. People play celestial because they want to win, and in your post you basically admit that someone who uses celestial their skill doesnt matter as much as long as their opponents are not playing celestial. That is just an unbalanced and unhealthy game period. While there should be easier builds in every game, no pvp experience should be this unbalanced. And unbalanced game mode is bad for everyone, because when good players abuse the meta its just as bad or worse for casual players who abuse the meta. There should be diversity, anyone can play as they want and if they are willing to learn and get good at what they play they should get good results. Its why we have a balance team in this game, because that is how games strive to be. And if a player wants to abuse a broken build that their opponent can not kill, that they don't even have to try or learn any skills to win with, what is the difference between that and open world? Is it a fake ego of feeling like you are good because you beat another player? I just dont get it.
What I'm *really* hearing in this video is, "you don't need cele to be viable solo roaming - you just need to learn how to play thief, virt, wb or sb"
Do you think WvW (both zerging and roaming) will be in a better place if all stat combos that don't exist in PvP are removed in WvW as well?
Meaning no concentration or expertise, every piece of gear will include some offensive stat (meaning Nomad is also gone) and defensive stats should be minor stats. Maybe some stat combos from core Tyria such as Soldier can be kept.
bro why you guys listen to vallun XD valun is the equivalent of hadi in roaming world xD
Good vid - much more representative of the sentiments of the roaming community I’ve encountered rather than being *told* what is “right”
It's not just the fault of Cele gear, it's that Anet is using the law of diminishing returns on many stats, especially for healing, condi, toughness, expertise, concentration, etc. Cele provides just enough benefit in each category that the points it puts in healing, for example, give you more healing per point spent than Minstrels because you already have a base amount of healing per the skill being used. If all stats were such that a heavier investment in one particular stat started giving you exponentially more benefit, we'd see fewer Cele builds. The other issue is how every type weapon or class skill gives you multiple benefits wrapped into one skill, for example Staff 2 on Renegade both heals and damages, or Shortbow 2 with power and condi damage, it only makes sense to want to buff both related attributes. If more skills were single purpose, you might again see heavier investments in fewer stats, meaning fewer Cele builds. Because Anet designed their skill system so that everyone can be a jack of all trades, providing strike damage, condi damage, healing, buffs, etc, then it is no wonder Cele ends up being the jack of all trades solution.
Remember launch and signet of malice heals on condi ticks,? Crit on mug , crit on back stap, dead. Or 100% faster pistol whips with original quickness? Instant dead is no fun, neither is a perpetual stalemate. The most out of balance issues are fixed first. Hasn't Celey existed since launch? and even got an upgrade? A major consideration is what are the players spending the most RL currency in game and bringing in the most revenue using? Has celey been an Ace in the Hole for 11 years that more people are just finding out about?
Thief players are extra salty cause they cant 2shot people and constantly cheese kills using an abosolutely broken mechanic like stealth and ooc anymore and have to put more effort in it.
Yes, it’s always got to be the people who don’t know how to fight a thief who defend such things as cele. How about this, you play thief against me and I’ll play something without stealth and let’s see if you beat me 😀 you in?
Not to mention every class dont gain their benefits while being full glass and using skills, sometimes a spec's inherent gameplay relies on them being specced into tanky gear to start seeing the benefits of the class.
In the ranger vs ren fight i can even without seeing the video could tell that ranger has upper hand unless rev builds for sustain gear balance. Its just theur mechanics and kits are imbalanced in same gear. It is not weird that as soon as he changed to cele he did much better and it is not because of cele specifically, he couldve used a mix of gear and could gain similar effect.
It is a simple minded thought that classes are balanced without gear in mind. Some classes need tanky gear to start showing their defense while some classes like ranger have sustain through skills and the benefits arevery straight up.
I can see how people will not understand these dynamics because it is too much of a thought process for them.
@@NoodyThe idea that you need me specifically to show you the same in person is a caveman level of logic.
At least it is coherent with your other takes.
Other than the insult exchange, I want to mention here because i missed it in the second reply. I do think some of the skills and their modifier are broken, for example some of the ranger and rev heal modifiers are broken, which scale insanely with cele gear giving you the idea that the re sustain is insane because of cele. No, it would be broken on any heal build because the mods are broken. Similarly there are some base condi duration that are insane on some classes, followed by condi dmg and duration with cele suddenly become outrageous.
@@xecor4450I’m asking for you to try to demonstrate your point in a duel because you won’t be able to do it and perhaps that will allow you to realise that your thief hate is more due to the fact you don’t know how to fight it. Play it against a thief main like me and regardless of what I am playing you won’t be able to succeed because I know how to fight against it.
Few second fights are not skill tho either. Wow i 1-2shot some im so experienced 0.1% player.
There is a flaw with your "perfect example" renegade clip... The renegade doesn't just swap to power gear, he also changes his build. Looks like he swaps traitlines from Invocation+salvation to invocation+retribution.
No, it was the same build actually. His mistakes just were punishable this time so he wasn't able to utilize the build the same way he could with celestial.
@@Noody You can clearly see that in the first clip is has the "Unyielding Devotion" buff, generates barrier, loses conditions when he dodges, and doesn't have "Dome of the Mists" when he uses his heal. In the second clip he has the Dome when he uses shiro heal, doesn't have "Unyielding Devotion" and no barrier.
The reason im guessing invocation is because the missing "Expose Defenses" buff, stacking swiftness, the refresh on fury when he switches stances and he gains a bit of barrier when he switches to dwarf.
They give too many stats, but to me there's something glamorous about celestial builds, the idea of having every stat is just romantic. Part of the issue is the general synergy every class has with every stat, maybe ANet should consider nerfing toughness/vit/healing power and leave the damage as it is? I think that might be an enjoyable compromise
fax
I love you.
I feel like the problem with celestial gear is that there are some classes that are just way over tuned, and then when you slap on celestial gear it just amps it up even more. Big damage isn't always the decider in fights by any means but a skilled player using celestial gear vs another skilled player running pure power gear the celestial will more than likely win. Not because the power player wasn't good though, more or less because they couldn't burst through the sustain celestial provides on top of other bonuses.
You cam burst trough anyting ^^ but noone plays builds that can
@@RYS_YT I main power vindicator, or any kind of rev in general really. I'd rather drag my bare sack across hot asphalt than 1 v 1 a celestial harb that actually knows how to play.
Xd yee same but still you or I can melt trough that its hard im not saing its ez but you can do it
@@RYS_YTThe question is not if it's possible but if it's balanced. Appropriate. Acceptable. You could also *theoretically* win a 1v20 without wearing armor, doesn't mean that people shouldn't wear armor anymore once they're solo against 20 enemy players.
@@plumtd well ofc its unbalanced and i will not stop maken videos playing full power and fight cele untill its gone out of the meta but it will never be because they want to carry new players so they stick to the game and spent money. Thats why if you level up to 80 you instantly get a full exo set of cele
WUT FUK Celestial is unbalance OK ! i still hate more on TRAILBLAZERS xD buggerz tank and send condis and tank and condis and REPEAT! >xD
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You know, take any game, specially Pokemon and check if really the sum of total stat points makes a character good by its total or the distribution on it. I said it before and I say it again Cele is ok, if it would be so good everyone should run Cele which doesn't happen, most people will tell you to go for other combinations. The issue is they play a build they don't know how to make it work against some cele builds which are a little tankier than a glass cannon. Jack of all trades and master of none, that is Celestial and only few classes with specific builds are good with it.
You compared GW2 with pokemon, comparing two games that have nothing in common with their combat systems.
@@Noody Not comparing the games themselves but the argument about how mathematically a stat sum is not meaning of strength on a build or combination overall.
A healthy balance sees build come and go. With the current gw2 situation no matter what traits u nerf or whatever change u make, cele stays on top and it has been for a very long time.
My cele Harb and Weaver were insanely good against many people. I won a lot of fights I probably shouldn't have because of the increased toughness and healing power.
ur weaver toughness is 300 less in 80lvl by being ele when you compare to heavy armor classes
@@dopractitioner Yea but if you run Cele gear over Zerker or marauder you get a bunch of toughness and your damage is still good enough for 1vX in many cases.
Your comment is a complete non-sequitur
I definitely do think Cele is too strong, and that people stating that it "not doing any damage" is very overexaggerated. Of course there are plenty of overperforming power builds out there, and in general there are a ton of balance outliers that exist in WvW, but these things being true doesn't invalidate the notion that Cele simply brings too much to the table. I don't want to see it deleted from the game, but there are things they could do to tone it down without destroying it for PvE players. A simple stat reduction could work, but I am not a huge fan of the idea. Perhaps Cele could be split into different stat sets so there is at least some choice involved. Maybe one without toughness to make it squishier, one like old Cele without concentration/expertise but with like 10-15% higher values, etc.
Kinda putting down a couple answers to other comments here. Feel free to debate:
I agree with rofl123mao request asking what were the list of points discussed in that so called council? that no one knows about (no offense). In this video I only heard this guy saying subjective arguments and comparing his own fights. Where are the numbers? and facts? Tell me "we have datamined 10k fights using arcdps we have seen that these x skills are being the most used and their coefficients take that much percentage advantage compared to this others, and in 90% of the fights we determined that the difference between losing and winning was these benefited percentages and nothing else...." or something like that, cmon you cant just throw an statement saying it is op because i was killing him and now i cant... that lacks all seriousness. I wouldnt like to think that this is someone who is used to oneshot people on thief (or teleport-stealth escape when losing) and now is sad that people can actually escape him... I dont know this guy so im giving the benefit of doubt but some youtubers are under the impression that roaming is synonym of hit and run, rinse and repeat... which anet dev made that statement? oh thats right, none... nowhere in the game you will see any hint of how it should be played. You can roam with anything you want, and if your strategy is to go full berserker scholar with writs and one shot people with deadeye rifle, soulbeast longbow, dragonhunter traps, then do it... if your strategy is to play basically a support tank and wait for the squishy berserker to run out of ammo, go ahead... and if your strategy is to play something in the middle, thats also good... Is very biased by people playing high mobility builds to think that they are allowed to tap on enemies and assess if they wanna fight or leave, but then think that other players without that mobility cant do the same with a different set of attributes.
Another person commented that fast and good execution should be more rewarding than tanking through a fight, my opinion is:
i disagree, this is not a shooter game where faster trigger wins. Strategy is important here, and part of the strategy is choosing what counters your enemies. Your subjective desire is not different than someone saying exactly the opposite. Not that i agree with what im going to say, but i could rant saying that "the game shouldnt be about who has better pc processor, graphic card and ping latency and can react faster, it should be about the strategy and decisions". I stand on a neutral ground and i think players can have multiple different builds in their tabs, and they can easily disengage change build and go back to their objective, be it a building capture or an enemy kill. It has to be the players who evolve to counter obstacles, not the game having to adapt to particular desires of particular groups of people.
i personally think that some of the top end damage needs to be bought down and condi builds all need to be shit on because conditions actively ruin the game, they should be secondary supplemental damage not a main damage source zergs in WvW are boring as hell because you don't have to fight its just whoever drops better wells, there's nothing entertaining about being in a fight and then suddenly dying because theres 500 condis on you.
What about permastealth thief with countless dodges/evades, is that balanced/interactive ?
So you done the vallun approach, "My thing is allowed to be broken because that thing is broken" bro balance both. But quite frankly, a new player can play cele and get carried by the build. Give a new or less experienced player perma stealth thief and I (as well as many others) will dominate them. You can cry all you like about permastealth thief but its most likely because you don't know how to fight against it.
Skill issue. You just need good timing vs thief and know when to use your abilities (Some abilites are animation locked after the evade). Also knowing how a thief stealths around smoke field is important.
this exactly
PVP is a mess anyways...
Utility effects, Might and Fury generation are more than enough to make up for the damage loss caused by Celestial gears. That said, this only affects roaming. In team battles, timing, terrain, resource management and siege utilization still wins the match.
I think Asmongold said it right: The only people who take PvP in video games seriously are those playing it.
Isn’t this also just a personal rant? Love your videos but your first line is about how vals video is a personal rant, then continue to rant about his video. Nothing was really said in this video, no break downs with statistics or anything, just another personal rant video. I do agree with your points but damn this was basically a reaction video to valluns video 😂
There are class counters that beat cele within a solid number of 1v1 situations, after MFC1 i am pretty convinced now that power reaper beats cele reaper the majority of the time. Also, I feel like it isn't so much of a nerf cele thing but more of a Buff the specific classes getting steamrolled by cele thing.
The skill gap was prob more in play than the builds
@@larix534 hee hah easy to say
based 💯
as a casual player i joint wvw, tried it 2-3 month, and gave up on it. its zero rewarding and NONE of the socalled youtube PRO best of the best player tips didnt show any difference in gameplay. thats just the sad reality of the majority of players i guess. and i am considering myself even one of those with enough patience to get thru the first 2-3 weeks. i tried all of the cracks imba wvw builds wiht not one chance to learn anything from it due to being roflstomped everywhere or roflstomp others everywhere. when i check damage taken or damage done its mostly taken, as an example 3000 hits while making like 500 or 32 condi ticks? something like that...sometimes i do far more dmg on a ranger build, but with no meaningful consequences at all...no pressure nothin...enemy just runs a bunch of yards and refills or resets himself - if he even needed to, cos most players seem to have the overall mode on: no dmg taken, big dmg made and no downtime on cc skills ...i dont see any horizon of learning comin anytime soon tbh. and i havent even noted all UNNECESSARY wvw quirks or routines that makes the game just annoying and theres also no horizon in sight to get fixed.
i completely agree. celestial is a cancer in wvw that has existed for way too long. it just rewards passive play (through super high uptime on boons, lots of condi damage and excessive sustain) without a single downside to it. hell, even the power damage gets excessively high since a lot of builds can easily maintain 25 might. whoever thinks cele is fine simply wants to stomp everything and never die and pat themselves on the back for doing so. i'm not saying they need to remove the prefix, but they need to nerf the amount of raw stats it gives. vallun is coping because he wants to feel op.
The massive downside you're ignoring is that if you're running a power build with all power traits, and you go from zerker to cele, you are gimping your burst. No two ways about it. Go try it out.
@@keats27 why would go full power traits if you're playing cele though? that's just not a smart way to create a build
@@notsussertod True, but most of the builds you find specify the style, and you get gear for that style...you can choose not to play the top builds, but the point is, if you know what you're doing dps-wise, you have three choices. Full power, full condi, hybrid...and from what I've seen the top builds for pvp are almost always full power...they do so much dps that the meh Cele heals/toughness/vitality just don't stand a chance--which is why the full power builds are normally the meta for pvp/wvw--at least on all the build sites I know of. Noody is saying that's not the case, but my experience is that it has been, and that's seemingly what the majority of the community will tell you too. Berserker > Cele for big burst ganking. Cele is great for trying things out and pve.
Time to get serious....if you know what you're doing, celestial is cringe. CRINGE If you don't, run Cele. Here's what I want you to do. Take a zerker set. Test your dps vs a dummy. Then, run the same set with cele. Cele isn't forgiving if you don't know how to use it. If your build is a power build, and you're running cele, you are dumb. If you are running a pure condi build, and you're running cele, you're dumb. If you're running cele, no matter your guild, and you run into someone with 4k power running a power build...RIP. The better you get at this game, the less cele is desirable.
Thia is just a rant video from one streamer flaming the other lol, not everyone is a pro player and balacing towards the 0,1% is not the beat solution
Vallun and his "gf" Karen Jen just think they are the top 1 and that their opinion is the only one (their responses to the comments on Vallun's video say it all) Even though a lot of people wrote him a nice comment, but only with their opinion, they are immediately under attack by the delusional duo - so their video was simply presented as fact from "experts".
Vallun forgot that he's the one who mostly cries constantly on streams, or as he cried a few times on a lot of videos when someone killed him and made a video on it, but he still thinks how is he above all. So if you don't agree with their opinion that cele is okey then you're just bad even if you kill both of them with any build (there are enough videos on yt of Karen/Vallun being farmed even when they play cele and cry for help.
Chief wrote a very good comment on why cele need nerf.
Once me and Juzy killed him too when he was on Tour on EU. After that i heard from a friend that he called us Streamsniper,lol. But we where not even on twitch.
The weird part was how celestial was already arguably over tuned and then they added conc and exp stats on top of the other 7 stats. So to start, they could revert that.
It had to be said 🤷♂
I think Cele is over tuned... but as long as everyone has access to it, it isn't broken. (I do like @RunicMjolnir's solution.)
Celestial has been the same for years though, for most of that time it’s been considered a bad stat for anything other than open world or WvW roaming. I think that’s the reason why they should leave it alone… I mean the stat set only has one competitive use and that is roaming. Roaming isn’t even an intended “game mode” just something that people enjoy for the challenge of it. 98% of players elite or not just won’t even be impacted by celestial stats, but yeah let’s nuke celestial for the roamers…
if celestial only matters to roamers and open world players then itd be perfectly fine to nuke the stats to make roaming a better experience. You could even ONLY nuke it in wvw so it would only affect the roamers which as you said are the only people affected by it ...
@@Nefrassio I also said that it’s like 200 people or so that really do roaming at the level where cele matters. Why would they change that?
@@Oneofthecoments pvp is only played by a few hundred players at a high level too and anet still listens to those when it comes to pvp balance.
The Cele Meta and homogenization of builds in roaming is a massive issue for everyone in wvw that doesnt zerg.
If you personally arent affected by it then let the people who are affected by it voice their opinion and change it.
Idk, Noody. I cannot really agree with you.
Cele is strong, yes. But is it broken? No. Better players can be much more effective on speciallised high risk/high reward builds (still not zerker tho). And something like this is necessary on a lot of high populated servers. I for one have to fight multiple enemies just as often if not more often than dueling 1v1. There is basicly no chance of winning against 2 players of similar exp, which is why celestial is fine in that regard because it at least makes you tanky enough to run/kite away.
Dueling others in celestial gear often ends up in a draw with neither side being able to kill another, because the damage isnt as stellar.
I do not think the fights should end faster than in 30 s. I find it more fun if i fight and die after minutes of dueling and have to run back for 3 min than if i die in 10 s and have to still run back for 3 min.
Also I noticed that some builds tend to have better fighting chances against celestial builds than against their burstier counterparts. For example celestial soulbeast is better against 8 of the 9 classes than sic em variant, but really really struggles against daredevils while the bursty variant can pressure the dd enough for thief to actually have to care 🤷♂️
So I dont think that one niche activity (WvW roaming is a niche activity, at least on my servers) being quite dominated by jacks of all traits while still having space for specialised high risk high reward builds is as problematic as so many ppl shout it to be. 🤷♂️
An addition: rather then nerfing celestial we should maybe tone down some of the specs that might utilise it too well, would be more reasonable position imo? 🤷♂️
Holy based
Oh brother this guy complaining about cele again…
Healing power and toughness need to be remove from celestial and tune down boon duration mayb that will make it ok...just mayb
You got 20 ppl together that agreed on a nerf. You actually supported his point about only the elite player crying about it.
Their are millions of player that play this game. 20 ppl is such a small sample size, even if you boasted the numbers to 10-15% of the player base, that would still be the top tier player only really having an issue with something in the game.
Yeah totally, even though 99% of the comments on this video also agree. But yes, totally only the elitists..
@@Noody Its also like the elitists, the best players in the game who know more than anyone else, would also be the best players to speak on balance? Nah that can't be it, its not like when a build like pve dps catalyst is op ONLY in the hands of elitist top players it gets nerfed or anything...
@@Noody 99?
Cele isn’t overpowered.
It doesn’t excel at anything, it just a jack of all trade stats.
Should it be nerfed, no. If you just want to cry about it, nerf the damage by 10% or toughness by 10%.
That's fine. Just lower total points to equal 3 stat armor. I would have no issue with this
@@tpak819 that would literally make the cele stats worse than a big pile of shit xD
Not even kidding...it would a completly hilarious thing to see.
i would take a pile of shit to fight, rather than a celestial thing like that xD
it would do 0 dmg, and it would have 0 defence.