How STRONG are French Cleats? The Results Will Surprise You!
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 29 มิ.ย. 2022
- Many people keep asking, How strong are French Cleats?
We will try to answer that question.
I will be testing out 5 common types of material for a good comparison.
Please share this video with anyone who could benefit.
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WOW! I can't believe that you didn't tear your right ear off during this testing. Amazingly strong and more than any load that I would be putting on a French Cleat.
Once the MDF and OSB were eliminated, those last three choices were all close enough to be within the range of experimental error. If you did 10 tests with each (ideally using wood from different batches each time) and took the average, any one of them could have come out on top. It's also worth noting that neither type of plywood actually failed; in both cases, it was the connection to the 2x4 that failed. Thus, it is reasonable to assume that if you had increased the gluing surface and/or used more screws, they could have supported more load than you could have added with that lever, while a similar adjustment to the solid wood wouldn't have made any difference because it was the wood itself that failed.
They were all pretty impressive, so I guess one can just use whatever is available. I will use the birch plywood because I already use a lot of that in my shop and I can use up my off-cuts.
That was a good test of the shear strength of the connection, and bending/shear of the actual cleat on the wall. Just a reminder that if you added some moment-arm distance (applied load distance away from the wall), you'll quickly see your breaking forces decrease considerably. Now your cleat on the wall will see bending & shear forces, but also twisting forces from the moment-arm. This twisting will apply a horizontal load onto the 45 degree portion of the cleat, in addition to the vertical load. This will also tend to want to 'pull out' the screws from the wall quicker due to a coupling force caused by the horizontal reactions. I would expect the screw connection to fail sooner than the cleat failing. Might be an interesting 2nd video :)
You have a bunch of good points there. I agree that the screw connection would probably start to fail before the wood broke, unless the wood has some imperfections.
I would think the joint holding the object would be the weak-point, and would break before the cleat-backing joint.
@@Luke-qc1rm Not necessarily. Depends on how well it's designed/built. Also, keep in mind that the load this test is using to test the strength of a cleat could be distributed over several tool holders, each adding weight to a section of cleat. Each tool holder can handle it's own tool weight, but then apply several to the cleat and you can get an overall failure at the cleat-backing joint.
If you do another video most french cleats have small spacers on the bottom to prevent forward deflection. Basicly just another piece of the same material on the bottom of the piece that hooks into the cleat. Keeps the cleat from leaning forward
Good points! This was all shear, but I think most people use them with loads that do not stick out very much, so it's pretty close to actual usage. I think a 3" wide 3/4" cleat will hold my cordless drill and clamps without worry. Now if you want to build shelves for table saws and cabinets, that would have more bending, but you would attach to more than one row of cleats to share the loads as well. I would be interested in rematch with a double cleat with maybe a 12" deep shelf with triangle gussets under it.
Glad you didn’t’ get hurt! Keep’ ‘‘em coming. I just recently built my clear wall. Still building tool holders.
Great video. I've been using french cleats for about a year now in my metalworking machine shop - pine cleats onto plywood screwed into battens against a brick wall. Got some heavy stuff up there including lathe chucks and a metal machinist's cabinet full of tools. I always wondered when/if something was going to give, but pretty confident now. Greetings from the UK.
So glad this could give you a little bit more confidence.
What a cool test. Thanks for putting it all together. I just couldn’t help but think oh my gosh he’s going to get hurt this time. Glad you came away unscathed
Thanks Chris. I did get hit in the head once but fortunately it was not that bad. But you probably are correct and I should have worn a hardhat.
@@SpecificLove7and goggles. 😉
That was awesome! I’m revamping my entire workshop and a big question on my mind was, “what should I make my French cleats out of?” Thank you for this video it was super helpful!
Who is going to be hanging 500-600 lbs between two studs on a wall? Great test, but it just proves to me that any of these materials would work in a shop.
My first thought during the analysis of first test - it’s 600lbs!!!
Yep, my thoughts too. I'm using osb wall with pine board as the cleats. Don't think I'll have any problems especially since this test showed only 1 cleat which is a lot of stress of one specific so spot
I really needed this. I'm making a 6 foot tall by 4 feet wide solid oak, live edge pot and pan hanger. Been worrying over how strong a hanger I need. The oak weighs close to 200 lbs. 😮. This makes me feel far more at ease.
Who could lift the 200+kg onto the wall in the first place?! All materials, absolutely fine for this application.
@@ClarkyClark Keep in mind that this experiment is loading parallel and very close to the cleat. The dynamics are going to change dramatically when you hang something that sticks out from the wall. Now you need to start worrying about separation failures that occur perpendicular to the wall.
Awesome, awesome video! Smart to have a disclaimer, but these are generally useful results. This was definitely worth a sub. Request for a follow up: repeating these tests with 1/2 material (assuming you haven’t already - going to look for it now). 👍👍
Great demo. Thanks a lot. Best,
Awesome video! Really useful thanks for doing this test!
Great video I’ve always wondered which material makes the best cleat
Nice video. Should be required watching for people setting up their first cleat wall. I would like to see the some tests with differing wood thicknesses however to determine how much more a 3/4" cleat can hold compared to say an 1/2" cleat.
Thank you. That would be a nice comparison.
Birch plywood should hold up the best with osb doing the worst.
So glad you did this test, I was worried about which wood species I was using in my garage. I have a lot of mystery lumber and glad to hear all of them can handle at least 200 kgs
Quite an excellent demonstration..!!!
Great testings !!! Very usefull
Very helpful video.
Great video. Just starting out. Thanks.
Thanks for this test. I don't have a shop of my own at all so far, but I think about getting French cleats having one one day.
Having a look on the result I cannot see why MDF or OSB should be avoided. They also hold way more weight than what will be attached to the cleats from my point of view. It will come down to personal preference in the end, I suppose.
Great Channel, I alread learned a lot - including practicing a foreign language.
Greetings from Germany
I enjoy your videos each time i watch them, i would like to know if you have a video for when you put up your pvc pipe dust collector in your garage. In the future i may have my own little shop like yours to do some of your projects for example maybe French cleats or even the dust collection system
This is great stuff. Thanks for doing the research.
Glad it helped you
Thanks so much!! I was trying to figure the best cost effective material for thr cleat wall. And will go wish OSB. Not sure if I'll ever get close to 200 lbs but again thanks for the informative information.!!
Awesome :) Thanks for risking your noggin for us!
Excellent video! I am about to embark on finishing the inside of my wood shop/shed. First thing a had to remove was the short 2x4’s that is had stick lumber on. I’ll really miss that feature. Then I wondered how much weight will the cleats hold and could I add that lumber holding to the cleat system. With your results I’m confident I can add a small section to replace my lost holder. Thanks so much for this info! I’m off to look at more of your videos, lots of good info there I see.
Great video, and awesome note on the MDF in a non-climate controlled building.
Great idea
What I've learned is that it almost doesn't matter what I use. It'll probably be fine. I've used a lot of OSB for my cleats, but I don't hang overly heavy stuff. I seal and paint my OSB cleats. I like doug fir for cleats holding anything really heavy. Had a wall bow out on me from weight but the doug fir cleats were still just fine.
awesome comparisons. I use OSB and of course, I'm not hanging 500 pounds of gear on one holder, and my holders with any weight aren't 3" wide. I find that for my needs, OSB is great, and since it's currently half the cost of regular plywood, I can afford to organize my tools.
Nice tests comparison. I'm leaning toward the pine boards vs plywood for ease of handling, etc. But might also point out that 500lbs hanging on a single 3" wide cleat is highly unlikely. Who is going to build a 500lb bracket and then try to hang it?
Correct. I would be think more as to how the wall bracket was adhered to the bricks, concrete, plasterboard, etc, than the actual cleat.
I thoroughly enjoy the petite errors kept in the vid 👌
Grandma woodworker here, this was a great demo for French cleats. I was a bit worried about your head in the process! I was shocked how much a small area could take and I can only Imagine what a larger piece could hold.
By the way are you aware of a product called Armorite Exterior MDF? It is ideal for outdoor applications and is manufactured with a formaldehyde-free resin and proprietary biocidal treatment process for rot and insect resistance. I just can't find it anywhere except down south. Have you used it? It would be a great demo! Thank you for all you do. Your demo was a lot of work! It is appreciated!
I have not heard of that MDF before, but it does sound interesting.
And I only got hit in the head hard once, but fortunately I have a hard head. 🙂
Thank you for the video! I am guessing for the everyday tools in a garage workshop, it probably doesn’t matter which type of wood to use as not many tools will generate 300 lb of shearing force?
On the other hand if one is using French cleat system to hang cabinets (ie. Kitchen cabinet) then the type of wood may be more important.
Thanks again for this video!
Glad it could help you!
Great target stand too.
Guessed right on plywood. Dont know whats birch so i just picked them both. My opinion came from a fact that as they are wood sheets glued together they had strongest bond. After watching few videos this system looks very nice. 20kg is max weight i need so i guess anything works for me. Thanks for fun interesting video
Not just wood sheets, but wood sheets with grain alternating. It cuts down on fiber separation that the plain boards had, although the level that happens at is still higher than what folks will generally put on a clear (never say never 😉).
I didn't think the plain pine would have been as strong as it was!
I literally built another slice of wall with this today - birch ply.
Very useful test! Thanks! I was starting the design of a french cleat (I never been used it) wall on my new workshop. What are the best practices to build it? I will use plywood but I don't know what is the best dimensions to do this. Can you help me about this?
1- Distance between 2 wall wooden slat
2 - thickness of the wood
3 - maximum size of each wooden slat
4 - recommended height of each wooden slat
🙏🙏Thanks a lot to help me! I'm a very big fan of all your french cleat ideas/projects! 🙏🙏
I will give you some quick answers but if you look at the playlist I mentioned in the video it should provide more in-depth information.
1. The distance between the French cleats is totally up to you as long as you can get the holders in and out easily.
2. The thickness of French cleats is usually recommended to be 3/4 of an inch.
3. The max size of a French cleat is up to you but I always recommend having them tall enough to put two screws into each stud.
4. As for the height, you can install French cleats as high as you would like as long as you can safely add and remove holders.
Hope that helps.
Interesting video. Thank you the time and $ it took to create it. If I’m being honest when I started watching I’m like getting flashes of Project Farm. If your not familiar with that channel he does lots of test on products that are very interesting as well. I, like others, am glad you didn’t appear to get hurt….unless of course you don’t post anything for a while and your next video is how to create while recovering from hernia surgery! Lol.
Thank you. I follow Project Farm, he has some great stuff. It is an honor to compare that video to his.
Great video. Thank you for taking the risks of these tests for us because I surely wouldn’t have wanted to.
Thank you, We are glad you found it helpful.
Thanks for a useful demonstration. For me, the takeaway was "Don't ever hang even a couple hundred pounds on French cleats!" I'm getting along in years and I can't lift weights anywhere near those breaking points.
An awesome video that everyone should see. I am curious how a longer tool holder cleat would do which has more screws in it. Maybe like 6, 9, or 12inch. It’s possible you might not even be able to make it fail by your hand crank. I’m not sure!? Would be interesting to watch.
The amount of weight I had to put down on the small 3-inch cleat leads me to believe that I probably would not be able to easily break a much larger piece. So I will leave that test to somebody else 🙂
@@SpecificLove7 Yep, It would have to be something motorized to test that I think.
@@SpecificLove7 Do you think a 12 inch tool holder cleat would correlate to 4x more weight? I suppose at some point the screws in the studs could fail...
having previously watched project farm videos. I had a feeling they were gonna hold more weight than you expected.
Please test Trex and update, since some folks are starting to use it. Thanks.
Thanks for this interesting test! A couple of observations from an amateur: a thicker cleat could hold more weight and if the length were equal along the contact surfaces, the cleat could also hold more weight???
Hey I’m curious about using solid wood instead of glued or screws like half lap a board with the 45
I think this test would show much improved results if there were a small block of wood at the bottom of the cleat. Then the pull would be straight down as opposed to any angle in/outwards.
I'm wanting to mount a 12-16" x72" black walnut board on a wall for my Husband as a worker space ledge. He'd only be using a keyboard and leaning to type, so not a lot of weight. I'm doing this as a live edge. Wanted to ask if a French cleat would work to mount this? And if so, would I need to route out the live edge flat side so the hanging part attached to the live edge would allow it to sit flush once mounted?
Great video, thanks! Would have been nice to have seen a summary of the numbers. If the OSB can take well over 200KG, surely that's enough for 99.99% ?
Love that opening!!! lol
Thank you
What about using solid knotted pine boards?
Great video and just what I was looking for. Based on your findings, how much weight would you estimate a 3m long French cleat would hold - fixed into 6 places?
Just remember that every piece of wood and every piece of plywood are a little different, so there is a variable on how much each one can hold, but overall as you saw in the video, as long as you attach them correctly, they should be able to hold a lot of weight.
Woo! Seeing it in Kg was awesome haha
thanks I will keep using plywood. enjoy your viedios
Great tests!
Can i ask what size screws you used? And did you use the same size to mount the cleats to the wall, as you used to build the hangers?
I used two and a half inch long screws and made sure the cleats on the wall were the same size as a cleats on the mount.
Nice so with the board items the force needed is about 500 pounds, over your cleat of 3.5 inches (holder)
to put that in perspective you could just about hang a V-8 engine block. Even more weight if you space the weight over a area.
That is definitely one way to look at it 🙂
Thanks for the visual of how this scales up
I’m going to be hanging a 8’ foot wooden flag made w 4x4’s - with the material removed for the waves and added on the frame made w 1x6’s I figure about 350-400 pounds - was worried I may need to go w a metal cleat but looks like good ol lumber should work
So if your French cleat system is the cabinet width, the last three choices will all perform well in a standard kitchen cabinet. that is good to know because it then comes down to an economic choice.
Thanks, definitely a huge question that needed some data. Hundreds of pounds and most of the failure came from, as I see it, the 2x4 glue and fastner.
… okay, there is no way I am putting that much weight on such a small cleat. Also If I have concerns I will likely put the tool at a stud or span 2 cleats.
No matter what plywood french cleats with reasonable loads are not going anywhere.
Now more agressive joinery, bigger screws, perhaps a dado or rabbet may be in order when attaching the cleat to the back of the tool holder for something much heavier, not even sure what that might be.
In most cases not needed for single tool holders. I suppose if I can pickup up the tool holder with tool on it without much effort there is no need do more than glue and reasonable fasteners.
Very well said!
how come surprse your useing chip board dck hd
Hey in order to compare the actual cleat on the wall, it needs to fail, not the connections. In the cases where the cleat remained fine, you really tested the strength of the cleat connection (glue and screws) to the piece of 2x4. Such as the Birch, it's failure is somewhere higher force to get to failure. You could look up the sheer strength of various wood materials in some construction charts.
I did enjoy watching
You are definitely correct. I was just glad to show everyone that French cleats can hold a lot of weight over a variety of wood types.
My god that was so dangerous to have your head there LOL! Good test
Surprisingly I only got hit hard once.
Note: MDF is the one that the board attached to the wall failed where the others it was the cleat failing. Repair of the wall side could be done on one of the plywood ones with wax paper and glue and bring it back to a more serviceable condition. In the heading of 'right tool for the job' lets keep in mind here that north of 300# on a 3" cleat is a lot of weight. A 100# barbell plate is about 18" diameter and 3" thick. If your hanging cabinets for someone who uses weight plates as dinner plates you would hit those numbers.
I suppose if you were storing metal stock for a machine shop you might hit those numbers but for the average home gamer hanging up kitchen cabinets or a drill/impact driver, a skill saw and a couple of bicycles so you can drive the car in to the garage; any of the plywood ones would be over engineering but suitable.
Would the pine 2x4 be better if the two screws were offset instead of drilled in-line along the grain which would weaken that area?
For as little weight that are on my FC, I would not be considered
Nice Testing. Thanks. Have a GREAT 4th of July.
#STAYSAFE
#PHILLYPHILLY 🇺🇸
Thank you Dennis, have a happy 4th
I’m looking to build a wall-mounted arcade unit. It weighs about 40 to 45 pounds or so. However because of my car that i have. I can only get 1/2 inch mdf 2x4 foot sheets .Would half inch MDF be enough to hold 50 pounds
Can you use Maple??
So suffice to say plywood cleats would easily hold up a 140x70cm solid wood desk? Always wondered how they would cope with torque due to the desk being quite extended from the wall.
Do you recommend the use of a plywood backer board on the wall or is cleats just screwed to the studs over drywall acceptable? And in this situation, what would be your choice? TIA
if it is already up, Drywall is fine as long as your French Cleats are attached directly to the studs. If by chance you are in the process of attaching walls two studs in your garage or workshop, I would recommend either plywood or OSB since it is less likely to get holes in it from bumping it with your tools.
@@SpecificLove7 The dry was installed when the house was built 2 years ago. It only has basis tape and mudding and no paint so the surface is not as flat as I would prefer. That is the main reason that I am asking about adding a sheet of plywood before attaching the cleats. Thanks for all your help. Bob Ivey
If you don't have a balcony, you could attach a temporary one with French cleats, right? At least, you could put your office desk outside in the summer..
Just remember that OSB can swell if it gets wet, thus becoming much weaker
Hardwood or metal attacked to studs and cabinets box walls (sides, top and bottom, not into the cabinet back panel) with framing screws (designed for sheer strength).
What about lateral breaking, like if you had an arm and added the load side to side? I'm designing a variable hight wall mounted desk. French Cleat seems sturdy but the adjustability is a bit limited... then I thought about mounting the wall slats vertically and having the cleats more like a train car on the vertical track allowing it to slide up and down the track/slat/wall freely. Then maybe put some pin/holes to lock the height... My question for you would be the strength of the cleat twisted sideways, do you think it would fail lower than ~400lbs?
This would definitely be less than 400.
In your case you would be pulling the thin side instead of the long side. I'm not sure what the weight would be but it would be much less
@@SpecificLove7 care to wager a guess? Like half the force? I was basically planning to do a double sided slat (both edges 45angles) with cleats around it which might double the strength. Then I was also thinking of making it double thick (two layers of plywood) in hopes of also increasing the strength. Then making two slats (like railroad tracks)... but then after all that, how well do you think it would slide? I was thinking of counter weight pulleys to make it travel up and down with less difficulty... but now its like 100lbs of wood and I'm thinking I should give up. Talk me down man!
@@SpecificLove7 Also, thank you for the great content!
@@ivanlawrence2 It's probably too late now, but what it sounds like is you are over-committed to a certain type of design and using it for stuff far outside it's specifications, and it's not a good idea tbh. There have to be other ways of mounting an adjustable desk, and when you turn a french cleat design sideways you are losing all the advantages that make it good for some things. And it's not good for a desk.
Thanks for your videos. There is now way I wold ever put something over 100lbs on a cleat. I don’t understand why no one uses 1/2 plywood. If 3/4 can hold over 500 lbs, 1/2 should do well up to 100 lbs which is the max anyone should ever try to put on a cleat.
If you are mounting stuff at any sort of distance, like the lumber racks, which SLC has shown in other videos, the force is multiplied and has a lot of leverage acting with it.
Turn the pine holder 90 degrees. Unbreakable!!!
I don't think there's anything you would realistically attach to a 3" cleat or even a 12" or 24" cleat that would exceed its strength. I also use glue to aid in holding the cleat to the holder. I've used double full width cleats to hold cabinets to a wall. They could easily hold 500+ lbs.
Great test! Maybe wear a hard hat next time. Just to keep people less nervous. But for some they may like the intrigue while they nail bite, wondering if you will get hit in the head by a board. Cheers!
I will bet money with wider french cleat brackets the strength of the cleat goes way up especially from wall stud to wall stud for both bracket and wall cleat
my guess is the birch plywood!
Based on these results, I think 1/2” birch ply would be more than enough in most cases, unless you’re hanging cabinets or something.
Absolutely! He says he recommends 3/4" only but then shows that 3" will support 500+ pounds. I'm not looking to hang my table saw from a 3" french cleat so I'll keep using 1/2" like I have for years.
OMG! Who would ever put this much weight on a french cleat, anyways? So, what's the point?
What if you cut the pine cleat with the grain going in the other direction? I wouldn't use OSB or MDF for anything. Ever. Might as well use wet cardboard.
It held around 250KG in his experiment....
Great experiment! I was worried about the wrist/hand holding the weight gauge when those broken wood pieces accelerating downward very fast
Thank you for your concern, I tried my best to stay out of the way and only was hit one time.
Econo Winner: OSB at 3" by 3" = 250lbs safe, thats like 2x what you "should" be loading on "1 item hanging/sq ft" >> who is hanging 250lbs tools on a wall? (heavy = $$, where a fall could damage them?).
My only question is whether or not the wall simulation using MDF instead of sheet rock would have made a difference. Sheet rock seems to be more compressible than MDF and would allow the wall cleat to tilt outward under heavy loading. I really enjoyed this video!
Did you glue any of the cleats to the wall?
I only use screws through my French cleats making sure they fully reach the studs behind the wall.
Why not use spruce?
I would think a spruce board could be similar to pine if it has the same growth pattern and rings. But I have never compared the two.
Great Video. Bottom line is french cleat are strong. I know I dont have 500 lbs of tools to hang.
I'm guessing birch plywood will hold the most - now to hit play and find out.
The whole idea of french cleats in a woodworking shop is to easily rearrange the tool holders and to carry them to different areas of the shop as needed. No way I’m putting 400 or 500 pounds on the wall - probably 20 or 30 max. Seems like 1/2” ply should be just fine.
You can try 1/2" if you would like but I always recommend 3/4" for safety.
@@SpecificLove7 ya 1/2" may only hold like 200-300lbs, your drill may fall. Hahaha
Yikes, looks like a helmet might have been a good idea for these tests. 😳 I had feeling the pine construction plywood would be a top contender.
I have a feeling, the MDF would do better with three columns of screws 🙂
Maybe a little better, but it would probably still be the weakest.
Great video. Can I get you a hard hat?
LOL, It looked a lot more dangerous than it was, but thank you
Okay, I'm only 3:02 time in video. My guess is Burch plywood.
Came back and edited the comment from above.
Time now in video, 3:51 and I'm also guessing that the MDF will be the weakest.
I hope you liked the final results
@@SpecificLove7 Well that was unexpected and interesting. I didn't think OSB would fail the way it did. Or that it would be as weak, if not weaker then MDF. Also lol, I have no clue how I ended up spelling "Birch plywood". As "Burch plywood", on my last comment. lol. Woops.. I digress, Anyhow Clinton, well done on the video and, the idea, the setup, and so on man. Take it easy.
The failures on the 2 plywood were due to the screws pulling out of the pine attaching block. It was this block connection that failed, nothing to do with the cleats themselves...
You are correct but I do need to add that as the glue and screws failed they caused damage to the existing cleat which is something that needs to be kept in consideration.
Man I cringed every time things started cracking! The weight bearing properties of even the weakest wood tested is still pretty impressive.
Cannot believe you didnt have a little piece of wood on the bottom of the 2x4 to keep the forces vertical
That might help, but I wanted to keep this process similar to what most people would do it.
@@SpecificLove7 most People would do that if smart
@@troelsnielsen2848"If'
Answer: It depends on how strong you make therm.
my guess is birch plywood being the strongest
Birch then board
why not crank it from behind.. the faux wall.. save your head/hands incase something happens.
When you said there was no scientific basis for your tests......... you really weren't joking. Did it not occur to you to use an extender bar to help you apply a constant downward force as opposed to snatching at the lever and getting hit?
Thanks for the laughs though 🙂
Without being facetious at all, there isn’t a tool or box, or anything you could lift to hang on a 3 inch cleat, that would break it. On a 6 or 9 inch cleat,nothing at all.