Hi, I'm the guy who made the original tweet. Thanks for reading the followup tweets, and I think you bring up a really interesting point that I've also observed: how neutral and footsie-based gameplay is more prevalent in a game's early stages, when mechanics haven't yet been deconstructed and mastered, and the only thing you can really depend on is your fundamentals. Nowadays we have an even more interesting paradigm; when games are new, people lean back on neutral and footsies until they grasp the game's mechanics. But if the game lives long enough, you might even see the game literally evolve with the players; title updates and post-launch system changes will irreversibly change the way you approach a game that was originally played as a footsie game. People called me crazy when I said that SF5 was a footsie game, but that's because we only see SF5 in terms of Season 5 with characters like G or Poison or Akuma who can go absolutely ballistic; no one remembers Season 0 or Season 1 SF5. And we've seen this happen with different games like Tekken 7 and Guilty Gear Strive, how the game itself will introduce new mechanics that push players towards more aggressive play, and I find that it's a fascinating paradigm shift. Perhaps I chose my words poorly when I said "the age of footsies" or "the age of unga" because Twitter is awful and I only have 180 characters to express a complex thought. This tweet ended up starting so many fights that I never intended, when all I really wanted to say was "I think these new aggression-focused mechanics are neat".
So if that was what you intended to say - “aggression mechanics are neat” - then even if we put the blame on Twitter’s character limit, I think you would’ve been better served saying “entering an age of rushdown” than “an age of unga”. The term “unga” often is to “rushdown” what the term “projectile spam” is to “zoning”. Hopefully that makes sense. It’s generally implicitly a way of saying “this doesn’t require skill/strategy” which is how most people will interpret it. It doesn’t help that the term you contrasted it with carries the connotation of “something that requires skill/strategy.” Now, hindsight is 20/20 and I won’t say this is your fault - even if you meant it in a positive way, there were enough people who agreed with the unintended connotation of your tweet to make this a “thing” in the FGC. People in general often yearn for ways to express their feeling that “things were better before” and their desire for that to be true even though it isn’t.
No, I say stick by your words "age of unga". Justin gave great examples but characters like Vega in ST and Yun in 3S are exceptions to the rule. Now just about everyone in the cast can skip in this "age of unga", not just one or a small handful of characters like in the examples.
@@foyo5497 I don’t think it’s so much the framing of “entering the age of unga” that’s an issue, it’s the added juxtapositional framing of “ending the era of footsies and neutral.” Justin’s point was that the mechanics to play “unga” style have always coexisted with “footsies and neutral” and the fact that more games have rushdown-oriented system mechanics doesn’t mean neutral isn’t still crucial to those games nor does it equate to “the age of footsies and neutral is over” - it just means that the landscape of what modern footsies/neutral look like is evolving.
I’m 45 years old and was in the arcades playing these older games back in the day all through the 90’s. Justin is right that the gameplay was slower then. There were a lot of things we just didn’t know bc information was so hard to come by. You couldn’t lab situations. If you saw something you had never seen before from a player you just had to throw in your quarter and try to mimic it and hoped it worked out. The level of gameplay has def gotten way better than it was back then with the exchange of information on the TH-cam and discord and such. In my humble opinion I think the direction of fighting games is going in the right direction. Fighting games are more popular now than they have ever been bc of the crazy mechanics and systems that are common in fighting games now.
Agree that a big part of it is change in player knowledge, but I think there's also an aspect of player culture change. In the arcade days, you had some money on the line in every game, so playing more defensively was a natural response (due to how risk adverse the human brain tends to be). The rise of home online play in the last ~15 years has given people a lot more freedom to experiment and develop understanding of how to be aggressive effectively. Not to imply that there weren't aggressive players before (like Tokido, Ricki, Combofiend, etc.), but they were more the exception than the norm, in my experience.
People are framing it as neutral skip bad but I think the real disconnect is between pre baked and free form game design, a good example is the “ real tekken “ debate old characters have to use movement fundamentals and whiff punishing, new characters have built in mix on their string that feel like doa without the counter system.then they add rage, power crush and rage arts to completely bypass the old play style. Now even characters that are built for flashy combos don’t really feel expressive as they used to
My friend shown me even in GBVSR how important footie is. At first it's frustrating because I didn't understand why everything he does is plus, every move he used has better reach than mine, then he told me to stop running and learn to walk instead. That's when I realize every step he made in the game has purpose and it's always outside of my jab, while enough for his poke to reach me. Watching pro's match playing character like Metera/Narm sure taught me to pay attention at the distance they keep before throwing out move. Just because you can zip around the stage doesn't mean there is no neutral in the game. You just have to accept the fact that the neutral is much faster than older games. Throwing 2 fireballs and people already start getting into your face, as oppose to the fireball spam back in the day.
Honestly people myself included, fell In love with your infamous match 20 years ago against daigo. Thats where this myth came from. There are great instances of neutral and good footsies but the unga has always been there like you said.
He also said Unga Bunga were highlight with expert players during pandemic decades after the game came out. Now we have with street Fighter 6 Unga Bunga for everyone even beginners! without the skill you had to have in the old games.. 😥 Lowering the skill gap and making SF6 casino Fighter 6 The guessing game. Everybody play the same..
@michaelromeo9567 If that were true, randoms across the world would be winning tournaments left and right. Every winner or top 8 would be nothing but random poeple.
Wrong. Best players would be always best players even with crappy games. It's not because pro players continue towin that modern games are perfect . 🤷♀ Problem is significant with middle to average levels. It's completely broken. Even pro players are complaining about SF6. Even Daigo said that SF6 is designed that way , so new comers feel like they are good and they are not frustrated with skill gap. Punk is not completely crazy There are more robberies in SF6 than in previous SF games. The games is designed that way. It's more spectacular , scores is closer to 50/50 Situations are closer to 50/50 You will never see Scores like 10 to zero in Tokido VS Daigo matches like back in days. SF6 is designed to please casual players. How can you say that the skill level is not reduced on purpose like all these new mechanics in SF6..? Capcom doesn't care . They prefer money over legacy games like KOF , Tekken or Virtua Fighter 5.
@@michaelromeo9567 Well said my man. I think we can all agree that people are stealling rounds with those mechanics. You're fighting those mechanics most of the time, not your opponent. With even Daigo saying that the game is scrubby i don't understand why people keep defending the game.
One thing to note is that companies have made it clear why they are designing more for offense. Harada and the SF devs have both explicitly stated that more offensive games are being made because they are easier to get into and more exciting for a spectator to watch. People can pretend they're some enlightened god gamer who sees through the scrub lies of random twitter players who complain about how offensive games are now, but the truth is that it IS a more offensive era of fighting games and it is done on purpose. Is that a bad thing inherently? Of course not, each game must be taken on a case by case basis and all eras/styles of fighting games have pros and cons to their core vision. The difference is in old games a lot of the biggest examples of nonsense either belonged to specific characters or were unintentional use of mechanics, usually a mix of the two.
NGL, there are so many neutral based fighting games like samsho that literally exist. It's so good and I hate how many people don't play it, especially people who complain about neutral 😅
The offensive mechanics are being added to counterbalance all the DEFENSIVE mechanics that have slowly been added and fine tuned within newer FGs. When new players start out the #1 thing that helps them to stay playing the game and have some amount of fun is the ability or option to get the opponent off of them or at least slow down their offense. If you look back at a majority of the old FGs you didn't have many defensive mechanics besides alpha counter, push block, parry, just defend, roll, spot dodge or invincible reversals. GG was one of the exceptions since it pioneered burst and faultless defense but most defensive options were pretty mild or cost meter that would be more valuable keeping until an opening to use the much more powerful offensive options you had. Some mechanics like parry also helped the top tiers in say 3S win even more than they already did compared to a character maybe avoiding pure bottom tier for the fact they can get parry punishes. Comeback mechanics and dual offensive/defensive mechanics have also become more prevalent over time as well. You're also right that usually specific characters had access to the crazy crap you saw in older FGs but also neutral was much more suffocating for some matchups as well. Take the matchup between OSagat vs Cammy in ST. Cammy virtually can't do anything to OSagat and can only inch her way through the fireball wall to only get uppercutted back to neutral if she doesn't get in perfectly. Zangief vs Poison in USF4 is another similar matchup.
@@SaltySanctuary I love SamSho, especially the new one but me and my best friend tried it again on PC after the rollback update dropped and somehow the lag was still awful. I think the online being rough has sadly kept it dead. Same with SC6 even though the online for that with my same friend was way smoother so Idk.
Justin didn't even attempt to counter the twitter poster's point; he just did the old "AKSHUALLLY..." He took it as an opportunity to flex his obscure (and respectable) knowledge of FGs, giving limited isolated examples of neutral skipping in old games. The fact of the matter is that FG developers are intentionally making the games mechanically more offensive. As you say, it may be a good, or a bad, thing; but it is a thing.
@@SaltySanctuary too bad pc samsho killed itself by launching on the epic store with bad netcode and no crossplay. sure they changed those things but it was too late.
Respect Justin and the point about older play styles being defensive cosa lack of knowledge is really good. I just wish people stopped stalking about old FG neutral skips when it was usually tied to very few characters cos anybody who talks about neutral skips being more relevant now refer to system mechanics. Every FG has neutral skips to some degree, It's how you spice up a game but not every game had it tied to system mechanics for every character to use the same way basically. I'm not blind the positives of this, this means every character is at least somewhat viable but the negatives are more RPS in more situations, more random feeling interactions and usually the damage output in these games are high now so you get punished HARD and rewarded little. Super dash is the only mechanic I recall greatly rewarding the defender for anti airing it, your character would die for SDing at the wrong spot. DR in SF6 on some character is insanely skewed risk reward wise, same for GBVSR 66L. Stuff like this isn't fun at high level, this is just making offense straight forward for beginners and it hurts the skill cieling.
max mode, full super bar, or specific character is what was needed to neutral skip back then. the thing now, is that game developers are adding that type of stuff to universal mechanics, meaning you deal with these situations from round start. thought you'd touch on that.
However, this still works because in the eyes of newer players, those mechanics are where the real fun stuff lies, so getting access to them at round start gives them that gratification of being able to do all that. But what a lot of modern games do, especially Tekken 8 and Street Fighter 6, is try to incentivize using those mechanics wisely, efficiently, and effectively, which in my eyes, is much more important than trying to work your way into that position.
Smug and SnakeEyez are two others I always think of when I think of new school NA players with really strong neutral. I think listening to the Tekken producer talk about this stuff kinda gave some insight into what devs are thinking about with regard to neutral these days. If you play certain old school games, it's very easy to just get shut down completely by a better player in neutral, and they saw this as a problem rather than something core to the genre. He said someone not being able to land a single hit on a more experienced player was bad for the new player experience. That's why they did things like purposely weaken backstep/sidestep in Tekken 7 and 8 to make it easier for players with weaker neutral to still force some scrambles. Not that you can't still shut someone out by being really good fundamentally because basics will always be the most important thing in any fighting game, but now your opponent generally has more options for forcing something sooner or later, and you'll probably have fewer options for evading and zoning. It's just some inherent tension between trying to make these games more fun/accessible for the average player VS having a deep e-sport game or whatever. Personally, I don't really mind when they make execution easier, since that's just a solo skill, but the "neutral skipping" sorta stuff tends to bother me more, since it waters down the whole "chess" aspect of fighting games. As Justin pointed out, this kinda stuff always existed even in older games, but it feels like much more of a deliberate design decision these days, whereas back then, it was mostly just a quirk of them experimenting with shit.
I think you can have both you can have both a game with accessible stuff and things to make the average player experience more fun, as well as still being able to make a skill based game, I don't think they have to be at odds with each other. I think the biggest problem is a lot of the new player friendly tools lack meaningful limits or they're too limited like as someone primarily in the guilty gear strive community, I've seen people joking about how happy chaos and nagoryuki aren't resource characters because they don't have to manage anything and I think that's the heart of the issue. There just is no cost to doing new player shit and the risk reward is heavily skewed towards reward and I think that's the problem because when the new player shit has low risk and high reward it becomes the move, because in fighting games and competition as a whole really you always want the lowest risk and highest reward assuming you're trying to win
I just wanted to throw two cents in from someone kinda looking from outside in. Just got into SF6 last month, but have been playing Melee my whole life, and I think a lot of people in this discussion are going through something with fighting games that I went through with Melee which is a sort of disillusion with the game. When Melee first started, the idea of playstyle and player expression eventually became a big deal where everyone was really into the idea that everyone could have their own unique playstyle. To a certain extent this was and still is true, and after the documentary, this idea came to a peak. However, after watching and playing Melee for so long, I've sort of realized that the idea of player expression was really overblown. People used to say that you could watch two Foxes, remove the name cards, and still tell who was playing, but anyone who says that is really just disillusioned with either the game, or their own ego. There is still player expression, Melee is a beautiful game, but not to the degree that everyone might've thought. I feel like people complaining about lack of neutral in SF6/modern FGC's, are going through the same thing I did. I'm sure these people have been playing fighting games for a long time, and they really have pride in themselves or their games when it came to neutral/footsies skills because it's what made them unique either as a player or a game. But like Justin said in this video, maybe the relevance of neutral/footsies was always overblown. I'm not saying neutral/footsies didn't exist before (I've been watching FGC since SF4), but I think the people really painted the idea of neutral/footsies in way that made the game more deep than it really was (this happens A LOT in Smash as well). The idea of the chess game within the game was always kinda funny to me as well because a huge part of chess (I would argue the majority) is just pure game knowledge and remembering game plans and responding. There's a lot less making reads or "taking turns" interactions like there are in FG's. On the topic of DR, as a new player I literally have no strong feelings about it, but definitely think without it, the cast would not be as balanced as it is. The disparity between the current top tiers and bottom tiers would be even larger since a lot of those top tiers have pretty safe "burst movement" (Dragon lash, Hooligan, etc.) or have good zoning tools (JP, Guile, etc.). Even though the current bottom tiers have terrible DR's, without it certain MU"s would be impossible. Basically it makes the game more balanced and I don't think that's a bad thing.
I think footsies and neutral are different things, you play footsies in neutral but it isn't neutral itself. Neutral is played all the time in all kinds of games it's just a matter of how much there's that vs pressure and setplay.
Your not wrong but just because neutral is happening , it’s not automatically fun or interesting, if fact some games have really frustrating neutral that gets you salty on disadvantage and empty on hit .
Idk if I agree JW, while it´s true unga has always been there it has as your examples shown been limited to either characters, meters or playstyle. The difference in modern fighters is the games are specifically centered around offensive mechanics. I personally don´t mind it much (XRD is my main game, which arguably has one of the most egregious neutral skips in recent times (YRC)), but modern games with their simplification + easy executable "neutral" skips simplify other qualities that make fgs intresting, atleast for me.
I think if you're gonna have neutral skips as a part of your game, the entire cast should have access to them. I think system mechanics are a good way of doing this. I'm still pretty new to fighting games, but I really like the direction of these newer titles, drive rush and wild assault are just fun to do If I tried XRD, I'd probably have a ton of fun with YRC as well I'd imagine
The "limit[s] to either characters, meters, or playstyle[s]" are necessary ones, as too much unga can lead to lots of other aspects breaking down like character archetypes, screen control, etc. (Here's looking at you, NASB.) Also the point of neutral is to get out of neutral in such a way that you have the advantage. These neutral skipping options are just faster ways to either do just that, or push your advantage once you've already attained it. Not only that, but we are reaching an era where appealing to both experienced players and novices alike, something that Super Smash Bros. in particular has prioritized since day 1, is more important than ever to fighting games, whose audiences have traditionally been relatively small in the grand scheme of things. The simplification and easily executable neutral skips allow newer players to grasp the game easier and lessen the frustration when getting absolutely bodied by more experienced players since they too can do the same things with enough practice, while also allowing experienced players to focus more on situations and player expression, which in my opinion, are the more interesting aspects of fighting games.
KizzyKay talked about this a long time ago. The conclusion he reached is that, neutral and footsies are still there. It's just the players trying to avoid it as much as possible. This is something i agree with. The moment a new fighting game trying to enforce footsies come out, the first thing the player base does is lab, every single method to remove footsies and neutral at all cost. Because it's not a 2 player game, it's a ME game where only I get to do my combos.
i think some characters in games back then having cheap neutral skips vs neutral skips being system mechanics are two very different things but maybe thats just me
Custom combo is an universal mechanic. Most of the cast in 3rd strike have cheap neutral skipping shit. ST was either skips or fireball madness. You either didn't play old games and are trying to justify your losses, or you played on such a low level that your perception of the game was completely wrong. Peace
I mean it’s not just vega wall dive. Balrog is made around neutral skips with dash punches, fei long has poke rekkas which do the work for him, any character with a fireball effectively has a neutral skip because fireballs are so good in that game. It’s not one character
Its the mechanics being universal that is more of the issue. In older games alot of the skips were either character specific (vega, el fuerte, etc.) or bugs (roll cancels in cvs 2). Now that these mechanics are readily available for the whole cast it makes every match devolve into a fight against said mechanics more than the fight against the opponent.
the problem is that even if the netural skips are character specific, guess what tier that character is going to be? Guess what character everyone is going to play, and what everyone is going to complain about? raw drive rush definitely is character specific. You can't raw drive rush on most of the cast across the screen (well, I think everyone except DJ and juri tbh) without getting checked once you start reaching master rank. You start noticing a lot of people using raw drive rush to cancel it in the hopes of whiff punishing instead. When that is becoming more commonplace, it just shows that its not as problematic as people are making it out to be. But yes, S2 it would be nice if DJ and Juri's DRs were brought back down from the heavens and back to the land of the mortals
Every time i hear something like this (be it neutral skips or drive rush or whatever it is people are mad about this week), alls i hear is "people dont let me win like its 1995 anymore and i refuse to play the game i actually bought"
Exactly. Fighting games are very ego centric. As in you can't blame your teammates for you losing because it's only you and your opponent. So what do people do to protect their ego? They blame the opponent or the game. Games have evolved quickly over the years because information is so readily available and the more popular a game is, the quicker it's "figured out". Just wish people would quit bitching. Current internet is just recycled bitch culture
It's just so sad how It's so difficult to please human beings. People say DR skips neutral or fighting games have become scrubby blah blah blah like adapt and enjoy the game bro. People just want to be salty when they lose and look for the tiniest thing they can put blame on other than themselves
@@weaponx8263it's amazing the lack of introspection many people have... Like, maybe wonder why you think you hate this game so much? That you also play all the time? This thing you're passionate about, you seem to know nothing about many old games lol. And by that point they've moved on to a new complaint anyway
In my opinion , The people saying this are more likely 2009 SF4 players born in 1990-1995 in their 30s now , not people in their 40s that were playing SF2 in 1995 . I am one of those old guys that are still playing and I’ve seen everything, have played and adapted to every new system. SF4 is not the holy grail of footsies.
You have to condition people to respect your options and then you can do what you want. Building your game-plan around that will shorten the time you take to learn characters and improve your offense significantly.
Awesome vid! In SF2CE I just mix up Ken's tatsu after sweep and you have to kind of guess I'm going to land. If you have slow reactions I deal mega big damage. W Sagat I just pressure you and I can cross up. And Bison is just ridulously broken even w nuetral. We have indeed gotten better!
I always thought that neutral was neutral until you connect a hard knockdown. Usually whoever gets a hard knockdown first gets the advantage, because the other person now has to guess right or connect a reversal in order to regain control. So from my perspective, neutral does indeed exist, but it ends up being a flash in most matches because both players are trying to gain the advantage as quickly as possible. If you want to time someone or yourself out in a match, Force yourself and your opponent to just play neutral. 😂
It doesn't even need to be a hard knockdown for the neutral phase to end. For example if ken/boxer/dhalsim pummel threw you in ST, you will be at a huge disadvantage. Usually the position advantage is very hard to overcome. That's why third strike is so different, since the parry system improved the defensive options.
the internet brings a hivemind type meta. Where as back in the day different arcades had different meta games based on trying to beat the top players at that one arcade. Now every1 can watch top players and spread information to more people faster. Back then there were some strategy guides, but even those had flaws or incomplete data that would get immediately pointed out if posted to an internet forum. Also, adjusted for inflation, the price of one strategy guide from the 90s is almost the same price as my internet bill which, has it for any game i own.
I think what people aren’t getting here, or are purposefully forgetting isn’t that people are remembering certain fighting games… what they are remembering are (windows of time) in certain fighting games lifespan. Sure we’ve got all these Vega/fuerte/Elena jab stuff that we can point to as not being part of the oldschool philosophy. But that isn’t really what people are getting at. That isn’t the point they are making. Fuerte was hated. ST Vega was hated and soft banned in Japan for a long time as was sagat. Elena jab BS was hated. What people are referring to are when games played like the valle versus daigo ryu sf4 mirror. Still one of the greatest sets of all time and it really doesn’t look like we will ever get that sort of gameplay back.. and I think this is what people are mad about. It doesn’t matter that old games had this crap here there and everywhere, what matters is that at the time these things were unknown or at the very least not used very much which means that the overall experience was one that was quite different from the experience nowadays… and it’s THE EXPERIENCE that people are after. I don’t care about unhappy Bunga if there are decent counters to it… but if beating unga means I need a PHD in “read a nomics” to beat it, it just ain’t fun. This goes for divekicks, walldives, EX DR, high and low crossups that look the exact same but hit on different sides and lead back into one another etc etc etc
While those are good examples, Vega in ST and Yun in 3S are exceptions to the rule. Now just about everyone can skip, not just one or a small handful of characters.
Great point. The games have obviously changed, but new gameplay styles have more to do with new tech and widespread knowledge than gameplay mechanics. These were great examples shown as well.
Why do people like to see aggression and situations where one forces their way though? I am genuinely curious. Personally I get hyped when I see someone outplay someone else. When someone has to put in a lot of effort.
I think a big part of it is also being confident in your options. Knowing what your tools are and how they work gives you that confidence to just get in there, ya know?
The examples shown from old games were one character not the system. Also we agree they were broken so why make a whole game around something we agree is unfair? Clearly that would be going in the wrong direction.
Yep, most examples where people go "Oh, look at Honda's sumo! He neutral skipping!" are being facetious cause yeah, it's one unique character and/or move. The entire game isn't built around the it. These are just moves with offer better movement, but they are predictable, and I'm sure in time players will adjust to the new Vega spam as well. We don't have the game eating the other player's inputs because Blanka did his "neutral skip" ball. I do agree that the knowledge and tools now are better, so players can go back and better exploit tactics to new effect... but those are likely going to be few and far between. Players can only break what the game gives them.
@@elfascisto6549 But the point of neutral is to get out of neutral in such a way that you have the advantage. These neutral skipping options are just faster ways to either do just that, or push your advantage once you've already attained it.
@@slimballs9650 playing neutral to me is actually playing the "game" part of the game. When you're not in neutral you're either just winning or losing. All the fun and mind games are at their peak during neutral, not as much when you're comboing or being comboed
Before there were one or two broken characters that did broken things that required some skill to unbalance the neutral, currently in street fighter 6 all characters can skip the neutral and play without thinking it has become massive for mediocre players because the game was created so that people without skill can have a chance against good players, something that didn't happen before. In short, they have reduced the skill gap
If a mediocre player is against a much better one, having neutral skip isn't going to help him win. Add to that that it is, as your point out yourself, a *universal* thing, and the whole argument fall apart. The better player also have access to it. The field is even. There are stuff that need to be balanced in 6, but it's not a issue of Neutral Skip existing, it's a balance issue because some character's are too good at it. As Sajam (i think) said "No one is complaining about Zangief's or Manon's DR". Just my two cents, I am no expert and does not claim that my opinion is the truth.
@@emperormegaman3856 He is correct, mediocre players have broken tools that are difficult to counter and easy to use, pro players have more difficulties than they should have to be able to defeat them, in other games that does not happen because they do not have tools that are so easy to use , that doesn't happen in other games with broken mechanics but more difficult to use
@@Belive7heHype you believe that's what everyone's argument is. It's not. Sometimes you do change the margins of a better player winning, but that doesn't really matter In the grand scheme of things. It's more that you just made a game where you forcefully skipped neutral where even you state it doesn't change much of anything for the new player. Aka you just dumbed your game down and you not only have the same issue you started with- but now a longevity issue of the top end of players not feeling like there's something much more to strive for like in sf4.
In all sf games blanka is in I can sit and charge press heavy kick or heavy punch to keep my opponent out. I can't really do that in sf6 cause if drive impact.
It's the practice-mode design. Games are made to emphasize 'tech' that can be done in single-player mode (traps and especially combo execution). Footsies and neutral can't be developed in the lab, so they're not that popular with a good part of the core audience
Fighting games have definitely tended towards more aggressive play lately, I think we can genuinely agree on that. But I think a lot of it is because theyre trying to appeal to new audiences. The old meme of "I didnt spend 80 dollars to not push buttons". New players like pushing buttons and being aggressive. The community has also got a lot bitchier, and its annoying. I come in and out of the FGC because its just so tiring hearing about who needs a nerf, who needs a buff, constantly complaining about the mechanics, acting like theyre top 8 players where extreme balance really matters, thinking they understand balance but they dont, etc. People just need something to complain about I think, honestly. Its easier to get bodied online and blame the game than admit you got bodied.
This argument of "you're not top 8 so tiers don't matter" has always been false. All it takes is for the two players to be approximately close in skill, you will feel the difference between top tier and bottom tier. Go play Lilly vs Luke, lemme know if you gotta be top 8 to feel that.
@@Choom89 I'm not saying balance never matters. If there's a big enough disparity between characters it does matter. But often there's much more contributing factors to a loss than just "ugh, broken character". You got out footsie, you couldn't deal with zoning, you dropped combos, etc. You're saying 2 players of a similar level in silver need to be worried about tiers? Nawh dude, not at all. Zangief is unilaterally one of, or the worst char in the game, but snake eyez can make him look absolutely broken against these characters everyone says are broken, and these obsession with tier lists only makes everyone's experience worse. Now casuals watch a video about how Luke is top 1 in the game or whatever, and surprise surprise, you run into a shitload of Luke from people thinking no matter their skill level they need to play top tier. The tier obsession is ruining the fgc
@@vangoghsseveredear "Tier obsession is ruining the FGC" I agree with this WHOLEHEARTEDLY!! It gets real annoying seeing people bring up Tiers in basically any discussion, using a character's Tier ranking to excuse someone somewhere finding them annoying to deal with {Potemkin as low tier in Strive, Sol in +R, etc.}, or how a character being low tier instantly makes them garbage that can't compete at all {Zangief being Low tier, Ryu being Mid-low tier}, when most if not every character is still good at the minimum level to where the specifics either don't matter or can be mitigated. Let's hope the tier obsession dies down soon.
thanks for saying it out loud Justin. Fighting games (and literally every game known to man) have some sort of tactics that are abused in a way that is outside the 'design' (w/e that means since games are just designed to be fun). Anime fighters have always had some sort of mechanic that lets you push your edge. when it was just a few characters that had those mechanics it creates an ultra high tier where nobody uses the other characters (Marvel,Smash,3rd strike,etc.) but if every character is fun and "busted" then its more balanced. Thats what yall are forgetting these newer fighting games are also 10x better balanced then the old ones. either every character sucks, or every character is fun. there is rarley an in-between. i do agree that they are making things more beginner friendly, with some easier to learn execution. however I do think that there are plenty of "barriers to entry" tech skills in all of them too. they just take a little more thinking outside the box. The unga part I think is just determined by if the game is good or not imo, Melty Blood has some really good ideas mechanically allowing players to go In, but still have some options on defense that aren't always just guessing.
I’m not against neutral skipping being an element in fighting games , in fact it’s needed but the problem is homogeneous universal neutral skips being part of the core game design. It makes for very little incentive to learn spacing or oki and stuff because the meta just becomes pressure or bait.
Except that's also not true. Guile, despite how boring people find him, plays his own game and can easily win rounds without relying on DR. Sim, Gief, and Manon have horrendous DRs so they can't really play that game either. Even characters with good DRs like Lily and Jaimie need to give up oki to get their buffs, so they rarely go into shimmy, throw loop flowcharts. And then there are the install kids like Blanka and Rashid, whose gameplan is to build 2 meters then activate their insane lv2s and mix up opponents to death. The real issue of SF6 is that 1 million pot at the end of the rainbow making pros stick to the same characters cause anything other than top 5 is a massive disadvantage.
@@mappybc60971. Lily is a grappler and doesn’t have a good DR. 2. Yes most of the pros are picking top 5s. But currently, 14 out of the 20 characters are represented in Capcom Cup.
In my opinion Street Fighter 4 was the best street fighter of all time. The most exciting iteration to watch and play. I felt you could express your individual style of play with the cast or characters and while there are always optimal combos it didnt feel canned at least moat of the time. It was like watching marvel in a way where players would make the character their own extention of themselves.
I feel that way about SF6. The drive meter gives you a lot of flexibility. I feel like it’s is an amalgamation of sf3-5. You can pick and choose how you want to play.
I wish there was a movement towards making it clear that something is punishable instead of sweating it out in microsoft excell in order to know something is punishable.
I disagree, you just have to force your opponent to respect your options like anti-airs, pokes, invincible moves, and punishes then they will have to start playing neutral. Neutral happens when just yolo’ing in doesn’t work and approaches have to be more patient and calculated because just going forward results in getting hit or being forced to make a mistake.
even if footsie are getting designed out, its bad to design a true asymetrical fighting game around it. Now if you are play a game where it is always a mirror match like the game "Footsies" thats when neutrals become fun. All the different hitboxes and frame data being calculated means you have to find other ways to get in that are more "off the cuff". Games might be skewing a little too heavy towards rushdown, but look at SF 6. if you asked people who play the game, almost everyone wants to nerf ken and JP, but for the complete opposite reasons. To me, that means they nailed character design in that game. The best rushdown character, and the best zoner are the two best characters. They dont need nerfs, instead the other characters need help getting to their level. MK1 became a nerf fest and i havent touched it since before thanksgiving. They caved too much to community pressure. I still play sf6 even though the only updates are new characters. Also, too frequent of updates leads to having to relearn stuff about matchups. i work over 40 hours a week and dont wanna be forced to lab for a couple days every patch when a patch drops every couple of weeks.
@@MrCrimsonftw Ken juri dj jp blanka chun li kimberly cammy luke rashid jamie all can be in your face in like 2 seconds with drive rush which is completely skipping neutral.
@@blue42goo thats just out of what you listed More than half the cast has a bad DR in neutral, with cammy having the single worst DR not on a grappler, which only works because she has two built in neutral skips
I think primarily people are able to more consistently go into bigger damage and crispy movement because both combos and input leniency have been made more generous execution-wise. Characters have always been able to do these things and take over games. Most people just sucked shit at doing them because they were harder. Now they're easier. Now everyone can do them. Now offense in most fighting games looks nutty. Always has been though
Games always had bullshit for sure, but I do think all the new games adding a somewhat similar mechanic is a bit egregious lol. And to play devils advocate, two of those examples were character specific stuff. Alpha activation is 100% f*ck neutral mechanic for sure tho lol
Ive hated that phrase this fighting game dont got neutral? What does that even mean?? It different sure but how it supposed to be? If you wanna play street fighter like that neutral play that fine if not that fine. But if i dont wanna play that slow pace neautral ill go play strive for something faster. Neutral is different in every fighting game not one neutral is the same as others.
i'm sure there will be a figjhting game that is gonna bring it back to the roots simply for the casual crowd who wants that slower pace and wants to understand what's going on. like today there's a lot of complexity right out of the box that translates into simplicity when you get to a certain level because it has been distilled and boiled down to a very set way of playing. but i can see a very simplistic fighting game come around that increases in complexity with player skill because of mindgames and micro managing pros and cons of each move. like really you don't need a lot for a fighting game, you can literally have a one button fighting game.
The drive rush and the corner grab loop are such weak mechanics that players without skill can abuse them and make really good players suffer, something that does not happen in 3rdstrike, since a good player is not going to lose to someone mediocre who is below his level, something that you experienced when Hayao destroyed you with a low level and in that encounter you used the best character in the game, also the genei jin requires skill to make the optimal combo that generates the greatest damage
@@Serenade3s If they had been playing in street fighter 6, Justin Wong would have defeated Hayao using the drive rush and the grappling loop, since Hayao defeated Wong by his great neutral game.
3rd Strike is majorly unbalanced however, there are many characters that are multiple tiers beyond the rest of the cast & a couple of characters that are joke tier (especially with particular supers). While 3rd Strike is popular now (because the parry mechanic is unique & the roster is so different) but in reality it never had the big popularity when it first came out, thats why it never really got the Turbo/Super/Ultimate editions that also acted as a balance patch.
@QWE-hn8hj I wasnt really speaking about arcades but consoles. According to some stats i found, SF 3rd strike had around 180k sales. By comparison SFA had 500k, while SFA3 had 1mil sales. Its evident that SFA3 just destroyed 3rd strike in popularity, and they have only 1 year difference.
@@GeoGyf I don't think it's right to measure the quality of a game just by its popularity, alpha killed the neutral with its custom combos, I think a lot of people don't like 3rdstrike just because it's a game with a lot of mental game with the neutral game, but to people like to attack without thinking
This will get buried in the comments and is probably a stupid idea but perhaps a way to nerf the unga a bit (in SF6) is to add a wake-up move of rolling (Parry+quarter circle in the direction you wish to roll) at the cost of a a half or maybe one drive bar. It would have only a few invincible frames (and cannot be cancelled out of) but would allow an avenue of resetting or recovering a bit of momentum of the match. Again, said roll would only be available on wake-up. Less unga. More Bunga.
You just described tech rolling at the cost of meter. There are strategies to catch ukemi.so I do t know if that would solve anything or not . Does sf6 have delayed wake up as an option ?
Unpopular opinion: Fireballs when used repeatedly (no, I’m not the scrub who calls zoning “projectile spamming”) are often basically just as much “neutral skips” as any of the aggression mechanics mentioned, it’s just that they can skip neutral in the direction of keepaway rather than rushdown. Aggression mechanics on the other hand generally move your hurtbox forward along with your hitbox so it makes sense they’re higher reward, because they’re higher risk (mess up and you basically served your hurtbox to your opponent on a plate to eat the biggest punish they can muster).
3:25 Now I feel insulted, as this was my common play style with Vega. But at least now I know I was able to compete with the world's best, even though I consider myself a complete noob in fighting games
Overall in any fighting game players will use the optimal combos whereas in sf6 I feel like I can create nearly any combo I want. Optimal combos are always repeated because why would you not pick the best option? that’s the mentality behind it and why it gets repetitive.
the real reason for combo variety is if you need a variety of different combos based on various variables so you dont see the same combo as often also if the game looks good and is well paced the combos arent as obstructive to the experience, but i have noticed that combos in sf6 feel like a slog
Core A Gaming made a whole video on this. Games have neutral skipping tools so as to be more offensive, which is spectator oriented. It’s a marketing tool.
The death of neutral just makes every match and character look and play the same. Maybe I'm old but I miss when a good match looked like a game of chess instead of a game of Hungry Hungry Hippos.
At the other extreme, go watch any old ST match with Sagat or Guile - endless fireball wars weren't "true" neutral or chess anymore than Claw wall dives. There's still plenty of chess in modern games, and old games had plenty of unga.
@@nickfry7839are you saying there were never unga Ken's yolo DP'ing in the 90s? Human nature hasn't changed, casual Ken plays always found ways to unga and always will.
i personally feel neutral isnt dead simple because at most levels of fg’s, neutral isnt even played and at high level there’s so many options and so many thoughts going on that you’re forced into a neutral state. shimmies and footsies are very situational now though considering how many full screen/ rushdown mechanics and attacks are in fg’s now.
Personally I think people have issues with how most modern games have built in mechanics to just skip neutral or to just reward the losing player. Now some older games had some of this bullshit like alpha games custom combos but not many players developed those skills.
The game is just very different from what I enjoy in a fighting game, as a result I got no interest in playing it, especially when legacy options exist (although not quite to the extent of which they should exist. No legacy tekken, legacy sf is done only by the community etc.)
@@finnmarr-heenan2397 I mean they aren’t playing for us to respect them, im not gonna pretend sf6 is an easy mode game far from it, my point is that the new games being super different is fine IF there are legacy options, unfortunately capcom and namco are scum when it comes to this aspect
I know they don’t play for my approval that’s why I say let them have their fun, it’s just not very hype seeing incredibly similar clips of the universal mechanic being used as intended .
in my opinion fighting game terms must be fluid. such as neutral. not even through generations but even match to match. vega vs vega in st. it may look silly and i agree its not what i picture when i hear neutral but i see nothing to gain from being so rigid when it comes to something as silly as fighting game terms. half the time the fgc has more than one definition for half the lingo anyway. jm went into more detail regarding lingo as well.
¿What is unga? 🤣🤣🤣 The thing I hate the most in the last three SF is the input readings. For some reason these games are extra sensitive and they accept any direction as an order, so you get lots of unintentional moves, supers, specials... You can just shake the stick and press a button and the character will make some special, it is super frustrating. The other playability differences, the mechanics and such... Well, I guess you can't make a game nowadays where you can win a match just with 6 or 7 blows like in the original SFII...
unga is doing a mechanic that allows you to skip a neutral footies situation, drive rush is the best example in street fighter 6, force positive frames with no real counter, force 50/50s, force throw loops etc..
There is also a difference between fun neutral and neutral. A lot of modern games lack the balance between pressure and the dance to land the first hit. It’s either one or the other .
One cool thing is that kinda by proxy, if modern games have the aggressive pressure extending, neutral ending mechanics being universal, gives more room in a character's base toolkit for actual neutral tools, that just come with more risk than they would in a slower game. Seeing some older examples of this like sf alpha custom combos basically becoming blue rc/ veil off is really cool to me.
It's stupid to say "old games weren't like this yadda yadda." But what is more important to note is that these "Neutral skip Unga bunga" things are now universal mechanics. To me, that homogenized outlook is what sucks, so I tend to play older games or KoFXV.
Ah yes, ST the most technical fighting game ever. Meanwhile, in reality two guys in grand finals literally jumping and mashing grab like their life depended on it.
I have Tekken 8 and I have to say, it’s a lot of fun. But I notice that it takes a lot less skill to play as Tekkens 1-5 ever did. Things have just gotten easier and more about getting a wider audience through simple and offensive focused. The problem is that these games have little staying power. It’s a shame to see fighting games being more and more dumbed down when compared to Street Fighter II Turbo, Samurai Shodown II, Virtua Fighter 5, Dead or Alive 2… King of Fighters 95. Of course Street Fighter III: 3rd Strike. I’m fully against simple controls. I hate the dumbing down of fighters. Old games continue to dominate, despite the older and more limited technology.
this goes for any online games. mmos, fps, racing and so on. the longer that type of game is out and popular, the more tech, knowledge, skill and what ever else gets improved. which also mean if u take a break from the game for a month or more, it may feel like a completely different game when u get back to it. i remember when i play codMW2 everyday. so much fun so much to learn and it feels like every1 is getting better slowly. now i try to play a cod game and the movement, acc, map layout is all mastered in the first week. i sadly just cant keep up with the progression ppl make in games now.
@@boredomkiller99 note that I said oki and *continuing* pressure. If you have safe ways to engage, aka neutral skips, then being able to keep that momemtum is a bit much. Make it so that we have safe ways for the defender to force neutral so we can breathe a bit.
There's definitely still footsies, unless the chars in the matchup have neutral skip moves. This is especially true in high level. Thing is, neutral skip moves is a tool that a char can have. A good cast shud have no chars with the same toolset. Some may be able to skip neutral, some may have bs mix, some may have bs oki, some may have bs dmg. I think a lot of developers forgot about that and nowadays high percentage of full cast have some sort of neutral skip.
The neutral skip moves are universal system mechanics in modern fighting games --- that's the core of a complaint. A couple of gorilla characters with moves like that whose kits are balanced around it is one thing. Everyone having them stapled via universal system mechanics is another.
I still would have to disagree about people just being worse. It's unequivocally much more difficult to do combos 3S let alone in SF4 than it was in 6, and getting big damage usually involved reasonably frame accurate inputs. At least 3S had you parry high or low, this game is a universal 1 button parry for anything
Footsies are going to be still in all newer and older fighting games if there's a punch or kick button at least. 🔘✅ Yeah, I think footsies and learning game mechanics go hand in hand.
Kind of missing the point here Justin. Old games werent 100% footsies due to certain character existing that had neutral bypass like SF2 Vega and SF3 Yun. But what the Tweet is saying is that now games make neutral skipping tools universal to all characters as a mechanic, which is correct. Perfect example is DNF Duel where most of the cast can skip neutral with just pressing big full screen buttons and you cant do anything about it. The lowest tier character in that game was Launcher, why? Because she was the only character who HAD to play neutral.
Because games today strive for balance, older games didn't that's why tier system back then was much more marked than today where characters are designed with viability in mind.
@@finnmarr-heenan2397 Pretty much. when you lower the skill ceiling so much, everyone, mid to pro players, will just do the same thing and theres barely any variety. I barely even watch FG tourneys anymore ever since SF5 after seeing how boring it was compared to 4. I miss the days when a dark horse out of nowhere pull some super sick stuff in a match and the moment gets cemented in history. Those moments will never happen again with the way modern games are designed.
I really have a bit of a different take of it. Why say that there's no neutral if there's always a neutral, just needs a different approach. So called "neutral skips" are also part of the neutral that add up to mental stack. Hondas neuch without headbutt is not as good, but saying that Honda doesn't play neutral because of it is a bit wrong, cause he still needs to figure out a way to make it land (sf6 Honda). So like if he does heabutt fullscreen it's reactable and you can jump back to punish. So i think neutral should be viewed as a unique thing for each game rather than specific definition. Every character has effective range and different tools you got to play around and that's what makes it exciting. Edit: forgot to mention. Some characters also require meter to skip neutral. I think then neutral is defined by whether you let them build that meter or not.
Fighting games are moving to these super aggressive mechanics because the fact is most people want to see slugfests, not chess...and the fact is most players CAN'T play chess and don't care to learn. Looking at comments throughout youtube, twitch and reddit and it's painfully obvious that the greater population of fighting game fans really have no concept of core fundamentals whatsoever. So devs continuing to prioritize these things would be shooting themselves in the foot as far as aiming for profits by catering to a smaller percentage of people who want intelligence-based play vs hyper-agressive, guess-focused mechanics. It's not fun for most spectators because they don't understand what they're looking at, much like how watching a boxer like Mayweather would look "boring" to casual fans. The flipside is, it gets boring fast. I like playing SF6 but the times i do lose i rarely feel outplayed, and watching it even at the highest level has become stale (to me) because the meta is pretty linear.
Even in a game like CVS2 it can come down to how the players play. In the US back in the mid 2000s the US players tended to play CVS2 rather defensively. Today though when you watch Big One/Game Newton Japanese CVS2 stuff those players are playing very aggressively in a game that was known for being defensive with lots of defensive options.
all began with people whining about motion input. ''hadoken motion is too hard to input''...now one button is enough.. pretty sure that in the next SF game people will be able to do 1 frame link combo by turning a steering wheel to the left. We are in the ''assist era'' of competitive games and it's really sad imo
I don't necessarily agree. There are definitely more deliberate aggressive mechanics and you can see the difference between that and the more "accidental" versions of it. The deliberate mechanics are usually more universal and not character specific and you can see it with other mechanics (i.e. less defensive options, balancing, etc.).
You have more defensive options now more than ever, issue is the old games make you think there's more defensive options due to the lack of knowledge and less available information than now.
Hi, I'm the guy who made the original tweet. Thanks for reading the followup tweets, and I think you bring up a really interesting point that I've also observed: how neutral and footsie-based gameplay is more prevalent in a game's early stages, when mechanics haven't yet been deconstructed and mastered, and the only thing you can really depend on is your fundamentals. Nowadays we have an even more interesting paradigm; when games are new, people lean back on neutral and footsies until they grasp the game's mechanics. But if the game lives long enough, you might even see the game literally evolve with the players; title updates and post-launch system changes will irreversibly change the way you approach a game that was originally played as a footsie game. People called me crazy when I said that SF5 was a footsie game, but that's because we only see SF5 in terms of Season 5 with characters like G or Poison or Akuma who can go absolutely ballistic; no one remembers Season 0 or Season 1 SF5. And we've seen this happen with different games like Tekken 7 and Guilty Gear Strive, how the game itself will introduce new mechanics that push players towards more aggressive play, and I find that it's a fascinating paradigm shift.
Perhaps I chose my words poorly when I said "the age of footsies" or "the age of unga" because Twitter is awful and I only have 180 characters to express a complex thought. This tweet ended up starting so many fights that I never intended, when all I really wanted to say was "I think these new aggression-focused mechanics are neat".
So if that was what you intended to say - “aggression mechanics are neat” - then even if we put the blame on Twitter’s character limit, I think you would’ve been better served saying “entering an age of rushdown” than “an age of unga”.
The term “unga” often is to “rushdown” what the term “projectile spam” is to “zoning”. Hopefully that makes sense. It’s generally implicitly a way of saying “this doesn’t require skill/strategy” which is how most people will interpret it. It doesn’t help that the term you contrasted it with carries the connotation of “something that requires skill/strategy.”
Now, hindsight is 20/20 and I won’t say this is your fault - even if you meant it in a positive way, there were enough people who agreed with the unintended connotation of your tweet to make this a “thing” in the FGC. People in general often yearn for ways to express their feeling that “things were better before” and their desire for that to be true even though it isn’t.
No, I say stick by your words "age of unga". Justin gave great examples but characters like Vega in ST and Yun in 3S are exceptions to the rule. Now just about everyone in the cast can skip in this "age of unga", not just one or a small handful of characters like in the examples.
@@foyo5497 I don’t think it’s so much the framing of “entering the age of unga” that’s an issue, it’s the added juxtapositional framing of “ending the era of footsies and neutral.” Justin’s point was that the mechanics to play “unga” style have always coexisted with “footsies and neutral” and the fact that more games have rushdown-oriented system mechanics doesn’t mean neutral isn’t still crucial to those games nor does it equate to “the age of footsies and neutral is over” - it just means that the landscape of what modern footsies/neutral look like is evolving.
@@blazaybla22 that's 4 more characters than bro had
I’m 45 years old and was in the arcades playing these older games back in the day all through the 90’s. Justin is right that the gameplay was slower then. There were a lot of things we just didn’t know bc information was so hard to come by. You couldn’t lab situations. If you saw something you had never seen before from a player you just had to throw in your quarter and try to mimic it and hoped it worked out. The level of gameplay has def gotten way better than it was back then with the exchange of information on the TH-cam and discord and such. In my humble opinion I think the direction of fighting games is going in the right direction. Fighting games are more popular now than they have ever been bc of the crazy mechanics and systems that are common in fighting games now.
Fax bro there’s so much game footage to help you learn 😊
Street Fighter Hyper Fighting was faster than SF6 though.. 🤷♀
I still learn what moves beat out others by trial and error. Hoovering over frame data just isn't appealing most of the time.
It took me about a year to master the dragon punch!
@@davidreeves4556 With modern street Fighter Games, and DP short cuts..?
Agree that a big part of it is change in player knowledge, but I think there's also an aspect of player culture change. In the arcade days, you had some money on the line in every game, so playing more defensively was a natural response (due to how risk adverse the human brain tends to be). The rise of home online play in the last ~15 years has given people a lot more freedom to experiment and develop understanding of how to be aggressive effectively.
Not to imply that there weren't aggressive players before (like Tokido, Ricki, Combofiend, etc.), but they were more the exception than the norm, in my experience.
People are framing it as neutral skip bad but I think the real disconnect is between pre baked and free form game design, a good example is the “ real tekken “ debate old characters have to use movement fundamentals and whiff punishing, new characters have built in mix on their string that feel like doa without the counter system.then they add rage, power crush and rage arts to completely bypass the old play style. Now even characters that are built for flashy combos don’t really feel expressive as they used to
My friend shown me even in GBVSR how important footie is. At first it's frustrating because I didn't understand why everything he does is plus, every move he used has better reach than mine, then he told me to stop running and learn to walk instead. That's when I realize every step he made in the game has purpose and it's always outside of my jab, while enough for his poke to reach me. Watching pro's match playing character like Metera/Narm sure taught me to pay attention at the distance they keep before throwing out move.
Just because you can zip around the stage doesn't mean there is no neutral in the game. You just have to accept the fact that the neutral is much faster than older games. Throwing 2 fireballs and people already start getting into your face, as oppose to the fireball spam back in the day.
Honestly people myself included, fell
In love with your infamous match 20 years ago against daigo. Thats where this myth came from. There are great instances of neutral and good footsies but the unga has always been there like you said.
He also said Unga Bunga were highlight with expert players during pandemic decades after the game came out.
Now we have with street Fighter 6 Unga Bunga for everyone even beginners! without the skill you had to have in the old games.. 😥 Lowering the skill gap and making SF6 casino Fighter 6 The guessing game. Everybody play the same..
@michaelromeo9567 If that were true, randoms across the world would be winning tournaments left and right. Every winner or top 8 would be nothing but random poeple.
@@michaelromeo9567 yes bro, thank. Casino fighter 6. Couldn't agree more. I would add something else: Casino fighter 6: corner carry edition.
Wrong. Best players would be always best players even with crappy games.
It's not because pro players continue towin that modern games are perfect . 🤷♀
Problem is significant with middle to average levels. It's completely broken.
Even pro players are complaining about SF6.
Even Daigo said that SF6 is designed that way , so new comers feel like they are good and they are not frustrated with skill gap.
Punk is not completely crazy
There are more robberies in SF6 than in previous SF games.
The games is designed that way.
It's more spectacular , scores is closer to 50/50
Situations are closer to 50/50
You will never see Scores like 10 to zero in Tokido VS Daigo matches like back in days.
SF6 is designed to please casual players.
How can you say that the skill level is not reduced on purpose like all these new mechanics in SF6..?
Capcom doesn't care .
They prefer money over legacy games like KOF , Tekken or Virtua Fighter 5.
@@michaelromeo9567 Well said my man. I think we can all agree that people are stealling rounds with those mechanics. You're fighting those mechanics most of the time, not your opponent. With even Daigo saying that the game is scrubby i don't understand why people keep defending the game.
One thing to note is that companies have made it clear why they are designing more for offense. Harada and the SF devs have both explicitly stated that more offensive games are being made because they are easier to get into and more exciting for a spectator to watch. People can pretend they're some enlightened god gamer who sees through the scrub lies of random twitter players who complain about how offensive games are now, but the truth is that it IS a more offensive era of fighting games and it is done on purpose.
Is that a bad thing inherently? Of course not, each game must be taken on a case by case basis and all eras/styles of fighting games have pros and cons to their core vision. The difference is in old games a lot of the biggest examples of nonsense either belonged to specific characters or were unintentional use of mechanics, usually a mix of the two.
NGL, there are so many neutral based fighting games like samsho that literally exist. It's so good and I hate how many people don't play it, especially people who complain about neutral 😅
The offensive mechanics are being added to counterbalance all the DEFENSIVE mechanics that have slowly been added and fine tuned within newer FGs. When new players start out the #1 thing that helps them to stay playing the game and have some amount of fun is the ability or option to get the opponent off of them or at least slow down their offense. If you look back at a majority of the old FGs you didn't have many defensive mechanics besides alpha counter, push block, parry, just defend, roll, spot dodge or invincible reversals. GG was one of the exceptions since it pioneered burst and faultless defense but most defensive options were pretty mild or cost meter that would be more valuable keeping until an opening to use the much more powerful offensive options you had. Some mechanics like parry also helped the top tiers in say 3S win even more than they already did compared to a character maybe avoiding pure bottom tier for the fact they can get parry punishes. Comeback mechanics and dual offensive/defensive mechanics have also become more prevalent over time as well.
You're also right that usually specific characters had access to the crazy crap you saw in older FGs but also neutral was much more suffocating for some matchups as well. Take the matchup between OSagat vs Cammy in ST. Cammy virtually can't do anything to OSagat and can only inch her way through the fireball wall to only get uppercutted back to neutral if she doesn't get in perfectly. Zangief vs Poison in USF4 is another similar matchup.
@@SaltySanctuary I love SamSho, especially the new one but me and my best friend tried it again on PC after the rollback update dropped and somehow the lag was still awful. I think the online being rough has sadly kept it dead. Same with SC6 even though the online for that with my same friend was way smoother so Idk.
Justin didn't even attempt to counter the twitter poster's point; he just did the old "AKSHUALLLY..." He took it as an opportunity to flex his obscure (and respectable) knowledge of FGs, giving limited isolated examples of neutral skipping in old games. The fact of the matter is that FG developers are intentionally making the games mechanically more offensive. As you say, it may be a good, or a bad, thing; but it is a thing.
@@SaltySanctuary too bad pc samsho killed itself by launching on the epic store with bad netcode and no crossplay. sure they changed those things but it was too late.
Respect Justin and the point about older play styles being defensive cosa lack of knowledge is really good. I just wish people stopped stalking about old FG neutral skips when it was usually tied to very few characters cos anybody who talks about neutral skips being more relevant now refer to system mechanics. Every FG has neutral skips to some degree, It's how you spice up a game but not every game had it tied to system mechanics for every character to use the same way basically. I'm not blind the positives of this, this means every character is at least somewhat viable but the negatives are more RPS in more situations, more random feeling interactions and usually the damage output in these games are high now so you get punished HARD and rewarded little. Super dash is the only mechanic I recall greatly rewarding the defender for anti airing it, your character would die for SDing at the wrong spot. DR in SF6 on some character is insanely skewed risk reward wise, same for GBVSR 66L. Stuff like this isn't fun at high level, this is just making offense straight forward for beginners and it hurts the skill cieling.
max mode, full super bar, or specific character is what was needed to neutral skip back then. the thing now, is that game developers are adding that type of stuff to universal mechanics, meaning you deal with these situations from round start. thought you'd touch on that.
However, this still works because in the eyes of newer players, those mechanics are where the real fun stuff lies, so getting access to them at round start gives them that gratification of being able to do all that. But what a lot of modern games do, especially Tekken 8 and Street Fighter 6, is try to incentivize using those mechanics wisely, efficiently, and effectively, which in my eyes, is much more important than trying to work your way into that position.
2002 max mode 😮💨
Smug and SnakeEyez are two others I always think of when I think of new school NA players with really strong neutral.
I think listening to the Tekken producer talk about this stuff kinda gave some insight into what devs are thinking about with regard to neutral these days. If you play certain old school games, it's very easy to just get shut down completely by a better player in neutral, and they saw this as a problem rather than something core to the genre. He said someone not being able to land a single hit on a more experienced player was bad for the new player experience.
That's why they did things like purposely weaken backstep/sidestep in Tekken 7 and 8 to make it easier for players with weaker neutral to still force some scrambles. Not that you can't still shut someone out by being really good fundamentally because basics will always be the most important thing in any fighting game, but now your opponent generally has more options for forcing something sooner or later, and you'll probably have fewer options for evading and zoning.
It's just some inherent tension between trying to make these games more fun/accessible for the average player VS having a deep e-sport game or whatever. Personally, I don't really mind when they make execution easier, since that's just a solo skill, but the "neutral skipping" sorta stuff tends to bother me more, since it waters down the whole "chess" aspect of fighting games. As Justin pointed out, this kinda stuff always existed even in older games, but it feels like much more of a deliberate design decision these days, whereas back then, it was mostly just a quirk of them experimenting with shit.
I think you can have both you can have both a game with accessible stuff and things to make the average player experience more fun, as well as still being able to make a skill based game, I don't think they have to be at odds with each other.
I think the biggest problem is a lot of the new player friendly tools lack meaningful limits or they're too limited like as someone primarily in the guilty gear strive community, I've seen people joking about how happy chaos and nagoryuki aren't resource characters because they don't have to manage anything and I think that's the heart of the issue.
There just is no cost to doing new player shit and the risk reward is heavily skewed towards reward and I think that's the problem because when the new player shit has low risk and high reward it becomes the move, because in fighting games and competition as a whole really you always want the lowest risk and highest reward assuming you're trying to win
I just wanted to throw two cents in from someone kinda looking from outside in. Just got into SF6 last month, but have been playing Melee my whole life, and I think a lot of people in this discussion are going through something with fighting games that I went through with Melee which is a sort of disillusion with the game. When Melee first started, the idea of playstyle and player expression eventually became a big deal where everyone was really into the idea that everyone could have their own unique playstyle. To a certain extent this was and still is true, and after the documentary, this idea came to a peak. However, after watching and playing Melee for so long, I've sort of realized that the idea of player expression was really overblown. People used to say that you could watch two Foxes, remove the name cards, and still tell who was playing, but anyone who says that is really just disillusioned with either the game, or their own ego. There is still player expression, Melee is a beautiful game, but not to the degree that everyone might've thought.
I feel like people complaining about lack of neutral in SF6/modern FGC's, are going through the same thing I did. I'm sure these people have been playing fighting games for a long time, and they really have pride in themselves or their games when it came to neutral/footsies skills because it's what made them unique either as a player or a game. But like Justin said in this video, maybe the relevance of neutral/footsies was always overblown. I'm not saying neutral/footsies didn't exist before (I've been watching FGC since SF4), but I think the people really painted the idea of neutral/footsies in way that made the game more deep than it really was (this happens A LOT in Smash as well). The idea of the chess game within the game was always kinda funny to me as well because a huge part of chess (I would argue the majority) is just pure game knowledge and remembering game plans and responding. There's a lot less making reads or "taking turns" interactions like there are in FG's.
On the topic of DR, as a new player I literally have no strong feelings about it, but definitely think without it, the cast would not be as balanced as it is. The disparity between the current top tiers and bottom tiers would be even larger since a lot of those top tiers have pretty safe "burst movement" (Dragon lash, Hooligan, etc.) or have good zoning tools (JP, Guile, etc.). Even though the current bottom tiers have terrible DR's, without it certain MU"s would be impossible. Basically it makes the game more balanced and I don't think that's a bad thing.
I think footsies and neutral are different things, you play footsies in neutral but it isn't neutral itself. Neutral is played all the time in all kinds of games it's just a matter of how much there's that vs pressure and setplay.
This.
Your not wrong but just because neutral is happening , it’s not automatically fun or interesting, if fact some games have really frustrating neutral that gets you salty on disadvantage and empty on hit .
Idk if I agree JW, while it´s true unga has always been there it has as your examples shown been limited to either characters, meters or playstyle. The difference in modern fighters is the games are specifically centered around offensive mechanics. I personally don´t mind it much (XRD is my main game, which arguably has one of the most egregious neutral skips in recent times (YRC)), but modern games with their simplification + easy executable "neutral" skips simplify other qualities that make fgs intresting, atleast for me.
I think if you're gonna have neutral skips as a part of your game, the entire cast should have access to them.
I think system mechanics are a good way of doing this. I'm still pretty new to fighting games, but I really like the direction of these newer titles, drive rush and wild assault are just fun to do
If I tried XRD, I'd probably have a ton of fun with YRC as well I'd imagine
The "limit[s] to either characters, meters, or playstyle[s]" are necessary ones, as too much unga can lead to lots of other aspects breaking down like character archetypes, screen control, etc. (Here's looking at you, NASB.)
Also the point of neutral is to get out of neutral in such a way that you have the advantage. These neutral skipping options are just faster ways to either do just that, or push your advantage once you've already attained it.
Not only that, but we are reaching an era where appealing to both experienced players and novices alike, something that Super Smash Bros. in particular has prioritized since day 1, is more important than ever to fighting games, whose audiences have traditionally been relatively small in the grand scheme of things. The simplification and easily executable neutral skips allow newer players to grasp the game easier and lessen the frustration when getting absolutely bodied by more experienced players since they too can do the same things with enough practice, while also allowing experienced players to focus more on situations and player expression, which in my opinion, are the more interesting aspects of fighting games.
Imo either everyone does it or no one does
“ the entire cast should have them “ that’s the problem if everyone can skip neutral why would they build a culture around it?
@@finnmarr-heenan2397 I like being able to zoom 🤷♀️
KizzyKay talked about this a long time ago. The conclusion he reached is that, neutral and footsies are still there. It's just the players trying to avoid it as much as possible.
This is something i agree with. The moment a new fighting game trying to enforce footsies come out, the first thing the player base does is lab, every single method to remove footsies and neutral at all cost. Because it's not a 2 player game, it's a ME game where only I get to do my combos.
this was a dope video, some fighting game concepts with video cilps to show what you're talking about.
i think some characters in games back then having cheap neutral skips vs neutral skips being system mechanics are two very different things but maybe thats just me
It isn't just you. You're 100% right.
Custom combo is an universal mechanic. Most of the cast in 3rd strike have cheap neutral skipping shit. ST was either skips or fireball madness.
You either didn't play old games and are trying to justify your losses, or you played on such a low level that your perception of the game was completely wrong. Peace
I mean it’s not just vega wall dive. Balrog is made around neutral skips with dash punches, fei long has poke rekkas which do the work for him, any character with a fireball effectively has a neutral skip because fireballs are so good in that game. It’s not one character
Its the mechanics being universal that is more of the issue. In older games alot of the skips were either character specific (vega, el fuerte, etc.) or bugs (roll cancels in cvs 2). Now that these mechanics are readily available for the whole cast it makes every match devolve into a fight against said mechanics more than the fight against the opponent.
It's always about the character. No one is complaining about Gief, Chun or Manon drive rush.
the problem is that even if the netural skips are character specific, guess what tier that character is going to be? Guess what character everyone is going to play, and what everyone is going to complain about?
raw drive rush definitely is character specific. You can't raw drive rush on most of the cast across the screen (well, I think everyone except DJ and juri tbh) without getting checked once you start reaching master rank. You start noticing a lot of people using raw drive rush to cancel it in the hopes of whiff punishing instead. When that is becoming more commonplace, it just shows that its not as problematic as people are making it out to be.
But yes, S2 it would be nice if DJ and Juri's DRs were brought back down from the heavens and back to the land of the mortals
That means every game is V ism A3 or A groove CVS2 lmao
Every time i hear something like this (be it neutral skips or drive rush or whatever it is people are mad about this week), alls i hear is "people dont let me win like its 1995 anymore and i refuse to play the game i actually bought"
Exactly. Fighting games are very ego centric. As in you can't blame your teammates for you losing because it's only you and your opponent. So what do people do to protect their ego? They blame the opponent or the game.
Games have evolved quickly over the years because information is so readily available and the more popular a game is, the quicker it's "figured out".
Just wish people would quit bitching. Current internet is just recycled bitch culture
It's just so sad how It's so difficult to please human beings.
People say DR skips neutral or fighting games have become scrubby blah blah blah like adapt and enjoy the game bro.
People just want to be salty when they lose and look for the tiniest thing they can put blame on other than themselves
@@weaponx8263it's amazing the lack of introspection many people have... Like, maybe wonder why you think you hate this game so much? That you also play all the time? This thing you're passionate about, you seem to know nothing about many old games lol. And by that point they've moved on to a new complaint anyway
In my opinion , The people saying this are more likely 2009 SF4 players born in 1990-1995 in their 30s now , not people in their 40s that were playing SF2 in 1995 .
I am one of those old guys that are still playing and I’ve seen everything, have played and adapted to every new system. SF4 is not the holy grail of footsies.
@@weaponx8263That last part of your comment is idiotic.
Well now I understand why everyone counters my drive rush all the time. I'm trying to skip neutral and giving them a huge window to react.
You have to condition people to respect your options and then you can do what you want.
Building your game-plan around that will shorten the time you take to learn characters and improve your offense significantly.
Awesome vid! In SF2CE I just mix up Ken's tatsu after sweep and you have to kind of guess I'm going to land. If you have slow reactions I deal mega big damage. W Sagat I just pressure you and I can cross up. And Bison is just ridulously broken even w nuetral. We have indeed gotten better!
I always thought that neutral was neutral until you connect a hard knockdown. Usually whoever gets a hard knockdown first gets the advantage, because the other person now has to guess right or connect a reversal in order to regain control. So from my perspective, neutral does indeed exist, but it ends up being a flash in most matches because both players are trying to gain the advantage as quickly as possible. If you want to time someone or yourself out in a match, Force yourself and your opponent to just play neutral. 😂
It doesn't even need to be a hard knockdown for the neutral phase to end. For example if ken/boxer/dhalsim pummel threw you in ST, you will be at a huge disadvantage. Usually the position advantage is very hard to overcome. That's why third strike is so different, since the parry system improved the defensive options.
the internet brings a hivemind type meta. Where as back in the day different arcades had different meta games based on trying to beat the top players at that one arcade. Now every1 can watch top players and spread information to more people faster. Back then there were some strategy guides, but even those had flaws or incomplete data that would get immediately pointed out if posted to an internet forum. Also, adjusted for inflation, the price of one strategy guide from the 90s is almost the same price as my internet bill which, has it for any game i own.
I think what people aren’t getting here, or are purposefully forgetting isn’t that people are remembering certain fighting games… what they are remembering are (windows of time) in certain fighting games lifespan. Sure we’ve got all these Vega/fuerte/Elena jab stuff that we can point to as not being part of the oldschool philosophy. But that isn’t really what people are getting at. That isn’t the point they are making. Fuerte was hated. ST Vega was hated and soft banned in Japan for a long time as was sagat. Elena jab BS was hated. What people are referring to are when games played like the valle versus daigo ryu sf4 mirror. Still one of the greatest sets of all time and it really doesn’t look like we will ever get that sort of gameplay back.. and I think this is what people are mad about. It doesn’t matter that old games had this crap here there and everywhere, what matters is that at the time these things were unknown or at the very least not used very much which means that the overall experience was one that was quite different from the experience nowadays… and it’s THE EXPERIENCE that people are after. I don’t care about unhappy Bunga if there are decent counters to it… but if beating unga means I need a PHD in “read a nomics” to beat it, it just ain’t fun. This goes for divekicks, walldives, EX DR, high and low crossups that look the exact same but hit on different sides and lead back into one another etc etc etc
neutral is the friends we made along the way
While those are good examples, Vega in ST and Yun in 3S are exceptions to the rule. Now just about everyone can skip, not just one or a small handful of characters.
You're right. Justin is being disingenuous.
Great point. The games have obviously changed, but new gameplay styles have more to do with new tech and widespread knowledge than gameplay mechanics. These were great examples shown as well.
It is indeed a very fun game, same as you this is the first cod for me that made me wanna try to get all the cameos and attachments
Why do people like to see aggression and situations where one forces their way though? I am genuinely curious.
Personally I get hyped when I see someone outplay someone else. When someone has to put in a lot of effort.
I think a big part of it is also being confident in your options. Knowing what your tools are and how they work gives you that confidence to just get in there, ya know?
GET GUD and UNGA BUNGA CRAZY
Got it Justin Wong
The examples shown from old games were one character not the system. Also we agree they were broken so why make a whole game around something we agree is unfair? Clearly that would be going in the wrong direction.
He is showing alpha's custom combos skipping neutral tho, thats a universal mechanic
Also we make whole games around it cause neutral is boring af
@@Benxall neutral is the fun part of playing and watching these games
Yep, most examples where people go "Oh, look at Honda's sumo! He neutral skipping!" are being facetious cause yeah, it's one unique character and/or move. The entire game isn't built around the it. These are just moves with offer better movement, but they are predictable, and I'm sure in time players will adjust to the new Vega spam as well. We don't have the game eating the other player's inputs because Blanka did his "neutral skip" ball.
I do agree that the knowledge and tools now are better, so players can go back and better exploit tactics to new effect... but those are likely going to be few and far between. Players can only break what the game gives them.
@@elfascisto6549
But the point of neutral is to get out of neutral in such a way that you have the advantage. These neutral skipping options are just faster ways to either do just that, or push your advantage once you've already attained it.
@@slimballs9650 playing neutral to me is actually playing the "game" part of the game. When you're not in neutral you're either just winning or losing. All the fun and mind games are at their peak during neutral, not as much when you're comboing or being comboed
My vote for most neutral-heavy fighting game would be Bushido Blade, or possibly Niddhog.
Divekick, it's either neutral or it's over
Samurai Showdown?
@@BMKidProductions Haven't had the pleasure of playing it yet. 😔
Vf has good neutral to blow up balance
Hellish Quart lol
Before there were one or two broken characters that did broken things that required some skill to unbalance the neutral, currently in street fighter 6 all characters can skip the neutral and play without thinking it has become massive for mediocre players because the game was created so that people without skill can have a chance against good players, something that didn't happen before. In short, they have reduced the skill gap
Agreed. Everyone wants to point to one or two egregious examples over like 20 years- meanwhile this is just what EVERY sf6 character gets.
If a mediocre player is against a much better one, having neutral skip isn't going to help him win.
Add to that that it is, as your point out yourself, a *universal* thing, and the whole argument fall apart. The better player also have access to it. The field is even.
There are stuff that need to be balanced in 6, but it's not a issue of Neutral Skip existing, it's a balance issue because some character's are too good at it. As Sajam (i think) said "No one is complaining about Zangief's or Manon's DR".
Just my two cents, I am no expert and does not claim that my opinion is the truth.
@@emperormegaman3856 He is correct, mediocre players have broken tools that are difficult to counter and easy to use, pro players have more difficulties than they should have to be able to defeat them, in other games that does not happen because they do not have tools that are so easy to use , that doesn't happen in other games with broken mechanics but more difficult to use
@emperormegaman3856 you are correct the game is just harder and people somehow think that means the worse players will win more?
@@Belive7heHype you believe that's what everyone's argument is. It's not. Sometimes you do change the margins of a better player winning, but that doesn't really matter In the grand scheme of things.
It's more that you just made a game where you forcefully skipped neutral where even you state it doesn't change much of anything for the new player. Aka you just dumbed your game down and you not only have the same issue you started with- but now a longevity issue of the top end of players not feeling like there's something much more to strive for like in sf4.
In all sf games blanka is in I can sit and charge press heavy kick or heavy punch to keep my opponent out. I can't really do that in sf6 cause if drive impact.
It's the practice-mode design. Games are made to emphasize 'tech' that can be done in single-player mode (traps and especially combo execution). Footsies and neutral can't be developed in the lab, so they're not that popular with a good part of the core audience
Fighting games have definitely tended towards more aggressive play lately, I think we can genuinely agree on that. But I think a lot of it is because theyre trying to appeal to new audiences. The old meme of "I didnt spend 80 dollars to not push buttons". New players like pushing buttons and being aggressive.
The community has also got a lot bitchier, and its annoying. I come in and out of the FGC because its just so tiring hearing about who needs a nerf, who needs a buff, constantly complaining about the mechanics, acting like theyre top 8 players where extreme balance really matters, thinking they understand balance but they dont, etc. People just need something to complain about I think, honestly. Its easier to get bodied online and blame the game than admit you got bodied.
This argument of "you're not top 8 so tiers don't matter" has always been false. All it takes is for the two players to be approximately close in skill, you will feel the difference between top tier and bottom tier.
Go play Lilly vs Luke, lemme know if you gotta be top 8 to feel that.
@@Choom89 I'm not saying balance never matters. If there's a big enough disparity between characters it does matter. But often there's much more contributing factors to a loss than just "ugh, broken character". You got out footsie, you couldn't deal with zoning, you dropped combos, etc. You're saying 2 players of a similar level in silver need to be worried about tiers? Nawh dude, not at all. Zangief is unilaterally one of, or the worst char in the game, but snake eyez can make him look absolutely broken against these characters everyone says are broken, and these obsession with tier lists only makes everyone's experience worse. Now casuals watch a video about how Luke is top 1 in the game or whatever, and surprise surprise, you run into a shitload of Luke from people thinking no matter their skill level they need to play top tier. The tier obsession is ruining the fgc
@@vangoghsseveredear "Tier obsession is ruining the FGC" I agree with this WHOLEHEARTEDLY!! It gets real annoying seeing people bring up Tiers in basically any discussion, using a character's Tier ranking to excuse someone somewhere finding them annoying to deal with {Potemkin as low tier in Strive, Sol in +R, etc.}, or how a character being low tier instantly makes them garbage that can't compete at all {Zangief being Low tier, Ryu being Mid-low tier}, when most if not every character is still good at the minimum level to where the specifics either don't matter or can be mitigated. Let's hope the tier obsession dies down soon.
thanks for saying it out loud Justin. Fighting games (and literally every game known to man) have some sort of tactics that are abused in a way that is outside the 'design' (w/e that means since games are just designed to be fun). Anime fighters have always had some sort of mechanic that lets you push your edge. when it was just a few characters that had those mechanics it creates an ultra high tier where nobody uses the other characters (Marvel,Smash,3rd strike,etc.) but if every character is fun and "busted" then its more balanced. Thats what yall are forgetting these newer fighting games are also 10x better balanced then the old ones. either every character sucks, or every character is fun. there is rarley an in-between.
i do agree that they are making things more beginner friendly, with some easier to learn execution. however I do think that there are plenty of "barriers to entry" tech skills in all of them too. they just take a little more thinking outside the box. The unga part I think is just determined by if the game is good or not imo, Melty Blood has some really good ideas mechanically allowing players to go In, but still have some options on defense that aren't always just guessing.
I’m a casual I only understood 2% of what he talked about nonetheless pretty entertaining
I’m not against neutral skipping being an element in fighting games , in fact it’s needed but the problem is homogeneous universal neutral skips being part of the core game design. It makes for very little incentive to learn spacing or oki and stuff because the meta just becomes pressure or bait.
Except that's also not true.
Guile, despite how boring people find him, plays his own game and can easily win rounds without relying on DR.
Sim, Gief, and Manon have horrendous DRs so they can't really play that game either.
Even characters with good DRs like Lily and Jaimie need to give up oki to get their buffs, so they rarely go into shimmy, throw loop flowcharts.
And then there are the install kids like Blanka and Rashid, whose gameplan is to build 2 meters then activate their insane lv2s and mix up opponents to death.
The real issue of SF6 is that 1 million pot at the end of the rainbow making pros stick to the same characters cause anything other than top 5 is a massive disadvantage.
I’m not talking about sf6 in particular
@@mappybc60971. Lily is a grappler and doesn’t have a good DR.
2. Yes most of the pros are picking top 5s. But currently, 14 out of the 20 characters are represented in Capcom Cup.
Why do people allways point to tournament results when 90 percent of the time people are speaking on ranked and player lobbies
@@finnmarr-heenan2397 reread “Mappy’s” last sentence. He directly mentions the tournament
In my opinion Street Fighter 4 was the best street fighter of all time. The most exciting iteration to watch and play. I felt you could express your individual style of play with the cast or characters and while there are always optimal combos it didnt feel canned at least moat of the time. It was like watching marvel in a way where players would make the character their own extention of themselves.
I feel that way about SF6. The drive meter gives you a lot of flexibility. I feel like it’s is an amalgamation of sf3-5. You can pick and choose how you want to play.
@@kiuju2k Lol, you just have a crush on the new Cammy design.
I wish there was a movement towards making it clear that something is punishable instead of sweating it out in microsoft excell in order to know something is punishable.
The Age of neutral is over, there is only one direction and it is forward
I disagree, you just have to force your opponent to respect your options like anti-airs, pokes, invincible moves, and punishes then they will have to start playing neutral.
Neutral happens when just yolo’ing in doesn’t work and approaches have to be more patient and calculated because just going forward results in getting hit or being forced to make a mistake.
Hold forward to block.
even if footsie are getting designed out, its bad to design a true asymetrical fighting game around it. Now if you are play a game where it is always a mirror match like the game "Footsies" thats when neutrals become fun. All the different hitboxes and frame data being calculated means you have to find other ways to get in that are more "off the cuff".
Games might be skewing a little too heavy towards rushdown, but look at SF 6. if you asked people who play the game, almost everyone wants to nerf ken and JP, but for the complete opposite reasons. To me, that means they nailed character design in that game. The best rushdown character, and the best zoner are the two best characters. They dont need nerfs, instead the other characters need help getting to their level.
MK1 became a nerf fest and i havent touched it since before thanksgiving. They caved too much to community pressure. I still play sf6 even though the only updates are new characters. Also, too frequent of updates leads to having to relearn stuff about matchups. i work over 40 hours a week and dont wanna be forced to lab for a couple days every patch when a patch drops every couple of weeks.
Back in the day it was only a few problem characters like yun or vega. Now it's every single character because of stuff like drive rush.
It’s still character specific tbh people complain about deejay’s and not manon’s for a reason.
@@MrCrimsonftw Ken juri dj jp blanka chun li kimberly cammy luke rashid jamie all can be in your face in like 2 seconds with drive rush which is completely skipping neutral.
@@blue42goowrong
Cammy, rashid, and blanka have short DRs that barely reach at round start and can get checked by 2MK of 90% of the cast
@@V2ULTRAKill no but even if thats granted thats only 3 characters. thats still a problem
@@blue42goo thats just out of what you listed
More than half the cast has a bad DR in neutral, with cammy having the single worst DR not on a grappler, which only works because she has two built in neutral skips
I think primarily people are able to more consistently go into bigger damage and crispy movement because both combos and input leniency have been made more generous execution-wise. Characters have always been able to do these things and take over games. Most people just sucked shit at doing them because they were harder. Now they're easier. Now everyone can do them. Now offense in most fighting games looks nutty. Always has been though
Games always had bullshit for sure, but I do think all the new games adding a somewhat similar mechanic is a bit egregious lol. And to play devils advocate, two of those examples were character specific stuff. Alpha activation is 100% f*ck neutral mechanic for sure tho lol
Ive hated that phrase this fighting game dont got neutral? What does that even mean?? It different sure but how it supposed to be? If you wanna play street fighter like that neutral play that fine if not that fine. But if i dont wanna play that slow pace neautral ill go play strive for something faster. Neutral is different in every fighting game not one neutral is the same as others.
Very well said!
i'm sure there will be a figjhting game that is gonna bring it back to the roots simply for the casual crowd who wants that slower pace and wants to understand what's going on.
like today there's a lot of complexity right out of the box that translates into simplicity when you get to a certain level because it has been distilled and boiled down to a very set way of playing.
but i can see a very simplistic fighting game come around that increases in complexity with player skill because of mindgames and micro managing pros and cons of each move.
like really you don't need a lot for a fighting game, you can literally have a one button fighting game.
The drive rush and the corner grab loop are such weak mechanics that players without skill can abuse them and make really good players suffer, something that does not happen in 3rdstrike, since a good player is not going to lose to someone mediocre who is below his level, something that you experienced when Hayao destroyed you with a low level and in that encounter you used the best character in the game, also the genei jin requires skill to make the optimal combo that generates the greatest damage
No cause a good player knows how to tech throws
@@Serenade3s If they had been playing in street fighter 6, Justin Wong would have defeated Hayao using the drive rush and the grappling loop, since Hayao defeated Wong by his great neutral game.
3rd Strike is majorly unbalanced however, there are many characters that are multiple tiers beyond the rest of the cast & a couple of characters that are joke tier (especially with particular supers). While 3rd Strike is popular now (because the parry mechanic is unique & the roster is so different) but in reality it never had the big popularity when it first came out, thats why it never really got the Turbo/Super/Ultimate editions that also acted as a balance patch.
@QWE-hn8hj I wasnt really speaking about arcades but consoles. According to some stats i found, SF 3rd strike had around 180k sales. By comparison SFA had 500k, while SFA3 had 1mil sales. Its evident that SFA3 just destroyed 3rd strike in popularity, and they have only 1 year difference.
@@GeoGyf I don't think it's right to measure the quality of a game just by its popularity, alpha killed the neutral with its custom combos, I think a lot of people don't like 3rdstrike just because it's a game with a lot of mental game with the neutral game, but to people like to attack without thinking
I think that is a good take on neutral, great video concept as well.
This will get buried in the comments and is probably a stupid idea but perhaps a way to nerf the unga a bit (in SF6) is to add a wake-up move of rolling (Parry+quarter circle in the direction you wish to roll) at the cost of a a half or maybe one drive bar. It would have only a few invincible frames (and cannot be cancelled out of) but would allow an avenue of resetting or recovering a bit of momentum of the match.
Again, said roll would only be available on wake-up.
Less unga. More Bunga.
You just described tech rolling at the cost of meter. There are strategies to catch ukemi.so I do t know if that would solve anything or not . Does sf6 have delayed wake up as an option ?
You can only roll back so far before you hit the wall.
That's alot of meter just for a bit of distance that might not matter
Unpopular opinion: Fireballs when used repeatedly (no, I’m not the scrub who calls zoning “projectile spamming”) are often basically just as much “neutral skips” as any of the aggression mechanics mentioned, it’s just that they can skip neutral in the direction of keepaway rather than rushdown.
Aggression mechanics on the other hand generally move your hurtbox forward along with your hitbox so it makes sense they’re higher reward, because they’re higher risk (mess up and you basically served your hurtbox to your opponent on a plate to eat the biggest punish they can muster).
3:25 Now I feel insulted, as this was my common play style with Vega. But at least now I know I was able to compete with the world's best, even though I consider myself a complete noob in fighting games
Drive Rush and whatever Vism it was called in 5 is just a lazy mechanic TBH, it ends up with players doing the same combo over and over again.
Overall in any fighting game players will use the optimal combos whereas in sf6 I feel like I can create nearly any combo I want.
Optimal combos are always repeated because why would you not pick the best option?
that’s the mentality behind it and why it gets repetitive.
“Why would you not pick the best option every time ?” To express yourself. To test your opponent
@@finnmarr-heenan2397 im referring to a hit confirmed combo but yeah trust me im not that optimal combo guy I go for style points.
the real reason for combo variety is if you need a variety of different combos based on various variables so you dont see the same combo as often
also if the game looks good and is well paced the combos arent as obstructive to the experience, but i have noticed that combos in sf6 feel like a slog
Core A Gaming made a whole video on this. Games have neutral skipping tools so as to be more offensive, which is spectator oriented. It’s a marketing tool.
Keep the content coming!
If you want neutral, play Smash or platform fighters. Spacing and custom combos are key
The death of neutral just makes every match and character look and play the same. Maybe I'm old but I miss when a good match looked like a game of chess instead of a game of Hungry Hungry Hippos.
Go play chess then I want to do things
@@mlalbaitero they sound like someone who picked O. Sagat and played "neutral"
just a bunch of kens now, doing the run v move from 5
At the other extreme, go watch any old ST match with Sagat or Guile - endless fireball wars weren't "true" neutral or chess anymore than Claw wall dives. There's still plenty of chess in modern games, and old games had plenty of unga.
@@nickfry7839are you saying there were never unga Ken's yolo DP'ing in the 90s? Human nature hasn't changed, casual Ken plays always found ways to unga and always will.
i personally feel neutral isnt dead simple because at most levels of fg’s, neutral isnt even played and at high level there’s so many options and so many thoughts going on that you’re forced into a neutral state. shimmies and footsies are very situational now though considering how many full screen/ rushdown mechanics and attacks are in fg’s now.
Considering that for most matches, neutral is a short phase of a round. Once you get a knockdown theres no reason to give the opponent space
@@luisbo3 that depends on the game/matchup, in a game like sf where shotos have invincible reversals it could be an rps game to go for oki
@@acclyme im not suggesting to go ham after a knockdown, there are ways to go about oki.
@@luisbo3 of course im just providing counter points, there’s honestly no right answer to this, there’s too much nuance in fgs
I agree with a lot of the points! I’m much older now and I’m much better at understanding the games than when I was younger
It’s a figment of our imagination…SONIC BOOM!
I wouldn't be anywhere near I am at playing the game without youtube tutorials.
Twitter brother really included SamSho as a "unga boonga" and "natural skip" game lol
So what I’m hearing is - the unga always existed, we just needed time to uncover it
It was only during the pandemic that we discovered custom combos in Alpha 2/3. after that it was all over.
It's not dead it's just full screen now
Personally I think people have issues with how most modern games have built in mechanics to just skip neutral or to just reward the losing player. Now some older games had some of this bullshit like alpha games custom combos but not many players developed those skills.
Great video from one of the greatest 👍
The game is just very different from what I enjoy in a fighting game, as a result I got no interest in playing it, especially when legacy options exist (although not quite to the extent of which they should exist. No legacy tekken, legacy sf is done only by the community etc.)
let the kids have their fun, but that shit is boring to me and I don’t respect being good at what they do .
@@finnmarr-heenan2397 I mean they aren’t playing for us to respect them, im not gonna pretend sf6 is an easy mode game far from it, my point is that the new games being super different is fine IF there are legacy options, unfortunately capcom and namco are scum when it comes to this aspect
I know they don’t play for my approval that’s why I say let them have their fun, it’s just not very hype seeing incredibly similar clips of the universal mechanic being used as intended .
neutral = wallback to wait for the other guy to press first so you can punish
in my opinion fighting game terms must be fluid. such as neutral. not even through generations but even match to match. vega vs vega in st. it may look silly and i agree its not what i picture when i hear neutral but i see nothing to gain from being so rigid when it comes to something as silly as fighting game terms. half the time the fgc has more than one definition for half the lingo anyway. jm went into more detail regarding lingo as well.
The distillation of mechanics happens in every game.
I know this may be a stupid take: All games should play like KOF 98.
It’s a great game
¿What is unga? 🤣🤣🤣 The thing I hate the most in the last three SF is the input readings. For some reason these games are extra sensitive and they accept any direction as an order, so you get lots of unintentional moves, supers, specials... You can just shake the stick and press a button and the character will make some special, it is super frustrating. The other playability differences, the mechanics and such... Well, I guess you can't make a game nowadays where you can win a match just with 6 or 7 blows like in the original SFII...
unga is doing a mechanic that allows you to skip a neutral footies situation, drive rush is the best example in street fighter 6, force positive frames with no real counter, force 50/50s, force throw loops etc..
@@tylerbacoka4248 Thanks
There's a difference between neutral and footsies imo
All fighting games have neutral but not all games have footsies
SF6 has a huge emphasis on footsies with punish counters on whiff and no proximity block, but everyone chooses to complain about drive rush lol
There is also a difference between fun neutral and neutral. A lot of modern games lack the balance between pressure and the dance to land the first hit. It’s either one or the other .
@@finnmarr-heenan2397 fun is subjective
Obviously it’s why a discussion is even taking place.
@@finnmarr-heenan2397 if it was obvious you wouldn't have made your previous comment
One cool thing is that kinda by proxy, if modern games have the aggressive pressure extending, neutral ending mechanics being universal, gives more room in a character's base toolkit for actual neutral tools, that just come with more risk than they would in a slower game. Seeing some older examples of this like sf alpha custom combos basically becoming blue rc/ veil off is really cool to me.
It's stupid to say "old games weren't like this yadda yadda." But what is more important to note is that these "Neutral skip Unga bunga" things are now universal mechanics. To me, that homogenized outlook is what sucks, so I tend to play older games or KoFXV.
Ah yes, ST the most technical fighting game ever. Meanwhile, in reality two guys in grand finals literally jumping and mashing grab like their life depended on it.
Thank you 👆⚡ boom. ST is beyond overrated and it's not even the best SF2 game
ST the most praised game for it's fair and balanced gameplay by people who weren't actually all that good.
So much Kusoge level **** in that game
"Unga bunga" = Not playing defensively 90% of the time? Sign me up
I have Tekken 8 and I have to say, it’s a lot of fun. But I notice that it takes a lot less skill to play as Tekkens 1-5 ever did.
Things have just gotten easier and more about getting a wider audience through simple and offensive focused. The problem is that these games have little staying power.
It’s a shame to see fighting games being more and more dumbed down when compared to Street Fighter II Turbo, Samurai Shodown II, Virtua Fighter 5, Dead or Alive 2… King of Fighters 95. Of course Street Fighter III: 3rd Strike.
I’m fully against simple controls. I hate the dumbing down of fighters. Old games continue to dominate, despite the older and more limited technology.
"neutral skip" is the derpiest term. These moves do NOT "skip" neutral, they literally occur OUT OF neutral. Skip footsies, MAYBE. But not neutral.😊
I used to make jokes about neutral skipping and never realized people said it unironically
this goes for any online games. mmos, fps, racing and so on. the longer that type of game is out and popular, the more tech, knowledge, skill and what ever else gets improved. which also mean if u take a break from the game for a month or more, it may feel like a completely different game when u get back to it.
i remember when i play codMW2 everyday. so much fun so much to learn and it feels like every1 is getting better slowly. now i try to play a cod game and the movement, acc, map layout is all mastered in the first week. i sadly just cant keep up with the progression ppl make in games now.
I feel like there should be more risk when it comes to oki and continuing pressure.
Which is funny because a year ago people were *****ing about offense being too unsafe in games.
FGC literally doesn't know wtf they want
@@boredomkiller99 note that I said oki and *continuing* pressure. If you have safe ways to engage, aka neutral skips, then being able to keep that momemtum is a bit much. Make it so that we have safe ways for the defender to force neutral so we can breathe a bit.
why should i be at risk after i won neutral and knocked down my opponent?
@@nicorobin7762 because you already did a full combo and got your reward. The easier neutral is to win, the less rewarding it should be.
@@zetachaox post your rank
There's definitely still footsies, unless the chars in the matchup have neutral skip moves. This is especially true in high level. Thing is, neutral skip moves is a tool that a char can have. A good cast shud have no chars with the same toolset. Some may be able to skip neutral, some may have bs mix, some may have bs oki, some may have bs dmg. I think a lot of developers forgot about that and nowadays high percentage of full cast have some sort of neutral skip.
The good thing is even with a shift towards a more offensive playstyle, a lot of neutral skip moves in modern games are still very punishable
The neutral skip moves are universal system mechanics in modern fighting games --- that's the core of a complaint.
A couple of gorilla characters with moves like that whose kits are balanced around it is one thing. Everyone having them stapled via universal system mechanics is another.
Thing that destroy game fundamentals, should probably be considered for change.
I still would have to disagree about people just being worse. It's unequivocally much more difficult to do combos 3S let alone in SF4 than it was in 6, and getting big damage usually involved reasonably frame accurate inputs. At least 3S had you parry high or low, this game is a universal 1 button parry for anything
Footsies are going to be still in all newer and older fighting games if there's a punch or kick button at least. 🔘✅
Yeah, I think footsies and learning game mechanics go hand in hand.
Kind of missing the point here Justin. Old games werent 100% footsies due to certain character existing that had neutral bypass like SF2 Vega and SF3 Yun. But what the Tweet is saying is that now games make neutral skipping tools universal to all characters as a mechanic, which is correct. Perfect example is DNF Duel where most of the cast can skip neutral with just pressing big full screen buttons and you cant do anything about it. The lowest tier character in that game was Launcher, why? Because she was the only character who HAD to play neutral.
Because games today strive for balance, older games didn't that's why tier system back then was much more marked than today where characters are designed with viability in mind.
Well all the unbalanced old games are still great and all these competitive minded esports games are boring like 70 % of the time
@@finnmarr-heenan2397 Pretty much. when you lower the skill ceiling so much, everyone, mid to pro players, will just do the same thing and theres barely any variety. I barely even watch FG tourneys anymore ever since SF5 after seeing how boring it was compared to 4.
I miss the days when a dark horse out of nowhere pull some super sick stuff in a match and the moment gets cemented in history. Those moments will never happen again with the way modern games are designed.
I really have a bit of a different take of it. Why say that there's no neutral if there's always a neutral, just needs a different approach. So called "neutral skips" are also part of the neutral that add up to mental stack. Hondas neuch without headbutt is not as good, but saying that Honda doesn't play neutral because of it is a bit wrong, cause he still needs to figure out a way to make it land (sf6 Honda). So like if he does heabutt fullscreen it's reactable and you can jump back to punish. So i think neutral should be viewed as a unique thing for each game rather than specific definition. Every character has effective range and different tools you got to play around and that's what makes it exciting.
Edit: forgot to mention. Some characters also require meter to skip neutral. I think then neutral is defined by whether you let them build that meter or not.
Blanka punishes Vega in S.T when he wall jumps. Just heavy blanka up ball. Correct me I'm wrong.
Fighting games are moving to these super aggressive mechanics because the fact is most people want to see slugfests, not chess...and the fact is most players CAN'T play chess and don't care to learn. Looking at comments throughout youtube, twitch and reddit and it's painfully obvious that the greater population of fighting game fans really have no concept of core fundamentals whatsoever. So devs continuing to prioritize these things would be shooting themselves in the foot as far as aiming for profits by catering to a smaller percentage of people who want intelligence-based play vs hyper-agressive, guess-focused mechanics.
It's not fun for most spectators because they don't understand what they're looking at, much like how watching a boxer like Mayweather would look "boring" to casual fans. The flipside is, it gets boring fast. I like playing SF6 but the times i do lose i rarely feel outplayed, and watching it even at the highest level has become stale (to me) because the meta is pretty linear.
call me chaotic neutral the way i play guity gear xrd
lol Ayo I like hod you said u go back to games u never played before
Cool conversation. Have you ever considered writing a book?
Sf 6 is a blessing, sfv is a drug poisoning
And I’m happy it didn’t come to Xbox for that exact reason
Even in a game like CVS2 it can come down to how the players play. In the US back in the mid 2000s the US players tended to play CVS2 rather defensively. Today though when you watch Big One/Game Newton Japanese CVS2 stuff those players are playing very aggressively in a game that was known for being defensive with lots of defensive options.
all began with people whining about motion input. ''hadoken motion is too hard to input''...now one button is enough.. pretty sure that in the next SF game people will be able to do 1 frame link combo by turning a steering wheel to the left. We are in the ''assist era'' of competitive games and it's really sad imo
I agree with what was said but that doesnt make climbing out of platinum w ryu any easier. Capcom pls buff ryu 😭
Samsho is the greatest and most slept-on modern fighter imho.
I don't necessarily agree. There are definitely more deliberate aggressive mechanics and you can see the difference between that and the more "accidental" versions of it. The deliberate mechanics are usually more universal and not character specific and you can see it with other mechanics (i.e. less defensive options, balancing, etc.).
Eh we generally have more defensive mechanics now then before
You have more defensive options now more than ever, issue is the old games make you think there's more defensive options due to the lack of knowledge and less available information than now.
wait I thought we always knew that custom combos were busted