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I think an interesting video idea would be "Moves that are completely different on different platforms/ports", I'd like if others also contributed to this. An example that comes to mind is T. Hawk, in the regular version of SSF2: The New Challengers, his MP throw has some recovery after the throw so you can't abuse it. But in the SNES verion, it has absolutely NO throw recovery. This lets you do T. Hawk shenanigans (this may also apply to other 16-bit versions, but I haven't tested). Another example that comes to mind is Karnov, his balloon is completely busted in regular Karnov's Revenge, but when it came time to port it to Super Famicom (Mizoguchi Kiki Ippatsu), it's busted in a different way. The air version of balloon is the same as the arcade version, but if you perform it on the opponent's wakeup right above their head, they can either get hit or blocked multiple times, and that can lead into a combo (that's not to mention the amount of infinites characters have, Mizoguchi, Yungmie and Chelnov).
I like to imagine there was a dev who genuinely thought swiss cheese was a great move idea and forever has to live in the shadow of everyone saying "this move is so bad it must have been an intentional nerf"
Beserker Rage being a mashing move along with his install super being Down-down 2 buttons, Wolverine just has some weird blocks to his wave dash and plink dash.
@@dangerousdays2052i get logan means that he’s puncturing a bunch of whole in his opponent with his claws but like Swiss cheese has a few large holes and not many small holes. Sponge cake would honestly be a better similie but wolverine’s schtick isn’t usually the brainy or wordsy type to be fair
I was really upset with Swiss Cheese until I did a combo with Doom and Wolverine, where the audio clipped and I got "BOW DOWN BEFORE ~~ SWISS CHEESE!" as an audio clip. I hadn't laughed that hard in a long time.
@@zeywopwhat are you talkint about. Plink dash wasn't "discovered" during the Umvc3 era. Plinking wasn't only for dashing. It had also been a thing in SF4.
The Dan nerf is extra cool because it also adds to his character. He looks shocked when he does it, like “I DID THAT????” It shows that he has a lot of potential, but doesn’t have the skill to tap into all of it.
A little bit of a tangent, but my favourite instance of "Dan is secretly godlike" is Kage. All of Kage's normals and Specials are scarily close to "perfected" versions of Dan's lazier/goofier versions of moves. Since Dan was also rejected by Gouken for being too revenge-motivated, I like to interpret this as saying that Dan's self-completed Saikyo Style is actually some juvenile form of pure Satsui no Hadou.
@mythosinfinite6736 I don't think it's canon at all but, I remember seeing Dan start to do the Raging Demon in a comic once. Not the joke version in Marvel, the actual Raging Demon. But he tripped over a rock so didn't land it.
@@whotfisKy Yeah, that was in one of the Udon comics. He was about to do it to *Sakura* after tapping into the Satsui No Hado for the first time, but tripped over her backpack. The page before him tripping make him genuinely look super intimidating, Akuma type stuff.
DIO from Heritage for the Future has "one of the most difficult gameplans of any character, requiring insanely high execution for his basic combos" but isn't just hard to play for that - he's also infamous for having multiple moves where you'd rather they didn't exist at all, because using them basically throws the game straight away if the opponent notices! This isn't exactly the same as these moves weren't put in to intentionally make him worse...but sometimes you might wonder! Here's a list of the worst offenders: - His grab is cinematic, but minus on hit and usually awards the opponent a free combo for landing it, making it only useful for finishing off opponents - His dashing heavy is good, but his other dashing options are minus on hit, meaning the opponent knows you're going to do the dashing heavy every time - His "checkmate" knife super is extremely versatile while Stand ON, but while Stand OFF it is one of the worst supers in the game, taking over a second to use - His "road roller" super is extremely punishable, to the point where its only use against a non bottom tier character is to punish an opponent using the road roller super in the mirror match - Dragon Punch input while Stand OFF gives DIO an invincible teleport with no recovery that is only really countered by a grab, but Stand ON locks you in place for over a second to do a weak ranged attack that's dodged by simply walking forward, and if your opponent punishes you during it, you are combo'd for 2x damage, basically immediately giving up the round
@@hanegawamidori4081 It is a tragedy indeed. HFTF has several notable grabs that aren't just minus, but punishable (Like DIO, but off the top of my head there's also both versions of Hol Horse and Khan) It's even worse because rolls are meant to be punished by grabs, meaning these characters have to just *let* their enemies roll through their attacks and do nothing about it, even if it should really be comically unsafe, because getting punished for them gives them a free combo instead of death Tldr tho: You right, only thing worse is Grabs punishable on hit
@@megamansoupreme7122Tbh I prefer the Guilty Gear way. All the grabs are knockdowns. You got a hit in, but you can't combo of it, nor are you punished for landing a hit
@@hanegawamidori4081 it would be one thing to be minus if they got to tech far away but there are a few moves like that makes both of you stay next to each other which is mind boggling.
@@SomeoneStoleMyHandle911 load up vanilla sf2 l, cps1, and try it. It's random, not half circle. You're thinking of later editions, like super street fighter 2.
I know it’s controversial to call it a fighting game, but Villager in smash ultimate was given a finisher to his jab combo which was a nerf. He used to be able to apply safe pressure up-close with his jabs, but now if he jabs he’s locked into the laggy finisher. He’s already a zoner so taking away his best melee tool was rough for him
This is a great example. Villager's jab used to be a pretty fun and unique tool. I have to believe the nerf was unintentional, because he wasn't exactly climbing up the tiers in Smash 4.
Another Smash example, giving Ryu his proxmity hard punch. His roundhouse is a great killing and zoning tool. The punch can... combo into input DP sometimes... Yeah there's basicly no time you'd ever want it over the kick.
Yoshi Egg Roll (side b). Has been pretty much useless since its introduction aside from a custom special in Smash 4. Without it, both b reversing neutral b and angling his egg throw would be easier.
@@varenoftatooine2393 Well then the creator of Smash is a snob because he himself has literally said on multiple occasions that Smash is not a fighting game.
Something you didn't mention about Zangief's Tundra Storm is that it uses the same input as Zangiefs Green Hand from USF4. Green Hand filled an important hole in Zangiefs matchups while Tundra Storm does almost nothing even in it's ideal environment. Players had also been asking for Green Hand to return since SFV launched, the move sharing inputs was basically out of spite.
Honorable mention: In FighterZ, they gave android 18 a variation on her special where she calls 17 which is done by holding the input instead of tapping, which is annoying to sometimes accidentally do as it will not connect with the misinput
Isn’t that a buff since I heard 18 can do the versions on air on the ground and vice versa which if you’re a pro and don’t get mis-input a lot that’s a good thing right?
@ZAPRST8879 I have yet to see any combos with the ability to do so. Maybe a set up or 2, both for most 18 players I watch, they call it an annoyance and wish it didn't get added. Technically a buff, but it also messes with people who already had the inputs.
@Tr0lliPop Yes again, it most certaintly is a "buff" (a useless one but a buff) but it fits this video. Moves that mess with a character, half the time because of input differences. A bunch of good 18 players have stated their distaste for the change despite it being a buff
@@ExonZenoTwoTheElectricBoogaloo no it doesn't fit. the video is looking for moves that made the character worse. 18 didn't get worse, you just had to adjust to a new input. swiss cheese makes wolvie worse because he can't do stuff he was able to do before (it messes with plinks and mashes)
Potemkin in GGST actually has another pretty good example, that being kara-canceled Back Mega Fist (kBMF). (yes I would argue this counts) For those unaware, you can kara cancel Pot's specials with 6K, giving them extra forward momentum. In the game's beta, this turned out to be especially strong with Back Mega Fist, which is a move that gives up space but hops over many moves and is great on hit and block (+4 on block, goes into c.S on hit). Kara-canceling it, however, meant you could get those properties without giving up any space, which they didn't really want (for comparison, the regular Forward Mega Fist was not only punishable on block, but, at the time, minus on _hit_ too). They decided to nerf this by actually giving the kara-canceled version special properties without touching regular BMF, effectively turning it into a new move. They gave it more recovery (now -2 on block and can't start combos on hit), but as compensation it also got extra damage and a ground bounce on aerial hit. So he lost some potency on one of his best neutral tools, but in exchange he got a high-execution but very rewarding combo extender. EDIT 2024-10-30: and they're completely throwing the entire mechanic away in season 4. thanks arcsys!
Even more fun is that outside of the infinite Dan's red fireball is actually a small buff since it knocks down! Between that and the lore implications that Dan's more powerful than he looks it was genuinely a masterclass in updating a character from Capcom
@@k96man No, it's because you'd get tundra storm when going from holding down>back to doing a micro walk in to SPD all the time after they added the move. It quite literally was a nerf. I mained Gief at the time and I even saw clips of Itabashi accidentally getting tundra storm when trying to micro walk in to light SPD. I remember reading the patch notes and knowing exactly why they did it but still wishing they had just removed it.
@Skugfisk I remember seeing it in Gief's sf6 move list and groaning. This pos move made it but not green hand? Heck, even flex would be more useful than tundra storm.
Guile was nerfed in Street Fighter 2 Champion and Hyper Editions, by adding an extra hit to the medium and strong Flash kick. That means if you don't hi the flash kick deep enough,, the medium and strong versions will only hit once, and not knock down, leaving you wide open for a punish. Also Sagat's Tiger Knee was super quick that could leap frog over fireballs in Champion and Hyper Edition of Street Fighter 2 , but was nerfed Super Street Fighter 2 and Super Street Fighter 2 turbo by making it slower, less priority, and much harder to successfully leapfrog fireballs or combo into uppercut.
@@X2011racer Tiger Knee certainly was in champion Edition and playable too as Sagat was playable. I played Sagat in Champion Edition in the arcades, that's how I know.
This video is quite fascinating, thank you for creating and sharing. On the Wolverine in Marvel 3 point it doesn't really nerf his combos, it hits his movement. If you plink dash to move quickly in the game that input overlaps with mash moves, and the addition of Swiss Cheese limited the rate at which he could move across the screen.
It's extra bad because Wolverine has the same issue that Ryu has where he has an install super on down down two buttons, so wavedashing can get you to do berserker charge accidentally. Berserker charge is much better than Ryu's install, but you still dont want to throw away meter by accident. Also, why does Wolverine get these dumb nerfs to his movement when characters like Magneto are just twerkin' around all over the screen way faster than someone like Wolverine ever could?
Well, plink dashing was only discovered a good bit after the move was added, meaning it wasn't an intentional thing at all in this regard. Still did fuck it up, but it wasn't the main point since at that time it didn't exist in their eyes
@@megamansoupreme7122 At least here in NorCal people were talking about plink dashing in Vanilla which is certainly before Swiss Cheese. Unsure how much Capcom knew when of course.
@@isiceradew716 Hmm... Were they talking about it before or after UMvC3 released? Perhaps they went back to Vanilla and it still worked there (Do realize this is only a theory, a guess, and not an attempt at assigning truth or whatnot)
@@megamansoupreme7122 I remember The Gagaguy told me to learn to plink dash near the end of vanilla and I failed to listen to his advice for like 3 years, then when I finally did learn, it substantially improved my QoL while moving around in the game.
In Blazblue one of Kokonoe's nerfs in Chrono Phantasma 1.1 was that her 236C (freeze ray) gained an automatic super that would come out and do zilch damage wasting 50 meter. The reason they did this is that Kokonoe's 236C was used in a lot of her unblockable setups.
Plink dashing wasn't discovered until a little ways into UMVC3, after Wolverine already got Swiss Cheese. That being said it did have that effect in practice.
I'm actually pretty impressed that you were able to find 7 of these. Adding moves is definitely an unconventional method for nerfing characters. I agree that the SF5 Dan red fireball is one of the most elegant nerfs I've seen in a fighting game. You've already covered it before in other videos, but tripping in Brawl is kind of an additional universal mechanic that nerfed every character. And it was intentional to try and get people to stop wave dashing.
Wavedashing wasn't in Brawl at any known point and by design, it wouldn't have been affected since it is an interaction of directional air dodging (removed in Brawl) with the ground. Tripping was probably intended to add to the party factor of randomness, but like you say, really nerfed some characters who depended on ground movement though inconsistently.
Ironically, had wavedashing been allowed by the mechanics of Brawl, tripping would have made it even more useful, since you don't actually dash in a wavedash, and therefore can't trip.
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Trading Green Hand for Tundra Storm was like a slap in the face. Capcom: hey, remember that cool movility tool you use to make your low tier grappler more reliable. Well, we got rid of it and we gave him a parry. Player: Ok...? Is like a Geese Howard's parry at least, Right? Capcom: ... Player: Right?
As a Smash Player I look at that counter and go ". . .So this is the true fighting game version of Counter Throw" If you don't know what counter throw is, it's really REALLY bad, Mii Brawler puts his arm in front of him, and you HAVE to hit him in this arm area. Meaning if they do a crouch attack, hit them from behind, above or below, it's a wiff. Sure it's REALLY strong....but the "grab" is so...pathetic, you literally have to be right next to Mii Brawler for it to connect, so if you're fighting a swordie which is...literally about 10-25% of the cast, don't bother. It doesn't even trigger against projectiles, no reduced damage, no nothing, you take the full force of it. Not to mention it will take the place of a 3RD PERMNANT JUMP. This is BIG and powerful in Smash Bros, it's comparable to having the ability to adjustable teleports in fighting games and can go in either direction, even behind your foe. [not the best analogy, but I think you can tell how powerful that would be] So how do we fix Zangief's Counter? [I am no fighting game pro...but uh just throwing this idea out there] Well I suggest turning it into a Smash-Bros like counter...kind of Allow it to counter overhead and high kicks, but not punches or projectiles. Give it a larger time where it's considered "active" because what the hell is those active frames. If it "wiffs" or doesn't trigger, then there is a decent ending lag, allowing your foe to punish, and to prevent spamming it. If it does connect, Zangief recovers faster than the foe, allowing him to follow up while being close up, which for a grappler is pretty powerful. Basically you have to be good at reading your opponent to connect this move, and if you suck at reading, well you're likely never going to connect this move.
@@Callie_with_a_bible This is why I mentioned Geese. He has a counter that depending of the input works on lows, mids or overheads regardless of punches or kicking (don't work on projectiles of course but that's why you use double repuken) and depending of the game you also have access to a command grab that works on knocked out opponents so it's basically a follow up to his counter move.
@@Slayerthecrow Well that just makes it wierd how they made Geese's counter good but the guy who is literally a grappler, a bad counter....really? Was Geese's counter really strong and they didn't want that to happen again but accidently went too far into the other direction to the point where the counter actively harms you instead of just being useless?
@@Callie_with_a_bible Yeah, that's the difference between Capcom and SNK. Geese is a beast that can play very well in defense and offense, just check what Namco did to him on Tekken 7, bro was very good. In KOF 15 is a very solid character but the game already has character with very complete move list so far that I don't his place on the tier list but he has always been a very good character over all.
Zangief's Tundra Storm definitely fits this topic. It originally had the same command as his green hand until it was patched out. If you had muscle memory from SFIV and didn't know they removed green hand in SFV, you'd be screwing over yourself every time you tried to green hand on reflex.
That Dan nerf is the most lore-friendly nerf I've ever seen. Dan not being able to control the kind of fireball he throws is the most Dan thing imaginable.
A funky example is dynamo roller in the third person shooter Splatoon made by Nintendo. When they added vertical flick rollers by jumping while you attack it was a huge nerf to dynamos playstyle of jumping into horizontal flicks (I'm sure this will mean nothing to most people who read it)
the first one with Dan is actually super cool and a really creative way to nerf a character but keep the sauce players found with him. Random even works for Dan since hes a Troll character
Oh god, *Tundra Storm*. And yes, I would get that a lot if I churned too quickly. They changed it to Down- Down HK in 6 which made it no longer a nuisance and it has niche use (Bison scissor kick lol).
Imagine a 'Gief player coming in, misinput their command grab and getting Tundra Storm, then the other player panic-mashes out a medium kick and "WHOOAAA, ZANGIEF WON WITH TUNDRA STORM, TUNDRA STORM JUST WON EVO". That person would have to retire from the FGC *forever*.
I dunno if anyone else has mentioned this yet, but part of the frustration with Tundra Storm was that originally it was a single punch button, so it would just accidentally come out if you were trying to do something like go into a crouching jab, which is why it was eventually changed to require at least two punches.
I mained She Hulk and lamp post is the absolute worst garbage. Not only does it mess up back throws and throw techs, but on hit it uses up your wallbounce so THE ONLY SUPER SHE CAN COMBO INTO loses 2/3 of its damage and its followup potential.
Fun fact, one of the directors for street fighter mentioned that he has the hands and feet bigger than a normal person’s to make it easier to see and react.
I mean Bison was broken in like first six whole games (discounting a billion editions along the way) arcade games were meant to milk you and Bison was the final boss
Great video. An example I always think of is Kazumi's wr1 being added in (I think) season 3 of Tekken 7. Deep dash jab would often come out as that instead. Considering how vital her jab was to her gameplan, it really made offense with her feel more sluggish when dashing in
Alpha 3 Sodom got 2 new moves that both overlapped with his slide input (fake tengu and his overhead counter), and both moves were awful and left him wide open if you got them by accident, which happened al the time.
Clark's Shining Wizard in KOF 2002 definitely feels like an example. It's a hitgrab that only works on crouching opponents,, on a character that makes heavy use of safejumps and jump-in pressure. The input, half-circle backward + punch, also overlaps with the input for Ultra Argentine Backbreaker (half-circle backwardx2 + punch), eliminating an easy shortcut for routing into the latter.
I'm loving these high concept deep dives. Really interesting stuff from a genre history standpoint. Here's hoping we'll see something as creative (and character appropriate) as Dan's red fireball nerf in future games.
Tekken pleb here. Steve Fox Lionheart stance made him both shittier and less fun (shocking right?) in Tekken 8. He feels like an EV car when he's supposed to be a 6 speed manual; forced options instead of player control. Great video as always sir :)))
It's a niche thing to say, but in the transition from smash 64 to melee they added the sideB specials, and I always thought yoshi was hurt by it, since holding to the sides while using his neutral b (where he swallows you and makes you an egg) helped controlling its movement in the air, and now when you tilt to the sides you get its sideB, eggroll, which has always been a garbage move in 20+ years of existence
Edit: you hold down and press jump, to jump without the spin attack. Old: Actually, you can jump without using it if you slash grounded then jump within one frame, or some trick i can't remember specifically but it isn't obvious, it's something you don't know about until someone tells you.
It's not that swiss cheese messes with combos, it's that the buffer in the game is so large that plink dashing or wave dashing too quickly counts as mashing, so swiss cheese limits wolverine's movement speed and options in neutral.
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Some games also change the way some combos interact with other characters. 1st game there was a combo that let you get a free hit cause it teleports you behind them. Next game if the character is blocking, You no longer teleport and you kinda freeze till you fall to the ground (Its like a 1/3rd jump so it just left you vulnerable instead of being OP)
As a Potemkin main, I agree. It also ruined my kara Garuda Impact setup. Before Heat Tackle came out, inputting 214236K~HS would lead into kara Garuda. Now it does kara Heat Tackle. Also I always charge by doing *CROUCH* block (1) so I don't walk back while charging. Now when I do (1)6 sometimes I get Heat Tackle by accident (I play with d-pad ps4 controller). Now I must make sure I input (1)46HS in order to get Hammerfall properly.
In Blazblue when Kokonoe was released she was slightly busted so along with a few nerfs they added an extra move to her fireball attack which burns half your meter if you have any making it a really bad combo ender if you are trying to save up for something.
Hell, even just the changed input from punch to kick still occasionally tricks my muscle memory and screws me. So many years of air SPD w/ punches and now it's kicks...fucks with your head. Anyway, I'm kinda hungry so I'm gonna grab some crayons.
In ST, Ken's Crescent Kick was also a move overlap nerf(not intended as one). The input is a quarter circle from forward to down and any kick button. During footsies, if you wanna throw out a sweep, chances are you're getting a Crescent Kick in stead.
When Tekken began integrating moves directly with sidestep motion, many old tech involving sidestep into fast normals were deleted. There were many players complaining about it. I don't remember all the specific cases, there were many across the board, but two affected my characters: - Lei's ss,4 used to be the "magic 4", just done after sidesteping an attack. After the change, it became a very stylish launcher with better potential but worse range. I loved it, but many other Lei players hated it a lot. - Xiaoyu's ss3 sidestep into the counter launching normal standing 3 became a much slower snake edge, wich lots of players considered a nerf too. In fact, they removed the ss3 sweep for tekken 8, changing it to a different input.
My favorite example is Glacius from KI 2013. In season 1, he had no dash and it was kind of a weakness but he's a very slow, long range zoner so it didn't hold him back too much. In season 2 they gave him dashes. You would think in a game with invincible backdashes this would be a buff, but his dashes are so horribly slow that the only time you ever see them is when you misinput. They're that bad.
Gotta say RQ, You're unfortunately incorrect about Heat Tackle. It's a rather powerful roundstart option and is insanely good against some of our harder MU's like Asuka or Millia, adding it hasn't actually done much of anything in indirectly nerfing hammerfall, plus We rarely ever actually use HF without meter, because it's SUPER punishable on block.
As a Potemkin myself, I didn't think about Heat Tackle getting input instead of Hammerfall, but not really an issue on stick or leverless, which I play, I guess. On the other hand, the amount of times I get a Mega Fisto when I just want to 6P... Oh boy
This made me wonder if we can get a video on buffs that were also indirect nerfs. One that I'm still salty about to this day, and heard nobody talk about, was a "buff" to Juri in SF4. Her ex dive kick originally would do all three parts on hit or block. So it was extremely easy to punish. And depending on where you hit, the auto follow-up might drop the combo. At some point, it was changed and you could control the follow-ups. However this came with massive damage scaling. Each follow-up added to the scaling. So using EX DK into Ultra II to punish a fireball or long recovery attack did way lass damage. I don't remember if the Super/Ultra never doing less than 50% started in sf4 or sf5
Potemkin in Strive actually got one of these in the season 3 update with the Forward Mega Fist changes. It now always did a soft knockdown, instead of doing a regular hit on grounded hit and a hard knockdown on air hit. This was regarded as a massive buff at first, but in practice it was actually a pretty harsh nerf overall. It was much better on normal grounded hit (getting a soft KD instead of being -2 on hit was a big deal), but it was much worse everywhere else. On grounded counterhit you had much worse combo followups, but even worse, losing the hard knockdown on air hit made it so much harder to go into his best oki since he didn't really have any other combo enders that gave a decently close knockdown like FMF did. Fortunately that last bit was remedied with later patches that gave him better knockdown combo enders (Heat Tackle in the season 3.5 patch, then 5H and Hammer Fall in the post-EVO patch more recently) so it did become a buff overall, but yea it was kinda rough there for a bit.
Another good example is Akuma close 5HK in 3rd Strike. cl.5HK didn't exist in 2nd Impact, which is already a plus since his normal 5HK is super good in 2nd Impact. The big kicker though was that not only did 5HK combo out of his divekick in that game, but it causes backturn, allowing for the only true confirm into Raging Demon in SF3. The damage was pretty scaled but even just divekick > 5HK xx Demon would do ~50% on most characters and give oki. cl.5HK was added in 3rd Strike SPECIFICALLY so that combo would not be possible anymore.
Captain Falcon in Melee (besides version 1.0.3) has this little issue where there's two neutral attack finishers you can pull off. The one that you'd actually want is called the gentleman, but the way the inputs read works is that an extra input is read when you let go of the last button for some reason. This causes Falcon to do the vastly inferior rapid punch attack instead of the gentleman, so you can barely pull the later off.
My Chun-Li got nerfed in SFV Season 2 when they made lightning legs work through mashing. Her bnb was st.MP, cr.MK xx SBK which was really tight on charge timing, so when I learned the combo in vanilla, I would push the st.MP and pull the stick down while mashing MK to get the link and then cancel as late as possible to get SBK. But since they added another input for lightning legs I would just get st.MP and then random lightning legs.
i feel like ibuki’s added roundhouse kick in 3rd strike counts too, it’s a good move but it makes it way harder to do the launching kick that made her so good in new generation and 2nd impact
I genuinely thought the dan red fireball was a perfect frame, like EWGF, and it was required to do MULTIPLE FRAME PERFECT fireballs to get it to work, but hey that's just as creative, love it
As someone who isn’t very savvy in Street Fighter, I feel very validated because I thought I was using Tundra Storm the wrong way in Street Fighter 6, but it turns out the move is just total dogshit.
I have one, although it's mostly a "change your playstyle and approach" thing: Mario's F.L.U.D.D. In Super Smash Bros. 64 and Melee, the Mario Tornado was a handy move as a get-off-me option in Free-for-alls, as well as a good recovery option in conjunction with his Super Jump Punch. His original down air was also good as a combo starter, too. Since Brawl, Mario no longer has the Mario Tornado as a special and has become his down-air move, which now pushes enemies and no longer has a vaccum effect like it used to. F.L.U.D.D. is considerably not that useful for anything other than a good edge guard strategy. In WWE Day of Reckoning, John Cena got a new move for downed opponents: the Knuckle Shuffle. In Wrestlemania XIX, he had a standard kick like most wrestlers. The problem with his Knuckle Shuffle is that it's ridiculously slow because of how long the animation is, meaning he can't deal as much damage as quickly as he originally could. This is not to be confused with his Five Knuckle Shuffle, which was his Momentum Shift move.
VSav Aulbath's Direct Scissors is a meme super that spends 3 bars to do a slow overhead that does a heavy normal's worth of damage. It's a reference to his old crHP and can only be accessed by picking the default color. It's on a 22 input, so getting it accidentally does sometimes happen. Picking alternate colors is recommended for helping to forget this move actually exists.
Worth noting that Tundra Storm was originally DP + one punch and had longer recovery on whiff. You'd get the move accidentally trying to walk up and press CrLP which is one of Zangief's best pokes, and then you died
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It was in there from the start, but Peacock's fake teleport definitely exists as a nerf to the character. She can call item drops with 214P, which you can delay by holding the punch button. When you release punch, the item drops. She has teleports: half a screen back, directly in front of the opponent, and directly behind them. It would be insane to be able to do teleport crossup mix from full screen with item drops, so... If you hold punch while teleporting, you get a fake teleport which doesn't move you but spawns a kinda crappy projectile directly under the opponent. This move absolutely exists just to remove item drop/teleport mix from the game.
In SF6 Tundra Storm actually has a use despite being super niche, as it can save Gief from burnout-stun setups if the character performing it against them has a mid kick for their DI, which is surprisingly a decent amount
Link's Remote Bomb is one I'd like to mention personally. Imagine you have a move in previous titles (especially the one prior to the game Remote Bomb debuted in) where you could do practically everything with it. Combo into massive damage or kill confirms, use it as a recovery tool, snuff out grounded attack options and projectiles by planting it on the ground, utilize it as a threatening edge-guarding option that can set up into a kill confirm, you name it, the Bomb could have done it. And you could have two of them out at the same time. The Bomb was one of the reasons Link could have arguably been a high tier in Smash 4 had it not been for the game's competitive scene croaking for several reasons. Now imagine either removing all of that utility or, at best, making that utility significantly worse in the process of making a brand new move that grants you the ability to make setup play and create extremely elaborate combos that are way too difficult to pull off for the reward of it. And you could only use one at a time. On top of being on a worse engine and Link getting an overall net nerf in terms of his kit, Remote Bomb was a slap to the face for the character's viability and peoples' interest in playing him. And while there are many reasons why both Young Link and Toon Link are not only more popular picks, but more viable ones, a major contributing factor to this is that they have bombs that actually do what the Smash 4 version of Link does, but on two extremely mobile and still-hard-hitting characters. Had Link kept his Bombs from Smash 4 to Ultimate, he would've arguably been a solid high-middle tier character, possibly above Toon Link. But alas, Link was given the single worst version of the Bomb special in the entire series (not counting Customs) and thus will likely never see high tier viability in Ultimate.
Surprised you didn't mention Sean from 2nd impact to 3rd strike! He did get a ton of nerfs, but one of them was them moving his FP to Cl.fp and gave him a new FP which was pretty darn bad. At least in 2nd impact he could press that FP fast and build meter like a lot of the other top tiers.
Kokonoe in Blazblue ChronoPhantasma is the biggest example for me. She had very powerful combos and an unblockable super, as well as a move that could freeze you in place. To nerf her, they gave her a new super that automatically triggers when she uses the freeze and she has enough meter, turning it into a forced combo ender.
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Can't wait for Manscaped to go the way of Dollar Shave Club.
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2:21 to ignore and leave 'em hairy
I think an interesting video idea would be "Moves that are completely different on different platforms/ports", I'd like if others also contributed to this.
An example that comes to mind is T. Hawk, in the regular version of SSF2: The New Challengers, his MP throw has some recovery after the throw so you can't abuse it. But in the SNES verion, it has absolutely NO throw recovery. This lets you do T. Hawk shenanigans (this may also apply to other 16-bit versions, but I haven't tested).
Another example that comes to mind is Karnov, his balloon is completely busted in regular Karnov's Revenge, but when it came time to port it to Super Famicom (Mizoguchi Kiki Ippatsu), it's busted in a different way. The air version of balloon is the same as the arcade version, but if you perform it on the opponent's wakeup right above their head, they can either get hit or blocked multiple times, and that can lead into a combo (that's not to mention the amount of infinites characters have, Mizoguchi, Yungmie and Chelnov).
I always figured JM could take hair on and off like a lego piece
😭
I thought he was born like that.👩🦲
@@juanrios4030i mean, arent all babies born bald?
just like sajam
Imagine JM with Sajam’s hair
I like to imagine there was a dev who genuinely thought swiss cheese was a great move idea and forever has to live in the shadow of everyone saying "this move is so bad it must have been an intentional nerf"
It's a tell when someone is mashing with wolverine
Beserker Rage being a mashing move along with his install super being Down-down 2 buttons, Wolverine just has some weird blocks to his wave dash and plink dash.
Swiss cheese IS in the combo trials sadly.
Swiss cheese isn't made by poking cheese with claws, it's made when the air in the curds creates bubbles in the cheese. 🙄🙄
@@dangerousdays2052i get logan means that he’s puncturing a bunch of whole in his opponent with his claws but like
Swiss cheese has a few large holes and not many small holes.
Sponge cake would honestly be a better similie but wolverine’s schtick isn’t usually the brainy or wordsy type to be fair
I was really upset with Swiss Cheese until I did a combo with Doom and Wolverine, where the audio clipped and I got "BOW DOWN BEFORE ~~ SWISS CHEESE!" as an audio clip. I hadn't laughed that hard in a long time.
LMFAO
thank you for that laughing fit dude, you made my morning
Ngl that would be an amazing producer tag at the start of a beat
ALL HAIL THE SWISS CHEESE!
@@CaptainTacoSauce00 LMFAO
th-cam.com/video/ZtKOnKPX_Zo/w-d-xo.htmlsi=Cq9RDd4nbfRw_oWM
Worth mentioning that swiss cheese makes plink dashing with Wolverine nearly impossible. Poor guy.
Pretty sure that was the main purpose behind the addition of the move, Wolverine had mad movement in MvC3
@@jefiroi plink dashing hadn't been discovered when they gave wolfy swiss cheese
it's definitely possible, just can't do it too fast
@@zeywopwhat are you talkint about. Plink dash wasn't "discovered" during the Umvc3 era. Plinking wasn't only for dashing. It had also been a thing in SF4.
no, wavedash is the one you cant do with him anymore (dashing then crouching)
but plink dash was discovered then and he can use it
The Dan nerf is extra cool because it also adds to his character. He looks shocked when he does it, like “I DID THAT????” It shows that he has a lot of potential, but doesn’t have the skill to tap into all of it.
A little bit of a tangent, but my favourite instance of "Dan is secretly godlike" is Kage. All of Kage's normals and Specials are scarily close to "perfected" versions of Dan's lazier/goofier versions of moves.
Since Dan was also rejected by Gouken for being too revenge-motivated, I like to interpret this as saying that Dan's self-completed Saikyo Style is actually some juvenile form of pure Satsui no Hadou.
It was a pretty good idea.
Ye
@mythosinfinite6736 I don't think it's canon at all but, I remember seeing Dan start to do the Raging Demon in a comic once. Not the joke version in Marvel, the actual Raging Demon. But he tripped over a rock so didn't land it.
@@whotfisKy Yeah, that was in one of the Udon comics. He was about to do it to *Sakura* after tapping into the Satsui No Hado for the first time, but tripped over her backpack. The page before him tripping make him genuinely look super intimidating, Akuma type stuff.
"Let's go gambling"
-procedds to try Dan infinite combo
**gets red fireball** aw dang it
@@Tr0lliPop**gets red fireball** Aw, dangit.
@@thevengefulone57 *gets red fireball* aw dang it.
*gets red fireball *Aw,Dang It.
**gets red fireball** aw dang it
Only Dan can get a random surge of power to amp up his attacks and end up screwing himself and his own combos due to it
Like that time when he tapped into the Satsui no Hado and tried to use the Shun Goku Satsu... only to trip and fall on his face.
DIO from Heritage for the Future has "one of the most difficult gameplans of any character, requiring insanely high execution for his basic combos" but isn't just hard to play for that - he's also infamous for having multiple moves where you'd rather they didn't exist at all, because using them basically throws the game straight away if the opponent notices! This isn't exactly the same as these moves weren't put in to intentionally make him worse...but sometimes you might wonder! Here's a list of the worst offenders:
- His grab is cinematic, but minus on hit and usually awards the opponent a free combo for landing it, making it only useful for finishing off opponents
- His dashing heavy is good, but his other dashing options are minus on hit, meaning the opponent knows you're going to do the dashing heavy every time
- His "checkmate" knife super is extremely versatile while Stand ON, but while Stand OFF it is one of the worst supers in the game, taking over a second to use
- His "road roller" super is extremely punishable, to the point where its only use against a non bottom tier character is to punish an opponent using the road roller super in the mirror match
- Dragon Punch input while Stand OFF gives DIO an invincible teleport with no recovery that is only really countered by a grab, but Stand ON locks you in place for over a second to do a weak ranged attack that's dodged by simply walking forward, and if your opponent punishes you during it, you are combo'd for 2x damage, basically immediately giving up the round
"Your grab is minus on hit" is one of my least favorite fighting game phrases to hear.
@@hanegawamidori4081 It is a tragedy indeed. HFTF has several notable grabs that aren't just minus, but punishable (Like DIO, but off the top of my head there's also both versions of Hol Horse and Khan)
It's even worse because rolls are meant to be punished by grabs, meaning these characters have to just *let* their enemies roll through their attacks and do nothing about it, even if it should really be comically unsafe, because getting punished for them gives them a free combo instead of death
Tldr tho: You right, only thing worse is Grabs punishable on hit
@@megamansoupreme7122Tbh I prefer the Guilty Gear way. All the grabs are knockdowns. You got a hit in, but you can't combo of it, nor are you punished for landing a hit
@@DehydratedDarkness Tbf, most newer games are like that. Older games weren't really tested for balance so much as fun so stuff slipped by
@@hanegawamidori4081 it would be one thing to be minus if they got to tech far away but there are a few moves like that makes both of you stay next to each other which is mind boggling.
Zangief just really wants to be a Dead or Alive character with that hold move.
That is the most accurate reference I've heard in awhile. Now if only he could learn the rest of the Hold kit...
The bloos roar character Shina has a literal tempest through, predating the great meme by close to 2 decades.
@@0ctopusComp1etely Pfp (Profile Picture) and / or Banner Sauce (Source [Artist])? 🗿
I love that Dan's red fireball is a reference to the random red fireballs from SF2
They aren't random if you do a quarter circle they blue if you do a half circle they are red and do "fire" damage
@@SomeoneStoleMyHandle911Yeah. It's Shakunetsu Hadoken.
@chrisrockett5897 no...later editions, it became the shakunetsu hadouken.
The very first sf2, it was an Easter egg, and random.
@@SomeoneStoleMyHandle911 load up vanilla sf2 l, cps1, and try it.
It's random, not half circle. You're thinking of later editions, like super street fighter 2.
@@FFKonoko Oh my bad.
I know it’s controversial to call it a fighting game, but Villager in smash ultimate was given a finisher to his jab combo which was a nerf. He used to be able to apply safe pressure up-close with his jabs, but now if he jabs he’s locked into the laggy finisher. He’s already a zoner so taking away his best melee tool was rough for him
This is a great example. Villager's jab used to be a pretty fun and unique tool. I have to believe the nerf was unintentional, because he wasn't exactly climbing up the tiers in Smash 4.
Another Smash example, giving Ryu his proxmity hard punch. His roundhouse is a great killing and zoning tool. The punch can... combo into input DP sometimes... Yeah there's basicly no time you'd ever want it over the kick.
Yoshi Egg Roll (side b). Has been pretty much useless since its introduction aside from a custom special in Smash 4. Without it, both b reversing neutral b and angling his egg throw would be easier.
Smash is definitely a fighting game. Anyone who says it isn't is a snob
@@varenoftatooine2393 Well then the creator of Smash is a snob because he himself has literally said on multiple occasions that Smash is not a fighting game.
Something you didn't mention about Zangief's Tundra Storm is that it uses the same input as Zangiefs Green Hand from USF4. Green Hand filled an important hole in Zangiefs matchups while Tundra Storm does almost nothing even in it's ideal environment. Players had also been asking for Green Hand to return since SFV launched, the move sharing inputs was basically out of spite.
Once i saw the thumbnail i knew i would be reminded of the Wolverine Infinite Combo.
Honorable mention: In FighterZ, they gave android 18 a variation on her special where she calls 17 which is done by holding the input instead of tapping, which is annoying to sometimes accidentally do as it will not connect with the misinput
Isn’t that a buff since I heard 18 can do the versions on air on the ground and vice versa which if you’re a pro and don’t get mis-input a lot that’s a good thing right?
@ZAPRST8879 I have yet to see any combos with the ability to do so. Maybe a set up or 2, both for most 18 players I watch, they call it an annoyance and wish it didn't get added. Technically a buff, but it also messes with people who already had the inputs.
In Moldybagel's breakdown of 18, he mentioned it as a buff, so idk
@Tr0lliPop Yes again, it most certaintly is a "buff" (a useless one but a buff) but it fits this video. Moves that mess with a character, half the time because of input differences. A bunch of good 18 players have stated their distaste for the change despite it being a buff
@@ExonZenoTwoTheElectricBoogaloo no it doesn't fit.
the video is looking for moves that made the character worse.
18 didn't get worse, you just had to adjust to a new input.
swiss cheese makes wolvie worse because he can't do stuff he was able to do before (it messes with plinks and mashes)
Doesn't She-Hulk also have an issue where if you use up the wall bounce, her super doesn't work?
she does 😭
Potemkin in GGST actually has another pretty good example, that being kara-canceled Back Mega Fist (kBMF). (yes I would argue this counts)
For those unaware, you can kara cancel Pot's specials with 6K, giving them extra forward momentum. In the game's beta, this turned out to be especially strong with Back Mega Fist, which is a move that gives up space but hops over many moves and is great on hit and block (+4 on block, goes into c.S on hit). Kara-canceling it, however, meant you could get those properties without giving up any space, which they didn't really want (for comparison, the regular Forward Mega Fist was not only punishable on block, but, at the time, minus on _hit_ too).
They decided to nerf this by actually giving the kara-canceled version special properties without touching regular BMF, effectively turning it into a new move. They gave it more recovery (now -2 on block and can't start combos on hit), but as compensation it also got extra damage and a ground bounce on aerial hit. So he lost some potency on one of his best neutral tools, but in exchange he got a high-execution but very rewarding combo extender.
EDIT 2024-10-30: and they're completely throwing the entire mechanic away in season 4. thanks arcsys!
You can still combo off kBMF on *Counter* Hit, I've done it a few times
but yeah kBMF is a funny combo tool
@@LoraLoibu I meant to specify non-CH but guess I forgot lol
Even more fun is that outside of the infinite Dan's red fireball is actually a small buff since it knocks down!
Between that and the lore implications that Dan's more powerful than he looks it was genuinely a masterclass in updating a character from Capcom
Tundra Storm use to just be dp with 1 punch instead of 2. It was changed in arcade edition because it would overlap with other moves
It's because that used to be the input for greenhand (I think)
@@k96man No, it's because you'd get tundra storm when going from holding down>back to doing a micro walk in to SPD all the time after they added the move. It quite literally was a nerf. I mained Gief at the time and I even saw clips of Itabashi accidentally getting tundra storm when trying to micro walk in to light SPD. I remember reading the patch notes and knowing exactly why they did it but still wishing they had just removed it.
@Skugfisk I remember seeing it in Gief's sf6 move list and groaning. This pos move made it but not green hand? Heck, even flex would be more useful than tundra storm.
Guile was nerfed in Street Fighter 2 Champion and Hyper Editions, by adding an extra hit to the medium and strong Flash kick. That means if you don't hi the flash kick deep enough,, the medium and strong versions will only hit once, and not knock down, leaving you wide open for a punish. Also Sagat's Tiger Knee was super quick that could leap frog over fireballs in Champion and Hyper Edition of Street Fighter 2 , but was nerfed Super Street Fighter 2 and Super Street Fighter 2 turbo by making it slower, less priority, and much harder to successfully leapfrog fireballs or combo into uppercut.
Tiger Knee was not in Champion Edition, unless it was a CPU only move.
@@X2011racer Tiger Knee certainly was in champion Edition and playable too as Sagat was playable. I played Sagat in Champion Edition in the arcades, that's how I know.
This video is quite fascinating, thank you for creating and sharing.
On the Wolverine in Marvel 3 point it doesn't really nerf his combos, it hits his movement. If you plink dash to move quickly in the game that input overlaps with mash moves, and the addition of Swiss Cheese limited the rate at which he could move across the screen.
It's extra bad because Wolverine has the same issue that Ryu has where he has an install super on down down two buttons, so wavedashing can get you to do berserker charge accidentally. Berserker charge is much better than Ryu's install, but you still dont want to throw away meter by accident.
Also, why does Wolverine get these dumb nerfs to his movement when characters like Magneto are just twerkin' around all over the screen way faster than someone like Wolverine ever could?
Well, plink dashing was only discovered a good bit after the move was added, meaning it wasn't an intentional thing at all in this regard. Still did fuck it up, but it wasn't the main point since at that time it didn't exist in their eyes
@@megamansoupreme7122 At least here in NorCal people were talking about plink dashing in Vanilla which is certainly before Swiss Cheese. Unsure how much Capcom knew when of course.
@@isiceradew716 Hmm... Were they talking about it before or after UMvC3 released? Perhaps they went back to Vanilla and it still worked there (Do realize this is only a theory, a guess, and not an attempt at assigning truth or whatnot)
@@megamansoupreme7122 I remember The Gagaguy told me to learn to plink dash near the end of vanilla and I failed to listen to his advice for like 3 years, then when I finally did learn, it substantially improved my QoL while moving around in the game.
In Blazblue one of Kokonoe's nerfs in Chrono Phantasma 1.1 was that her 236C (freeze ray) gained an automatic super that would come out and do zilch damage wasting 50 meter. The reason they did this is that Kokonoe's 236C was used in a lot of her unblockable setups.
I love how excited JM is about the clean chrome dome, it just geniunely looks like manscaped pops off
DOME SHAVER PRO GOT ME LOOKIN SMOOOOOOTH
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and for good reason, manscaped goes hard
I heard that Swiss cheese being added was to nerf wolverines plink dash I could be wrong but that’s just what I’ve heard
Plink dashing wasn't discovered until a little ways into UMVC3, after Wolverine already got Swiss Cheese.
That being said it did have that effect in practice.
Wolverine in umvc3 is the only example of this i had ever heard of, it is cool learning about these other ones
I'm actually pretty impressed that you were able to find 7 of these. Adding moves is definitely an unconventional method for nerfing characters. I agree that the SF5 Dan red fireball is one of the most elegant nerfs I've seen in a fighting game. You've already covered it before in other videos, but tripping in Brawl is kind of an additional universal mechanic that nerfed every character. And it was intentional to try and get people to stop wave dashing.
Wavedashing wasn't in Brawl at any known point and by design, it wouldn't have been affected since it is an interaction of directional air dodging (removed in Brawl) with the ground.
Tripping was probably intended to add to the party factor of randomness, but like you say, really nerfed some characters who depended on ground movement though inconsistently.
Ironically, had wavedashing been allowed by the mechanics of Brawl, tripping would have made it even more useful, since you don't actually dash in a wavedash, and therefore can't trip.
I know this video isn't primarily about the sponsor but I'm glad it got so successful. First time I watched them on Shark Tank was hilarious and then they started going viral for their meme ads and now they've sponsored thousands of creators. Company's worth around 1 billion dollars, and boy am I happy.
Trading Green Hand for Tundra Storm was like a slap in the face.
Capcom: hey, remember that cool movility tool you use to make your low tier grappler more reliable. Well, we got rid of it and we gave him a parry.
Player: Ok...? Is like a Geese Howard's parry at least, Right?
Capcom: ...
Player: Right?
As a Smash Player I look at that counter and go
". . .So this is the true fighting game version of Counter Throw"
If you don't know what counter throw is, it's really REALLY bad, Mii Brawler puts his arm in front of him, and you HAVE to hit him in this arm area.
Meaning if they do a crouch attack, hit them from behind, above or below, it's a wiff.
Sure it's REALLY strong....but the "grab" is so...pathetic, you literally have to be right next to Mii Brawler for it to connect, so if you're fighting a swordie which is...literally about 10-25% of the cast, don't bother.
It doesn't even trigger against projectiles, no reduced damage, no nothing, you take the full force of it.
Not to mention it will take the place of a 3RD PERMNANT JUMP. This is BIG and powerful in Smash Bros, it's comparable to having the ability to adjustable teleports in fighting games and can go in either direction, even behind your foe. [not the best analogy, but I think you can tell how powerful that would be]
So how do we fix Zangief's Counter? [I am no fighting game pro...but uh just throwing this idea out there]
Well I suggest turning it into a Smash-Bros like counter...kind of
Allow it to counter overhead and high kicks, but not punches or projectiles. Give it a larger time where it's considered "active" because what the hell is those active frames.
If it "wiffs" or doesn't trigger, then there is a decent ending lag, allowing your foe to punish, and to prevent spamming it.
If it does connect, Zangief recovers faster than the foe, allowing him to follow up while being close up, which for a grappler is pretty powerful.
Basically you have to be good at reading your opponent to connect this move, and if you suck at reading, well you're likely never going to connect this move.
@@Callie_with_a_bible This is why I mentioned Geese. He has a counter that depending of the input works on lows, mids or overheads regardless of punches or kicking (don't work on projectiles of course but that's why you use double repuken) and depending of the game you also have access to a command grab that works on knocked out opponents so it's basically a follow up to his counter move.
@@Slayerthecrow Well that just makes it wierd how they made Geese's counter good but the guy who is literally a grappler, a bad counter....really? Was Geese's counter really strong and they didn't want that to happen again but accidently went too far into the other direction to the point where the counter actively harms you instead of just being useless?
@@Callie_with_a_bible Yeah, that's the difference between Capcom and SNK. Geese is a beast that can play very well in defense and offense, just check what Namco did to him on Tekken 7, bro was very good. In KOF 15 is a very solid character but the game already has character with very complete move list so far that I don't his place on the tier list but he has always been a very good character over all.
Zangief's Tundra Storm definitely fits this topic. It originally had the same command as his green hand until it was patched out. If you had muscle memory from SFIV and didn't know they removed green hand in SFV, you'd be screwing over yourself every time you tried to green hand on reflex.
Not to mention the missed SPDs because of that useless special
That Dan nerf is the most lore-friendly nerf I've ever seen. Dan not being able to control the kind of fireball he throws is the most Dan thing imaginable.
A funky example is dynamo roller in the third person shooter Splatoon made by Nintendo. When they added vertical flick rollers by jumping while you attack it was a huge nerf to dynamos playstyle of jumping into horizontal flicks
(I'm sure this will mean nothing to most people who read it)
Honda's far HP wasn't in CPS-1 versions of SF2. I think it was added to make his anti-air "chop" HP less useful.
16:06 imo a lot of people were complaining about the counter move was probably due to remnant muscle memory for green hand kicking in still
the zangeif counter throw will always be the most baffling thing I've ever seen
Even in SF6 it can counter more different types of kicks but it still sucks.. it just sucks a little less. Please give us green hand..
I mean the reason why I stopped playing wolverine was because of that damn move, it just made him unplayable for me
Swiss cheese was painful. I couldn't play him after that.
the first one with Dan is actually super cool and a really creative way to nerf a character but keep the sauce players found with him. Random even works for Dan since hes a Troll character
Oh god, *Tundra Storm*. And yes, I would get that a lot if I churned too quickly. They changed it to Down- Down HK in 6 which made it no longer a nuisance and it has niche use (Bison scissor kick lol).
Imagine a 'Gief player coming in, misinput their command grab and getting Tundra Storm, then the other player panic-mashes out a medium kick and "WHOOAAA, ZANGIEF WON WITH TUNDRA STORM, TUNDRA STORM JUST WON EVO". That person would have to retire from the FGC *forever*.
Leaving the infinite in, but just making it a chance thing is honestly really cool.
I dunno if anyone else has mentioned this yet, but part of the frustration with Tundra Storm was that originally it was a single punch button, so it would just accidentally come out if you were trying to do something like go into a crouching jab, which is why it was eventually changed to require at least two punches.
I mained She Hulk and lamp post is the absolute worst garbage. Not only does it mess up back throws and throw techs, but on hit it uses up your wallbounce so THE ONLY SUPER SHE CAN COMBO INTO loses 2/3 of its damage and its followup potential.
Characters looked so weird in SFV and we didn't even care. Giefs hands are just huge
Fun fact, one of the directors for street fighter mentioned that he has the hands and feet bigger than a normal person’s to make it easier to see and react.
0:07 SF2 Bison's Psycho Crusher doing that much chip damage is insane, I didn't know he was like that
I mean Bison was broken in like first six whole games (discounting a billion editions along the way) arcade games were meant to milk you and Bison was the final boss
2:22 the fact that Dan was made viable enough to even need a nerf is weird
For a brief shining period... swiss cheese was... gouda.
Great video. An example I always think of is Kazumi's wr1 being added in (I think) season 3 of Tekken 7. Deep dash jab would often come out as that instead. Considering how vital her jab was to her gameplan, it really made offense with her feel more sluggish when dashing in
Fun fact: Sakurai added Alpha 2's red fireball in Smash Bros. Ultimate, and it ended up being one of the best projectiles in the entire game.
When the sponsored ad fits like a glove. You love to see it.
I love the topics you come up with. I’ll even rewatch your old vids! Forever a fan
Alpha 3 Sodom got 2 new moves that both overlapped with his slide input (fake tengu and his overhead counter), and both moves were awful and left him wide open if you got them by accident, which happened al the time.
Clark's Shining Wizard in KOF 2002 definitely feels like an example.
It's a hitgrab that only works on crouching opponents,, on a character that makes heavy use of safejumps and jump-in pressure.
The input, half-circle backward + punch, also overlaps with the input for Ultra Argentine Backbreaker (half-circle backwardx2 + punch), eliminating an easy shortcut for routing into the latter.
I'm loving these high concept deep dives. Really interesting stuff from a genre history standpoint. Here's hoping we'll see something as creative (and character appropriate) as Dan's red fireball nerf in future games.
thanks manscaped 👍
Tekken pleb here. Steve Fox Lionheart stance made him both shittier and less fun (shocking right?) in Tekken 8. He feels like an EV car when he's supposed to be a 6 speed manual; forced options instead of player control. Great video as always sir :)))
that dan fact is actually the funniest thing i've seen in a while.
Great idea for a vid, never really thought about how messed up ST Guile would be with his old fierce!
guilenerfquote?
yooo I’ve been binging your videos and I just opened youtuber wondering when you’d upload a random fighting game info video again and here we are!
It's a niche thing to say, but in the transition from smash 64 to melee they added the sideB specials, and I always thought yoshi was hurt by it, since holding to the sides while using his neutral b (where he swallows you and makes you an egg) helped controlling its movement in the air, and now when you tilt to the sides you get its sideB, eggroll, which has always been a garbage move in 20+ years of existence
I’m still traumatized by Swiss Cheese.
It’s like in Ninja Gaiden on the NES when you get the whirlwind slash and you can no longer perform a jump attack without using bar.
Edit: you hold down and press jump, to jump without the spin attack.
Old: Actually, you can jump without using it if you slash grounded then jump within one frame, or some trick i can't remember specifically but it isn't obvious, it's something you don't know about until someone tells you.
@@RoundShades no way! Been playing the game for 35 years and had no idea. Thanks!
Swiss Cheese would've been great in MvC:I...
It's not that swiss cheese messes with combos, it's that the buffer in the game is so large that plink dashing or wave dashing too quickly counts as mashing, so swiss cheese limits wolverine's movement speed and options in neutral.
Exactly the type of JM content I love. Years of fighting game knowledge that I don't know about with a friendly bald gentleman in the corner -- love it"
Some games also change the way some combos interact with other characters. 1st game there was a combo that let you get a free hit cause it teleports you behind them. Next game if the character is blocking, You no longer teleport and you kinda freeze till you fall to the ground (Its like a 1/3rd jump so it just left you vulnerable instead of being OP)
you are the best informative person on fighting games jmcrofts
As a Potemkin main, I agree. It also ruined my kara Garuda Impact setup. Before Heat Tackle came out, inputting 214236K~HS would lead into kara Garuda. Now it does kara Heat Tackle.
Also I always charge by doing *CROUCH* block (1) so I don't walk back while charging.
Now when I do (1)6 sometimes I get Heat Tackle by accident (I play with d-pad ps4 controller). Now I must make sure I input (1)46HS in order to get Hammerfall properly.
In Blazblue when Kokonoe was released she was slightly busted so along with a few nerfs they added an extra move to her fireball attack which burns half your meter if you have any making it a really bad combo ender if you are trying to save up for something.
finally, a product review for me from a reviewer i can trust has used it
Since we're talking about Zangief, I've seen Gief players in SF6 get accidental Borscht/Air SPD because the buffer on it is so large.
Hell, even just the changed input from punch to kick still occasionally tricks my muscle memory and screws me. So many years of air SPD w/ punches and now it's kicks...fucks with your head. Anyway, I'm kinda hungry so I'm gonna grab some crayons.
I love these videos because it's nice to learn new stuff from fighting games
In ST, Ken's Crescent Kick was also a move overlap nerf(not intended as one). The input is a quarter circle from forward to down and any kick button. During footsies, if you wanna throw out a sweep, chances are you're getting a Crescent Kick in stead.
When Tekken began integrating moves directly with sidestep motion, many old tech involving sidestep into fast normals were deleted. There were many players complaining about it. I don't remember all the specific cases, there were many across the board, but two affected my characters:
- Lei's ss,4 used to be the "magic 4", just done after sidesteping an attack. After the change, it became a very stylish launcher with better potential but worse range. I loved it, but many other Lei players hated it a lot.
- Xiaoyu's ss3 sidestep into the counter launching normal standing 3 became a much slower snake edge, wich lots of players considered a nerf too. In fact, they removed the ss3 sweep for tekken 8, changing it to a different input.
My favorite example is Glacius from KI 2013. In season 1, he had no dash and it was kind of a weakness but he's a very slow, long range zoner so it didn't hold him back too much. In season 2 they gave him dashes. You would think in a game with invincible backdashes this would be a buff, but his dashes are so horribly slow that the only time you ever see them is when you misinput. They're that bad.
Gotta say RQ, You're unfortunately incorrect about Heat Tackle. It's a rather powerful roundstart option and is insanely good against some of our harder MU's like Asuka or Millia, adding it hasn't actually done much of anything in indirectly nerfing hammerfall, plus We rarely ever actually use HF without meter, because it's SUPER punishable on block.
God, what a COOL concept for a video!!
As a Potemkin myself, I didn't think about Heat Tackle getting input instead of Hammerfall, but not really an issue on stick or leverless, which I play, I guess. On the other hand, the amount of times I get a Mega Fisto when I just want to 6P... Oh boy
Most convicning Manscaped ad yet
This made me wonder if we can get a video on buffs that were also indirect nerfs.
One that I'm still salty about to this day, and heard nobody talk about, was a "buff" to Juri in SF4. Her ex dive kick originally would do all three parts on hit or block. So it was extremely easy to punish. And depending on where you hit, the auto follow-up might drop the combo. At some point, it was changed and you could control the follow-ups. However this came with massive damage scaling. Each follow-up added to the scaling. So using EX DK into Ultra II to punish a fireball or long recovery attack did way lass damage.
I don't remember if the Super/Ultra never doing less than 50% started in sf4 or sf5
Potemkin in Strive actually got one of these in the season 3 update with the Forward Mega Fist changes. It now always did a soft knockdown, instead of doing a regular hit on grounded hit and a hard knockdown on air hit. This was regarded as a massive buff at first, but in practice it was actually a pretty harsh nerf overall.
It was much better on normal grounded hit (getting a soft KD instead of being -2 on hit was a big deal), but it was much worse everywhere else. On grounded counterhit you had much worse combo followups, but even worse, losing the hard knockdown on air hit made it so much harder to go into his best oki since he didn't really have any other combo enders that gave a decently close knockdown like FMF did.
Fortunately that last bit was remedied with later patches that gave him better knockdown combo enders (Heat Tackle in the season 3.5 patch, then 5H and Hammer Fall in the post-EVO patch more recently) so it did become a buff overall, but yea it was kinda rough there for a bit.
Hell yeah, jm rocking that ad promo
Another good example is Akuma close 5HK in 3rd Strike. cl.5HK didn't exist in 2nd Impact, which is already a plus since his normal 5HK is super good in 2nd Impact. The big kicker though was that not only did 5HK combo out of his divekick in that game, but it causes backturn, allowing for the only true confirm into Raging Demon in SF3. The damage was pretty scaled but even just divekick > 5HK xx Demon would do ~50% on most characters and give oki. cl.5HK was added in 3rd Strike SPECIFICALLY so that combo would not be possible anymore.
Captain Falcon in Melee (besides version 1.0.3) has this little issue where there's two neutral attack finishers you can pull off. The one that you'd actually want is called the gentleman, but the way the inputs read works is that an extra input is read when you let go of the last button for some reason. This causes Falcon to do the vastly inferior rapid punch attack instead of the gentleman, so you can barely pull the later off.
The worst part of tunda storm, is that the initial input was exactly the same as green hand used to be
My Chun-Li got nerfed in SFV Season 2 when they made lightning legs work through mashing.
Her bnb was st.MP, cr.MK xx SBK which was really tight on charge timing, so when I learned the combo in vanilla, I would push the st.MP and pull the stick down while mashing MK to get the link and then cancel as late as possible to get SBK. But since they added another input for lightning legs I would just get st.MP and then random lightning legs.
I had never paid attention until now, But JMcroft head have such a regular shape, no bumps, just a flat surface.
i feel like ibuki’s added roundhouse kick in 3rd strike counts too, it’s a good move but it makes it way harder to do the launching kick that made her so good in new generation and 2nd impact
I genuinely thought the dan red fireball was a perfect frame, like EWGF, and it was required to do MULTIPLE FRAME PERFECT fireballs to get it to work, but hey that's just as creative, love it
Id like to mention jubei from blazblue who has a near useless parry that only serves to make his movement a bit harder
As someone who isn’t very savvy in Street Fighter, I feel very validated because I thought I was using Tundra Storm the wrong way in Street Fighter 6, but it turns out the move is just total dogshit.
I have one, although it's mostly a "change your playstyle and approach" thing: Mario's F.L.U.D.D. In Super Smash Bros. 64 and Melee, the Mario Tornado was a handy move as a get-off-me option in Free-for-alls, as well as a good recovery option in conjunction with his Super Jump Punch. His original down air was also good as a combo starter, too. Since Brawl, Mario no longer has the Mario Tornado as a special and has become his down-air move, which now pushes enemies and no longer has a vaccum effect like it used to. F.L.U.D.D. is considerably not that useful for anything other than a good edge guard strategy.
In WWE Day of Reckoning, John Cena got a new move for downed opponents: the Knuckle Shuffle. In Wrestlemania XIX, he had a standard kick like most wrestlers. The problem with his Knuckle Shuffle is that it's ridiculously slow because of how long the animation is, meaning he can't deal as much damage as quickly as he originally could. This is not to be confused with his Five Knuckle Shuffle, which was his Momentum Shift move.
VSav Aulbath's Direct Scissors is a meme super that spends 3 bars to do a slow overhead that does a heavy normal's worth of damage. It's a reference to his old crHP and can only be accessed by picking the default color. It's on a 22 input, so getting it accidentally does sometimes happen. Picking alternate colors is recommended for helping to forget this move actually exists.
10:21
That Wolverine infinite was hilarious! 😂
Worth noting that Tundra Storm was originally DP + one punch and had longer recovery on whiff. You'd get the move accidentally trying to walk up and press CrLP which is one of Zangief's best pokes, and then you died
Really nice sponsored content here! Unironically, you nailed this. And your head looks great! Thanks to today's sponsor, you should definitely get jmcrofts to do more videos for you!
Zangief Tundra Storm comes to mind.
It was in there from the start, but Peacock's fake teleport definitely exists as a nerf to the character. She can call item drops with 214P, which you can delay by holding the punch button. When you release punch, the item drops. She has teleports: half a screen back, directly in front of the opponent, and directly behind them. It would be insane to be able to do teleport crossup mix from full screen with item drops, so... If you hold punch while teleporting, you get a fake teleport which doesn't move you but spawns a kinda crappy projectile directly under the opponent. This move absolutely exists just to remove item drop/teleport mix from the game.
In SF6 Tundra Storm actually has a use despite being super niche, as it can save Gief from burnout-stun setups if the character performing it against them has a mid kick for their DI, which is surprisingly a decent amount
Link's Remote Bomb is one I'd like to mention personally. Imagine you have a move in previous titles (especially the one prior to the game Remote Bomb debuted in) where you could do practically everything with it. Combo into massive damage or kill confirms, use it as a recovery tool, snuff out grounded attack options and projectiles by planting it on the ground, utilize it as a threatening edge-guarding option that can set up into a kill confirm, you name it, the Bomb could have done it. And you could have two of them out at the same time. The Bomb was one of the reasons Link could have arguably been a high tier in Smash 4 had it not been for the game's competitive scene croaking for several reasons.
Now imagine either removing all of that utility or, at best, making that utility significantly worse in the process of making a brand new move that grants you the ability to make setup play and create extremely elaborate combos that are way too difficult to pull off for the reward of it. And you could only use one at a time. On top of being on a worse engine and Link getting an overall net nerf in terms of his kit, Remote Bomb was a slap to the face for the character's viability and peoples' interest in playing him.
And while there are many reasons why both Young Link and Toon Link are not only more popular picks, but more viable ones, a major contributing factor to this is that they have bombs that actually do what the Smash 4 version of Link does, but on two extremely mobile and still-hard-hitting characters.
Had Link kept his Bombs from Smash 4 to Ultimate, he would've arguably been a solid high-middle tier character, possibly above Toon Link. But alas, Link was given the single worst version of the Bomb special in the entire series (not counting Customs) and thus will likely never see high tier viability in Ultimate.
Surprised you didn't mention Sean from 2nd impact to 3rd strike!
He did get a ton of nerfs, but one of them was them moving his FP to Cl.fp and gave him a new FP which was pretty darn bad. At least in 2nd impact he could press that FP fast and build meter like a lot of the other top tiers.
Kokonoe in Blazblue ChronoPhantasma is the biggest example for me. She had very powerful combos and an unblockable super, as well as a move that could freeze you in place. To nerf her, they gave her a new super that automatically triggers when she uses the freeze and she has enough meter, turning it into a forced combo ender.