One reason the original x-over is boosted in the mid-band is so Wilson could increase their efficiency rating over the choice of a smoother fq response. Also rigid port tubes are resonant by nature. Why pipe organs use rigid pipes. I always roll my own port tubes using cork. That way the port tube is a rigid pipe at low frequencies but as the frequency increases, the cork is a great media for reducing resonances.
No, it is pure cork. I use 1/8 to 3/16" cork sheet applying masking tape where the seam is on the inside with half the tapes width exposed so when the cork rolled around the former, the other edge is held in place with the inner masking tape. Then wood glue completes the bond. Then a second layer of masking tape is applied to the outside to cover the seam. I use PVC pipe for the former making sure that the cork is not too tight so once glue is cured, I can slip the cork cylinder off from the form. This compliant/flexible tube virtually eliminates most pipe resonances, yet at low frequencies the tube acts as a rigid structure. I first saw this cork port tube in Goldmund Dialgue speakers many years ago. I immediately understood the advantage of this design. Maybe Goldmund has a patent on this, I don't know. Since I only build custom designs, it doesn't effect me.
Cool idea. But rigidity at low frequency would be dependant on their resonan frequency. Once excited they will oscillate and wobble around at their resonant frequency.
Bonjour de la France............ avant j'ai possédé BW, KEF, SPENDOR, TRIANGLE, HARBETH........ et maintenant j'ai des enceintes acoustiques bibliothèque avec MarkAudio Pluvia 11 sans filtre, et j'ai aussi un subwoofer REL Acoustics pour la configuration 2.1 avec un amplificateur LYNGDORF TDAI-3400.......... ma vie a complétement changé, je suis un homme heureux, mes oreilles sont très contentes et jamais fatiguées.......... et voilà, merci MarkAudio, car avec l'argent économisé, j'achète encore plus de disques, plus de musique.
>Noticed on APC site a tech-note indicates "dB & damping factor loss due to cable resistance" they indicate certain cable gauge with added length appears to change 'damping-factor' a strange measurement not often mentioned or understood when it is - myself included.
Good video. Can’t wait to hear about this customers reviews in the forum. Is it me or is the felt ring around the tweeter off center? I’m asking because I was planning on putting some felt around my tweeter and I was also going to put it off center
Brutal. Yikes. You all but said 'snake oil'. You handled everything about that video way better than I would have. The phone call made me laugh, you managed far better. Excellent production all around. Very informative, as usual. Don't ever change, this is just too good! Please carry on!
The duette is designed to stand close to the wall, that is why they didn't provide it with a baffle step correction the roomgain would/ should balance this out.
@@anthonyjackson7097 I don't know if the Duette was in fact designed to be close to a rear wall, but typically the mid-size and larger Wilson speakers are designed to be at least 4-6 feet from the rear wall, so "close to the wall" may be a relative term.
@@anthonyjackson7097 Totally depends on the speaker. If a speaker is weak in the low end or midbass, placing it 6" or so from the wall or corner will typically make it better just like @smaudi said. If a rear ported speaker is already fat in the low end it's best to keep it a couple feet away from the wall and avoid corners.
Even if that were the goal, they would have still had to adjust for the baffle step loss and create a more gradual decrease in output across the lower end to balance out boundary reinforcement. I might add that they also include a cable and a resistor for the tweeter designed for free standing use, on their stands, that the customer also owns.
@edjackson4389 Yeah, I understand your point. I feel that using walls to correct baffle step is not the way to go about it. Minus 3+dB at frequencies right in the Fletcher Munson curve will not go unnoticed. For speakers approaching $15,000.00 a pair, what is another cap, coil, and resistor going to matter to the profit margin? While nice-looking speakers, there is nowhere near with stand included $15,000.00 worth of parts. Any manufacturer charging this kind of money should have baffle step compensation, Period! You shouldn't have to use the walls, like you own a pair of Bose 901's.
@@mcgovernjimmyAgree! I like how well the powerful spring loaded terminal clips grip my binding posts with their jagged, nine nines oxygen free copper teeth.
Just an additional FIY, while the crossovers are potted. There are a lot of binding posts, and internal screws, nuts, and washers connecting everything. All of the binging posts, internal screws, and nuts are either Copper, Brass, or Aluminum. However, there are two resistors above the potted crossovers that are connected using a connecting junction, and the resistors are held down with and twisted around steel screws.
For some reason factory positive and negative pairs always have the positive and negative running in the same direction. What if Wilson flipped the negative side on the “near wall” set to eliminate the room boom? I think they would measure exactly the same but sound different. I’m a fan of yours Danny! I am going to build a pair of your speakers some day. Love the videos!
Different loudspeakers for different applications but if one compares the response curves to a Genelec or Neumann - Wilson is just audio jewellery, pure bling. Thankfully, recording engineers aren’t using Wilson for monitoring.
Many recording engineers use monitors that aren't all that flat, or even ones that they would never use to listen to the music outside their work. Of course that doesn't apply to all of them but the point is that the important part is truly knowing the monitor you're using and how it relates to the sound you want to achieve.
>Slightly brave careful which words are chosen on this one - this will be fun.. :) *this is what's all about! *ultimately a consumer is paying not just for a specific design but also 'iteration' within a range is why designers/manufactures can call their price, look at Magico when you thought no more re-design could ever happen to a baffle one man does something entirely new to compliment their own or OEM spec drivers with semi-exotic materials, nothing better than this fabulous & infinite subject.
Having listened to many in room TH-cam demos of Wilson speakers from their midrange Sasha to Alexa or whatever all the way up to their top of the line speakers, they all sound very forward and in your face. So I think that’s the Wilson sound. I’m surprised your customer bought these speakers not knowing that in advance.
@@Mark-rw3kw Nevertheless still an embarrassment. They're on the second hand market and what about all the poor(!) people who were fooled for 20y years? A reviewer named "Mark" just bought a pair. Hope he finds this upgrade;-) At least there's now a fix! Thanks Danny
@@carlitomelon4610 I personally am not a fan of Wilson speakers, simply from a price performance point of view (plus they are often butt ugly). However, I don't think the 2005 Duette Series 1 is an embarrassment. I don't know what you mean by fooled for 20 years. You can go back and read reviews of the original Duette Series 1 and see what others thought of the way it sounded. If you want to see a recent embarrassment, see the GR-Research original LGK (Little Giant Killer with one full range driver) and how it was reviewed on ASR and other sites. Fortunately, Danny released some new LGK versions that included adding additional low frequency drivers (and not just some crossover or other minor changes) to address the problem. What ASR revealed is that the tests that Danny does are not comprehensive enough, or do not include listening tests, to uncover a major flaw in a speaker system. Nobody in this world is perfect, and I think there is room in the audio world to appreciate both Wilson and GR-Research, regardless of whether their older products needed improvements. BTW, I didn't purchase a used Wilson. I am not a fan of 2-way "bookshelf" or stand-mount designs. I also not a fan of buying any audio gear that old.
@@Mark-rw3kw I have been listening to these upgraded Duette for a while now and I can tell you this... Your opinion of Danny / GR Research and constant sniping against him is laughably disconnected from the reality of what he produces. These Duette speakers, with Danny's new crossover, are now SPECTACULAR. Your constant sniping and making excuses for any speaker he fixes is obsessive and offers no value to the conversation, other that to be an example to others to be careful the credence you place into the opinion of others on the internet... most especially anyone referencing Audio "Science" Review. I hope you have a great day!
Danny. Great video and tuning. Please consider a more greyish/beige background. Could hardly see the black speakers that blended with the black background. Thanks. Same with the screenshot of the X-statics.
It’s really nice these days to use DSP to emulate notch filters, baffle response, and other xover changes without calculating and adding lots of inductors, caps, resistors etc to the huge parts count of a passive xover. Saves me lots of $ stocking parts for experiments! I have worked on speakers like Krell with over 30 components in the xover.
@@dannyrichie9743 Of course, but surely you will admit it’s a pretty quick way to explore different xovers, slopes, etc without getting out the soldering iron and raiding the parts bin?
The best DSP system I've used is offered by UPS ground... when I send the speaker to Danny to fix it. Although, I'm beginning to prefer FedEx these days. 🏁🏁🏁
I can't help but wonder if sometimes the design team gets the first crack at the speakers, and then says to the technicians, here this is what you have to work with.
visual design? yes i agree, especially if they're working on a whole new line with a new look, the artistic / product designers will have a visual design into which a speaker has to be inserted, and the production cost accountants will be controlling the price of what goes in. but strange they spend all that dough on a potted external crossover and not put the money into foil inductors and really good caps and resistors..
Hi Danny, thank you for your kind reply. I understand it but I thought maybe in the past years you might have modified the crossover for these speakers and I was interested to buy the components from you in a kit form.
@@Kowinaida Danny called it really high end.. I considered the brand and not the model. You'd think that a high end company would get the basics right before adding all the jewelry.
I was lucky to listen to a pair of Alexx V on mono blocks and a great front end. Probably the most precise and balanced speakers that I’ve listened to. B&W 801’s on McIntosh are beautiful. I’ve heard Magico M3 and a lot of really high end stuff like Focal’s Utopia EVO. I have a few favourites for different reasons. The Alexx V were remarkable. Their Sophia left me very underwhelmed though. I imagine that I’d feel the same about these little 2 ways.
Hey Danny. This quote from John Mark’s review in Stereophile mag may help explain the decision to not use Baffle Step Comp: “The Duette was designed to be used in nonoptimal placements, such as on a credenza or mantel, or in a bookcase or built-in cabinet.” I can see it in John’s measurements, and he mentions it also.
I set the speakers up per the instructions in the manual... "Near Wall" resistors for 24" or less from front wall, etc. The problem is that even setup closer to the wall with boundary reinforcement, I still have to listen to them way off axis - pointed straight ahead. Even 10 degree off axis is fatiguing. If Wilson "intended them to be this way and let's not account for any baffle step compensation"... well, I don't like it. And now Danny has fixed it... The problem "hear" isn't the end user or improper setup. A good buddy of mine has a pair and he's doing the upgrade as well.
@@mcgovernjimmythanks for the response. I get what you’re saying, just maybe trying to help explain that portion of Wilson’s design choice (not that I necessarily agree with it). Enjoy!
If one were to design a speaker for close wall placement, the step loss still has to be accounted for. Then it is the ranges below 100Hz or so that are softened a little to mirror the gain of the front wall.
I've never heard Duette speakers, but it's obvious that the design of them is very different from most other Wilson speakers. As a result it's probably not possible to make a valid generalization from this video about most of their other products. I recently traded a pair of Spatial M-4 speakers for a pair of WATT 7 speakers and was surprised that the imaging and soundstage when going to a non open baffle design didn't change a lot. For sure the WATT 7 speakers delivered more low frequency impact. In my set up the Wilsons were on balance an upgrade. Not sure that would be the case if I had a pair of Spatial X-4 speakers.
I would really be interested about your thoughts for improvement on the Musician Night one speaker. Does it have good bones or not worth the 2000.00 Canadian.
When you go to Heaven God is going to commission you you to fix his speakers. I noticed that the bass port opening is not flared. It is counter productive to use relatively expensive aluminium without flaring when ironically , cheap flared plastic tubing would have been far better acoustically.
When the port is just big enough for the application then flaring it will help as there is high air velocity. However, if the port is oversized for the job, air velocity is not an issue. So making the port bigger in diameter and longer (keeping the same tuning) reduces port noise as well.
Hi Danny, thank you for generous and informative videos. I have pair of yamaha NS-6490 speakers, beyond changing each crossover components is there any other crossover that I can build to improve sound of drivers? Thank you
I would love to see the measurements of Oswald Mill Audio (OMA) speakers. Their prices compared to Wilson make Wilson look like it should be sold at Walmart.
yeah measure their monitors with large horns , they also have 8 incher in a ported cube box. worst shape for standing waves- perfect cube. price is around 25 grand if i remember correctly
@quant2011 You are right about that mini speaker. But I have seen where sometimes a designer will design the inside to not be acoustically a perfect square. They use various shaped installation to make the speaker see the box as the golden ratio.
Good job Danny. Whenever anyone accuses you of selling snake oil I I compare GR research to companies like Wilson and PS Audio. You offer quality products at a fair price and they sell insanely overpriced products that don’t perform well. It’s clear who is really peddling snake oil.
@@dunkelheit843 comments are asking for comment, period. To even ask the question shows that you are not even sure that the glaring issues in the original product being fixed, and having a much better and smoother response, may not actually sound better. That tells me you're the perfect Wilson customer, go spend your 30k because the brand name and magazine reviews tell you it's great, and it has prestige... I'll enjoy my 2000 dollar diy speakers that are objectively better in every way besides being fancy furniture. It was a silly statement mate, and I gave my 2c, deal with it. That's TH-cam.
@@Artcore103 It wasen't a question, just hoping the new filter lets him enjoy the speaker more. Don't see the point of you starting to flame me for that.
This speaker is meant to work well close to a wall, or even on an actual bookshelf. Compromises might have been made to account for near wall boundary loading, and at first blush it looks like the places where the response is 'sculpted' are consistent with that end goal because they are places where close boundaries would tend to 'thicken' the sound.
Even if that were the goal, they would have still had to adjust for the baffle step loss and create a more gradual decrease in output across the lower end to balance out boundary reinforcement. I might add that they also include a cable and a resistor for the tweeter designed for free standing use, on their stands, that the customer also owns.
Have you owned / listened to the Duette? There's no "setup issue / he didn't do it right" going on here. The speakers are "HYPER resolving" with the original crossover. I set these speakers up closer than 24" to the front wall and used the "Near Wall" resistors... both per the manual. For my enjoyment, I had to aim the speakers straight ahead and listen to them way off axis, so they didn't melt my face. Associated gear is all top shelf Ayre Acoustics - QB9 Twenty DAC, Ayre KX-5 Twenty preamp, Ayre VX-5 Twenty amp. A friend owns the same speaker, and also a pair of Alexia. We're both doing the upgrade on the Duette. This is a traumatic experience for some... it's gonna be OK. 🏁🏁🏁
very interesting, thanks! But a flat frequency response without phase control is easy, why do you not care about phase? do you like pink noise so much? ;-) Please reverse the HT cable +- plugs and show us the FR (dip).
Hey danny great content as usual, it baffles me that a pair of speakers costing 12 grand, and they still fuck it up it can.t b that they didn.t have enough pennies in the jar to meet the price point, i want to change my speakers at some point, but im lost , u just do not know what ur buying these days.....
Halo , i have been.watched your video all day long is very good well explained . Sir has good reviewed to all the equipment stuff n crossover is just normal quality , my opinion you should share some short video sound before and after renew caps , so all users have some new experience with their speaker what is it like from normal to good n great ! tq tq
I guess those cables may have somewhat different resistance in order to adjust Qes and Qts of a midbass driver. So at a port tunning frequency woofer could be more "loose" or more "tight".
So…you’re not impressed!? For doing remote recording, they are really handy but of course you have to wonder how they can make the speakers and amps for such low prices. (Read, cheap parts ??) I appreciate your knowledge of speakers and the education that you are providing. Keep up the great work.
From what I could find, the original Wilson Duette Series I (apparently the one reviewed here) was made from about 2005-2013 and the Wilson Duette Series II was made from about 2013-2020 (both versions are now retired). These dates may not be exact, but are close.
@@epi2045 Sabrina X is a larger and more expensive 3-way floor standing speaker. I think the Tune Tot has replaced the Duette, but obviously Wilson is better known for its larger floor standing speakers.
@@charlieyang2613 The stands were not $10K, they were $1,795/pair on the Series 1 model that Danny tested and included a special space for the crossover box, so they were not normal stands. Also, there were other differences between Series 1 and 2 besides including the stands, plus the amount of inflation since 2006. The Series 2 was produced from 2013-2020, so the $22,500 price was from 2020 and included Series 2 improvements, and inflation from 2006-2020, and the stands. But no one is claiming that Wilson speakers are cost effective. Wilson Audio exists because there are enough wealthy people who don't really care what the price is.
You can work that out by taking the speed of sound in meters per second (343) and diving it by the cone diameter in meters (0.2mt for 200mm). 343 divided by 0.2 = 1715Hz (1.715kHz)
a bigger tweeter is not needed - a bigger one only makes sense at very high listening levels. This can be fixed with the same driver by rising the crossover frequency. Downfall then is a downgrade in clarity and more beaming coming from the woofer.
Is this speaker the original Wilson Duette Series I made from about 2005-2013 or the Wilson Duette Series II made from about 2013-2020 (both versions are now retired)? I think the date of manufacture and exact model should be disclosed. Since no mention of Series II was made, I assume it is the original model first released about 2005. I remember when Danny reviewed one of the very first Eggleston speakers which was made about 1997 and a lot of people just assumed it was a current, or fairly recent model (which obviously it was not).
There is a lot of skill involved in getting these well crafted and expensive speakers to show a desirable (linear) frequency response curve in an acoustically prepared testing room. Even after this is accomplished , they are not likely to provide the same performance in the listening room that they will be used in.There are factors of listening room characteristics, and where speakers are placed in it, that must be addressed. With a calibrated testing mic ( like the miniDSP UMIK-1) and REW software installed on a laptop computer, anyone can make measurements to determine how their speakers are performing in their listening room. The graphs which Danny displays appear to be slightly "smoothed", but that could be the result of testing in an anechoic room. ( Note: some speakers designers like Siegfried Linkwitz are said to prefer untreated listening rooms because their designs are meant to couple with the room environment.) There is also room compensation/correction software (like Dirac Live) which uses digital processing to optimize stereo and surround sound systems. This technology is relatively inexpensive and would certainly be something to consider by anyone wanting to make the most of their optimized, or not so optimal, speakers.
Our measurements are done using a gated time window that removes all reflections. So they are just measurements of the speaker only (no room). We use an industry standard 1/3rd octave smoothing.
@@dannyrichie9743 Isn't that degree of smoothing chosen by the industry trying to sell a speaker rather than analyze its performance? If this much smoothing was not applied, the response would appear much more ragged on the graphs, but could also be indicative of the accuracy/stablity of the drivers. So rather than just tweaking a crossover, repairing/ replacing a failing driver ( like a tweeter with dryed-up ferrofluid) may be indicated. How much attention do you give to distortion percentages? In amplifiers the odd order harmonics ( esp.- third) are thought to be most unpleasant to listeners. Is this also something of concern in speaker design? P.S. - Checked out your "Flat Speakers are Boring " video which gives a good explanation of some of the factors that cannot be ascertained by measurements alone.
@@mitchdowning8188 I often look at the measurements unsmoothed. You have to be careful not to get too hung up on trying to flatten out an unsmoothed curve. There are way too many little wiggles in the response that you just can't address. At some point you have to look at an average response. Real distortion measurements are hard to take, and have no standard. They also vary with level. So it is best to not get hung up on the numbers. You can't conclude that the lower the number they better they sound. We see this often in amplifiers.
That is a way to simple view of the world and how speakers work. Anechoic on-axis response and room response are both important, but for different reasons. You can't simply get a microphone and REW and fix all that ills a speaker.
@@robertt7238 Agreed. Only a ( theoretical ) speaker that is designed to couple with any room and have accurate response can proclude the need for room treatment/ correction to achieve high fidelity ( however it is defined).
These are the Wilson Duette Series I made from about 2005-2013. The Wilson Duette Series II was made from about 2013-2020 (both versions are now retired).
It seems that the measurement was with the speakers a long way away from a wall to get the full (nearly) baffle step loss. Is tha a realistic scenario to compensate? Would anyone have speakers like that in a room large enough to get that far away from boundaries? And would they put them that far away, given the lack of baffle step compensation?
I listened to the speakers with proper setup, according to the manual. On-axis and 10 degree off axis were IN YOUR FACE. Pointed straight ahead was manageable. The quality / parts were worth making "right" to suit my taste.
@mcgovernjimmy I can believe it - just that I would have expected a fixed baffle step compensation to be less aggressive than 5 or 6db unless its something designed for free space placement. That the driver is forward is possibly a seperate issue. Also interesting that small changes in toe-in are having that impact, given that up to about 1kHz I'd have expected the off-axis response of the midbass to be fairly constant out to beyond 30 degrees - surely toe-in is normally tweaking trebble response from tweeter beaming?.
@@jamesmansion2572 To make the speakers more listenable, besides pushing them toward the wall and pointing them straight ahead, I also pushed them further apart - to increase the off axis angle. "Free Space Placement" makes the issue even worse and I think it's why they provide a high ohm set of resistors to turn the tweeter down more. By the way, I tried the "Free Space" resistors with the speaker setup near the wall... opposite what the manual says to do. I tried to turn down the "in your face" property with that. All that did was keep them "in my face" and dull the sound. I think if you look at the measurements from Danny, it's the 1-2k area that is the big problem. It's not just the tweeter in that range... the woofer needed to be turned down there as well.
So these cost one grand more than Wolf von langa SON, with 11 inch Field Coil woofer with passive radiator and high end mundorf AMT in open baffle. 70% of Wilson prices is marketing.
The lack of baffle step compensation is simply Wilson's way of making a strong unspoken sales pitch for a subwoofer. They don't want to make it sound too close to their $100k speakers. If they did that, they would never sell the expensive stuff.
Yes. This speaker with dual subs makes their floorstanding speakers a much more difficult sale... if people are actually buying based on performance, and not Look / Bling.
For the Inductive loaded "Umbilical" cables to have any sonic effect differences, a Measurable Inductance difference should exist between the 2 cables & similar length of standard Normal Inductive speaker cable....There are many Affordable accurate digital LCR meters available....Possibly a missed Opportunity to measure the "Inductive" Umbilical cables was missed ??
I have not heard The Bully; however, I'm certain it is a superior value compared to this speaker - even at used Wilson pricing. I like this speaker and wanted to make it better. It is special and different than the Bully. I like owning nice and special things.
I've been building speakers for over 30 years and I went and demoed some Sasha. V's a few weeks ago. The Wilson Audio guy asked me how they sounded, and I told him a few issues on what was some problems. He instantly got pissed at me. It wasn't even about the speakers but the room that they were in.
If their speakers don't sound sublime to you YOU'RE the problem. The emperor is wearing a beautiful robe, trust me... that's not his taint you're seeing.
There's a lot of high end gear that often does not measure all that great. Do people even bother to measure WA speakers costing 200-300+ k? As he said, it's more audio jewelry and a "house sound" at that point it appears.
It appears that this is the original Wilson Duette Series I made from about 2005-2013, so that should be taken into account if considering a new speaker model from any company. Plus, even though Wilson is a high-end speaker manufacturer, not many would have considered this as one of their mid-range or high-end models.
@@Mark-rw3kw Nonsense. When I was in touch with Wilson about this speaker, the person I spoke to spoke glowingly of them. In fact, he mentioned "one of our main guys" still uses them in his office. Your point in this thread seems to be to put strawmen into the conversation and make moot points about when the speaker was made. It's a high quality speaker that now has had the hands of a professional crossover designer on them. It's going to be a great speaker when it's all done. Stop making excuses for Wilson Audio. It is what it is.
@@mcgovernjimmy I am not making excuses for anyone. I personally would not buy a Wilson speaker for a number of reasons, as I have explained several times. But it is worth noting that Series 1 speaker Danny tested dates back to 2006, was upgraded in 2013 (Series 2), and was replaced by the Tune Tot in 2020, so obviously they know there are improvements that can could be made to the original. Making the 2006 Series 1 Duette a representation of the entire Wilson brand is the ultimate strawman fallacy since everyone knows that the other models made them well known in audio circles. Nevertheless, even with the improvements made by Wilson (and Danny), I am sure they sound pretty good anyway, especially when used as "office" speakers (what a joke).
It's a 10k + speaker, it should sound great and measure great, period. As you say, making excuses for WA is silly. It is also a fact that it's common that uber high end gear does not measure well as that's not usually why people purchase it. Big $ stuff usually has a "house sound" you either like or you don't, and due to its costs, pretty looks, and bragging rights, people convince themselves it sounds great... @@mcgovernjimmy
I own a pair of Wilson Audio Sabrina X. Everyone is entitled to their opinions about what good sound is. I also think who are we to judge how people want to spend their hard earned money? Isn’t this hobby about enjoying music and high level reproduction to get us (the listener) as close to the sound of the original recording as possible? I’ve always aspired to moving up and owning better quality audio equipment. For me that’s been part of the fun. As a long time audiophile who didn’t always have top quality gear, I appreciated all of it at every level. As there diminishing returns the higher up you go? Absolutely! But better is better. And these Wilson’s are the best sounding speakers I’ve ever owned. I’d be interested to hear if Danny thinks he could make them better?
Sounds like you’re now terrified that WA have done a similarly cr@p job on your speakers and conned you out of $$$$$ As the Sabrina x are 3-way there is a good chance that the crossover between the woofer and mid has helped compensate for baffle step loss. But who knows? Maybe WA’s house sound is to have a non-flat midrange? I’ve never liked any WA speakers I’ve heard. Ugly and bright sounding. If you want to hear the music as it was originally created then you should seek out a speaker that has flat on-axis response and optimised directivity for accurate off-axis response. Check out anything that has a clean set of measurements using a Klippel nearfield scanner. This includes distortion measurements, something that Danny doesn’t publish in his videos, but definitely useful information about how a speaker sounds.
Matt, dude, seriously. He listened to the speakers and he liked them. He knew what they cost and he thought they were worth it. He still likes them. They didn't con him and he's not worried in the least that he didn't get his money's worth. And, really, on what planet would he be "terrified" of any of this? Do you actually live in fear that products you like and pay a lot of money for may one day be deemed inferior according to one man's opinion of it? Your opinion of Wilson is your opinion and completely irrelevant to anyone but you. Guys like you and Danny have this idea in your head about how a speaker should measure and if it doesn't well then it can't sound great. But, again, that's an opinion, not a fact. Danny knows how to make a pretty response graph and for people who think like him and have his taste I'm sure they will like his designs. I'm in the camp of if I like it then I like it. If I think it's worth it then I think it's worth it. Heck, for all I know the speakers I like may measure the way Danny likes them to measure. But if they don't then I don't care because I'm never going to measure them. Nor am I going to worry about whether some measurement wizard or one of his minions thinks I'm wrong. When he's paying for the speakers he gets a say. Until then he's just a dude selling his opinion.
@@mattholland315 Of all the measurements that can be made on a speaker, the distortion measurements tell you little to nothing about how a speaker will sound. It can highlight a problem if there is one, but differences of 1% or 2% are hardly audible and indistinguishable from the music. The same is true for distortion measurements of amplifiers. 1%, .1%, or .01% is not a measure of sound quality.
@@dannyrichie9743 completely agree with respect to low levels of THD, but the whole point of measuring THD is to spot problems as you say. Also, we can see how capable the bass driver(s) is in terms of controlling distortion. Yes THD is less of an issue subjectively as lower frequencies, but I do think we should be striving to reduce THD as much as possible because it certainly it is audible if high enough
You know Danny , I bet you make a few manufacturers of these speakers really nervous when they see their speakers on your workbench . You're good Danny and you don't spread bullshit , you just tell it like it is . There needs to be more like you . Keep up the great work .
with such freq resp messed up, how on earth they are better than super flat Neumann KH 150,active, with 245wpc amps built in? which go for $3k vs duette 2 for $20k ?
Don’t forget Philharmonic Audio. Their speakers are probably the most accurate, passive designs, anywhere. They are truth tellers. They achieve +/- 1.5 dB, without active DSP.
>I think the extra 'different' cables supplied is a good thing, also thinking what amplification class is connected this includes something like McIntosh's 'output-auto-former' are all very diff styles of amplification could/should be part of final resounding performance could be noticed is where these cables are handy but here you need deep pockets like US-Jay who goes through boulder amps like underpants.. sometimes< #turnkey solution - scanspeak
i am still annoyed that that amount of money and you still get ported box. i know that bass is the foundation and reviewers only listen to them alone, you still need a subwoofer to make a complete system, full range reproduction should be the baseline.
I would love to hear a subjective comparison of the original and Danny's modified speakers. It should be performed by someone who doesn't own Wilson speakers and doesn't care much about them one way or the other. I would not be surprised if they found Danny's versions to be more accurate, but the originals somehow sounding extra pleasing nevertheless.
Typically Danny only gets one of the speakers sent to him for measurement and upgrade. So he "may" do a mono listening test, but not a stereo test that should be done for a true listing test. I am not criticizing that he only gets one of the speakers, because shipping costs to him and back to the owner are not cheap, and he is mainly doing measurement tests.
@@Mark-rw3kw Danny addressed this in his answer to Jay Lee 5 months ago. The video is titled: Jay's got some good points. Let me clarify a few things. I tried to share a link, but these often don't take on this platform for some reason.
@@kenhiett5266 I think that in many cases, a poorly designed room is what the designer anticipates. But to me, both accuracy and clarity are very important. You can change the room.
The main reason to pot in this case is to hide the parts used. If you take a torch to it you can melt the bitnum off. Then brush the pcb with carb cleaner or something. Used to depot RMA power supplies at a previous job.
@@BobFrostV parts and circuit, surely?.. but still a bit of overkill. better to spend all that money on better parts and just do the job right instead of hiding stuff under the carpet.
That curved baffle around the tweeter is the worst possible shape for getting a flat response. But it looks nice and thats clearly Wilsons priority over performance.
Jamo Concert 11 - Please Danny. I'm from South Africa and about to drop a LOT of money on original crossover but better components. Would rather pay YOU the money for a proper crossover :-)
Have you ever thought of offering your services to speaker manufacturers like Wilson to help them with their designs? Maybe as a consultant to analyze their final design ideas. You would probably in very high demand! And Amir also found what he called "engineering errors" in Wilson Tune Tots. You guys could be a huge asset to us consumers!
The speaker reviewed here is the Wilson Duette Series I made from about 2005-2013. The Wilson Duette Series II was made from about 2013-2020 (both versions are now retired). So they obviously made some changes in 2013 with the Series II, and they don't make either model anymore.
Can’t really imagine any prestige brand availing themselves of such design/engineering services, or if they did, almost certainly NDAs would be involved.
@@fonkenful Danny has done design work for some companies that he has mentioned in his videos. There "may" be other companies he has not mentioned because of a NDA.
@@Mark-rw3kw I should possibly have added air quotes around the word prestige - a term that in my own experience in the hobby can be interchanged with hubris.
@@fonkenful For them to get this level of expertise, I'm certain they would be thrilled to sign NDAs. Just imagine the positive impact on Wilson's sound quality and therefore sales volume if they had Danny on board to both oversee their designs and also educate them. Probably the same with Magico, etc.
The different cables may still be affecting lower frequencies? The measurements stop at 200Hz and those cables are supposed to affect boundary gain which would be in the lower frequencies.
I would have to listen to both cables for myself. My curiosity would force me to do it. Drawn copper wire has a directional grain and I have personally eliminated room boom by flipping the direction of the ground side of the speaker pair.
Each episode is a lesson. Wonderful.
Excellent, thank you!
One reason the original x-over is boosted in the mid-band is so Wilson could increase their efficiency rating over the choice of a smoother fq response. Also rigid port tubes are resonant by nature. Why pipe organs use rigid pipes. I always roll my own port tubes using cork. That way the port tube is a rigid pipe at low frequencies but as the frequency increases, the cork is a great media for reducing resonances.
so you wrap cork around the port tube interior? will felt also work?
No, it is pure cork. I use 1/8 to 3/16" cork sheet applying masking tape where the seam is on the inside with half the tapes width exposed so when the cork rolled around the former, the other edge is held in place with the inner masking tape. Then wood glue completes the bond. Then a second layer of masking tape is applied to the outside to cover the seam. I use PVC pipe for the former making sure that the cork is not too tight so once glue is cured, I can slip the cork cylinder off from the form. This compliant/flexible tube virtually eliminates most pipe resonances, yet at low frequencies the tube acts as a rigid structure. I first saw this cork port tube in Goldmund Dialgue speakers many years ago. I immediately understood the advantage of this design. Maybe Goldmund has a patent on this, I don't know. Since I only build custom designs, it doesn't effect me.
Cool idea. But rigidity at low frequency would be dependant on their resonan frequency. Once excited they will oscillate and wobble around at their resonant frequency.
Affect.
This was a cool video. I enjoyed it. Beautifully built speakers. Thanks for sharing.
Appreciate this video of my favorite speaker manufacture.
Thank you for the clear explanation
This was quite fascinating, they've gone about it strangely. Have you ever reviewed the Dynaudio Confidence C1, I'd love to know how they performed.
Bonjour de la France............ avant j'ai possédé BW, KEF, SPENDOR, TRIANGLE, HARBETH........ et maintenant j'ai des enceintes acoustiques bibliothèque avec MarkAudio Pluvia 11 sans filtre, et j'ai aussi un subwoofer REL Acoustics pour la configuration 2.1 avec un amplificateur LYNGDORF TDAI-3400.......... ma vie a complétement changé, je suis un homme heureux, mes oreilles sont très contentes et jamais fatiguées.......... et voilà, merci MarkAudio, car avec l'argent économisé, j'achète encore plus de disques, plus de musique.
>Noticed on APC site a tech-note indicates "dB & damping factor loss due to cable resistance" they indicate certain cable gauge with added length appears to change 'damping-factor' a strange measurement not often mentioned or understood when it is - myself included.
Big fan of what you do watch alot as for this one all I can say is nice to have money 💰 thanks again keep it going 👍
I own these speakers looking forward to seeing what you put together for these!
Keep track on AudioCircle. I plan to make a nice enclosure for the crossover. 👍
@@thomasmleahy6218 The struggle is real, Bro…
Good video. Can’t wait to hear about this customers reviews in the forum. Is it me or is the felt ring around the tweeter off center? I’m asking because I was planning on putting some felt around my tweeter and I was also going to put it off center
Brutal. Yikes. You all but said 'snake oil'.
You handled everything about that video way better than I would have. The phone call made me laugh, you managed far better.
Excellent production all around. Very informative, as usual.
Don't ever change, this is just too good! Please carry on!
The duette is designed to stand close to the wall, that is why they didn't provide it with a baffle step correction the roomgain would/ should balance this out.
Close to the wall with a rear port?
I learned that was not the way to place rear ported speakers.
@@anthonyjackson7097 I don't know if the Duette was in fact designed to be close to a rear wall, but typically the mid-size and larger Wilson speakers are designed to be at least 4-6 feet from the rear wall, so "close to the wall" may be a relative term.
@@anthonyjackson7097 Totally depends on the speaker. If a speaker is weak in the low end or midbass, placing it 6" or so from the wall or corner will typically make it better just like @smaudi said. If a rear ported speaker is already fat in the low end it's best to keep it a couple feet away from the wall and avoid corners.
Even if that were the goal, they would have still had to adjust for the baffle step loss and create a more gradual decrease in output across the lower end to balance out boundary reinforcement. I might add that they also include a cable and a resistor for the tweeter designed for free standing use, on their stands, that the customer also owns.
@edjackson4389
Yeah, I understand your point. I feel that using walls to correct baffle step is not the way to go about it. Minus 3+dB at frequencies right in the Fletcher Munson curve will not go unnoticed. For speakers approaching $15,000.00 a pair, what is another cap, coil, and resistor going to matter to the profit margin? While nice-looking speakers, there is nowhere near with stand included $15,000.00 worth of parts. Any manufacturer charging this kind of money should have baffle step compensation, Period! You shouldn't have to use the walls, like you own a pair of Bose 901's.
Kinda wish Danny had tried some budget copper 8 gauge wires to compare with the supplied cables.😂🤣☮️🇦🇺
My preference is battery cables. Always connect Negative last and remove Negative first. Safety!
@@mcgovernjimmyAgree! I like how well the powerful spring loaded terminal clips grip my binding posts with their jagged, nine nines oxygen free copper teeth.
Am sure he thought of it maybe even tried but thought it best to not embarrass them too much lol
Interesting stuff for sure. Was wondering if you guys hooked these up for a listen, and if so, what were your subjective thoughts?
Just an additional FIY, while the crossovers are potted. There are a lot of binding posts, and internal screws, nuts, and washers connecting everything. All of the binging posts, internal screws, and nuts are either Copper, Brass, or Aluminum. However, there are two resistors above the potted crossovers that are connected using a connecting junction, and the resistors are held down with and twisted around steel screws.
Oh dear. Spoiling the job for a Ha'f penny of tar? Tripping just before the finish line...
For some reason factory positive and negative pairs always have the positive and negative running in the same direction. What if Wilson flipped the negative side on the “near wall” set to eliminate the room boom? I think they would measure exactly the same but sound different. I’m a fan of yours Danny! I am going to build a pair of your speakers some day. Love the videos!
How would that remove boom?
Different loudspeakers for different applications but if one compares the response curves to a Genelec or Neumann - Wilson is just audio jewellery, pure bling. Thankfully, recording engineers aren’t using Wilson for monitoring.
It helped him aquire a high end lifestyle, certainly wasn't driving a Toyota Camry, and just how big and posh was his home?
Many recording engineers use monitors that aren't all that flat, or even ones that they would never use to listen to the music outside their work. Of course that doesn't apply to all of them but the point is that the important part is truly knowing the monitor you're using and how it relates to the sound you want to achieve.
@@storkfletcher821true, there are many engineers using focal and dynaudio monitors, as long as you know their pros and cons you can do the job.
>Slightly brave careful which words are chosen on this one - this will be fun.. :) *this is what's all about! *ultimately a consumer is paying not just for a specific design but also 'iteration' within a range is why designers/manufactures can call their price, look at Magico when you thought no more re-design could ever happen to a baffle one man does something entirely new to compliment their own or OEM spec drivers with semi-exotic materials, nothing better than this fabulous & infinite subject.
before and after video please. Great work.
Having listened to many in room TH-cam demos of Wilson speakers from their midrange Sasha to Alexa or whatever all the way up to their top of the line speakers, they all sound very forward and in your face. So I think that’s the Wilson sound. I’m surprised your customer bought these speakers not knowing that in advance.
I think this particular customer bought them used.
Wilson audio:
"BS loss?? No more BS,
Danny just exposed us! GRrr!"
The speakers reviewed here were first released in 2005 and are no longer made.
@@Mark-rw3kw
Nevertheless still an embarrassment.
They're on the second hand market and what about all the poor(!) people who were fooled for 20y years?
A reviewer named "Mark" just bought a pair. Hope he finds this upgrade;-)
At least there's now a fix!
Thanks Danny
@@carlitomelon4610 I personally am not a fan of Wilson speakers, simply from a price performance point of view (plus they are often butt ugly). However, I don't think the 2005 Duette Series 1 is an embarrassment. I don't know what you mean by fooled for 20 years. You can go back and read reviews of the original Duette Series 1 and see what others thought of the way it sounded. If you want to see a recent embarrassment, see the GR-Research original LGK (Little Giant Killer with one full range driver) and how it was reviewed on ASR and other sites. Fortunately, Danny released some new LGK versions that included adding additional low frequency drivers (and not just some crossover or other minor changes) to address the problem. What ASR revealed is that the tests that Danny does are not comprehensive enough, or do not include listening tests, to uncover a major flaw in a speaker system. Nobody in this world is perfect, and I think there is room in the audio world to appreciate both Wilson and GR-Research, regardless of whether their older products needed improvements. BTW, I didn't purchase a used Wilson. I am not a fan of 2-way "bookshelf" or stand-mount designs. I also not a fan of buying any audio gear that old.
@@Mark-rw3kw
Heres what i was referring to Mark
th-cam.com/video/07BoRc3ZL_8/w-d-xo.htmlfeature=shared
@@Mark-rw3kw I have been listening to these upgraded Duette for a while now and I can tell you this... Your opinion of Danny / GR Research and constant sniping against him is laughably disconnected from the reality of what he produces. These Duette speakers, with Danny's new crossover, are now SPECTACULAR. Your constant sniping and making excuses for any speaker he fixes is obsessive and offers no value to the conversation, other that to be an example to others to be careful the credence you place into the opinion of others on the internet... most especially anyone referencing Audio "Science" Review. I hope you have a great day!
Always top infos great job , thanks a lot
Danny. Great video and tuning. Please consider a more greyish/beige background. Could hardly see the black speakers that blended with the black background. Thanks. Same with the screenshot of the X-statics.
Hope you pkan on making grills available on your old school series as my 4 legged kiddos would love to see what its like to claw on those drivers.
It’s really nice these days to use DSP to emulate notch filters, baffle response, and other xover changes without calculating and adding lots of inductors, caps, resistors etc to the huge parts count of a passive xover. Saves me lots of $ stocking parts for experiments! I have worked on speakers like Krell with over 30 components in the xover.
Yeah, but the DSP system have their drawbacks too.
@@dannyrichie9743 Of course, but surely you will admit it’s a pretty quick way to explore different xovers, slopes, etc without getting out the soldering iron and raiding the parts bin?
@@sydbarrett1146 I admit, it can be a fun tool, and good for learning.
The best DSP system I've used is offered by UPS ground... when I send the speaker to Danny to fix it. Although, I'm beginning to prefer FedEx these days. 🏁🏁🏁
And with dsp you need a power amp for each channel unlike passive
I can't help but wonder if sometimes the design team gets the first crack at the speakers, and then says to the technicians, here this is what you have to work with.
visual design? yes i agree, especially if they're working on a whole new line with a new look, the artistic / product designers will have a visual design into which a speaker has to be inserted, and the production cost accountants will be controlling the price of what goes in. but strange they spend all that dough on a potted external crossover and not put the money into foil inductors and really good caps and resistors..
This should be interesting.... No surprises, love the jewelry comment (sadly I find this in most speakers I see/hear).
Hi Danny, thank you for your kind reply. I understand it but I thought maybe in the past years you might have modified the crossover for these speakers and I was interested to buy the components from you in a kit form.
If he is not already, sounds like he needs to start a TH-cam channel. Would love to watch some of the setup and comparisons.
Feel free to hang out at AudioCircle. If you want to click my name here, you'll be seeing stuff about driving cars on racetracks.
Thanks for this. I always wonder about the really high end stuff.
This isn't "really high end".
@@Kowinaida Wilson isn't high end?
@@Kowinaida This isn't a high end 2-way speaker?
@richardsmith2721 Yes but you said "really high end" so I construed that as Chronosonic XVX, Estelon Extreme etc.
@@Kowinaida Danny called it really high end.. I considered the brand and not the model.
You'd think that a high end company would get the basics right before adding all the jewelry.
I was lucky to listen to a pair of Alexx V on mono blocks and a great front end. Probably the most precise and balanced speakers that I’ve listened to.
B&W 801’s on McIntosh are beautiful. I’ve heard Magico M3 and a lot of really high end stuff like Focal’s Utopia EVO. I have a few favourites for different reasons.
The Alexx V were remarkable. Their Sophia left me very underwhelmed though. I imagine that I’d feel the same about these little 2 ways.
Vážím si tvé práce.
Postavit se práci konstruktérů Willson Audia chce dovahu. Držím palce ❤️
Translation: I appreciate your work. It takes courage to stand up to the work of Willson Audio's designers. I'm keeping my fingers crossed ❤
Wilson Audio uses proprietary composite material X material, V material etc.
Types of solid surface, probably rebranded
Your Southwest Track Club Sprinters top could do with a matching cape
and skull cap. You should do it and wear it on one of your next videos.
Hey Danny. This quote from John Mark’s review in Stereophile mag may help explain the decision to not use Baffle Step Comp: “The Duette was designed to be used in nonoptimal placements, such as on a credenza or mantel, or in a bookcase or built-in cabinet.” I can see it in John’s measurements, and he mentions it also.
I set the speakers up per the instructions in the manual... "Near Wall" resistors for 24" or less from front wall, etc. The problem is that even setup closer to the wall with boundary reinforcement, I still have to listen to them way off axis - pointed straight ahead. Even 10 degree off axis is fatiguing. If Wilson "intended them to be this way and let's not account for any baffle step compensation"... well, I don't like it. And now Danny has fixed it... The problem "hear" isn't the end user or improper setup. A good buddy of mine has a pair and he's doing the upgrade as well.
@@mcgovernjimmythanks for the response. I get what you’re saying, just maybe trying to help explain that portion of Wilson’s design choice (not that I necessarily agree with it). Enjoy!
If one were to design a speaker for close wall placement, the step loss still has to be accounted for. Then it is the ranges below 100Hz or so that are softened a little to mirror the gain of the front wall.
@@rehn1kri Thank you for sharing and I understand what you meant. I think this project is going to turn out great.
Why spend $12,000 on any speaker to put in or on a shelf? That is total nonsense...
I've never heard Duette speakers, but it's obvious that the design of them is very different from most other Wilson speakers. As a result it's probably not possible to make a valid generalization from this video about most of their other products. I recently traded a pair of Spatial M-4 speakers for a pair of WATT 7 speakers and was surprised that the imaging and soundstage when going to a non open baffle design didn't change a lot. For sure the WATT 7 speakers delivered more low frequency impact. In my set up the Wilsons were on balance an upgrade. Not sure that would be the case if I had a pair of Spatial X-4 speakers.
I would really be interested about your thoughts for improvement on the Musician Night one speaker. Does it have good bones or not worth the 2000.00 Canadian.
When you go to Heaven God is going to commission you you to fix his speakers. I noticed that the bass port opening is not flared. It is counter productive to use relatively expensive aluminium without flaring when ironically , cheap flared plastic tubing would have been far better acoustically.
When the port is just big enough for the application then flaring it will help as there is high air velocity. However, if the port is oversized for the job, air velocity is not an issue. So making the port bigger in diameter and longer (keeping the same tuning) reduces port noise as well.
This is kind of OT, but what's your impression of the network style cables from MIT and particularly Transparent.
Hi Danny, thank you for generous and informative videos. I have pair of yamaha NS-6490 speakers, beyond changing each crossover components is there any other crossover that I can build to improve sound of drivers? Thank you
Crossovers have to be designed specifically for each application.
I wonder what amps and sources u like ? LISTS ?
Nice to see speaker that are HiEnd
I would love to see the measurements of Oswald Mill Audio (OMA) speakers. Their prices compared to Wilson make Wilson look like it should be sold at Walmart.
yeah measure their monitors with large horns , they also have 8 incher in a ported cube box. worst shape for standing waves- perfect cube. price is around 25 grand if i remember correctly
@quant2011
You are right about that mini speaker. But I have seen where sometimes a designer will design the inside to not be acoustically a perfect square. They use various shaped installation to make the speaker see the box as the golden ratio.
Good job Danny. Whenever anyone accuses you of selling snake oil I I compare GR research to companies like Wilson and PS Audio. You offer quality products at a fair price and they sell insanely overpriced products that don’t perform well. It’s clear who is really peddling snake oil.
Detractors are clueless - it's like throwing pearls to swine. The upgrade I did to my B&Ws was fantastic!
It is all snake oil salesmanship
Would've loved to join in on that A-B listening compare, hope there is improvement.
obviously there is a huge improvement, duh.
@@Artcore103 Don't remember asking you.
@@dunkelheit843 comments are asking for comment, period. To even ask the question shows that you are not even sure that the glaring issues in the original product being fixed, and having a much better and smoother response, may not actually sound better. That tells me you're the perfect Wilson customer, go spend your 30k because the brand name and magazine reviews tell you it's great, and it has prestige... I'll enjoy my 2000 dollar diy speakers that are objectively better in every way besides being fancy furniture.
It was a silly statement mate, and I gave my 2c, deal with it. That's TH-cam.
@@Artcore103 It wasen't a question, just hoping the new filter lets him enjoy the speaker more.
Don't see the point of you starting to flame me for that.
wow ! ESP! I was thinking about how well the wilson"s behave. eye opener ! thanks !
a lot of issues for a 12k pair of speakers.
This speaker is meant to work well close to a wall, or even on an actual bookshelf. Compromises might have been made to account for near wall boundary loading, and at first blush it looks like the places where the response is 'sculpted' are consistent with that end goal because they are places where close boundaries would tend to 'thicken' the sound.
Even if that were the goal, they would have still had to adjust for the baffle step loss and create a more gradual decrease in output across the lower end to balance out boundary reinforcement. I might add that they also include a cable and a resistor for the tweeter designed for free standing use, on their stands, that the customer also owns.
Have you owned / listened to the Duette? There's no "setup issue / he didn't do it right" going on here. The speakers are "HYPER resolving" with the original crossover. I set these speakers up closer than 24" to the front wall and used the "Near Wall" resistors... both per the manual. For my enjoyment, I had to aim the speakers straight ahead and listen to them way off axis, so they didn't melt my face. Associated gear is all top shelf Ayre Acoustics - QB9 Twenty DAC, Ayre KX-5 Twenty preamp, Ayre VX-5 Twenty amp. A friend owns the same speaker, and also a pair of Alexia. We're both doing the upgrade on the Duette. This is a traumatic experience for some... it's gonna be OK. 🏁🏁🏁
very interesting, thanks! But a flat frequency response without phase control is easy, why do you not care about phase? do you like pink noise so much? ;-) Please reverse the HT cable +- plugs and show us the FR (dip).
Hey danny great content as usual, it baffles me that a pair of speakers costing 12 grand, and they still fuck it up it can.t b that they didn.t have enough pennies in the jar to meet the price point, i want to change my speakers at some point, but im lost , u just do not know what ur buying these days.....
Halo , i have been.watched your video all day long is very good well explained .
Sir has good reviewed to all the equipment stuff n crossover is just normal quality , my opinion you should share some short video sound before and after renew caps , so all users have some new experience with their speaker what is it like from normal to good n great ! tq tq
I guess those cables may have somewhat different resistance in order to adjust Qes and Qts of a midbass driver. So at a port tunning frequency woofer could be more "loose" or more "tight".
Not really unless they have really high resistance like several hundred milliohms. That short of a cable it would be really thin copper.
Maybe they thought the higher efficiency above the step loss would appeal to people with lower output tube amps with a warm balance.....
Hi have you ever tested the Legacy Focus SE stock speaker . thanks
No, but I do have photos of some of their crossovers.
Do you ever look at powered speakers, as in studio monitors?
We've had some come through. If you think cost is skimped on passive crossovers, you haven't seen anything yet.
So…you’re not impressed!? For doing remote recording, they are really handy but of course you have to wonder how they can make the speakers and amps for such low prices. (Read, cheap parts ??) I appreciate your knowledge of speakers and the education that you are providing. Keep up the great work.
After more then 40 years audio sick . I now one thing .i gonna buy youre Gear. Thanks Gr research.
The Wilson Audio Duette Ver 1 was $12,500 no stands. Ver 2 came out in 7-8 years ago starting at $22,500 but includes stands.
From what I could find, the original Wilson Duette Series I (apparently the one reviewed here) was made from about 2005-2013 and the Wilson Duette Series II was made from about 2013-2020 (both versions are now retired). These dates may not be exact, but are close.
@@Mark-rw3kw While the Duette is nice Ver 1 and 2… I think the Wilson Audio Sabrina X is a better choice. Possibly why both are discontinued.
@@epi2045 Sabrina X is a larger and more expensive 3-way floor standing speaker. I think the Tune Tot has replaced the Duette, but obviously Wilson is better known for its larger floor standing speakers.
10 grand for the stands, you're better off buying the Wharfedale Elysian 4 for the price of the stands, RIP OFF.
@@charlieyang2613 The stands were not $10K, they were $1,795/pair on the Series 1 model that Danny tested and included a special space for the crossover box, so they were not normal stands. Also, there were other differences between Series 1 and 2 besides including the stands, plus the amount of inflation since 2006. The Series 2 was produced from 2013-2020, so the $22,500 price was from 2020 and included Series 2 improvements, and inflation from 2006-2020, and the stands. But no one is claiming that Wilson speakers are cost effective. Wilson Audio exists because there are enough wealthy people who don't really care what the price is.
Any amp recommendation for those duets?
I'm using an Ayre VX-5 Twenty with the Duette. I love my Ayre equipment.
wonder does they have some production error going on. I don't think that this eq fault is intentionally.
What frequency do 8" drivers usually start to beam and ruin the off axis response? And do you need a big tweeter that goes lower to fix that?
Rule of thumb has been 1,500 to 1,900Hz.
You can work that out by taking the speed of sound in meters per second (343) and diving it by the cone diameter in meters (0.2mt for 200mm). 343 divided by 0.2 = 1715Hz (1.715kHz)
Thank you for that handy formula.@@haycrossaudio5474
a bigger tweeter is not needed - a bigger one only makes sense at very high listening levels. This can be fixed with the same driver by rising the crossover frequency. Downfall then is a downgrade in clarity and more beaming coming from the woofer.
@@ahnenpost5237but still the directivity will be different for a non waveguided small tweeter
The watt/puppy 5 measured terribly too.
Is this speaker the original Wilson Duette Series I made from about 2005-2013 or the Wilson Duette Series II made from about 2013-2020 (both versions are now retired)? I think the date of manufacture and exact model should be disclosed. Since no mention of Series II was made, I assume it is the original model first released about 2005. I remember when Danny reviewed one of the very first Eggleston speakers which was made about 1997 and a lot of people just assumed it was a current, or fairly recent model (which obviously it was not).
There is a lot of skill involved in getting these well crafted and expensive speakers to show a desirable (linear) frequency response curve in an acoustically prepared testing room. Even after this is accomplished , they are not likely to provide the same performance in the listening room that they will be used in.There are factors of listening room characteristics, and where speakers are placed in it, that must be addressed. With a calibrated testing mic ( like the miniDSP UMIK-1) and REW software installed on a laptop computer, anyone can make measurements to determine how their speakers are performing in their listening room. The graphs which Danny displays appear to be slightly "smoothed", but that could be the result of testing in an anechoic room. ( Note: some speakers designers like Siegfried Linkwitz are said to prefer untreated listening rooms because their designs are meant to couple with the room environment.) There is also room compensation/correction software (like Dirac Live) which uses digital processing to optimize stereo and surround sound systems. This technology is relatively inexpensive and would certainly be something to consider by anyone wanting to make the most of their optimized, or not so optimal, speakers.
Our measurements are done using a gated time window that removes all reflections. So they are just measurements of the speaker only (no room). We use an industry standard 1/3rd octave smoothing.
@@dannyrichie9743 Isn't that degree of smoothing chosen by the industry trying to sell a speaker rather than analyze its performance? If this much smoothing was not applied, the response would appear much more ragged on the graphs, but could also be indicative of the accuracy/stablity of the drivers. So rather than just tweaking a crossover, repairing/ replacing a failing driver ( like a tweeter with dryed-up ferrofluid) may be indicated. How much attention do you give to distortion percentages? In amplifiers the odd order harmonics ( esp.- third) are thought to be most unpleasant to listeners. Is this also something of concern in speaker design? P.S. - Checked out your "Flat Speakers are Boring " video which gives a good explanation of some of the factors that cannot be ascertained by measurements alone.
@@mitchdowning8188 I often look at the measurements unsmoothed. You have to be careful not to get too hung up on trying to flatten out an unsmoothed curve. There are way too many little wiggles in the response that you just can't address. At some point you have to look at an average response.
Real distortion measurements are hard to take, and have no standard. They also vary with level. So it is best to not get hung up on the numbers. You can't conclude that the lower the number they better they sound. We see this often in amplifiers.
That is a way to simple view of the world and how speakers work. Anechoic on-axis response and room response are both important, but for different reasons. You can't simply get a microphone and REW and fix all that ills a speaker.
@@robertt7238 Agreed. Only a ( theoretical ) speaker that is designed to couple with any room and have accurate response can proclude the need for room treatment/ correction to achieve high fidelity ( however it is defined).
I was hoping to see the crossover! 😞
ou yeah, this got me...
It would have been funny to find Bennic or Solan caps in a $12,500 pair of speakers.
They weren't making them back when this Duette was made, but today Wilson makes their own caps in house.
Are these a version of scan speak drivers. I know that in the past they used Vifa long time ago.
These are the Wilson Duette Series I made from about 2005-2013. The Wilson Duette Series II was made from about 2013-2020 (both versions are now retired).
Yes, Danny said they were Scanspeak drivers.
nice nice, but how do they actually sound after these changes?
how would he know? He doesn't listen to speakers.
Bravo. Bravo man for calling him out and others that believe his egocentric BS
It seems that the measurement was with the speakers a long way away from a wall to get the full (nearly) baffle step loss. Is tha a realistic scenario to compensate? Would anyone have speakers like that in a room large enough to get that far away from boundaries? And would they put them that far away, given the lack of baffle step compensation?
I listened to the speakers with proper setup, according to the manual. On-axis and 10 degree off axis were IN YOUR FACE. Pointed straight ahead was manageable. The quality / parts were worth making "right" to suit my taste.
@mcgovernjimmy I can believe it - just that I would have expected a fixed baffle step compensation to be less aggressive than 5 or 6db unless its something designed for free space placement. That the driver is forward is possibly a seperate issue. Also interesting that small changes in toe-in are having that impact, given that up to about 1kHz I'd have expected the off-axis response of the midbass to be fairly constant out to beyond 30 degrees - surely toe-in is normally tweaking trebble response from tweeter beaming?.
@@jamesmansion2572 To make the speakers more listenable, besides pushing them toward the wall and pointing them straight ahead, I also pushed them further apart - to increase the off axis angle. "Free Space Placement" makes the issue even worse and I think it's why they provide a high ohm set of resistors to turn the tweeter down more. By the way, I tried the "Free Space" resistors with the speaker setup near the wall... opposite what the manual says to do. I tried to turn down the "in your face" property with that. All that did was keep them "in my face" and dull the sound. I think if you look at the measurements from Danny, it's the 1-2k area that is the big problem. It's not just the tweeter in that range... the woofer needed to be turned down there as well.
So these cost one grand more than Wolf von langa SON, with 11 inch Field Coil woofer with passive radiator and high end mundorf AMT in open baffle. 70% of Wilson prices is marketing.
If someone has a pair of Silverline Prelude please send them in .TX
I have a pair of Silverline Minuet Supreme. I like the Silverline stuff. The one I'd really like to hear is the Silverline Prelude Plus. 👍
Did the changes make the speaker a beast to drive being 4 ohm and sensitivity now in the 80's?
The changes had little to no impact on driving them.
We'll find out. Should be no worse than the Magnepan 3.7i speakers I owned previously. 🤟
Down low, where these draw the most current from the amplifier, they are at the same SPL level and same impedance level.
@@dannyrichie9743 thanks good to know 👍
For a speaker that so expensive, id have expected better linearity. Speakers at this level really should not benefit from modification.
The lack of baffle step compensation is simply Wilson's way of making a strong unspoken sales pitch for a subwoofer. They don't want to make it sound too close to their $100k speakers. If they did that, they would never sell the expensive stuff.
Yes. This speaker with dual subs makes their floorstanding speakers a much more difficult sale... if people are actually buying based on performance, and not Look / Bling.
Actually the step loss is much higher in frequency than you'd ever want your subwoofer to play.
Is it possible that lack of baffle step is to compensate for possible near wall or bookshelf mounting?
@@iamraymon Not in this case. Bookshelf mounting will only add gain below 200Hz. That doesn't fix this level of loss.
@@dannyrichie9743
Thank you.
Have you ever look at a Hyperion 968s? Any comments or links?
I bet the GR version of this is going to look and sound fantastic! Nice Danny.
Respect! I believe he's right in his modification changing theperformance towards neutrality. Maybe Wilson Audio does not aim for that.
For the Inductive loaded "Umbilical" cables to have any sonic effect differences, a Measurable Inductance difference should exist between the 2 cables & similar length of standard Normal Inductive speaker cable....There are many Affordable accurate digital LCR meters available....Possibly a missed Opportunity to measure the "Inductive" Umbilical cables was missed ??
If somebody offered me a wilson speaker i would swap it for a 'Bully' 😮
Now you’re talking.
I have not heard The Bully; however, I'm certain it is a superior value compared to this speaker - even at used Wilson pricing. I like this speaker and wanted to make it better. It is special and different than the Bully. I like owning nice and special things.
I've been building speakers for over 30 years and I went and demoed some Sasha. V's a few weeks ago. The Wilson Audio guy asked me how they sounded, and I told him a few issues on what was some problems. He instantly got pissed at me. It wasn't even about the speakers but the room that they were in.
If their speakers don't sound sublime to you YOU'RE the problem. The emperor is wearing a beautiful robe, trust me... that's not his taint you're seeing.
sound like you're trashing their $100,000 usd speakers. :) even on YT video, i'm confused how Wilson sound
@@Artcore103 fanboy
@@hom2fu did you not read what I said
@@derrickthomas4603 I think @artcore103 was being sarcastic and actually agrees with you.
There's a lot of high end gear that often does not measure all that great. Do people even bother to measure WA speakers costing 200-300+ k? As he said, it's more audio jewelry and a "house sound" at that point it appears.
It appears that this is the original Wilson Duette Series I made from about 2005-2013, so that should be taken into account if considering a new speaker model from any company. Plus, even though Wilson is a high-end speaker manufacturer, not many would have considered this as one of their mid-range or high-end models.
@@Mark-rw3kw Nonsense. When I was in touch with Wilson about this speaker, the person I spoke to spoke glowingly of them. In fact, he mentioned "one of our main guys" still uses them in his office. Your point in this thread seems to be to put strawmen into the conversation and make moot points about when the speaker was made. It's a high quality speaker that now has had the hands of a professional crossover designer on them. It's going to be a great speaker when it's all done.
Stop making excuses for Wilson Audio. It is what it is.
@@mcgovernjimmy I am not making excuses for anyone. I personally would not buy a Wilson speaker for a number of reasons, as I have explained several times. But it is worth noting that Series 1 speaker Danny tested dates back to 2006, was upgraded in 2013 (Series 2), and was replaced by the Tune Tot in 2020, so obviously they know there are improvements that can could be made to the original. Making the 2006 Series 1 Duette a representation of the entire Wilson brand is the ultimate strawman fallacy since everyone knows that the other models made them well known in audio circles. Nevertheless, even with the improvements made by Wilson (and Danny), I am sure they sound pretty good anyway, especially when used as "office" speakers (what a joke).
It's a 10k + speaker, it should sound great and measure great, period. As you say, making excuses for WA is silly. It is also a fact that it's common that uber high end gear does not measure well as that's not usually why people purchase it. Big $ stuff usually has a "house sound" you either like or you don't, and due to its costs, pretty looks, and bragging rights, people convince themselves it sounds great... @@mcgovernjimmy
@@willbrink Agreed... it should measure and sound great, "no ifs ands or buts"... Now, it will.
like your reference 'Audio jewellery ' .That's audio to jewellery becomes disproportion ,sadly lower down their value .
Thank for your great revise .
I own a pair of Wilson Audio Sabrina X. Everyone is entitled to their opinions about what good sound is. I also think who are we to judge how people want to spend their hard earned money? Isn’t this hobby about enjoying music and high level reproduction to get us (the listener) as close to the sound of the original recording as possible? I’ve always aspired to moving up and owning better quality audio equipment. For me that’s been part of the fun. As a long time audiophile who didn’t always have top quality gear, I appreciated all of it at every level. As there diminishing returns the higher up you go? Absolutely! But better is better. And these Wilson’s are the best sounding speakers I’ve ever owned. I’d be interested to hear if Danny thinks he could make them better?
I'd have to take a look at them.
Sounds like you’re now terrified that WA have done a similarly cr@p job on your speakers and conned you out of $$$$$
As the Sabrina x are 3-way there is a good chance that the crossover between the woofer and mid has helped compensate for baffle step loss. But who knows? Maybe WA’s house sound is to have a non-flat midrange?
I’ve never liked any WA speakers I’ve heard. Ugly and bright sounding.
If you want to hear the music as it was originally created then you should seek out a speaker that has flat on-axis response and optimised directivity for accurate off-axis response.
Check out anything that has a clean set of measurements using a Klippel nearfield scanner. This includes distortion measurements, something that Danny doesn’t publish in his videos, but definitely useful information about how a speaker sounds.
Matt, dude, seriously. He listened to the speakers and he liked them. He knew what they cost and he thought they were worth it. He still likes them. They didn't con him and he's not worried in the least that he didn't get his money's worth. And, really, on what planet would he be "terrified" of any of this? Do you actually live in fear that products you like and pay a lot of money for may one day be deemed inferior according to one man's opinion of it? Your opinion of Wilson is your opinion and completely irrelevant to anyone but you. Guys like you and Danny have this idea in your head about how a speaker should measure and if it doesn't well then it can't sound great. But, again, that's an opinion, not a fact. Danny knows how to make a pretty response graph and for people who think like him and have his taste I'm sure they will like his designs. I'm in the camp of if I like it then I like it. If I think it's worth it then I think it's worth it. Heck, for all I know the speakers I like may measure the way Danny likes them to measure. But if they don't then I don't care because I'm never going to measure them. Nor am I going to worry about whether some measurement wizard or one of his minions thinks I'm wrong. When he's paying for the speakers he gets a say. Until then he's just a dude selling his opinion.
@@mattholland315 Of all the measurements that can be made on a speaker, the distortion measurements tell you little to nothing about how a speaker will sound. It can highlight a problem if there is one, but differences of 1% or 2% are hardly audible and indistinguishable from the music. The same is true for distortion measurements of amplifiers. 1%, .1%, or .01% is not a measure of sound quality.
@@dannyrichie9743 completely agree with respect to low levels of THD, but the whole point of measuring THD is to spot problems as you say. Also, we can see how capable the bass driver(s) is in terms of controlling distortion. Yes THD is less of an issue subjectively as lower frequencies, but I do think we should be striving to reduce THD as much as possible because it certainly it is audible if high enough
You know Danny , I bet you make a few manufacturers of these speakers really nervous when they see their speakers on your workbench . You're good Danny and you don't spread bullshit , you just tell it like it is . There needs to be more like you . Keep up the great work .
Anticipating all the Wilson defenders comments below, LOL..
Now I know what happened to Superman.
with such freq resp messed up, how on earth they are better than super flat Neumann KH 150,active, with 245wpc amps built in? which go for $3k vs duette 2 for $20k ?
Don’t forget Philharmonic Audio. Their speakers are probably the most accurate, passive designs, anywhere. They are truth tellers. They achieve +/- 1.5 dB, without active DSP.
i know these. excellent BMR driver and RAAL. from the specs, i bet they are better than neumann@@ChicagoRob2
Arent these the speakers that Wilson said they wished they never made?
No, that was the Wilson Witt
>I think the extra 'different' cables supplied is a good thing, also thinking what amplification class is connected this includes something like McIntosh's 'output-auto-former' are all very diff styles of amplification could/should be part of final resounding performance could be noticed is where these cables are handy but here you need deep pockets like US-Jay who goes through boulder amps like underpants.. sometimes< #turnkey solution - scanspeak
i am still annoyed that that amount of money and you still get ported box.
i know that bass is the foundation and reviewers only listen to them alone, you still need a subwoofer to make a complete system, full range reproduction should be the baseline.
Nice one, improved the best 🙂
No guarantee he improved the sound just because of measurements! Wilson has tons more experience in speaker building than Danny ever had!
I would love to hear a subjective comparison of the original and Danny's modified speakers. It should be performed by someone who doesn't own Wilson speakers and doesn't care much about them one way or the other.
I would not be surprised if they found Danny's versions to be more accurate, but the originals somehow sounding extra pleasing nevertheless.
What's the cutoff between a subjective preference imbalance and an objectively poorly balanced speaker?
Typically Danny only gets one of the speakers sent to him for measurement and upgrade. So he "may" do a mono listening test, but not a stereo test that should be done for a true listing test. I am not criticizing that he only gets one of the speakers, because shipping costs to him and back to the owner are not cheap, and he is mainly doing measurement tests.
@@Mark-rw3kw Danny addressed this in his answer to Jay Lee 5 months ago. The video is titled: Jay's got some good points. Let me clarify a few things. I tried to share a link, but these often don't take on this platform for some reason.
@@kenhiett5266 You can post a link to other TH-cam video's, but not any other links.
@@kenhiett5266 I think that in many cases, a poorly designed room is what the designer anticipates. But to me, both accuracy and clarity are very important. You can change the room.
*Waits for the part where he can't get to the crossover because it's potted* Or did they do that in this model? Guess I'll find out in a bit!
3:11 got my answer and surprised they even do it with an external unit! wow
The main reason to pot in this case is to hide the parts used. If you take a torch to it you can melt the bitnum off. Then brush the pcb with carb cleaner or something. Used to depot RMA power supplies at a previous job.
@@BobFrostV parts and circuit, surely?.. but still a bit of overkill. better to spend all that money on better parts and just do the job right instead of hiding stuff under the carpet.
That curved baffle around the tweeter is the worst possible shape for getting a flat response. But it looks nice and thats clearly Wilsons priority over performance.
I'm gonna work on that. Let me know if you have any ideas on AudioCircle. 🏁🏁🏁
Jamo Concert 11 - Please Danny. I'm from South Africa and about to drop a LOT of money on original crossover but better components. Would rather pay YOU the money for a proper crossover :-)
Send one in and I'll take a look at it.
@@dannyrichie9743 - its the floorstanding version of the 'iffy' Jamo Concert 8 you reviewed a while back.
Why would Wilson not add BSC to crossover? I have never heard of Wilson speakers being shouty. Maybe this is a Chinese clone 😉
LOL - I purchased them from the original owner and know the name of the original dealer.
I'm pretty sure that Danny has panned Wilson Audio for having crap parts before in one of the old videos.
Have you ever thought of offering your services to speaker manufacturers like Wilson to help them with their designs? Maybe as a consultant to analyze their final design ideas.
You would probably in very high demand!
And Amir also found what he called "engineering errors" in Wilson Tune Tots. You guys could be a huge asset to us consumers!
The speaker reviewed here is the Wilson Duette Series I made from about 2005-2013. The Wilson Duette Series II was made from about 2013-2020 (both versions are now retired). So they obviously made some changes in 2013 with the Series II, and they don't make either model anymore.
Can’t really imagine any prestige brand availing themselves of such design/engineering services, or if they did, almost certainly NDAs would be involved.
@@fonkenful Danny has done design work for some companies that he has mentioned in his videos. There "may" be other companies he has not mentioned because of a NDA.
@@Mark-rw3kw I should possibly have added air quotes around the word prestige - a term that in my own experience in the hobby can be interchanged with hubris.
@@fonkenful For them to get this level of expertise, I'm certain they would be thrilled to sign NDAs. Just imagine the positive impact on Wilson's sound quality and therefore sales volume if they had Danny on board to both oversee their designs and also educate them. Probably the same with Magico, etc.
The different cables may still be affecting lower frequencies? The measurements stop at 200Hz and those cables are supposed to affect boundary gain which would be in the lower frequencies.
To affect the lower ranges would require a change in resistance. I am not seeing that.
I would have to listen to both cables for myself. My curiosity would force me to do it. Drawn copper wire has a directional grain and I have personally eliminated room boom by flipping the direction of the ground side of the speaker pair.
Directionality is marked on the cables, and I used them as such.