6:25 "I've never really used a keyboard, so I don't know exactly how it works" Fantastic quote out of context, haha :) Great video and congrats to Kuto!
RE: 8-F Spikes Bismuth had mentioned in his analysis that if performed optimally, building momentum and sliding underneath is the best strat. It is true that the timing left on the P-switch makes a difference. I think that in Kuto's case, getting that jump over the rotodisc allowed ample time to charge up and make it just in time for the conveyor to start moving as he hits the ground. IMO, I still think that, on average, most incremental frames are gained/lost based on how we navigate past the remaining rotodiscs in the first room after pulling off the 2-frame jump, especially considering how awkward the angles to jump from can be in their respective positions. Huge congrats to him once again. Glad I got to tune in for a lot of that grind and his dedication is nothing short of inspiring.
One would think that the farther you slide, the quicker you will come out on the other side. The P-switch time is fixed and doesn't change to the best of my knowledge, so simply shortening the time you are idle on the conveyer after the P-switch would save time. Basically, if you slide, you don't have to ride the whole conveyer, just most of it.
5:40 Bismuth talks about this in his video on your 10:44 record, and shows a comparison. Saving time or not depends on exactly how much time is left on the P switch, and it's only a few frames difference either way. It does look cooler though :)
2:00 the reason why Kuto doesn't go for the tail swipe is because it's too risky with the four different patterns the boomerang bro can give: immediate backwards, delayed backwards, immediate forwards, and delayed forwards. If it moves backwards, you have to repress B late, and if it moves forwards, you have to repress B early. Because of the leaf grab from earlier, you can't reilably control the boomerang bro's pattern, so Kuto does the safe strat and jumps over it.
An accidental up press ruined a MK2 WR run for me. It was still WR, but I missed a special attack that costed me 2 seconds. I was lucky to still get WR, but I could have killed the cat. And the controller I was using was a PS3 one, so I can imagine how worse it can be with a smaller controller.
The sole reason I learned to play kaizo SMW on keyboard was accidental directional inputs. That is definitely the benefit to keyboard/hitbox over controller.
Congrats Kuto, well deserved, what a grind it’s been. Kuto now has two first place positions on the leaderboards! Let’s go for Australia!!! “And by the way, some ra-- “new guy”, is right on his tail!” Never to be known as "some ra----- new guy" again :D
5:53 I haven't exactly done speedruns on a keyboard, but, I have used one for many, many games, and, unless your finger slips, you have to physically press the up button to look up Misinputs are still possible, just a lot harder when all the directions are their own buttons Edit: said controller instead of keyboard 😅, fixed
The thing I love about speedrunning is how healthy the competition is. I'm sure there's some assholes out there, but when someone gives out a bounty for having their record broken, that shows that it really is more about the game and the sport than the titles.
6:05 I think I can inform you that that is not possible. As an emulator runner, I've only pressed Up when necessary; or maybe most of the keyboard runners.
Not a speedrunner but from my experience you get an unprecedented level of freedom from input mistakes using a keyboard. However, specifically doing two directional inputs at once (diagonal) is very finnicky. For example doing something like a hadouken input is much, much harder than on a gamepad. Not even harder its more that doing it on a gamepad feels natural and intuitive but doing it on a keyboard you have to be very deliberate with your inputs. The second issue you run into is with modern games and movement since on controllers and specifically analogue sticks the keyboard can't hit the fractional range of movement to do something like slow walk. Hell I say modern games but even playing something like mario 64 will show a perfect example of the flaws on keyboards.
@@doublejesusful i meant that you said pressing d+r on controller happens easily and i meant that pressing l+r on keyboard happens easily, which if its banned will result in an input of nothing
FINALLY somebody like mitch points out those accidental up presses with the D-pad,i had it sooo many times that if i want to press up like whem climing a rope accidentally do press right at certain moments,or sometimes when i want to walk down the stairs wich are close to the edge,i sometimes press left or right instead thus falling into a pitch instead, Especially the D-pad from the nes dogbone controller feels very stiff,however some after market thirt party snes controllers do veel very soft sothat if you whether press up or down etc,,, it will unsupposedly press more buttons, But using those arrow keys on a pc keyboard should not be a problem aslong those arrow keys are normal sizes with space between those arrow keys and other buttons,many laptops do have a keyboard were you cannot blindly feel were those arrow keys are,thus making it a pain in the ass to play emulated nes games or general pc games on it,ouch.
You’re welcome to think that, but the moderators of the Mario 3-community have decided that playing on non original hardware with non original controllers is fine as long as it doesn’t give you an unfair advantage. Emulator with keyboard is not considered unfair advantage, it’s just preference. Also, with original hardware and controllers becoming increasingly more expensive, it would discourage many players from trying if they can’t use their computer or Switch for world record attempts.
It obviously gives an unfair advantage. A very small one but everything matters in anything that is highly competitive. Why not just allow any controller then if original hardware is difficult to get?
@@lightfeather9953How is it obvious when the moderators of the Mario 3-speedrunning community (and mitch himself) have decided that it’s perfectly okay to play on an emulator with keyboard…
I DONT CARE EVEN IF IS THE GOAT SAYING IT; NES USES A CONTROLER AND THATS IT. THE REST SHOULD BE OTHER CATEGORY. whats next? neuralink perfect inpits at will? man the game is classic respect it using the original intended way of playing it@@mncdssctn9110
The part where you finish bowser with fireballs seems like it could be made faster if you use the "rolling" technique from NES Tetris. You can get very fast button presses by using multiple fingers pressing the back of the controller.
The D-pad on an original NES controller is one piece and uses a ball-type joint as a mid axis pivot. You can actually accidentally press up or down just by putting enough uneven pressure while pressing the right or left buttons. Keyboards have their own separate buttons for up. Down, left and right. Though it happens it's still harder to accidentally press up or down while running forward.
@@Falkite yeah, no shit... he asked why some of the best speed runners use a keyboard instead of the controller so I gave him the answer. Not all of us are perfect button pushers like yourself.
That's BS. I've done it before, many times. And it's not about hitting them both simultaneously. It's about putting too much pressure one way or the other. It can be an issue especially to those with larger fingers. Have you ever played with an NES controller?
You'd think there would need to be a separate category for keyboard vs. controller. Not to diminish the accomplishment but in general there are certain things/inputs that would be possible using a keyboard that would be more difficult on controller, and vise versa, I would assume.
It’s up to each community to decide, but for smb3 they’ve decided that unless you do something on a keyboard that you physically can’t do on an original controller, it’s allowed.
I have a hard time accepting keyboard times for retro consoles. The record is what it is but I'm more impressed when it's on the original controller. idc if it's a boomer take.
I also do not consider keyboard records to be official, but they seem to be accepted for whatever reason. Then again i find the "click track" method to be cheating, so it is all debatable. Really great runs regardless, congrats to everyone keeping speedrunning alive.
Yeah, for me, as someone who grew up with games like this, the most satisfying elements of watching a speedrun are (a) the runner’s facial reaction during the run and (b) the input on original hardware.
@@JakeRazorClawson Yeah I don't get it. It should at least be a separate category. Like, the original hardware category and then a category for keyboards and emulators. Seeing someone get an NES record on a modern pro-gaming keyboard just feels dirty to me
All great competitor never want to hold a record. They want they prowess to be surpass and respect the hard work that the next generation have put it to surpasse them
@@Accrovideogamesit's pretty hard to master as well, unless you've never played it with a controller before I expect it's really unnatural to play SMB on a keyboard
Keyboard use is janky because the arrow keys are on the wrong side and the ergonomics of keeping your hands over a relatively flat surface the whole run is cray.
Look at the video showing the keyboard. Runner has movement controls on left side (using what looks like A and D to turn left and right) and actions on the right (left arrow = run/shoot, right arrow = jump). It doesn't really matter if the physical keys are "on the wrong side" if you remap them anyway.
So, I guess you know more about the game and what’s more precise and fast than the moderators of the Mario 3-speedrunning community who knows the game inside and out and have studied the game down to the last line of code… If they have decided that keyboard doesn’t offer an unfair advantage, I’m not gonna argue with that. If there was such an unfair advantage to using keyboard, why aren’t more people doing it? Kuto is the only person out of the top 10 runners who uses a keyboard. The other 9 plays on controller. And it’s not because they feel like the game should be played on controller, it’s just because they prefer it and knows that keyboard doesn’t give you an advantage.
Very late to this discussion, but I imagine keyboard does remove the chance of accidental up/down inputs, provided your fingers aren't moving all over the place and the keys aren't too sensitive. In the FGC, keyboard or similar control schemes also offer SODC (Simultaneous Opposite Cardinal Directions) which allow for left+right or up+down to be input simultaneously, which can lead to some unintended properties in older games that don't expect the simultaneous inputs - I assume that property also holds in something like SMB3
Loved hearing his thoughts on keyboard vs controller, as brief as they were. As he wonders, I think it's far less likely for a keyboard player to hit the wrong input in error. I also think it's "easier", or faster, for keyboard players to switch between L & R inputs on the D pad. Not to diminish anyone's achievements (Niftski, etc) but I do tend to give extra credit to those runners who use the original hardware.
you do realise there is L+R cancelling on emulator so the "Faster L And R Inputs" are much harder to do then on controller where you can just do fast thumb movement to get them and not worry about L+R cancelling by being too fast
@@Kurtangle2so you're admitting that there are pros and cons. It's like saying steroids have side effects so pro athletes should be allowed to use them.
As long as you don’t do anything on a keyboard that you can’t physically do on a controller, the community (the runners and the admins who knows every nook and cranny of the game) have decided that keyboard is perfectly okay. It’s very rare that speedrun communities bans certain controllers or emulator just for the sake of it not being original. As long as it doesn’t offer an unfair advantage, it’s allowed.
The experts decided and proven long ago that keyboards do not have any advantage over standard NES controllers. You are not an expert. You have never studied the ins and outs of this game. You don't even run this game. Opinion invalidated. Facts don't care about your feelings.
I imagine the keyboard users are using mechanical switches for their keys (most gamers have mechanical keyboards) so they're very tactile it would be kind of difficult to accidentally press one not to say that it doesn't happen but it would be a lot less frequent than accidentally pressing up on the Nintendo d-pad. I'm watching this on my phone but it definitely looks like it's a gaming keyboard with all the RGB on it; I think it's a Logitech.
@@ZaCloud-Animations___she-her what are the odds of you hitting the up button and over the 2 frame window of you overlapping a door? It's like a 0.001% chance
@@Falkite A chance is still something. It was enough for this uploader, & other commenters, to have lost some great runs. Then of course there's other games where it matters even more, like tournament fighters.
I know the rules allow for it but I heavily dislike keyboard play. Emulator is fine, but keyboards can be made and customized to be so much more precise and easy to play on that it makes me wonder why not just make custom controllers that don't technically break rules but make the game easier?
To elaborate, keyboards allow you to choose activation distance on the keys, how much resistance there is, you have fingers dedicated to each one, and it is 100% a situation where spending more money gives you an advantage. Given that these old games were designed for controllers, it really feels like the competition can only be fair if using a controller is standardized.
there must be separate categories for original controler and keyboard, its obvious the advantage keyboard has. also.....original nes dosent uses keyboard
In my opinion, once someone is using a keyboard the game is ruined for me. As you mentioned with pressing up, there are differences in handling a keyboard, and while that may not seem like that much of a difference, it might be a huge advantage to a specific user who would otherwise never have obtained the record. It's like changing a race from driving a car with a regular gear shifter to one with paddles, or vice versa.
I kind of agree with this. I’m not sure if it’s a popular opinion cause I got dog piled for asking if keyboard vs controller was a separate category once lol
@@_flex5k But what feels unnatural to you may be an advantage to someone who has a natural feel for it. It's like how fast can an individual type with a QWERTY keyboard versus one with a different layout. Different layouts do improve overall speed, but will obviously cause a slowdown for someone not trained with the layout regardless of overall efficiency. Most of the people I see defending keyboards do so based on cost of obtaining original equipment, but to me if someone wants to speedrun at the WR level, then they should be willing to invest that cost.
Keyboard has its own disadvantages. I can't speak for smb3 but in smb1 fast accels and other tricks are much easier on controller. Not to mention that emulator input lag is very annoying. For me it's a matter of preference. Besides, there's a limited amount of original nes' and controllers.
Am I weird but I think a record should be on real hardware with a controller the system came with. I know there's nothing frame wise different about the game being emulated but it would have everyone on a level playing field if there was a record for correct hardware. Then if you want to have a emulation record you can but the main one should always be real hardware physical game.
If the emulation is perfect then I don't agree, no. Because original hardware is expensive and only getting more rare and thus more expensive. Locking speed running behind a big cost like that is silly and makes games less competitive because the field is smaller.
@@Blutzen I honestly see your point especially with the money side of it. Some of it's crazy, but if your speedrunning your not going through 100s of games. Your limiting yourself to 1-3 games to be best of the best. Thing is tho like mitch says keyboard takes away accidental inputs a controller will be always harder to master for that reason same as hitboxes over arcade sticks in fighting games tho capcom updated stored movements out of the game so no longer a problem there. Keyboard imputs will always be cleaner than a thumb moving across a tiny d-pad tho. I'm not saying it's a massive advantage just that it exists but your definitely right about the cost part tho. That's why I said about 2 records 1 for real hardware and another for emulator thanks for the reply.
The thing is....just look at the NES and his age. Over time more and more consoles will break or already are broken. 1985 was 37 years ago. The NES was discontinued 1995 ... 27 years ago. It's just a matter of time, to be honest.
Simply because the community have decided that it doesn’t offer an advantage. It’s very rare that any speedrunning community bans non-original hardware just for the sake of it not being original. When a certain controller or emulator is banned it’s because it’s considered to give an advantage.
@@mncdssctn9110 Huh… I mean I guess that makes sense. I would just think that the community would want consistency. The only time I’ve tried playing retro games with a keyboard was back in the 90s and it was…. not easy.
@@Falkite Keyboards use separated keys, so pressure on one key can't accidentally transfer to another. D-pads are connected by plastic so force CAN transfer through. Keyboards have an advantage in this respect.
@@while.coyote I hate this point. The chance of hitting D+R/U+R on controller is very small. Even if you do hit D+R/U+R it probably wouldn't even affect the run. This point is so overused just because mitch brought it up, I'd like to hear more arguments than just this one over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over.
@@Falkite The buttons are in the exact same spot/size? Dude... Do you pick up your keyboard & type on it with your thumbs? & use some giant Nintendo controller with the d-pad & buttons swapped or something? OMG! 😆😆😆
It doesn’t have an advantage though. It just comes down to personal preference. They’ve had the same discussion in the SMB1-community, and as it turns out, some tricks are easier on a controller than on a keyboard. It’s easier to pull off tricks where you wiggle your thumb from up to down or left to right and back on a D-pad than it is on a keyboard where each direction is a separate finger.
@@Falkite i didn't say that it was, i said that different input devices create different result there are differences between a keyboard and a controller if you haven't noticed
Congrats to the new WR holder, but I personally don't care when it's a keyboard user. I know it's just as difficult, but I just can't have the same excitement about it. Really cool of Mitch to send out a bounty like that! That's a cool dude.
I love how encouraging Mitch is toward other players in the SMB3 community. Good sportsmanship from the best in the game.
Lol he’s been on top so long he needs some competition 😊
Not only supportive but also putting out a bounty for beating his own record.. true legend
The anti-Billy Mitchell
Other streamers can be pretty dickish Mitch is always upbeat and yea he seems to really like seeing other people do well at SMB3
yea yea but i bet he knows nes is played with nes controler
"We need to get 10:39, that needs to be the next goal"
What're you waiting for Mitch, be the change you want to see
Underrated comment!! x,D
4:41 “Now that we have a good way of avoiding the sun” Apparently I’m speedrunning my normal existence
The only way we can break that category is in 5 billion years when the sun is no more.
This is how a healthy speedrun community should be: supportive, especially when one's own record is beaten! Warms the heart! :)
6:25 "I've never really used a keyboard, so I don't know exactly how it works"
Fantastic quote out of context, haha :)
Great video and congrats to Kuto!
yea nes uses a controler. next wr will be neuralink lol
RE: 8-F Spikes
Bismuth had mentioned in his analysis that if performed optimally, building momentum and sliding underneath is the best strat. It is true that the timing left on the P-switch makes a difference. I think that in Kuto's case, getting that jump over the rotodisc allowed ample time to charge up and make it just in time for the conveyor to start moving as he hits the ground.
IMO, I still think that, on average, most incremental frames are gained/lost based on how we navigate past the remaining rotodiscs in the first room after pulling off the 2-frame jump, especially considering how awkward the angles to jump from can be in their respective positions.
Huge congrats to him once again. Glad I got to tune in for a lot of that grind and his dedication is nothing short of inspiring.
One would think that the farther you slide, the quicker you will come out on the other side. The P-switch time is fixed and doesn't change to the best of my knowledge, so simply shortening the time you are idle on the conveyer after the P-switch would save time. Basically, if you slide, you don't have to ride the whole conveyer, just most of it.
Great sportsmanship giving praise and credit and not focusing on keyboard vs controller. I'm sure they both have pros and cons associated with each.
Instead, simply making a discussion of the comparison, not an argument. Very positive!
yeah, both cute but nes is nes
5:40 Bismuth talks about this in his video on your 10:44 record, and shows a comparison. Saving time or not depends on exactly how much time is left on the P switch, and it's only a few frames difference either way. It does look cooler though :)
Do you have a link to that video mate?
Super Mario Bros. 3 Speedrun World Record Explained
Search for that, TH-cam won't let me post the link.
@@ckellyedits here it is th-cam.com/video/4WoMl-fEPtc/w-d-xo.html at 20:23
2:00 the reason why Kuto doesn't go for the tail swipe is because it's too risky with the four different patterns the boomerang bro can give: immediate backwards, delayed backwards, immediate forwards, and delayed forwards. If it moves backwards, you have to repress B late, and if it moves forwards, you have to repress B early. Because of the leaf grab from earlier, you can't reilably control the boomerang bro's pattern, so Kuto does the safe strat and jumps over it.
well, just jump over it
@@lo0ksik Exactly
An accidental up press ruined a MK2 WR run for me. It was still WR, but I missed a special attack that costed me 2 seconds. I was lucky to still get WR, but I could have killed the cat. And the controller I was using was a PS3 one, so I can imagine how worse it can be with a smaller controller.
The sole reason I learned to play kaizo SMW on keyboard was accidental directional inputs. That is definitely the benefit to keyboard/hitbox over controller.
Love your energy towards the community. Never change bro ❤
Congrats Kuto, well deserved, what a grind it’s been.
Kuto now has two first place positions on the leaderboards!
Let’s go for Australia!!!
“And by the way, some ra-- “new guy”, is right on his tail!”
Never to be known as "some ra----- new guy" again :D
keith apple burger??
@@Falkite The one and only :D
Nah he's still some "new person" to basically 99% of humanity 😢
Wouldn’t it be faster to let the boomerang bro catch the boomerang so it doesn’t have to go off screen then kill him?
no
EXACTLY WHAT I'M SAYING...
@@lo0ksikOK tell me why tho I need evidence
"BuT hE uSeD a KeYbOaRd!"
Okay. Do it yourselves then. Feh.
A link to the video you're watching in the description would be nice.
5:53 I haven't exactly done speedruns on a keyboard, but, I have used one for many, many games, and, unless your finger slips, you have to physically press the up button to look up
Misinputs are still possible, just a lot harder when all the directions are their own buttons
Edit: said controller instead of keyboard 😅, fixed
7:26
Probably the best unexpected out of breath F-word I've ever heard
What if the 1k in his name was to get that 1000 and that was the only reason?
4:55 Kuto does a small jump here to make the duck-jump over the Rotodisc easier. I do that too. :)
That's awesome! I'm glad the Mario 3 community seems very supportive.
Breaking news: Mitch has NEVER used a keyboard in his life
I heard he uses an NES controller to send texts on his phone.
Does someone have a link demonstrating or explaining the zip on world 8 battleship?
The thing I love about speedrunning is how healthy the competition is. I'm sure there's some assholes out there, but when someone gives out a bounty for having their record broken, that shows that it really is more about the game and the sport than the titles.
I just found a pipe glitch similar to 3-9 and 7-5 pipe glitches at the end of 2-3. Is that a known thing. I can't find anything about it.
6:05 I think I can inform you that that is not possible. As an emulator runner, I've only pressed Up when necessary; or maybe most of the keyboard runners.
How appropriate for a player with "1K" in his username to win the one thousand dollar bounty.
I need to know what his reaction is to the bounty award.
im in vc with him rn and he said very epic
@@Falkite lmao
Not a speedrunner but from my experience you get an unprecedented level of freedom from input mistakes using a keyboard. However, specifically doing two directional inputs at once (diagonal) is very finnicky. For example doing something like a hadouken input is much, much harder than on a gamepad. Not even harder its more that doing it on a gamepad feels natural and intuitive but doing it on a keyboard you have to be very deliberate with your inputs. The second issue you run into is with modern games and movement since on controllers and specifically analogue sticks the keyboard can't hit the fractional range of movement to do something like slow walk. Hell I say modern games but even playing something like mario 64 will show a perfect example of the flaws on keyboards.
what about pressing l+r on keyboard, that will literally never happen on controller
@@Falkite That's banned when it's relevant of course. Also forgot to mention mashing is way easier on gamepad, at least for me.
@@doublejesusful i meant that you said pressing d+r on controller happens easily and i meant that pressing l+r on keyboard happens easily, which if its banned will result in an input of nothing
FINALLY somebody like mitch points out those accidental up presses with the D-pad,i had it sooo many times that if i want to press up like whem climing a rope accidentally do press right at certain moments,or sometimes when i want to walk down the stairs wich are close to the edge,i sometimes press left or right instead thus falling into a pitch instead,
Especially the D-pad from the nes dogbone controller feels very stiff,however some after market thirt party snes controllers do veel very soft sothat if you whether press up or down etc,,, it will unsupposedly press more buttons,
But using those arrow keys on a pc keyboard should not be a problem aslong those arrow keys are normal sizes with space between those arrow keys and other buttons,many laptops do have a keyboard were you cannot blindly feel were those arrow keys are,thus making it a pain in the ass to play emulated nes games or general pc games on it,ouch.
Another world record? Damn.
You’re an exceptional streamer and person all around. We love you man keep it up❤😅
Someone beat his record that’s what this video is about.
@@nugboy420 I know? I never said otherwise in my comment. The point of it was that he’s exceptional even when he’s just lost his wr title.
@@alexdauphinee479 oh idk. I guess ur right haha. He still prolly is the inspiration for this record tbh tho.
Lol ok so I apologize for he first reply. I read that as like wow how did you do it again? Not as another person got a world record
I love these runs but I do feel any world record attempt should only count using the original controller and console
You’re welcome to think that, but the moderators of the Mario 3-community have decided that playing on non original hardware with non original controllers is fine as long as it doesn’t give you an unfair advantage. Emulator with keyboard is not considered unfair advantage, it’s just preference. Also, with original hardware and controllers becoming increasingly more expensive, it would discourage many players from trying if they can’t use their computer or Switch for world record attempts.
It obviously gives an unfair advantage. A very small one but everything matters in anything that is highly competitive. Why not just allow any controller then if original hardware is difficult to get?
@@lightfeather9953How is it obvious when the moderators of the Mario 3-speedrunning community (and mitch himself) have decided that it’s perfectly okay to play on an emulator with keyboard…
I DONT CARE EVEN IF IS THE GOAT SAYING IT; NES USES A CONTROLER AND THATS IT. THE REST SHOULD BE OTHER CATEGORY. whats next? neuralink perfect inpits at will? man the game is classic respect it using the original intended way of playing it@@mncdssctn9110
get em mitch its your record. this is cuzzinbuzzin
You’re a class act Mitch! 🎉
Well, what a fitting name, Kuto1k just got themself 1k cash
Glad to see a game I played 30+ years is still being played and you're rewarding people for all the time and effort they put in to it.
You rock Mitch.
Thank you Mitch!
"I don't know if he knows about the $1000"
Dude's name has 1k in it
he always had 1k in his name
The part where you finish bowser with fireballs seems like it could be made faster if you use the "rolling" technique from NES Tetris. You can get very fast button presses by using multiple fingers pressing the back of the controller.
its not his wr and they know that tech for years
Very nice of you to reward the guy even though he didn't know about the bounty and might nnever look for you to collect it.
he knew about it
Yooooo Mitch!! Where you been on stream lately?? Hope all is well my man! 😎🤙
What emulator is used by this speedrunner?
The D-pad on an original NES controller is one piece and uses a ball-type joint as a mid axis pivot. You can actually accidentally press up or down just by putting enough uneven pressure while pressing the right or left buttons. Keyboards have their own separate buttons for up. Down, left and right. Though it happens it's still harder to accidentally press up or down while running forward.
just dont be bald at holding right on controller
@@Falkite yeah, no shit... he asked why some of the best speed runners use a keyboard instead of the controller so I gave him the answer. Not all of us are perfect button pushers like yourself.
@@GuyonaCouch the chance of hitting right and down/right and up at the same time is like 0.000000000000001%
That's BS. I've done it before, many times. And it's not about hitting them both simultaneously. It's about putting too much pressure one way or the other. It can be an issue especially to those with larger fingers. Have you ever played with an NES controller?
@@GuyonaCouch I have over 5000 attempts on smb1 with an nes controller, and I have either never or very rarely done that.
Is there a reason Emu and console aren't separate categories like with SM64?
no difference
Cause the allowed nes emulators are 100% accurate, so there’s no difference at all in terms of advantage or disadvantage.
You'd think there would need to be a separate category for keyboard vs. controller. Not to diminish the accomplishment but in general there are certain things/inputs that would be possible using a keyboard that would be more difficult on controller, and vise versa, I would assume.
It’s up to each community to decide, but for smb3 they’ve decided that unless you do something on a keyboard that you physically can’t do on an original controller, it’s allowed.
I have a hard time accepting keyboard times for retro consoles. The record is what it is but I'm more impressed when it's on the original controller. idc if it's a boomer take.
I also do not consider keyboard records to be official, but they seem to be accepted for whatever reason. Then again i find the "click track" method to be cheating, so it is all debatable. Really great runs regardless, congrats to everyone keeping speedrunning alive.
Yeah, for me, as someone who grew up with games like this, the most satisfying elements of watching a speedrun are (a) the runner’s facial reaction during the run and (b) the input on original hardware.
@@JakeRazorClawson Yeah I don't get it. It should at least be a separate category. Like, the original hardware category and then a category for keyboards and emulators. Seeing someone get an NES record on a modern pro-gaming keyboard just feels dirty to me
All great competitor never want to hold a record. They want they prowess to be surpass and respect the hard work that the next generation have put it to surpasse them
Mitch, keeping it classy on TH-cam since 2011.
good stuff Mitch, I love how stoked you are for the community. it's tough to lose a record but you are all class.
also aussie aussie aussie!!
Do a side by side to see if the move back benefits you.
Wait so is it known how to consistently get no hands now?
Did he know about the bounty or did Mitch surprise him?
this guy had 1k in his name ofc he knew
Glad mitch is not jealous on kuba for breaking his record😁
for me original controler is the original. keyboars or otrher controlers are diferent category for me.
I hope you get the record back though o.o
You're a class act, Mitch.
Keyboard WR is nuts
Mitch is an amazing human being. If it were me, I'd be complaining that it only counts on the original hardware with an NES controller.
Keyboard and emulation is legal in this game's speedrunning community because it doesn't provide an unfair advantage.
@@Accrovideogamesit's pretty hard to master as well, unless you've never played it with a controller before I expect it's really unnatural to play SMB on a keyboard
Good wholesome fun, I love it 🥰
Mitchell: "So, you have chosen death..." 🍄💀👀
Keyboard use is janky because the arrow keys are on the wrong side and the ergonomics of keeping your hands over a relatively flat surface the whole run is cray.
for_you.bmp
Look at the video showing the keyboard. Runner has movement controls on left side (using what looks like A and D to turn left and right) and actions on the right (left arrow = run/shoot, right arrow = jump). It doesn't really matter if the physical keys are "on the wrong side" if you remap them anyway.
@@pierrefley5000 right... I understand people remap but for me the ergonomics of a keyboard are l wrong no matter how the keys are mapped.
Another iconic record goes to the keyboard players. I wonder if that will be the trend
neuralink next, just think inputs lol. gross. original controler is the real thing and everyone knows it
Mitch be like “ok, time to murder this category, too.”
Release the Kraken
So much Hype
Thanks
i feel like keyboard is almost TAS
how
What????????????????????????????????? that is impossible, impressive
Very cool!
I surprised keyboards are able to compete on the same level as legit nes controller, it's clearly a bit more precise and fast.
So, I guess you know more about the game and what’s more precise and fast than the moderators of the Mario 3-speedrunning community who knows the game inside and out and have studied the game down to the last line of code… If they have decided that keyboard doesn’t offer an unfair advantage, I’m not gonna argue with that. If there was such an unfair advantage to using keyboard, why aren’t more people doing it? Kuto is the only person out of the top 10 runners who uses a keyboard. The other 9 plays on controller. And it’s not because they feel like the game should be played on controller, it’s just because they prefer it and knows that keyboard doesn’t give you an advantage.
nes uses controler. thats it. create other category for keyboard or neuralink, or dance pads..@@mncdssctn9110
Australia represent!
"we need to get 10:39"
*checks the TAS i made last week"
10:39
:|
if he's not playing the game on an original nes, using an original cart, using an original controller, he didn't beat your record
Very late to this discussion, but I imagine keyboard does remove the chance of accidental up/down inputs, provided your fingers aren't moving all over the place and the keys aren't too sensitive. In the FGC, keyboard or similar control schemes also offer SODC (Simultaneous Opposite Cardinal Directions) which allow for left+right or up+down to be input simultaneously, which can lead to some unintended properties in older games that don't expect the simultaneous inputs - I assume that property also holds in something like SMB3
L+R at the same frame is not allowed, and it’s required to disable it in the emulator.
Damn si much work but why release all your secrets
U said you didn't know if he knew about the bounty but at the end of his name is "1k" i think he knew lol
2:55 stop saying hammer and say boomerang!
Loved hearing his thoughts on keyboard vs controller, as brief as they were.
As he wonders, I think it's far less likely for a keyboard player to hit the wrong input in error. I also think it's "easier", or faster, for keyboard players to switch between L & R inputs on the D pad.
Not to diminish anyone's achievements (Niftski, etc) but I do tend to give extra credit to those runners who use the original hardware.
you do realise there is L+R cancelling on emulator so the "Faster L And R Inputs" are much harder to do then on controller where you can just do fast thumb movement to get them and not worry about L+R cancelling by being too fast
@@Kurtangle2so you're admitting that there are pros and cons. It's like saying steroids have side effects so pro athletes should be allowed to use them.
@@lightfeather9953 I'm just disproving the "advantages" that people always talk about when it comes to keyboard vs controller
Very positive :) gg all
Is it common for players to use a...keyboard? and do you think its any different, like should it be a separate category?
As long as you don’t do anything on a keyboard that you can’t physically do on a controller, the community (the runners and the admins who knows every nook and cranny of the game) have decided that keyboard is perfectly okay. It’s very rare that speedrun communities bans certain controllers or emulator just for the sake of it not being original. As long as it doesn’t offer an unfair advantage, it’s allowed.
If you're not doing it with the N.E.S. controller it should not count. if you playing with keyboard it should be a different category.
Are there other people that don't like keyboard playing?
Keyboard record on SMB3? This is not legit in my eyes
how
The experts decided and proven long ago that keyboards do not have any advantage over standard NES controllers.
You are not an expert. You have never studied the ins and outs of this game. You don't even run this game. Opinion invalidated. Facts don't care about your feelings.
The fact they used a keyboard kind of hurts my soul -_-
Ratio
engagement
Have him Mitch! #newwr
I imagine the keyboard users are using mechanical switches for their keys (most gamers have mechanical keyboards) so they're very tactile it would be kind of difficult to accidentally press one not to say that it doesn't happen but it would be a lot less frequent than accidentally pressing up on the Nintendo d-pad. I'm watching this on my phone but it definitely looks like it's a gaming keyboard with all the RGB on it; I think it's a Logitech.
pressing up literally does nothing in the game
@@Falkite Pressing up literally makes you accidentally go into unintended doors & pipes in the game. 😜
@@ZaCloud-Animations___she-her what are the odds of you hitting the up button and over the 2 frame window of you overlapping a door? It's like a 0.001% chance
@@Falkite A chance is still something. It was enough for this uploader, & other commenters, to have lost some great runs.
Then of course there's other games where it matters even more, like tournament fighters.
@@ZaCloud-Animations___she-her if you hit u+r then its a skill issue
People ITT hating on keyboard use is super cringy.
Be happy for this badass of a human being.
And major kudos to Mitch for being such a bro about it.
There is nothing “cringy” about it at all. It’s a totally legitimate concern.
Because for the first decade or so that this game existed it was absolutely impossible to play it using a keyboard.
@@Wookis Just curious but how could you play SMB3 in 1993-5 (5 years after release) with a keyboard?
@@stuartcole4845 by using the Famicom keyboard
@@airbornemuffins9385 Nah, that’s not a thing that you can do.
how about linking the world record? i dont want to watch your video, i want to watch the actual world record
I know the rules allow for it but I heavily dislike keyboard play. Emulator is fine, but keyboards can be made and customized to be so much more precise and easy to play on that it makes me wonder why not just make custom controllers that don't technically break rules but make the game easier?
To elaborate, keyboards allow you to choose activation distance on the keys, how much resistance there is, you have fingers dedicated to each one, and it is 100% a situation where spending more money gives you an advantage. Given that these old games were designed for controllers, it really feels like the competition can only be fair if using a controller is standardized.
While I completely agree with you…do you think evolution is a part of the game or should there be a separate category?
How about beating the record on original hardware, with no warps or power ups?
It’s neither more difficult nor easier to play on original hardware so the argument that it should be done on original hardware is just retarded.
lmao that’s not a category, powerups aren’t cheating
there must be separate categories for original controler and keyboard, its obvious the advantage keyboard has. also.....original nes dosent uses keyboard
In my opinion, once someone is using a keyboard the game is ruined for me. As you mentioned with pressing up, there are differences in handling a keyboard, and while that may not seem like that much of a difference, it might be a huge advantage to a specific user who would otherwise never have obtained the record. It's like changing a race from driving a car with a regular gear shifter to one with paddles, or vice versa.
Agreed, same with the original SMB.
I kind of agree with this. I’m not sure if it’s a popular opinion cause I got dog piled for asking if keyboard vs controller was a separate category once lol
Playing on keyboard is purely preference and doesn't offer any particular advantage. Try it, it feels very unnatural for me. Emulator however..
@@_flex5k But what feels unnatural to you may be an advantage to someone who has a natural feel for it. It's like how fast can an individual type with a QWERTY keyboard versus one with a different layout. Different layouts do improve overall speed, but will obviously cause a slowdown for someone not trained with the layout regardless of overall efficiency. Most of the people I see defending keyboards do so based on cost of obtaining original equipment, but to me if someone wants to speedrun at the WR level, then they should be willing to invest that cost.
Keyboard has its own disadvantages. I can't speak for smb3 but in smb1 fast accels and other tricks are much easier on controller. Not to mention that emulator input lag is very annoying. For me it's a matter of preference. Besides, there's a limited amount of original nes' and controllers.
Am I weird but I think a record should be on real hardware with a controller the system came with. I know there's nothing frame wise different about the game being emulated but it would have everyone on a level playing field if there was a record for correct hardware. Then if you want to have a emulation record you can but the main one should always be real hardware physical game.
If the emulation is perfect then I don't agree, no. Because original hardware is expensive and only getting more rare and thus more expensive. Locking speed running behind a big cost like that is silly and makes games less competitive because the field is smaller.
@@Blutzen I honestly see your point especially with the money side of it. Some of it's crazy, but if your speedrunning your not going through 100s of games. Your limiting yourself to 1-3 games to be best of the best. Thing is tho like mitch says keyboard takes away accidental inputs a controller will be always harder to master for that reason same as hitboxes over arcade sticks in fighting games tho capcom updated stored movements out of the game so no longer a problem there. Keyboard imputs will always be cleaner than a thumb moving across a tiny d-pad tho. I'm not saying it's a massive advantage just that it exists but your definitely right about the cost part tho. That's why I said about 2 records 1 for real hardware and another for emulator thanks for the reply.
The thing is....just look at the NES and his age. Over time more and more consoles will break or already are broken. 1985 was 37 years ago. The NES was discontinued 1995 ... 27 years ago. It's just a matter of time, to be honest.
Does anyone know why the community has “allowed” keyboard users to, you know, play on a non-official controller?
Simply because the community have decided that it doesn’t offer an advantage. It’s very rare that any speedrunning community bans non-original hardware just for the sake of it not being original. When a certain controller or emulator is banned it’s because it’s considered to give an advantage.
@@mncdssctn9110 Huh… I mean I guess that makes sense. I would just think that the community would want consistency. The only time I’ve tried playing retro games with a keyboard was back in the 90s and it was…. not easy.
keyboard players definitely have an advantage with not pressing the wrong buttons.
how? the buttons are in the exact same spot and about the exact same size
@@Falkite Keyboards use separated keys, so pressure on one key can't accidentally transfer to another. D-pads are connected by plastic so force CAN transfer through. Keyboards have an advantage in this respect.
@@while.coyote I hate this point. The chance of hitting D+R/U+R on controller is very small. Even if you do hit D+R/U+R it probably wouldn't even affect the run. This point is so overused just because mitch brought it up, I'd like to hear more arguments than just this one over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over.
@@Falkite The buttons are in the exact same spot/size? Dude... Do you pick up your keyboard & type on it with your thumbs? & use some giant Nintendo controller with the d-pad & buttons swapped or something? OMG! 😆😆😆
@@ZaCloud-Animations___she-her I don't use thumbs on nes controller lmao, also the button sizes are similar depending on your keyboard binds
Can he fire fireballs faster with keyboard? Seems like cheating not using the controller...
no, you can fire the same speed
IMHO, keyboard should have its own categories. It is NOTHING like playing on an OEM NES controller. Keyboard has way too much of an advantage.
It doesn’t have an advantage though. It just comes down to personal preference. They’ve had the same discussion in the SMB1-community, and as it turns out, some tricks are easier on a controller than on a keyboard. It’s easier to pull off tricks where you wiggle your thumb from up to down or left to right and back on a D-pad than it is on a keyboard where each direction is a separate finger.
how is it nothing like it
keyboard and an emulator??? in my opinion that shouldn't be allowed...but maybe getting the original hardware is hard at this point don't know
why
@@Falkite because it fundamentally is a different way of playing
it's like can i get a world record in button mashing using a turbo controller
How is an automated process in anyway similar to what he did in his run?
@@Falkite i didn't say that it was, i said that different input devices create different result
there are differences between a keyboard and a controller if you haven't noticed
@@kraken5003 the only difference is feel
Nothing against a great player but I just don't like playing on a keyboard. It's not the same.
Congrats to the new WR holder, but I personally don't care when it's a keyboard user. I know it's just as difficult, but I just can't have the same excitement about it. Really cool of Mitch to send out a bounty like that! That's a cool dude.