🇳🇱 Passing a red signal at speed: this is bad... Utrecht - Schiphol - Dordrecht VIRM 29/6/2024
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 12 ก.ย. 2024
- Repost: For reasons I mention after 1:13:21 this video was offline for a while. You can now watch it again in an edited form. The situation in this video is a one that you can discuss extensively. I avoid sensitive discussions on a social media platform like TH-cam. If you are a colleague and you want to discuss this subject, please do not do so in the comments but speak to me on the work floor, or contact me by email. Do you also find regulations so interesting? Then consider participating in the regulations management group, just like I did at the beginning of my career.
Driving past a red signal is about the worst thing you can experience as a train driver. Fortunately, it is very rare. There can be several causes. Sometimes it happens that a safe signal suddenly changes back to red. The latter happened to me today. A very special experience, and the second time in my career. It takes a few seconds before you realize what happened, whether you saw it correctly, or whether you perhaps missed a signal, so it's quite a shock. As a result, there will be considerable delays, because we will only continue driving when everyone is sure that it can be done safely. Enjoy watching!
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Herpublicatie: om redenen die ik noem na 1:13:21 was deze video even offline. In aangepaste vorm kun je deze nu weer bekijken. Het afvallende sein in deze video is een situatie waar je, zo is gebleken, uitvoerig met elkaar over kunt discussiëren. Ik vermijd gevoelige discussies op een social media platform als TH-cam. Ben je collega, en wil je hierover toch wat kwijt, doe dat dan niet in de comments of via een wachtdienst, maar spreek me aan op de werkvloer, of neem via mail contact met me op. Vind jij regelgeving ook zo interessant? Overweeg dan net als ik in het begin van mijn carrière, deel te nemen aan de beheergroep regelgeving.
Een rood sein voorbijrijden is zo'n beetje het ergste wat je als machinist kunt meemaken. Het is gelukkig zeer zeldzaam. Er kunnen verschillende oorzaken zijn. Soms komt het voor dat een veilig sein plotseling terugvalt naar rood. Vandaag overkomt mij dat. Een erg bijzondere ervaring, en de tweede keer in mijn carrière. Het duurt een paar seconden voor je je realiseert wat er gebeurde, of je het wel goed zag, of je misschien toch een sein over het hoofd hebt gezien, best wel even schrikken dus. Als gevolg ontstaat er een ruime vertraging, want we rijden pas door als iedereen zeker weet dat dat veilig kan. Veel kijkplezier!
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#cabview #cabinerit #cabride #ns #trains #machinist #traindriver #führerstandsmitfahrt #slowtv treinserie 3700 amsterdam bijlmer arena zuid schiphol leiden den haag laan van noi hs delft schiedam centrum rotterdam sts passage stspassge stst-passage spad signal passed at danger train collision crash
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Dear fans, thank you for your positive comments to this critical Signal Passed At Danger video. I have decided not to post any reactions from my side to be on the safe side, but that does not mean that I do not appreciate them. I will answer your private messages sent via cabviewholland@gmail.com after my vacation, because I want to take the time to answer those correctly. I find the foreign regulations regarding this specific issue particularly interesting. If you can report anything about that as a colleague, please do so privately. Particularly interesting for me to find out is if your regulation specifically tells you how to act in a situation where the signal suddenly shows red on approach - a technical SPAR.
Thanks again!
Greetings, Vincent
The UK Rulebook states that if you see any signal irregularity in front of you (green to yellow or red, yellow to red) you must stop the train immediately and contact the signaller, whether you pass the signal or not. There are many reasons why this might happen, from technical failure with points, signals or track circuit, bridge strike, crossing failure, trepassers on the line, another train passing a danger signal, a signaller making a mistake - you just don't know and you can't guess. The only acceptable response is to stop immediately, tell the signaller what you saw and follow their instructions.
Ik vind het jammer dat je het stukje van de noodrem hebt verwijdert. Zeker omdat je gehandeld hebt volgens je training en de regels.
I have no idea of the way its works in the NL, but in France, emergency braking would be the only option, and when the train stops, there is a urgent need to call the line supervision to decide what to do. If this is due to a technicial problem on the only signal, the procedure will most likely call for a prudent run (called "marche à vue" i.e. on sight) to the next signal. This is closely related to what you did.
ATB-EG only activates when you aren't braking. And I don't think this signal is fitted with ATB-vv (Like TPWS which activates your brakes when approaching a signal at danger too fast so that's why there is no emergency braking
In Germany there wouldn't even be a discussion. Any signal falling back to red issues a forced stop (Zwnagsbremsung) to the train, which the engineer must support by applying emergency brake.
@@apotato5563 I was only mentionning that on french trains, a manual action of the driver must be to push the "emergency stop button" also known as "BP-Urg", standing for "Boutton Poussoir URGence" (a big red "mushroom" on the dashboard !). Pushing it totaly empties the continuous brake line, and opens all traction relays on Diesel or electrical trains. On electrical trains, there is an additionnal emergency button to lower the panto(s).
Regarding automatic braking devices triggered by passing the red signal, still on French lines, it depends on the type of signalization in use on the said-line. Also considering the short time that separated the arrival of the train at the signal, and the moment the signal turned red, I wonder whether the automatic device may have had a sufficient time to be set on.
mais je pense qu'en France il n'y aurait jamais eu cette situation a moins que le conducteur aurait été prévenu à l'avance
@@rayan_stas Si, si c'est possible car certaines situations d'urgence entrainent "la mise au rouge" de tous les signaux sur une ligne donnée. Par exemple sur une alerte radio...
I think you acted perfectly. The signal was green and suddenly turned red because of a technical error. The moment you saw the signal changing, you applied the emergency break. Like you said, this can't happen with normal operation. First you get a yellow signal so you know that the next signal is gonna be a red one. But this one clearly shows green and turns red. So you did everything perfectly.
I agree. Having the video is proof for the situation. Nothing was out of the ordinary from what we can see prior to the signal suddenly turning red. There's no way to stop instantly and a SPAD is inevitable.
In the UK, this would be a Technical SPAR (not SPAD), as the signal went on (that is how we say that a signal went to Danger) in the driver's face, without sufficient time for the train to stop at the signal.
It is fortunate for you you had video footage - lessons can be learned, and can be the difference of whether there are biscuits and coffee at your subsequent meeting with management.
I didn't see the original so I do not know what happened, and I am not a train pilot, so my unqualified view is that if a signal changes to danger in front of you, you stop and you stop quickly. You do not know whether it is a fault in signalling, or whether track points ahead have suddenly changed, or whether another train has incorrectly come onto your block. You don't even know if you have time to do anything else. And then you speak to the controllers in charge when you have got the situation under control. If anybody was saying otherwise, they are not train pilots.
In aviation, your priorities in order are 'aviate, navigate, communicate'. If you get an alert, you do the thing you need to do to keep everything safe. You don't worry about further overloading your situation by doing low priority stuff which wont actually help your situation.
Not entirely sure how the NSR rulebook would differ from sister company NS International. But for international trains it is apply emergency brake, send alarm message. That rule ALSO applies to train managers (we at the back who have to deal with grumpy passengers) if the driver is incapacitated or fails to follow procedures (for whatever reason) . And yes, if safety justifies, I’m allowed to be in the driver’s cab, and in Belgium we are trained to know all signal aspects and monitor the train driver if he/she reacts accordingly to the signals. If in ANY doubt, press the big red button…. Or if you know a bit more about locomotive like the traxx you pick the right yoke and pull it fully. This will prevent the train from shutting down completely and not be able to send a message at all.
@@MaartenOtto they should not difer as both the companies use the same track with the same rules
I am a train driver in the US. When this happens, we say that the signal "dropped in your face." (Dropped to Stop.) Emergency braking at that speed can be deadly, because the train can derail. Signal drops happened to me twice. Both times I calmly applied the brakes, passed the Stop Signal and came to a safe stop. I then called the dispatcher on the radio and reported the event. He gave me permission to continue and nothing else came out of it. Apparently, our signal people were doing some signal work and dropped the signal on me. In reality, when the signal drops like that, chances are that it is not because of a conflicting move (that could cause a collision). It's too complicated to explain why, but most like it's a signal glitch.
Under ETCS and TPWS the two predominant systems in EU and UK you would not have a choice, your train would go into emergency by itself.
EB CAUSING DERAIL LOOOOL ONLY IN AMERIKA
@gka4976 Thanks. Interesting. Could you please contact me at the mail address in my pinned comment?
@@testplmnb Not true. Apparently, you've never seen freight trains that are well over 15,800 feet (4.8 km) and carrying 12,000 to 18,000 US Tons. (10,886 to 16,329 metric tonnes) of containers and goods. This isn't always on flat ground either with some areas with long grades through mountain passes to boot. Some freight trains can take more than 1 mile or 1.6 km to stop.
@@Clavichordist Only USA runs trains that big. Its all about the money. Skimping on crews to save a dollar. The rest of the world has more sensible train length limits and at least on modern trains electropneumatic brakes rather than Westinghouse air. Sadly some of our operators are trying to go the same way. Fortunately regulation holds them back.
The point is not whether the signal suddenly turns red or not. The point is, the signal shows red before the train passes it. The only response to this event is emergency braking.
Ik had de originele video gezien en snap niet waarom dit voor discussie zou zorgen. Ik vind dat prima en correct hebt gehandeld, de snelrem inzetten en de treindienstleider informeren omdat het een bediende sein kon de TRDL het sein uit gevaar ook herroepen. Deze situatie zag ik ook op youtube van een collega van u bij een andere tunnel en hij handelde het op dezelfde manier als u.
Idd dat dacht ik ook!
Er wordt een video geupload met een heftig onderwerp met bijhorende thumbnail en vervolgens is alles gewist en zelfs niet meer op terug gekomen.
Het zal ook allemaal niet zo schokkend zijn geweest maar toch blijft het jammer (en een klein beetje misleidend al geloof ik voor de volle 100% dat dit niet de intentie was).
Kijk de andere video dan nog maar eens goed, zitten wel degelijk verschillen in 😉😊
@@GJFWBNL ik vind het ook wel jammer ja dar niet het hele deel erop staat. Hier zou je als mcn er niks tegen aan kunnen doen, al zullen collega's er misschien anders over denken. Je zou je een hoedje schrikken als een sein opeens van groen naar rood gaat. :)
@@SLT2609 De collega's met commentaar ging het om het correct handelen volgens de regelgeving en met de nsr+ / vvrv verschillen in regelgeving kan je wel eens iets anders opvatten.
@@GJFWBNL Wat had hij anders kunnen doen of moeten doen volgens anderen ? Soort noodstop ?
American here, who has never worked for a railroad: This looked like signal malfunction or incorrect operation to me. The signal was green when you approached it, and thus can only change to yellow (indicating that the next signal can be red). You did the right thing by bringing the train to an expeditious halt and contacting operating authority for further instructions.
I assume when this matter was settled that no derogatory action was taken against you.
The controversy seems to be that he didn’t make an emergency call but a normal call to the signaler.
A GSM-R emergency call would cause all nearby trains to stop.
@@user-gc1ky2rf3y Certainly in the UK we would not make an emergency call after a signal reversion. Possibly a priority call (yellow button), but it would be the driver's choice. A GSM-R emergency call can stop trains in a wide area and isn't necessarily the best choice.
@@atraindriver Thanks to the last two commenters for clarification. As I don't and have never worked for a railroad, this level of detail is unknown to me. Presumably, train drivers are instructed on exactly how to report problems, and making a call that halts ALL rail activity in the area seems an extreme action to take, requiring a very high level of certainty that this action is necessary.
If appropriate and Original Poster is comfortable with this, I'd be curious was the final outcome was.
As an option, instead of full stop, suspecting a tech malfunction for the reasons others mention, one could have reduced to slow speed, what the US railroads call "Restricted Speed", enough to stop the train quickly if an obstacle across the tracks or misaligned switch is seen visually as the train moves, and then make the radio calls as he did, for information and guidance as to continue or stop. To me it looked like the circuit that "knocks down" the signal from whatever indication it had to all red after the train passes somehow triggered prematurely.
@@xheralt No, categorically not. A signal reverting to a red aspect means you must stop because you have no way of knowing what has caused that reversion.
There is no argument about that point from any train driver who is responding here: if a signal reverts to danger, you stop immediately. Then, and only then, do you make the call to find out what is wrong.
The discussion is whether or not making an emergency call on the GSM-R radio system is necessary or justified; in the UK it's not necessary but may be justified, whereas in the Netherlands it's apparently mandatory.
I read comments below and mulled them over as the video worked towards the critical event. That signal aspect change is "impossible". Preceding signals and that signal itself were green until it suddenly became red almost as you passed it. But that impossibility is no reason to ignore the fact that the signal went red. You have no idea if it was a malfunctioning signal or a last ditch effort to stop your train due to a sudden problem you were about to run into. So for safety, as frustrating as it may be, you absolutely MUST hit the E-Stop button as the quickest way to bring many tons of metal, plastic, and human flesh to a stop. Then ask control, "What's wrong? Signal XXX changed from green to red just before I passed it." In your case nobody can gainsay your observation. You have it on video. So they owe you an initial guess explanation and a final explanation once the repair crew has had a chance to go over that signal and its wiring. It's location in the Delft contruction zone suggests they won' t have much trouble finding the reason. As far as *I* am concerned you did very good. I cannot fault other interpretations of the event which would have been safe interpretations, this time and possibly every subsequent time in somewhat similar circumstances an argument that it's obviously a signal error. The rules should be impolitely blunt stating that even if you have reasons to be 100% sure it was a signal malfunction you must hit the big red E-Stop button then ask questions or make observations later once the train is safely stationary. Heck, that might even have been how God saved a 90 year old grandmother stuck trying to get up after falling on the tracks a crossing or two up the road. Or it might have been a simple malfunction. How are you supposed to divine the difference. That is why God inspired industry design E-Stop buttons.
{^_^} Was I emphatic enough?
Haha! Please read my pinned comment and contact me privately. As a regular viewer I owe you more info about this situation. This applies to all dear fans by the way.
@@CabviewHolland Sent email. Mentioned my YT ID in the subject. I'd decided that seeing the added data was optional as it involves embarrassment with somebody's dirty linen.
{^_^}
Ça arrive collègue 👍🏾. Je suis Conducteur de Trains en 🇫🇷 et ce genre d’incidents est prévu dans nos règlements - avec une procédure bien précise en fonction du Signal. Chez nous on appelle ça « Une fermeture Intempestive » et de façon générale la procédure nous impose de nous arrêter d’urgence, de protéger notre train éventuellement vis à vis des autres circulations et de signaler l’incident aux agents responsables de la gestion des circulations.
Ça surprend toujours mais tant que tu es réglementaire et sécuritaire, ta priorité est de maintenir cette sécurité. Si c’est le cas, tu es bon 👍🏾🏆
I managed to see the original video, shortly before you deleted it again. While I understand that you will probably prefer not to discuss the matter further in public, I am genuinely curious how anyone could think your actions were not the correct ones, given the situation. Your colleague in the VIRM obviously came to the same conclusion as you did.
Ik wil Vincent bedanken voor het delen van deze video. De keuze om het op deze manier te doen is volledig aan hem. Wij als volgers mogen blij zijn dat hij zijn tijd en energie geeft om ons de mooiste beelden te laten zien. Zijn kwaliteiten als machinist staan voor mij niet ter discussie. Dus sterkte Vincent en ik kijk uit naar de volgende video.
Dat sowieso!
Wauw, dankjewel Johan :-))
Misschien handig om het deel van het sein met uitleg nog eens te plaatsen in een aparte video, inclusief uitleg en dergelijke.
Very nice trip and video, appears you are handling the incident well, appreciate your company allowing these videos.
Watching the video it's very clear the signal went straight from green to red and it would have been impossible to avoid running that, i don't know much about railroading in that part of the world but it still is obviously ridiculous anyone would blame the driver, he did everything right.
I saw the original, and you reacted perfectly as did the driver of the oncoming train out of Delft Campus, who I imagine must have received a similar late changing Green to red.
I don't know for certain, but I guess that as the light in both directions were protecting the crossover and this was during the reworking of the tracks and signals, that somehow the wires had been crossed. It should never have happened of course, but at least it was just the signals and due to the prompt reaction of both drivers, there was no issue.
I was surprised at the length of time that the dispatchers took to sort the situation, but I guess that they had to be certain that it was safe before letting you go.
I missed the original, had this been a case of two trains on the same track heading towards each other?
@@sparkyUK No. It was signals in both directions reverting to danger (red aspect) stopping trains on both lines, which can happen if there's a fault near a crossover between tracks: both signals will fail safe and revert to danger.
Here in the UK, signals reverting to danger because of faults were a feature of my early driving career 25 years ago - so much so that it became almost a routine: "OK, we're coming up to , I wonder which of their signals will fail today?". There was even an area where if it was raining you could guess which signal would fail based on the intensity of the rain!
[Edited for a spelling correction on one word.]
A great part of regular viewers and visitors know that you’re always well prepared and very kind in your explanations. In fact, I think that is impossible to act or at least, very difficult to take an instant decision (braking at full trying to stop the convoy inmediatly provoking an unpleasant situation with the passengers and the staff or keeping ahead). But I’m sure that it was a very unpleasant scare. Even going alone in the cab. And is in those cases when people notice that being a driver of any vehicle is not just “pulling or pushing steering wheels, buttons or levers comfortably seated”. It’s about having a big responsability and taking into that dozens of souls are being taken. It’s clear that something was wrong with that signal. So keep moving NL from your ride! Very well done! Greetings from Spain.
Thanks :-)
Understand - Have a good day - Have a safe day!
Thanks :-)
Kan iemand alsjeblieft toelichten wat de beide kanten van de discussie zijn? Nu is het allemaal stil-stil-niet-meer-over-praten en dan leren we er ook niks van. Gaat het nu om het niet uit sturen van een noodoproep? Of anders, wat dan wel?
Discussie gaat inderdaad over het niet plaatsen van een alarmoproep terwijl dit altijd moet bij een stoptonend sein passage.
Dit in verband met een mogelijke calamiteit zoals de plaatsing van een kortsluitkabel.
Wanneer je bent aangewezen op TH-cam om hierover te leren, dan is er iets anders grondig mis.
@robwink3800 Zie mijn gepinde reactie.
Dispatcher from Switzerland here.
Boy, I can't even imagine how you must have felt running over that red signal 🙁
During my almost 20 years doing this, I witnessed incidents like this maybe a handfull of times, and I can can tell you, how (or even IF) you proceed totally depends on the situation itself. First of all, bring the train to a full stop and communicate with the dispatcher. The reasons for a sudden red signal are various (to just name a few):
a) a signal malfunction (the most common reason) -> the dispatcher will give you a go without any restriction, if it wasn't your fault
b) a loose car got into your way -> just stop, and ehhhm, whatever you see fit
c) some issue with a railway crossing -> dispatcher may instruct you to proceed and check on irregularities at those crossings
I don't know what the Dutch regulations are but they definitely should be clear in telling drivers to stop. I am only very familiar with the Romanian regulations, which say that a turned off signal (without the X on top) or a signal with a "dubious indication" (changing from green to yellow/red, showing a different indication than predicted by the previous signal, etc) should always be treated as red signals.
Toch wel fijn dat de video terug is. Blijft zonde die heisa, want het was een interessante situatie.
It’s lot up to us to judge how a driver drives. Drivers follow a strict safety policy so that in the case of a SPAR the driver will react quickly and efficiently if the safety systems haven’t kicked in beforehand. As someone who has witnessed a similar situation in the UK This is by no means a driver fault and the signaller who reverted the signal to a danger aspect should be held accountable for any issues after the incident.
I haven’t seen the original footage but thank you for your videos. Most of the time driving a train is not a completely difficult job but it’s when other colleagues or technology fails that it becomes hard as well you as a driver are responsible for a lot of lives behind you’re cab door.
I think it is fair to say thank you for opening a discussion at your employer about the situation. Although I saw the original video back in the day, I think you acted perfectly, regarding the safety and wellbeing of your passengers. I believe these discussions (if discussed properly) are what makes a railroad safer. I'm happy the outcomes of this situation were positive enough, I hope this won't happen to you again!
Thanks!
I cannot see how you could have acted differently. Things happened so fast what choices did you have. To my eyes you acted fast and calmly, well done
Having not seen the original video, I can only assume that you brought the train to a stand and informed the signalling centre. They then requested that you verify the next few signals were showing correct aspects. Once confirmed, normal running resumed. It's not often that signal malfunctions like that, but it does happen occasionally. This is a 'no driver error' 'signal passed at danger' and should be treated as such.
dude you acted perfectly in the way any other train driver would in the UK or across Europe, the signal was put back on in your face weather though a track circuit failure or human error as soon an you saw the red you made an emergency brake application and stopped your train in a controlled manor and then contacted the signaller alerting them to what just happened, these people that caused a stir are not train drivers or have ever worked in the railway industry they think they know what they are talking about but actually don't and i suggest they keep their gobs shut.. keep up the good work i would love to see more videos
The mistake you are making is saying its either a track circuit failure or human error.
If an accident happened another train driver could put a short circuit cable to prevent incoming trains from entering the block.
If that was the case here (which you should handle towards cause you don't know what's up ahead of you) he should have put out an emergency call and not just a regular call.
Most train accidents happen because of assumptions and downplaying situations.
@robwink3800 I take it you don't work on the railway. I ment human error as the signaller put the signal back in error that does happen. Not every signal is automatic, especially ones that control entry to crossovers, which this does and is fully manual signal
@@allansheldrake4832 I understand what you meant but you have to take into account that there can be a calamity and you always have to send out an emergency call whenever a signal drops and you passed it.
The driver in this video did not handle properly and that's why the video has been taken down and edited, to prevent showing the wrong handlings.
Also funny you assume that i dont work on the railway when i'm actually a train driver myself that has worked with the ATB system and dutch signaling (stelsel '54) & ERTMS.
It might be a language barrier since i primarly work in dutch so please elaborate on what you don't understand.
@@robwink3800 Every country has its own rules in these circumstances and commentators will respond assuming their rules are the only ones which reply, which can be a cause for confusion. I assume that's what the previous commentator has done.
In the UK where I drive, we would not make a GSM-R emergency call for a signal reverting to danger unless we also saw something that was a risk to other trains. It would be the driver's choice whether to make a normal call or a priority call (I don't know if your GSM-R are the same as ours, we have red button for emergency call, yellow button for priority call and 1-1 button for an ordinary call to the controlling signaller), and to be honest a driver would be more likely to be criticised for making an emergency call and stopping trains in a wide area just for a signal reversion than for not doing so.
Track circuit clips (short circuit cables as you call them) are now mostly useless in the UK as we're generally switching to axle counters nowadays from track circuits, and track circuiting was never continuous on most lines, but we still have TC clips and use them as a back-up safety measure ("belt and braces", as we say) because a train driver has no way of knowing if there's a track circuit on a specific section of track and it can't hurt to put them down - and it might help. The sort of problem for which we would put down TC clips is one that we definitely would hit the red button on the GSM-R, though, and definitely not just a signal reversion.
@@atraindriver Yea that's my main concern, the people saying he acted perfectly fine when they don't know about the dutch regulations.
You can't count on other trains having a functional gsm-r to send out the emergency call, that's why the regulations in the netherlands say to always put out an emergency call in a situation like this. No one will be criticised for acting towards to safe side. You WILL be criticised for downplaying it and resulting in a fatal accident.
From a signalling engineer (not in the NL) point of view, there's nothing else a driver can do, other than applying emergency brakes and getting in touch with the operator.
I'm not familiar with that type of interlocking, but in my country, the seen behaviour can only be produced in follwing scenarios: a technical fault, the loss of the integrity of one of the elements neccessary to proceed to the next signal (flank protection, faulty switch, a track segment getting occupied) or the operator manually setting the signal back due to an emergency (object on the track or such things).
in Denmark this is considered a signal fault and you cannot be held accountable. If the signal has any reason to be red, it simply cannot be set to green, and even if it's green and suddenly cancelled and reset to red, the computers won't let the signal go to red immediately, especially if it knows there's a train approaching. Thus, stop and check. We only have ATC to stop trains that run a red, and that system is not entirely reliable, so drivers still have to drive according to the signal lights no matter what - can't rely on the automation to keep you safe
Hoezo discussie over een machinist die stopt voor een rood sein... hoe dan? Zijn we collectief zo afgezakt?
This happened to me a few times, I have been lucky the one time the OCC Supervisor/Signaller called me over the radio to warn me. Normally just put the TBC into emergency, call the OCC and get authority to override the ATP intervention. Check for any broken rails/obstructions - you will be limited to proceed on sight speed until the next update by the ATP too.
This and not being able to stop before the buffer stops have been a recurring dream/nightmare lol
Goed gereden, goed gehandeld. Ik heb de originele video gezien, en begrijp dat je er een stuk uit hebt gehaald. Het gaat mij om het land zien, niet om te leren hoe ik machinist kan worden (5.000 km woon-werk verkeer is bovendien te lastig). PS ik vind Barendrecht het meest innovatieve station van Nederland. Dankjewel voor de video.
Voorkomt inderdaad veel onnodige discussies over nsr+/vvrv verschillen dus misschien wel beter op deze manier om de film alsnog te kunnen tonen :D
Blijft een mooie cabinerit!
You censored yourself, I don't understand if there was nothing graphic that could be shown. I saw the video but they took it down before I could see what happened.
Ik neem aan dat niemand bewust door een rood sein rijdt, maar met deze snelheid is het onmogelijk om voor het sein tot stilstand te komen. En wat betreft de achtergrond regeltjes is mij onbekend, maar neem aan dat de machinist correct gehandeld heeft.🤔👍
The discussion with the despatcher has been removed, then? I can see why internal communications might be not for public broadcast. So has any explanation been offered yet? Must be either signaller's error or a technical fault. As there was another train coning the other day (in the original) that was also stopped, a fault would seem most likely
Wow - this is the first I learned of a prior 1945mm wide gauge in the Netherlands. I'll have to look into it more. Thanks.
I went from Pueba, Mexico to La Jolla, Calificoria (a little more than 3 1/2 flight). Was made to be 4 to 9 days gone for an annuall. Kept 'up' hositalized. It turned out -- 21 days gone -- nissed this video. As alwas, it's super. Gracias. Super Cabview. RT, sends, Puebla, Mexico...
Glad you are OK!
From an Aussie train driver, you did everything correct. If that was in Victoria Australia, the same practice would be applied. Emergency Brake application, immediate contact to Metrol and await further instruction from them. I can't understand what could possibly be up for discussion here and why your colleagues might suggest other action.
Apparently Dutch rules require that a GSM-R Emergency call is made (stopping all traffic) rather than just contacting the controlling signaller. That's different to UK rules and I guess different to Aussie rules too.
Great video as always but as a long-time newsman I want to see what you edited out. You had no choice but to throw it into emergency under the circumstances. As usual, I followed the route on Google maps and spent quite awhile at Rotterdam Stadion looking at the pictures of all the diverse equipment! So thanks again for the excellent work. Be Safe!
The signal dropped instantly from green to red whilst the train was on such close approach to it that it was impossible to stop the train in time before passing that signal, but setting the emergency brake was prudent because that signal might've dropped from green to danger not only because of a malfunction, but also a broken rail, or a SPAD/SPAR occurring elsewhere.
It goes without saying that reporting this to the train controller or dispatcher ASAP would be required by operating rules.
I've seen rail signals suddenly drop to red from green--and 'Christmas treeing', all aspects flashing alternately.
While automatic train stop systems (ATS) are in place on every metro (subway/el train) system I know of, and on some tramways' (trolley car systems') exclusive rights-of-way, until the implementation of positive train control (PTC)--an ATS system that will stop the train if the engineer SPADs/SPARs or exceeds the permitted speed--in the USA, trunk railways didn't have ATS until implementation PTC, which relies on GPS and regional RF communications to work.
If your operating rules dictate an emergency brake application if you SPAD/SPAR, that's prudent. There needn't be any controversy over your correct handling of this situation.
Because you were operating an electric multiple-unit train, I dare say that the abundance of traction motors in your train stopped you faster than a locomotive-hauled/pushed consist.
Super goed gehandeld en ik heb mijn complete respect voor jou!
At departure “high green” and I can even heat an ATB code change with a speed improvement. Train departs and the next signal is showing green. But 20 meters in front of your train it “falls off” and a SPAD is the result.
There are only 3 scenarios in which this can happen:
1, signaler is pulling the signal = tea and biscuits unless safety was otherwise compromised.
2. Another train has made a SPAD and your path was involved.
3. Technical failure (which in this case I deem most likely) like a short cut of power to the signal (which will then result in it going to it’s default “safe” state which will almost always be red).
I can not imagine this SPAD will be in your record and held against you in future. If they did then it’s time for some serious talks at HGB (NS HQ) with the trade unions involved. Hope you recovered from this okay…. A colleague from NS International.
My guess this kind of events is one reason why we here in Denamrk are now implementing fully automatic train control systems.
Many main lines no more have the visual line signals.
Instead the driver is notified when the system takes control of his train.
In visual control systems, you can not prevent situations where the signal changes from clear to stop in the last possible moment to be visually recognized.
This may lead to - and to my knowledge actually have lead to - dangerous situations.
In my electronics world this is called "signal racing" and can lead to erroneous functionality, as the system can not detect which event actually is first.
Fortunately this is now prevented by software controlled systems, which can decide priority of events, when they seemingly occors simultaneously.
It’s been a while since I’ve watched one of your great videos….it’s always good to see one, and again it’s a great video ,well done ✔️ keep up the good work..😊
Thanks!
Respect!
The Uk TOC (train operating company) that I worked for, but probably all the companies, you would get a welfare call from management before proceeding. This is to check your state of mind, you are unaware of the reasons that it went red. Broken rail, obstruction on the line etc must be in your mind, you do not want to be dwelling on it, whilst going forward and it affecting your concentration.
Signal changed to red right in front of you. No way you could stop the train right before the signal in this situation. I did not see an original video, but from this one I believe you applied emergency break right after you've seen red, so everything is alright. I am not a train driver, but I love trains. I also know that you are a cool train driver and I love to watch your videos from time to time, keep it up!
Thanks for this big compliment! :-)
Ik vind het echt vreemd dat je over zo’n situatie niet kunt praten, en dat je risico’s loopt door je mening te geven. Het is best jammer dat mensen zo gevoelig reageren en het probleem gewoon onder de mat schuiven in plaats van er een nuttig gesprek over te hebben. Maar echt, bedankt dat je dit hebt gedeeld en ik denk dat je het heel goed hebt aangepakt!
I'm so sorry this has caused so much fuss for you. I wasn't fortunate enough to see the original video, but from the comments it seems you did an emergency stop. It's almost crazy this would cause any uproar - there is surely no other sensible course of action? A sudden red means some kind of fault, or the signaller knows of an issue ahead (track fault, track obstruction etc) and you need to stop right now. This puts safety as the number one priority, exactly as it should be on the rails.
I hope one day to see the original film and understand the situation entirely, but the section remaining in this video is enough to at least partially understand.
Excellent video (as always), a dramatic situation well handled.
All i want to say thanks for sharing it, and i would be happy to travel with you anytime. Keep safe friend from Hamilton New Zealand happy travels
In Poland main regulations ("Instrukcja o prowadzeniu ruchu pociągów Ir-1" and "Instrukcja sygnalizacji Ie-1") state, that dispatcher is obligated to give a written order "S" (plot 4 - "Inne") in order to allow train driver to continue his journey. But if train driver passes the red signal on purpose (I mean situation, when the signal is red and the driver was warned about this via other signals - "tarcza ostrzegawcza" or other signal), then the special commission is called up and the full investigation process is started by them. Greetings from PL!
Hoe gebeurt dat uberhaupt? Is er een trein nog net voor jou langs een sein in de buurt gegaan, waardoor het toch weer op rood ging?
Absolutely terrifying for you. Thank you for sharing it with us.
U heeft dus een stukje uit de video gehaald omdat u volgens uw collega's toch niet helemaal de juiste procedure zou hebben gevolgd? Of is het omdat u, in tegenstelling tot wat uw collega's doen, het WEL goed heeft gedaan?
Heb inn leeuwarden een keer gehad dat ik moest wachten. Duurde lang voordat de trein langs kwam rijden de auto achter mij fond dat ik moest gaan rijden wat ik niet deed ze gingen om mij heen en misten op een haar na de trein die er aan kwam.
You did the right thing. When in doubt, bring the train to a safe stop as quickly as possible, phone it in to the operations center and go from there. Just because you never saw a yellow doesn't mean anything IMO. What if the yellow signal wasn't working correctly? When it went red you have to assume it is a stopped train ahead or a switch in the wrong position etc...... Perhaps a derailment has occurred and all the signals suddenly went red from the operations center bringing the entire line to a halt. Why risk it?
Anytime as a passenger when you get on a public train, plane, bus or boat you have to 100 percent have faith that the operator(s) up front are 100 percent on their game. Otherwise it could spell disaster for hundreds of people. You put your life in that operators hands anytime you board that vehicle. You bet I'd rather you respect a signal passed at red vs just meh, a faulty circuit, carry on. Accidents are one thing. Negligence is another.
From NSW Australia - As a Signaller of 43 years, If a signal goes to the stop or Danger position un expectantly, the train driver is to bring their train to a stop as soon and as safely as possible. Then a call is made to the Signaller or Control Officer for further instructions. I am very interested to know what the situation at the Main Rotterdam station was with the signals going on and off but the train was allowed to contnue across facing points as it entered and left the station.
Must be the effect that is caused by the 60fps of the recording and the 50Hz of the signal lights.
Gelukkig trainen ze machinisten hierop. Het is geen normaal sein beeld van groen en plotseling Rood. Hopelijk kunnen ze uitvinden waarom er plotsing een rood sein werd gegeven. Centrale verkeersleiding (nood situatie) of storing. Denk dat een spoormeester schrikt als dit gebeurt. Een trein die 120 rijd en dan een noodstop maken.😮
ProFail.
There is no way you could have stopped as that signal changed just as you approached it..... not your fault.
Whatever the cause of the sudden signal change and however you responded to it, this is an invaluable video for training other drivers and railway employees.
People say the signal turned from green to red, but it clearly cycles through amber to red for no more than a second.
I’m not going to speculate on the cause of the change. As the signal looks like it controls the trailing points ahead, would it not have ‘approach locking’ securing the route from the previous signal? If so, does this count as a ‘right side failure’?
I'm really surprised that your way of handling it would cause a stir among colleagues, particularly when the health & safety regulator agreed your conduct was proper (although I do not know how you handled it as you've removed said section from the video). Here in Britain, a driver has to stop if they encounter a signal change back to red in front of them (in signaller terminology this is known as an "Adverse Change of Aspect" or ACOA, and refers to any situation where the signal changes in front of them from showing a more restrictive indication (aspect) than the one it was showing before. Normally they would then call the signaller to report it. It may be a fault with the signalling system, or the signaller may have deliberately changed the signal in front of the driver -the latter is an exceptional case that is not supposed to happen in normal working practice, if the signaller finds themself needing to do this, then they *can expect* to receive a call from the effected driver, and it's considered something to avoid if at all possible as it's poor form to the driver.
ja, dat was inderdaad apart. Gelukkig was er geen materieel in de buurt waarmee je in botsing had kunnen komen.
Tijdens mijn bezoek aan Sydney is de machinist waarmee ik meereed overkomen dat we een vol rood passeerden zonder voorafgaand geel. Ging verder goed en is later officieel afgedaan als verkeerd tonend seinbeeld. Vanwege de mechanische beveiliging daar (uitstekende balk aan het sein tikt een luchtklep open onder je trein, waardoor je snelremming ingezet wordt) zijn we veilig tot stilstand gekomen.
Automatic train stop (ATS) be praised!
Tussen Schiphol Airport en Dordrecht Kuifje op de Tekenfilm in Jaren 90
@13:10 het witte stationsgebouw van Abcoude was in 1977 buitenwerking gesteld en vervangen door een nieuw station met 2 perrons net ten zuiden ervan. Dat nieuwere station is in 2007 gesloten en vervangen door het huidige station ten noorden van de tunnel.
Heej… dus mijn info klopt niet. Ik ga het in toekomstige videos aanpassen. Bedankt voor de tip!
Jeetje, dat is inderdaad wel even schrikken. Gelukkig kon de rit nog voortgezet worden!
I am confused. Was there a collision? What happened ?
The light changes to red as the train approaches. No way of stopping.
😅aankomst hier 01:40.😅mooie rit weer,hartelijk bedankt Mr Vincent.fijn weekend verders. greetz:🍐Peer. morgen livecams de 5 bruggen i.v.m. de F1.🤣
1:13:28 vreemd dat dit gebeuren kan eigenlijk 100 meter voor het sein en dan Poef in eens rood, Heel apart wel hoor. Maar Een hele leuke rit Vincent!
Ik kom er op omdat deze video in Dordrecht eindigt, waar ik woon en vanwaar ik tussen 1979 en 2009 30 jaar op en neer heb gereden naar Rotterdam.
Ik bekijk veel van dit soort videos, en het valt me op dat ze bijv. in Zwitserland en België pas vlak voor het station beginnen te remmen, soms zo laat dat je denkt: gaat de trein hier nou stoppen of niet, en, vooral in België, rijden ze ook helemaal door tot het eind van het perron, ook als daar de uitgang niet is.
In deze video begin je in station Zwijndrecht al af te remmen en rijdt op een sukkeldrafje Dordrecht binnen. Dat verwonderdt me dus al 45 jaar.
Ik leg het ook voor aan de andere volgers: wat is volgens jullie beter?
Bij binnenkomst van Dordrecht vanuit het noorden wordt je via de seinen opgelegd de snelheid te verlagen naar 40, vanwege de 40-wissels voor het station. Vertrek je als stoptrein vanaf Zwijndrecht, dan zit je al direct in dit opgelegde 40-km gebied en kun/mag je helaas niet je snelheid boven de 40 verhogen. Het is dan een lang stuk kachelen inderdaad..
Uit de oorspronkelijke video die ik nog zag kon ik toch geen enkele verkeerde handeling van jouw kant opmaken. Waarschijnlijker is de mangement procedure verfijnd moeten worden en is het daarom dat net dat deel eruit geknipt is. Maar begrijp wel dat je niet alles kan tonen.
Tussen Schiphol Airport en Dordrecht de Musical Kuifje De Zonnetempel Net als Kinderen voor Kinderen
Nice video again, thanks. 🙂 What do the two vertically positioned white lights in the schipholtunnel, that burn alternately mean?
Thanks! Those warn railroad workers for oncoming trains.
Wow that new Delft station looks amazing
Volgens mij ook gewoon goed gehandeld, er had ook een incident net even verderop kunnen zijn waardoor het sein op rood is gezet. Stel dat een wissel niet goed stond door een storing en een tegemoetkomende trein op hetzelfde spoor had gezet.
Is this real train driving or a stimulation on computer?
totally a system error and in the main control room where your dispatchers are located for that area will check and see that it did go green to red,plus you have it on video what happen so no blame to you ro anyone a simple system glitch but least it made your company look and talk about it as other drivers may have that happen to them
1:13:21, incident.
Petje af meester.
Wat was er dan te zien, op dat stukje film wat je er hebt uit gehaald? Mag je dat omschrijven?
Het weggeknipte stukje bevatte de communicatie met de treindienstleiding. Sommige mensen waren het niet eens met de manier waarop die communicatie plaatsvond. Er schijnt hier regelgeving over te bestaan die op meer dan 1 manier opgevat kan worden.
:-)
1:17:35 - the end cab design of these new electric multiple units reminds me very much of the classic 1960s 2- and 4-car sets. (I think the designation was something like M64 - presumably the year of design or first build).
Mat ‘54, nicknamed Hondekop, yes, I think so too.
Everything was done right as far as I can tell there was nothing you could have done to not run the red signal because it changed as you were approaching the signal normally you should have advanced warning about the red signal but I don't know everything that happened. I'm glad everyone was OK. That must have been terrifying.
Ik heb al eens zoiets op youtube gezien. Dat overkwam 2 van jou collega's tegelijk. Een intercity en een sprinter naast elkaar. Het is een technische storing waar de meester mee te maken krijgt. Neem aan dat dit soort situaties aan de orde komen tijdens de opleiding.
You did exactly the right thing... Also I saw this is a 29 year old train with less than 250,000km on the odometer, is there a rebuild / restoration that resets the odometer? I see 10 year old cars here in Canada with over 300,000km on the odometer. Hard to believe a 29 year old train would have such low "mileage"
Love the videos, keep up the great job and hope to be on your train when I visit in October!
Train odometers only go to 1 million klm so it's possible the odometer has already been around the clock
They do not reset them they are recalibrate every 100,000 klm
Sometimes mileage is suspiciously low. I always thought they must have been reset but I will check with maintenance when I get the chance if there is a specific reason for this.
The driver ran the red light because it changed too late but why did he still keep going instead of coming to a safe stop ? Did I miss something ?
See my pinned comment.
Is this a second re-upload?
Yeah, it already says in the description :)
The signal was green entering and exiting Delft station so you did the right thing stopping the train. You are not a mind reader so stopping a train at a red signal whatever the situation is always the best thing to do. Hopefully this signal malfunction does not happen in the Schiphol tunnel in the future as that tunnel is always congested.
Wait... didn't you pass a red just a few videos ago? Or was that your fellow NS TH-camr Machinist Stefan?
Never Mind, I am an idiot, it is the same video. Just reading the description after I thought it looked awfully familiar lmao.
Ervan uitgaande dat er ongeveer 0,2 seconden reactietijd is voor een volwassene, schat ik zo in dat je binnen een paar tienden van een seconde een snelremming inzette. Nu ken ik de reglementen niet, maar ik vraag me af wat je dan beter gedaan zou kunnen hebben.
Waarom heb jij geen toestemming gekregen om het stukje te laten zien van het door ROOD rijden?
Ten slotte het laat de realiteit zien en in dat stukje is niks te zien dat op welke form dan ook schade toont.
Het laat zelfs zien dat als er onenigheid in meet instrumentatie is dat dan automatisch de veiligheid voorop gaat.
En stel dat de wissel op welke manier dan ook toch was omgegaan dat dan de impact van de dan zijn ontstaande ongeluk zeer klein zou zijn geweest door de robuustheid van de treinstellen en de lage snelheid.
Ik hoop dat management van zowel ProRail als de NS dit ook leest en dat alsnog de volledige niet geknipte versie weer getoond kan worden voor juist de leermomenten.
"Waarom heb jij geen toestemming gekregen om het stukje te laten zien van het door ROOD rijden?"
Zo te lezen heeft hij er voor gekozen om het stukje na het rode signaal er uit te halen, om verdere discussie te voorkomen over of hij het goed of fout deed.
Out in Australia you have trip gear on all suburban trains that applies the brakes and brings the train to a slow stop
In country area's there is a phone next to the track if you go through a red you can continue to the next signal but at only 40 klm/hr this is the permissive block system
Waarschijnlijk vanwege onderzoek. Ik neem aan dat de video wel is meegenomen in het onderzoek
Je kan niet uitgaan van een wissel dat omgegaan is ‘en je maar op lage snelheid rijdt dus er zal niet zoveel aan de hand zijn’ een sein kan ook afvallen omdat een andere trein in je rijweg belandt, een machinist een kortsluitkabel plaatst (al zou die wss een alarmoproep gekregen hebben dan). Jij laat precies zien met wat je zegt waar het gevaar in deze situatie in schuilt, je weet het niet dus handel je en ga je van ‘het ergste uit’
Ik kan in deze video niet zien wat nou het punt was, maar, naar mijn idee, ging dat sein wel idioot snel naar rood, dus wat er ook gebeurd is, ik zie weinig dat je had kunnen doen, om hier goed op te anticiperen.
Bedankt voor het opnieuw uploaden van deze video. Kunt u de volgende opmerking uitleggen? Op 54:40 tonen alle seinen voor de vier sporen groen, hoewel een seconde voordat een trein op het meest linkse spoor is gepasseerd? Met vriendelijke groet uit Duitsland.
De seinen zijn zogenoemde ‘P’ seinen oftewel automatische seinen. Zodra de trein die links rijdt het ‘blok’ verlaat en het sein voorbij rijdt, gaat het sein van rood naar groen. Dit omdat het blok nu vrij is en in die zin veilig bereden kan worden. Als u zou kijken in de rijrichting van de trein werkt dat hetzelfde. Als de trein een blok binnen rijdt, gaat het sein dat hij net gepasseerd is op rood. Wanneer hij het volgende blok binnen rijdt en sein passeert, gaat de eerste op geel. En bij de volgende weer op groen. Hopelijk helpt dit een beetje :)
@@lifeoftrains59 Ik ben bekend met de blokseinen. Maar is het niet zo dat alle seinen waar niets gebeurt standaard rood moeten zijn? Hier is het sein voor het blok echter weer groen, ook al rijdt er links op de tegenoverliggende rijstrook een trein.
@@bike-bytes let er op dat het sein pas groen wordt als de trein er al helemaal voor is. En ongeacht afwijkende situaties, zullen P seinen in rust groen tonen
@@lifeoftrains59 Sorry, ik kende de P-signalen niet en nu heb ik de P ook gezien
Why did you take the part after passing the red signal away? As a train driver for 40 years in Switzerland similar situations happend 3 times for me. All whats to do is applaying the emergency brake and by passing the signal the system is doing the same also. If the train finally was standing still I took a call to the superviser who gave me the okay to continue after all was in a protocol written down. No penalty for me of course.
Interesting. Please contact me at cabviewholland@me.com.
@@CabviewHolland this email doesnt work.
@@ppanzer7243 Ah, it should be cabviewholland@gmail.com
On the little jerkwater shortline I work on this is what would happen given what can be seen in the video. Signal malfunction. Train in B-Max. SPAD. Train stops. Dispatch called. Down load of signaling, video and Event Recorder. Signals clears line. Supervisor does fit for duty. Train continues. Unusual Event reported and investigated. (Usually dispatch is calling the train before the train can call dispatch.) Happens a few times a year. It's a big deal until it is determined it isn't a big deal.
I am not a train driver. I don't understand most of the signs and signals. But things happen. I didn't see the video before the edit, so I don't know what steps you took...but as I said I am not a train driver. I don't speak your language, so even if there was audio of conversation, I wouldn't understand it. HOWEVER, any time someone has a job issue, it is between them and their supervisors. Even if other train drivers disagree, the internet is not the place to argue it out. Even if our friend driver here did make a mistake, have none of you made a mistake in your job? And that for me is a big IF. So lay off and just appreciate the scenery we get to see in his videos.
Nice of you to invite us to join! Is Dutch language a requirement? Lovely video!
Thanks! Yes, it is.