23:55. "How can the Dread by made using the Light if the Tormentors were in Lightfall and they're part of the Dread?" I think this is just a massive error in communication from Bungie's part. The two can coexist. I think what they MEANT to say is that the new Dread units that we see in TFS are the ones who have been created by the Witness' experimentation with the Light, while the Tormentors and even Rhulk and such were created solely using Darkness. Basically the new Dread we see in TFS were created using Light AND Dark, while the previous Dread we've encountered were made ONLY WITH DARK.
@@HairyKnuckleSandwhich What, the Tormentors? Remember they were also created with the help of Calus. They have Psionic power as well, and what's the energy that Psion's use when they boop you up in the air?
@@RespiteofChampionsI don’t think that’s specifically a psion power. Psions still can’t suppress Guardians, best they can do is Detain cages but even Taniks can do that. They prob just draw from the same power or technique of gravity.
@@HairyKnuckleSandwhichwell void is kind of a grey area in Destiny. Nezarec used the void but wasn’t a light bearer. He treated the void as a thrown-world in a sense. He could hide in the Absence in space. He’s probably there now. The Nezarec we got it the Raid was Hilariously bad. So I hope so anyway.
I’m gonna be completely honest, I’ve talked to friends back in February and said that in the Traveler we will find the Gardener, that she’s been using the Traveler as a Teraforming tool As for the ending, I predict we will see a reveal of the actual Winnower. That he was using the witness to put an end to the concept of the flower game and that he will become the focus of the story in the future of destiny.
The witness has a totally different concept of the final shape referred to in the flower game. The winnower would renounce the witness, not use him. The witness's ideology is quite literally the antithesis of what the winnower preaches.
I had the exact same thought Ven. The Tormentors cannot be a Dread if they are indeed made partly of Light. They were present before the Witness had access to the Light.
Just like how the latest Pantheon notes state that both Rhulk and Nezarec are considered Dread. Nez is called a Dread, the Prime Tormentor and has an unknown "origin" species. We also know Rhulk was Lubrean but hes considered a Dread now. It goes on to say "created from Rhulks blueprint, Nezarec was the first Tormentor than all others owe their lineage"
I have a theory that the tormentors weren't created intentionally by the witness, since the dread use darkness elements like strand and stasis, it's obvious that they aren't purely made of light, more like a fusion between the light and darkness, but it's not the first time that this happened, when the traveller tried to ward off the witness and it's pyramid by releasing light energy, it unintentionally brought Nezarec back from the dead with a new body, we know that he had a lot of cultists, many of them being psions who could feel his psychic imprint that was left across the solar system even after his death, it's not out of the question that these psions could have followed it's trace to the pyramid where his remains were and died in some way, with their husks later being resurrected as the tormentors, as many of them are simply named "imprint of Nezarec", it could explain their relations with the cabal and their usage of void light, and seeing how effective the tormentors came to be, the witness decided to experiment further with this light and dark fusion in the pale heart, creating the dread
I agree 1,000,000% with you YET AGAIN VEN. If all people care about is the story of how we save the big white ball and how the characters of the story interact with each other and how that gets done and defeating the Witness and turning it into a gun, that's perfectly fine. But WHAT I NEED from this story is a reveal of the ACTUAL GARDENER AND WINNOWER. I WANT them to be physical actual characters. I NEED it. It's what has been secretly built up to in the lore over the last DECADE. And if it doesn't happen, I will be SEVERELY underwhelmed and even disappointed with this expansion. This IS the very end of this over a decade long saga. The big players need to finally be revealed. The big questions need to finally be given answers.
When you say that the witness has never shown interest in us before, I’m assuming you don’t think that the doppelgänger at the end of shadowkeep was the witness? I’ve seen a lot of people comment pretty convincingly on why it is the witness, from his hand motions to his way of talking.
It it’s always shown interest in us as a tool. The ENTIRETY of beyond light was an elaborate mind game to make its side seem palatable and easy to side with. Shadowkeep was a personal invitation. In lightfall WE were its means to an end.
You know what? I think I'm going to make a video on this, because the question of the Witness's relationship to us keeps coming up, and I actually think that it's a bit more nuanced than people realize. To give you the most basic answer possible: My opinion is that SK-BL was the Witness effectively grooming us to get Darkness powers. This happened to not just us but Lisbon's fireteam in the Black Garden as well. But after BL, nothing. The Witness hasn't spoken to us since, and in LF it barely acknowledged us. So what happened? I think we get the answer from looking at the Dark Future. What happened when Guardians got the Darkness without guidance? The City fell apart from all the infighting. THAT is what the Witness wanted. The whole point of Elsie in BL, was her making sure we got Stasis with guidance, completely averting the Dark Future. The Witness's plan failed here. That's in my opinion why after BL, the Pyramids don't give us gifts anymore, and treat us like the enemies we are, with the exception of Communion in WQ, where the Europan Pyramid needs us to help it. That's my "short" take on it anyway.
@@Venextron I think regarding his lack of interest in us regarding Light fall was intentional? He always indented to possess the ghost, and use it to connect to the veil. Calus was bait, this is why he connected to the ghost when talking with calus in that one mission. His lack of interest in us is intentional, apart of the manipulation because we are the center piece. We are the God Killer, The witness has been interested in us for along time and never lost it.
The second video confirmed that Tormentors and Subjugators are just clones of Rhulk and Nazerac. So the “made with light and dark” doesn’t apply to them. We may see upgraded versions in the expansion.
For the Tormentor I can only think of one answer/possibility: A device or storage similar to the Radial Mast. Remember(even though the explanation and story sucked) our Ghost was speaking to us in Calus's Typhus Imperitus, saying that it felt Light of the Traveler from it. How was Calus able to harbor pure, uncorrupted Light?
23:55 because Essence got blasted by light from the traveler, hell we see the tormentors using void (suppressing n stuff) to body us, and Nezarec has souped up powers, presumably from said blast.
In terms if how good the animations look, that one animation with the Venom sludge and the feather really strikes me out as maybe Sony did a little helping there. They have done such animations before and I know how hard these fluid animations are, especially if they behave different to what most people know, since it's not actually liquid
Maybe light is life, and darkness is death and so when he uses the light, he is just creating vessels to hold the darkness for him. Because he doesn’t have any army available besides the taken and his goal is to make a perfect universe where everything is in its final form pretty much, so he is experimenting trying to create these powerful beings use both light and dark
You know... Tormentors use Void powers, while being Darkness enemies. On the subject of the Witness's Light experimenting, I think what we are overlooking is what Rohan died to back in Lightfall; the Radial Mast. I mean, why would the Witness gift Calus a supposed Light Artifact, if we were to believe it's race was a darkness race??? Actually on top of that; how did Calus's Light Suppression devices even worked, if it didn't have known powers to reference off of.
I feel like while the witness feels like it is beyond us, it respects our efforts, hence offering us a seat. I believe the witness is completely ignorant to the idea of failure. Calus’ lines in Lightfall may come to fruition in hilarious fashion
about the last part where u speak about dread psions having the darkness, didnt the psions already have connections to the darkness? Both cause of their abilities related to the mind and the connections they have had with stuff like nezy not sure if this holds tho
I think there's a difference between connecting to the Darkness in that sense, and using Stasis or Strand. That's just how I see it though. The Psion lore is a bit of a messy area for me.
I am so freaking hyped for this. This season, Bungie has slowly been giving us things we have been wanting for years. We know what Bungie is capable of when their backs are against the wall... And their backs aren't just against the wall. They are literally pinned against the wall. If Bungie wants to continue and thrive. They are gonna have to bring it and go above and beyond. I have no doubt that Bungie is gonna give us a banger. For me, the true test is going to come on day 1 release. Is Bungie gonna hold back on their servers to save money and wait until they are at peak to finally flip the switch. Or are they gonna go all out, balls to the wall and flip the switch on all of their servers from the get-go so that we're not stuck in a que for 2-3 hours. I honestly believe that there are thousands of Destiny players who desperately care about the Gardener and Winnowers origin. Destiny lore is a huge deal with it's player base. Bungie has always gone all out with the lore of Destinys universe and I'm positive we are going to get answers to the important questions we've been asking since D1. I'm sooooo hype for Final Shape. I've been waiting for and wanting answers for years. The Final Shape is going to give me those answers and I can't wait. The stress of waiting for The Final Shape is damn near palatable. You read that right. For me the wait is literally stressful. The Final Shape has been living in my head rent free for a long time now. On a separate note... I'd give anything to work at Bungie. I have so many ideas for Destiny that would sell the game in record numbers. Every idea I have has been influenced by ideas that I have heard from other Destiny junkies. If only we could all get together and bring our ideas to life. I'd love to see a prequel. Imagine playing the first half of the game as a regular human fighting through the fall of the Golden Age and the second half of the game waking up as one of the very first Guardians. Or you could start off as one of the first Guardians. Then halfway through the game, you learn that you were a soldier during the fall of the Golden Age as you play that soldier during flashbacks. It could work. There are Guardians who learn about their past all the time. Either way would be extremely cool. I've been wanting to see the Golden Age in its prime forever. Playing as a soldier during the beginning of it's demise or as one of the very first Guardians seems like a really interesting concept. I've said enough. If you've made it through my entire comment... Bless you. I hope you were at least a little bit entertained. If not I apologize. Destinys universe and lore is my favorite part about Destiny. Reading flavor text and lore book entries is a favorite pass time of mine. I also enjoy watching TH-cam lore channels. Despite Destinys short comings, it has remained as the game I play more than any other ever since the release of Destiny 1. Through the years I have taken small breaks, but I always return. I just love the universe and everything it has to offer. It's so deep and so immersive. It has so much to soak up and learn about. Everything has substance. Not all weapons, armor and vehicles have lore tabs, but so many of them do. Every piece of equipment does have a relevant quote attached to it though. As you can see by my insanely large comment, Destiny is definitely a big deal to me. I could go on and on about my reasons for loving Destiny. The Dreadknot, The Dreaming City... There is so much to love and appreciate. If I don't stop now, I'll continue typing until an error message appears. Now if you've made it this far... You deserve to be paid for your time. Hopefully it wasn't wasted. If it was, then I am truly sorry that my passion for Destiny interrupted your day. I'm serious. I apologize for wasting your time. Thank you for reading, have a wonderful day and hopefully we will meet in game to kill some Taken, Vex and all the other baddies of Destiny.
So honestly I think the gardener and winnoner are going to be players and we will see them but I think the witness is going to be the main focus and after the witness we will have a ideological battle between the two with the winnoner and the gardener coming up here and there but we as guardians are the people who will prove either gardener or winnoner right or do something beyond what both thought and prove them both right and wrong
Hey ven, just a question. Did you look at the soundtrack leaks for final shape ? Dont know if you look at leaks or not but they have some interesting soundtrack names.
what if... and hear me out... the witness is more related to the gardener than the winnower? or at least follows it's philosophy of the hatred of death? the winnower seems to be described as an agent of change, and while that change eventually leads to nothing, it was beautiful. it seems to be the one who would nudge a river to see the effects of a flood the witness, however, clearly desires stagnation. I dont think its goal is the death of everything, but simply the cessation of change itself. freezing reality as a perfect piece of art, with no blemishes or flaws.
As far as hype goes, I’m a bit excited about everything we’re getting in FS. BUT the story needs to be better than WQ AND TAKEN KING AND FORSAKEN COMBINED. The story of FS will determine the future of Destiny 2 and if it will continue regardless of the episodes.
![[Live สด] การออกรางวัลสลากกินแบ่งรัฐบาล งวดวันที่ 16 ธันวาคม 2567](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/dNTiBBthKgQ/mqdefault.jpg)
When the Witness says says he needs a godslayer, does he want us to kill the traveler?
23:55. "How can the Dread by made using the Light if the Tormentors were in Lightfall and they're part of the Dread?" I think this is just a massive error in communication from Bungie's part. The two can coexist. I think what they MEANT to say is that the new Dread units that we see in TFS are the ones who have been created by the Witness' experimentation with the Light, while the Tormentors and even Rhulk and such were created solely using Darkness. Basically the new Dread we see in TFS were created using Light AND Dark, while the previous Dread we've encountered were made ONLY WITH DARK.
Why do they use void energy then, suppression etc...
@@HairyKnuckleSandwhich What, the Tormentors? Remember they were also created with the help of Calus. They have Psionic power as well, and what's the energy that Psion's use when they boop you up in the air?
@@RespiteofChampionsI don’t think that’s specifically a psion power. Psions still can’t suppress Guardians, best they can do is Detain cages but even Taniks can do that. They prob just draw from the same power or technique of gravity.
Could be Light siphoned from the worlds conquered by the black fleet.
@@HairyKnuckleSandwhichwell void is kind of a grey area in Destiny. Nezarec used the void but wasn’t a light bearer. He treated the void as a thrown-world in a sense. He could hide in the Absence in space. He’s probably there now. The Nezarec we got it the Raid was Hilariously bad. So I hope so anyway.
I’m gonna be completely honest, I’ve talked to friends back in February and said that in the Traveler we will find the Gardener, that she’s been using the Traveler as a Teraforming tool
As for the ending, I predict we will see a reveal of the actual Winnower. That he was using the witness to put an end to the concept of the flower game and that he will become the focus of the story in the future of destiny.
Nailed it
Matt that would be a dream come true my friend.
The witness has a totally different concept of the final shape referred to in the flower game. The winnower would renounce the witness, not use him. The witness's ideology is quite literally the antithesis of what the winnower preaches.
9:38 Ven gets possesed by Witness while saying "GET HIM BOYS" in the most grim way possible.
I had the exact same thought Ven. The Tormentors cannot be a Dread if they are indeed made partly of Light. They were present before the Witness had access to the Light.
And specifically Light from the Pale Heart.
Just like how the latest Pantheon notes state that both Rhulk and Nezarec are considered Dread. Nez is called a Dread, the Prime Tormentor and has an unknown "origin" species. We also know Rhulk was Lubrean but hes considered a Dread now. It goes on to say "created from Rhulks blueprint, Nezarec was the first Tormentor than all others owe their lineage"
I have a theory that the tormentors weren't created intentionally by the witness, since the dread use darkness elements like strand and stasis, it's obvious that they aren't purely made of light, more like a fusion between the light and darkness, but it's not the first time that this happened, when the traveller tried to ward off the witness and it's pyramid by releasing light energy, it unintentionally brought Nezarec back from the dead with a new body, we know that he had a lot of cultists, many of them being psions who could feel his psychic imprint that was left across the solar system even after his death, it's not out of the question that these psions could have followed it's trace to the pyramid where his remains were and died in some way, with their husks later being resurrected as the tormentors, as many of them are simply named "imprint of Nezarec", it could explain their relations with the cabal and their usage of void light, and seeing how effective the tormentors came to be, the witness decided to experiment further with this light and dark fusion in the pale heart, creating the dread
@@Breeze-zb2uu Tormentors were made by the help of Calus clone chambers, thats why the Witness only needed a single piece of him, to mass produce it.
I think they could still hide some truth because here our enemy is the witness and not the winnower. So they could still leave questions unanswered...
I agree 1,000,000% with you YET AGAIN VEN. If all people care about is the story of how we save the big white ball and how the characters of the story interact with each other and how that gets done and defeating the Witness and turning it into a gun, that's perfectly fine. But WHAT I NEED from this story is a reveal of the ACTUAL GARDENER AND WINNOWER. I WANT them to be physical actual characters. I NEED it. It's what has been secretly built up to in the lore over the last DECADE. And if it doesn't happen, I will be SEVERELY underwhelmed and even disappointed with this expansion.
This IS the very end of this over a decade long saga. The big players need to finally be revealed. The big questions need to finally be given answers.
When you say that the witness has never shown interest in us before, I’m assuming you don’t think that the doppelgänger at the end of shadowkeep was the witness? I’ve seen a lot of people comment pretty convincingly on why it is the witness, from his hand motions to his way of talking.
It it’s always shown interest in us as a tool. The ENTIRETY of beyond light was an elaborate mind game to make its side seem palatable and easy to side with. Shadowkeep was a personal invitation. In lightfall WE were its means to an end.
I have seen a theory that that’s actually the widower
You know what? I think I'm going to make a video on this, because the question of the Witness's relationship to us keeps coming up, and I actually think that it's a bit more nuanced than people realize. To give you the most basic answer possible:
My opinion is that SK-BL was the Witness effectively grooming us to get Darkness powers. This happened to not just us but Lisbon's fireteam in the Black Garden as well. But after BL, nothing. The Witness hasn't spoken to us since, and in LF it barely acknowledged us. So what happened?
I think we get the answer from looking at the Dark Future. What happened when Guardians got the Darkness without guidance? The City fell apart from all the infighting. THAT is what the Witness wanted.
The whole point of Elsie in BL, was her making sure we got Stasis with guidance, completely averting the Dark Future. The Witness's plan failed here. That's in my opinion why after BL, the Pyramids don't give us gifts anymore, and treat us like the enemies we are, with the exception of Communion in WQ, where the Europan Pyramid needs us to help it.
That's my "short" take on it anyway.
@@Venextron
I think regarding his lack of interest in us regarding Light fall was intentional?
He always indented to possess the ghost, and use it to connect to the veil. Calus was bait, this is why he connected to the ghost when talking with calus in that one mission.
His lack of interest in us is intentional, apart of the manipulation because we are the center piece. We are the God Killer, The witness has been interested in us for along time and never lost it.
Venextron, This is amazing! I subscribed right away!
The second video confirmed that Tormentors and Subjugators are just clones of Rhulk and Nazerac. So the “made with light and dark” doesn’t apply to them. We may see upgraded versions in the expansion.
For the Tormentor I can only think of one answer/possibility:
A device or storage similar to the Radial Mast. Remember(even though the explanation and story sucked) our Ghost was speaking to us in Calus's Typhus Imperitus, saying that it felt Light of the Traveler from it.
How was Calus able to harbor pure, uncorrupted Light?
23:55 because Essence got blasted by light from the traveler, hell we see the tormentors using void (suppressing n stuff) to body us, and Nezarec has souped up powers, presumably from said blast.
Bungie lowkey sounds like they trying to convince us off a delusion
What if the hands are trying to reach out from within.. some of the ancient races trying to escape..
In terms if how good the animations look, that one animation with the Venom sludge and the feather really strikes me out as maybe Sony did a little helping there. They have done such animations before and I know how hard these fluid animations are, especially if they behave different to what most people know, since it's not actually liquid
I am so ready and so hyped for the final shape no sleeping for me
Venextron, I loved this video so much, I had to hit the like button!
Thank you so much man :)
Maybe light is life, and darkness is death and so when he uses the light, he is just creating vessels to hold the darkness for him. Because he doesn’t have any army available besides the taken and his goal is to make a perfect universe where everything is in its final form pretty much, so he is experimenting trying to create these powerful beings use both light and dark
it seems odd that darkness would be both death *and* mind.
I can’t wait for you to start translating the Pyramid Language 😄
Yeah I think there will be some crazyyy lore involved with their language
The pale heart is a little alien hiding in a stasis pod
And the witness is the last test for the guardians because the witness is disliked by both the winnoner and gardener
Come to think of it and that we really don’t think about it we all already dead and the traveler uses our souls has a seed to use light powers.
You know... Tormentors use Void powers, while being Darkness enemies.
On the subject of the Witness's Light experimenting, I think what we are overlooking is what Rohan died to back in Lightfall; the Radial Mast. I mean, why would the Witness gift Calus a supposed Light Artifact, if we were to believe it's race was a darkness race???
Actually on top of that; how did Calus's Light Suppression devices even worked, if it didn't have known powers to reference off of.
I feel like while the witness feels like it is beyond us, it respects our efforts, hence offering us a seat. I believe the witness is completely ignorant to the idea of failure. Calus’ lines in Lightfall may come to fruition in hilarious fashion
about the last part where u speak about dread psions having the darkness, didnt the psions already have connections to the darkness? Both cause of their abilities related to the mind and the connections they have had with stuff like nezy
not sure if this holds tho
I think there's a difference between connecting to the Darkness in that sense, and using Stasis or Strand. That's just how I see it though. The Psion lore is a bit of a messy area for me.
I am so freaking hyped for this. This season, Bungie has slowly been giving us things we have been wanting for years. We know what Bungie is capable of when their backs are against the wall... And their backs aren't just against the wall. They are literally pinned against the wall. If Bungie wants to continue and thrive. They are gonna have to bring it and go above and beyond. I have no doubt that Bungie is gonna give us a banger. For me, the true test is going to come on day 1 release. Is Bungie gonna hold back on their servers to save money and wait until they are at peak to finally flip the switch. Or are they gonna go all out, balls to the wall and flip the switch on all of their servers from the get-go so that we're not stuck in a que for 2-3 hours. I honestly believe that there are thousands of Destiny players who desperately care about the Gardener and Winnowers origin. Destiny lore is a huge deal with it's player base. Bungie has always gone all out with the lore of Destinys universe and I'm positive we are going to get answers to the important questions we've been asking since D1. I'm sooooo hype for Final Shape. I've been waiting for and wanting answers for years. The Final Shape is going to give me those answers and I can't wait. The stress of waiting for The Final Shape is damn near palatable. You read that right. For me the wait is literally stressful. The Final Shape has been living in my head rent free for a long time now. On a separate note... I'd give anything to work at Bungie. I have so many ideas for Destiny that would sell the game in record numbers. Every idea I have has been influenced by ideas that I have heard from other Destiny junkies. If only we could all get together and bring our ideas to life. I'd love to see a prequel. Imagine playing the first half of the game as a regular human fighting through the fall of the Golden Age and the second half of the game waking up as one of the very first Guardians. Or you could start off as one of the first Guardians. Then halfway through the game, you learn that you were a soldier during the fall of the Golden Age as you play that soldier during flashbacks. It could work. There are Guardians who learn about their past all the time. Either way would be extremely cool. I've been wanting to see the Golden Age in its prime forever. Playing as a soldier during the beginning of it's demise or as one of the very first Guardians seems like a really interesting concept. I've said enough. If you've made it through my entire comment... Bless you. I hope you were at least a little bit entertained. If not I apologize. Destinys universe and lore is my favorite part about Destiny. Reading flavor text and lore book entries is a favorite pass time of mine. I also enjoy watching TH-cam lore channels. Despite Destinys short comings, it has remained as the game I play more than any other ever since the release of Destiny 1. Through the years I have taken small breaks, but I always return. I just love the universe and everything it has to offer. It's so deep and so immersive. It has so much to soak up and learn about. Everything has substance. Not all weapons, armor and vehicles have lore tabs, but so many of them do. Every piece of equipment does have a relevant quote attached to it though. As you can see by my insanely large comment, Destiny is definitely a big deal to me. I could go on and on about my reasons for loving Destiny. The Dreadknot, The Dreaming City... There is so much to love and appreciate. If I don't stop now, I'll continue typing until an error message appears. Now if you've made it this far... You deserve to be paid for your time. Hopefully it wasn't wasted. If it was, then I am truly sorry that my passion for Destiny interrupted your day. I'm serious. I apologize for wasting your time. Thank you for reading, have a wonderful day and hopefully we will meet in game to kill some Taken, Vex and all the other baddies of Destiny.
So honestly I think the gardener and winnoner are going to be players and we will see them but I think the witness is going to be the main focus and after the witness we will have a ideological battle between the two with the winnoner and the gardener coming up here and there but we as guardians are the people who will prove either gardener or winnoner right or do something beyond what both thought and prove them both right and wrong
I want to see cayde come back and his story with crow but I also want to know what’s in the traveler
The Witness would be a more interesting character if he is made to be a pawn of the Winnower rather than having his own autonomy.
Hey ven, just a question. Did you look at the soundtrack leaks for final shape ? Dont know if you look at leaks or not but they have some interesting soundtrack names.
what if... and hear me out... the witness is more related to the gardener than the winnower?
or at least follows it's philosophy of the hatred of death?
the winnower seems to be described as an agent of change, and while that change eventually leads to nothing, it was beautiful.
it seems to be the one who would nudge a river to see the effects of a flood
the witness, however, clearly desires stagnation.
I dont think its goal is the death of everything, but simply the cessation of change itself. freezing reality as a perfect piece of art, with no blemishes or flaws.
Great job
As far as hype goes, I’m a bit excited about everything we’re getting in FS. BUT the story needs to be better than WQ AND TAKEN KING AND FORSAKEN COMBINED. The story of FS will determine the future of Destiny 2 and if it will continue regardless of the episodes.
I actually think it will be better than the last three expansions. It's just about the answers they give, that's really what it all comes down to.