Watch Byf's video! th-cam.com/video/Q-o3EMFFBWA/w-d-xo.htmlsi=v9ojc72YBQ5Qd7VD Also check out his new Advanced.gg flavour! "Lore Daddy's Lullaby" advanced.gg/?ref=LoreDaddy
I’m from Byf’s side of things, and checked out your Winnower video before his when he shouted you out. I really appreciated your extra work in that video, and what you touched on here, which is something other lore channels don’t really do: providing context and media analysis and not just reading the lore and its implications to explain WHY some of the story seems extremely incongruous.
Its crazy how before Byf published his video, you were nearly at 5k subs. At the time of writing this, you're very nearly at 6k. Much love to everyone who has stopped by from both Byf's video and for those who have stumbled upon Venextron's channel 😊
@@jacobcollier4223 Its good to have you here! Its been awesome seeing Byf react to other lore creators and comment on their videos. Last one I saw was him commenting on one of eforme's videos. I hope you're having a good day/night and hope to see you in the Discord or in the comments of another vid in the future
12:03 At some point Mara says something along the lines of “the Light is my mother, and the Dark is my father.” Along with that, in the Deep Stone Crypt’s Titan Mark lore tab, the feminine, motherly figure speaking with Saint says that his foolhardy behavior is “just like your father”. I’m pretty sure this, alongside the concept art, is why some people have decided to refer to Winnower by male pronouns.
@acgearsandarms1343 true, but at the end of the day, even the Gardener and Winnower are analogies for more complex things we just can't truly understand anyway. What's one more metaphor that the lore itself leans into sometimes? Case in point, from Unveiling; "They chewed at their cracked lip, which existed only because this is an allegory." ** We did not live. We existed as principles of ontological dynamics that emerged from mathematical structures, as bodiless and inevitable as the primes. "They learned those rules, because they were those rules." Etc, etc.
@@acgearsandarms1343 I definitely think it may have been in Mara's case, but putting it alongside the other instances, such as feminine figure referring to Saint as "Like his father", I think it lines up.
@@UltraRisen Not saying it isn’t, just Mara’s because the context she said it was when in talking to what was apparently Toland in response to his question.
Here is something I just realized after playing the final season mission. In d1, the ghost said in the presents of the black heart. That it was a place beyond both space and time, after we were brought back to our reality. Maybe there is a point in there
Hearing the excitement in your voice as you’re so clearly rewarded by Byf’s recognition of your work is awesome and infectious. Your reactions have had a smile across my face since I started this video. I’m very excited to see the work you do in the future, keep it up, you rock.
I think the flow of events goes as follows. Originally, the darkness was pure evil. Planted seeds for the “big bad” of the Darkness, that being the Winnower. Bungie wanted to make darkness a usable ability, so it couldn’t be pure evil any more. Had to change the villain from essentially the god of the darkness, to a powerful being that uses darkness.
To add to your ideas with calus, from what I remember, he spoke to a voice at the end of the universe while he was still on the leviathan and they told him about a concept very, very similar to the sword logic and then he held onto the idea of being the last one standing so he tried to seek out this voice using the glycon. Calus then finds the witness and becomes a disciple but I still believe he was searching for the winnower instead. From what I remember, this lore about the voice he heard is from menagerie dialogue and also bits of season of opulence lore. Calus has always been a character I loved and I’ve been trying to piece together this story of how he went from an emperor who talks to the winnower to becoming the witnesses puppet.
I'm honestly so glad, that Byf introduced me to your channel, your content is really well done (especially that winnower video but also in general). I especially enjoy your humor, and vibe in the videos. I am really looking forward to watching future content of yours, and hearing your interpretations of it (even if I don't necessarily 100% agree with all of them, but that's lore, everyone has their own interpretations, and the best way to learn is to discuss the lore with other people and listen to their opinions).
Just as I thought to myself, "ok I'm stumbling down a lore rabbit hole here. I dont wanna over-analyze the lore and give myself skewed expectations for the narrative of The Final Shape. Time to take a break", I see this in my sub feed. Ok, I guess one more wont hurt.
The winnower video you made is exactly what made me subscribe. It was an absolute fascination to listen to and I love all the deep connections that were made to every notch of the lore. Cannot wait for you to cover the final shape lore (and hopefully that launch trailer *wink wink nudge nudge*)
Came from Byf, stayed for the banger vid. Byf was the first channel I came across that really explained what was going on in the story when I started during Forsaken. Now I’m so heavily invested in the lore and I’m happy I found your channel. You’re awesome bro keep it up.
33:00 This part got me thinking. We know the Traveler has its Pale Heart, and I would consider that a different dimension, even though that’s not confirmed at all. What if the taken are being moved to the Veil’s dimension
Regarding presage, what does Calus trying to summon the voice in the darkness into a mortal vassal sounds like? Could it be that calus tried to do with the scorn what Oryx dead with the Ogre in the books of sorrow 4:1 and 4:2 ? The circumstances seem way to similar to just be a coincidence.
45:30 We are the spears that ring the gentle city. We are the complexity of the bomb logic with how we both use light and dark and fight alongside many different species.
Like a number of others, I found your video through Byf. Some of the things you pointed out in differences between the Witness and the Winnower I had noticed as well through love of the lore, but a number of your revelations, and even just connections drawn between things, were stunning to me. And hearing how excited you are reacting to Byf's video was a joy to listen to. You're right that his video was more concise which is probably attributable to him having been doing this for much longer, so I wouldn't take that as a critique of your own skills. The fact that you pieced this together is incredible, and you should be really proud of it! I'm going into the final shape feeling stronger than ever that the Winnower and Gardener are actual entities of some fashion, and will be disappointed if that has been retconned out entirely.
Callus has some weird stuff I feel like between presage and also when he was exiled. When he was exiled and looked into the abyss I feel like that was the Winnower but during presage I feel he had made contact with the witness or was intercepted by it.
Was so happy to be recommended to your channel by Byf! Great content, and I'm always looking for more lore videos. Plenty of space for everyone! Much deserved recognition!
While it is true that the Witness speaks to its Disciples with cold detachment, that isn't always the case. It is fully capable of using manipulative sweet-talking to get potential recruits to join up. It did so with Rhulk in Shattered Suns, it did so with us during the end mission of Shadowkeep and during the story missions of Season of Arrivals, it did so with Mara before and during Witch Queen, and it's going to be doing so with Zavala in The Final Shape if the launch trailer is anything to go by. Hell, we see it doing this with Calus in Lightfall. When Calus steps out of his coffin thing into his throne room, the Witness shows up and say "You have everything you want, Emperor," as a means to keep Calus compliant. And I honestly do believe that the Witness was the one that spoke to Calus on the Glykon because it matches with the Witness' tactics of seeking out the physically and/or emotionally/mentally broken to be Disciples.
I'm very much exited for Final Shape, of course for all the answers we may or may not get, but outside of those my main theory of mine that I've had for years that I hope is validated, is that the Ahamkara are related to/made by the Traveler. And with that snippet of Pale Heart gameplay of the Ahamkara Remains in a Strike/Mission, makes me think I'm right in my theory.
Senpai noticed you! I say that in the best way, I'm loving your content and Byf pointed me in your direction and you deserve the attention even if you didn't get his shout out, but I'm glad he did because that lead me to you.
To add a comment, I kinda think that with how the lore book is worded, with The Gardener and Winnower becoming "rules" in their Flower Game, I'm kind of wondering if they're the Light and Darkness. Literally. Like, they -became- these two paracausal forces, which we use, and that the Witness is using to bring about its version of the Final Shape.
I still think it’s very possible that the book was written with these two deities being a metaphor for the light and darkness. I think the only reason we truly believe the Winnower is real, is because past characterizations of the big bad of the darkness no longer fits the current vision of the Witness.
So the conversation about Prismatic and us being the new rule that changes the game of flowers made me think about something. When the Traveler was with other species were there Guardians there? Were there Eliksni Guardians? If not are we the Gardeners last attempt to create the new rule?
I love your content and your enthusiasm man. It’s honest and super refreshing. Just awesome stuff. Wish I’d have known about you a long time ago. No worries tho. Playing back through your older stuff now. I hope we get a destiny 3 just I can listen to more stuff from you lore masters.
I love that you and Byf both watch each other for more perspectives, both of you are doing an amazing job to bring all of this insane stuff into video form. I really like you two working together so much
So glad you're getting the exposure you deserve. Me and my friends are now fully on board with your theories on the gardener and winnower. Big fan and a subscriber since the big unveiling video showed up on my recommended. Keep up the great work. Really hope we get to see the winnower in the final shape and that your theories come true
I remember watching your Winnower videos back in the day and thinking, “finally someone who really gets it and figured it out. I hope Byf sees this some day. This goes beyond anything I hoped for. I’m so happy for you. Ultimate redemption.
the new precursor lore implies the vex were originally the computers the precursors used as prediction engines to help run their society. pretty sure that conflicts with their other origins (Crota cut into ascendant space and they spilled out from there) (Clovis figured out they're from a radiation-blasted planet and evolved naturally) (They came from the Black Garden when the Gardener and Winnower fought, and fell into our universe in the form of a quantum self-sustaining pattern that evolved into life, and then into machines) but it's probably what they've settled on at this point since it's most relevant to the story of the new DLC
@@xXx_Regulus_xXx one thing is for sure. The reference by the Sol divisive towards the witness as "Anomaly" is spooky. Even more when they seem to refer to us as a 'Majestic' thorn. To winnow was their reaction to the whole event inside the garden. Lastly, the planting of the seed and it transforming into the black heart coupled with the Osiris lore page makes it seem that the black heart really only served to corrupt the vex.
@@xXx_Regulus_xXx Kabr stopped them in the Vault of Glass, but what did he start? while joined( Glass, Sky ) case Past: return( i m p o s s i b l e ) // grazing, rocked, major, distilled. case Present: return( v e s t i g i a l ) // vault, aegis, awakened, infinite. case Future: // return( i n e v i t a b l e ) // light, truth, dark. if( t h e w a r d e n s s e e t h e BRIGHT a s d e a t h ) && ( t h e THINKERS e q u a t e BLACK w i t h e n d ) then ^K^K their/our/their desire is not malevolent it is survival she is/was/is wrong there is no evil there is no despise there is no SEPARATION there is harmony inside if you/you/you allow it it was/was/was not done i/i speak again and was wrong i am still him and i am now them and THAT IS FUTURE^V^V
I like both videos and all of the lore videos in generel which motivates me to comment and speculate myself about these topics, even if i knoew way less than you guys. So thank you for that! I think when it comes to the garden and the Gardener and the Winnover, there is one detail that is in my opinion worth mentioning because it could lead to other details. The garden before time with all of it's flowers reminds me of Bhuddas view of the universe in Bhuddism, for Bhudda the universe was shaped like a flower and so all stars and living beings within. I don't remember if in the tale of the Gardener and Winnover, every flower resembles a universe but since the description in Bhuddism referes to the universe and planets, it could fit the narrative in Destiny 2. The flowers in the garden look similar to Spider Lilies which are a symbol for loss and grief, i don't know if they always looked like that or later after the conflict between the Winnover and the Gardener. But Spider Lilies would make sense if the Gardener is affected by grief because of her creation being destroyed and consumed. The Tree of Silver Wings, if we stick with Bhuddism could have the same role as the Bhodi Tree in Bhuddism which was the tree where Bhudda found enlightment and Nirvana. Also Silver has different meanings in different religions. In Christianity it is a symbol for purity and clarity while in Bhuddism it refers to the moon and balance. The symbol of the Silver Wings Tree could be the balance between the Gardener and Winnover. But their conflict created an unbalance which could be started by the Winnover disagreeing with the Gardener about the new rule. It's destruction as a result of their conflict could destroy the fabric of harmony, balance and clarity which would explain why the theme of grief especially in the previous expansions. Also the tree helped the gardian to regain a new power or aspect if i remember correctly which would be a reference of the Bhodi Tree bringing enlightment. The gardian in my opinion as someone who combines light and dark could fit a similar role to the tree, keeping some sort of balance. I would go so far and think that the guardion, our character is the final shape and maybe the Witness kinda knows this that's why they want to recruit the guardian as their member because the guardian caan finalize the final shape. Since colors are important i think maybe for the final power which is Prismatic, it's color is pink which in multiple popcultures and relegions it's the symbol of harmony, love and balance. It also combines dark and light powers which would foster the guardians role it the story. Pink and silver share some similarity is what kind of meaning they have but pink also has one more meaning which is different from silver and this is love. I don't want to go the cliche route and say loves saves the day but love which causes positive and negative emotions could be the main source to end the flower game and conflict. Love is also very dominant in the story, Zavalas love to his wife, Uldren Sov learns to love himself and the Vagabund and Eris developing more feelings for one another. I think it's way deeper than what i described but i think some of it could be true to some extend in another more nuanced way.
I love the pure joy of his reaction upon seeing his channel on screen in Byf's video. I too came from his, pretty much soon as he said "go watch his first" I gobbled up your vid. Fantastic work man!
I think what makes me excited about the Winnower/Gardener is that their existence would essentially validate the notion that we've been experiencing a massive story that has been taking almost 10 years to reach its arc. Granted this story has been unfolding in the background of the main events but that's also what adds to how awesome it is. Because the Final Shape feels like it could be the moment in the story where the "real story" is about to be brought up front for the first time. It makes reading the lore for the past 9-ish years feel like a big pay off.
No basis in lore, but just interesting. The Winnower's Final Shape seems reflects itself. Unsurprising that the other answer reflects the Gardener. I also think the exact answer the Gardener AND Winnower intended has changed. We now have a bunch of people wielding both Light and Dark acting as living proof that the goals of those beings are compatible, that a single dominant pattern can emerge without destroying the complexity around them by their nature. Fitting that they call themselves Guardians then.
Best knot to tie Winnower and Gardener with Witness and Traveler would be the Winnower and Gardner to have ALWAYS been present via the Light and Dark. The Light and Dark are the binary paracasual forces driving both the actions of the Traveler and Witness, the Pale Heart will continue to be after FS, so how can we have the Light fully restored? Answer: the Traveler or "Great Machine" is not the source of the Light, the Gardener, who exists outside the tangible reality, is and uses the Traveler as a medium just as the Winnower used the Shadowkeep ball as its medium. I feel best way for Bungie to respect the prior writers would be to confirm that the Gardener and Winnower exist as living concepts, like if math had the conscious capacity of a human, and the Light, Dark, Strand, Stasis, Solar, etc. are the tendrils or at least physical shadows of these abstract sentience's. I mean Unveiling was all about the order before the tangible universe first developed PHYISCAL form.
Bob! glad to see you still around. I'm not 100% certain on your theory being canon but personally I prefer this. We mortals wouldn't experience the G&W as beings, they're too far above us, so we experience them as paracausal forces instead. Beings who are highly attuned to the forces or are directly created by them become their agents inside the flower game/universe like the Traveler.
It shook me when Byf revealed the garden before time may be the Black Garden. Namely, it’s been staring us in the face all this time: the mesa at the center of the Black Garden, it looks just like a tree stump!
43:22 go back to the destiny 1 first ever venus and mars reveal trailer. look for my comment timestamp. i think thats the same person and i think it actually is the gardener. its the same voice, just aged by 9 years and more gain and echo i guess..?
the part with the black garden got me really confused. I thought everyone knew that the black garden is what the unveiling was referring to. and the stump was the original tree of silver wings. byf talks like he found out today and it's really weird to me.
*Quick comment before watching:* After watching byfs video, it got me thinking. It season of the deep, we learned that the witnesses race saw "the truth" in the darkness. Perhaps the witness sees the flower game as endless conflict, regardless of light or dark. One will keep creating, and one will keep destroying. Endless suffering that the witness believes we need to be saved from.
Honestly, I part of me always thought the Witness and the Winnower were different ppl. From Oryx communing with the Deep and the fact his name is “The Witness” gave me pause. Plus how things been interpreted by the lore up to now. I always looked at the Traveler as like a King on a chessboard being moved by the actual player. With the introduction of Witness I felt the same. I think the cutscene for the witness further confirmed that. But I have a different idea of the veiled statue bc of the new trailer. I have multiple thoughts of the veiled statue and 1 is that it’s the gardener with a covering. A type of covering that controls or corrupts her with darkness. With the traveler basically holding her powers so the deep can’t use it. Or the veil is the depiction of ascending from the perspective of the deep. Especially since both ideals are actually aligned. They want strength to live but can’t agree on the way to go about it. OR the veiled statue IS both the winnower and the gardener (split personalities) and it was all one being all along.
the chessboard thing is basically how I always saw it too, especially since the universe is the Flower Game. to the actual players, everything including all the characters are just bits moving around on a flat board. Light and Dark exist to spice the game up and make it more complex.
@@xXx_Regulus_xXx exactly my thoughts. I just hope they make the lore of it a cutscene of some sort or a hologram transmission. I don’t like when they put big lore behind armor tabs. Lore books are cool but I think the finding should be verbal/ visual and the books to further explain.
I came back to d2 earlier this year and channels like yours are some of the reasons I have had such an incredible time playing destiny recently. Thanks a lot for the cool content man, hope theres much more to come in these months after final shape releases.
My only disagreement was the same as your's regarding not expecting both the gardener and winnower showing up next week primarily because the collectors edition specifically calls out the Winnower by name. They haven't brought up that name directly since the unveiling to my knowledge so for them to specifically name drop right before the expansion tells me that I should expect them to at least touch on this storyline.
26:02 I think the witness doesnt want to tell anyone it's final shape, because it is the one thing that gives the witness its moral superiority. Previous lor book about the precursor race suggested that maybe the fact that the "witness race" got blessed by the light made them arrogant, considering themselves above all. In the end of another Byf's vid, he mentioned how the precursor race, prior to merging into the witness, have some doubts about their cause. Part of the merging was to erase all doubts, erase all individuality, and focus on the horde's mission: to assert its superiority, its dominance, its definition of the final shape on the whole universe.
I believe that Unveiling is a book written from the precursor (HNW) who got away. It saw RS’s method to prevent suffering as antithetical to the natural law of the universe. The Gardener is probably a precursor as well. The three precursor factions mentioned in the Entelechy book along with the three queens parables (one with just law, one with a grand tower, one with a vast army) makes me believe that there’s always been a third entity in this war and it’s not just light and dark. I’ve always been positive that Final Shape will show the one above light and dark.
I've had exactly same thought since Savathun said about the line between light and darkness in season of the lost in the end of BL. She said "If you ever want to see what's been watching you since the very beginning just stand on that line, and look up..."
great video I love your content. I think there is an even simpler explanation as to why the Winnower is not the Witness. Based on Unveiling the Winnower has had conversations with the Gardener. As far as we know the Witness and Traveler has never spoken. The Witness was created after the Traveler left the Precursors. Also, in Unveiling it reads "[the Winnower and Gardener] existed, because they had to exist. They had no antecedent and no constituents." Unless Unveiling has been indeed retconned, then it's all a mess and we know nothing.
Also, regarding the vision at the end of Shadowkeep being from the Witness... look at what they say. ----"Don't you recognize us? We are not your friend, we are not your enemy. We are your Salvation." Then, look at what Ahsa said... ----"Having witnessed the truth in the Darkness, they used its binding power to merge themselves...into the SALVATION they craved." It's interesting to look at it as-- the Witness literally stating there are 2 other entities outside of itself. Friend=Gardener Enemy=Winnower
love that you're getting attention from byf, I found you're video just through the algorithm, it was thew winnower video, immediately subbed, and then a couple days later I see a byf winnower video, and then an evaze video, and so on. idk feels like they ripped your work. don't want to stir the pot tho.
Firstly, thank for your original video! It is really mind blowing! Secondly, I have a question: is the Vex are some kind of sap or juice of the original Tree of Silver Wings? Cause this stump in the Black Garden looks like the source of radiolaries.
I wanted to share my thoughts on The Guardians being able to wield both Light and Dark. And additionally give a theory me and a few friends created in a group call. The Winnower and The Gardener represent two sides of a coin. Light and Dark, Seeder and Reaper, one believes that the universe should have a greater capacity at growth while the other believes in its simple but true philosophy, the weak will die and the strong will live. The Gardener and Winnower didn't see eye to eye and fought. This then led to them to creating the current game we now play as the Guardians, the story of Destiny is this new flower game where The Gardener and Winnower both play as a set piece. The Gardener using the Traveler as a machine that sows, seeds and gifts to those it believes are worth and capable of growth while the Winnower cuts down the chaff and grinds it to bits, further emphasizing its simple philosophy. Every time the Traveler blessed a civilization, it opposed the Winnowers ideology. When it was then confronted by the Witness in an attempt to link it to the Veil, It fled, every time. Leaving the people it blessed to be cut down. Countless civilizations we crushed. However, when it comes to humanity. The Traveler stayed and fought back. Why? Why would it fight back when all it previously did was flee? What makes humanity so special that Traveler risked its life in trying to save humanity? In the Unveiling lorebook the Winnower refers to us as "Majestic, Majestic." And says that we are "...full of the only thing that matters." The Gardener sacrificed itself to save us, and if it is to be believed, The Gardener used its sacrifice to create an argument. This argument isn't truly understood as it hasn't been clearly stated. The Winnower sees something in humanity as Majestic, something that it sees as special. With the Winnower only ever referring to itself and its Final Shape as Majestic, this makes me believe that we are inherently linked to Winnower. With the Gardener having created the Ghosts and thus the Guardians, humanity was reborn in the Light, now having been reforged and linked to the light. Now that we are linked to both Light and Dark it is clear that humanity is special in that sense. With the Winnower and Gardener both seeing humanity as special, what will be the outcome? My and a few friends discussed this extensively. A friend of mine proposed an idea: We as the Guardians wield both Light and Dark, we have both sides of the coin, and so he believes we as the Guardians are the equilibrium. Both sides of the coin... Or the coin itself. In him saying that it reminded me of when Savathun said that "the ability to move worlds will soon be yours." I then mentioned that if we are both sides of the coin and wield both Light and dark, wouldn't that allow us to create our own Final Shape? This got us thinking. I then remembered a death message. While not concrete I believe it could be of interest. "Killed by the Architects", a death message only showing when you fall of a cliff and essentially krilling thyself. If this theory is to be believed that would make humanity a force unlike the Gardener and the Winnower. A being that can wield both Light and Dark. The coin, the equilibrium. We could be an Architect of the universe, The Final Shape. A being that has proven itself to be worthy enough to Transcend the flower game. Just a theory though :3
32:40 so you might be right because the Witness tends to favor Scorn and Wrath born. I feel like the Taken are more darkness oriented and the aligned the with the Deep/Winnower
Even though byf is the big channel in the room, it's cool he shouts out the smaller channels when he gets a chance. Psalm labs, moonvald(ithink) evaze, myelin, and Venextron, of course. The market isevade, wide open for channels to grow should destiny keep going. Here's to you venextron and ur growth to 10k & beyond
Yo you and Byf by far are my favorite lore masters. You both hit some many points i discuss with my friend who dont play the game but follow my playing of the game
Thinking more about it has me stuck with trying to figure out who the cutie is depicted in the pyramid ships. So far I have 2 running theories: 1- it's a depiction of the Gardener and her being veiled (heh) by the veil 2- it's a depiction of the winnower. The Gardener is often associated with the Traveler and thus the light. The light is the physical and material parts of reality. She has a physical form. The Winnower is often depicted as the darkness. The Deep. The immaterial and forces that warp perception, perspective, and bend reality. Maybe they don't have a form and the cloaked figure is just a representation? Maybe they are the veil/shroud? I dunno. But I find it to be a great mystery. I'm leaning towards the statues are representations of the Winnower and that she is the one who truly controls the darkness, the black fleet, and the taken. Not the Witness. She is the one tempting us. She is the one who pushes towards and empowers factions seeking conquest rather than cooperation. She prefers sword logic, but any end to the pattern achieved through violence is an acceptable shape.
I watched Byfs video first but when he said to check out your video to get the greater context of where he was coming from, that's what I did. Watched your video then subscribed instantly. Keep up the good work!
Also I don’t know if you saw it on your winnower video if the gardener is growth change etc and winnower is basically Darwinism then how do we as guardians prove which side is right because we proved our strength by killing crota oryx riven etc but we have also proven our growth by breaking multiple certain futures finding strand etc
Destiny has the inverse to the bionicle problem, which gets us roughly the same outcome. One writer for ten years vs 20 stepping on eachothers toes. We come to the same weird inconsistencies.
one of my favorite fantasy authors, Brandon Sanderson, keeps somebody on his payroll specifically to check the continuity of his big multiverse. I think more writers could benefit from that
One more question I know the worm gods hive etc serve the deep why do we see worm god larva in pyramid ships like in the worm grenade launcher can the witness make larvae or is it just accessing them
they've been a project for the Witness and Rhulk for a long time. They took the proto-worms like Ahsa, turned them into Worm Gods, and have been experimenting on their offspring for millions of years. Rhulk likes trophies and the Witness ultimately wants everything still and unchanging so they keep a few samples encased like that.
The old destiny lore and unveiling feels a lot like the original ideas for starwars how there were these cosmic beings called celestial aeons and there was actually a creator god who made everything. And similarly some of these ideas were somtimes referenced or even shown in stw legends especially in the comics.and if destiny dosent abandon the old lore and in fact connects everything together. It will be similar to last book of stw legends that came out like a year ago (star wars supernatural encounters if anyone is curious) it connects everything from even the original ideas like the aeons and the creator god and explains everything that exists in starwars its like the silmarillion of starwars. I hope the same happens with destiny.
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Watch Byf's video! th-cam.com/video/Q-o3EMFFBWA/w-d-xo.htmlsi=v9ojc72YBQ5Qd7VD
Also check out his new Advanced.gg flavour! "Lore Daddy's Lullaby" advanced.gg/?ref=LoreDaddy
You did one hell of a job man. Be proud
I’m from Byf’s side of things, and checked out your Winnower video before his when he shouted you out. I really appreciated your extra work in that video, and what you touched on here, which is something other lore channels don’t really do: providing context and media analysis and not just reading the lore and its implications to explain WHY some of the story seems extremely incongruous.
Its crazy how before Byf published his video, you were nearly at 5k subs. At the time of writing this, you're very nearly at 6k. Much love to everyone who has stopped by from both Byf's video and for those who have stumbled upon Venextron's channel 😊
Not even an hour after I posted this comment, you hit 6k. Congrats dude!
When byf posted his video and said go watch venex's first, thats when I came over
@@jacobcollier4223 Its good to have you here! Its been awesome seeing Byf react to other lore creators and comment on their videos. Last one I saw was him commenting on one of eforme's videos. I hope you're having a good day/night and hope to see you in the Discord or in the comments of another vid in the future
@@SolvedAlloy3942 He's surpassed 6.5k now, that number's just gonna keep on going up and up.
Now he's almost 7k currently!
12:03 At some point Mara says something along the lines of “the Light is my mother, and the Dark is my father.”
Along with that, in the Deep Stone Crypt’s Titan Mark lore tab, the feminine, motherly figure speaking with Saint says that his foolhardy behavior is “just like your father”. I’m pretty sure this, alongside the concept art, is why some people have decided to refer to Winnower by male pronouns.
“For starlight was my mother, and my father was the dark.” Not the capital L and D Light and Dark so I think it’s metaphorical.
That but most importantly,things that we belive to be the winnower (the deep oryx call ect)uses He
@acgearsandarms1343 true, but at the end of the day, even the Gardener and Winnower are analogies for more complex things we just can't truly understand anyway. What's one more metaphor that the lore itself leans into sometimes?
Case in point, from Unveiling; "They chewed at their cracked lip, which existed only because this is an allegory."
** We did not live. We existed as principles of ontological dynamics that emerged from mathematical structures, as bodiless and inevitable as the primes.
"They learned those rules, because they were those rules."
Etc, etc.
@@acgearsandarms1343 I definitely think it may have been in Mara's case, but putting it alongside the other instances, such as feminine figure referring to Saint as "Like his father", I think it lines up.
@@UltraRisen Not saying it isn’t, just Mara’s because the context she said it was when in talking to what was apparently Toland in response to his question.
Here is something I just realized after playing the final season mission. In d1, the ghost said in the presents of the black heart. That it was a place beyond both space and time, after we were brought back to our reality. Maybe there is a point in there
Hearing the excitement in your voice as you’re so clearly rewarded by Byf’s recognition of your work is awesome and infectious. Your reactions have had a smile across my face since I started this video. I’m very excited to see the work you do in the future, keep it up, you rock.
I think the flow of events goes as follows.
Originally, the darkness was pure evil.
Planted seeds for the “big bad” of the Darkness, that being the Winnower.
Bungie wanted to make darkness a usable ability, so it couldn’t be pure evil any more.
Had to change the villain from essentially the god of the darkness, to a powerful being that uses darkness.
To add to your ideas with calus, from what I remember, he spoke to a voice at the end of the universe while he was still on the leviathan and they told him about a concept very, very similar to the sword logic and then he held onto the idea of being the last one standing so he tried to seek out this voice using the glycon. Calus then finds the witness and becomes a disciple but I still believe he was searching for the winnower instead.
From what I remember, this lore about the voice he heard is from menagerie dialogue and also bits of season of opulence lore.
Calus has always been a character I loved and I’ve been trying to piece together this story of how he went from an emperor who talks to the winnower to becoming the witnesses puppet.
I'm honestly so glad, that Byf introduced me to your channel, your content is really well done (especially that winnower video but also in general). I especially enjoy your humor, and vibe in the videos. I am really looking forward to watching future content of yours, and hearing your interpretations of it (even if I don't necessarily 100% agree with all of them, but that's lore, everyone has their own interpretations, and the best way to learn is to discuss the lore with other people and listen to their opinions).
Just as I thought to myself, "ok I'm stumbling down a lore rabbit hole here. I dont wanna over-analyze the lore and give myself skewed expectations for the narrative of The Final Shape. Time to take a break", I see this in my sub feed. Ok, I guess one more wont hurt.
The winnower video you made is exactly what made me subscribe. It was an absolute fascination to listen to and I love all the deep connections that were made to every notch of the lore. Cannot wait for you to cover the final shape lore (and hopefully that launch trailer *wink wink nudge nudge*)
Came from Byf, stayed for the banger vid. Byf was the first channel I came across that really explained what was going on in the story when I started during Forsaken. Now I’m so heavily invested in the lore and I’m happy I found your channel. You’re awesome bro keep it up.
33:00 This part got me thinking. We know the Traveler has its Pale Heart, and I would consider that a different dimension, even though that’s not confirmed at all. What if the taken are being moved to the Veil’s dimension
Regarding presage, what does Calus trying to summon the voice in the darkness into a mortal vassal sounds like? Could it be that calus tried to do with the scorn what Oryx dead with the Ogre in the books of sorrow 4:1 and 4:2 ? The circumstances seem way to similar to just be a coincidence.
When the Lore Daddy notices a fellow lore master: “Salutations fellow scholar”!
Why does he wear make up tho
@omensoffate who?
Its like that interaction between Mara Sov and Scribe Eido where Mara compliments Eido on how impressive her work is.
@@omensoffate What? Also, why does it matter?
45:30 We are the spears that ring the gentle city. We are the complexity of the bomb logic with how we both use light and dark and fight alongside many different species.
Like a number of others, I found your video through Byf. Some of the things you pointed out in differences between the Witness and the Winnower I had noticed as well through love of the lore, but a number of your revelations, and even just connections drawn between things, were stunning to me. And hearing how excited you are reacting to Byf's video was a joy to listen to. You're right that his video was more concise which is probably attributable to him having been doing this for much longer, so I wouldn't take that as a critique of your own skills. The fact that you pieced this together is incredible, and you should be really proud of it! I'm going into the final shape feeling stronger than ever that the Winnower and Gardener are actual entities of some fashion, and will be disappointed if that has been retconned out entirely.
I started Byf’s video, heard the shout out, and came over to watch yours first. Subbed. Great content.
Callus has some weird stuff I feel like between presage and also when he was exiled. When he was exiled and looked into the abyss I feel like that was the Winnower but during presage I feel he had made contact with the witness or was intercepted by it.
The black garden silver wings stump also blew my mind
Was so happy to be recommended to your channel by Byf! Great content, and I'm always looking for more lore videos. Plenty of space for everyone! Much deserved recognition!
While it is true that the Witness speaks to its Disciples with cold detachment, that isn't always the case. It is fully capable of using manipulative sweet-talking to get potential recruits to join up. It did so with Rhulk in Shattered Suns, it did so with us during the end mission of Shadowkeep and during the story missions of Season of Arrivals, it did so with Mara before and during Witch Queen, and it's going to be doing so with Zavala in The Final Shape if the launch trailer is anything to go by. Hell, we see it doing this with Calus in Lightfall. When Calus steps out of his coffin thing into his throne room, the Witness shows up and say "You have everything you want, Emperor," as a means to keep Calus compliant. And I honestly do believe that the Witness was the one that spoke to Calus on the Glykon because it matches with the Witness' tactics of seeking out the physically and/or emotionally/mentally broken to be Disciples.
I'm very much exited for Final Shape, of course for all the answers we may or may not get, but outside of those my main theory of mine that I've had for years that I hope is validated, is that the Ahamkara are related to/made by the Traveler. And with that snippet of Pale Heart gameplay of the Ahamkara Remains in a Strike/Mission, makes me think I'm right in my theory.
Senpai noticed you! I say that in the best way, I'm loving your content and Byf pointed me in your direction and you deserve the attention even if you didn't get his shout out, but I'm glad he did because that lead me to you.
To add a comment, I kinda think that with how the lore book is worded, with The Gardener and Winnower becoming "rules" in their Flower Game, I'm kind of wondering if they're the Light and Darkness. Literally. Like, they -became- these two paracausal forces, which we use, and that the Witness is using to bring about its version of the Final Shape.
Great point
I still think it’s very possible that the book was written with these two deities being a metaphor for the light and darkness. I think the only reason we truly believe the Winnower is real, is because past characterizations of the big bad of the darkness no longer fits the current vision of the Witness.
I'm honestly surprised how your channel is not much bigger. Ever since I ran into your channel a while back you have been Lore Dad
I think the final shape launch trailer has given a whole lot of validity to your theory, given the certain figure that shows up.
So the conversation about Prismatic and us being the new rule that changes the game of flowers made me think about something. When the Traveler was with other species were there Guardians there? Were there Eliksni Guardians? If not are we the Gardeners last attempt to create the new rule?
I love your content and your enthusiasm man. It’s honest and super refreshing. Just awesome stuff. Wish I’d have known about you a long time ago. No worries tho. Playing back through your older stuff now. I hope we get a destiny 3 just I can listen to more stuff from you lore masters.
Ps. Yup on the going to sleep listening lol.
a leak came out not long ago that strongly suggests we'll get a destiny 3. supposedly it's been in the works for ~2 years, look up Project Payback
I love that you and Byf both watch each other for more perspectives, both of you are doing an amazing job to bring all of this insane stuff into video form. I really like you two working together so much
So glad you're getting the exposure you deserve. Me and my friends are now fully on board with your theories on the gardener and winnower. Big fan and a subscriber since the big unveiling video showed up on my recommended. Keep up the great work. Really hope we get to see the winnower in the final shape and that your theories come true
I remember watching your Winnower videos back in the day and thinking, “finally someone who really gets it and figured it out. I hope Byf sees this some day.
This goes beyond anything I hoped for. I’m so happy for you. Ultimate redemption.
Brass Gardeners Venex...you gotta get to that one man. I cannot be bugging with how it reads and ive been so lost how others have missed it.
the new precursor lore implies the vex were originally the computers the precursors used as prediction engines to help run their society. pretty sure that conflicts with their other origins (Crota cut into ascendant space and they spilled out from there) (Clovis figured out they're from a radiation-blasted planet and evolved naturally) (They came from the Black Garden when the Gardener and Winnower fought, and fell into our universe in the form of a quantum self-sustaining pattern that evolved into life, and then into machines) but it's probably what they've settled on at this point since it's most relevant to the story of the new DLC
@@xXx_Regulus_xXx one thing is for sure. The reference by the Sol divisive towards the witness as "Anomaly" is spooky. Even more when they seem to refer to us as a 'Majestic' thorn. To winnow was their reaction to the whole event inside the garden. Lastly, the planting of the seed and it transforming into the black heart coupled with the Osiris lore page makes it seem that the black heart really only served to corrupt the vex.
THANK YOU!!!!!!!
@@xXx_Regulus_xXx Kabr stopped them in the Vault of Glass, but what did he start?
while joined( Glass, Sky )
case Past:
return( i m p o s s i b l e )
// grazing, rocked, major, distilled.
case Present:
return( v e s t i g i a l )
// vault, aegis, awakened, infinite.
case Future:
// return( i n e v i t a b l e )
// light, truth, dark.
if( t h e w a r d e n s s e e t h e BRIGHT a s d e a t h ) &&
( t h e THINKERS e q u a t e BLACK w i t h e n d ) then
^K^K
their/our/their desire is not malevolent it is survival she is/was/is wrong there is no evil there is no despise there is no SEPARATION there is harmony inside if you/you/you allow it
it was/was/was not done i/i speak again and was wrong i am still him and i am now them and THAT IS FUTURE^V^V
It's refreshing to see a content creator be so humble and thankful
I like both videos and all of the lore videos in generel which motivates me to comment and speculate myself about these topics, even if i knoew way less than you guys. So thank you for that!
I think when it comes to the garden and the Gardener and the Winnover, there is one detail that is in my opinion worth mentioning because it could lead to other details. The garden before time with all of it's flowers reminds me of Bhuddas view of the universe in Bhuddism, for Bhudda the universe was shaped like a flower and so all stars and living beings within. I don't remember if in the tale of the Gardener and Winnover, every flower resembles a universe but since the description in Bhuddism referes to the universe and planets, it could fit the narrative in Destiny 2.
The flowers in the garden look similar to Spider Lilies which are a symbol for loss and grief, i don't know if they always looked like that or later after the conflict between the Winnover and the Gardener. But Spider Lilies would make sense if the Gardener is affected by grief because of her creation being destroyed and consumed.
The Tree of Silver Wings, if we stick with Bhuddism could have the same role as the Bhodi Tree in Bhuddism which was the tree where Bhudda found enlightment and Nirvana. Also Silver has different meanings in different religions. In Christianity it is a symbol for purity and clarity while in Bhuddism it refers to the moon and balance. The symbol of the Silver Wings Tree could be the balance between the Gardener and Winnover. But their conflict created an unbalance which could be started by the Winnover disagreeing with the Gardener about the new rule. It's destruction as a result of their conflict could destroy the fabric of harmony, balance and clarity which would explain why the theme of grief especially in the previous expansions. Also the tree helped the gardian to regain a new power or aspect if i remember correctly which would be a reference of the Bhodi Tree bringing enlightment.
The gardian in my opinion as someone who combines light and dark could fit a similar role to the tree, keeping some sort of balance. I would go so far and think that the guardion, our character is the final shape and maybe the Witness kinda knows this that's why they want to recruit the guardian as their member because the guardian caan finalize the final shape. Since colors are important i think maybe for the final power which is Prismatic, it's color is pink which in multiple popcultures and relegions it's the symbol of harmony, love and balance. It also combines dark and light powers which would foster the guardians role it the story. Pink and silver share some similarity is what kind of meaning they have but pink also has one more meaning which is different from silver and this is love. I don't want to go the cliche route and say loves saves the day but love which causes positive and negative emotions could be the main source to end the flower game and conflict. Love is also very dominant in the story, Zavalas love to his wife, Uldren Sov learns to love himself and the Vagabund and Eris developing more feelings for one another.
I think it's way deeper than what i described but i think some of it could be true to some extend in another more nuanced way.
I love the pure joy of his reaction upon seeing his channel on screen in Byf's video. I too came from his, pretty much soon as he said "go watch his first" I gobbled up your vid. Fantastic work man!
I think what makes me excited about the Winnower/Gardener is that their existence would essentially validate the notion that we've been experiencing a massive story that has been taking almost 10 years to reach its arc. Granted this story has been unfolding in the background of the main events but that's also what adds to how awesome it is. Because the Final Shape feels like it could be the moment in the story where the "real story" is about to be brought up front for the first time. It makes reading the lore for the past 9-ish years feel like a big pay off.
No basis in lore, but just interesting. The Winnower's Final Shape seems reflects itself. Unsurprising that the other answer reflects the Gardener. I also think the exact answer the Gardener AND Winnower intended has changed. We now have a bunch of people wielding both Light and Dark acting as living proof that the goals of those beings are compatible, that a single dominant pattern can emerge without destroying the complexity around them by their nature.
Fitting that they call themselves Guardians then.
Best knot to tie Winnower and Gardener with Witness and Traveler would be the Winnower and Gardner to have ALWAYS been present via the Light and Dark. The Light and Dark are the binary paracasual forces driving both the actions of the Traveler and Witness, the Pale Heart will continue to be after FS, so how can we have the Light fully restored? Answer: the Traveler or "Great Machine" is not the source of the Light, the Gardener, who exists outside the tangible reality, is and uses the Traveler as a medium just as the Winnower used the Shadowkeep ball as its medium. I feel best way for Bungie to respect the prior writers would be to confirm that the Gardener and Winnower exist as living concepts, like if math had the conscious capacity of a human, and the Light, Dark, Strand, Stasis, Solar, etc. are the tendrils or at least physical shadows of these abstract sentience's.
I mean Unveiling was all about the order before the tangible universe first developed PHYISCAL form.
That would work and make sense if the Black Garden and the tree of silver wings didnt exist in physical form
Bob! glad to see you still around. I'm not 100% certain on your theory being canon but personally I prefer this. We mortals wouldn't experience the G&W as beings, they're too far above us, so we experience them as paracausal forces instead. Beings who are highly attuned to the forces or are directly created by them become their agents inside the flower game/universe like the Traveler.
I'm happy for you. Your excitement and enthusiasm is infectious.
I stopped Byf's vid and came to watch yours, subbed and honestly top tier content. Wishing you all the best and some well earned success ❤
It shook me when Byf revealed the garden before time may be the Black Garden. Namely, it’s been staring us in the face all this time: the mesa at the center of the Black Garden, it looks just like a tree stump!
Glad to see your getting the credit you deserve bro. Your lore takes and breakdowns have changed my perspective on the lore.
I 100% about being disappointed. damn fucking right. Finally a lore youtuber with fucking balls
I’ve been waiting to see your thoughts! This is gonna be a great video.
Hope that you get more exposure as time goes on!
What we do know now is that those statues will mean something
43:22 go back to the destiny 1 first ever venus and mars reveal trailer. look for my comment timestamp. i think thats the same person and i think it actually is the gardener. its the same voice, just aged by 9 years and more gain and echo i guess..?
Congrats brother, you deserve the recognition! Keep on keeping on.
the part with the black garden got me really confused. I thought everyone knew that the black garden is what the unveiling was referring to. and the stump was the original tree of silver wings. byf talks like he found out today and it's really weird to me.
I agree like what else is the black garden supposed to be lmfao
*Quick comment before watching:* After watching byfs video, it got me thinking. It season of the deep, we learned that the witnesses race saw "the truth" in the darkness. Perhaps the witness sees the flower game as endless conflict, regardless of light or dark. One will keep creating, and one will keep destroying. Endless suffering that the witness believes we need to be saved from.
Honestly, I part of me always thought the Witness and the Winnower were different ppl.
From Oryx communing with the Deep and the fact his name is “The Witness” gave me pause. Plus how things been interpreted by the lore up to now. I always looked at the Traveler as like a King on a chessboard being moved by the actual player. With the introduction of Witness I felt the same. I think the cutscene for the witness further confirmed that.
But I have a different idea of the veiled statue bc of the new trailer. I have multiple thoughts of the veiled statue and 1 is that it’s the gardener with a covering. A type of covering that controls or corrupts her with darkness. With the traveler basically holding her powers so the deep can’t use it.
Or the veil is the depiction of ascending from the perspective of the deep. Especially since both ideals are actually aligned. They want strength to live but can’t agree on the way to go about it.
OR the veiled statue IS both the winnower and the gardener (split personalities) and it was all one being all along.
the chessboard thing is basically how I always saw it too, especially since the universe is the Flower Game. to the actual players, everything including all the characters are just bits moving around on a flat board. Light and Dark exist to spice the game up and make it more complex.
@@xXx_Regulus_xXx exactly my thoughts. I just hope they make the lore of it a cutscene of some sort or a hologram transmission. I don’t like when they put big lore behind armor tabs. Lore books are cool but I think the finding should be verbal/ visual and the books to further explain.
Some of Byf’s video was word-for-word the same as yours. Glad you guys collaborated. Both videos were great.👍
I came back to d2 earlier this year and channels like yours are some of the reasons I have had such an incredible time playing destiny recently. Thanks a lot for the cool content man, hope theres much more to come in these months after final shape releases.
My only disagreement was the same as your's regarding not expecting both the gardener and winnower showing up next week primarily because the collectors edition specifically calls out the Winnower by name. They haven't brought up that name directly since the unveiling to my knowledge so for them to specifically name drop right before the expansion tells me that I should expect them to at least touch on this storyline.
26:02 I think the witness doesnt want to tell anyone it's final shape, because it is the one thing that gives the witness its moral superiority. Previous lor book about the precursor race suggested that maybe the fact that the "witness race" got blessed by the light made them arrogant, considering themselves above all. In the end of another Byf's vid, he mentioned how the precursor race, prior to merging into the witness, have some doubts about their cause. Part of the merging was to erase all doubts, erase all individuality, and focus on the horde's mission: to assert its superiority, its dominance, its definition of the final shape on the whole universe.
I believe that Unveiling is a book written from the precursor (HNW) who got away. It saw RS’s method to prevent suffering as antithetical to the natural law of the universe. The Gardener is probably a precursor as well. The three precursor factions mentioned in the Entelechy book along with the three queens parables (one with just law, one with a grand tower, one with a vast army) makes me believe that there’s always been a third entity in this war and it’s not just light and dark. I’ve always been positive that Final Shape will show the one above light and dark.
I've had exactly same thought since Savathun said about the line between light and darkness in season of the lost in the end of BL. She said "If you ever want to see what's been watching you since the very beginning just stand on that line, and look up..."
@@amsalamander7521 oh man you're right! exciting possibilities
Never thought of this but this is great. We have a perfect candidate for an author of this book that isn’t the Witness.
9:40 All of us are the Hive Mind Bungie didn’t expect.
great video I love your content. I think there is an even simpler explanation as to why the Winnower is not the Witness. Based on Unveiling the Winnower has had conversations with the Gardener. As far as we know the Witness and Traveler has never spoken. The Witness was created after the Traveler left the Precursors. Also, in Unveiling it reads "[the Winnower and Gardener] existed, because they had to exist. They had no antecedent and no constituents." Unless Unveiling has been indeed retconned, then it's all a mess and we know nothing.
I'm so proud to have been here from your first big video about the Gardener and the Winnower.
Also, regarding the vision at the end of Shadowkeep being from the Witness... look at what they say.
----"Don't you recognize us? We are not your friend, we are not your enemy. We are your Salvation."
Then, look at what Ahsa said...
----"Having witnessed the truth in the Darkness, they used its binding power to merge themselves...into the SALVATION they craved."
It's interesting to look at it as-- the Witness literally stating there are 2 other entities outside of itself.
Friend=Gardener
Enemy=Winnower
Been waiting for the collab! Awesome!
11:52 the whole Mara sov speech of “my mother was the starlight and father was the dark” adds to this notion, though not directly of course
love that you're getting attention from byf, I found you're video just through the algorithm, it was thew winnower video, immediately subbed, and then a couple days later I see a byf winnower video, and then an evaze video, and so on. idk feels like they ripped your work. don't want to stir the pot tho.
Discombobulation is SUCH a great word. ❤
Loremaster Byf seems like a considerate guy.
Cant wait for you to talk about the new trailer they dropped, and your winnower video really opened up a lot of things so thank you!
Firstly, thank for your original video! It is really mind blowing!
Secondly, I have a question: is the Vex are some kind of sap or juice of the original Tree of Silver Wings? Cause this stump in the Black Garden looks like the source of radiolaries.
I never thought of that!
Byf x Venextron gotta be the best ship Destiny has ever to offer ❤
4.74k subs in the recording and 5.96k at the time of this comment. Let's goo!!
I wanted to share my thoughts on The Guardians being able to wield both Light and Dark. And additionally give a theory me and a few friends created in a group call.
The Winnower and The Gardener represent two sides of a coin. Light and Dark, Seeder and Reaper, one believes that the universe should have a greater capacity at growth while the other believes in its simple but true philosophy, the weak will die and the strong will live.
The Gardener and Winnower didn't see eye to eye and fought.
This then led to them to creating the current game we now play as the Guardians, the story of Destiny is this new flower game where The Gardener and Winnower both play as a set piece.
The Gardener using the Traveler as a machine that sows, seeds and gifts to those it believes are worth and capable of growth while the Winnower cuts down the chaff and grinds it to bits, further emphasizing its simple philosophy.
Every time the Traveler blessed a civilization, it opposed the Winnowers ideology. When it was then confronted by the Witness in an attempt to link it to the Veil, It fled, every time. Leaving the people it blessed to be cut down. Countless civilizations we crushed.
However, when it comes to humanity. The Traveler stayed and fought back. Why? Why would it fight back when all it previously did was flee? What makes humanity so special that Traveler risked its life in trying to save humanity?
In the Unveiling lorebook the Winnower refers to us as "Majestic, Majestic." And says that we are "...full of the only thing that matters."
The Gardener sacrificed itself to save us, and if it is to be believed, The Gardener used its sacrifice to create an argument. This argument isn't truly understood as it hasn't been clearly stated.
The Winnower sees something in humanity as Majestic, something that it sees as special. With the Winnower only ever referring to itself and its Final Shape as Majestic, this makes me believe that we are inherently linked to Winnower.
With the Gardener having created the Ghosts and thus the Guardians, humanity was reborn in the Light, now having been reforged and linked to the light.
Now that we are linked to both Light and Dark it is clear that humanity is special in that sense. With the Winnower and Gardener both seeing humanity as special, what will be the outcome?
My and a few friends discussed this extensively. A friend of mine proposed an idea: We as the Guardians wield both Light and Dark, we have both sides of the coin, and so he believes we as the Guardians are the equilibrium. Both sides of the coin... Or the coin itself.
In him saying that it reminded me of when Savathun said that "the ability to move worlds will soon be yours." I then mentioned that if we are both sides of the coin and wield both Light and dark, wouldn't that allow us to create our own Final Shape?
This got us thinking. I then remembered a death message. While not concrete I believe it could be of interest. "Killed by the Architects", a death message only showing when you fall of a cliff and essentially krilling thyself.
If this theory is to be believed that would make humanity a force unlike the Gardener and the Winnower. A being that can wield both Light and Dark. The coin, the equilibrium.
We could be an Architect of the universe, The Final Shape. A being that has proven itself to be worthy enough to Transcend the flower game.
Just a theory though :3
32:40 so you might be right because the Witness tends to favor Scorn and Wrath born. I feel like the Taken are more darkness oriented and the aligned the with the Deep/Winnower
Ithought that hill at the end of the raid was a mountain, Isee that it is definitively a stump, my mine is blown how did so many miss that?
Even though byf is the big channel in the room, it's cool he shouts out the smaller channels when he gets a chance. Psalm labs, moonvald(ithink) evaze, myelin, and Venextron, of course. The market isevade, wide open for channels to grow should destiny keep going. Here's to you venextron and ur growth to 10k & beyond
speaking of Evaze, I think him and Venextron would make a good duo for some sort of collab if they both are interested
Saw this video before Byfs. Instant subscription. Humble, polite, and a great voice. New Channel to take a nap to on repeat viewings. Keep it up!
Your channel is such a great find, real breath of fresh air
Amazing job!!
I never would have imagined that you’d get a shout out from Byf. Congrats man!!
Yo you and Byf by far are my favorite lore masters. You both hit some many points i discuss with my friend who dont play the game but follow my playing of the game
Thinking more about it has me stuck with trying to figure out who the cutie is depicted in the pyramid ships. So far I have 2 running theories:
1- it's a depiction of the Gardener and her being veiled (heh) by the veil
2- it's a depiction of the winnower. The Gardener is often associated with the Traveler and thus the light. The light is the physical and material parts of reality. She has a physical form. The Winnower is often depicted as the darkness. The Deep. The immaterial and forces that warp perception, perspective, and bend reality. Maybe they don't have a form and the cloaked figure is just a representation? Maybe they are the veil/shroud?
I dunno. But I find it to be a great mystery.
I'm leaning towards the statues are representations of the Winnower and that she is the one who truly controls the darkness, the black fleet, and the taken. Not the Witness. She is the one tempting us. She is the one who pushes towards and empowers factions seeking conquest rather than cooperation. She prefers sword logic, but any end to the pattern achieved through violence is an acceptable shape.
Ven getting excited about byf is like getting a backslap from saint 14 or a compliment from cayde still best character in destiny
I watched Byfs video first but when he said to check out your video to get the greater context of where he was coming from, that's what I did. Watched your video then subscribed instantly. Keep up the good work!
Also I don’t know if you saw it on your winnower video if the gardener is growth change etc and winnower is basically Darwinism then how do we as guardians prove which side is right because we proved our strength by killing crota oryx riven etc but we have also proven our growth by breaking multiple certain futures finding strand etc
I'd love to see Venextron's answer to this
Glad to be here mate, keep up the good work!
Picturing Bill Hader going “UhHuhhhhhh! Uh Huh!” At 23:10. 😂
That Byf. He's a good dude. And so are you sir. I really love your stuff. Keep it up. We'll be here.
Destiny has the inverse to the bionicle problem, which gets us roughly the same outcome. One writer for ten years vs 20 stepping on eachothers toes. We come to the same weird inconsistencies.
one of my favorite fantasy authors, Brandon Sanderson, keeps somebody on his payroll specifically to check the continuity of his big multiverse. I think more writers could benefit from that
All of this makes me so happy. For moments like this I love Destiny and being, to my ability, part of this community. 🥳🥳🥳
One more question I know the worm gods hive etc serve the deep why do we see worm god larva in pyramid ships like in the worm grenade launcher can the witness make larvae or is it just accessing them
they've been a project for the Witness and Rhulk for a long time. They took the proto-worms like Ahsa, turned them into Worm Gods, and have been experimenting on their offspring for millions of years. Rhulk likes trophies and the Witness ultimately wants everything still and unchanging so they keep a few samples encased like that.
The old destiny lore and unveiling feels a lot like the original ideas for starwars how there were these cosmic beings called celestial aeons and there was actually a creator god who made everything. And similarly some of these ideas were somtimes referenced or even shown in stw legends especially in the comics.and if destiny dosent abandon the old lore and in fact connects everything together. It will be similar to last book of stw legends that came out like a year ago (star wars supernatural encounters if anyone is curious) it connects everything from even the original ideas like the aeons and the creator god and explains everything that exists in starwars its like the silmarillion of starwars.
I hope the same happens with destiny.
Seeing you get the shoutout from byf was so dope
Saw Byf's vid, subscribed because of the quality of your vids. Keep it up bro :)
Plot twist: He is not the winnower anymore because he became one with mostly all his people. She is still the Gardener though
Much love scholar! I saw your videos months ago and was slandered for sharing it. I'm glad those buffoon are silent now lol
Let's go love to see you finally getting more recognition
I've been watching you since before Lightfall. I'm really glad to see you getting your name out there. Your work is amazing and so engaging.
I subbed because of byf's video. You make great content, keep it up!!
Just subbed. Watched your video because of Byf. Excellent content-keep it up!
I’m a long time byf watcher. Thank you for making my day with this info and this story
I have listened to The Truth unveiling, many times, cuz I love the lore, and the way its read in that vid, sound editing was fire as well.
The voice in the trailer sounded like Lakshmi to me, so my guess is that it’s Maya Sundaresh, or one version of her
U gained a new fan, is there a video where you discuss entelechy ??