You say you're not an expert but you're probably as expert as most people are likely to cross paths with. It looks like you did exactly what anyone would do to prove the hypothesis and provide the service of showing us the results. Thanks.
Thanks for watching bud, I will be discussing this on my livestream this evening I will be going live on TH-cam this evening 1/6/19 @ 5:PM (pacific time) to discuss my most recent uploads and answer questions from videos comments, emails and Facebook comments. Also we will be chatting in Discord before the stream here is the discord link >>>>discord.gg/j8eyfC2
It is an insult to many people. You have a lot of sophisticated equipment but you are lacking the most important ingredient and that is "KNOWLEDGE". Please don't public these stupidity! ! !
R290 is far more efficient than most refrigerants today. You need less of it with lower compression ratio. It's the future. Weighing it in is kind of tricky. Obtaining r290 is harder since it can't be delivered via truck or plane due to flammability. I had to order some on eBay. Please do a video running regular propane through a couple filter driers and load it into a 290 system and see what happens. I'd watch that one for sure.
LG used compressors designed for R600 in their 134a residential fridges and had a massive issue on their hands. With 134a operating at double the pressure and roughly double or triple the charge of R600; we were experiencing rampant compressor failures. We have since learned that the failure point was of the internal compressor check valves eventually blowing out. Samsung also used improper compressors in their first R600 system used in America and redesigned that system to be replaced with 134a using a new evaporator and new compressor. I don't work commercial, but R290 is an isobutane/ propane mixure just like R600 is. This was unique to see someone else try what some of us residential guys have already experienced. Keep up the good work!
I should note that R600 systems will typically run -10psi low side and roughly 50psi on the high side. Standard 134a machines will operate at similar pressures you showed in the video at 30psi low and roughly 100psi high
R290 is not a mixture. It's propane. R600a / R290 mixtures is e.x. www.boconline.co.uk/en/products-and-supply/refrigerant-gases/natural-refrigerants/care30/care30.html which is similar to R134a
Uhhhh, hate to be picky but R-290 is straight propane (C3H8) and R-600a (isobutane) is a tee shaped structural isomer of straight butane (R-600, C4H10). None of these are blends. But good comment otherwise 👍 (I put a tremendous amount of effort into 3 years of college chemistry, not trying to be a beeotch 😉)
@@sinistersparky9657 interesting to learn. I was under the impression that the iso portion of the isobutane was indicating it was a blend. Multiple manufacturers of home refrigeration products have explained it to be that way. If you're correct, and I have no reason to believe you arent, then thank you for clarifying.
@@J00bles right on bud - Wikipedia has a good picture of both structures here: en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butane Normal butane (n-Butane) is a zigzag shape while isobutane is a tee or star shape... this is a fairly accurate model of what each molecule looks like but I digress lol 🤓👨🏻🔬 Still a great post bud, chemistry ain't easy... notice I said 3 years and not 4... I'm a dropout 🙃🤯🤑
Great experiment! Always great learning adventures when experimenting. R290 has roughly double BTU capacity over our normal refrigerants. That's why tubing is so small, doesn't need to circulate as much refrigerant compared to normal refrigerants. As you proved, it won't work.
Years and years ago I worked at Koch Refrigeration in Kansas City, Kansas and spent a lot of time with the engineers learning about how to set up refrigeration. Actually, you are only partially correct about switching from R290 (propane) to R134A. It takes about 4-8 times more R134 than R290 to achieve the same cooling because of the temp efficiency of the R290. If you replaced the condenser with a parallel flow unit the R134 would have worked much better. However, it is cheaper to make tube and fin than parallel flow so HVAC unites are set up that way. Also, R134A is very peculiar/finicky about the charge. One ounce over or under will kill the cooling. Takes an engineer to really measure the required charge. There is no danger to the unit from the switch as the compressor will run either refrigerant with the same oil.
I will vouch for this in the automotive sense. I have a 2002 mercedes that had alot of the a/c system replaced besides the evap core and compressor. Charged up, would cool fantastic, drive down the road and it'll shut on and off. Pulled some from the system (maybe 1 or .5 oz. If that its been a while) system felt just as cool, stayed running at a constant at speed or idle and would honestly fog the windows up on a summer day.
Used R290 cleaned, as an R22 replacement for R22, crude, but cooling is BRILLIANT, better than R22, units have been running for 4 years. zero problems Heating on reverse cycle is very OK, but a little slower than R22. I clean BBQ propane from bottle to bottle with silica gell, a filter dryer, old fridge compressor, heat sink - fan cooled, everything works perfectly. Hope this gives you some info - it works. Thank you!
I was the head of quality control at airgas specialty products for a few years, if you used Aspen brand refrigerants that was me. In the lab, we would test refrigerants on a gas chromatograph and R290 has roughly twice the thermal conductivity of a chlorinated/fluorinated refrigerant, which is definitely why the condenser coil is smaller on an r290 unit. R290 is also roughly half the weight by volume of R134, so 113 grams of R290 is about the same volume as 230 grams of R134a, so both of your observations are on point with this unit. And yes, you are right, those systems are absolutely designed differently and won't be right if refrigerant is changed. R290 has some very good qualities as a refrigerant, excercise some safe work practices and you should be fine.
@@mikepict9011 if you go from 134a to r290 then yes on the blanket because of the better thermal conductivity, but going from 290 to 134 you would need to go the other way and make the condenser bigger. Swap to an R22 txv and yes it could work, in theory
I did this experiment a few years ago with a r290 whynter 12/24vdc 115vac chest freezer I found on the side of a boat ramp with 0psig. Found a leak and brazed it (after nitro sweep and 500 mic EVAC, of course). Almost doubled the charge with r134a. Had very similar results as you: no sc and low sh. Swapped the 12vdc fan for a higher cfm unit and slowly pulled a few grams out until it was happy. She's been rocking at -8 degrees ever since. Not exactly sure what the final charge was because I was thoroughly drunk by the time I got done. Seriously considering replicating it again and recording the actual weight. My current project is converting an atlas wdf-2 ice cream dipping cabinet to run on 12vdc with a sikelan qdzh65g. Pray for me 🤣
I have a old 80's model refrigerator that was manufactured with r12 I put 134a in it about 5 years ago and it is still working perfect I use it for a garage refrigerator
You experiment was well worth it the time to watch, I am not a refrigerant coolant designer but the first thing that came to mind was the word densities, more targeted the density of Gas. The two gases and their properties are totally different and as Mike H said it, R134A has a finite window for working or not working. it is like a ham radio operator trying to adjust its HF antenna to talk to Cubans. Anyway so greatful for this channel and youtube as a means to help each other out. I found that after 15 years, my copeland compressor went bad and was not because of any body mixing any gases and not purging the old ones out. It went out due to moisture. One of the pipes in the inverter went out and the system kept running for some reason until the low level tripped it off. Then moisture and its age, i believe it had been been there since the 90s overheated and there it went. When I cut it open it had black oil and the compressor on the outside was black as in black ash or dirt and then I learned that mixing R134a and R410a can do that.
Excellent video, sir. First thing to popped in my mind this is new hvac mythbuster ! 🤣 I’ve seen a lot of people said replaced R290 with 134A or 404A but your experiment is showing different. Appreciate for your time to share this one with us. Thank you Chris 👍
Is the oil compatible with other refrigerants ? Is the power head on the TXV compatible ? It becomes a re-engineering nightmare ,I have been there many times .
Chris, this is a spot on video....this is exactly the proof that you cant just use any system with any refrigerant....systems are specifically designed for use with certain temps, pressures, and efficiency. I've had moronic ideas early in my education to use the wrong refrigerant when the easy way looks soooo good. Thank you for the real word application and hopefully you've helped another "super tech" from a badd mistake....J
Had old Chrysler used 12 added flammable gas when gas not available later 134 never pumped out never changed oil needed 1/2 can yearly had a parts car always worked ..
I tried the same experiment a few months back on a different brand cooler with totally positive results. My evap superheat and subcooling were very normal. In my opinion, the earlier units were just 134A systems converted to Propane for the government mandate. However, your Delfield may be a re-engineered piece being optimized for propane.
Wow awesome experiment I wanted to thank you and putting to rest all those tales that it will work with 134a but for how long. All in all great way of showing not to put a gas that was not designed to be put in that particular piece of equipment. Thank you.
My wife would kill me if I had to scrap a double wide stand up freezer. On the other hand, this was really neat to watch and see your thought processes as you performed the experiment. Thank you for the experiment and this video!
I converted one to R404a for capacity, six months ago, amps were good, head pressure was high, I charged it by the best air TD across the evap. It got down to temp and shut off nicely. I think next one I'll try R407f ,for capacity and lower head pressure. Possibly change the 6 watt condenser fan motor with a 9 watt. On TH-cam I watched a video of a guy's house refrig blew up, I'm concerned about these r290 units when they age and blow up in a restaurant and the customer yelling that you were the last one to work on it 8 months ago. My gut feeling is 290 is a fad and won't be around in 5 years because of the danger and fire damage and lawsuits. As the compressors fail I'll replace them with R407f or R404a compressors
Yeah time will tell how they work out for sure, honestly I'm not afraid of them but if someone doesnt follow the proper procedures of purging with nitro before brazing they could get a surprise! Thanks for watching Jim and taking the time to leave a comment....... by the way I'm a fan and miss your videos!
Mr Pettinato, please get back on youtube. We all miss you. Your experience and knowledge is still very valuable to be shared with the community, and your savy and wisdom is greatly needed by all the techs.
The way that was, compressor failure is a definite! The immediate thing you should notice is that the compressor is flooded with refrigerant and the hi side pressure is low. Expansion valve is flooding, MAYBE you can adjust it down which will increase the PD at the valve? Maybe not. My bet is that R404A would give better pressures. There's very little available from the manufacturers for sure, so experimentation is all we got.
I've worked with r290 with ice cream freezers for a couple years In my opinion r290 is much closer to R404A than R134A. Allthough I did try r404A in a r290 system once, the compressor burnt out in a day, possibly because I didn't know what I was doing... In my opinion there is no point in using any other refrigerant in a r290 system because: -R290 is cheap -R290 is enviromentally friendly - You can charge a leaking system and be cool with it. A small (really small, so small you cant find it) leak will not burn the building, also the charges in R290 systems are way smaller yet as efficient than other systems. -No other refrigerant will work in these systems without modifying the system, and honestly I don't see the point to modif
I finally heard the correct word. Efficiency. It is not particularly dangerous. I have swapped between several different refrigerants. Just mind your pressures.
From uour experiment, it clearly demonstrates that R-290 is not a drop-in replacement for R-134a or vice versa. That compressor, based on what you were saying about its temperature and floodback conditions, will fail due to loss of lubrication from the refrigerant washing it out. That is only one of the problems that the metrics you illustrated in this video reveal. Thanks for the video!
Thanks for watching bud, I will be going live on TH-cam this evening 1/6/19 @ 5:PM (pacific time) to discuss my most recent uploads and answer questions from videos comments, emails and Facebook comments. Also we will be chatting in Discord before the stream here is the discord link >>>>discord.gg/j8eyfC2
In PR where knowledge and tools are not present...we do this on every r.290. never had calls back. It works fine. At least in tropical areas... Hate to say it. But this is what I have to do to survive.
Thanks for doing this. I can be nit picking sometimes but I think you are a EXCELLENT tech. Dont mess with R-290 if your not trained. Watch TRUE MFG vids on how to handle R-290.
Im trying to figure out your caution? Propane is handled daily by untrained people vented with non smoking people standing just 2ft away? the bleeder device vents roughly what this guy in the video placed inside his machine 18oz before the untrained shut off the filler and closes the vent on the bottle. this is done billions of times daily..by untrained people and kids 16 years old. i mean dont go NUTZO on caution...even housewives can safely pump gas in their cars.....Have faith.......r-290 will keep our food cold.
I have used 134a on some cap system, that used R600, similar to 290. I only read a few comments below not sure if anyone mentioned it. As long as you can achieve adequate pressures a 134a system runs about low side 0psi and 125 on high side, the other problem that may occur is the oils in the compressor R134a used an ester oil so switching refrigerant and metering devices if need may get unit cooling but, I think you would eventually get a compressor failure.
That's such a nice fridge, it makes me sad that the owner wanted it "disposed of" in that nice condition. What was their reason? The liquid density of R134A is a lot more than R290 so it can't be compared by mass. Your experiment really proved this. Also would expect it would reduce the system cooling capacity by a lot since the pressures for R134A are lower than those for R290. This affects the necessary surface area in the condenser to transfer the heat. With a lower pressure refrigerant, you will need more surface area to transfer the same amount of heat energy, so when lowering the pressure you would need larger tubing in the condenser to transfer the heat. The compressor for R290 would have less volume displacement per horsepower than one for R134A as well. If you were to get the system working with R134A (with proper superheat and subcooling) the compressor would not be able to use its full motor power. If you were to install a TXV for R134A (or re-calibrate the existing one) the superheat numbers would look better, but as said, the actual system capacity would be dramatically reduced. The compressor and expansion valve are not correct for R134A, period. I run into scenarios like this when restoring antiques from the 1920's and 1930's where they used exotic and unavailable refrigerants, where we have to adapt and overcome, and make the system work with modern alternatives. It's a challenge for sure and requires a lot of research and engineering. But it's not the same as trying to put a wrong refrigerant into a modern unit in a professional environment. I just don't understand why someone would consider using R134A for R290 when R290 is so easy to obtain. It seems really dumb!!! Plus R134A is a phase-out gas so we are trying to move away from that anyway. They are not thinking clearly and are making a big step in the wrong direction, and ending up stepping in a massive cow patty in the process! Thanks for your time to make this experiment and show the results, I really enjoyed this video!
May be "contamination" inside etc. So you may never know (and he's probably not willing/allowed to share). He was just referring to the refrigeration system I think.
@@RubenKelevra There's no telling. I've had people who factor into their business model replacement equipment every so many years. The cost of spoilage of whatever is stored there might outweigh the cost of replacement units. There are a lot of reasons, especially if the fridge is used in industry other than food service.
You didn't add 3 times the gas but only 2 times the gas. 113 grams of r290a is 2.5 moles of refrigerant 510 grams of r134a is 5 moles of refrigerant. These gases have very different molecular weights. 44 g/mol vs 102 g/mol. At a set temp and pressure which both exist as 100% gas 44g of 290 will occupy the same volume as 102g of 134a.
thanks for the chem.lesson, compressor capacity can be stated by how many pounds of refrigerant it pumps per hour &the type of refrigerant.the most safe & efficient refrigerant still is r-718. lol.
@@triedntruefitness Not sure how you can classify R718 as efficient, but it's certainly safe. I have half a kilogram of the stuff every morning for breakfast and I'm perfectly healthy.. ;)
No no no, that is completely wrong. I used to believe the same thing but molar mass is irrelevant in a refrigeration system. It represents the amount of molecules available to react with a given reagent. Refrigeration systems work mechanically there is no chemical reaction taking place, only changes of state. The molar density is irrelevant in a refrigeration system, what you need to look at are physical densities vs temperature and refrigerant state(liquid or gas). The density change from liquid to gas can vary immensely between refrigerants. Here’s a real world example: the gaseous density of R-134a at 10F is 9.23 kg/m3 vs R-290 which at the same temperature is 6.087 kg/m3. In the gaseous phase at that temperature r-134a is 152% more dense than r-290. That gaseous phase is going to begin with a liquid which has an altogether different density. Liquid density of r-134a at 10°F is 1334.1 kg/m3 vs r-290 which at the same temperature is 550 kg/m3. As a liquid at that temperature r-134a is 224% more dense. Two times the weight of the refrigerant is correct(approximately) and molar density has nothing to do with that. You need to look a saturation-temperature table, not molar density.
Another more extreme example is r-764 vs r-12. As a liquid at 10° r-764 is 1467.3 kg/m3 vs r-12 1437 kg/m3 which is a 2.2% difference with r-764 being more dense. Change it to a gas at that temperature and now r-764 is 2.78 kg/m3 whereas r-12 is 10.15 kg/m3. That is a 365% difference in density as a gas for a refrigerant that has almost the same liquid density(and was more dense as liquid but significantly less dense as a gas) and is approximately half the molar density, hence why it is irrelevant.
Her in the Philippines we have a costumer who have a Chinese made double glass door freezer and need to repair. This is r290 refregaretor. The issue of this unit is not cooling and according to the technician, compressor has been damaged. So our boss suggested it to change r134a compressor from r290 compressor. Almost 20 days still working.
Playing engineer never pays off ! I have done that for years ,Converting water cooled to air cooled and vice versa ,Converting a used 40 ton ammonia evap condenser to a glycol cooler for all the water cooled units in a dairy queen restaurants and building dx heat pumps for residential homes with my patent and rock drilling to install the ground coils ,and supermarket refrigeration innovations . Keep your life simple !
I totally agree I'm not trying to re invent the wheel, I will be discussing this on my livestream this evening I will be going live on TH-cam this evening 1/6/19 @ 5:PM (pacific time) to discuss my most recent uploads and answer questions from videos comments, emails and Facebook comments. Also we will be chatting in Discord before the stream here is the discord link >>>>discord.gg/j8eyfC2
Thanks, I will be going live on TH-cam this evening 1/6/19 @ 5:PM (pacific time) to discuss my most recent uploads and answer questions from videos comments, emails and Facebook comments. Also we will be chatting in Discord before the stream here is the discord link >>>>discord.gg/j8eyfC2
The real question for me would be can you use r290 on a 134a system? I wonder If changing the filter drier and installing the right metering device would be enough
Nice experiment. R290 weighs approximily the half off r134a , so the “correct” charge should be 2x 113 gram = 226 grams. R290 uses different oil and tests showed that a normal overheat causes the oil to boil out off the compressor. To prevent this they introduced an extra high overheat! to make the system work. This small system most likely uses a capillair as a injection to the evaporator and the lenght is especialy calculated. That’s why it won’t work for R134a. Grtz from the Netherlands.
R290 can actually work with POE oil too and this system has a txv already, the problem was that the entire system was too small for the R-134a to work. I will actually be discussing this video on my Livestream this evening I will be going live on TH-cam this evening 1/6/19 @ 5:PM (pacific time) to discuss my most recent uploads and answer questions from videos comments, emails and Facebook comments. Also we will be chatting in Discord before the stream here is the discord link >>>>discord.gg/j8eyfC2
i been charging those r290 for years now 30 above ambient of r290 chart been working great did 100s of uints now usually look lower then r22 pressures. controlers and txv outlet leaking only problems been having on them so far.
Man, the problems with evap and condenser temp and other is VERY EASY decidable! Just need to close litle bit your txv valve ( or to replace capillary tube with smaller )and evap temp will go low to target temp, condenser temp will rise to target too ! I did that many many times few years and all , i mean ALL comercial fridges and freezers are still working WITHOUT any problems !
R134A systems use R134A. R404A systems use R404A. R290 systems use R290. I know, I sound like that old refrigeration technician, but that's because I am.
I replaced compressor R290 to R134A compressor it works great. it runs 3 years till now still works great. I switch compressor because supply didn’t have R209 and customer can’t wait, i tried to explain them already but they want me to try.
Did this today on a cap tube system because I didn't have anymore r290 on my service vehicle, pressures look good compressor is running warm liquid line is warm suction line is cold. Cooler pulled down to temp relatively quickly. I guess we'll see
Would have liked to see you adjust the txv to get a better superheat. Also how were the compressor amps? I noticed you took Amp draw from entire unit not just compressor.
This reminds me of a time my dad put R134A in a Kenmore R410 window air conditioner. I do say it worked, just not great. Worked a heck of alot better once I weight the 410 back in, although compressor still sounds rough.
Looking at this video the first thing I wondered was what are the differences in specific volume between the two gasses when you had to add such a big difference in order to get sub cool up, and then the difference in condensing temps.
Very good video, informative, that said, not too impressed with R290 systems, have seen more compressors fail than equivalent R134A systems. When it happens, I usually load the R290 components onto my horse and buggy cart and switch up everything to make it work.
Absolutely fascinating, have been waiting for someone to do this video. Tried this myself on a capillary system, of course it didn't work, didn't perform. I am not convinced about R290, although I have no influence on the subject.I work for a distributor and see used units appearing back. Have picked up a lot of very useful tips and techniques from your content looking forward to the next video
hey, thanks, going through the numbers really made it stick in my head how bad an idea that was and I dont know enough yet to think if a correct size orfice as an expansion valve was possible.... but sure makes me think.
The expansion valve isn't going to allow for the refrig change. It still thinks theres R290 in the system. I'd like to see it tested with right expansion valve or cap tube.
In Australian Automotive industry (especially back in 00's) it was common for R134a systems to be recharged with propane based blends due to the high cost of 134a in Australia. The rule of thumb is 30% propane based blend by weight to the specified R134a. Essentially the same volume of hydrocarbon weighs less than the r134a hydroflurocarbon. I never like seeing this done especially without an oil change as the propane blend would not mix well with some of the oils used and oil flow to the compressor would be erratic. People were after a quick cheap regas and the oil change just added to the cost so it was seldomly done.
Since its cowboy day get that crimping tool out and give that liquid line a hug. I forget what brand upright cooler I worked on back in the early 2000's that used a crimp on the liquid line as a fixed orifice.
Great video Chris, I love the Mythbusters type of garage science and you have handily busted that myth! 👍 I love your regular videos and livestream but this was a nice direction to explore. Hopefully this is well received and you are inspired to do more... 👨🔧👨🔬👨🏫 Well done sir, well done. 👏
Thanks bud, I will be going live on TH-cam this evening 1/6/19 @ 5:PM (pacific time) to discuss my most recent uploads and answer questions from videos comments, emails and Facebook comments. Also we will be chatting in Discord before the stream here is the discord link >>>>discord.gg/j8eyfC2
This is why a lot of people out there are changing/charging their old r22 system to/with it. Plus, propane is a lot easier to get a hold of then r22. And now that's it 2020. It's gonna be a lot harder to get a hold of r22 now that's it illegal to import and manufacture it in the US.
In my Oppinion the new Drop-in R1234yf and R1234ze which is meant to replace R134A are far worse than R290, they also flamable and if you try to extinquish the fire with water it creates Hydrofluoric-acid .
Wow. This is such a cool video. I have been watching you videos recently. Your channel is awesome. Refrigeration is such an interesting trade!! Thank you
I have found that r22 systems work damn well on r290 (my own systems). I wouldn’t dare go from HC to HFC refrigerants. My truck is running a blend of R290 and R600a sold under the trade name Minus 30 or M30, and works great. Also the difference in saturation points in 134 and 290 make it unsafe to use, without a receiver, larger coils and adjustment to txv superheat, it’ll never work right as you said. Great video.
I like that. I'm a idiot. I have been wanting to do this at our shop. We picked up a office scale for the r600a and r290. Our name brand hvac scales are not reliable.
Nice demo, I love this stuff.... Wow, isn't it weird that in the 1900s 🤣, Servel made full size propane fired absorption household refrigerators (like RV's use), and even residential AC package units for remote homes, worked on only one, and now we're back to propane, but not as the flame source which produces the dreaded CO2, but rather propane as the actual refrigerant gas inside the system yikes!. "may you live in strange times". 47 year ACR&H commercial field service tech and C22/38 contractor now retired. Wow used to even blow out condenser coils with R-12 or 22 when my CO2 bottle ran out damn. 🤣 😷 🤣 🙄 Now if you'll excuse, I must buy even more GameStop stock 😅🤔🤣
Very interesting video, but over here in the UK the discussion is less replacing R290 with R134a (incidentally, also the propellant in my inhaler) & more towards replacing 134a with R290 in automotive AC/climate systems. What are your views/experience on doing it that way round? (in my limited experience experimenting, it works more efficiently, bringing temps down sooner for less charge. Basically a complete 180 from what happens going from R290 to R134a, in that case I didn't weigh anything just charged until the sightglass cleared.)
In the US the present design of the system is too dangerous to convert to r290, a fireball in every car accident.I also think the cost in new vehicles to create and implement a safe system is the reasoning behind r1234yf
Yep, I will be going live on TH-cam this evening 1/6/19 @ 5:PM (pacific time) to discuss my most recent uploads and answer questions from videos comments, emails and Facebook comments. Also we will be chatting in Discord before the stream here is the discord link >>>>discord.gg/j8eyfC2
For curiosity sake, try that again with R407c... the pressure/Temperature relationships are much closer to R290 than R134 is... it would be interesting to see the results with the R407c, interested in trying it again?
i ran the numbers on about 10 refrigerants. 407c is alot closer than 134a but still a little high. id use R-458a wayy closer. within 10 psig. it would prob work perfect.
Yeah it would help but it still wouldnt be right...I will be going live on TH-cam this evening 1/27/20 @ 5:PM (pacific time) to discuss my most recent uploads and answer questions from TH-cam comments, emails and the live chat. Come on over and check it out if you can, th-cam.com/video/5KtVii_Tw5M/w-d-xo.html
FWIW, R-290 weighs 44.1g/mol. R-134a is 133.4g/mol. So 3x the weight for the same number of molecules. You weren’t TOO far off that for R-134a. Now, everything else is not going to work, but just based on weight, you’re not too bad. :/
I know I'm late, I'm new to this channel. I live in the EU and here in the EU it is more the other way round because the EU is restricting the import of R134a because of it's high greenhouse warming potential. I've seen some guys putting LPG from gas stations in their car ACs because R134a keeps getting more and more expensive.
I think that if you adjusted the condenser fan speed higher to compensate for the lack of copper pass lines in the condenser you could get closer to your desired temp? I built an hvac/mineral oil cooled xbox just for fun of it using 134 and found the fan speed made a lot of difference.
First of all these little standalone unitary refrigeration systems you cannot regulate the condenser fan speed you only do that with larger one horse two horse 5 horse 10 horse and that relates to low ambient conditions etc to maintain enough pressure across the TXV
You would need to change the TXV period the sub cooling says it all. You said it 18 minutes in that the txv is not sized right for R134a.could it work with that size coil yes it would just take longer the TXV is the main deal. Great job cool experiment.
Good info !! I have a barely out of warranty GE freezer that they said was unfix able. I highly considered replacing the compressor which is at fault with one not necessarily R600 compatible and weighing in R134A. But I guess I’ll try to find a compressor that is compatible with R600 and weigh in the proper charge
Now lets go the other way round, and charge the r134 system with R290 :-) Make sure to convert to molar ammounts, and use similar ammount of moles, not grams. 102/42 = 2.42 - thats the charge reduction factor. Go slowly from the suction side in a vapour phase :-) Once system is running, compare the performance...
So how did you figure out the charge. One of the key benefits of hydrocarbons is the reduction in refrigerant charge. Compared to R22 and R134a, R290 results in a 40% reduction in refrigerant charge. R600a results in a 45% reduction in charge compared to R134a, and a 60% reduction compared to R12.
good that you are experimenting on a unit that you are going to scrap rather than a good unit you intend to put into service. couldnt you upturn the dryer filter to use that as a crude receiver? have you thought of putting less r134a in? i have heard that in the automotive industry the r134a is supposed to be more powerful than the original r12 .
Saya sdh mengganti 290 dengan 134.., dan saya sdh mengganti oli,tapi hanya bertahan 1 bulan.. compresor mati.. 😭 Saya sangat setuju dengan video anda # from indonesia..
Also I watch your videos mostly on the refrigeration stuff due to my lack or knowledge on them types of systems basicly the charging differences in the all the different gasses. Hvac systems I understand very well just like seeing the new technologies you use in today's age of hvac
This is why those of us with old cars who once had R12 in them and had to convert to R134a don't get the same cooling we used to and HATE IT!! You need more condenser area for it to work effectively and the old tube and fin condensers don't cut it. The 6mm piccolo styles do work much better but the parallel flow is the best. I just don't like how they can't be flushed plus depending on the car, you may need to have one made special order which isn't cheap.
IIRC R-134a is about twice as dense as pure propane (C3H8). An appropriate charge would be around twice the weight, anything more is likely too much and you'd have to physically rebuild the system to get better numbers, and I see that was your conclusion as well! (Mind you: I'm not an HVAC technician, but I'm a chemist with quite a bit of curiosity for refrigeration systems)
I was told it's near impossible to get dry nitrogen, and what we get in those tanks isn't even close. Have you heard anything of the sort? It explains why your originally dry system with just 290 now had an issue pulling a vacuum after nitrogen purge
Hey guy - judging from the pressure / temp charts you should try R22. Looks like the r290 and r22 pressures are not very far apart at 40 degrees and 100 degrees... you already have it set up let's see what happens
Come on over to my livestream tongiht and I will discuss this I will be going live on TH-cam this evening 1/6/19 @ 5:PM (pacific time) to discuss my most recent uploads and answer questions from videos comments, emails and Facebook comments. Also we will be chatting in Discord before the stream here is the discord link >>>>discord.gg/j8eyfC2
You say you're not an expert but you're probably as expert as most people are likely to cross paths with. It looks like you did exactly what anyone would do to prove the hypothesis and provide the service of showing us the results.
Thanks.
Thanks for watching bud, I will be discussing this on my livestream this evening I will be going live on TH-cam this evening 1/6/19 @ 5:PM (pacific time) to discuss my most recent uploads and answer questions from videos comments, emails and Facebook comments. Also we will be chatting in Discord before the stream here is the discord link >>>>discord.gg/j8eyfC2
It is an insult to many people. You have a lot of sophisticated equipment but you are lacking the most important ingredient and that is "KNOWLEDGE". Please don't public these stupidity! ! !
R290 is far more efficient than most refrigerants today. You need less of it with lower compression ratio. It's the future. Weighing it in is kind of tricky. Obtaining r290 is harder since it can't be delivered via truck or plane due to flammability. I had to order some on eBay.
Please do a video running regular propane through a couple filter driers and load it into a 290 system and see what happens. I'd watch that one for sure.
billybbob18 id love to see this experiment but I’d never try it due to the Odorant in propane being corrosive
can't say i want an R290 system in my home
@@keithchapman124 I think it is only used in systems up to about 150 g due to its flammability
Should have told me, I got a full bottle of R290 next to my barbecue. Does not exactly say R290, but hey.
i just bought an R32 window air conditioner. BTW thats BUTANE
LG used compressors designed for R600 in their 134a residential fridges and had a massive issue on their hands. With 134a operating at double the pressure and roughly double or triple the charge of R600; we were experiencing rampant compressor failures. We have since learned that the failure point was of the internal compressor check valves eventually blowing out. Samsung also used improper compressors in their first R600 system used in America and redesigned that system to be replaced with 134a using a new evaporator and new compressor. I don't work commercial, but R290 is an isobutane/ propane mixure just like R600 is. This was unique to see someone else try what some of us residential guys have already experienced. Keep up the good work!
I should note that R600 systems will typically run -10psi low side and roughly 50psi on the high side. Standard 134a machines will operate at similar pressures you showed in the video at 30psi low and roughly 100psi high
R290 is not a mixture. It's propane.
R600a / R290 mixtures is e.x. www.boconline.co.uk/en/products-and-supply/refrigerant-gases/natural-refrigerants/care30/care30.html which is similar to R134a
Uhhhh, hate to be picky but R-290 is straight propane (C3H8) and R-600a (isobutane) is a tee shaped structural isomer of straight butane (R-600, C4H10). None of these are blends. But good comment otherwise 👍
(I put a tremendous amount of effort into 3 years of college chemistry, not trying to be a beeotch 😉)
@@sinistersparky9657 interesting to learn. I was under the impression that the iso portion of the isobutane was indicating it was a blend. Multiple manufacturers of home refrigeration products have explained it to be that way. If you're correct, and I have no reason to believe you arent, then thank you for clarifying.
@@J00bles right on bud - Wikipedia has a good picture of both structures here: en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butane
Normal butane (n-Butane) is a zigzag shape while isobutane is a tee or star shape... this is a fairly accurate model of what each molecule looks like but I digress lol 🤓👨🏻🔬
Still a great post bud, chemistry ain't easy... notice I said 3 years and not 4... I'm a dropout 🙃🤯🤑
Great experiment! Always great learning adventures when experimenting. R290 has roughly double BTU capacity over our normal refrigerants. That's why tubing is so small, doesn't need to circulate as much refrigerant compared to normal refrigerants. As you proved, it won't work.
Years and years ago I worked at Koch Refrigeration in Kansas City, Kansas and spent a lot of time with the engineers learning about how to set up refrigeration. Actually, you are only partially correct about switching from R290 (propane) to R134A. It takes about 4-8 times more R134 than R290 to achieve the same cooling because of the temp efficiency of the R290. If you replaced the condenser with a parallel flow unit the R134 would have worked much better. However, it is cheaper to make tube and fin than parallel flow so HVAC unites are set up that way. Also, R134A is very peculiar/finicky about the charge. One ounce over or under will kill the cooling. Takes an engineer to really measure the required charge. There is no danger to the unit from the switch as the compressor will run either refrigerant with the same oil.
I will vouch for this in the automotive sense. I have a 2002 mercedes that had alot of the a/c system replaced besides the evap core and compressor. Charged up, would cool fantastic, drive down the road and it'll shut on and off.
Pulled some from the system (maybe 1 or .5 oz. If that its been a while) system felt just as cool, stayed running at a constant at speed or idle and would honestly fog the windows up on a summer day.
R290 should be compared to 404a because of their evap temp.
Used R290 cleaned, as an R22 replacement for R22, crude, but cooling is BRILLIANT, better than R22, units have been running for 4 years. zero problems
Heating on reverse cycle is very OK, but a little slower than R22.
I clean BBQ propane from bottle to bottle with silica gell, a filter dryer, old fridge compressor, heat sink - fan cooled, everything works perfectly.
Hope this gives you some info - it works.
Thank you!
As a risk taking tinkerer, i have discovers that bbq grade 290 works pretty damn good in a 134a system.
I was the head of quality control at airgas specialty products for a few years, if you used Aspen brand refrigerants that was me. In the lab, we would test refrigerants on a gas chromatograph and R290 has roughly twice the thermal conductivity of a chlorinated/fluorinated refrigerant, which is definitely why the condenser coil is smaller on an r290 unit. R290 is also roughly half the weight by volume of R134, so 113 grams of R290 is about the same volume as 230 grams of R134a, so both of your observations are on point with this unit. And yes, you are right, those systems are absolutely designed differently and won't be right if refrigerant is changed. R290 has some very good qualities as a refrigerant, excercise some safe work practices and you should be fine.
So your saying it could be done we just need a blanket on half the condenser, swap out the txv for and erv and change the charge weight 🤔
Save time too just swap to blanket to the dirty side in 5 years. Compressor change in 10
@@mikepict9011 love that idea! nobody ever cleans condenser coils til they stop working! 😅
@@mikepict9011 if you go from 134a to r290 then yes on the blanket because of the better thermal conductivity, but going from 290 to 134 you would need to go the other way and make the condenser bigger. Swap to an R22 txv and yes it could work, in theory
I did this experiment a few years ago with a r290 whynter 12/24vdc 115vac chest freezer I found on the side of a boat ramp with 0psig. Found a leak and brazed it (after nitro sweep and 500 mic EVAC, of course). Almost doubled the charge with r134a. Had very similar results as you: no sc and low sh. Swapped the 12vdc fan for a higher cfm unit and slowly pulled a few grams out until it was happy. She's been rocking at -8 degrees ever since. Not exactly sure what the final charge was because I was thoroughly drunk by the time I got done. Seriously considering replicating it again and recording the actual weight. My current project is converting an atlas wdf-2 ice cream dipping cabinet to run on 12vdc with a sikelan qdzh65g. Pray for me 🤣
I have a old 80's model refrigerator that was manufactured with r12 I put 134a in it about 5 years ago and it is still working perfect I use it for a garage refrigerator
Thank you for doing this. I was really curious about these two refrigerants being interchangeable. This is very educational and worth watching.
You experiment was well worth it the time to watch, I am not a refrigerant coolant designer but the first thing that came to mind was the word densities, more targeted the density of Gas. The two gases and their properties are totally different and as Mike H said it, R134A has a finite window for working or not working. it is like a ham radio operator trying to adjust its HF antenna to talk to Cubans. Anyway so greatful for this channel and youtube as a means to help each other out. I found that after 15 years, my copeland compressor went bad and was not because of any body mixing any gases and not purging the old ones out. It went out due to moisture. One of the pipes in the inverter went out and the system kept running for some reason until the low level tripped it off. Then moisture and its age, i believe it had been been there since the 90s overheated and there it went. When I cut it open it had black oil and the compressor on the outside was black as in black ash or dirt and then I learned that mixing R134a and R410a can do that.
Excellent video, sir. First thing to popped in my mind this is new hvac mythbuster ! 🤣
I’ve seen a lot of people said replaced R290 with 134A or 404A but your experiment is showing different. Appreciate for your time to share this one with us. Thank you Chris 👍
Is the oil compatible with other refrigerants ? Is the power head on the TXV compatible ? It becomes a re-engineering nightmare ,I have been there many times .
@@michelgrenier1878 oil ist not compatible with r290. you need mineral oil.
Chris, this is a spot on video....this is exactly the proof that you cant just use any system with any refrigerant....systems are specifically designed for use with certain temps, pressures, and efficiency. I've had moronic ideas early in my education to use the wrong refrigerant when the easy way looks soooo good. Thank you for the real word application and hopefully you've helped another "super tech" from a badd mistake....J
Had old Chrysler used 12 added flammable gas when gas not available later 134 never pumped out never changed oil needed 1/2 can yearly had a parts car always worked ..
This holds true for many other fields. I work in RF and it is VITAL that you get parts and measurement correct or it can cost you big time $$$
I tried the same experiment a few months back on a different brand cooler with totally positive results. My evap superheat and subcooling were very normal. In my opinion, the earlier units were just 134A systems converted to Propane for the government mandate. However, your Delfield may be a re-engineered piece being optimized for propane.
Of course you never want to do this!!
Liked it without even watching it, trying to change r290 with 134 was my idea for a long time.
Hope people see this and learn. Good job. You proved them wrong. Have a blessed day
You are of the same kind as him. A real fool!
Try 404A, it's very similar to R290. In both suction and high side. And enthalpy.
No it’s not!
@@DonGerd2011 it's closer than 134a
no its not. R-458a would be the closest drop in. wayy closer to r-22 pressures.
@@OcRefrig did you mean R438A?
@@jellybean2032 no , 458A .
Wow awesome experiment I wanted to thank you and putting to rest all those tales that it will work with 134a but for how long. All in all great way of showing not to put a gas that was not designed to be put in that particular piece of equipment. Thank you.
My wife would kill me if I had to scrap a double wide stand up freezer. On the other hand, this was really neat to watch and see your thought processes as you performed the experiment. Thank you for the experiment and this video!
Thanks bro! Im in the middle of this discussion and gonna send this video to someone
You need to change the expansion devise. And you're right. Good job.
I converted one to R404a for capacity, six months ago, amps were good, head pressure was high, I charged it by the best air TD across the evap. It got down to temp and shut off nicely. I think next one I'll try R407f ,for capacity and lower head pressure. Possibly change the 6 watt condenser fan motor with a 9 watt. On TH-cam I watched a video of a guy's house refrig blew up, I'm concerned about these r290 units when they age and blow up in a restaurant and the customer yelling that you were the last one to work on it 8 months ago. My gut feeling is 290 is a fad and won't be around in 5 years because of the danger and fire damage and lawsuits. As the compressors fail I'll replace them with R407f or R404a compressors
Yeah time will tell how they work out for sure, honestly I'm not afraid of them but if someone doesnt follow the proper procedures of purging with nitro before brazing they could get a surprise! Thanks for watching Jim and taking the time to leave a comment....... by the way I'm a fan and miss your videos!
@@HVACRVIDEOS my concern is safety.r290 refrig.units located on cook lines with open flames+poor ventilation.great vid.chris thank you
Mr Pettinato, please get back on youtube. We all miss you. Your experience and knowledge is still very valuable to be shared with the community, and your savy and wisdom is greatly needed by all the techs.
The way that was, compressor failure is a definite! The immediate thing you should notice is that the compressor is flooded with refrigerant and the hi side pressure is low. Expansion valve is flooding, MAYBE you can adjust it down which will increase the PD at the valve? Maybe not. My bet is that R404A would give better pressures. There's very little available from the manufacturers for sure, so experimentation is all we got.
I've worked with r290 with ice cream freezers for a couple years In my opinion r290 is much closer to R404A than R134A. Allthough I did try r404A in a r290 system once, the compressor burnt out in a day, possibly because I didn't know what I was doing... In my opinion there is no point in using any other refrigerant in a r290 system because:
-R290 is cheap
-R290 is enviromentally friendly
- You can charge a leaking system and be cool with it. A small (really small, so small you cant find it) leak will not burn the building, also the charges in R290 systems are way smaller yet as efficient than other systems.
-No other refrigerant will work in these systems without modifying the system, and honestly I don't see the point to modif
I finally heard the correct word. Efficiency. It is not particularly dangerous. I have swapped between several different refrigerants. Just mind your pressures.
From uour experiment, it clearly demonstrates that R-290 is not a drop-in replacement for R-134a or vice versa. That compressor, based on what you were saying about its temperature and floodback conditions, will fail due to loss of lubrication from the refrigerant washing it out. That is only one of the problems that the metrics you illustrated in this video reveal. Thanks for the video!
Thanks for watching bud, I will be going live on TH-cam this evening 1/6/19 @ 5:PM (pacific time) to discuss my most recent uploads and answer questions from videos comments, emails and Facebook comments. Also we will be chatting in Discord before the stream here is the discord link >>>>discord.gg/j8eyfC2
The first thing people need to remember is just because you "can" should you?
Yes
In PR where knowledge and tools are not present...we do this on every r.290. never had calls back. It works fine. At least in tropical areas... Hate to say it. But this is what I have to do to survive.
Thanks for doing this. I can be nit picking sometimes but I think you are a EXCELLENT tech.
Dont mess with R-290 if your not trained. Watch TRUE MFG vids on how to handle R-290.
Im trying to figure out your caution? Propane is handled daily by untrained people vented with non smoking people standing just 2ft away?
the bleeder device vents roughly what this guy in the video placed inside his machine 18oz before the untrained shut off the filler and closes the vent on the bottle. this is done billions of times daily..by untrained people and kids 16 years old.
i mean dont go NUTZO on caution...even housewives can safely pump gas in their cars.....Have faith.......r-290 will keep our food cold.
@@brianrolshoven9387 They don't do it INSIDE. Also some the idiots you mention, manage to kill themselves and or others around them.
I have used 134a on some cap system, that used R600, similar to 290. I only read a few comments below not sure if anyone mentioned it. As long as you can achieve adequate pressures a 134a system runs about low side 0psi and 125 on high side, the other problem that may occur is the oils in the compressor R134a used an ester oil so switching refrigerant and metering devices if need may get unit cooling but, I think you would eventually get a compressor failure.
That's such a nice fridge, it makes me sad that the owner wanted it "disposed of" in that nice condition. What was their reason?
The liquid density of R134A is a lot more than R290 so it can't be compared by mass. Your experiment really proved this.
Also would expect it would reduce the system cooling capacity by a lot since the pressures for R134A are lower than those for R290. This affects the necessary surface area in the condenser to transfer the heat. With a lower pressure refrigerant, you will need more surface area to transfer the same amount of heat energy, so when lowering the pressure you would need larger tubing in the condenser to transfer the heat.
The compressor for R290 would have less volume displacement per horsepower than one for R134A as well. If you were to get the system working with R134A (with proper superheat and subcooling) the compressor would not be able to use its full motor power.
If you were to install a TXV for R134A (or re-calibrate the existing one) the superheat numbers would look better, but as said, the actual system capacity would be dramatically reduced. The compressor and expansion valve are not correct for R134A, period.
I run into scenarios like this when restoring antiques from the 1920's and 1930's where they used exotic and unavailable refrigerants, where we have to adapt and overcome, and make the system work with modern alternatives. It's a challenge for sure and requires a lot of research and engineering. But it's not the same as trying to put a wrong refrigerant into a modern unit in a professional environment.
I just don't understand why someone would consider using R134A for R290 when R290 is so easy to obtain. It seems really dumb!!! Plus R134A is a phase-out gas so we are trying to move away from that anyway. They are not thinking clearly and are making a big step in the wrong direction, and ending up stepping in a massive cow patty in the process!
Thanks for your time to make this experiment and show the results, I really enjoyed this video!
May be "contamination" inside etc. So you may never know (and he's probably not willing/allowed to share). He was just referring to the refrigeration system I think.
@@RubenKelevra
There's no telling. I've had people who factor into their business model replacement equipment every so many years. The cost of spoilage of whatever is stored there might outweigh the cost of replacement units. There are a lot of reasons, especially if the fridge is used in industry other than food service.
You didn't add 3 times the gas but only 2 times the gas. 113 grams of r290a is 2.5 moles of refrigerant 510 grams of r134a is 5 moles of refrigerant. These gases have very different molecular weights. 44 g/mol vs 102 g/mol. At a set temp and pressure which both exist as 100% gas 44g of 290 will occupy the same volume as 102g of 134a.
thanks for the chem.lesson, compressor capacity can be stated by how many pounds of refrigerant it pumps per hour &the type of refrigerant.the most safe & efficient refrigerant still is r-718. lol.
@@triedntruefitness Not sure how you can classify R718 as efficient, but it's certainly safe. I have half a kilogram of the stuff every morning for breakfast and I'm perfectly healthy.. ;)
No no no, that is completely wrong. I used to believe the same thing but molar mass is irrelevant in a refrigeration system. It represents the amount of molecules available to react with a given reagent. Refrigeration systems work mechanically there is no chemical reaction taking place, only changes of state. The molar density is irrelevant in a refrigeration system, what you need to look at are physical densities vs temperature and refrigerant state(liquid or gas). The density change from liquid to gas can vary immensely between refrigerants. Here’s a real world example: the gaseous density of R-134a at 10F is 9.23 kg/m3 vs R-290 which at the same temperature is 6.087 kg/m3. In the gaseous phase at that temperature r-134a is 152% more dense than r-290. That gaseous phase is going to begin with a liquid which has an altogether different density. Liquid density of r-134a at 10°F is 1334.1 kg/m3 vs r-290 which at the same temperature is 550 kg/m3. As a liquid at that temperature r-134a is 224% more dense. Two times the weight of the refrigerant is correct(approximately) and molar density has nothing to do with that. You need to look a saturation-temperature table, not molar density.
Another more extreme example is r-764 vs r-12. As a liquid at 10° r-764 is 1467.3 kg/m3 vs r-12 1437 kg/m3 which is a 2.2% difference with r-764 being more dense. Change it to a gas at that temperature and now r-764 is 2.78 kg/m3 whereas r-12 is 10.15 kg/m3. That is a 365% difference in density as a gas for a refrigerant that has almost the same liquid density(and was more dense as liquid but significantly less dense as a gas) and is approximately half the molar density, hence why it is irrelevant.
Her in the Philippines we have a costumer who have a Chinese made double glass door freezer and need to repair. This is r290 refregaretor. The issue of this unit is not cooling and according to the technician, compressor has been damaged. So our boss suggested it to change r134a compressor from r290 compressor. Almost 20 days still working.
Playing engineer never pays off ! I have done that for years ,Converting water cooled to air cooled and vice versa ,Converting a used 40 ton ammonia evap condenser to a glycol cooler for all the water cooled units in a dairy queen restaurants and building dx heat pumps for residential homes with my patent and rock drilling to install the ground coils ,and supermarket refrigeration innovations . Keep your life simple !
I totally agree I'm not trying to re invent the wheel, I will be discussing this on my livestream this evening I will be going live on TH-cam this evening 1/6/19 @ 5:PM (pacific time) to discuss my most recent uploads and answer questions from videos comments, emails and Facebook comments. Also we will be chatting in Discord before the stream here is the discord link >>>>discord.gg/j8eyfC2
Also, you are humble and you are a great tech.
Gotta use what the system was engineered to use. You have made that point well.
Thanks, I will be going live on TH-cam this evening 1/6/19 @ 5:PM (pacific time) to discuss my most recent uploads and answer questions from videos comments, emails and Facebook comments. Also we will be chatting in Discord before the stream here is the discord link >>>>discord.gg/j8eyfC2
The real question for me would be can you use r290 on a 134a system? I wonder If changing the filter drier and installing the right metering device would be enough
I've seen the R290 as a replacement for R12. Not a smart idea for automotive use, but it worked.
Nice experiment.
R290 weighs approximily the half off r134a , so the “correct” charge should be 2x 113 gram = 226 grams. R290 uses different oil and tests showed that a normal overheat causes the oil to boil out off the compressor. To prevent this they introduced an extra high overheat! to make the system work. This small system most likely uses a capillair as a injection to the evaporator and the lenght is especialy calculated. That’s why it won’t work for R134a.
Grtz from the Netherlands.
R290 can actually work with POE oil too and this system has a txv already, the problem was that the entire system was too small for the R-134a to work. I will actually be discussing this video on my Livestream this evening I will be going live on TH-cam this evening 1/6/19 @ 5:PM (pacific time) to discuss my most recent uploads and answer questions from videos comments, emails and Facebook comments. Also we will be chatting in Discord before the stream here is the discord link >>>>discord.gg/j8eyfC2
i been charging those r290 for years now 30 above ambient of r290 chart been working great did 100s of uints now usually look lower then r22 pressures. controlers and txv outlet leaking only problems been having on them so far.
This video gives me so many ideas! I have some spare piping and tools! Im gonna start mixin with the stuff on my roof!
Hope youve taken before and after pics of your roof, after you blew it up!
This is your life insurance company calling, you're monthly rate has now been increased 500%.
I am waiting on my business insurance to tell me there's a policy change if we're handling hydrocarbon refrigerant.
Dot hasn't made a ruling yet?
ikr. yep , when they get wind of it. any excuse to raise rates.
Is this really any different to working on package units with natural gas heaters?
Man, the problems with evap and condenser temp and other is VERY EASY decidable! Just need to close litle bit your txv valve ( or to replace capillary tube with smaller )and evap temp will go low to target temp, condenser temp will rise to target too ! I did that many many times few years and all , i mean ALL comercial fridges and freezers are still working WITHOUT any problems !
R134A systems use R134A.
R404A systems use R404A.
R290 systems use R290.
I know, I sound like that old refrigeration technician, but that's because I am.
I agree
I replaced compressor R290 to R134A compressor it works great. it runs 3 years till now still works great. I switch compressor because supply didn’t have R209 and customer can’t wait, i tried to explain them already but they want me to try.
Did this today on a cap tube system because I didn't have anymore r290 on my service vehicle, pressures look good compressor is running warm liquid line is warm suction line is cold. Cooler pulled down to temp relatively quickly. I guess we'll see
Would have liked to see you adjust the txv to get a better superheat. Also how were the compressor amps? I noticed you took Amp draw from entire unit not just compressor.
I might have missed it, but it would have been good to know before and after Amps on the compressor.
This reminds me of a time my dad put R134A in a Kenmore R410 window air conditioner. I do say it worked, just not great. Worked a heck of alot better once I weight the 410 back in, although compressor still sounds rough.
Looking at this video the first thing I wondered was what are the differences in specific volume between the two gasses when you had to add such a big difference in order to get sub cool up, and then the difference in condensing temps.
Great work love how you make them very educational, love how you go in-depth with all little tricks of the trade, keep it up!!
Very good video, informative, that said, not too impressed with R290 systems, have seen more compressors fail than equivalent R134A systems. When it happens, I usually load the R290 components onto my horse and buggy cart and switch up everything to make it work.
Great experiment! Glad I watched this.
Absolutely fascinating, have been waiting for someone to do this video. Tried this myself on a capillary system, of course it didn't work, didn't perform. I am not convinced about R290, although I have no influence on the subject.I work for a distributor and see used units appearing back. Have picked up a lot of very useful tips and techniques from your content looking forward to the next video
hey, thanks, going through the numbers really made it stick in my head how bad an idea that was and I dont know enough yet to think if a correct size orfice as an expansion valve was possible.... but sure makes me think.
you know its going to be a great video when you start out saying " I'm an idiot and I deffinitely dont know what I am doing" I have my popcorn!!!!
The expansion valve isn't going to allow for the refrig change. It still thinks theres R290 in the system. I'd like to see it tested with right expansion valve or cap tube.
it will be wide open
True has a micro hose charging kit. Took a class on hc stuff. Hc is 30% more efficient.
Do you know true part number for the kit?
@@whitesheatingairappliancer7101
I found this...
Envirosafe part# 3265-290/600
I don't know what others think but I had put r290 în r410 and r415 systems and damn, I'm happy with them.
Next, I might blend some 290 în r32😊
In Australian Automotive industry (especially back in 00's) it was common for R134a systems to be recharged with propane based blends due to the high cost of 134a in Australia. The rule of thumb is 30% propane based blend by weight to the specified R134a. Essentially the same volume of hydrocarbon weighs less than the r134a hydroflurocarbon.
I never like seeing this done especially without an oil change as the propane blend would not mix well with some of the oils used and oil flow to the compressor would be erratic. People were after a quick cheap regas and the oil change just added to the cost so it was seldomly done.
Since its cowboy day get that crimping tool out and give that liquid line a hug.
I forget what brand upright cooler I worked on back in the early 2000's that used a crimp on the liquid line as a fixed orifice.
Great video Chris, I love the Mythbusters type of garage science and you have handily busted that myth! 👍
I love your regular videos and livestream but this was a nice direction to explore. Hopefully this is well received and you are inspired to do more... 👨🔧👨🔬👨🏫
Well done sir, well done. 👏
Thanks bud, I will be going live on TH-cam this evening 1/6/19 @ 5:PM (pacific time) to discuss my most recent uploads and answer questions from videos comments, emails and Facebook comments. Also we will be chatting in Discord before the stream here is the discord link >>>>discord.gg/j8eyfC2
I actually did the research r290 actually matches up with r22 more then any other refrigerant. Critical temp and boil.
thanks for the input i will call this week for info-chgoland
This is why a lot of people out there are changing/charging their old r22 system to/with it. Plus, propane is a lot easier to get a hold of then r22. And now that's it 2020. It's gonna be a lot harder to get a hold of r22 now that's it illegal to import and manufacture it in the US.
In my Oppinion the new Drop-in R1234yf and R1234ze which is meant to replace R134A are far worse than R290, they also flamable and if you try to extinquish the fire with water it creates Hydrofluoric-acid
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Wow. This is such a cool video. I have been watching you videos recently. Your channel is awesome. Refrigeration is such an interesting trade!! Thank you
I was comment 290 on one of your other R290 videos. Now I'm comment 134 on a video about R134. Freaky.
I have found that r22 systems work damn well on r290 (my own systems). I wouldn’t dare go from HC to HFC refrigerants. My truck is running a blend of R290 and R600a sold under the trade name Minus 30 or M30, and works great. Also the difference in saturation points in 134 and 290 make it unsafe to use, without a receiver, larger coils and adjustment to txv superheat, it’ll never work right as you said. Great video.
I like that. I'm a idiot. I have been wanting to do this at our shop. We picked up a office scale for the r600a and r290. Our name brand hvac scales are not reliable.
Do you use weights to test your scales?
Seems like food and bathroom scales are probably as accurate or better than HVAC scales
Bathroom scales don't use grams? I prefer to own a certified scale.
Have you changed out the expansion valve before switching refrigerants?
Nice demo, I love this stuff....
Wow, isn't it weird that in the 1900s 🤣, Servel made full size propane fired absorption household refrigerators (like RV's use), and even residential AC package units for remote homes, worked on only one, and now we're back to propane, but not as the flame source which produces the dreaded CO2, but rather propane as the actual refrigerant gas inside the system yikes!. "may you live in strange times".
47 year ACR&H commercial field service tech and C22/38 contractor now retired. Wow used to even blow out condenser coils with R-12 or 22 when my CO2 bottle ran out damn.
🤣 😷 🤣 🙄
Now if you'll excuse, I must buy even more GameStop stock 😅🤔🤣
Very interesting video, but over here in the UK the discussion is less replacing R290 with R134a (incidentally, also the propellant in my inhaler) & more towards replacing 134a with R290 in automotive AC/climate systems. What are your views/experience on doing it that way round? (in my limited experience experimenting, it works more efficiently, bringing temps down sooner for less charge. Basically a complete 180 from what happens going from R290 to R134a, in that case I didn't weigh anything just charged until the sightglass cleared.)
In the US the present design of the system is too dangerous to convert to r290, a fireball in every car accident.I also think the cost in new vehicles to create and implement a safe system is the reasoning behind r1234yf
Yep! And now you know.
Propane uses mineral oil, 134a uses polyether oil similar to brake fluid. Mixing them will kill your compressor.
Just add more gas lol famous last words before the compressor implodes great video
Yep, I will be going live on TH-cam this evening 1/6/19 @ 5:PM (pacific time) to discuss my most recent uploads and answer questions from videos comments, emails and Facebook comments. Also we will be chatting in Discord before the stream here is the discord link >>>>discord.gg/j8eyfC2
Sounds like my dentist. I gotta add more gas.
For curiosity sake, try that again with R407c... the pressure/Temperature relationships are much closer to R290 than R134 is... it would be interesting to see the results with the R407c, interested in trying it again?
i ran the numbers on about 10 refrigerants. 407c is alot closer than 134a but still a little high. id use R-458a wayy closer. within 10 psig. it would prob work perfect.
Wow, glad to see this; now I don't have to try it!.
What about R600a as a substitute for R290? Butane vs Propane?
Chris would changing the expansion valve make a difference in super heat and sub cooling great videos
Yeah it would help but it still wouldnt be right...I will be going live on TH-cam this evening 1/27/20 @ 5:PM (pacific time) to discuss my most recent uploads and answer questions from TH-cam comments, emails and the live chat. Come on over and check it out if you can, th-cam.com/video/5KtVii_Tw5M/w-d-xo.html
You did a good job on this video. Good explanation and demonstration of a good understanding of the fundamentals. Thank you!
FWIW, R-290 weighs 44.1g/mol. R-134a is 133.4g/mol. So 3x the weight for the same number of molecules. You weren’t TOO far off that for R-134a. Now, everything else is not going to work, but just based on weight, you’re not too bad. :/
It would be interesting to see how close you could get with a TXV adjustment. That notwithstanding, it's never going to work well if at all.
I know I'm late, I'm new to this channel. I live in the EU and here in the EU it is more the other way round because the EU is restricting the import of R134a because of it's high greenhouse warming potential. I've seen some guys putting LPG from gas stations in their car ACs because R134a keeps getting more and more expensive.
Great demonstration
I think that if you adjusted the condenser fan speed higher to compensate for the lack of copper pass lines in the condenser you could get closer to your desired temp? I built an hvac/mineral oil cooled xbox just for fun of it using 134 and found the fan speed made a lot of difference.
First of all these little standalone unitary refrigeration systems you cannot regulate the condenser fan speed you only do that with larger one horse two horse 5 horse 10 horse and that relates to low ambient conditions etc to maintain enough pressure across the TXV
You would need to change the TXV period the sub cooling says it all. You said it 18 minutes in that the txv is not sized right for R134a.could it work with that size coil yes it would just take longer the TXV is the main deal.
Great job cool experiment.
Awesome video! Thanks for sharing your time and knowledge with us.
Good info !! I have a barely out of warranty GE freezer that they said was unfix able. I highly considered replacing the compressor which is at fault with one not necessarily R600 compatible and weighing in R134A. But I guess I’ll try to find a compressor that is compatible with R600 and weigh in the proper charge
Now lets go the other way round, and charge the r134 system with R290 :-)
Make sure to convert to molar ammounts, and use similar ammount of moles, not grams. 102/42 = 2.42 - thats the charge reduction factor.
Go slowly from the suction side in a vapour phase :-)
Once system is running, compare the performance...
So how did you figure out the charge. One of the key benefits of hydrocarbons is the reduction in refrigerant charge. Compared to R22 and R134a, R290 results in a 40% reduction in refrigerant charge. R600a results in a 45% reduction in charge compared to R134a, and a 60% reduction compared to R12.
good that you are experimenting on a unit that you are going to scrap rather than a good unit you intend to put into service.
couldnt you upturn the dryer filter to use that as a crude receiver?
have you thought of putting less r134a in?
i have heard that in the automotive industry the r134a is supposed to be more powerful than the original r12 .
Thank you for the experiment.
Saya sdh mengganti 290 dengan 134.., dan saya sdh mengganti oli,tapi hanya bertahan 1 bulan.. compresor mati.. 😭
Saya sangat setuju dengan video anda # from indonesia..
I’m just changed to r134a for a freezer it run so good.
The cooler has no problem. But wrong sides TXV or tube the video shows.
Running 0-5 psi on a cap tube? Old fashion equip. Like a chest freezer.
I'm more interested in how well it would work with using commercially available propane instead of R290 or R22. And a mix of R290 and R22.
Do it full propane instead of r290 that would be awesome if it worked...lol
R290 is propane it just doesn't contain the odorant that bbq propane has....
Good to know never played with r290 when I was working on hvac stuff before I joined the military
Also I watch your videos mostly on the refrigeration stuff due to my lack or knowledge on them types of systems basicly the charging differences in the all the different gasses. Hvac systems I understand very well just like seeing the new technologies you use in today's age of hvac
113g of the stuff though... pff.. probably couldn't even finish cooking a proper steak on that. X-D
What's the box your using to hold R290 can...Holding that can upside down all the time sucks that would be nice to have
Great video man. If you replace compressor with r290 to 134a would it work right?
This is why those of us with old cars who once had R12 in them and had to convert to R134a don't get the same cooling we used to and HATE IT!! You need more condenser area for it to work effectively and the old tube and fin condensers don't cut it. The 6mm piccolo styles do work much better but the parallel flow is the best. I just don't like how they can't be flushed plus depending on the car, you may need to have one made special order which isn't cheap.
Good video I don't understand why people think they can alter the appliances it's against the law
IIRC R-134a is about twice as dense as pure propane (C3H8). An appropriate charge would be around twice the weight, anything more is likely too much and you'd have to physically rebuild the system to get better numbers, and I see that was your conclusion as well!
(Mind you: I'm not an HVAC technician, but I'm a chemist with quite a bit of curiosity for refrigeration systems)
I was told it's near impossible to get dry nitrogen, and what we get in those tanks isn't even close. Have you heard anything of the sort? It explains why your originally dry system with just 290 now had an issue pulling a vacuum after nitrogen purge
It would require change in cap tube (metering device) and oil change to even begin to be close to functioning.
oil change not necessary. R-290 uses poe. just metering device change.
@@OcRefrig Isn't R290 also compatible with mineral? Can you only get R290 systems factory charged with POE in the US?
Excellent you made it as safe as you can .you tried your best . 7/20/2021
Hey guy - judging from the pressure / temp charts you should try R22. Looks like the r290 and r22 pressures are not very far apart at 40 degrees and 100 degrees... you already have it set up let's see what happens
Come on over to my livestream tongiht and I will discuss this I will be going live on TH-cam this evening 1/6/19 @ 5:PM (pacific time) to discuss my most recent uploads and answer questions from videos comments, emails and Facebook comments. Also we will be chatting in Discord before the stream here is the discord link >>>>discord.gg/j8eyfC2
I can assure you that doing it with 404a would work like a champ. Just saying