As a retired volunteer firefighter, I suggest the proper extinguisher to have on hand when working with this refrigerant is a carbon dioxide or "BC" extinguisher. An ABC dry chem extinguisher would put your fire out, but it's also leave powder over everything. This powder is extremely fine and gets into everything. It's almost impossible to gt the powder out of everything and the powder can be corrosive. A CO2 extinguisher leaves no residue and you won't need to worry about a clean up.
After having had to use a powder extinguisher in anger, I now have a quite large CO2 one. It'll put out small houses. but gives me the excess capacity I can rely on.
Having worked as a 1st responder 35 years for the gas utility in St. Louis, Mo, I couldn’t agree with you more on your selection of fire extinguishers. As a firefighter, i’m sure you know the 1st thing that should be attempted is to calmly, stop the flow of gas by clamping the line or by other approved means. If stopping the flow is not an option then you have to determine if you really want to extinguish the fire , if flame is not impeding on anything flammable or damaging ,letting it burnout maybe your best option.
@@boby115 Yes, shutting off the fuel flow is the best option. And letting it burn if it’s not causing other problems is a good option. As a fire instructor told us once, you don’t just automatically start spraying water. If it’s burning, you know where the fire is and it’s consuming the fuel instead of having it spreading out looking for an ignition source.
@@csterett For large Gas fires this is absolutely true. Let it burn and cool the neighboring stuff like buildings for example if it is a burning Gas line in the street Wait for the Gas company to shut the line of and the fire will go out on itself You have a much bigger Problem if the excavator manages to dig up a Gas line WITHOUT igniting the thing in the process
You really need to be careful with CO2 fire extinguishers in closed spaces. We are very reluctant to issue them to people doing hot work inside equipment/sealed rooms etc due to the asphyxiation risk. Saying that if you set off a powder extinguisher in a kitchen you're going to have a bad time cleaning up the mess and writing off stock.
I'm 3 years in the trade and just found your channel recently. I am loving your long format videos where you show your thought process throughout the job. Your mentality and realism is refreshing and encouraging to me to keep doing the work I do and to always do better. Thank you for your videos!
Currently in adult education for HVACR and if it wasn’t for you and my great instructor I would have no clue what you were doing or even talking about. Love showing your videos to my small class of 10. Always grabs everyone’s attention and helps us see and understand what our instructor is saying. Thank you
Great video as always, I had the pleasure of working on a r-290 ultra low temp freezer that is a cascade refrigeration setup yesterday, the R-290 is on both loops kind of, the high temp loop is r-290 and the low temp is R-290 blended with R-170. Thankfully nothing was really wrong with it because I really didn't want to deal with having to blend refrigerants properly, it just needs to be defrosted, the customer wasn't too thrilled about that because defrosting that unit means it's basically down for 2 days, 24 hrs to defrost and 12 hours to pull temp down. Also yes this is a normal problem for these because it has no self defrost and it is running a -80C box temp with an evap that is basically a cold well turned on its side and if you defrosted it with heaters it would destroy the product so a yearly (or more often if they open the door a lot) shutdown defrost is a necessary evil like it or not.
@@Nighthawke70 ya tell me about it and the customer wants to fight with me about defrosting it because it needs to be down for 36 hours to defrost and return to operating temp. To add insult to injury I can't get the manager to stop scraping the inside walls of the box (which is the coil in this system) with a car ice scraper.
30:40 NEW NUGGET OF KNOWLEDGE UNLOCKED! I always wondered why sometimes after adjusting my ball valves closed, it will have a sharp rise in pressure! I didn't know they could hold pockets of air. Now I know to activate them throughout the evacuation to make sure they're evacuated too! Thank you, man!
Well done as always! If I had to do this txv replacement I would have also cut the right side lineset a few inches back, done my txv welds outside the box so I could be SURE not to mess it up. Then just do the normal copper welds inside the box. Seems that would have been a little easier and you're less likely to mess up the welds and have to cool it off and try again! Btw all of the txv straps are the worst, how do those things even work!? I swear I just hope to make them work when I have to install it haha Great video as always!
Manitowoc ice machines use the same tree of valve, I’ve always used 15% solder and as long as you don’t try to build a cap and just let it flow, it usually works pretty good. To be fair Manitowoc includes a how to braze instruction sheet and sometimes they even provide a pre fluxed stick of solder. Good times!
Have been soldering lots of those expansion valves with 15%, just heating the copper up, no direct flame on the stainless until the last touch. Never had any problem with the copper straps as the danfoss valves are delivered with.
Zero% stick flows easier melts at a lower temp and works better. Roll Silver Bearing solder is used on 1-1/8 on up and Mapp gets it hot enough to work.
They are making small R290/R600 recovery tanks now. Place that tank into a vacuum and it will take in the charge. I don’t really recommend venting in an enclosed space. In a pinch, I have used a leak tight plastic bag and just vented it outside. But a bottle is preferred.
Great video ! Great advice Sir. Follow proper HC refrigeration practices and it can be done safely. I work with HC refrigerants everyday. I sweat and braze every connection. Properly remove the threat and the the system is not much different then any non-HC system. If a technician is not comfortable working with HC’s , get proper training.
Here in France brazing on R600a or R290a is forbidden. We have to use Lockring style stuff.But often times you just can't because of the lack of space in those units, so every HVAC tech brazes anyway including myself. I turn the cooking hood on full blast then go on. Btw those stainless steel TXVs and Rotalock valves are a pain in the neck to sweat correctly!
Chris admiro tú responsabilidad, tú manera de ver las cosas, la forma de inspeccionar el problema a resolver pero sobre todo admiro tu forma de enseñar y dar consejos a tus seguidores. Gracias por todo eso. Saludos desde Coacalco Edo de México. Otra cosa. Como hago yo para poder comprar en tú negocio y la tienda de herramientas nuevamente muchas gracias.
14:02 just swage the 5/16” copper ever so slightly so that it fits snugly inside the 3/8” line and slightly swage the 3/8” if necessary. I had to do this Monday on a leak search and repair on an old R407c Trane RTU package unit and it worked fantastically, perfect leak and decay test. And I always use stay-brite 8 silver solder and stay clean flux for stainless to copper connections and I’ve never had an issue or call backs related to the repairs.
I was taught before breaking into the system for brazing to pressurise with ofn to 6bar vent vac to 2torr, then 5 bar vac 2 torr then repeat again then go for it. Great video though.
Dude Idk if you've ever serviced mortuarys but let me tell you I finished a compressor change on the dead person cooler and places like that REEK of chemicals you know that chemical smell. So I finish up the compressor change out and go to get the signature. I'm just chatting with them and mention the smell of the embalming fluid and the oldest mortician looks up and said "That's not embalming! it's GIN!" 😂😂
Nearly every R290 warranty call that I did wound up being inefficient compressors. When I replaced the stainless Danfoss I always used eutectic rods and they made it very easy - maybe 1" of rod per joint. On big stuff , you could do a "root" pass with the eutectic rod, and then fill with the 15%. I've been away from restaurant equipment service for 3-1/2 years and enjoyed you using some of my old tricks. Last Glastender unit I worked on was replacing an evaporator in the bar at a Great Wolf Lodge. Bar was in the swimming area - talk about working while distracted!
If I see stainless steel i just always use the orange rod. I swear that copper coating doesn't cut it. Also the flammable gas sensor for the stratus is super cool. It was about the same price as a dedicated leak detector but you get the functionality of the stratus.
Makes me wonder why they take the odor compound out of r290 if it's basically propane. Isn't rue whole point of the odor compound in propane to let you know you've got a flammable gas leak?
It's more they don't put the odor in the r290 gas (the smell is added to the gas not removed) considering how flammable it is a fridge could blow up a building if it leaked
Agreed with LordJasshin. It's not like a camping gas cylinder that holds a full pound of gas, we're talking only a few grams. Someone else pointed out in another comment that the odorant (mercaptan) might mix unfavorably with the oil. I imagine it could also create problems as a noncondensible, especially on these ultra-tiny critically-charged systems, where even a percent of the stuff could throw off the delicate balance of the system.
Hi I wanted to ask you if the new dryers that use r290 gas are at risk of catching fire due to the refrigerant r290 which is very flammable?I mean, if there is a small or big gas leak inside a dryer Thanks
The other day I was doing a compressor on a 410a split system. I was running out of nitrogen and I swept what I could but when I unsweat the discharge line it had a mild flame out. I didn't panic, but when I turned my torches off I had the bright idea to turn the oxygen back on and try to blow the fire out by blasting oxygen into the discharge line. BAM it popped like a loud firecracker. Luckily nothing bad happened. Left to go get more nitrogen after that. I guess it was a good idea to me at the time with my heat addled brain, could've been real bad. Can't be lazy like that with hydrocarbons, that's for sure
@tommyq374 yeah it was a dumb move and I definitely knew better, just let my intrusive thoughts win I guess. Usually I'd just turn the nitrogen way up and it'd snuff out the fire.
Strangely enough, it wasn't the _worst_ idea. What you did is quite literally blew out the flame, while rapidly cooling the metal. You also diluted the fuel. Yeah, you diluted with the oxidizer (oxygen), but it's still diluted. When the fuel is dispersed enough, the reaction halts.
Another good video man. Purchased the scale. I was using the larger normal scale. WTF. Im coming across more and more R290 each week. Had to get gauges with the smaller micro hoses just for R290.
This is the first time viewing your channel, and I really like your content. One quick question: I noticed you replaced the screw fittings on the refrigerant lines where you were flowing nitrogen. Why did those fittings need to be replaced? Thanks for the great video. I liked and subscribed.
In tight areas like that, I'll give you a little tip for brazing. Dial your torch down to a finer tip to shorten you flame and you can run it a little cooler since you'll be using the blue and white portion of the tip. Use the tip of the flame on top of the tubing feathering back and forth on the joint so you're pointing down and the tubing is blocking most of the flame. (In the video, you're putting a lot of heat on those evaporator fins). Put your solder on the bottom. Let the heat of the torch draw that solder up. That way you can easily see when it's hot enough and you know it's soldered all the way around. It also takes less time so your at less of a risk of overheating the txv or catching heat shields and rags on fire, It takes a little practice with the torch to feather the heat back and forth from the female side of the joint to the male side, but it's a much safer, easier, and more trustworthy way to braze. On vertical joints, I do the same thing. I always have my torch and solder on opposite sides. Much less chance of over heating. If you made it glow, you're already too hot and you're creating flakes "inside" the tubing that can become restrictions down the road. Also, you're making more work for yourself sweating off ports and the lines to the dryer if you have length to use a tubing cutter and have a nice new end to just debur and sand instead of having to put old solder into a new dryer hole or when putting ports back on. Just an observation to save you time and work with new ends. Lastly, I think your flame out was not from pockets of gas, but the gas that is mixed in with the compressor oil. Open to atmosphere, it was likely just off gassing the whole time you were waiting for your txv and installing it, and that close to the compressor, you had enough propane vapor to create that little flame out. A good high pressure purge with nitrogen before working that end might have prevented that.
A couple fittings, some hose, a flashback arrestor and Bernzomatic type torch head would be a cheap way to flare off the charge safely. Also, to alert future techs about the silver solder joints you could use a labelmaker label denoting that wrapped around the tubing close to the joint.
So a few weeks ago the walk-in at work was dripping onto the floor. The diagnosis was clogged PVC pipe between drain pan and condensate pump. Pipe was disassembled, cleaned, and reassembled. Last week, the problem returned, it was allegedly "fixed." Tonight, I noticed the coil was STILL dripping onto the floor. So I got in to take a closer look... And the drain line comes straight down from the drain pan into an elbow, then slopes UPHILL to another elbow before taking a turn and following the walls of the walk-in and through the box wall to the condensate pump. Yes, you read that correctly, the water must first flow UPHILL before going DOWNHILL to the pump. Seriously, I couldn't believe my eyes when I saw it, I took a picture and put it in our group chat with the message, "I think the problem is that water doesn't flow uphill very well. 🤪" FFS, do I have to do EVERYTHING myself?! (Not for minimum wage, that's for sure!) 48:57 - WEBELOS - Holy flippin' heck, that takes me back! I think you did the right thing by taking that cooler out-of-service. Yes, the chances of ignition are slim, but you make very valid points. If the concentration is high enough, the door seals are tight enough, and it happens to get near arcing brushes in a fan (or dip to the bottom of the box, slightly seep out near a contactor or whatnot), KABLOOEY. I know there are mere ounces in the system, and the risk is minuscule, but why take the gamble? When it comes to R-290, an explosive odorless colorless gas, why not err on the side of caution? Let's be blunt here. We live in a society. A society that is litigious in nature, and trending more so. Cover your butt whenever possible. Double-check, or even triple-check, your work.
I like the smaller jeweler type torch that had the little fabric exterior hoses. But you can't have anything on the gad line. It pinches then off. But that little jewler torch has a smaller heat area. Seem quicker safer and easier to move around. I can get it into tighter spots too.
I like how it's super dangerous and we don't' want it leaking and filling up the space... So we just vent it into the space. lol. I got a good laugh for that one.
Good vid...I would have put a 448a valve in it then charged it with 448a .... no liability problems. What everyone is missing is the 290 mixes with the poe and becomes napalm. Look up refrigerant explosions.
What a ball buster of a job! I use turbo torches to do all my soldering and I think it’s a little better in tighter circumstances. Oxsee acetylene I’m always afraid of overheating and burning through the pipe and it doesn’t go around the pipe as well. Maybe staybrite #8 on that expansion valve? Got to have all the tips if you go with a turbo torch. Either way, what a bear of a job. I am impressed with all your videos. You exercise a lot of extreme patience, and I don’t have that ability. I could not make videos I would use too much profanity in my language.!!
Thank you so much for this upload. I've learnt so much and it's interesting to see how you diagnose problems and things that you look out for before deciding how to go about fixing it.
😂😂 5/16 swagged to 3/8 I feel your pain on that one bro. I had to buy some 5/16 just because I got tired of dealing with it and definitely have made some very creative welds 😂
Also I weld those with the orange rod dude. It goes on so well. I’ve made repairs on that very weld that you found and I hit it with the rough sand and the orange rod flows right in dude like magic. It works really good on tricky welds where you have oil contamination too
I do really like how these refrigerants are zero ODP low GWP - just one drawback to using in my car. Can you smell R290 like regular propane? Or does the odorant damage the system? Some people say "R12 is the best it gets the coldest" but Ive found that 134a gets a little colder (290 and 600a a lot colder) but 12 would take longer to get cold. Is this because it has a high heat capacity and is efficient (R12)?
R-290 is just pure propane. Also it takes so so little on most the small units it's not that dangerous. Back in the late 90's people just dumped propane tanks when the new valves came out. It's a very powerful voc but other than that the risks are low it's only a few dozen grams vs like a 1pound+ camping tank
Yeah, I don’t know why these guys are so scared of it. When you open the system just use nitrogen to push it out of the system. Then replace the evaporator coil or compressor as normal R134a system and put a service valve at processing port and high liquid side. Then charge the system with manufacture suggested amount.
It kinda strange that some of the systems call for so little that it's crazy. less than 200 gram, I have lighters with more butane than the entire system has. It's only downside is poor cold weather performance, so it's basically useless for heat pumps. I have a 2 stage cascade system I build to get near cryogenic temps on my gaming pc. Using propane and ethane. I have a custom removable 3rd stage I can use to make liquid air I use electro magnets to draw out liquid oxygen and collect dryice after pouring off the liquid nitrogen. This system is OK at best I can make around 10gal a day of ln2, 2lb of dryice, and 1/2gal of liquid oxygen.
@@UltraHydrophobiccoat so u are saying to converted to a R134a system by replacing the evaporator and compressor that’s an R134a. Then recharge to the mfg. specs. You know that’s never gonna work long terms.
That is some green new deal nonsense to keep beer cold! When I started 43 years ago 22,12 and 502 is all we carried. No wonder why a good tech makes 6 figures these days! Nice job I would have been dropping F bombs left and right.Great job I feel your pain
I do residential appliance repair. When I am doing a compressor on r600 all the tubing comes the same size and you need to make a sleeve, swedging the tube cracks and splits the tube because its pretty thin. the evaps are even worse if they develop a leak and suck the compressor oil inside. I just cut out those evaps or you will have an exploding coil.
I just found your channel while researching the posible cause that my R290 monster refrigerator is not getting to temperature. I live in Rancho Cucamonga CA. Do you work in this area?
Love the vids! Quick question as far as I know most manufactures want you to crimp and seal the system and not to have permanent stubs on the system. I myself think that’s BS because makes it harder to work on and can potentially be dangerous even thought you are suppose to crimp then soap the end and then braze. What’s your take on that?
I don't pinch them off anymore, I did when I first started working with r290 but it's one less thing to do and I'd rather not have my employees braze them shut cause it's a bit sketchy
Exactly my thoughts. It’s significantly safer to leave the access ports on there than to risk starting a fire or cause an explosion soldering them closed.
I worked on an oil cooler that had a stainless steel heat exchanger once. It was leaking where the TXV feeder tubes were brazed into the heat exchanger. Took me an embarrassing amount of time to find out about 56% silver rods. But, I also used them to fix a fryer basket once. Lol
your attitude and mine are different when it comes to unhooking things. I always just unplug it, snap a pic of it unplugged along with an out of order tag on the whatever which I also photo. lastly I put it in the paperwork that they were warned the product is out of order. if they turn it back on its on them that's enough to show it wasn't my fault. its a if they want to risk it go do it but I'm not responsible. the power of having a camera in your pocket is incredible peoples
Are you sure the merkaptan would stay distributed across the gas and won't get e.g. absorbed into the compressor oil? Because then it would become even more dangerous, when people would be expecting "no smell - no leak", so feeling falsely safe and so not taking proper care.
if i were in your shoes on this one; i'd silver solder it on a bench and leave myself two easy copper-copper joints to do in the cabinet. for me anything that isn't copper-copper should be silver soldered
Sir great content, I would suggest while weld in that particular area is very difficult, use stainless steel plate and bend it like hook, and attached it in your welding torch,you can easily weld it, and I'm sure you will amaze the result. Sharing is good sir, that why I want share with you my experience. Thank you very much. Great job.
Maybe i missed you saying some things but. #1, you may have been able to solder the leak, not replacing the txv. #2 units like this sometimes you are better putting a orifice in place of the txv. The ss txv's are awful.
You should use a hose clamp and bend a spoon at the tip of your torch and it’ll keep you from burning anything on the other side of what your brazing in.
Definitely a diverse refrigerant! I've got it in both of my trucks. One was r22 and the other was r134a. The txv system is definitely a lot better at handling it. Just charge to 55psi on the suction side. Run the engine at highway RPM and make sure it doesn't pull into a vacuum
It's midsummer festivities in the nordics, which means today Friday is a bank holiday for most. Was gonna go to my neighbour and top up his split type AC. I've installed it in 2011, a Mitsubishi FD25. Well it was as good as empty. Well thought I'd top it up so he'll manage the weekend. Tried that, has a huge leak in the indoor unit coil. I quickly turned it on and pumped it down, with the refrigerant in the outdoor unit. Luckily I had a spare FD35 indoor unit at home so fetched it and switched the indoor units. So a ten minute job turned to three hours (my spare indoor unit was in an outdoor storage so had to clean it before I installed it)
I've been an HVAC tech for about 15 years now. I have yet to work on or go down the road of any flammable refrigerants. So my main question is, having not researched it myself, does the EPA allow for venting of R290?
If this is already in the comments, sorry. I was wondering if it would have helped to remove that drip plate that is below the evaporator coil? From what I see it is a few screws and you would gain a lot of work space. Even reach in from below if needed?
Had ports on it! Or you put piercing valves on it? If so what temp piercing valves you like? The vise grip style, don't work for me. I use the clamp on type, when I use them.. Techs leaving valve in the r290 systems?
Right. Maybe if we wrote "propane" on there instead of "R-290" people wouldn't need to be reminded it's flammable. I see a lot of comments about leaving the odor agent in it... Would that interfere chemically?
Someone suggested that it could react with the compressor oil, or otherwise end up "clumping up" and not be evenly distributed through the gas. I imagine it could also create a problem physically by acting as a noncondensible. Since R290 boxes tend to be so tiny and critically charged, even a small amount of stuff with a different phase change behavior could throw everything off.
R-290 is an A2 refrigerant, the new stuff rolling out is an A2L which is mildly flammable, you can hold a lighter to it, it won't ignite but it also won't blow the flame out either least the tests I've seen of A2L
@@HVACRVIDEOS yup correct, i was thinking 406a is A2 which was also used in commercial coolers but is toxic when burnt while R290 is a A3 which is non-toxic when burnt
For fun, ask your Sporlan rep why their charts only go to 100 pound differential on their TXV's. The real answer is they never realized it could work with even a 1 pound differential. Be sure you have a suction accumulator and you can flood the evaporator. It will float the head way way way down. I had to do that in Alaskan villages as AC electric power was already over taxed so the compressors RLA dropped down too!
Warranty jobs don't pay close to what our street rates are but the company I work for, we're getting to that point with a few places which is really good.
So far for r290 I only came across a bad controller. I'm crossing fingers that I don't have to do complete change out. I guess for r290 you don't have to recover. Just vent it as long the room also vent and no spark source. Thanks for doing video on this one.
Hey chris great work dude! In my opinion i would assemble that txv outside the box soldering with little copper segments in each side, then throw it inside and just braze copper, think would be easier to braze and inspect. What do you think? Keep up w the great content
I myself will be working in the field with it this week and I'm going to start my externship for 180 hours I'm a little nervous but idk how it's going to be
i use silver solder on those what are not copper, better safe than sorry :D , and for those R290 refrigerant cylinders, i hate those small ones what are also available here, but here are also those bigger 5kg cylinders, lot's of "easier" to use.
R290 is just dry propane. Most likely it (flame) was a little oil in the line/dryer. Pull a vacuum first and while under vacuum turn on the nitrogen. R290 actually works better than R22. Similar glide and carries oil more efficiently. A little R600/R600A helps if you mix it in.
I've heard of a lady's R600a refrigerator blowing through the wall (like the demo on the movie "Fight Club"). Does this level of explosion happen when a low side leak develops and it sucks oxygen in? I know how a car engine works...
As a retired volunteer firefighter, I suggest the proper extinguisher to have on hand when working with this refrigerant is a carbon dioxide or "BC" extinguisher. An ABC dry chem extinguisher would put your fire out, but it's also leave powder over everything. This powder is extremely fine and gets into everything. It's almost impossible to gt the powder out of everything and the powder can be corrosive. A CO2 extinguisher leaves no residue and you won't need to worry about a clean up.
After having had to use a powder extinguisher in anger, I now have a quite large CO2 one. It'll put out small houses. but gives me the excess capacity I can rely on.
Having worked as a 1st responder 35 years for the gas utility in St. Louis, Mo, I couldn’t agree with you more on your selection of fire extinguishers. As a firefighter, i’m sure you know the 1st thing that should be attempted is to calmly, stop the flow of gas by clamping the line or by other approved means. If stopping the flow is not an option then you have to determine if you really want to extinguish the fire , if flame is not impeding on anything flammable or damaging ,letting it burnout maybe your best option.
@@boby115 Yes, shutting off the fuel flow is the best option. And letting it burn if it’s not causing other problems is a good option. As a fire instructor told us once, you don’t just automatically start spraying water. If it’s burning, you know where the fire is and it’s consuming the fuel instead of having it spreading out looking for an ignition source.
@@csterett For large Gas fires this is absolutely true. Let it burn and cool the neighboring stuff like buildings for example if it is a burning Gas line in the street
Wait for the Gas company to shut the line of and the fire will go out on itself
You have a much bigger Problem if the excavator manages to dig up a Gas line WITHOUT igniting the thing in the process
You really need to be careful with CO2 fire extinguishers in closed spaces. We are very reluctant to issue them to people doing hot work inside equipment/sealed rooms etc due to the asphyxiation risk.
Saying that if you set off a powder extinguisher in a kitchen you're going to have a bad time cleaning up the mess and writing off stock.
I'm 3 years in the trade and just found your channel recently. I am loving your long format videos where you show your thought process throughout the job. Your mentality and realism is refreshing and encouraging to me to keep doing the work I do and to always do better. Thank you for your videos!
I do this for a livinf for 30 years. You really know your stuff well. Great job.
Currently in adult education for HVACR and if it wasn’t for you and my great instructor I would have no clue what you were doing or even talking about. Love showing your videos to my small class of 10. Always grabs everyone’s attention and helps us see and understand what our instructor is saying. Thank you
Oh that would be the dream. To make a set of vids to use in a class, and get paid for it.
@@ICountFrom0 hmm, what a novel idea, you might have something there, sparky.
Great video as always, I had the pleasure of working on a r-290 ultra low temp freezer that is a cascade refrigeration setup yesterday, the R-290 is on both loops kind of, the high temp loop is r-290 and the low temp is R-290 blended with R-170. Thankfully nothing was really wrong with it because I really didn't want to deal with having to blend refrigerants properly, it just needs to be defrosted, the customer wasn't too thrilled about that because defrosting that unit means it's basically down for 2 days, 24 hrs to defrost and 12 hours to pull temp down. Also yes this is a normal problem for these because it has no self defrost and it is running a -80C box temp with an evap that is basically a cold well turned on its side and if you defrosted it with heaters it would destroy the product so a yearly (or more often if they open the door a lot) shutdown defrost is a necessary evil like it or not.
Those cascade systems are a witch to keep going.
@@Nighthawke70 ya tell me about it and the customer wants to fight with me about defrosting it because it needs to be down for 36 hours to defrost and return to operating temp. To add insult to injury I can't get the manager to stop scraping the inside walls of the box (which is the coil in this system) with a car ice scraper.
30:40 NEW NUGGET OF KNOWLEDGE UNLOCKED!
I always wondered why sometimes after adjusting my ball valves closed, it will have a sharp rise in pressure! I didn't know they could hold pockets of air. Now I know to activate them throughout the evacuation to make sure they're evacuated too! Thank you, man!
Well done as always! If I had to do this txv replacement I would have also cut the right side lineset a few inches back, done my txv welds outside the box so I could be SURE not to mess it up. Then just do the normal copper welds inside the box. Seems that would have been a little easier and you're less likely to mess up the welds and have to cool it off and try again! Btw all of the txv straps are the worst, how do those things even work!? I swear I just hope to make them work when I have to install it haha
Great video as always!
Manitowoc ice machines use the same tree of valve, I’ve always used 15% solder and as long as you don’t try to build a cap and just let it flow, it usually works pretty good. To be fair Manitowoc includes a how to braze instruction sheet and sometimes they even provide a pre fluxed stick of solder. Good times!
Have been soldering lots of those expansion valves with 15%, just heating the copper up, no direct flame on the stainless until the last touch.
Never had any problem with the copper straps as the danfoss valves are delivered with.
Zero% stick flows easier melts at a lower temp and works better.
Roll Silver Bearing solder is used on 1-1/8 on up and Mapp gets it hot enough to work.
Also Bacharach makes a badass handheld leakdetecor. Does combustible gas as well as refrigerant. It's called the informant 2
When you were putting the new filter dryer on should you have sanded before inserting it at 25:31
They are making small R290/R600 recovery tanks now. Place that tank into a vacuum and it will take in the charge. I don’t really recommend venting in an enclosed space. In a pinch, I have used a leak tight plastic bag and just vented it outside. But a bottle is preferred.
Thank you for your proper and informative videos! Even though I don't work with anything related to refrigeration, I still learn a lot! 🎉
When you said that you have to vent the charge to atmosphere I got instant anxiety. I do residential and know nothing about R-290. Great video!!
I would have taken the coil out and worked the txv, but watching you at work is inspiring and looks alot smoother than I think
What about writing on that panel behind the txv "Brazed with silver then the date"?
Looking for to the r454b refrigerant coming out for residential cooling. Leaking evaporator sitting over a gas fired furnace. What could go wrong.
Hey but we saved the planet though from 410a
No worries, 454b is half 410A anyway...
It isnt directly combustible... only mildly flammable.
Great video ! Great advice Sir. Follow proper HC refrigeration practices and it can be done safely. I work with HC refrigerants everyday. I sweat and braze every connection. Properly remove the threat and the the system is not much different then any non-HC system. If a technician is not comfortable working with HC’s , get proper training.
Here in France brazing on R600a or R290a is forbidden. We have to use Lockring style stuff.But often times you just can't because of the lack of space in those units, so every HVAC tech brazes anyway including myself. I turn the cooking hood on full blast then go on. Btw those stainless steel TXVs and Rotalock valves are a pain in the neck to sweat correctly!
Chris admiro tú responsabilidad, tú manera de ver las cosas, la forma de inspeccionar el problema a resolver pero sobre todo admiro tu forma de enseñar y dar consejos a tus seguidores. Gracias por todo eso. Saludos desde Coacalco Edo de México.
Otra cosa. Como hago yo para poder comprar en tú negocio y la tienda de herramientas nuevamente muchas gracias.
14:02 just swage the 5/16” copper ever so slightly so that it fits snugly inside the 3/8” line and slightly swage the 3/8” if necessary. I had to do this Monday on a leak search and repair on an old R407c Trane RTU package unit and it worked fantastically, perfect leak and decay test. And I always use stay-brite 8 silver solder and stay clean flux for stainless to copper connections and I’ve never had an issue or call backs related to the repairs.
I was taught before breaking into the system for brazing to pressurise with ofn to 6bar vent vac to 2torr, then 5 bar vac 2 torr then repeat again then go for it. Great video though.
If you are doing morgue coolers, you can have customers around and they won't freak out.
Dude Idk if you've ever serviced mortuarys but let me tell you I finished a compressor change on the dead person cooler and places like that REEK of chemicals you know that chemical smell. So I finish up the compressor change out and go to get the signature. I'm just chatting with them and mention the smell of the embalming fluid and the oldest mortician looks up and said "That's not embalming! it's GIN!" 😂😂
Nearly every R290 warranty call that I did wound up being inefficient compressors. When I replaced the stainless Danfoss I always used eutectic rods and they made it very easy - maybe 1" of rod per joint. On big stuff , you could do a "root" pass with the eutectic rod, and then fill with the 15%. I've been away from restaurant equipment service for 3-1/2 years and enjoyed you using some of my old tricks. Last Glastender unit I worked on was replacing an evaporator in the bar at a Great Wolf Lodge. Bar was in the swimming area - talk about working while distracted!
which eutectic rod?
If I see stainless steel i just always use the orange rod. I swear that copper coating doesn't cut it. Also the flammable gas sensor for the stratus is super cool. It was about the same price as a dedicated leak detector but you get the functionality of the stratus.
I just did a job like that, except I set the txv up outside and used Stay Brite 8, went back in and finished off, again with stay Brite 8.
Makes me wonder why they take the odor compound out of r290 if it's basically propane. Isn't rue whole point of the odor compound in propane to let you know you've got a flammable gas leak?
Amen on that!
It's more they don't put the odor in the r290 gas (the smell is added to the gas not removed) considering how flammable it is a fridge could blow up a building if it leaked
@@leexgx lol no. most r290 refrigerators don't hold much gas that a leak can cause explosion and blow up the building.
Agreed with LordJasshin. It's not like a camping gas cylinder that holds a full pound of gas, we're talking only a few grams.
Someone else pointed out in another comment that the odorant (mercaptan) might mix unfavorably with the oil.
I imagine it could also create problems as a noncondensible, especially on these ultra-tiny critically-charged systems, where even a percent of the stuff could throw off the delicate balance of the system.
I believe the filter/drier would filter out the mercaptan and thus reducing the effectiveness of the molecule sieve material in the drier.
Question, why didn't you weld the txv tails outside of the cabinet and then weld the tails liquid and suction line to coil block?
Hi I wanted to ask you if the new dryers that use r290 gas are at risk of catching fire due to the refrigerant r290 which is very flammable?I mean, if there is a small or big gas leak inside a dryer
Thanks
Sometime when the clamp given problem with the sensor we use stainless steel hose clamp. It work great. Broad stainless steel hose clamp
R290 is not hard to work with, just have to be smart with it.
Agree the most irritating thing about r-290 is process stubs instead of factory access valves which is irritating on any unit.
Not hard just annoying adding access ports and resealing the system is so annoying 😂😂😂
Nooo what you talking about it's crazy dangerous
😂😂😂😂😂😂
Every time I light my cig with my r290
Dispenser i get my eod suit 😂😂😂😂😂
That's a bit of a blanket statement, no ?
The other day I was doing a compressor on a 410a split system. I was running out of nitrogen and I swept what I could but when I unsweat the discharge line it had a mild flame out. I didn't panic, but when I turned my torches off I had the bright idea to turn the oxygen back on and try to blow the fire out by blasting oxygen into the discharge line. BAM it popped like a loud firecracker. Luckily nothing bad happened. Left to go get more nitrogen after that. I guess it was a good idea to me at the time with my heat addled brain, could've been real bad. Can't be lazy like that with hydrocarbons, that's for sure
@tommyq374 yeah it was a dumb move and I definitely knew better, just let my intrusive thoughts win I guess. Usually I'd just turn the nitrogen way up and it'd snuff out the fire.
Strangely enough, it wasn't the _worst_ idea. What you did is quite literally blew out the flame, while rapidly cooling the metal. You also diluted the fuel. Yeah, you diluted with the oxidizer (oxygen), but it's still diluted. When the fuel is dispersed enough, the reaction halts.
Another good video man. Purchased the scale. I was using the larger normal scale. WTF. Im coming across more and more R290 each week. Had to get gauges with the smaller micro hoses just for R290.
This is the first time viewing your channel, and I really like your content. One quick question: I noticed you replaced the screw fittings on the refrigerant lines where you were flowing nitrogen. Why did those fittings need to be replaced? Thanks for the great video. I liked and subscribed.
In tight areas like that, I'll give you a little tip for brazing. Dial your torch down to a finer tip to shorten you flame and you can run it a little cooler since you'll be using the blue and white portion of the tip. Use the tip of the flame on top of the tubing feathering back and forth on the joint so you're pointing down and the tubing is blocking most of the flame. (In the video, you're putting a lot of heat on those evaporator fins). Put your solder on the bottom. Let the heat of the torch draw that solder up. That way you can easily see when it's hot enough and you know it's soldered all the way around. It also takes less time so your at less of a risk of overheating the txv or catching heat shields and rags on fire, It takes a little practice with the torch to feather the heat back and forth from the female side of the joint to the male side, but it's a much safer, easier, and more trustworthy way to braze. On vertical joints, I do the same thing. I always have my torch and solder on opposite sides. Much less chance of over heating. If you made it glow, you're already too hot and you're creating flakes "inside" the tubing that can become restrictions down the road.
Also, you're making more work for yourself sweating off ports and the lines to the dryer if you have length to use a tubing cutter and have a nice new end to just debur and sand instead of having to put old solder into a new dryer hole or when putting ports back on. Just an observation to save you time and work with new ends.
Lastly, I think your flame out was not from pockets of gas, but the gas that is mixed in with the compressor oil. Open to atmosphere, it was likely just off gassing the whole time you were waiting for your txv and installing it, and that close to the compressor, you had enough propane vapor to create that little flame out. A good high pressure purge with nitrogen before working that end might have prevented that.
When the compressor fails I put an AE 4440 with cap tube or valve change
A couple fittings, some hose, a flashback arrestor and Bernzomatic type torch head would be a cheap way to flare off the charge safely. Also, to alert future techs about the silver solder joints you could use a labelmaker label denoting that wrapped around the tubing close to the joint.
So a few weeks ago the walk-in at work was dripping onto the floor. The diagnosis was clogged PVC pipe between drain pan and condensate pump. Pipe was disassembled, cleaned, and reassembled. Last week, the problem returned, it was allegedly "fixed."
Tonight, I noticed the coil was STILL dripping onto the floor. So I got in to take a closer look... And the drain line comes straight down from the drain pan into an elbow, then slopes UPHILL to another elbow before taking a turn and following the walls of the walk-in and through the box wall to the condensate pump.
Yes, you read that correctly, the water must first flow UPHILL before going DOWNHILL to the pump. Seriously, I couldn't believe my eyes when I saw it, I took a picture and put it in our group chat with the message, "I think the problem is that water doesn't flow uphill very well. 🤪"
FFS, do I have to do EVERYTHING myself?! (Not for minimum wage, that's for sure!)
48:57 - WEBELOS - Holy flippin' heck, that takes me back!
I think you did the right thing by taking that cooler out-of-service. Yes, the chances of ignition are slim, but you make very valid points. If the concentration is high enough, the door seals are tight enough, and it happens to get near arcing brushes in a fan (or dip to the bottom of the box, slightly seep out near a contactor or whatnot), KABLOOEY. I know there are mere ounces in the system, and the risk is minuscule, but why take the gamble? When it comes to R-290, an explosive odorless colorless gas, why not err on the side of caution?
Let's be blunt here. We live in a society. A society that is litigious in nature, and trending more so. Cover your butt whenever possible. Double-check, or even triple-check, your work.
I like the smaller jeweler type torch that had the little fabric exterior hoses.
But you can't have anything on the gad line. It pinches then off.
But that little jewler torch has a smaller heat area. Seem quicker safer and easier to move around. I can get it into tighter spots too.
Can you use Staybrite 8 for those lines? It would sure make it a lot easier and help keep from burning up other parts.
I like how it's super dangerous and we don't' want it leaking and filling up the space... So we just vent it into the space. lol. I got a good laugh for that one.
Good vid...I would have put a 448a valve in it then charged it with 448a .... no liability problems. What everyone is missing is the 290 mixes with the poe and becomes napalm. Look up refrigerant explosions.
great videos, i appreciate you posting them! helping me to def learn more
What a ball buster of a job! I use turbo torches to do all my soldering and I think it’s a little better in tighter circumstances. Oxsee acetylene I’m always afraid of overheating and burning through the pipe and it doesn’t go around the pipe as well. Maybe staybrite #8 on that expansion valve? Got to have all the tips if you go with a turbo torch. Either way, what a bear of a job. I am impressed with all your videos. You exercise a lot of extreme patience, and I don’t have that ability. I could not make videos I would use too much profanity in my language.!!
Thank you so much for this upload. I've learnt so much and it's interesting to see how you diagnose problems and things that you look out for before deciding how to go about fixing it.
😂😂 5/16 swagged to 3/8 I feel your pain on that one bro. I had to buy some 5/16 just because I got tired of dealing with it and definitely have made some very creative welds 😂
Also I weld those with the orange rod dude. It goes on so well. I’ve made repairs on that very weld that you found and I hit it with the rough sand and the orange rod flows right in dude like magic. It works really good on tricky welds where you have oil contamination too
I do really like how these refrigerants are zero ODP low GWP - just one drawback to using in my car. Can you smell R290 like regular propane? Or does the odorant damage the system?
Some people say "R12 is the best it gets the coldest" but Ive found that 134a gets a little colder (290 and 600a a lot colder) but 12 would take longer to get cold. Is this because it has a high heat capacity and is efficient (R12)?
that looked like hell and scary to repair, love hvac stuff but fear the nightmare stuff you can run into on the job site
I recently bought a small chest freezer... WITH R600A... Pentane.
R-290 is just pure propane. Also it takes so so little on most the small units it's not that dangerous. Back in the late 90's people just dumped propane tanks when the new valves came out. It's a very powerful voc but other than that the risks are low it's only a few dozen grams vs like a 1pound+ camping tank
Yeah, I don’t know why these guys are so scared of it. When you open the system just use nitrogen to push it out of the system. Then replace the evaporator coil or compressor as normal R134a system and put a service valve at processing port and high liquid side. Then charge the system with manufacture suggested amount.
It kinda strange that some of the systems call for so little that it's crazy. less than 200 gram, I have lighters with more butane than the entire system has. It's only downside is poor cold weather performance, so it's basically useless for heat pumps.
I have a 2 stage cascade system I build to get near cryogenic temps on my gaming pc. Using propane and ethane. I have a custom removable 3rd stage I can use to make liquid air I use electro magnets to draw out liquid oxygen and collect dryice after pouring off the liquid nitrogen. This system is OK at best I can make around 10gal a day of ln2, 2lb of dryice, and 1/2gal of liquid oxygen.
@@UltraHydrophobiccoat so u are saying to converted to a R134a system by replacing the evaporator and compressor that’s an R134a. Then recharge to the mfg. specs. You know that’s never gonna work long terms.
Not 'just propane' it's refined and dehydrated for optimal ref. use.
@UltraHydrophobiccoat except True service procedures require the access ports be removed after service...
That is some green new deal nonsense to keep beer cold! When I started 43 years ago 22,12 and 502 is all we carried. No wonder why a good tech makes 6 figures these days! Nice job I would have been dropping F bombs left and right.Great job I feel your pain
I do residential appliance repair. When I am doing a compressor on r600 all the tubing comes the same size and you need to make a sleeve, swedging the tube cracks and splits the tube because its pretty thin. the evaps are even worse if they develop a leak and suck the compressor oil inside. I just cut out those evaps or you will have an exploding coil.
I just found your channel while researching the posible cause that my R290 monster refrigerator is not getting to temperature. I live in Rancho Cucamonga CA. Do you work in this area?
Yeah I’m based out of Jurupa Valley and we service the Inland Empire and Orange County. What’s going on with your Refrigerator?
@@HVACRVIDEOS It has ice built up on the coil and it does not get down to temp. It is only get to about 48 degrees
Love the vids! Quick question as far as I know most manufactures want you to crimp and seal the system and not to have permanent stubs on the system. I myself think that’s BS because makes it harder to work on and can potentially be dangerous even thought you are suppose to crimp then soap the end and then braze. What’s your take on that?
I don't pinch them off anymore, I did when I first started working with r290 but it's one less thing to do and I'd rather not have my employees braze them shut cause it's a bit sketchy
Exactly my thoughts. It’s significantly safer to leave the access ports on there than to risk starting a fire or cause an explosion soldering them closed.
As a child apprentice I worked on a walk-in with METHYL CHLORIDE as the refrigerant.
It's not flammable for long as it goes directly to explosive !
Do I need to buy separate gauges for R290? Where can I get your R290 hoses? Are those 6” long hoses?
I worked on an oil cooler that had a stainless steel heat exchanger once. It was leaking where the TXV feeder tubes were brazed into the heat exchanger.
Took me an embarrassing amount of time to find out about 56% silver rods.
But, I also used them to fix a fryer basket once. Lol
your attitude and mine are different when it comes to unhooking things. I always just unplug it, snap a pic of it unplugged along with an out of order tag on the whatever which I also photo. lastly I put it in the paperwork that they were warned the product is out of order. if they turn it back on its on them that's enough to show it wasn't my fault. its a if they want to risk it go do it but I'm not responsible. the power of having a camera in your pocket is incredible peoples
They should leave the mercaptan in it. You'd know pretty quick you have a leak somewhere.
Are you sure the merkaptan would stay distributed across the gas and won't get e.g. absorbed into the compressor oil? Because then it would become even more dangerous, when people would be expecting "no smell - no leak", so feeling falsely safe and so not taking proper care.
Mercaptan is an organic and being in the presence of heat will decompose and make the oil acidic.
What size tip did you use
if i were in your shoes on this one; i'd silver solder it on a bench and leave myself two easy copper-copper joints to do in the cabinet. for me anything that isn't copper-copper should be silver soldered
Love your videos...
Great work practices...
EXCEPTIONAL RESPONSIBLE BUSINESS OWNER!!!
Bronx Love brother 😎
Sir great content, I would suggest while weld in that particular area is very difficult, use stainless steel plate and bend it like hook, and attached it in your welding torch,you can easily weld it, and I'm sure you will amaze the result. Sharing is good sir, that why I want share with you my experience. Thank you very much. Great job.
I watched 1 video where they used shark bite fittings. No brazing. Are they dependable?
Question…. Why do you flow Nitrogen whilst you’re welding?
Maybe i missed you saying some things but. #1, you may have been able to solder the leak, not replacing the txv. #2 units like this sometimes you are better putting a orifice in place of the txv. The ss txv's are awful.
I have to ask could you have cross referenced the danfoss txv to a sporlan and Brazed in a sporlan txv ????
I don’t feel comfortable doing that with an r290 system, the liability is than on me….
Do you have any vids charging cascade system with blended refs? Subzero freezer?
You should use a hose clamp and bend a spoon at the tip of your torch and it’ll keep you from burning anything on the other side of what your brazing in.
Have you tried the blue stick 45 or the orange stick 56? I loke it much better than the roll
Good work. Great advice, too.
I made up a set of fittings with the rectorseal pro fit connectors. That way I can weigh in a charge and re seal the system.
that brazing compound you used to protect the drier, do you use it again or throw it away after?
You can reuse it again
Definitely a diverse refrigerant! I've got it in both of my trucks. One was r22 and the other was r134a. The txv system is definitely a lot better at handling it. Just charge to 55psi on the suction side. Run the engine at highway RPM and make sure it doesn't pull into a vacuum
It's midsummer festivities in the nordics, which means today Friday is a bank holiday for most. Was gonna go to my neighbour and top up his split type AC. I've installed it in 2011, a Mitsubishi FD25. Well it was as good as empty. Well thought I'd top it up so he'll manage the weekend. Tried that, has a huge leak in the indoor unit coil. I quickly turned it on and pumped it down, with the refrigerant in the outdoor unit. Luckily I had a spare FD35 indoor unit at home so fetched it and switched the indoor units. So a ten minute job turned to three hours (my spare indoor unit was in an outdoor storage so had to clean it before I installed it)
Great Video. Thank you for sharing
can you link your torch kit?
I've been an HVAC tech for about 15 years now. I have yet to work on or go down the road of any flammable refrigerants. So my main question is, having not researched it myself, does the EPA allow for venting of R290?
Yup. But obviously be aware of the surroundings
No different than turning on the BBQ grill, they dump propane till they light.
Is it normal now industry wide to leave access fittings on R290 systems?
Yeah
If this is already in the comments, sorry. I was wondering if it would have helped to remove that drip plate that is below the evaporator coil? From what I see it is a few screws and you would gain a lot of work space. Even reach in from below if needed?
Had ports on it! Or you put piercing valves on it?
If so what temp piercing valves you like? The vise grip style, don't work for me.
I use the clamp on type, when I use them..
Techs leaving valve in the r290 systems?
Right. Maybe if we wrote "propane" on there instead of "R-290" people wouldn't need to be reminded it's flammable.
I see a lot of comments about leaving the odor agent in it... Would that interfere chemically?
Someone suggested that it could react with the compressor oil, or otherwise end up "clumping up" and not be evenly distributed through the gas.
I imagine it could also create a problem physically by acting as a noncondensible.
Since R290 boxes tend to be so tiny and critically charged, even a small amount of stuff with a different phase change behavior could throw everything off.
R-290 is an A2 refrigerant, the new stuff rolling out is an A2L which is mildly flammable, you can hold a lighter to it, it won't ignite but it also won't blow the flame out either least the tests I've seen of A2L
R290 is an A3 refrigerant (highly flammable and unoderized) but you are correct about the A2L they can light but they wont sustain the flame
@@HVACRVIDEOS yup correct, i was thinking 406a is A2 which was also used in commercial coolers but is toxic when burnt while R290 is a A3 which is non-toxic when burnt
👍Nice job on a very tight area
I appreciate you making the video
For fun, ask your Sporlan rep why their charts only go to 100 pound differential on their TXV's.
The real answer is they never realized it could work with even a 1 pound differential.
Be sure you have a suction accumulator and you can flood the evaporator.
It will float the head way way way down.
I had to do that in Alaskan villages as AC electric power was already over taxed so the compressors RLA dropped down too!
Warranty jobs don't pay close to what our street rates are but the company I work for, we're getting to that point with a few places which is really good.
So far for r290 I only came across a bad controller. I'm crossing fingers that I don't have to do complete change out. I guess for r290 you don't have to recover. Just vent it as long the room also vent and no spark source. Thanks for doing video on this one.
I’ve substituted butane for r-22 in my car, with great results.
My suggestion is to tag tx stating what it is soldered with in case it need to be done again.
Hey chris great work dude! In my opinion i would assemble that txv outside the box soldering with little copper segments in each side, then throw it inside and just braze copper, think would be easier to braze and inspect. What do you think? Keep up w the great content
I'm less than novice but I have a question. Could you replace with a brass txv ?
8:40...I can already feel the cuts and scrapes on your hand from that coil!!!
I myself will be working in the field with it this week and I'm going to start my externship for 180 hours I'm a little nervous but idk how it's going to be
Sorry for the question, why is it important for a technician to know if silver brazing have been used?
My guy getting mauled by that Evap coil trying to remove that cork tape. I feel that man sucks
i use silver solder on those what are not copper, better safe than sorry :D , and for those R290 refrigerant cylinders, i hate those small ones what are also available here, but here are also those bigger 5kg cylinders, lot's of "easier" to use.
R290 is just dry propane.
Most likely it (flame) was a little oil in the line/dryer.
Pull a vacuum first and while under vacuum turn on the nitrogen.
R290 actually works better than R22. Similar glide and carries oil more efficiently.
A little R600/R600A helps if you mix it in.
Watching these hvac videos makes me want to get a free fridge and take it apart and put it back together
I've heard of a lady's R600a refrigerator blowing through the wall (like the demo on the movie "Fight Club"). Does this level of explosion happen when a low side leak develops and it sucks oxygen in? I know how a car engine works...