Fifth Avenue UMC Property Seized By Conference
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 3 ส.ค. 2024
- Recently the North Carolina Annual Conference of the United Methodist Church declared "Exigent Circumstances" and seized the property of Fifth Avenue United Methodist Church, a 175 year old congregation in Wilmington North Carolina. The members of the church, some who have been members their entire lives, were completely blindsided by the act. The congregation, whose members were beginning the process of disaffiliation, were locked out of the building after their final service on Easter. In this video we take a look at what happened with this historic church.
Show Notes:
NC Annual Conference Press Release:
nccumc.org/news/2023/03/wilmi...
Affidavit:
wesleyancovenant.org/wp-conte...
Fifth Avenue Congregation Press Release:
juicyecumenism.com/wp-content...
UM Data Church Profile:
umdata.org/ChurchProfile.aspx?...
Church Facebook Page:
/ 5thaveumc
Christian Post Article:
www.christianpost.com/news/nc...
WCA Article:
wesleyancovenant.org/2023/04/...
It May Happen to You, Too Article:
juicyecumenism.com/2023/04/12...
There needs to be a court case over this. The UMC cannot be allowed to do this unfettered.
My parent's Methodist Church went through the same thing when the congregation decided that the UMC no longer reflected the values and teachings they held dear. They had to pay through the nose in order to retain the building that the members had given tirelessly their whole lives for. It's so unfair. This needs to be major news in the church circles.
Agreed. Email me the details with documentation at plainspokenpod@gmail.com!
Sounds to me that once again, the UMC leadership failed miserably. No consideration was given to that congregation, but locked them out without notice to “ protect assets” for them? Really? I am grateful for the day I checked the box to walk away from the UMC. I feel free and a part of a newly established GMC.
So sad, but a great, and fair, coverage of the facts as you can obtain them. With "non-disclosure" and "confidentiality" the cloak behind which the UMC orchestrates its clandestine objectives, the truth of the motivation behind this destruction of a church will never be made public.
I am in North Carolina and a lay leader for one of the twelve UMC churches in Wilmington. I know firsthand about the 5th Avenue situation and had the opportunity to speak on the floor during the discerning portion prior to voting for or against closing the church at the annual conference this Friday Due to what I was told from people who attended that meeting, I spoke against closing the church.
Immediately after I spoke, my pastor (appointed last year) sent me a text stating that as of January 2024 I will no longer be the lay leader for my church. So yes sadly there is bullying if you speak out any truth you may know and/or take a position they do not agree with.. Would love to discuss further with you if you are interested. I didn't share the following during my speech but I know the Ministries that will probably utilize that building and there's a whole another story to what is going on.
Thanks for the information. Sad when leadership doesn’t follow their rules of the original disaffiliation process, or set a good example of grace.
Wow. Remember attending services there years ago with a friend. This: " The congregation, whose members were beginning the process of disaffiliation, were locked out of the building after their final service on Easter." - What timing! Callous! I find this whole debacle so 'un-Christian' in the way it was handled. Cruel even.
I'm surprised this hasn't happened all over the US. I think we may see more of this happening over the next couple of months where disaffiliation may be a "threat".
@@Peachcreekmedia IMHO this has nothing to do with the stated purpose
This is purely a power move by the bishop and the powers that be at the conference level. This is an additional church trying to disaffiliate (possibly) and the conference doesn’t want to lose prime real estate. It has nothing to do with being connectional (or congregational) for that matter
It has nothing to do with Jesus.
It is completely about power and money.
That’s what my research says
@@Peachcreekmediaexcept that in doing so, Annual Conferences and Bishops are violating the BOD (p. 2553) that gives local congregations the right to disaffiliate with their buildings. Violating the BOD again, I might add. And in violating the BOD and going against the will of the General Conference, it's the Annual Conferences and Bishops that are dismantling and violating connectionalism. But you, Mr. Pone, as a water carrying institutionalist would think the way you're thinking.
My heart is too heavy about what is happening to your church.
Wilmingtonian here; just to clarify, one GMC church here now, other traditionalist current United Methodists heading to Fifth Ave. Methodist due to disillusionment with UMC, had they disaffiliated.. This is considered highly unjust to these people who have attended and supported this church for generations. Am surmising that the bishop and ds realized they (Fifth Ave. Methodist,) could be a magnet for traditional UM members who want to go GMC in a classic, beautiful downtown church.
Pat, I think I understand you, but let me make sure: The Fifth Ave church was probably about to see an influx of conservative UMC members from other local churches who would together soon compose a GMC church in that property. So the conference closed the property, not just to end the disaffiliation process at one local church, but also to work against the GMC's potential flourishing through that building. Did I get that right?
@PlainSpoken This is speculation, however to clarify, we have one GMC church within city limits that has gone GMC. Traditionalists are flocking there, and it's growing by leaps and bounds. However, the UMC downtown church with traditional church services voted 2 to 1 NOT to consider the issues and vote. So those traditionalist MAY have moved to 5th Ave, had they not had their disaffiliation process SHUT DOWN and the church confiscated by the bishop and district superintendent.
Jeffrey, I am a person of reason, and I love your measured approach. At what point should we call evil by its name and take measures to resist it?
Duncan, there are a lot of folks who speak openly about the evil they see. I have a mode I can go into in which I do that. I don't notice that I'm especially persuasive in those times. I'm trying to be a version of myself in which I'm able to somewhat dispassionately talk about things in a way that folks on different sides would recognize as the truth. Once I start using the lexicon of good/evil, a lot of folks tune out. Whether or not someone actually is evil, if they don't FEEL evil, they won't receive the rebuke.
Now, with respect to resisting evil, folks should, at the beginning of their Christian journey, all commit to resisting evil in the heavenly realms using the armor of God. If they aren't doing so, they are still dead in their sins. Yet resisting evildoers, evil worldly structures, etc. is another thing. Each individual and each church needs to discern how they can do this with a clear conscience. I'm much less clear on what everyone should be doing outside of simply speaking truth and acting with integrity.
@@plainspokenpod Terrific answer! You are wise to choose the dispassionate path and disciplined to stay on it.
Being a member of a conservative congregation in the N. Georgia Conference, my frustration comes from two sources. One is seeing organized action from the left that is not met with any similarly organized counter-action from the right. The second is the refusal of those on the left to engage with us in open discussion about the Godly way to settle differences. They won't even say what their concerns are.
You are brave to speak the truth clearly, but the other side is simply ignoring voices like yours. The other side is good at organizing protests and mounting pressure to bring decision-makers to the table. I wonder if our unwillingness to do likewise makes us culpable in the damage that is being done to God's local churches right before our eyes.
@@hunker1982 You and I think along very similar lines. The truth is that those on the right have adopted a lot of theology that essentially neuters us in spiritual battle. The deck is stacked in favor of liberalism. Without swift and harsh punishment for violation of our covenant, we were always doomed. Expecting for everyone to act in good faith was silly. We made the bed we are laying in right now.
It's really clear here, The UMC see's the building and it's property worth more than its people. It's all about the money. Sorry to be so blunt, but it's true.
Maybe. I think what may speak more loudly is, if the people are going, the UMC sure isn't going to let them keep their stuff, if they can help it. The UMC has no scruples about using its power to disenfranchise vulnerable populations that want to leave. The UMC cares about people, but only insofar as they don't want to leave or stand against them. They have been overcome by partisanship.
A 170 years old church with declining congregation, why haven't a bishop or a district superintendent help this church to grow.and thrive. I believe that this move is more about disaffiliation..Local church is where people are saved by grace and grow in the Lord.
Shannon, I'm sure the bishop and DS would argue that the conference has done a lot over the years to help this church rebound, and that the church has been noncompliant. If I were the conference leadership, I would make the case that a church restart, led by the conference, would have much greater chances of reaching more people and doing more good than if they were to leave it in the hands of the previous community of faith. I believe that is the angle they are taking.
All that is beside the point, though. The point is that the UMC has tried to be an umbrella for mutually exclusive theologies. These brutish power plays are the natural byproduct of longterm dysfunction.
And it's not about retaining history, it's about worshipping God, no revision of theology and scripture.
Keep an eye on Alabama west Florida. I have a feeling after annual conference they will block anymore exits even though we have nov called conference. 193 ( pot of 480) are on the docket for may ( almost half )
The church doesn't have to have walls. I'm so sorry you are losing the buildings you and your ancestors worked hard for.
Let's take ministry to the streets, homes, parks, jails, orphanages, and so on
It's sad to see her do this because that is not the legacy she left in Mississippi. She was kind the couple of times I met her. But it starts to make me think that she was just hiding it all because we are very conservative conference
Speaking of "mean spirited arrogance" Bishop....... She has a definite air of "Karen" about her.
Bear in mind the value of this downtown real estate.; tax record/GIS New Hanover County records say 2.6 million. You are absolutely correct. This is wrong. David vs. Goliath, thou shalt not steal, Do undo others as you would have them do unto you.
Very helpful comment. I didn't know how to look up the property value. It is hard not to see that as a relevant factor in all this...
To clarify- the value is based on a mass appraisal - not an individual. And, and, and extrodinary assumptions are made based on overall condition.
In listening to the statement made by the person who donated the property, I wonder if the congregation has a good chance in winning a legal challenge. I don't think it specified that a certain number had to be present, only that the gospel be preached.
Yeah if the entire case rested on the original bequest, I'd imagine it would be worth a legal challenge. But I think there are a few different levels on which the conference could argue for ownership. It's hard to imagine such a small community being able to marshal the legal resources to challenge the conference. But one article did mention legal representation, so I guess we'll see.
I'm wanting to interview people who can tell the stories of what has happened in other denominations that were taken over by the left. If there's anyone you know of who would be willing to do an interview about what the PCUSA did to that church community, please put them in contact with me at plainspokenpod@gmail.com
Fifth Avenue UMC has filed a law suit against the North Carolina Conference for closing the church during the month of March...action which was later approved by the Annual Conference in June. The Bishop 's comments about the suit can be found on the NC Conference web page.
Excuse my (TJ) sloppy editing. I apparently deleted my audio at around the 28:40 mark. I just point out that when we spoke with the local contact we asked if there was a pressing need in that particular area for a UM community resource center that the conference plans to use the building for. Her response was that while there is a need in most places for such a center it is not more of a concern in that area than in anywhere else in the city.
Hey, not at all criticism- it’s just a weird thing that I notice; not a huge deal at all, but I have to point these things out whenever I see them (yes, please pray for me) - You misspelled Seize in the screenshot for the video.
Again, I was born with this abnormality that causes me to notice things like this 😂😂😂
Not very far away from 5th Avenue UMC was Devon Park UMC which was not a "hostile takeover" but which is now a "pet project" of the Conference. Devon Park's Closing Service was on October 31, 2021. Just look at what had been and what is currently there today -- no steeple and no cross & flame! So, why does the Conference need another "ministrial" project location? Devon Park (located in a residential community) definitely did not have the "history" or "elegant" structure compared to 5th Avenue and both were being very well taken care of by the membership maintenance wise and financially. For no other reasons than greed and to bully did this inappropriate closing occur, in my humble opinion.
I was not particularly fond of the comment made in the presentation along the lines that there are 13 other UMCs in Wilmington so why can the membership not attend one of those!!!! What would you think if your family was one of the original founders 175+ years ago -- going elsewhere would NOT be a positive option!
I am just very happy that I now worship at PVMC which is GMC. I continue to pray for all -- especially those in Conferences where lawsuits have become the norm to disaffiliate! As of May 19, 2023 there have been 1583 UMCs allowed to disaffiliate in 2023 alone from a posting on FB I saw. I apologize for the lengthy post -- take care & have a great day! I really did appreciate the vast majority of the PodCast!
Keep the comments coming! The length is great. To talk about worthy things, one has to give worthy space.
I wish I had known about Devon Park before making this video. Definitely a pertinent piece of information in this puzzle, as it came before Shelton's time. It would seem paternal minds already prevailed before her time.
Thanks for your engagement and support, Linda!
Might there be an endowment fund that allows this small congregation to upkeep and maintain the church property? I am aware of other older church's that have low attendance and marginal cash flow yet maintain a massive reserve account to cover expenses. Do those reserves follow a disaffiliating congregation?
A note about the rationale being preserving the property due to the intent of the original donor: when he gave it for worship/preaching to the Methodist Episcopal Church, South, that denomination had only existed for 3 years, having separated from the original denomination, ME Church in 1844-45. It could be argued that a GMC congregation would be just as much (maybe more) a heir to this heritage as the current UMC.
Yeah so many of our problems are from people of the past just trusting that things would work out, coupled with unscrupulous people in the present feeling no shame at coopting the gifts of previous generations in the service of a worldly agenda.
Which conference and which properties ? Which means they are breaking off
When you unfollow the bible,this is what happens, you have total chaos!this woman sounded like she is blaming the ones that want real truth of the bible!!!so sad and the southern Baptists are not far behind this cult!!!
I personallly suspect some folk outside the congregation were trying to influence this church although, I don’t know this to be true. What I do know - as it pertains to this individual church we haven’t all the details. On the surface this video appears to be click bait and highly inappropriate.
I'm not sure I understand what you're saying. Are you saying the church wasn't actually seized by the conference, and that I'm speaking with more clarity than the facts at hand really support? Why would it be inappropriate to make this video? I'm confused.
@@plainspokenpod in the words of the greatest WR ever to wear a Viking uniform, Chris Carter, “C’Mon Man!” As credentialed clergy, you know there is more to the story - you didn’t have all the facts and your choice of the word seized, not closed for instance appears to be deliberate - it rings of clickbait and imo was inappropriate. I did find it interesting some commenters were sad the GMC/Traditionalist most likely will not be taking over this property. Hmmm - these are crazy times to be a UM.
-Blessings
@@runningwithscissors3997 So I think maybe you just have a different threshold of knowledge needed to speak on a given topic. I preach on mysteries I don't understand every Sunday. I do my best, hoping it is helpful to those who listen. Same concept here. I'm eager to volunteer that surely every single topic I report on is more nuanced and complicated than I am able to render. I offer what I do because silence is, to my understanding, more harmful than imperfect speech. If I said something false, please correct me. I believe what the conference did easily lends itself to the definition of 'seizing.' I think I take your critique to be that I could have used a less charged word. Well, for the folks at that church, things are pretty charged. For folks looking at potentially losing their property and assets, things are pretty charged. I think the word is appropriate. So whatever is obvious to you in this particular circumstance is not obvious to me.
@@plainspokenpodagree to disagree. I hope you and your church get to where you want to be - at times though it appears clergy leaving are trying to burn the house down as they do so.
-Blessings.