Old School "Pelvis Breakers" .38 Special "Super Police" 213 gr LRN
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 15 มิ.ย. 2024
- Testing some 213 gr lead round nose .35 Remington rifle bullets loaded into .38 Special loads, known as the .38 Super Police. The idea here is to make a very long bullet move slow enough to tumble and thus cause massive damage. Thank you Angelo for these bullets you sent me around 2018-2019! / @leadbullets4life Always appreciative of any channel help :) www.patreon.com/user?u=5828221
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After filming this video, I worked up a better load for these to be a specific snub nose load that achieve 703 FPS average in a snub and I tested them. They use 4.3 gr of the same powder I used here and seated deep enough for a .38 Special chamber. The loads I tested here for the 605 snub were about 1.6" overall length and didn't fit my .38 Special revolver. The new ones I made will fit a .38 Special revolver. In the upcoming test I compare them to some 90 gr 9mm+P Underwood Xtreme Defender.
Great video. Keep em' coming 👍
Ahora me estoy preguntando ¿cómo sería un 357 cargado con esas ojivas de 213 granos?
Sam you are like a scientist with these loads! Must have found an old recipe to cook up this load. Love your channel.
@@mikewithers299 Nah, just experimenting lol. You can experiment with .38 Special in any way you want to, when the revolver is a .357 Magnum revolver. Not to say these are drastically over-charged, but it's safe to push it a little if your gun is over-made for the task. I did however, just think "4.3 gr??" after I did this video, and coincidentally made exactly what I wanted with one try to average a 10 shot string of 703 FPS. I had like one that was 660 FPS but the rest were like 690 to 720 FPS.
@GunSam wish I could get into reloading but it's cost prohibitive right now. Might need to if supplies run out. Still I love the science behind each load and how you tested them. Awesome stuff brother. You are the reason I wanted the 686. Love that pea shooter ❤️
It's funny how ol' school technology can still rival modern day technology . I guess the Brits knew what they were doing back in the day with their .38S&W Webley revolver loads .I personally prefer super heavy slow rounds over faster lighter rounds . Every round you fired would pass the FBI protocol for self-defense . I love test like these , GREAT JOB Gun Sam !
The Brits used a similar heavy bullet in its revolvers during WW2, a lead 38-200 grain load. (actual weight was 215 grains) at about 600 fps which caused the bullets to tumble. Germany complained that the bullets were not humane so the Brits reduced the weight of the bullets to 178 grains which stabilized them and ended the tumbling effect. Interesting that the longer 4" barrel significantly increased the velocity and eliminated the tumbling effect. Thanks for another interesting test and review.
The loads for the longer barrel had a lot more powder in them. Two different loads I made for each revolver.
@@GunSam you are right, I forgot about that. The load for the 4" barrel was a real thumper.
The Germans complaint was from WWI with the Webley Mk VI .455 revolver. The .455 Webley was actually more devastating than the .45 LC during the Thompson LaGarde test.
@@boostimalaka1 No, the 455 bullet did not tumble., the 38-200 did and that was not in military use in WW1.
SCIENCE! At 100 yards I think you earned a Mortor Man patch
Spectacular wound cavity. Long live the 38!
I've always been fascinated by the 200 gr .38 Special loads -- once upon a time I even found a box on a gunstore's back shelves (unfortunately shot them all up many years ago). I enjoyed the channel's videos on these loads and glad you're revisiting them.
The sweet spot does seem to be between 600 - 700 fps or so.
The original 200 gr Super-Police loads weren't based on the .35 Remington bullet, but on their own unique blunt round nose design. There were factory .38 200 gr Super-Police loads for both .38 Special and .38 S&W/Colt New Police chambered revolvers. In the Lyman catalogue, the .38 Special/.38 S&W bullet was mould #358430 (195 - 200 gr) and the .35 Remington #358315 (205 - 215 gr). Two different bullets.
I believe the bullet shown in the video is the latter, rifle bullet. It's slightly heavier and a bit more aerodynamic. I've loaded that design, or something mighty similar, myself. The original .38 revolver moulds went out of production before the .35 Remington moulds, probably because the Contender and a Marlin lever rifle were still being chambered for the rifle cartridge.
I was initially dubious about the claim being originally made, back in the day, of the round's effectiveness being caused by tumbling, but I subsequently found a reference from the 1930's describing the tumbling bullet effect of those revolver loads.
So nice for a channel to have something constructive and different than 9mm micro compact commercials. As always, keep up the great work
I'm especially fond of the British .38-200 cartridge, which is our .38 S&W loaded with the same 200 grain hemispherical nose bullet, and I have a Webley Mk IV, Smith & Wesson M&P (pre Model 10) Lend-Lease that went to Australia, and a British Military Contract Colt Official Police chambered for it. All 5" barrels, which was standard for England and Commonwealth countries at the time. I handload a historically accurate version of it. Great fun to shoot. Very mild report with moderate recoil. Around the same velocity as you got here from the snub. You can see the bullets in flight easily when the light is right for it. Sights on all the guns are perfectly regulated for the 200 grain slug. Smacks things good. 😛 Smith & Wesson made a version of the M&P revolver chambered for this cartridge into the 1970s for export only, which was the Model 11. In case anyone wondered if there was anything between the Model 10 and 12. There was! But only for British Commonwealth countries.
This is one of your best. When I first started as a cop in 1971, the older officers carried the "Super Police" .38 Spl loads. They purchased them on their own, believing they were more effective than the 158 grain LRN's we were issued. I bought some, too, made by Winchester.
Some people thought the revolver was dead. Not a chance.. Great test Sam
Great test, there really aren’t may gel testers that test old school and oddball loads like you.
Back when I worked Security for the Housing Authority, we carried 158 SJLSWCHP +P's. If I am remembering right we used Federal ammo and it was supposed to be 920 FPS out of a 6" barrel. Our ammo was supplied by HUD which oversaw the HA security contracts and it always came in plain white cardboard boxes, with a US Gov N.S.N. number on the boxes.
If you ever have the opportunity to try that ammo, I suggest you do. It was rather snappy in my 4" Model 10 HB
Very interesting test Sam, when I was young all there was in the gun store when my dad would buy 38 spl for his Colt Cobra was 158 gr lead round nose and 230 gr ball for his Colt 1911A1. When I got in my teens we started seeing some different bullet styles. Yes I am that old. lol
The Manstopper loads developed by the British before WWI were an earlier version of the Super Police concept, but offered in larger calibers. The Brits typically used a cupped or massive hollow-point projectile made of soft lead and having greater than normal length (and therefore greater weight for caliber). They too plodded along at 600-700 fps and were reported to be very effective around the Empire. It's the reason, post-WWI, they created the 38/200 from the 38 S&W, because it used an overly long and heavy-for-caliber 200 grain projectile, but also generated milder recoil than a .455. In the US a very similar load, dubbed the 38 S&W Super Police, was available. This should not be confused with the 200 grain 38 Special Super Police load (also called the "Police Load"). While operating on the same theory, the two cartridges are not interchangeable due to differences in case and projectile dimensions.
It should be noted that any bullet can tumble, but long torpedo-like designs such as these are more prone to do so and will create a wide temporary wound channel when they do. While growing up in the 1960s this load was recommended specifically for sub-nosed revolvers, but its record of success seems to be mixed. Later scientific testing showed it very easily tumbled, but did not produce the shock and awe its manufacturers had claimed. Much more promising were the up and coming 38+P hollow points of lighter weight. Rather than develop new bullet designs that might have improved the 200 grain's performance, the load largely fell to the wayside and is rarely encountered anymore. Anecdotally, one old fart in our community claimed he dumped the entire cylinder from his Chief Special into an assailant, but none of them penetrated the guy's leather jacket. Far be it from me to question the veracity of his story, but Dick was something of a BS artist and tended to tell the truth just often enough to keep you confused.
Cool review. Nobody is doing vids on this kind of stuff. Some do vids on powder coated bullets, and others lead bullets but this is unique - one of the reasons I subscribe. Thanks Sam. The powder coated bullets can be pushed quite fast - magnum velocities just fyi if you do want maximum penetration (bear defense).
NEW GUN SAM VIDEO WOOOOWOOOOOOOO!!!!🎉
In the 70s my dad only used 200 gr lead roundnose in his 6in model 10
Almost to the holy grail of the super police. Now to lower the velocity down to 750 and 700ft/s.
averaged 703 FPS in a new load I made, through the snub.
@@GunSam looking forward to the vid
G.Gordon Liddy liked big, slow moving bullets like the 240 grain .44 special.
I like the .44 Special, and if I can find them, the Fiocchi 247 gr .44 Russian. If I recall right, those tumble a bit.
@@GunSamThe Son Of Sam used a Charter Arms Bulldog .44 Special. Known as the .44 Caliber Killer. It was actually a popular revolver back in the 70’s.
Great video!
I once had an 1871 Colt replica in 38 Special. This one had a long barrel and the 1860 Colt grip frame. I had some 200 gr bullets like yours and loaded them up with an old school standard pressure load of 2400 powder I found in a loading manual. This load went 800 fps and was very accurate at 100 yards. The 1871 has very small sights with the rear sight on the barrel. The sights were regulated perfectly for this load at 100 yards. Lots of fun plinking!
Great work, Sam, thanks! I've done a lot of reading, bullet casting, handloading, vintage gun & ammo buying, target & chrony work, and water jug shooting with .38/200 aka .38 Super Police aka British .380 Rim Mk. IZ, as well as the similarly-loaded .38 Special Super Police, and also the British .380 Rim Mk 2Z 178g FMJ load Happy to IM you my results if you like.
You've definitely hit the highlights of the design intent: long, heavy-for-caliber bullets at very low velocity were (and still are) marginally stable in flight and quite acceptably accurate, but upon penetration into a soft target they tend to lose their stability and tumble. The British Army c. 1930 adopted the 200g blunt, bottlenosed lead alloy bullet as the .380 Rim Mark 1, with a MV of only 590 fps. The Hague Convention forbade bullets which deformed, not bullets that tumbled; the Brits apparently sought to achieve something like HP damage within the Hague limitations. I can't verify the lead alloy they used, but earlier .455 Webley bullets were cast from 20:1 Pb:Sn. Thompson-LaGarde trials in 1903 documented the bone-crushing tendencies of soft-cast lead bullets, as opposed to the piercing action of FMJ and hardcast lead alloy. We know the Brits tested their .380 Rim ammo similarly against animals and cadavers in the 1920s-30s, but I've never seen evidence that their results ever saw the light of day; we're left to infer and speculate on their test findings and design intentions.
They had second thoughts on the MK I's lead alloy, probably based on German objections to such .455 ammo in WWI, so tested and adopted the MK 2 178g FMJ c. 1937 and declared the MK 1 obsolete and relegated it to training use BEFORE WWII broke out. As you pointed out in your video, the friction of the metal jacket required a lighter bullet overall; they tested 187g bullets and were happy with their retained velocity of 570 fps at 50 yards. Don't know why they actually adopted a lighter 178g bullet, but suppose it was an attempt to keep the chamber pressure acceptable.
In my jug testing, Singapore-made MK 2Z ammo tumbled reliably and tended to blow up jugs # 2 & 3, then carom leftward and downward through 4 & 5 and ricochet off #6 in the neighboring row of jugs! (I learned to set up three columns and shoot the center column :-) 200g blunt-nosed cast bullets, both vintage factory and handloads, behaved much the same at 600-ish velocity, but by about 650 they remained stable and drilled straight through. (Great momentum if hitting bone, no doubt, but no more soft-tissue damage than 158g LRN.) Thus, US .38 SPL Super Police loads achieving 700 (4") and 740 (6") probably gave limited soft-tissue damage with great penetration, plus salutary effects when hitting solid bone mass. I find it completely plausible that all of these bullets tend to ricochet off of hard surfaces struck at an angle, but I know positively that they'll penetrate 2-4" straight into living pine trees at about 70 yards @90° angle of incidence.
I found that the sights of British WWII Enfield, Webley, and S&W service revolvers, plus postwar Ruger "India contract" Service- and Speed-Six revolvers, are well-regulated for 178-200g @ 600-ish, whereas S&W and Colt revolvers marketed for civilian and police use will hit very high with the heavy bullets, for the reasons you point out in your video. They also tend to hit wide, as along with muzzle rise comes a lot of torque!
Final comment: 4"-5" revolvers shooting 200g bullets with a large, flat-nosed meplat tend to hammer water jugs 1-2 reliably, and penetrate 6 jugs in a straight line with full-caliber holes, often knocking down a 2x6" stop board behind #6. (Usually subtract 1 jug if using a 2" snub with its 550-ish velocities.) Not sure why the British Army preferred the LRN approach with its less predictable tumbling tendencies, unless their tests demonstrated a remarkably greater terminal effect on the whole.
We are shooting lip stick today! Nice load. I like these test with unconventional rounds. I still remember you shooting it without ear protection.
Nerd Overload!
That is what I like about Gun_sam channel. Interesting investigations of alternate approaches. It would have been interesting to see how the slow boys did in the longer barrel.
I have tested similar loads in longer barrels. You don't gain much if any velocity with more barrel.
@@GunSam 👍
Great video! I know the British made a 200 grain, 38 S&W load (38/200). I wondered what the advantage would be to that. The British also talked about "Dwell Time", basically all other things being equal, the slower the bullet traveled through tissue, the more damage it did. A slower bullet, ripped and tore tissue as opposed to cutting a channel.
As for the Xtreme Defenders tumbling; I look at it as damage is damage. Whatever it takes to cause damage. It is probably easier to make a projectile reliably tumble than to reliably deform (mushroom, expand, etc).
There is no advantage to the .38/200 load. Dwell time is nonsense. We've moved on from half-assed theories like that.
Awesome tests!
Holy wound channel Batman
Interesting. I like your consistant testing. Thanks for more good info.
Very interesting. Solves problems.
Interesting concept. Thanks for a unique test.
Interesting video! Thanks.
Interesting loads. Might be fun to play around with.
As per usual, a good vid.
Wow big damage n yes I’ve never seen so much damage as well!!!! Gr8 idea n test!!!
Great videos!
Great video!!
Nice test of some interesting slugs, keep 'em coming!
The Federal HST .38 Special +P is a 130 grain load similar to a Wadcutter.
It is made for snubnose Revolvers.
It has been discontinued for years. I never cared for it as it was weak and didn't penetrate well.
@@GunSam Lucky Gunner did a very good review of the HST. The Kimber K6S performed well in the test. The S&W J frame 1 7/8” wasn’t as good. Could be the cylinder gap on his particular revolver. The ammunition is made for snubnose revolvers.
Another good micro pistol ammunition is the 9mm 150 grain HST.
Your content is always interesting
I believe the yawing or tumbling theory is real, but I'm not sure if it really is better than 158 grain SWC or SWCHP. The actual science and on game results of the SWC and SWCHP is pretty solid due to the sheer volume of it.
The super police is much less effective. There's a reason why the Super Police load was discontinued shortly after we started using ballistics gel to test bullets.
Very interesting test
GS. Good video. That was interesting but different. Thanks for sharing and take care.
That was fun!
Almost need to rename it the "lead frisbee" round. Wow that was really a wide tumble path!
When I cut some out of my gel blocks later, they came out and hit the table with a hard thud. They hurt you just dropping on your foot. That's not typical lol
Usually I watch the gell tests most closely and this time I was more interested in the target shooting expected much more bullet drop considering the low speed and high weight. Very interesting
One of my TH-cam buddies CW Longshot just sent me some of these bullets to tryout.
How about some reverse seated wadcutters in your gel test?👍
Thanks for the post as always! ❤️
I have tested them a few times already.
I just had the gel test from 2022 come up in my feed.
Excellent testing of an obscure loading that might still be viable. Thank you!
I hate to say it but every time you post a video I just hop on and give you an immediate LIKE and leave on the spot if the title didn’t interest me. I have to remember to leave a comment every time. Even if it’s nothing like this one ^^^
Am I the only one that does this?
I know a few people who type they are adding algorithm. It's a compliment, as it means you don't think I release trash and lies lol.
Wow I didn't know that. I'm like hoarder, just hit the like button. I enjoy your videos but don't often leave a comment. I'll have to remember that.
What about a video comparing handloaded 38 special loads. One set of loads with smokeless powder and one set with black powder.
I have never personally worked with black powder before.
I looked it up during COVID when powder was hard to find, and surprisingly easy to find what the black powder loading was for 38 special because it originated as a black powder cartridge.
would love to see a gel test on PMC 132gr FMJ's. they are hot for standard .38spl & prolly have great penetration.
While it effectively does close to the same thing. The bullet that your referring to is the Lyman 358430. Much more "bulbus" RN.
If you would like some Id be happy to send you some to test.
Thx. Odd cartridges, interesting.
Hi Sam, I'm wondering if the 200 grains 38S&W load the Brits used was actually a good idea. This load seems to be a good one for a large snubby, like a model 10 2".
Very interesting test!
Perhaps you'd consider testing a few velocities with standard 158 gr LRN? 650 fps, 800 fps, and 950 fps? Id love to see that!
Also, 3 or 4 shots per load.
Have ever tested the old Police loads back to back? 158 gr LSWC +P @900 fps Vs 158 gr LRN @750-800 fps?
I'd like to see that.
I use Federal 38 Wad Cutters for my 38 snubby!
yep
I, too, have been in search of an effective 38spl hand load, and I came across a 12.4 gr of H4227 for a 140xtp at 19,400 cup on Hogdon's website. It says it's traveling at 1,121 fps out of a 7.7 inch barrel. I've also looked into Lil'gun. No official data for this so I'm not recommending this but I might try it at my own risk, but one gentleman posted the he was loading 12.5 gr under a 140xtp and getting 1100 fps out if his combat masterpiece. Again, not recommending this but I would love to see that first load tested 🤷♂️
Interesting
👍😊
Just be advised, clear gel makes tumbling wound tracts look larger than they actually are. You can even watch them grow after the shot, not sure why this happens
It would stand to more logical reason, that clear gel makes the tracks look smaller than they actually are at first. It makes more sense to me, that the tracks were made then the jostling made parts of them stick back together, then over time they peel back apart due to the gaping hole made.
@@GunSam that’s fine reasoning, but when the track from this 38 is larger than tracks for people’s 308s in other videos, I’d say it doesn’t make sense. There’s something else going on, not sure what the mechanism is though
I’d say the more you seat the bullet the more the pressure would rise. Maybe to unsafe levels
The level to which they are seated for internal volume are not just guesswork. Knowing how deep they go when loaded to overall length to which the cartridges fit a revolver then compared to depth of a known bullet such as a 158 gr lead bullet or JHP bullet, with the known load and unloaded 200 gr bullet all lined up, you can see a comparable depth. In no world is a load that is listed at like 15,000 PSI for a known bullet base depth, going to be at an unsafe level unless one, really has no idea what they are doing or what they are talking about.
Soft lead or hard cast.?
1960's, my dad had some 200 grain 38's copper clad like they do the 22lr. They were soft enough to deform some when shot into old carcasses or wet cardboard. For what they were, not a bad load as revealed in your fine test.
Breaking bones is a good way to induce a stop. I've gotta find some packing material, but I would be very curious to see what you can do with 145gr LSWCHP made of virgin 2-2-96 alloy. If I'm able to follow through that is.
I do have in my online cart to purchase soon, bullets I have never been able to acquire before. Hornady 158 gr LSWC-HP. I have never seen those in stock anywhere for the past 8 years. I plan some various FBI load creation. I know they are supposed to do 890 FPS in a 4" barrel, which I will replicate in whatever way I have to. I also have that 3" Taurus 856 so testing will be fun as the old FBI gun with that load was like, a S&W model 13 with a 3" barrel, but if I recall from info correctly it may have been a 4" barrel revolver firing the FBI load that stopped the one bad guy that couldn't be stopped with Silvertip 9mm, in the 1986 Miami shootout. Either way, I will have some reloading fun and testing coming.
@@GunSam That's awesome! I've had an inrush of deliveries from orders made last year. I have both 145gr and 130gr projectiles. See your email. Although I swear pictures do not do the HP cavities justice. I would be amazed if denim could clog them. I wouldn't want to do a windshield test though. Squish!
I'm in the process of buying my first 38 next week. Can we even get SuperPolice? Or can I buy all the stuff to reload them? Or it's very rare?
It's not something that mainstream ammo companies make anymore. There might be small companies that make them, but I don't know.
You have to load your own. The closest thing available today is the old "Widow Maker" police load, the 158 grain LRN which does not usually tumble and had a (perhaps unjust) reputation for poor stopping power. These will tumble sometimes when fired from 2" barrels. Our agency used 110 grain +P in round butt 2" S&W Model 10 revolvers carried by old school detectives. We had a large quantity of 158 LRN left over from the 70s which we used to qualify or for target practice. These were shot out of 4"- 5" barrels so they never tumbled to my knowledge, at least I never witnessed them tumbling at the range.
@@PassivePortfolios I recall in another vid, Sam said he was surprised at the report of these Super Police was so low he actually shot with his muffs off. Not sure if that was the case today.
Will do what I can to learn reloading and see if I can find the supplies for these things.
@@mikem.2078 - his reloads are subsonic so maybe Sam will comment on the noise level. IMO, ear protection is necessary even with subsonic pistol rounds.
That yawing was pretty nasty looking. It's fascinating looking at old school ideas to increase performance from the pre hollow point days. And I agree the Xtreme Defender is just tumbling. It's overrated.
I wonder what the chamber pressure would be with that big heavy bullet loaded to a 158gr spec
The bullets are in the case no deeper than a lot of 158 gr lead bullets. The slower load, barring information that I don't know about like higher pressure building from it being so heavy, i'd guess 15,000 PSI with that one. The hotter load is probably closer to 17,000.
So a 330 grain 44 at 700fps could be similar performance? From a 3" Derringer. Derringer also will fire over length cartridge.
Wonder which bullet type, specifically, would tumble violently when hitting gel (or living tissue), within standard weights (up to 158gr)? Some casting companies offer some very interesting cast lead projectiles, like spire point or truncated cone (but no heavier than 125gr).
Nice holster,
Where did you get it?
Desantis thumb break OWB for 4" S&W 686/Ruger GP100/Colt Python
Bump
Can those super-heavy .38 special loads be fired out of a j-frame S&W revolver without any issues?
There shouldn't be any issues as long as they are hand loaded properly.
@@GunSam Thanks Sam. Great video.
How did they die?
Crushed pelvises.
Not dissimilar to 9mm heavies. These remind me of 300 to 350 grain 45 colt, low and slow thru anything they go.
Algorithm
PizzA
Seems like 180, would be better. Seems too heavy
180 gr would be a tad too light/short to reliably tumble.
@@GunSam I'm happy to see the test results. I have some old reloading materials with those loads.
Never actually made the effort. However, I'm loading some 300gr for 45Colt to try out
These are nothing more than a novelty load nowadays. Fun to experiment with, especially if you're a reloader, but not really practical for much else.
I wouldn't say they are 'nothing' more than a novelty, as I think they could be very effective. But there are better options for sure. It's not just 158 gr LRN or Wadcutter for the only choices anymore.
What is so drastically different about crime, people's bodies, and firearms that makes some deadly thing now nothing more than a novelty?
If you truly believe. That " these rounds are a novelty!" Then please stand in front of it. Then tell us if this round. Is nothing more then an old party gag.
@@ariesmight6978 That analogy is pretty lame. Nobody wants to get shot with a pellet gun either, toughguy.
@@exothermal.sprocket Plenty is different from when these rounds were considered by LE, that's why they wouldn't even consider using these anymore. You know darn well there are WAY better options in .38 Special for hunting, defense, or even plinking.
Great video!