Check out Dan the Wolfman's MODERN MEAT TARGET TEST of two 115 gr rounds to see if they are enough from both Short/MID and LONG barrels new Test each month! th-cam.com/video/9f3UblhMVow/w-d-xo.html
I like Paul Harrel's review of the incident but we was wrong on one count. He said the FBI was using 357 Magnum ammo. Not true. They were carrying 357 revolvers but were loaded with FBI regulation 38 ammo.
I was an LEO ten years into my career when this tragic event occurred. Please remember that two heroic lawmen died this day trying to protect the public from two extremely violent individuals who had already killed people. This ammunition was a key factor, but not the only factor in the event. Carrying additional ammunition on you , having body armor already on, having long guns not available, but in your hands, were also factors. This was a very interesting test. We carried the 9mm Silvertip in our off-duty guns and Speer .38+P 158 grn SJHP on-duty. All in all, we were well armed and better than some other agencies. Rest in Peace Agents Grogen and Dove.
its the person behind the gun that determins final outcome of gun fight more then what gun or ammo is used, ammo is a just one of many variables but not the dominant variable, and gun cant operate its self nor can gun do its job if poor tactics and hasty decisions are made with no proper preparations
Interesting, found this...As Platt climbed out of the passenger side car window, one of Dove's 9 mm rounds hit his right upper arm and went on to penetrate his chest, stopping an inch away from his heart. The autopsy found Platt’s right lung was collapsed and his chest cavity contained 1.3 liters of blood, suggesting damage to the main blood vessels of the right lung. This was the primary injury responsible for Platt’s death. So it was a fatal injury but not a incapacitating injury, so he stayed in the fight, shot a few more times and eventually killing agents Grogan and Dove with the Mini-14. He stayed in the fight until...Agent Mireles reached the driver's side door, extended his revolver through the window, and fired his sixth shot at Platt. The bullet penetrated Platt's chest and bruised the spinal cord, ending the gunfight. Good video, enjoyed it!
There was also one-armed use of a shotgun, if I recall. Pull the trigger, rest the stock on the ground, pump, lift back up, fire, rest the stock on the ground, etc.
It was one in a million shot. Firing a fraction of a second sooner or later, the bullet would've hit bone and probably would've penetrated much deeper, ending the fight..
The three seminal events in law enforcement ballistics and training, in my opinion, were the 1970 Newhall massacre (led to speedloaders being issued and carried), the 1986 Miami shootout (led to better ballistics standards for cartridges and semi-automatics being issued more widely), and the 1997 North Hollywood shootout (led to widespread issuance of 5.56 carbines). Thanks for this very informative test, Sam. Hope you're feeling better.
@@libra7624 THAT ISNT HOW THEY VIEWED NEWHALL AT FIRST GLANCE - THEIR IMMEDIATE CONCLUSION WAS THAT MORE AMMO IN THE GUN WAS DEFINITELY NEEDED - IT WAS OBVIOUS TO THEM THAT THAT PROBABLY WOULD HAVE MADE THINGS DIFFERENT
@@libra7624 NONSENSE -- THEIR PRIMARY FOCUS IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE INCIDENT WAS INCREASED CAPACITY -- OF COURSE THEY LOOKED AT EVERYTHING ELSE -- AND OF COURSE -- WITH INCREASED CAPACITY CAME THE NEED FOR THE SEMI-AUTO -- WHICH AUTOMATICALLY MEANT A PARALLEL AMMO TEST FOR RELIABILITY & PERFORMANCE -- LISTEN GENIUS -- TO SAY THE NEWHALL HAPPENING DID NOT PLAY THE SAME KIND OF ROLE AS THE FBI THING IS IDIOTIC ON YOUR PART -- STOP TILTING AT WINDMILLS HOMER
@@libra7624 THE FACT IS YA DOPE IS THAT THE RESPONSE TO THE INCIDENT WAS AN IMMEDIATE SEARCH FOR SOMETHING DIFFERENT & HIGHER CAPACITY -- GO ARGUE WITH YOURSELF NUMBSKULL
The senior agent (don't recall his name) was qualified with 357 Magnum STHP & shot Mattix in the head early in the exchange before being shot in a hand & spine by Platt. Said agent was also blind in one eye prior to this incident. Name is Hall, I believe.
I left service with Cal State Police at end of '70's but still followed the news on this fight when it happened. LEOs usually have meeting fights and only have handguns to deal with it. In the military they taught me the handgun is only used to fight your way to your rifle if you don't have it with you for some stupid reason. As old as I am I never realized before that "overexpansion" in 9mm could be a problem! I learn stuff from each of your videos. I have 686 in 3" and 6" versions so I am equiped for CC or hog hunting.
"Over expansion" is NOT a problem and never has been. Over penetration is a problem and has killed/wounded uninvolved people nearby (NYC). But the FBI brass had to find a scapegoat for their incredible FUBAR in Miami. They seized upon the 9mm Silvertip as the problem and spent millions in R&D to find a better solution. Anything to divert attention from a whole variety of problems within the FBI and to tarnishing the Superman image.
Wow, really enjoyed this test and the timing could not have been better due to my personal interest and preferences! Recently I purchased that exact same Federal 38 special load and have been trying it in many of my tools. The accuracy has repeatedly been fantastic at close range, slow fire, with ALL the two and 3 inch barrels I have used thus far. The load seems quite similar to the one offered by Underwood (standard pressure) that I had been carrying, maybe slightly less powerful, it just doesn't have a fancy coating, but it is also much less expensive than the similar Underwood. Your testing confirms what I thought the performance might or could be, which I was basing purely on the published ballistics and older tests I could find of similar loadings, including old Paul Harrell videos. Interesting that the Federal 158 + P performed above rated velocity in a 4 inch barrel. I too would love to see you test this same federal load with your standard procedures in both a 2 inch and 3 inch barrel. Thanks!
Well, the 10mm existed before that event, created in 1983 if I recall - but it was more or less like the way we see something like .460 Rowland or similar exotic cartridges today. After 1986 the 10mm became more mainstream and was looked at as a possible new bureau cartridge.
@@GunSamyour right it 10mm was out before this but it wasn’t used and adapts because it was too much recoil and was too bulky of a pistol at the time…. So all they did was shorten the 10mm cartridge and birthed the .40 SW
@@joshuaferia8972 No. The 10mm was downloaded to the point where little college grad FBI recruits could handle it. Somebody realized with the reduced load they could cut down the case length. That's when the 40 S&W was born.
VERY interesting thesis, comparison, and conclusion. We tend to think of .38 Special as over the hill - an old cartridge associated with sidewalk patrolmen during the Depression, and eclipsed by more modern cartridges and semi-auto handguns. Turns out it's still pretty effective, as you've shown here. I would opt for .357 Magnum in all probability, and I do prefer a 6" barrel on a revolver - particularly a revolver chambered for a longer-range capable cartridge like a .357 that can also use the added sight radius, but it's interesting to note that even the little brother still has some wallop. It was particularly surprising to me to see how far it penetrated in gel. The thought that if there had been no 9mm on scene that day, that .38 Special revolvers would have changed the course of history so dramatically is cause for contemplation. I'm glad you did the test, and revealed such a counter-intuitive result. Very worthwhile video.
Yep, I've read that the 9mm is the "minimum" caliber for self-defense. Not the .38 special that was the primary sidearm for LEOs around the country for many decades and saved LEOs from certain death countless times up until the 1990's, just before the switch to semi-autos. I really don't know why that's the case when it's the .38 special that put an end to the 1986 shootout. If we're talking about the .44 magnum cartridge, then yeah, I'd prefer the 6" over the 3", 4", even 5" barrel. If it's .357 mag, I'd prefer a 3" or 4" barrel, but never a 2". Just my preference.
I remember it and was in Law Enforcement at the time, and a Firearms Instructor. This shootout changed EVERYTHING! There were a lot of other factors involved, such as one Agent not having a reload and left it in his car, and another losing his glasses, and basically being blind as a bat and barely seeing his sights and the targets as nothing but a blur, the way they took down the Vehicle Felony Stop from beginning, Agents who had their guns sitting on the seat next to them, and during the resulting impacts, ended up scrambling for guns on the floorboard while the bad guys were right next to them and opened fire. There were so many second guesses and lessons learned, that the lessons in the classroom and on the range and changes in policy went on for years. The main things I remember from that time, was most Officers thought the 9mm was trash and the ammo was trash. Ammo Companies made heavier 9mm's. That's where the 147 grain bullets came from, but there were good and bad reports on them from the streets. And to be honest, many 9mm's back then were nothing near the designs of today, and the ammo for the most part was crap. Guys who were carrying the 357 Mag Revolvers, wanted to keep them and raised hell, whenever a Department talked about switching to semi-autos. The 40 came later from the same testing with the 10mm and problems with the S&W Model 1006 that the FBI basically demanded from S&W and changed the designs and features, resulting in the model 1076. Several local Departments who worshipped the FBI, went to the 1076 and had problems also. It wasn't a Bad Gun as S&W had it in the 1006, but the FBI had to make their changes and design features which resulted in the problems. The 40 S&W Cartridge was a little snappier in recoil, but it was night and day compared to the older 9mm ammo. As ammo technology changed, so did the results on the street.
It's funny how back in the day, the solution was always thought of as just, changing cartridges. Now days you can take a 9mm, a .40 S&W, a .45 ACP and make all of them what you want them to be more or less, within reason. Fore sure, a new design like a Federal Hydrashok Deep 9mm, is a totally different animal than an 80's era Silvertip 9mm.
Great summary. Mixture of needing better tactics and being better armed. Too bad about the guy losing his glasses because he was the best of the group. Who knows what would have happened if he could have seen.
Well, so much for those who argue that .38 spl is too weak. Regarding the gel being calibrated for bone: The way the test was devised, the gel was not serving as an analog to the human body. If a round could penetrate a minimum of 12" in gel, it was calculated to have enough momentum to pass through bone as well as flesh & reach a vital. This was supported by forensic evidence from actual shootings. Now, that being said, I agree that hitting something hard can affect the shape & trajectory of a bullet, so it's still worth testing with a hard barrier.
Need to find that popcorn emoji. :) Thanks. Always interested in another take on this. Platt would have died from the 9mm hit, but, as they say, NOT YET. Adrenalin carried him a long way. Good to see you up and about. Arthritis kickingmy old arse today.
SAM be Proud this was a REALLY well done Vid. Can you LINK to my newest "Modern Meat Target" Test since it's testing two 115gr I am releasing one of these a month. If not no worries. I will post actual link in another post if you can find it or let me know will add it here. Thank you!
In an In Service course in the Police Department. The instructor went over the 1986 Miami FBI debacle. The FBI had the ability to take down the armed robbery suspects. At the time, The Miami Dade SWAT team was very experienced and available to assist the Agents. The FBI had the tools, unfortunately it didn’t work out. The fatal shot that killed Platt was the 115 grain Winchester Silvertip. When Platt exited the vehicle he was unable to hit the agent because his heart was failing to pump blood. He staggered back in the vehicle where the final shots occurred. It was pure adrenaline that kept a determined Platt to stay in the fight. His partner Mattix was hit immediately by a 00 Buck pellet and gave up the fight. Shot Placement and good tactics wins a gunfight!
If you want to know more details about that event, besides ballistics - this old episode of "The FBI Files" is a great resource. th-cam.com/video/n5UVkNhqi_k/w-d-xo.html
It claimed they used military weapons. A Mini-14 is not a military weapon. There were 145 shots. I see nothing about them using an FBI load .38 Special, but they did use 9mm and .357 revolvers. The typical load for a 9mm was 147 grains, not 115. Essentially, they would be firing the same subsonic velocity through the same bore: 9mm ....... Bore===0.3460"/8.79mm 9MM ....... Groove=0.3550"/9.02mm 357 Magnum Bore===0.346"/8.79mm 357 Magnum Groove=0.355"/9.02mm Assigning a caliber based on the difference between 147 and 158 after hitting flesh in the 1980s when there were 145 shots in five minutes is questionable.
I just watched this on FBI files a few nights ago. That shot to the groin at point blank with the Mini 14 was devastating. And the dude lived was amazing.
@@JohnLloydScharf Nope.... the 147 Grain came into vogue AFTER this shooting, as a result of the performance of the 9mm in the shootout. Lousy designed hollowpoints in 115 Grain were the norm at the time with occasional 124 Grain due to NATO specs being 124 Grain at the time. Prior to that, the 147 grain or anything as heavy was considered a suppressor round.
Thank you so much for this post! This event did set a series of events in motion that changed more things than I can count. I would add that the velocity of the .38 Special “Metro”/“FBI” load was about 950 fps. at the time, the Winchester being the hottest at close to 1k fps. I carried this ammunition in my .38 Special duty gun back then. Well done as always!
I remember when I first got into bullet casting, first thing I did was track down some old lyman 358156 and 458439 molds to mess around and recreate the "FBI load"
Good Subject! Every once in a while, it's good to look back at events and see if we can elicit additional info and to refresh ourselves about lessons learned. Winchester Silvertip has always performed well for me in a RIFLE. However, Silvertip PISTOL ammo is the only ammo that ricocheted a bullet back at my feet after shooting into a downed tree. I was 20 or 30 feet away, and that expanded Silvertip literally landed at my feet. My brother said it bounced off his boot in a similar situation. You can guess what I think about Silvertip pistol ammo.
Fantastic eval of the ammo used in 86. Much appreciated! That gel test was textbook of what likely happened. Just a damn dark comedy of errors raised all that hell.
Thanks. Yeah, Mireles himself in interviews can't do anything other than laugh at some of the stuff that happened. There's always a chance of not making it home in law enforcement, so they often accept these things and use humor to cope.
Thanks for going into the history of this. Very well set up test to be as accurate as possible. My agency had a shooting in the the mid 80's with Silvertip 9mm. First shot bounced off a rib and failed to penetrate. The second hit was a gut shot that put the suspect down (hit the liver i believe) That prompted an eventual change to the 147 hydra shok
We actually issued these for officers who wanted to carry a .38. I shot these into wet phone books and got about the same results as the 9mm 147 hydra shok. Not a great way to test but it's what I had. I'd be very interested in seeing these fired into gel! Thanks again for all the work you do Edit: I'll look to see if I still have some of these. I dont think I do but if I still have them I'll let you know
Good review Sam, the history behind the Miami shootout is very interesting as well. I use .38 Spcl as a carry load in a Colt Detective Special. All steel heavy thing but a very good shooter.
@@rElliot09 The FBI knew that these guys were killers, and well-armed. The agents involved in the shootout were specifically tasked with finding these guys. A better axiom would be: Don't bring a handgun to a long gun shootout.
@@SpartacusColo and there were agents (as part of this group of 14 FBI agents) who had long guns that day but unfortunately, were not any of the 8 who ended up engaging them. I absolutely believe those in law enforcement should have long guns at all times, but I was talking about your every day citizen. I don't always travel with my AR's, thus my handgun is my primary go to weapon.
Seems like a time when the fbi was imbued to serve the people and not necessarily just the politicians. My my how times have changed, not just with ballistics.
Great history. Thanks for the test. I noticed even on deer, a .270 rifle with 130 gr Silvertips would have explosive expansion with shallow penetration; like only one lung on a broadside shot. I went to Hornady Interlocs and never had that issue again. 👍
Great demo! Truly shows a good representation of what happened ballistically. Also great example of Dove's shot being fatal but without adequate stopping power. If it had penetrated the heart, the guy likely would have continued for a while (30 sec - a minute) but not nearly as long. Note, the clear gel is great for demo, bullets usually penetrate a little MORE in it than the more cloudy standard gel which slightly better estimates human flesh.
VERY interesting video. This was a huge topic when I first got into law enforcement back in '88 or so. I have argued that the 9mm Silvertip did the exact job it was intended to do. It penetrated a lot of tissue, cut the brachial artery (a potentially fatal wound absent quick medical attention) and blew out his pulmonary artery (a "non-survivable" wound according to the medica examiner). Yes, it stopped 1" from his heart, but it went through a lot of tissue to get there. The real issue wasn't that one round stopping an inch short (after inflicting a serious and a fatal wound). The issue is there weren't enough bullets fired more accurately doing more immediate damage. A lot of rounds were fired (including one or two that kept Now, before I sound like a jerk let me add that IMO at that time no other agency would have done any better and many would have fared much, much worse. It was this shooting that really got the ball rolling on police tactical training. But, a LOT of mistakes were made. Again, few if any agencies would have done any better at that time. Matix took hits in the neck an head that kept him out of most of the action so those rounds worked fine. From what I was told and shown in training, a round of 12 ga 00b hit Platt in the ankle as he was walking and he never missed a step. Anyway you have a TON of great information in this video (as always) and did a fantastic analysis and obviously a lot of research. Great job and thanks for this.
Great breakdown, Sam. Good fact gathering. The Silvertip has been redesigned at least twice since then, but the changes are not visually apparent. They changed to jacket material from aluminum to (i think) gilding metal, and at some point they changed the internal skiving somewhat in an effort to control expansion. You forgot the fact that Ed Mireles fired his 870 at the car one handed, to empty (4 rounds). Also, there was at least 1 MP-5 on scene, in the trunk of a car (probably Jerry Dove's car, since he was SWAT trained. Pity he didn't have it close at hand. A 3 round burst to the head at relatively close range (say 15 yards or less) is easy to do with its good sights, and may have stopped the whole incident early. He also could have hosed the passenger compartment if necessary, depending on the angle, bystanders, etc. i have always heard that Dove used a 469, but 0.5" diff in barrel length is academic. The Silvertip gets unjustly maligned. It actually did quite well. Not many jacketed handgun bullets of the time would have done better, except maybe some 357's (most likely 158 gr; the 125's tended to have shallow penetration and a lot of fragmentation, but had good hydrostatic shock/temporary cavity dynamics, which helped with energy dump). Anyway, there was a good LE training video/debrief of this incident, which was shown in my academy- long ago in a galaxy far, far away. Lol. We can thank the FBI's search for truth for giving us the 10mm Lite, the S&W 1076, the 40 S&W (in my long seving P229), and standardized testing methodology which ked to large improvements in bullet design and performance. Various rounds resulted directly from this, starting i think with the Hydra-Shok, and continuing through the Golden Saber, Gold Dot, and later the Hornady Critical Defense and Critical Duty, to name a few. Existing ammo was also improved, seeking optimal velocities and causing changes in "standard" ammo lines. We really do have an embarrassment of riches in recent years where ammo performance is concerned.
SUPERB analysis and demonstration, Gun_Sam. My gut instinct has always been that had Agent Dove had a revolver that day, making that same superb combat shot and hit with 38 Spl instead of 9mm, that the fight would have been over just as it started, with Platt dropped almost instantly. Your test proves that likely that is exactly what would have happened. My gut instinct was pure speculation, but your superb effort and demonstration here shows that to be fact, not just mere speculation.
Very impressive test! I recall the incident very well & at the time Col. Coopers .45 acp in the 1911 was all the rage & many LEO thought the .45 acp should have been adopted by the FBI. (Hint) that would make an interesting test.
A very well executed video. I’m surprised to see how well the Federal 158 perform. I need to start looking harder for it. FWIW, I’ve heard that FBI ballistics gurus a decade after this incident occurred privately admitted they preferred the .45 ACP even to the .40, though pistol size in relation to hand size favored the .40. The 45 ACP’s larger diameter played into the preference when hollow points of both 40 and 45 failed to expand. I also heard that SA Mireles carried a .45 for the rest of his career.
The name of the Hispanic FBI Agent who finished off the two perps is Edmundo Mireles not Morales. Dear Gun Sam the mistake is no biggie considering how the Bureau kept a tight control on the information in the investigation. Agent Mireles received permanently disabling injuries to his forearm. He lost muscle tissue in his forearm when he was wounded by rounds from the Mini-14. All in all I love your videos they're VERY enlightening. Please keep up the good work. Thanks!
The Winchester Silvertip has changed drastically since 1986. Back in those days, the Silvertip jacket was made of aluminum. They are now made from conventional jacket materials. But it appears the penetration has not changed.
Great video! Not too long after the Miami thing, I was issued a Gen 1 Glock 17 with the FBI 147 gr JHP load. This was very lightly loaded. I chronoed it from the 3.5 inch Glock 26 at 910 fps. Dont remember the FPS from the G17. At the time, people were warning against this load in the G17 due to malfunctions. I never had any problems with it. Things changed and we were then allowed any 9mm ammo except pre- fragmented. I started carrying the 115 gr CorBon. It would be great to see how this 147 gr load chosen by the FBI after Miami would work in your tests.
Don't know if you hand load, but what would be cool is if you could do a set of penetration tests where you take an FMJ round and just vary the powder load to see how it affects penetration. I don't know if you are familiar with Dixie Slugs, I don't think they are around anymore, but they used to advertise that their shotgun slugs matched the ballistics of the paradox guns used by African hunters many years ago. Dixie used a 870 grain slug moving at 1200 fps. The idea is that resistance through a medium is not linear with velocity. Energy doubles if you double the bullet weight and keep the velocity the same, but energy-- and drag-- go up exponentially as velocity increases. It is why lightweight high-velocity rounds don't penetrate as deeply as slower heavier rounds even if the lighter rounds have significantly higher energy. Mythbusters tested the penetration of different rounds into water and black powder and shotgun slugs went deeper than even modern rifle bullets, including the 50bmg, because the faster bullets, even though they were a lot tougher, exploded due to the resistance created by the higher velocity. I've never seen a comparison, but even comparing a 40SW target load with a 180 grain flat-nosed fmj against a 125 grain 357 Sig (PPU 357 Sig) with a similar bullet shape would be a neat test. I suspect the 40SW will out-penetrate the 357 Sig, despite the 357 Sig having 200 fpe more energy and a smaller frontal area. I'll send you a box of PPU 357 Sig if you want to try it. PPU makes the hottest 357 Sig available from a regular ammo maker (not Underwood, Grizzly, Double Tap, Buffalo Bore, etc). m.furnier@comcast.net
I remember when this happened, because I'm 51, and all the gun magazines were covering it at the time, and it was in the news for months. It was quite an event, and by 1990 the FBI had adopted the ill-fated S&W 1076 10mm pistol, which was actually mentioned and shown in the show Twin Peaks at the time! But the usual problems with adopting a very powerful and substantial handgun occurred, a reduced power 10mm load was introduced to help agents qualification scores, and thus the .40 S&W was born. Which is a generally excellent cartridge that's ballistically identical to the black powder frontier era .38-40. I've been using it since 1994 and I don't understand the current antipathy towards it. Puzzling. Though the short-lived .41 Action Express was better still, more versatile, and should have had the success of the .40. But good ideas fail all the time, especially with new cartridges. The ballistic gel results do appear to replicate the anecdotal reports of medical examiners observing bodies in police shootings. Which is that .38 Special, though lower power than 9mm on paper, generally does more damage and is somewhat more effective due to the heavier bullet. Plain soft lead bullets also seem to generally do better than jacketed slugs overall. Also revolvers are just better and people who use them are more awesome. 😏😛
We went through a period of celebrated violence during Prohibition, but it took incidents like this, along with the war on drugs, for law enforcement to see themselves as a domestic military force and arm themselves accordingly. If you're Officer Friendly, a .38 Special revolver is good enough. If you're Judge Dredd, you need a bit more firepower. This is not to say that ballistic testing is a bad idea. It's just that it's too bad that we can't seem to have modern sidearms for cops and cops who see their duty as serving, rather than dominating the public.
Fantastic Video Sam You are also correct on the gray bullets problems of chronographing , I have the same chronograph and powder coat my lead bullets , When I shoot gray the chronograph will not pick them up --- other colors are just fine
I noticed a few years ago that I would get no error reads, then the brass jacketed Remington Golden Saber would not read. Like never one misread with anything else, same day, but I could go a whole box of Golden Saber with no reads. Black marker helped some, but I didn't think about it when I was testing these as I had a lot of other information to go over.
I carry my LCR 357 from time to time. Buff Bore has two 110 gr variants that are good. Remington has a 110 grain that's good, and a 125 gr "compact" round that tested good. Personally, I use the Buff Bore 110 grain +p for the times I carry my LCR.
It’s interesting that in the shootout platt is hit early on with a supposed lethal wound but continued to fight but Mattix early on took a grazing shot from the 38 fbi load that broke his jaw and fractured his scull effectively ending his participation in the battle he only fired one round from a 12 gauge in the battle and at the time his wound was called survivable but definitely effective.
Great video!! In cases of civilian self defense, I wonder how often the question of over penetration through the desired target is a real issue, especially given the number of complete misses in most police and civilian encounters. Considering the increasingly marked size differences in people today (between high fat content in some and massive muscle mass in others) the issue of penetration becomes an almost impossible problem.
Hi Sam, very clear results and I remember at the time gun writers were pushing hard on high-capacity pistols with light hollow points that did not "over-penetrate". I used to evaluate guns by shooting on bullseye at 25 meters and I bought a 686 instead because I did well with the range's K14 and so and so with the semiautos and I figured I was a revolver guy. The fate made for me the better choice, it seems but one question remains open: what would have happened if Dove had 9mm ball in his gun? What would have happened if the revolver guys had the 200 grains super police load?
One of the reasons as an armed citizen if I'm not carrying a snub I have my Springfield XDs .45 in tow. I'd say the 38 and 9mm are dottng the i's and crossing the t's the .45 is the exclamation point. Great video thanks for your hard work.
@@FoulPet emm you get hit with that big slug even if it's just 700 fps you going down. Maybe not a barrier penetrator but not going to over penetrate either. An armed citizen most likely isn't going to get in a fbi style shoot out. Depending on what state you live in even if you are 200% protecting yourself or loved ones you're going to jail if you cant prove beyond a reasonable doubt you were defending your life and you exhausted all your options prior to using deadly force. Case and point as armed citizens we cannot use offensive use of force like pursuing and engaging suspects. Its our duty to avoid conflict unless we are forced to stand or ground usually 0-10 yards max. I guess if you live on a farm or rural area that may be different. Some states it's got so bad you have to use ball ammo(even though hollow point is safer for avoiding over penetration). Unfortunately that's what happens when the public is armed and apathetic. People's rights are slowly eroded locally and federally, even in regards to what law enforcement can do.
@@gidim8367 I guess you're not understanding why this video was made and what the general meaning/relevance behind the test is. So let me give you my interpretation. Penetration is more important than bullet weight. A 9mm bullet that penetrates 15 inches is better than a 45 bullet that penetrates 8 inches. 357 sig provides better penetration, better energy and better capacity than 45. 40 sw is another better alternative to 45. 45 needs to be pushed out of a long barrel to retain enough speed to penetrate since it's mass will slow it down quickly. If you feel comfortable with it then you do you. Doesn't change the facts.
@@FoulPet what do you think of the 158 grain +p fbi load. I'm a big fan of that basically my carry round in a Taurus 856 ULCH 2" 6 shot snub. That's what I carry every day.
Very good version of the this test, good to see. I would like to see a simulated pelvic girdle shot where the important blood vessels and bone are deeper in the body. It would be interesting to see a modified version of your real world test to see what duty type rounds could go through at least triple the amount of gel initially then still have the energy to convincingly penetrate your mdf.
No its not. The 147 would be traveling slower and done worse. We had our near calamity with pathetic 147gr 9mm issue load. Then quickly switched to .40 SW 165gr. Big difference. Handguns need every FPS they can get because they're way behind the power ball before they exit the muzzle,, compared to a rifle or 12ga shotgun.
@LuvBorderCollies I'm not sure which 147s your department had but the 147 grain Silvertip definitely outperforms the 115. In any case, I would take a deep penetrating round that doesn't expand over shallow penetration. There are 380 loads that outperform the 115 Silvertip th-cam.com/video/WrboESrwpdI/w-d-xo.htmlsi=2AqR4ONZytX6102E
I really enjoy your videos. You and Paul Harrell got me into doing tests and videos. Gel serves a purpose to a point. I’m more of a fan of meat targets. I think there more realistic. I also often wonder if most of these rounds made now are just to do well in gel? But when through meat and bones a lot of them really don’t expand much or any at all. Especially critical duty. Just curious on your thoughts.
Good video on the handgun calibers they were using and the effects of the bullets. Two main things from other videos of this shootout showed were poor marksmanship on the side of the agent's as well as being under gunned with their handguns against men with rifles. The agent's only brought to bare one shotgun that was fired to far away by a one armed wounded agent. Other observations may very.
There was dissatisfaction expressed about revolvers in general, the "FBI Load" specifically, among other complaints by the agents. This started an agency wide shift to auto pistols, first authorized then issued. The "death wound" on Platt severed his brachial artery & he ultimately bled out from it, he also endured multiple GSWs to include having his feet blown apart by buckshot before his spine was damaged by a 38 strike. Blaming the outcome of this incident on a single 9mm that PERFORMED AS DESIGNED defies all reason.
With the 9mm It is the speed that you're after. This was a standard pressure 9 mm load which is still not that bad however +P and +P+ loads perform a lot better. If you look at the Illinois State Police load 115 grain 9 mm that did so great. The actual bullet was the Winchester silver tip. They just did not make it silver and when they jacked it up to a +P+ loading the bullet did tremendously well. If we all look at the federal 9bple again, it did very well because it was a high pressure bullet. Just like the 357 Magnum is a better. Stop it in the 38 special and they're the same diameter bullet
We need to clear something up. The FBI ballisticians did not come up with the 12-18" metric, the experts state in their paper, than max penetration is needed to ensure the bullet nor only reaches vital structures, but has enough force when there to damage them, they give no value on what this equates to in ballistic gel, and state clearly that over penetration is a non issue. It was pencil pushing bureaucratic policy makers who came up with the 12-18" metric.
9/10 for that presentation, 👍🏻 1 point deducted for not having ‘86 theme music like ‘I wanna be a cowboy’ to go with the funky sunglasses. th-cam.com/video/SHCsbrc8xKA/w-d-xo.htmlfeature=shared
I’ve read a number of analyses of this infamous shootout. Frankly, I believe the best is Henry Bowman’s take, in the book Unintended Consequences by John Ross. I am not surprised the FBI concentrated on ballistic failures, not tactical f**kups.
Great video. At least some carry the Federal round. I managed some .38 special LRN Remington 158 gr but have no idea if it is any good for a carry round. do you have any vids on it you remember?
I really enjoyed this video…. I would like to see this exact test done with .40 cal because they adapted the .40 S&W right after it was actually made because of this situation… so put it to the test if they had made a more power cartridge before the shooting would any FBI agents had died
The FBI agents were very brave, but not too bright. They knew they were going after hardcore, homicidal, bad guys with high capacity semi-auto long guns. Why didn't the FBI have shotguns and ARs (maybe MP5s?) as their primary weapons and handguns only as back-up? That said, another great test vid from Gun Sam. Thx, as always, for what you do.
The FBI had the resources available to them. They didn’t communicate with the local authorities that they were tracking the known robbery suspects. The Miami Dade Police Department had a very good SWAT team that was experienced.
In addition to being shot in the left arm, Ed Morales was probably filled with adrenaline, while also out of breath and exhausted. Sam could simulate that part by running through the woods until he is out of breath before taking the shots, making it a better test.
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Check out Dan the Wolfman's MODERN MEAT TARGET TEST of two 115 gr rounds to see if they are enough from both Short/MID and LONG barrels new Test each month! th-cam.com/video/9f3UblhMVow/w-d-xo.html
THANK YOU!!!
Just reviewed. Very well done and informative.
@@arnoldcohen1250 thank you so much!
Good heads up surprising result for 115 grain.
If you're interested in this topic, Paul Harrel has the best breakdown of it that I have seen!
I like Paul Harrel's review of the incident but we was wrong on one count. He said the FBI was using 357 Magnum ammo. Not true. They were carrying 357 revolvers but were loaded with FBI regulation 38 ammo.
I’m still hoping we’ll get his analysis of the Newhall incident, which he once said he could go on for hours about 🧥
I was an LEO ten years into my career when this tragic event occurred. Please remember that two heroic lawmen died this day trying to protect the public from two extremely violent individuals who had already killed people. This ammunition was a key factor, but not the only factor in the event. Carrying additional ammunition on you , having body armor already on, having long guns not available, but in your hands, were also factors.
This was a very interesting test. We carried the 9mm Silvertip in our off-duty guns and Speer .38+P 158 grn SJHP on-duty. All in all, we were well armed and better than some other agencies.
Rest in Peace Agents Grogen and Dove.
its the person behind the gun that determins final outcome of gun fight more then what gun or ammo is used, ammo is a just one of many variables but not the dominant variable, and gun cant operate its self nor can gun do its job if poor tactics and hasty decisions are made with no proper preparations
@@libra7624 horse piss
I'm old enough to remember this in the news.
Me too, and to see the training video that resulted from it.
Interesting, found this...As Platt climbed out of the passenger side car window, one of Dove's 9 mm rounds hit his right upper arm and went on to penetrate his chest, stopping an inch away from his heart. The autopsy found Platt’s right lung was collapsed and his chest cavity contained 1.3 liters of blood, suggesting damage to the main blood vessels of the right lung. This was the primary injury responsible for Platt’s death.
So it was a fatal injury but not a incapacitating injury, so he stayed in the fight, shot a few more times and eventually killing agents Grogan and Dove with the Mini-14. He stayed in the fight until...Agent Mireles reached the driver's side door, extended his revolver through the window, and fired his sixth shot at Platt. The bullet penetrated Platt's chest and bruised the spinal cord, ending the gunfight.
Good video, enjoyed it!
There was also one-armed use of a shotgun, if I recall. Pull the trigger, rest the stock on the ground, pump, lift back up, fire, rest the stock on the ground, etc.
It was one in a million shot. Firing a fraction of a second sooner or later, the bullet would've hit bone and probably would've penetrated much deeper, ending the fight..
The three seminal events in law enforcement ballistics and training, in my opinion, were the 1970 Newhall massacre (led to speedloaders being issued and carried), the 1986 Miami shootout (led to better ballistics standards for cartridges and semi-automatics being issued more widely), and the 1997 North Hollywood shootout (led to widespread issuance of 5.56 carbines). Thanks for this very informative test, Sam. Hope you're feeling better.
INDEED - THE NEWHALL INCIDENT WAS A HUGE GAME CHANGING EVENT IN CALIFORNIA
I would have to add in The Onion Field, but that is about tactics and never giving up your weapon.
@@libra7624 THAT ISNT HOW THEY VIEWED NEWHALL AT FIRST GLANCE - THEIR IMMEDIATE CONCLUSION WAS THAT MORE AMMO IN THE GUN WAS DEFINITELY NEEDED - IT WAS OBVIOUS TO THEM THAT THAT PROBABLY WOULD HAVE MADE THINGS DIFFERENT
@@libra7624 NONSENSE -- THEIR PRIMARY FOCUS IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE INCIDENT WAS INCREASED CAPACITY -- OF COURSE THEY LOOKED AT EVERYTHING ELSE -- AND OF COURSE -- WITH INCREASED CAPACITY CAME THE NEED FOR THE SEMI-AUTO -- WHICH AUTOMATICALLY MEANT A PARALLEL AMMO TEST FOR RELIABILITY & PERFORMANCE -- LISTEN GENIUS -- TO SAY THE NEWHALL HAPPENING DID NOT PLAY THE SAME KIND OF ROLE AS THE FBI THING IS IDIOTIC ON YOUR PART -- STOP TILTING AT WINDMILLS HOMER
@@libra7624 THE FACT IS YA DOPE IS THAT THE RESPONSE TO THE INCIDENT WAS AN IMMEDIATE SEARCH FOR SOMETHING DIFFERENT & HIGHER CAPACITY -- GO ARGUE WITH YOURSELF NUMBSKULL
I'm glad you said you were going to test the 38 FBI load in shorter barrels. Can't wait to see that.
The senior agent (don't recall his name) was qualified with 357 Magnum STHP & shot Mattix in the head early in the exchange before being shot in a hand & spine by Platt. Said agent was also blind in one eye prior to this incident. Name is Hall, I believe.
I left service with Cal State Police at end of '70's but still followed the news on this fight when it happened. LEOs usually have meeting fights and only have handguns to deal with it. In the military they taught me the handgun is only used to fight your way to your rifle if you don't have it with you for some stupid reason. As old as I am I never realized before that "overexpansion" in 9mm could be a problem! I learn stuff from each of your videos. I have 686 in 3" and 6" versions so I am equiped for CC or hog hunting.
"Over expansion" is NOT a problem and never has been. Over penetration is a problem and has killed/wounded uninvolved people nearby (NYC). But the FBI brass had to find a scapegoat for their incredible FUBAR in Miami. They seized upon the 9mm Silvertip as the problem and spent millions in R&D to find a better solution. Anything to divert attention from a whole variety of problems within the FBI and to tarnishing the Superman image.
@@LuvBorderCollies So, what do you think the problem was in this shoot out?
I would like to see you test the FBI load in a snub nosed revolver. Great video!
Amazing that you duplicated the exact problem that caused all the subsequent events to occur! Great vid, man.
Thank you
I believe this would pair well with Paul Harrel's reconstruction of the FBI shootout!
Great job, Sam!
Wow, really enjoyed this test and the timing could not have been better due to my personal interest and preferences!
Recently I purchased that exact same Federal 38 special load and have been trying it in many of my tools. The accuracy has repeatedly been fantastic at close range, slow fire, with ALL the two and 3 inch barrels I have used thus far.
The load seems quite similar to the one offered by Underwood (standard pressure) that I had been carrying, maybe slightly less powerful, it just doesn't have a fancy coating, but it is also much less expensive than the similar Underwood.
Your testing confirms what I thought the performance might or could be, which I was basing purely on the published ballistics and older tests I could find of similar loadings, including old Paul Harrell videos.
Interesting that the Federal 158 + P performed above rated velocity in a 4 inch barrel. I too would love to see you test this same federal load with your standard procedures in both a 2 inch and 3 inch barrel.
Thanks!
Neat test. The Miami shootout gave birth to the 10mm, 40SW, and the best carry round there is, the 357 Sig.
Well, the 10mm existed before that event, created in 1983 if I recall - but it was more or less like the way we see something like .460 Rowland or similar exotic cartridges today. After 1986 the 10mm became more mainstream and was looked at as a possible new bureau cartridge.
@@GunSam You are correct, and I knew that if I would have thought about it longer.
@ultrafuel2559 this is the internet. Most people don't think before they type.
@@GunSamyour right it 10mm was out before this but it wasn’t used and adapts because it was too much recoil and was too bulky of a pistol at the time…. So all they did was shorten the 10mm cartridge and birthed the .40 SW
@@joshuaferia8972 No. The 10mm was downloaded to the point where little college grad FBI recruits could handle it. Somebody realized with the reduced load they could cut down the case length. That's when the 40 S&W was born.
VERY interesting thesis, comparison, and conclusion. We tend to think of .38 Special as over the hill - an old cartridge associated with sidewalk patrolmen during the Depression, and eclipsed by more modern cartridges and semi-auto handguns. Turns out it's still pretty effective, as you've shown here.
I would opt for .357 Magnum in all probability, and I do prefer a 6" barrel on a revolver - particularly a revolver chambered for a longer-range capable cartridge like a .357 that can also use the added sight radius, but it's interesting to note that even the little brother still has some wallop. It was particularly surprising to me to see how far it penetrated in gel.
The thought that if there had been no 9mm on scene that day, that .38 Special revolvers would have changed the course of history so dramatically is cause for contemplation. I'm glad you did the test, and revealed such a counter-intuitive result. Very worthwhile video.
Yep, I've read that the 9mm is the "minimum" caliber for self-defense. Not the .38 special that was the primary sidearm for LEOs around the country for many decades and saved LEOs from certain death countless times up until the 1990's, just before the switch to semi-autos. I really don't know why that's the case when it's the .38 special that put an end to the 1986 shootout.
If we're talking about the .44 magnum cartridge, then yeah, I'd prefer the 6" over the 3", 4", even 5" barrel. If it's .357 mag, I'd prefer a 3" or 4" barrel, but never a 2". Just my preference.
Your videos never disappoint.
I remember it and was in Law Enforcement at the time, and a Firearms Instructor. This shootout changed EVERYTHING! There were a lot of other factors involved, such as one Agent not having a reload and left it in his car, and another losing his glasses, and basically being blind as a bat and barely seeing his sights and the targets as nothing but a blur, the way they took down the Vehicle Felony Stop from beginning, Agents who had their guns sitting on the seat next to them, and during the resulting impacts, ended up scrambling for guns on the floorboard while the bad guys were right next to them and opened fire. There were so many second guesses and lessons learned, that the lessons in the classroom and on the range and changes in policy went on for years.
The main things I remember from that time, was most Officers thought the 9mm was trash and the ammo was trash. Ammo Companies made heavier 9mm's. That's where the 147 grain bullets came from, but there were good and bad reports on them from the streets. And to be honest, many 9mm's back then were nothing near the designs of today, and the ammo for the most part was crap. Guys who were carrying the 357 Mag Revolvers, wanted to keep them and raised hell, whenever a Department talked about switching to semi-autos. The 40 came later from the same testing with the 10mm and problems with the S&W Model 1006 that the FBI basically demanded from S&W and changed the designs and features, resulting in the model 1076. Several local Departments who worshipped the FBI, went to the 1076 and had problems also. It wasn't a Bad Gun as S&W had it in the 1006, but the FBI had to make their changes and design features which resulted in the problems.
The 40 S&W Cartridge was a little snappier in recoil, but it was night and day compared to the older 9mm ammo. As ammo technology changed, so did the results on the street.
It's funny how back in the day, the solution was always thought of as just, changing cartridges. Now days you can take a 9mm, a .40 S&W, a .45 ACP and make all of them what you want them to be more or less, within reason. Fore sure, a new design like a Federal Hydrashok Deep 9mm, is a totally different animal than an 80's era Silvertip 9mm.
Great summary. Mixture of needing better tactics and being better armed. Too bad about the guy losing his glasses because he was the best of the group. Who knows what would have happened if he could have seen.
ANOTHER great vid from GS.
Come on, folks…
Let’s get GS those subs!
Well, so much for those who argue that .38 spl is too weak.
Regarding the gel being calibrated for bone: The way the test was devised, the gel was not serving as an analog to the human body. If a round could penetrate a minimum of 12" in gel, it was calculated to have enough momentum to pass through bone as well as flesh & reach a vital. This was supported by forensic evidence from actual shootings. Now, that being said, I agree that hitting something hard can affect the shape & trajectory of a bullet, so it's still worth testing with a hard barrier.
Need to find that popcorn emoji. :) Thanks. Always interested in another take on this. Platt would have died from the 9mm hit, but, as they say, NOT YET. Adrenalin carried him a long way.
Good to see you up and about. Arthritis kickingmy old arse today.
SAM be Proud this was a REALLY well done Vid. Can you LINK to my newest "Modern Meat Target" Test since it's testing two 115gr I am releasing one of these a month. If not no worries. I will post actual link in another post if you can find it or let me know will add it here. Thank you!
In an In Service course in the Police Department. The instructor went over the 1986 Miami FBI debacle. The FBI had the ability to take down the armed robbery suspects. At the time, The Miami Dade SWAT team was very experienced and available to assist the Agents. The FBI had the tools, unfortunately it didn’t work out.
The fatal shot that killed Platt was the 115 grain Winchester Silvertip. When Platt exited the vehicle he was unable to hit the agent because his heart was failing to pump blood. He staggered back in the vehicle where the final shots occurred. It was pure adrenaline that kept a determined Platt to stay in the fight. His partner Mattix was hit immediately by a 00 Buck pellet and gave up the fight.
Shot Placement and good tactics wins a gunfight!
If you want to know more details about that event, besides ballistics - this old episode of "The FBI Files" is a great resource. th-cam.com/video/n5UVkNhqi_k/w-d-xo.html
Thanks!
It claimed they used military weapons. A Mini-14 is not a military weapon.
There were 145 shots. I see nothing about them using an FBI load .38 Special, but they did use 9mm and .357 revolvers.
The typical load for a 9mm was 147 grains, not 115. Essentially, they would be firing the same subsonic velocity through the same bore:
9mm ....... Bore===0.3460"/8.79mm
9MM ....... Groove=0.3550"/9.02mm
357 Magnum Bore===0.346"/8.79mm
357 Magnum Groove=0.355"/9.02mm
Assigning a caliber based on the difference between 147 and 158 after hitting flesh in the 1980s when there were 145 shots in five minutes is questionable.
I just watched this on FBI files a few nights ago. That shot to the groin at point blank with the Mini 14 was devastating. And the dude lived was amazing.
@@JohnLloydScharf Nope.... the 147 Grain came into vogue AFTER this shooting, as a result of the performance of the 9mm in the shootout. Lousy designed hollowpoints in 115 Grain were the norm at the time with occasional 124 Grain due to NATO specs being 124 Grain at the time. Prior to that, the 147 grain or anything as heavy was considered a suppressor round.
Thank you so much for this post! This event did set a series of events in motion that changed more things than I can count. I would add that the velocity of the .38 Special “Metro”/“FBI” load was about 950 fps. at the time, the Winchester being the hottest at close to 1k fps. I carried this ammunition in my .38 Special duty gun back then. Well done as always!
I remember when I first got into bullet casting, first thing I did was track down some old lyman 358156 and 458439 molds to mess around and recreate the "FBI load"
Wow. You put a lot of thought into this episode. Thanks, Gun Sam 👍
Good Subject! Every once in a while, it's good to look back at events and see if we can elicit additional info and to refresh ourselves about lessons learned.
Winchester Silvertip has always performed well for me in a RIFLE. However, Silvertip PISTOL ammo is the only ammo that ricocheted a bullet back at my feet after shooting into a downed tree. I was 20 or 30 feet away, and that expanded Silvertip literally landed at my feet. My brother said it bounced off his boot in a similar situation. You can guess what I think about Silvertip pistol ammo.
Fantastic eval of the ammo used in 86. Much appreciated! That gel test was textbook of what likely happened. Just a damn dark comedy of errors raised all that hell.
Thanks. Yeah, Mireles himself in interviews can't do anything other than laugh at some of the stuff that happened. There's always a chance of not making it home in law enforcement, so they often accept these things and use humor to cope.
The whole incident was a goat screw and yes, it changed everything. As part of the large test, the FBI also tested 5.56 for penetration.
Thanks for going into the history of this. Very well set up test to be as accurate as possible. My agency had a shooting in the the mid 80's with Silvertip 9mm. First shot bounced off a rib and failed to penetrate. The second hit was a gut shot that put the suspect down (hit the liver i believe) That prompted an eventual change to the 147 hydra shok
Thanks for watching. I actually located a vintage box of .38 Special+P+ 147 gr Hydrashok online. I been contemplating purchasing it for testing.
We actually issued these for officers who wanted to carry a .38. I shot these into wet phone books and got about the same results as the 9mm 147 hydra shok. Not a great way to test but it's what I had. I'd be very interested in seeing these fired into gel! Thanks again for all the work you do
Edit: I'll look to see if I still have some of these. I dont think I do but if I still have them I'll let you know
@@themoe6701 Most Hydrashoks are surprisingly good even to this day. Especially the .45 ACP 230 gr version.
@@GunSam HOW MUCH send me 12 lol
Bounced off a rib?
Was that particular bullet only half charged from oil saturating the powder or something?
Thank you. I am Floridian born and raised and sometimes just assume all ammunition works well enough because we don’t have denim or coats or layers
Good review Sam, the history behind the Miami shootout is very interesting as well. I use .38 Spcl as a carry load in a Colt Detective Special. All steel heavy thing but a very good shooter.
Proof that a long gun is ALWAYS a better choice
This! Brave agents fought rifle armed suspects, one of whom was a prior service Ranger
Don't always have a long gun, so better have the best, with what you have.
@@rElliot09 The FBI knew that these guys were killers, and well-armed. The agents involved in the shootout were specifically tasked with finding these guys. A better axiom would be: Don't bring a handgun to a long gun shootout.
@@SpartacusColo and there were agents (as part of this group of 14 FBI agents) who had long guns that day but unfortunately, were not any of the 8 who ended up engaging them. I absolutely believe those in law enforcement should have long guns at all times, but I was talking about your every day citizen. I don't always travel with my AR's, thus my handgun is my primary go to weapon.
Seems like a time when the fbi was imbued to serve the people and not necessarily just the politicians. My my how times have changed, not just with ballistics.
This was a great demonstration. Probably your best video to date.
Great history. Thanks for the test. I noticed even on deer, a .270 rifle with 130 gr Silvertips would have explosive expansion with shallow penetration; like only one lung on a broadside shot. I went to Hornady Interlocs and never had that issue again. 👍
Great demo! Truly shows a good representation of what happened ballistically. Also great example of Dove's shot being fatal but without adequate stopping power. If it had penetrated the heart, the guy likely would have continued for a while (30 sec - a minute) but not nearly as long.
Note, the clear gel is great for demo, bullets usually penetrate a little MORE in it than the more cloudy standard gel which slightly better estimates human flesh.
VERY interesting video. This was a huge topic when I first got into law enforcement back in '88 or so.
I have argued that the 9mm Silvertip did the exact job it was intended to do. It penetrated a lot of tissue, cut the brachial artery (a potentially fatal wound absent quick medical attention) and blew out his pulmonary artery (a "non-survivable" wound according to the medica examiner). Yes, it stopped 1" from his heart, but it went through a lot of tissue to get there. The real issue wasn't that one round stopping an inch short (after inflicting a serious and a fatal wound). The issue is there weren't enough bullets fired more accurately doing more immediate damage. A lot of rounds were fired (including one or two that kept Now, before I sound like a jerk let me add that IMO at that time no other agency would have done any better and many would have fared much, much worse. It was this shooting that really got the ball rolling on police tactical training.
But, a LOT of mistakes were made. Again, few if any agencies would have done any better at that time.
Matix took hits in the neck an head that kept him out of most of the action so those rounds worked fine. From what I was told and shown in training, a round of 12 ga 00b hit Platt in the ankle as he was walking and he never missed a step.
Anyway you have a TON of great information in this video (as always) and did a fantastic analysis and obviously a lot of research. Great job and thanks for this.
Holy... A 1986 Miami FBI shootout ballistics test! 👀 Alright, I'm saving this one to watch later. 😃
Great breakdown, Sam. Good fact gathering. The Silvertip has been redesigned at least twice since then, but the changes are not visually apparent. They changed to jacket material from aluminum to (i think) gilding metal, and at some point they changed the internal skiving somewhat in an effort to control expansion. You forgot the fact that Ed Mireles fired his 870 at the car one handed, to empty (4 rounds). Also, there was at least 1 MP-5 on scene, in the trunk of a car (probably Jerry Dove's car, since he was SWAT trained. Pity he didn't have it close at hand. A 3 round burst to the head at relatively close range (say 15 yards or less) is easy to do with its good sights, and may have stopped the whole incident early. He also could have hosed the passenger compartment if necessary, depending on the angle, bystanders, etc. i have always heard that Dove used a 469, but 0.5" diff in barrel length is academic. The Silvertip gets unjustly maligned. It actually did quite well. Not many jacketed handgun bullets of the time would have done better, except maybe some 357's (most likely 158 gr; the 125's tended to have shallow penetration and a lot of fragmentation, but had good hydrostatic shock/temporary cavity dynamics, which helped with energy dump).
Anyway, there was a good LE training video/debrief of this incident, which was shown in my academy- long ago in a galaxy far, far away. Lol. We can thank the FBI's search for truth for giving us the 10mm Lite, the S&W 1076, the 40 S&W (in my long seving P229), and standardized testing methodology which ked to large improvements in bullet design and performance. Various rounds resulted directly from this, starting i think with the Hydra-Shok, and continuing through the Golden Saber, Gold Dot, and later the Hornady Critical Defense and Critical Duty, to name a few. Existing ammo was also improved, seeking optimal velocities and causing changes in "standard" ammo lines. We really do have an embarrassment of riches in recent years where ammo performance is concerned.
SUPERB analysis and demonstration, Gun_Sam. My gut instinct has always been that had Agent Dove had a revolver that day, making that same superb combat shot and hit with 38 Spl instead of 9mm, that the fight would have been over just as it started, with Platt dropped almost instantly. Your test proves that likely that is exactly what would have happened. My gut instinct was pure speculation, but your superb effort and demonstration here shows that to be fact, not just mere speculation.
Very impressive test! I recall the incident very well & at the time Col. Coopers .45 acp in the 1911 was all the rage & many LEO thought the .45 acp should have been adopted by the FBI. (Hint) that would make an interesting test.
GS. Good video. Nice testing and comparison. And for a bit of a history lesson. Thanks for sharing and take are.
Thanks. Your testing answered questions I had about the Miami shootout.
A very well executed video. I’m surprised to see how well the Federal 158 perform. I need to start looking harder for it. FWIW, I’ve heard that FBI ballistics gurus a decade after this incident occurred privately admitted they preferred the .45 ACP even to the .40, though pistol size in relation to hand size favored the .40. The 45 ACP’s larger diameter played into the preference when hollow points of both 40 and 45 failed to expand. I also heard that SA Mireles carried a .45 for the rest of his career.
Shame on you for being so unbiased. Hahaha
Great work Sam.
The name of the Hispanic FBI Agent who finished off the two perps is Edmundo Mireles not Morales. Dear Gun Sam the mistake is no biggie considering how the Bureau kept a tight control on the information in the investigation. Agent Mireles received permanently disabling injuries to his forearm. He lost muscle tissue in his forearm when he was wounded by rounds from the Mini-14. All in all I love your videos they're VERY enlightening. Please keep up the good work. Thanks!
I really like this test..Read about this “Shoot Out !“ many years ago..you clearly gave us ballistics details in this experiment.thanks😊
The Winchester Silvertip has changed drastically since 1986. Back in those days, the Silvertip jacket was made of aluminum. They are now made from conventional jacket materials. But it appears the penetration has not changed.
Wow. That was pretty enlightening. As for shooting from 75 yards, never say it won't happen. Most people wouldn't expect 40 yard shots either.
Great video!
Not too long after the Miami thing, I was issued a Gen 1 Glock 17 with the FBI 147 gr JHP load. This was very lightly loaded. I chronoed it from the 3.5 inch Glock 26 at 910 fps. Dont remember the FPS from the G17. At the time, people were warning against this load in the G17 due to malfunctions. I never had any problems with it. Things changed and we were then allowed any 9mm ammo except pre- fragmented. I started carrying the 115 gr CorBon.
It would be great to see how this 147 gr load chosen by the FBI after Miami would work in your tests.
Don't know if you hand load, but what would be cool is if you could do a set of penetration tests where you take an FMJ round and just vary the powder load to see how it affects penetration. I don't know if you are familiar with Dixie Slugs, I don't think they are around anymore, but they used to advertise that their shotgun slugs matched the ballistics of the paradox guns used by African hunters many years ago. Dixie used a 870 grain slug moving at 1200 fps. The idea is that resistance through a medium is not linear with velocity. Energy doubles if you double the bullet weight and keep the velocity the same, but energy-- and drag-- go up exponentially as velocity increases. It is why lightweight high-velocity rounds don't penetrate as deeply as slower heavier rounds even if the lighter rounds have significantly higher energy. Mythbusters tested the penetration of different rounds into water and black powder and shotgun slugs went deeper than even modern rifle bullets, including the 50bmg, because the faster bullets, even though they were a lot tougher, exploded due to the resistance created by the higher velocity. I've never seen a comparison, but even comparing a 40SW target load with a 180 grain flat-nosed fmj against a 125 grain 357 Sig (PPU 357 Sig) with a similar bullet shape would be a neat test. I suspect the 40SW will out-penetrate the 357 Sig, despite the 357 Sig having 200 fpe more energy and a smaller frontal area. I'll send you a box of PPU 357 Sig if you want to try it. PPU makes the hottest 357 Sig available from a regular ammo maker (not Underwood, Grizzly, Double Tap, Buffalo Bore, etc). m.furnier@comcast.net
I look forward to the test of the short barrel 38. Great video.
I have a box of Remington HTP 158 gr LHP+P and 25 rounds of these Federal. I plan a snub nose VS test between those brands.
I look forward to the other tests too Sam. I wonder is the recipe for that FBI load printed anywhere? This could get expensive right? 🤣
Great video Sam. Thank you.
I remember when this happened, because I'm 51, and all the gun magazines were covering it at the time, and it was in the news for months. It was quite an event, and by 1990 the FBI had adopted the ill-fated S&W 1076 10mm pistol, which was actually mentioned and shown in the show Twin Peaks at the time! But the usual problems with adopting a very powerful and substantial handgun occurred, a reduced power 10mm load was introduced to help agents qualification scores, and thus the .40 S&W was born. Which is a generally excellent cartridge that's ballistically identical to the black powder frontier era .38-40. I've been using it since 1994 and I don't understand the current antipathy towards it. Puzzling. Though the short-lived .41 Action Express was better still, more versatile, and should have had the success of the .40. But good ideas fail all the time, especially with new cartridges. The ballistic gel results do appear to replicate the anecdotal reports of medical examiners observing bodies in police shootings. Which is that .38 Special, though lower power than 9mm on paper, generally does more damage and is somewhat more effective due to the heavier bullet. Plain soft lead bullets also seem to generally do better than jacketed slugs overall. Also revolvers are just better and people who use them are more awesome. 😏😛
Very educational! Thank you for all of your videos. Rev
Another outstanding, informative video! Enjoyed it, thanks.
Interesting to see how the 38 performed so well
That is what the Baton Rouge Police dept used when I graduated from the academy in 1977.
Very thoughtful test cool video, thank you
We went through a period of celebrated violence during Prohibition, but it took incidents like this, along with the war on drugs, for law enforcement to see themselves as a domestic military force and arm themselves accordingly. If you're Officer Friendly, a .38 Special revolver is good enough. If you're Judge Dredd, you need a bit more firepower.
This is not to say that ballistic testing is a bad idea. It's just that it's too bad that we can't seem to have modern sidearms for cops and cops who see their duty as serving, rather than dominating the public.
Love this guy, great videos
Very informative. I was 19 when this happened and remember it well. Great video👍
I turned 6 the same month. I do NOT remember it lol. Had good parents.
@GunSam , I couldn't watch Popeye the sailor because it was too violent. Good parents here too.
Fantastic Video Sam
You are also correct on the gray bullets problems of chronographing , I have the same chronograph and powder coat my lead bullets , When I shoot gray the chronograph will not pick them up --- other colors are just fine
I noticed a few years ago that I would get no error reads, then the brass jacketed Remington Golden Saber would not read. Like never one misread with anything else, same day, but I could go a whole box of Golden Saber with no reads. Black marker helped some, but I didn't think about it when I was testing these as I had a lot of other information to go over.
Excellent synopsis and test!
Thank you
I carry my LCR 357 from time to time. Buff Bore has two 110 gr variants that are good. Remington has a 110 grain that's good, and a 125 gr "compact" round that tested good. Personally, I use the Buff Bore 110 grain +p for the times I carry my LCR.
Very good video, Sam! If not for this tragedy we’d never have seen the .40 S&W or the 147 grain 9mm loads.
Or 357 sig.
It’s interesting that in the shootout platt is hit early on with a supposed lethal wound but continued to fight but Mattix early on took a grazing shot from the 38 fbi load that broke his jaw and fractured his scull effectively ending his participation in the battle he only fired one round from a 12 gauge in the battle and at the time his wound was called survivable but definitely effective.
Awesome video to say at least. Regards from Spain
Great video!! In cases of civilian self defense, I wonder how often the question of over penetration through the desired target is a real issue, especially given the number of complete misses in most police and civilian encounters. Considering the increasingly marked size differences in people today (between high fat content in some and massive muscle mass in others) the issue of penetration becomes an almost impossible problem.
You may have seen the video from about a year ago made by Kentucky Ballistics on *Could Bodyfat Save Your Life ???*
@@cgsimons1187 I hadn't but just watched it. Great fun but it answered the question!
357 sig if you're worried about penetration in an auto.
Thanks for sharing another great video!
Hi Sam, very clear results and I remember at the time gun writers were pushing hard on high-capacity pistols with light hollow points that did not "over-penetrate". I used to evaluate guns by shooting on bullseye at 25 meters and I bought a 686 instead because I did well with the range's K14 and so and so with the semiautos and I figured I was a revolver guy. The fate made for me the better choice, it seems but one question remains open: what would have happened if Dove had 9mm ball in his gun? What would have happened if the revolver guys had the 200 grains super police load?
Thanks for the video.
One of the reasons as an armed citizen if I'm not carrying a snub I have my Springfield XDs .45 in tow. I'd say the 38 and 9mm are dottng the i's and crossing the t's the .45 is the exclamation point. Great video thanks for your hard work.
45 is already slow. Putting it in a micro gimps it.
@@FoulPet emm you get hit with that big slug even if it's just 700 fps you going down. Maybe not a barrier penetrator but not going to over penetrate either. An armed citizen most likely isn't going to get in a fbi style shoot out. Depending on what state you live in even if you are 200% protecting yourself or loved ones you're going to jail if you cant prove beyond a reasonable doubt you were defending your life and you exhausted all your options prior to using deadly force. Case and point as armed citizens we cannot use offensive use of force like pursuing and engaging suspects. Its our duty to avoid conflict unless we are forced to stand or ground usually 0-10 yards max. I guess if you live on a farm or rural area that may be different. Some states it's got so bad you have to use ball ammo(even though hollow point is safer for avoiding over penetration). Unfortunately that's what happens when the public is armed and apathetic. People's rights are slowly eroded locally and federally, even in regards to what law enforcement can do.
@@gidim8367 I guess you're not understanding why this video was made and what the general meaning/relevance behind the test is. So let me give you my interpretation. Penetration is more important than bullet weight. A 9mm bullet that penetrates 15 inches is better than a 45 bullet that penetrates 8 inches.
357 sig provides better penetration, better energy and better capacity than 45. 40 sw is another better alternative to 45. 45 needs to be pushed out of a long barrel to retain enough speed to penetrate since it's mass will slow it down quickly. If you feel comfortable with it then you do you. Doesn't change the facts.
@@FoulPet makes sense
@@FoulPet what do you think of the 158 grain +p fbi load. I'm a big fan of that basically my carry round in a Taurus 856 ULCH 2" 6 shot snub. That's what I carry every day.
Very good version of the this test, good to see. I would like to see a simulated pelvic girdle shot where the important blood vessels and bone are deeper in the body. It would be interesting to see a modified version of your real world test to see what duty type rounds could go through at least triple the amount of gel initially then still have the energy to convincingly penetrate your mdf.
interesting. this may be your best yet.
Great ballistic break down!
Expansion or not I'm willing to bet the 147 grain silver tip would have been a better choice. In any case penetration is king.
Agreed
No its not. The 147 would be traveling slower and done worse. We had our near calamity with pathetic 147gr 9mm issue load. Then quickly switched to .40 SW 165gr. Big difference. Handguns need every FPS they can get because they're way behind the power ball before they exit the muzzle,, compared to a rifle or 12ga shotgun.
@LuvBorderCollies I'm not sure which 147s your department had but the 147 grain Silvertip definitely outperforms the 115. In any case, I would take a deep penetrating round that doesn't expand over shallow penetration. There are 380 loads that outperform the 115 Silvertip
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I really enjoy your videos. You and Paul Harrell got me into doing tests and videos. Gel serves a purpose to a point. I’m more of a fan of meat targets. I think there more realistic. I also often wonder if most of these rounds made now are just to do well in gel? But when through meat and bones a lot of them really don’t expand much or any at all. Especially critical duty. Just curious on your thoughts.
Fantastic video. Very interesting
That old FBI load is still impressive. In the incident described, I wonder if the 9mm FMJ would have worked better.
Good video on the handgun calibers they were using and the effects of the bullets. Two main things from other videos of this shootout showed were poor marksmanship on the side of the agent's as well as being under gunned with their handguns against men with rifles. The agent's only brought to bare one shotgun that was fired to far away by a one armed wounded agent. Other observations may very.
Excellent work.
There was dissatisfaction expressed about revolvers in general, the "FBI Load" specifically, among other complaints by the agents. This started an agency wide shift to auto pistols, first authorized then issued. The "death wound" on Platt severed his brachial artery & he ultimately bled out from it, he also endured multiple GSWs to include having his feet blown apart by buckshot before his spine was damaged by a 38 strike. Blaming the outcome of this incident on a single 9mm that PERFORMED AS DESIGNED defies all reason.
Great video. I carry the FBI load for social work.
haha, social work. Must have been a fan of the late Jeff Quinn
Excellent. Interesting stuff.
Fantastic recreation, Sam.
With the 9mm It is the speed that you're after. This was a standard pressure 9 mm load which is still not that bad however +P and +P+ loads perform a lot better.
If you look at the Illinois State Police load 115 grain 9 mm that did so great. The actual bullet was the Winchester silver tip. They just did not make it silver and when they jacked it up to a +P+ loading the bullet did tremendously well.
If we all look at the federal 9bple again, it did very well because it was a high pressure bullet. Just like the 357 Magnum is a better. Stop it in the 38 special and they're the same diameter bullet
Remind me of Paul Harrell recreation of the shootout.
3:16 A lot has been said about the failure of the 9mm 115 grain silvertip round. However the 147 grain silvertip round has more penetrating qualities.
It is not the 9mm. It is the ammo . It is show with the 38spl. Thanks for showing this test .Also shot placement.
Excellent video Sam.
Very interesting. Good job.
We need to clear something up.
The FBI ballisticians did not come up with the 12-18" metric, the experts state in their paper, than max penetration is needed to ensure the bullet nor only reaches vital structures, but has enough force when there to damage them, they give no value on what this equates to in ballistic gel, and state clearly that over penetration is a non issue.
It was pencil pushing bureaucratic policy makers who came up with the 12-18" metric.
12" was a pass of 40 rounds then.then percentageof how many made it 12" min...now 30 rounds and 14-16" scores most points.
9/10 for that presentation, 👍🏻
1 point deducted for not having ‘86 theme music like ‘I wanna be a cowboy’ to go with the funky sunglasses.
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I’ve read a number of analyses of this infamous shootout. Frankly, I believe the best is Henry Bowman’s take, in the book Unintended Consequences by John Ross. I am not surprised the FBI concentrated on ballistic failures, not tactical f**kups.
Great video. At least some carry the Federal round. I managed some .38 special LRN Remington 158 gr but have no idea if it is any good for a carry round. do you have any vids on it you remember?
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I really enjoyed this video…. I would like to see this exact test done with .40 cal because they adapted the .40 S&W right after it was actually made because of this situation… so put it to the test if they had made a more power cartridge before the shooting would any FBI agents had died
Where in the world did you even find a box of the Federal FBI load? I haven’t seen any in years even online.
Use ammo seek. Just enter '.38 Special', 'Federal', '158' and match words in search type "+P". Not hard to find
The FBI agents were very brave, but not too bright. They knew they were going after hardcore, homicidal, bad guys with high capacity semi-auto long guns. Why didn't the FBI have shotguns and ARs (maybe MP5s?) as their primary weapons and handguns only as back-up?
That said, another great test vid from Gun Sam. Thx, as always, for what you do.
The FBI had the resources available to them. They didn’t communicate with the local authorities that they were tracking the known robbery suspects. The Miami Dade Police Department had a very good SWAT team that was experienced.
In addition to being shot in the left arm, Ed Morales was probably filled with adrenaline, while also out of breath and exhausted. Sam could simulate that part by running through the woods until he is out of breath before taking the shots, making it a better test.