Should You Use A PID For Distilling : Jesse - NO : George - Yes
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 12 มิ.ย. 2024
- George from Barley & Hops and Bearded & Bored were kind enough to hang out with me to discuss many things related to home distilling. Specificly the use of PID's for heating stills. Are PID's a good idea? Do PID's work for distilling? Jesse and George disagree!
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Jesse, excellent as always. We absolutely need to do this again with Bearded. I learn so much when we three get together and the sharing of information as well as technique is critical for our community. You are always welcome at my home anytime. Let me know and I will make arrangements for us to more of the same. I have several stills we can run and manipulate over a few drinks LOL. Bearded, you are not that far from me so we got it easy. Jesse needs some good lead time or you and I could travel to see him. Your thoughts?
YES to all of it!
Yes please! You guys add so much to the growth of the community and are a constant inspiration.
Is a 3 way live stream possible then you guys could get together whenever
@@rayfox212 Hopefully. Jesse's the live stream guy so maybe he'll be able to make that happen.
I agree... enjoy all 3 of you gentlemen’s videos.
Putting you together is a 3 course meal of information and enjoyment.💪👍😊🥃
Admittedly I was out of my depth in this conversation, but it was really cool to just sit there and soak up as much information as I could...and soak up some good hooch. Had a great time and hope we get to do this again:-)
Ive been waiting for a Bearded video. It was good to see you here at least!
I with you... just absorbing the information is worth the hangout.
I hope you 3 do this more and often.👍💪🥃
@@BillMcGirr Me Too:-)
I think George and Jessy should have a distilling competition and send me the samples so I can judge you Know for science
I would join that panel :)
I built two of George’s PID controllers I use for my pot still and mash ton. They save the maximum amount of time and allow me the ability to control my processes efficiently and precisely . I swear by them.
Scott Wilson
Did you build a 120 or a 220???
Just curious which size you went with... or both perhaps.👍
Was it difficult ?
One miss is that the PID does not modify the amps to the element. It turns it on and off with the relay so the average over time power is reduced. Therefore, when it is on it is at full amps and off is is at zero amps to meet the desired condensing inlet temperature. The rheostat does reduce the amps and is constant (until adjusted of course:)..... Sorry to split hairs
I use a PID. One benefit is that I can see the methanol coming off at around 150-155 F on my still. When it stops running I know if have run most of that off. Then I kick it up slowly to the 170F range and start collecting my cuts.
Keep up the great work!
Man, I'm such a huge fan of all three of you guys. I am new to the craft and I sincerely feel like you guys have been holding my hand every step of the way. I wasn't sure about trying distillation at first, but through the collective knowledge of these channels, I have found all the confidence I ever needed! I've been watching Still It for a while.. found Bearded a few months back, and I literally discovered George just last week and I have simply been glued to his channel! Such a wealth of information you guys have imparted into this community! It is so appreciated! I am discovering everyone is different... but the same. That idea is so neat. For me, I think it is the science behind the distillation process that appeals to me the most... more-so than the art. (I was never worth a crap at drawing. lol) That is probably the main reason I was so drawn in by George's channel, his analytical breakdown of every process appeals to me... But watching you has helped me gain confidence in trying to rely more on my other senses and intuition... Something George has definitely hinted around at, but doesn't really express in his videos. I get it... it comes with practice... and many many failures. lol. I'm a quick study, and I pride myself on really paying attention... taking what I have learned, and use it to draw my own logical conclusions (think for myself). So, I got to thinking about how with the PID, you are carefully and precisely chasing a temperature... through a range of temperatures to arrive at a desired result. Adversely, with your double element system... where you use percent power to the second element to control the heat and try to chase a flow volume.... So, there is something I wanted to point out, that, after listening carefully I don't feel was fully clarified... maybe it was in the podcast (which I have not heard yet), but definitely was not mentioned or touched upon in this video. And that is, from a third person perspective, in regards to the two different approaches... It seems to me that the both of you are doing exactly the same thing (scientifically)… George is just doing it more precisely through modern day technology... you are doing it more by observation and feel. But the PID is doing the exact same thing you are... controlling percent power to the heating element! As a matter of fact, you can switch the main screen on the PID to literally view that very action... and monitor the percent power change to the heating element in real time. Furthermore, the idea about having to bump up temperatures on the PID... Do you not have to periodically adjust the volume control for your heating element as well? Of course you do. So I want to make the statement that was not made in the video, or pose the question (however you want to look at it), What is the difference between periodically pushing a button to adjust a temperature (ultimately percent power to a heating element), vs. periodically turning a knob to manually adjust percent power to a heating element? The both of you are doing the exact same thing.. you guys are just attacking the same issue from different angles. I didn't feel like that point was really made clear enough in this video. In fact (do not misunderstand me... I love your style) but I believe, after giving this more thought, there is a strong argument that the PID is doing the EXACT same thing that you are... only it is doing it much more precisely. It is adjusting the percent power to the heating element based on mathematical prediction... You are making those same adjustments... based on eyesight and feel. Who is doing it better?? lol ...we need more colabs!
This was really good at helping me understand where the disagreement is on this topic, I didn't know that Jesse was purposely trying to to smear his cuts but in retrospect that makes sense for a pot stiller. I use PID to control cooling water flow as my water pressure and temp constantly change.
Something this discussion missed is that George can put his PID into manual mode and do exactly what Jesse is doing with his power control knob. George has the advantage of knowing precisely what the duty cycle is on his SSR (PID shows it on the display) as well as always seeing his point of no return temp.
I really like how George balances his still during start up with the PID by bringing it up to 135F and letting the PID hold it there for a while. You can't easily do that with manual control unless you sit there and watch the column temp and adjust the boiler power manually.
Another thing that is missed is that heads come off at lower temps than hearts than tails. I think the George can more precisely control what is coming off and segregate the runs. For example, if George knows that the tails start at 187F on a certain mash, he can set the control temp to 187 and let all the hearts come off. Once the heart flow comes to an end he can turn the temp up to 190.. 195 and take off the tails. By letting the flow stop at discrete temps George can better segregate his samples, with less smearing. If George ran the boiler at a constant power the point of no return might climb to 188... 190 while the hearts are still coming off. This would result in smearing of the hearts and tails.
George has another advantage when operating in reflux mode with a column condenser. Without a PID if you leave the pot power constant and adjust the column condenser flow, 2 things will change: reflux ratio and point of no return temp. With a PID if you adjust the column condenser flow the PID will keep point of no return temp constant by jacking up the boiler power. In effect only 1 thing changes, the reflux rate. I think this makes it a lot easier to run the still.
PIDs are dirt cheap and easy to install and use. I see zero reasons not to use one.
This is a good summery of what I think Georges position is (don't want to put words in his mouth tho). I understand the thinking behind it. But I disagree. Other than obviously you can use a pie in manual mode.
Shhh 🤫 don’t tell still it .
Thanks so much TechGuy. Very succinct.
Why is it so hard for Jesse to see the benefits of being able to "flatten the curves". I thought George's explanations were clear. Bearded gets it, why not Jesse?
My PID controller allows me to control/almost eliminate the temperature fluctuations that Jesse wants to avoid.
Love your passion Jesse, but mate, a correctly used PID controller does not cause temperature fluctuations as you seem to think. Rather PID controller in application ultimately reduces the frequency and amplitude of temperature fluctuations.
@@richardking6538 I see how you might want intentional smearing to chase flavors but like he said in the comment above you can easily put a pid in manual mode and do the same thing he’s already doing. It’s almost like the argument is liking something else more because it does worse of a job
3 distilling monsters, I love this hobby
Thanks for the time and energy that you have put into this. I have learned so much from your channel. Just listened to your podcast with George and Beard. Wow. I have such a better understanding of what is happening in my still I realized how much control has been removed from my Copperhead reflux to make it idiot poof. I'm running my second distillation tomorrow so I hope this new info will help me get over the 90+ ABV mark. Thanks again. Love your work.
Richard
Thanks for this Jesse. Clearly showed why I don't need to go the PID route. I'm with you, for both my pot and reflux.
welcome back Jesse. another awesome video thank you. so informative looking forward to seeing what you come up with in 2020 huge thanks to George and Bearded as well
Great discussion! This sort of back and forth exchange of ideas is why I love the hobby. I've used both PID and the SCR and I am with Jesse on this one. I struggled with the PID, but the manual control I get from the SCR allows me to get rock steady temp control. The control box I built is right from George's how-to videos except that I use the SCR instead of the PID.
Great to see you guys together ,I enjoy all your videos.
My PID (and many do) have both ramp/soak controls and manual modes so there need not be a hard and fast way to run with a PID. A ramping bourbon run may look something like: turn on to soak at 165 for 45 minutes (boiler temp), then ramp to 185. Once 185 is reached the alarm output triggers the cooling water solenoid to open and also switches the temp sensor to the column from the boiler. Over the next 2.5 hours the PID automatically and smoothly ramps to 202 before shutdown. Do I always run this way, no. Often I run with my PID in manual mode and throttle power by eye. But having a PID gives the ability. It's up to the operator to use it when it benefits the end goal. Nice vid!
This discussion was GREAT. I learned a lot also! I think the discussion could continue with detailing some of of the differences. Thank you Jesse and George!
I didn't know how badly I needed George's calculus channel. Yesterday
Great video guys! Been watching all three of you guys for awhile. Backwoods, control the heat, and a slow small cool steady stream as possible. Thanks for sharing!
I just listened to the pod cast it was educational and a lot of fun listening to friends bounce ideas and knowledge off each other. You guys were also funny and had me laughing. GREAT JOB hopefully the 3 of you can do it again soon
Great round table group and discussion topic. A much needed conversation for the community by three great dudes. Next time I’ll be expecting an invite! Not to add anymore knowledge to the convo, but to hang out, sip bourbon, and learn!!
Thanks for the video guys! Much enjoyed!
Great to see this discussion of un-rehearsed information...it comes straight from the experts. Equally as informative
This was very good information. I was confused about this before I found this video. Thanks guys.
I am fairly new to this and I have to say I started out using a PID and I love it. Probably just because I've never tried it another way. For a beginner though I would say a PID is really helpful. Thanks for everything you guys do, the information is great and I am really loving the hobby.
Jesse is right about this one. As a control systems engineer I am well familiar with the operation and application of a PID control loop. I have applied, tuned and used hundreds of them. In a suitable application they are great but in the application being discussed here they are not at all suitable. A controller is used to manipulate one variable to control or regulate another variable, the measured parameter. In this case the vapour temperature is the measured parameter and the manipulated variable is the power input (heat input) into the boiler. If trying to control temperature of say a mash tun where the power to the heating element really can be used to regulate the temperature of the mash then a PID controller would be ideal. However, it is not possible to regulate vapour temperature off a boiling liquid (or mix of liquids) by manipulating the heat input. It's either boiling or it's not. In the same way as when boiling water in a kettle, putting more or less power into the kettle will not move the steam temperature away from the 100 degrees C that water boils at. With an ethanol / water mix the temperature that it boils at is a function of the percentages of water and ethanol in the mixture (and atmospheric pressure). The mixture will boil at whatever temperature the mixture will boil at and there is nothing we can do to change that. Putting in more or less energy (heating) will only manipulate the rate of boiling and that's not what is being measured in this case. Of course as it boils more ethanol comes off than water in the vapour, so the mixture in the boiler gradually changes and so the boiling temperature also gradually changes, but you can't control what that temperature is so it is futile trying to apply a PID controller to try to do that. The best way to control the boiler of a still is to use an SCR (triac based device that is basically a big light dimmer) to set the heat input to a point to where the still is stable and then leave it alone. My still is a Boka type and it runs very stable. I like PID controllers and am happy to explain how they work but trying to control vapour temerature is a mis-application. Controlling vapour rate would work fine but that is not what is being measured. Also, a PID controller needs to be tuned - the Proportional, Integral and Derivative functions all need to be adjusted to set up the controller to be able to regulate in the specific application. Just hooking up a PID controller and not knowing how to tune it is very unlikely to deliver the results you want unless it has a self tuning feature built in, so we need to do a video on controller tuning at some point.
I am at the stage of just thinking about building a still, leaning towards a Boka to start. I have nothing like your knowledge and experience with control systems but do have some familiarity with fractional distilling columns from chemistry classes, ages ago.
It seems to me, what is being regulated by "still" PIDs is the temperature at the mash's vapor/condensate transition point, not at the mash temperature, boiling or not...
Awhile ago george made a talking parrot I'm a network engineer with some electrical engineer background I was wondering if you could change the p,i,d to regulate the power based on proofing. Then in theory you could increase energy to keep your abv the same threw the run the same as what a SSR but taking the human element out of it. Just a thought ?
Robert is right. Sure you could use a PID controller but it is a misapplication. The alcohol content determines the temperature. All you need for control is a “throttle” not a thermostat.
I haven’t watched all your videos but I haven’t seen any thermometer on your still so that may explain why you determine where about you are in the cuts process the way you do. You could know exactly by using a thermometer placed high on the column. The “fores” start lower in temp than the hearts and the tails are higher temp than the hearts. Seems many people don’t get these concepts, a least not at first. Love your enthusiasm.
On a reflux still, you control vapor temp with cooling water, not the PID. The PID is a tool to make that easier, which it does I think.
Oh man, so great to see all three of you guys together in one video!
I have worked with PID Controllers in strapping machines welding plastic. The advantage of a PID over any other controller is the temperature can be monitored at many times a second. When a weld is made the element is at the correct set temperature. As soon as the plastic comes in contact with the element the temperature drops, fast, and the controller responds immediately by putting energy in to maintain the set point. Once the plastic is molten and the weld is made, in the twinkling of an eye, the controller will rapidly ramp the element down until the set point is maintained for the next weld. The PID dose the same thing as the SCR but WAY faster than you can turn the dial yourself. But you the operator still need to DRIVE the ship and as your environment changes and experience will tell you what you need the PID will manage the result for you. Both men are doing the same thing and I bet getting the same result but beating a slightly different drum. Both their systems are better than what has been on offer years ago AKA the simmer-stat.
OMG finally one video 📹 that answers so many of the questions I've had. I have a 26 gallon mile high reflux still and bought a propane Bayou Classic burner when I first bought the still I wish I could go back and just buy a PID right out of the gate.
I have a PID controller, but when I’m making neutral spirits I don’t use it. Whether it’s stripping runs in pot still mode or spirit runs in reflux/column mode-the temp probe is laying on the counter. I want hot and fast stripping runs and in reflux mode my condenser goes in the same port my temp probe would be in and I control flow with my reflux water. The PID works great when making rum/malt stuff in pot still mode. Long story short, depending on what I’m making-I agree with both of you.
Chuck Saunders
Are you using an internal heating element?
If you are... how do you control the temperature of the element without the controller?
Just curious...
I thought the pid controller was how the element was controlled.
BillMcGirr technically the power is still being ‘controlled’ by the PID, but my temp probe isn’t installed. So I set the temp at 100°, which the probe never sees, and the heat just runs at 100% on all the time.
Chuck Saunders
Appreciate the reply.
That makes perfect sense now that I reread your original comment.
Appreciate the reply.
Best wishes.👍💪🥃
A really fascinating discussion! Interesting to hear the different preferences on how they like to apply the craft (: Many wrongs ways to still, but no one right way either (:
Happy New Year and thank you for your time. Also thank you for your pod cast link. Now I can cast it to my work shop and be some what productive when listening instead of glued to the Tube watching. ;
I havn't even got a still yet ... but I had a smile on my face just watching you blokes ,,, .. love ol mate in the middle just sipping from the jar ,... haha I will get a still to start and if its as much fun as i hope it is .. Ill build a still ... Love what you do guys !!!
Great chat fellas. I like this.
This is the most educational conversation/debate on pid's. I didn't even know what a pid is! 😳 Although, these three geniuses have answered a hell of a lot of my curiosity/concerns on distilling!!!! I now have confidence in making my own SAFE still, and trying to create flavours that I like. NB. this is not the first vid I've seen of these dudes. I watch them everyday. So those that have happened on this vid and wanna make some shitt, pls watch their channels. 🥂👀🤛
I love seeing the three of you together
Awesome clarification between the two processes. I now am sure I will never need a PID for my pot still. I would love to see a PID automatically increase the temp, down to the monitoring of the flow and or ABV. Now that's a system worth looking into for full automation. I'm sure it's already done, in a industrial scale.
Great discussion, guys!
On George's AND Jesse's previous advice I outfitted my rig with a MyPin TD4, (specifically the TD4-SNR) as it is a PID controller with a manual duty cycle control mode. In PID mode, it reads head temperature via a thermocouple, and does closed loop PID control of my heating element. In manual mode, I just key in the percent duty cycle I want, from 0% to 100%. Initially I did stripping and spirit runs in PID mode but almost exclusively run in manual mode these days. I find that find-tuning what is going on inside my column is best done manually. [Heads Up: only the MyPin TD series also has a manual mode; the TA series does not.]
I run in manual mode now too. I like I can increase power by .1. So 35.8% power. I think I get the best of both worlds now. :)
awesome vid thank you kindly
I first used a B&H PID to control fermentation temp. I had a tiny space heater and taped the probe to the back of the fermentation bucket. So impressed. I now use it to distill water. Pretty great is all I can say.
I love it. Learned a lot.
YES YOU SHOULD use a PID. A PID gives you more control over the process. I loved the POP CORN reference.
Jesse, well done. I started with a PID controller because that’s what everyone, except you, seems to be promoting but never liked how the relay keeps cycling causing temp fluctuations. I just switched to a PWM controller and love it. The analog control of a PWM and smooth temps is awesome. Add to this the crazy low cost of a PWM controller (~$50 online) compared to a PID controller (`$200+) makes it a win win..
Makes me wonder what the promoters of PID controllers are seeing that I’m not.
Great topic guys!!
How deep to go with column or pot still control is very interesting. I think the better way to look at it is the energy in is the gas peddle on the car. Not speed control. It’s the amount of work the still is doing. Balanced with how Much energy is lost before exiting with no return ( no reflux) or if reflux how much or many times the material goes up and down the column. This is referenced as reflux ratio in real commercial chemical stills.
Real stills that truly separate things like solvents run with constant energy in for each product. And vary the reflux ratio and feed rates is continuous. It’s about the math behind the distillation. It’s PV=nRT. Renyolds law. How many stages of separation we have in our little
Toys. In commercial chemical stills is normally 10-50 trays. We might have 2-5 in our reflux hobby stills
But what a good conversation!
Long story short I’m with Jesse! I have to be as a chemical engineer. Sorry George
Not having a still, either pot or reflux for direct experience, I found this very interesting. I have used a PID control system for temperature and system management in a small cold chamber where the "working fluid" was CO2 that in turn cooled another product for testing. The process is very similar to what George describes. One additional thing we played around with was having a simple computer program control the "staging" of the PID settings. The industrial PID controllers were more expensive and less powerful than what can be bought "off the shelf" these days. Initially, we had to "teach it" - do several system runs while making note of times, temperatures, and what equipment got turned on and off. That information was incorporated into a simple program on the "Master machine" - in this case an old 486-based computer running FreeBSD. I'm sure the whole work s could be done on an Arduino - we didn't have one at the time. The "management" program was not very complicated, but having it did come in handy since most experiments took many hours to cycle through. It also had some alarms in the code to "scream and shout" if there was a failure in the cooling equipment, or any leaks.
I think with a solid-state real-time sensor that can measure alcohol vapor temperatures and concentrations, the same thing could be added to a PID system for distilling. (I'm sure such sensors are available - I haven't tried as yet to find one that's inexpensive and fairly robust when operating in temperatures of, say, 140 F to 205 F.
The time-of-flight alcohol percentage device that George and friends developed for the distiller who's blind might be used for part of the run, but one or more sensors placed much earlier in the "process" would extend the usefulness a lot. I haven't checked around - there are probably people already working on this exact problem, and solutions. The PID boxes already have a lot of "processing power" built in, so this would be more like an "overseer."
Anyway, an excellent discussion, and it was great to see the three of you meeting and having a great time.
Good discussion Jesse, I dont see why a PID would be easier, I have always used a SSR, set and forget pretty much, glad George could explain his PID usage, because his videos are very confusing as he sets temps for pure methanol and keep the still at that temp til it stops and calls it a fore shot cut, same for head and hearts, this worries me as in a pot still you cant use pure boiling points. Keep up the good work
Jessie I totally get what you are saying With limited power the process will be gradual I think I may switch from a PID set up to a PWM. I entered into this to get shorter heat up time. But your pot, your setup ,the Ambient temperature, And the ABV Of your mash will determine when things Happen. A small fire on a med size pot will boil. But with a PID set up your getting A large Fire on a small pot or even med sized. Point is were not trying to boil water. Its not the race to a boil its controlling the process for the best result. George taught me everything I Know Tho.
Lots of knowledge in one vid. Cheers
Best video thank you!
Awesome. I loved the chat.
The PID is awesome you control your flow curve by the flow visually and the temperature
Interesting comment about the Genio still. I was envious when you first posted it, due to its technology and features, but looks like too much technology can abstract away from the unique aspects of home distilling
Welcome back Jessie 👍
the three I look at and take and mix together for my own ideas and solutions.
Definitely need to see some examples of where to put probes. Just for me to understand more.
Is it wrong when I see you 3 hanging out ( ..great conversations and random knowledge and it looks like fun .....but ...) I always feel like there should be 2 stills running .. one reflux, one pot, just to see the difference from the same mash ... but that's me
That would be cool
Jesse, join the 21st century. I have built 3 of the George designed PID controllers and they are invaluable. I was just checking the fermenter box before I tripped over this video - which is in an unheated building were it is 19F (yes, really) - and the box is holding 85F +- 0.3F. I also have one on the mash tun and one on the still. It is fun to watch the controller(s) bring a tank up to temperature, let it overshoot a couple times and then you see it, like shooting ducks in flight, begin anticipating the power- off and power-on cycles. For this old plant engineer - who started in process control back in the vacuum tube day with electromagnetic relays - these PID controls are heaven sent.
Hey Jessie. Can you tell me where i can find details on your temp control setup, maybe schematics or something. Great channel by the way.
I am a retired industrial controls designer, and have some insight from that perspective. To me only very large or very small stills would need a PID. The average 5-50 gallon still would have little advantage from PID control. It is a hobby. Turn the little dials yourself. Smaller stills need the proportional derivative to control temperature because it changes very quickly. Small stills can be a headache because temperature changes caused by rapid heating and cooling can happen before you can react. No two batches of any liquid heat in the same time period, but there is consistency in the way they approach a certain temperature. Anticipating that in a quickly changing environment is best left to machines. Very large commercial ones would benefit not only from PID controllers but PLC controllers coordinating several PIDs to keep the process absolutely consistent in terms of time and temperature. Let's face it: Once the hardware and wash is set, all there is left is time and temperature. I seriously doubt that 'artisan' beer companies would be popping up like mushrooms like they are without PIDs and PLCs. I have a little three gallon still, and the PID accurately compensates for heating no matter how small the batch in the pot. I wouldn't run it without PID control.
Work with PID Control much of my working life, Dynamic Positioning (shipping), was the only way i could understand this lol. thanks fellas
Hi Jesse nice to listen to this conversation my still has a pid and gass i start on both then when it starts to run at approximately 65 c i switch of the gas turn my pid control pot between 58 TO 60 volts to my 3000what element i then set my pid on 90 deg cell it it then remains constant 65c climbing over 12 to 15 hours to get to 90deg or 40% and i get between 85%and 65% alcohol it is so controlled not stopping and starting a constant climb over time but i can set it to 90 deg put a big bottle under it and go to bed and not worry about it running tails or running away to the boil
Great topic conversation, personally I rather use a PID it’s nearly set and forget!
I have used both of these controlers. Jesse controler is a pulse width controller. It varies the power to the element ( very constant heat). Goerges controller is solid state relay it varies the time the element is turned or off (heat is full power on or heat is completely off). Solid state relays are on or off, that is the way they work. So when Goerges controler is on, it is full power on. When it is off, it is zero power. Solid state relays do not supply constant heat! So the problem is not the PID controler. What we really need is a pulse width modulation PID controler not a solid state relay PID controler
You can also map in an increase in power curve in some PID units which will accurately match the increases that George does by bumping it up. Jesse's method appears to be more manual but like driving automatic verses manual. Both options are valid & usable, depending upon the operator.
Great conversation. The real way to do this would be by measuring the partial pressure of the brew aka the volumetric flow rate of the gasses. However because of the ideal gas law as a rough measure, Temperature is linearly correlated to vapor velocity through volumetric flow and pressure head. So Jesse loses per% efficiency at the beginning of the run and george loses per% with each temperature change
I have always considered the homedistiller.org dogma of "PIDs are useless" as not really useful. PIDs are just another way to control the process. If you use a column and you want to obtain a high separation between fractions, what you should do is to stabilize the column (for a long time), then get some product, then stabilize again the column, than take some product, then stabilize the column etc. The result is to get many fractions that are later examined one by one. This can be done with any kind of column still but it cannot be denied that stabilizing the column by keeping it at exactly the temperature that keeps it stable is more practical than (imagining a liquid management column with a fixed heat input) just increasing the cold water in the dephlegmator to obtain 100% reflux. In the PID case, you are keeping the column just in equilibrium by controlling the heat; in the liquid management - fixed heat input case, you are just wasting both heat and water during the stabilization periods (you put more heat in the system, wasting it, and you waste water to subtract it, it's a Sisyphus job). One can collect the fractions by aiming at a constant flow of product and collecting the resulting fractions but the theory (Nixon) says that you should actually wait for the equilibrium in the column to be re-reached after each withdrawal if you want optimal separation, you get small quantities of product and then you should re-establish the equilibrium, because the equilibrium is altered each time some product is withdrawn. If one goes for "maniacal" separation of fractions and "maniacal" repeateability of results, the PID solution is probably more effective, and it also saves water and energy. For the "non-maniacal" distiller the two solutions are equally effective, but the use of a PID is certainly not irrational nor unpractical.
You guys should rig up Jesse's still so that he controls one heating element with a SSR, and George controls the other with a PID.
Two guys using two different control systems to try and achieve a common ground- sounds like a funny experiment!
I've run both pot and reflux without and with a PID. In my opinion, the PID is far and away a more precise method to control temperature. It does this with less fussing with the temp knob. I would never run without a PID again.
One thing I think you all missed is the huge difference in the two types of stills. A pot still really only needs temp control, but a reflux is a whole different system. Because most reflux columns have both an external and an internal condenser, water flow control of the internal condenser is critical in addition to temp control. To get the perfect outflow on a reflux both are extremely important. Anyone who's ever run a T-500 reflux column knows how much of a pain it is constantly adjusting the needle valve. If you want the T-500 to really excel, use PID and separate the water flow to the individual condensers and put needle valves on each.
Hypothetically, using a pid on a pot still, once the column and boiler are in equilibrium (say around 150°F) could you set the pid temp to 204f and reduce the amperage of the heating element to the point where it gradually increase throughout the entirety of the run to give you a constant and consistent flow rate? Does that make sense? Also curious if there are points in the run where it takes more energy (non linear) to increase the temp by one degree? I'm thinking of smoking a pork shoulder, it'll sit at ~130 for a while till the convective tissue breaks down then starts shooting up again. Wondering if the azeotropic changes along the way has a similar effect. You guys are awesome, thanks for all the content!
There was so much good information in this video. Thank you so much for sharing it.Might I suggest that next time the three of you not be intoxicated while sharing this information. LOL
You guys rock!, merci beaucoup ;)
It does depend on your setup I have used a 4 gallon pot with a stainless steel bowl. With a 2000 Watt induction cook top. From start I turn it on High seer. And then turn it on again after 4hours cause it cuts off. but I have made the best shine from that thing. it seemed to not heat up or go past where I was in production. I now have a Brewhaus 3 inch column 3500 watt element 8 gallon pot and a PID. I ran it slow, so I thought but I got the Blue hue in my shine. Listening to you guys ill only adjust by 2 degrees on my next run. I seen George Run the reflux right off the pot on other videos. Does that work well? Do you use Packing still? At first I ran four packing I'm gonna try three this time .I'm looking for 135 proof before I barrel
Some interesting chemical engineering control topics are being discussed here. Using a pot still does not require a complex control system, however, a batch reflux system needs some more complex discussion, none of which can be solved in a 15 min conversation. Nice
Nice video. It was good to see Bearded too, he has been MIA.
Yeah go tell him to get some more videos out! I know he has a few in the pipeline
Hi Jesse, late to the party here… new to the craft. A thought on your comment of maintaining vapor speed. Using a pid to control column pressure would work for keeping a steady flow.
Tried using PID in couple ways for running still.
On my Flute, you can clearly see every time element is on and off, plates pulsate, not very helpful.
Then i tried using PID to control water valve in dephlegmator to keep temperature above it at set temps, column was shaking every time. I think if i could get a variable speed valve it would work better.
For me it was too much trouble looking after the still when i was using PID, so I put back POT+SSR controller, a lot less hustle and more predictable.
At this stage in my novice experience and current set up, this discussion is of great interest but somewhat academic. I have a 22ltr Chinese pot still. The temperature gauge on the lid senses the vapour temperature in the vapour space. The gauge appears to be within a degree or so of a digital temperature gauge I have - I did a side by side test using hot water of increasing temperature.
I have a single induction hot plate for a heating source. A PID isn't going to work on this set up.
I can vary the cooking power in 10% increments. Full 100% during heating up, then I've learned to drop it to 20% for a slow steady run with frequent jar changes. I lay out the jars in sequential order for later tasting assessment to determine what is turfed out, kept for faints and kept for blending/hearts.
This set up doesn't start producing distillate until about 84degC which goes against all the methanol and heads chemistry. If I drop power to 10% in an effort to hold the temperature on the way up, temperature drops - there's not enough heat input to overcome the losses. (Perhaps I should wrap a towel around the pot for insulation?) But at 20% power there's enough heat input for a slow steady spirit run.
At 20% power, the temperature slowly rises - it seems to hold at 86degC and 94 degC for a while during the rise, but rise it does, all the way to 100degC if I let it.
Not sure what to change about my "process" with this current set up. Any thoughts folks?
If you are willing to set up a PID why not install a spin wheel and set the PID to keep a constant spin rate by changing temperture?
Many people have already stated it.....
My suggestion is this......
1) Bored and bearded makes a mash....
2) George and Jessie run the mash through reflux and pot stills with and without PID. Let's see the difference.
Personally, I like both ways but I would go for the PID.
I love the crazy flavoring, but I always love to end end with a good hearty spirit.
(Koval Chicago whiskey for example)......thats the perrrrfect hearty spirit to end with.
It sounds like you could use a PLC in combination with temp probes and Hall effect flow sensors and create a logic script that looks for the combination of temp and flow
In terms of connecting the pid probe to the point of no return, do you use a thermowell or a probe compressing fitting? Any advice?
Did my first run on the weekend. Reflux.
1900W electric boiler set at 105°c . It only got to 94°c . Then as I took alcohol out boiler temp raised to about 98°c .
From what I've read this is what is supposed to happen. But are you guys doing something different or was this the difference between reflux and pot still you referenced earlier.
Thanks
If you know your gear ratio you can use the tach to calculate your speed. My point is that a thermometer in the kettle is useful if you know what your looking for. I.e how long you have b4 you are going to start running how far into the run you are and where your stopping point is.
Depending on your PID it’s possible to set a maximum slope on your PID. I work in electronics and often have to bake printed circuit boards. We need to stick to a max temp rise of 3 deg per min. The PID I use is able to set the slope. I haven’t tried but I’m sure it goes the other way.
Could you do a video on controlling a heating element in water using a PID -- and efficiency of SSR vs SCR?
I have an 8KW Atmor tankless water heater that has two switched heating elements. I want to add stable electronic temperature control. But I can't find good information about the different options!
Seems the PID + SSR MAY have longer switching time, and that MAY reduce heating element life from thermal cycling vs a higher speed SCR. But I am having trouble finding the real answer.
Who's to say that the PID has to target a temperature using a thermocouple? It should be possible to collect flow data during a manual run, then have the PID match the flow curve instead. It would give more consistency between batches of the same recipe, and it would be using the same method of measurement that you are doing by eye now. (I'm not sure if there's a commercial unit that you could use for this right now, but I could bang together something using either an arduino or a teensy (Like James Bruton did in a couple of his recent robots, opendog for example))
You could absolutely use a flow rate sensor and combined with the PID controlling temperature and flow rate, it would run on it's own. But it would cost a fortune to set up and a long time to get programmed right.
Great topic. From the discussion it sounds like you guys are both doing the same thing. Jesse changes the power into his still by manually adjusting a variable resister. Where George changes power into his still by bumping up a temperature setpoint controlled by a PID. Both gentleman can chase a flowrate or temperature using a PID.
My 3 fav right here
I just switched to a potentiometer style control instead of using temperature control. Soooo much easier. I don’t have to constantly raise the temp. I get a slow, steady flow and no adjustments really needed.and most importantly a gentle approach as to when product first comes out. So what is the advantage of constantly bumping up temperature with a PID?
Ihave a T500 boiler with the still spirits copper dome and condenser. how can i run it cooler for my spirit runs. ive heard you briefly mention some type of temp regulartor. what kind do you use with the t500 boiler? i dont believe its a PID just some sort of power regulator
yeh Im gonna switch to PID. I get some big swings and use both STC-1000 and the ITC 308. ITC 308 has some real lag to it's PV (Perceived Value). It's not real quick. It has a huge probe so I assume it's larger mass takes longer to heat up and cool down compared to smaller probes on other devices such as the STC-1000. ITC 308 is a neat package but has its problems.
Wish I had seen this before building my PID......
I like pid with pot still , and just manual dial and eyes. I move it up manually move it up a hair little at a time if that makes sense. I was wondering if George was bumping the pid up and the and learning how much to bump ever time.. with pid it’s either to much or not enough. Enjoy this video 👍❤️
In the planning stage of a still build with a NEW distiller that used to home brew beer. So, I am not an expert at anything, but not a complete novice either. My question is about the beginning of heating the wash. If I use a PID controller how do I keep from scorching the wash? If I understand this right, the PID will read the 80 deg. F temp as really low, right? That in turn, will make the PID give 100% power to the element. Will that not potentially scorch the wash trying to get it up to temp? Or is this a non issue as long as my wash is clean of any "bits" of grain or yeast and and its by products.
My concern is, I would like to be using a 240v 3500w element on a 15.5 gal beer keg still. I was thinking (dangerous, I know) the 240v is more efficient and the 3500W gives me options to do 12 gallon stripping runs in the future and not take all day. However, I still want to do 6 gallon spirit runs and some smaller runs. Would the 2000w 120v be better with the PID?
Any insight would be greatly appreciated. Thanks
I have a 3" Boka still and I tried a PID on it. I had no luck it would overshoot so bad. so now I use a triac power controller to help control the output flow rate. I do not use the triac control the head temperature rather to slow down the amount of steam coming up so not to over power my coil cooling ability.
When using the PID, did you get equalize column temperature 1st? It sounds like maybe you didn't. Some PID ship with not all 3 points active as well.
Because temperature drops at night or rainy and convection applies but I would leave it at steady like you say like 180
You could have a arduino program that controls the temperature the PID is set at, so over a fixed amount of time it slowly increases the PID temp setting higher and higher to get a nice curve into the hearts.
So instead of controlling the temperature, put a load cell under your collection vessel and let the flow be controlled by the PID.
One could keep the PID system to control the temperature and use the output of the flow rate PID as an input to the temp PID.
Listening to what both of them are saying- they are doing the exact same thing. Both of them are observing the output of the condenser, and then making adjustments to keep a desired output amount- but their "control" is quite different- George uses a PID that uses temp input to control the power input so maintain the desired flow, Jesse uses a power controller directly to maintain the desired flow.
The one question I would have for George- have you actually measured the power input as you get to the end of a run? Remember, you are setting a desired temp, and letting the controller run the power output. It would be VERY interesting to see the actual power output of the controller to see what is happening- one one hand, you need more power for more temp (temp = energy), on the other hand, you need less power for less mass (heat losses in the system will be greater were liquid is touching the walls and conveting off the side of the still, as vapor convection on the inside isn't as efficient as liquid conduction). So there's a real balance there. The assumption is higher temp = higher power- which is a good assumption- but the only real way to know is to measure the power. Which you can do with a simple power meter.
So I use both pid and src. To do both with 2 elements
Jesse, I noticed an error. You said you use an SSR (solid state relay), when you are actually using an SSVR (solid state voltage regulator). Relays turn on and off, SSVRs will have a TRIAC (some call it an SCR, which is a one way device) inside them to modulate the AC power going through it.
I can see the benefit to both arguments. I just guess me and George are kindred spirits. I want to know temps all throughout the column, and I want to be able to control that to a very fine degree. That said, I don't think using a PID on a pot still is of any benefit, but on a reflux still, it can be handy. On a reflux still with a very tall column, you can get a general idea of the vapor composition based on the still head temperature. And if you make the same recipe enough times, you can get really good at making cuts based on still head temperature.
I also think you watch this > th-cam.com/video/k9Xo900woaU/w-d-xo.html You may notice something when he talks about the cuts they make.
This seems more flow-rate vs temperature control. I don't distill but hand-fiddling power for a specific flow sounds successful. Just apply the PI/PID computation using the flow-rate as the primary feedback, not temperature, to make it automatic. With a 204 F cap and shut-down when the rate fall off some amount. Actually, I would probably integrate flow-error and route temperature, not error, into the Proportional and Derivative terms to keep ahead of things while avoiding kick from trimming the process. There may even be a preferred flow curve and the controller could be set to track that from a table.