I think, this is a bit misleading. Clan Smoke Jaguar aka Clan Burnt Kitten were a-holes through and through. Because they were massive a-holes even to some of their own people, they were hated even by the other Clans. That's why they became "Burnt Kitten". I have never heard of them having a shred of humanity and this even goes down to genetic level.
Or as we called them in my WMO guild, the Smoke Jack@sses. We should have seen a bit of retcon coming when PGI posted those interviews and someone was like "I don't necessarily agree with the characterization of Clan Smoke Jaguar as villains." That was a lot like saying "I don't agree with FASA, or any other writers who came before me."
I don't feel this is a retcon so much as us seeing the Jaguars through a "what if" propaganda filter. It's how the Jaguars would see themselves, and definitely not how they really acted. Propaganda was huge even for the clans, and Smoke Jaguar were one of the most hypocritical of all.
@@THEGRUMPTRUCK Yeah they were generally a lot more aggressive and belligerent in the books....but considering the game is set from their perspective it would be understandably difficult to make the characters relatable to the player....especially if the player hadn't read the books, which came out decades ago by now...
@@Jinmarui I feel like this is the hand of the devs trying to make them more palatable cause no the smoke jaguars treat everyone like this the guy who ordered this was merely busted down to star colonel and that was probably because there was political backlash meanline mercanies 2 and 4 let's you be a total psycho and it works cause your there and it's done matter of fact
They weren't entirely without decency, but ironically that's what truly brought about their downfall - it was precisely because of one of their own couldn't stand the atrocities their Clan was committing that the Inner Sphere was able to mosey on over to Huntress and kick the Jaguars' teeth in.
Too bad the entire game to this point has the Smoke Jags acting like morally upstanding types concerned for the lives of civilians - because we can't have the player being on the side of the Bad Guys. Also, I don't recall the Jags EVER feeling sorry for nuking Edo, or relieving the people who did it from command. Is this a retcon, or did I miss something along the way?
So Dieter Osis did challenge Perez in lore, and won. That said, yeah you are correct on the majority. This game portrays Smoke Jaguar a little too positively imo. Jade Falcon would have been better, and who knows, we could have had Nicolai Malthus instead along with running battles against the 1st Somerset.
Yep, there were no repurcussions. IIRC in the books the Smoke Jaguars were seeing the citizens as combatants, as they broke the rules of Zellbrigen and dishonorably attacked the warrior caste, despite a truce. The Clans never really heard of the Ares Convention. Ultimately the Edo incident lead to the Great Houses realizing the extent of the threat by the Clans, the new Star League and finally the end of Clan Smoke Jaguar.
I think what the game was try to do was show Smoke Jaguars from the perspective of Jayden and his sibko they start idealistic and believing that Smoke Jaguar is a great and honorable clan but as the story goes on they see more of the true Smoke Jaguar and try to rationalize it or blame it on individuals like Perez but in the end Smoke Jaguars are bullies who believe themselves superior than others. I do think that the game could’ve had more interaction with the other clans so we could see how they conduct themselves compared to the Smoke Jaguars.
The clans, collectively, knew about the Ares Convention because it was a 25th century agreement. That doesn't mean their clone children learned about the Ares Convention in history class. Bombarding Edo was still not okay, by mostclan standards. There were _finally_ some repercussions when Operation Bulldog started. As I recall, there was a point when Clan Smoke Jaguar asked the other clans for help, and the answer amounted to "So much nope". I see parallels with WWII, the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising, and the eventual destruction of Warsaw. The nazis didn't care what it took for their army to end the uprising. The real consequence was all the forces tied up fighting urban guerillas, when the German forces on the front lines really wanted some help. Whoever else called CSJ "space nazis" might not have been thinking of that, but it's one more reason for the Space Nazis nickname to stick.
Regarding the characters looking... "Off-model", many of the characters in this game have been part of established canon since the 80s-90s, and if you look at the art from the books from this time, you'll note they've got an uncanny look, especially regarding their unusually large teeth. In the pursuit of following the lore as closely as possible, they ended up taking in both the benefits and the flaws.
Total retcon, to appease. They changed the narrative. Originally, in the books, this was sanctioned by the Smoke Jaguar Keshek. The Jaguars were the "absolute bad guys". The destruction of Edo, made the Great Houses realize, that they face an enemy that does not care about the Ares Convention, as they never signed it. From a Clanner perspective, the Citizens of Edo were breaking every rule of honorable combat and became combatants... Ultimately the actions taken lead to the unification of the Houses under the new Star League and ultimately to the "Trial of Extinction" against the Smoke Jaguars, though.
@@shagrat47This is exactly what happens in the lore, and Perez was disgraced and lost a Trial of Position over it. Plus, the Great Houses themselves stopped caring about the Ares Conventions and renounced it ever since the First Succession War anyway.
I like how Wimmer's shaking while she requests surkai. Maybe in part because of the dishonor to her unit, but Weaver could have killed her for this, and she wasn't entirely certain she wouldn't...
Several factors definitely contributed to Smoke Jaguar's downfall. Many of them were directly their own idiocy and hubris and some were the fault of all the clans entirely.
Foch wouldn't have been the one to approve of a deal with the Smoke Jaguars, he was just the representative for Comstar. Any deal would have to be approved by Primus Waterly
that I can kind of understand it's comstar being comstar so they say the name of there military leader to make the clans more comfy that sounds like something they'd do
They have the worst INTEL every, I mean you literally kill hundrds of mechs with your lance through the campaign and they always like "oh shit heavy lance incoming we did not see that one coming...."
The Watch was founded by Kerensky to spy on the Not Named Clan (well the organisation that became the Watch), it became Intelser in 2980, then 'The Watch' just prior to the invasion.
@@specter1893 Kinda, but they were useless. IS intelligence agencies are vastly superior at their job. Sarna: _While some Clans, most notably the Wolves and Jade Falcons, took steps to upgrade their intelligence-gathering capabilities, the Watch as a whole would remain ineffective during the invasion and the years following the Truce of Tukayyid. The organization's greatest success came following the election of Kael Pershaw of Clan Jade Falcon to the position of Loremaster of the Clans, when in 3054 the Watch succeeded in a campaign of misinformation directed at ComStar's ROM, causing them to mistake the location and allegiance of many Clan units._
A version of the Watch was first founded by Nicholas Kerensky to spy on Clan Wolverine and originally answered only to the ilKhan. The progenitor of the modern Clan Watch, Intelser, was formed in 2980 by order of the Grand Council as a means of gathering intelligence on the state of the Inner Sphere. In the tabletop game and books, we learn that The Watch of the 2980, each Clan had made a similar version, but the mentality of each Clan also effected The Watch and their Intelligence gathering techniques. Many clans saw The Watch as an inferior force, was given little respect, and very little backup or equipment or personnel in or order to complete their tasks or assignments, even after ilKhan Showers had instructed the rest of the Clans to create such a force after the Inner Sphere Invasion had begun. The only two Clans that took Intelligence gathering seriously was Wolf Clan, and the Jade Falcon, although the Jade Falcon didn't really get serious about proper training and upkeep of their version until after the Battle of Twycross. In that battle the majority of Jade Falcon forces were decimated in a narrow valley corridor, lined with explosive charges to bury the mechs. This fact was due to very little to no knowledge of the surrounding area, poor scouting of the pass the Jade Falcon units were traversing, no knowledge of enemy strength, and the battle also occurred during a sandstorm that made visibility nearly impossible. After that, many Clans both within the Inner Sphere invasion and at the Pentagon worlds began to understand that they needed to update their Intelligence services or risk a similar fate in the future.
Because these guys are descended from a crazy Scottish black ops units that were meant to protect the Cameron line, They failed that and now the galaxy has to deal with them still venting their frustration out on other people. (Sidenote this is a very simplified Explanation of Smoke Jaguar, They are all supreme assholes)
Reminder that their Education is worse than royals. A Merc would have a better chance at surviving in a Mech than some upsnot baron from the inner sphere.
![ปฏิเสธไม่ไหว (Crush on you) - LIPTA feat. No One Else [TEASER MV]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/VC689EgdSIw/mqdefault.jpg)
Ito: "We're not all seeing, Galaxy Commander"
Wimmer's face: "Bullshit."
And a local phone company realized that these furry wannabes didn't pay their bill in over a millennium.
Comstar: PAY YOUR BILLS FUCKO
I think, this is a bit misleading. Clan Smoke Jaguar aka Clan Burnt Kitten were a-holes through and through. Because they were massive a-holes even to some of their own people, they were hated even by the other Clans. That's why they became "Burnt Kitten". I have never heard of them having a shred of humanity and this even goes down to genetic level.
Or as we called them in my WMO guild, the Smoke Jack@sses.
We should have seen a bit of retcon coming when PGI posted those interviews and someone was like "I don't necessarily agree with the characterization of Clan Smoke Jaguar as villains." That was a lot like saying "I don't agree with FASA, or any other writers who came before me."
I don't feel this is a retcon so much as us seeing the Jaguars through a "what if" propaganda filter. It's how the Jaguars would see themselves, and definitely not how they really acted. Propaganda was huge even for the clans, and Smoke Jaguar were one of the most hypocritical of all.
@@THEGRUMPTRUCK Yeah they were generally a lot more aggressive and belligerent in the books....but considering the game is set from their perspective it would be understandably difficult to make the characters relatable to the player....especially if the player hadn't read the books, which came out decades ago by now...
@@Jinmarui I feel like this is the hand of the devs trying to make them more palatable cause no the smoke jaguars treat everyone like this the guy who ordered this was merely busted down to star colonel and that was probably because there was political backlash meanline mercanies 2 and 4 let's you be a total psycho and it works cause your there and it's done matter of fact
They weren't entirely without decency, but ironically that's what truly brought about their downfall - it was precisely because of one of their own couldn't stand the atrocities their Clan was committing that the Inner Sphere was able to mosey on over to Huntress and kick the Jaguars' teeth in.
Man, the Smoke Jaguars are something else. Belligerence and cruelty seem to be their watchwords. No wonder they're extinct.
And thank god for it
@@robgraham5697 They aren't anymore. Look up the Fidelis
Unfortunately... enough of them lived that they now exist again in the 32nd century. Thanks Wolf Empire
@@fanusobscurus God fucking damnit
@@fanusobscurus The Fidelis is a more noble breed of Smoke Jaguar. Read Forever Faithful
Too bad the entire game to this point has the Smoke Jags acting like morally upstanding types concerned for the lives of civilians - because we can't have the player being on the side of the Bad Guys. Also, I don't recall the Jags EVER feeling sorry for nuking Edo, or relieving the people who did it from command. Is this a retcon, or did I miss something along the way?
So Dieter Osis did challenge Perez in lore, and won.
That said, yeah you are correct on the majority. This game portrays Smoke Jaguar a little too positively imo. Jade Falcon would have been better, and who knows, we could have had Nicolai Malthus instead along with running battles against the 1st Somerset.
Yep, there were no repurcussions.
IIRC in the books the Smoke Jaguars were seeing the citizens as combatants, as they broke the rules of Zellbrigen and dishonorably attacked the warrior caste, despite a truce. The Clans never really heard of the Ares Convention.
Ultimately the Edo incident lead to the Great Houses realizing the extent of the threat by the Clans, the new Star League and finally the end of Clan Smoke Jaguar.
I think what the game was try to do was show Smoke Jaguars from the perspective of Jayden and his sibko they start idealistic and believing that Smoke Jaguar is a great and honorable clan but as the story goes on they see more of the true Smoke Jaguar and try to rationalize it or blame it on individuals like Perez but in the end Smoke Jaguars are bullies who believe themselves superior than others.
I do think that the game could’ve had more interaction with the other clans so we could see how they conduct themselves compared to the Smoke Jaguars.
The clans, collectively, knew about the Ares Convention because it was a 25th century agreement. That doesn't mean their clone children learned about the Ares Convention in history class.
Bombarding Edo was still not okay, by mostclan standards. There were _finally_ some repercussions when Operation Bulldog started. As I recall, there was a point when Clan Smoke Jaguar asked the other clans for help, and the answer amounted to
"So much nope".
I see parallels with WWII, the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising, and the eventual destruction of Warsaw. The nazis didn't care what it took for their army to end the uprising. The real consequence was all the forces tied up fighting urban guerillas, when the German forces on the front lines really wanted some help. Whoever else called CSJ "space nazis" might not have been thinking of that, but it's one more reason for the Space Nazis nickname to stick.
@@magosryzak7477 also we could get Turkeys as that was the totem mech of clan shit pigeon
Regarding the characters looking... "Off-model", many of the characters in this game have been part of established canon since the 80s-90s, and if you look at the art from the books from this time, you'll note they've got an uncanny look, especially regarding their unusually large teeth. In the pursuit of following the lore as closely as possible, they ended up taking in both the benefits and the flaws.
War crimed a little too closed to the sun.
Total retcon, to appease. They changed the narrative. Originally, in the books, this was sanctioned by the Smoke Jaguar Keshek. The Jaguars were the "absolute bad guys".
The destruction of Edo, made the Great Houses realize, that they face an enemy that does not care about the Ares Convention, as they never signed it.
From a Clanner perspective, the Citizens of Edo were breaking every rule of honorable combat and became combatants...
Ultimately the actions taken lead to the unification of the Houses under the new Star League and ultimately to the "Trial of Extinction" against the Smoke Jaguars, though.
@@shagrat47This is exactly what happens in the lore, and Perez was disgraced and lost a Trial of Position over it. Plus, the Great Houses themselves stopped caring about the Ares Conventions and renounced it ever since the First Succession War anyway.
I like how Wimmer's shaking while she requests surkai. Maybe in part because of the dishonor to her unit, but Weaver could have killed her for this, and she wasn't entirely certain she wouldn't...
Genetically modified super soldiers shocked to discover problem that can't be solved by applying forehead to it
More like Smoked jaguar
*Me, remembering Kentares IV*
I don't get why everyone's so upset.
Several factors definitely contributed to Smoke Jaguar's downfall. Many of them were directly their own idiocy and hubris and some were the fault of all the clans entirely.
Apparently this the Galaxy where Smoke Jaguar put most of their nice people.
Foch wouldn't have been the one to approve of a deal with the Smoke Jaguars, he was just the representative for Comstar.
Any deal would have to be approved by Primus Waterly
that I can kind of understand it's comstar being comstar so they say the name of there military leader to make the clans more comfy that sounds like something they'd do
Ito is a damn traitor to the Draconis combine. Long live House Kurita!!!
Good lord what is going on with their faces
They have the worst INTEL every, I mean you literally kill hundrds of mechs with your lance through the campaign and they always like "oh shit heavy lance incoming we did not see that one coming...."
More like Ares Suggestions.
very human mouth movements
Ah Smoke Jaguars, in the end they really become smoked! All hail the Inner Sphere!
what's with their mouths?
is the voice acting and facial gestures suppose to be this over the top? lmfao
bomber Perez do it again
Why do they all talk through their teeth
They are Smoke Jaguar, they all have the Quirk Perpetual Snarl.
I am fairly certain the Watch was founded after Tukkayyid.
The Watch was founded by Kerensky to spy on the Not Named Clan (well the organisation that became the Watch), it became Intelser in 2980, then 'The Watch' just prior to the invasion.
The watch was founded by Nicholas Kerensky
@@specter1893 Kinda, but they were useless. IS intelligence agencies are vastly superior at their job.
Sarna:
_While some Clans, most notably the Wolves and Jade Falcons, took steps to upgrade their intelligence-gathering capabilities, the Watch as a whole would remain ineffective during the invasion and the years following the Truce of Tukayyid. The organization's greatest success came following the election of Kael Pershaw of Clan Jade Falcon to the position of Loremaster of the Clans, when in 3054 the Watch succeeded in a campaign of misinformation directed at ComStar's ROM, causing them to mistake the location and allegiance of many Clan units._
A version of the Watch was first founded by Nicholas Kerensky to spy on Clan Wolverine and originally answered only to the ilKhan. The progenitor of the modern Clan Watch, Intelser, was formed in 2980 by order of the Grand Council as a means of gathering intelligence on the state of the Inner Sphere. In the tabletop game and books, we learn that The Watch of the 2980, each Clan had made a similar version, but the mentality of each Clan also effected The Watch and their Intelligence gathering techniques. Many clans saw The Watch as an inferior force, was given little respect, and very little backup or equipment or personnel in or order to complete their tasks or assignments, even after ilKhan Showers had instructed the rest of the Clans to create such a force after the Inner Sphere Invasion had begun. The only two Clans that took Intelligence gathering seriously was Wolf Clan, and the Jade Falcon, although the Jade Falcon didn't really get serious about proper training and upkeep of their version until after the Battle of Twycross. In that battle the majority of Jade Falcon forces were decimated in a narrow valley corridor, lined with explosive charges to bury the mechs. This fact was due to very little to no knowledge of the surrounding area, poor scouting of the pass the Jade Falcon units were traversing, no knowledge of enemy strength, and the battle also occurred during a sandstorm that made visibility nearly impossible. After that, many Clans both within the Inner Sphere invasion and at the Pentagon worlds began to understand that they needed to update their Intelligence services or risk a similar fate in the future.
The Watch was founded to hunt for the Wolverines. It took it a while after the Invasion to be much good at Inner Sphere intrigue.
Why Smoke Jaguar's...trash
The clans in general are just trash.
Because these guys are descended from a crazy Scottish black ops units that were meant to protect the Cameron line, They failed that and now the galaxy has to deal with them still venting their frustration out on other people.
(Sidenote this is a very simplified Explanation of Smoke Jaguar, They are all supreme assholes)
Reminder that their Education is worse than royals. A Merc would have a better chance at surviving in a Mech than some upsnot baron from the inner sphere.