For extraction shooters, usually gear loss and seasonal wipes was the thing that pushed people away from trying, with wipes by argument "why should I play if I'm going to lose my progress anyway?" Can't blame them for these reasons though
The gear loss thing I understand. It made me not want to get into EFT a long time ago. But after giving it a shot, I can't go back. The excitement it adds to a fight is just too great. The wipe thing, though, that's hard to spin without it seeming like spin.
My friends only played S1 of Cycle: Frontier with me due to gear wipes. I agree completely with your viewpoint here. Wipes are inherently indicative of something unsustainable in a game. I feel like MMO’s may have the best solutions for how extraction shooter end game balancing ought to operate. Raids, guild warfare, base building, etc. Really crossing my fingers that Dune Awakening could fill the space left by Cycle Frontier for me. 🤞🤞🤞
I completely agree with what you said. Wipes are a development tool, not a gameplay crutch. They are necessary to test bugs and new features during a game's development cycle, but once that game goes into full release, the wipes should be eliminated and players should be able to enjoy everything that they've worked toward. I think the idea of necessary wipes comes from EFT where the game is in a perpetual beta state, and can use that excuse to continue using regular wipes, and since many other companies see the success of EFT and take inspiration from it, they also bring in its wipe system as well. Look at old CoD games like the original MW series. There was a prestige system for players to reset their progress and allow them to replay the gameplay loop. But the important part is that it was optional and players who just wanted to play with all of their hard earned unlockables wouldn't be forced to lose their progress. You could incentivize players to prestige in extraction style games by offering them increased storage space or larger safe containers per each prestige up to a certain amount. That's just one way to do it. But a game that forces wipes on players just tells me that the devs don't know how to keep the game entertaining past a certain point.
I think there's a couple ways to get it done: hardcore mode, could be an option to increase the difficulty of the new wipe in various ways. The other is the rewards need to be more ego boosting. Like name banners and such. Things that get displayed for the flex of it. Ty for watching
Your comment about players playing games that their friends are playing rings so true. One of the main reasons I didn't straight up no life The Cycle or Tarkov is because my primary friend group didn't enjoy the games all that much. Once I got people to play we'd grind for quite a while. Adding easy clans and stuff would be really cool, especially the idea of having them compete and incentivize them to work together and grind for the betterment of the clan. That sounds really cool imo
Unfortunately, genres outside of MMOs have been putting less and less attention into organized play (outside of esports). It's a shame because it solves a lot player retention issues. Ty for watching
This is a well informed analysis of the subject and I appreciate this discussion. I feel the same way vigor managed to move away from wipes with a season exclusive battle pass too. I have posted this video as feedback to project l33t in hopes that they can take inspiration. This is exactly the video we need made to help developers in this genre. Thank you, I can't wait to see what you do next.
I was researching Arena BO infinite and the mobile experience. They apparently have wipes but it's limited, I think a dedicated video would be very informative. One feature I thought was very innovative was they have a map called armoury with a higher loot percentage, there's a catch you have to pay in game currency and meet a minimum gear score requirement to even play it. You were speculation on how to remove gear from the economy effectively and it seems like this might be a interesting system to break down. I hope this peaks your interest, thank for the great content.
You're right. Wipes in games are just an arbitrary way to solve the problem. The only reason I stayed with Cycle as long as I did was because it was pretty easy to get to the endgame loot in comparison to Tarkov. When I have played Tarkov in the past, I usually only play for one wipe, because it's too much effort to grind everything over again so soon.
I wouldn't even mind it if it were a separate server. Kind of like a v rising server that has scheduled weekly wipes. So people know to set time aside for a grind but they know what they're signing up for.
Came back to the video from a link in Arc Raiders subreddit. What about durability without a repair system? On a long enough timeline all gear would leave and need replaced. You can tweak this depending what direction you want to go (does low end or high end last longer or is it all the same for example).
Durability as a mechanic I think is a given moving forward. It sucks up resources and adds costs to using items that naturally curves it's appearance in games. It still holds the same problem as lets say hiking up costs directly: only the people struggling will effected. But at least it offers the ability to attain said items. It just calls into question on your ability to maintain it. Having no means of repair magnifies the problem for players outside the top I think. It devalues the full item in 2 ways: knowing that it has limited uses players who have a harder time will opt to spend resources on them much less run them. On the other end this really wont curve the usage for those top players. It also makes looting said items off other player players less enjoyable. Though if the objective is strictly to reduce gear inflation it could work to push it in the right direction (even if I am skeptical about it doing that in the long term). I would just be concerned about its other effects.
@thegeck0frontier better question, is this something that is solvable with extraction games as is? Overall I still hold to my point that extraction should be a loop, not the whole game.
@@PyroTech03 It might not be to be in its current form. Hunt has grown over the years with no wipes but its gear fear is minimal at best. The solution might very well be something like survival games have where you have individual servers that reset at their own pace. Could you elaborate on what you mean by "loop"?
@@thegeck0frontier it's like I said essentially in a comment below here. But extraction gameplay should in my opinion probably be part of a larger game. Imagine a PvP mmo for instance where your guild can hold territory but one of the resources to maintain a shield or some harvester is something you have to drop down on or venture into a special region and find that resource.... Then extract with it and other loot. You go back to your guild base and use what you found in other parts of the game. Whether that's guild wars, dungeons, territory conquest/control.... Or a current working example at its most basic would be the Division and it's Dark Zone. Everything you get there feeds into the broader game. You don't have the gear loss aspect here but you could call The Division as the start of extraction games. Just someone thought it'd be better if you took the darkzone and made it into it's own game.
I mean I agree so much with this idea I typed up an overly complicated version of it. Posted it on the Arc Raiders reddit. Project: Warlords. I truely believe clans would fit the idea of a "larger" game and if done right solves the issues wipes are a band-aid for. So I we're on the same page on this one
Thank you for the fantastic and much needed discussion on this subject! IMO: Regardless of what problems wipes might solve, “programming” your community to only care about your game for a few weeks every 4-6 months is a losing formula for longevity. I think the only reason Tarkov’s player base has survived as long as it has simply comes down to not having any true competition for people wanting an extraction based shooter.
The extraction genre, as much as I love it, shouldn't exist as it does. It should be a smaller loop or mechanic in another larger game loop. Like in an MMO where you extract mats that can go into building territory for a clan. Clans fight for resources. It'd have to be a full loot PvP MMO. I think Vanguard might be in a good position to take advantage of this more than any others. But it seems very meh right now.
When trying to get your friends to try out an extract game, or any game, what's the most common pushback you get?
For extraction shooters, usually gear loss and seasonal wipes was the thing that pushed people away from trying, with wipes by argument "why should I play if I'm going to lose my progress anyway?"
Can't blame them for these reasons though
The gear loss thing I understand. It made me not want to get into EFT a long time ago. But after giving it a shot, I can't go back. The excitement it adds to a fight is just too great. The wipe thing, though, that's hard to spin without it seeming like spin.
Wipes. It's the reason I couldn't get friends to try S1 and S2 of the Cycle. The moment they announce no wipes S3 I had 4 more people playing.
PC only lol. And of course the wipes.
My friends only played S1 of Cycle: Frontier with me due to gear wipes. I agree completely with your viewpoint here. Wipes are inherently indicative of something unsustainable in a game. I feel like MMO’s may have the best solutions for how extraction shooter end game balancing ought to operate. Raids, guild warfare, base building, etc.
Really crossing my fingers that Dune Awakening could fill the space left by Cycle Frontier for me. 🤞🤞🤞
I want The Cycle back,perfect game ,fun ,inventive,different.SAD!!!!!
I completely agree with what you said. Wipes are a development tool, not a gameplay crutch. They are necessary to test bugs and new features during a game's development cycle, but once that game goes into full release, the wipes should be eliminated and players should be able to enjoy everything that they've worked toward. I think the idea of necessary wipes comes from EFT where the game is in a perpetual beta state, and can use that excuse to continue using regular wipes, and since many other companies see the success of EFT and take inspiration from it, they also bring in its wipe system as well.
Look at old CoD games like the original MW series. There was a prestige system for players to reset their progress and allow them to replay the gameplay loop. But the important part is that it was optional and players who just wanted to play with all of their hard earned unlockables wouldn't be forced to lose their progress. You could incentivize players to prestige in extraction style games by offering them increased storage space or larger safe containers per each prestige up to a certain amount. That's just one way to do it. But a game that forces wipes on players just tells me that the devs don't know how to keep the game entertaining past a certain point.
I think there's a couple ways to get it done: hardcore mode, could be an option to increase the difficulty of the new wipe in various ways. The other is the rewards need to be more ego boosting. Like name banners and such. Things that get displayed for the flex of it. Ty for watching
Your comment about players playing games that their friends are playing rings so true. One of the main reasons I didn't straight up no life The Cycle or Tarkov is because my primary friend group didn't enjoy the games all that much. Once I got people to play we'd grind for quite a while. Adding easy clans and stuff would be really cool, especially the idea of having them compete and incentivize them to work together and grind for the betterment of the clan. That sounds really cool imo
Unfortunately, genres outside of MMOs have been putting less and less attention into organized play (outside of esports). It's a shame because it solves a lot player retention issues. Ty for watching
This is a well informed analysis of the subject and I appreciate this discussion. I feel the same way vigor managed to move away from wipes with a season exclusive battle pass too. I have posted this video as feedback to project l33t in hopes that they can take inspiration. This is exactly the video we need made to help developers in this genre. Thank you, I can't wait to see what you do next.
Ty so much for the kind words. I really appreciate it
Update on Steve????
I was researching Arena BO infinite and the mobile experience. They apparently have wipes but it's limited, I think a dedicated video would be very informative. One feature I thought was very innovative was they have a map called armoury with a higher loot percentage, there's a catch you have to pay in game currency and meet a minimum gear score requirement to even play it. You were speculation on how to remove gear from the economy effectively and it seems like this might be a interesting system to break down. I hope this peaks your interest, thank for the great content.
You're right. Wipes in games are just an arbitrary way to solve the problem. The only reason I stayed with Cycle as long as I did was because it was pretty easy to get to the endgame loot in comparison to Tarkov. When I have played Tarkov in the past, I usually only play for one wipe, because it's too much effort to grind everything over again so soon.
I wouldn't even mind it if it were a separate server. Kind of like a v rising server that has scheduled weekly wipes. So people know to set time aside for a grind but they know what they're signing up for.
Came back to the video from a link in Arc Raiders subreddit.
What about durability without a repair system? On a long enough timeline all gear would leave and need replaced.
You can tweak this depending what direction you want to go (does low end or high end last longer or is it all the same for example).
Durability as a mechanic I think is a given moving forward. It sucks up resources and adds costs to using items that naturally curves it's appearance in games. It still holds the same problem as lets say hiking up costs directly: only the people struggling will effected. But at least it offers the ability to attain said items. It just calls into question on your ability to maintain it.
Having no means of repair magnifies the problem for players outside the top I think. It devalues the full item in 2 ways: knowing that it has limited uses players who have a harder time will opt to spend resources on them much less run them. On the other end this really wont curve the usage for those top players. It also makes looting said items off other player players less enjoyable.
Though if the objective is strictly to reduce gear inflation it could work to push it in the right direction (even if I am skeptical about it doing that in the long term). I would just be concerned about its other effects.
@thegeck0frontier better question, is this something that is solvable with extraction games as is?
Overall I still hold to my point that extraction should be a loop, not the whole game.
@@PyroTech03 It might not be to be in its current form. Hunt has grown over the years with no wipes but its gear fear is minimal at best. The solution might very well be something like survival games have where you have individual servers that reset at their own pace.
Could you elaborate on what you mean by "loop"?
@@thegeck0frontier it's like I said essentially in a comment below here. But extraction gameplay should in my opinion probably be part of a larger game. Imagine a PvP mmo for instance where your guild can hold territory but one of the resources to maintain a shield or some harvester is something you have to drop down on or venture into a special region and find that resource.... Then extract with it and other loot. You go back to your guild base and use what you found in other parts of the game. Whether that's guild wars, dungeons, territory conquest/control....
Or a current working example at its most basic would be the Division and it's Dark Zone. Everything you get there feeds into the broader game. You don't have the gear loss aspect here but you could call The Division as the start of extraction games. Just someone thought it'd be better if you took the darkzone and made it into it's own game.
I mean I agree so much with this idea I typed up an overly complicated version of it. Posted it on the Arc Raiders reddit. Project: Warlords. I truely believe clans would fit the idea of a "larger" game and if done right solves the issues wipes are a band-aid for. So I we're on the same page on this one
Thank you for the fantastic and much needed discussion on this subject!
IMO: Regardless of what problems wipes might solve, “programming” your community to only care about your game for a few weeks every 4-6 months is a losing formula for longevity. I think the only reason Tarkov’s player base has survived as long as it has simply comes down to not having any true competition for people wanting an extraction based shooter.
100% once people have viable options games will improve. Ty for watching
Get prestige points to buy skins or inventory space and things like that, like in Marauders game. I think it is a good solution to wipes
Those are good tools, but I feel the more depth the game has, the more tools it would need to solve the eventual issues. Ty for watching
I like wipes. i dont see a better way, but early gear should be strong enough to beat the best with skill.
The extraction genre, as much as I love it, shouldn't exist as it does. It should be a smaller loop or mechanic in another larger game loop. Like in an MMO where you extract mats that can go into building territory for a clan. Clans fight for resources. It'd have to be a full loot PvP MMO.
I think Vanguard might be in a good position to take advantage of this more than any others. But it seems very meh right now.
Agreed. Vanguard is fun but very basic atm.