TMNT Cartoon had the Turtle-com, a piece of technology that would go onto becoming our own smart phones of today. So even the TMNT 87 Cartoon had Donatello invent some really amazing stuff for it's time.
This video is interesting. I may be remembering this wrong but I remember someone asking Laird what the turtles religion was in the letter section of Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles (2001 Mirage) #10 and he said they are agnostic. Dang, if any of the brothers was going to mutate other turtles and start a turtle civilization it seems like Donatello would be the one. The moral ramifications would be interesting for the brothers. They wouldn't be alone anymore, but do they have the right to curse other turtles with the fruit of knowledge?
Great video my dude, I’ve been meaning to re-read Rick McCollum’s work(and I thank you for pointing the first story is in Turtle Soup, now I just gotta dig it out). I personally love the aspects of religion/ spiritual in the Mirage books. Dan Jurgens and Micheal Zulli works are in the same range for me and stories like these are just so cool to me personally.
I've seen those videos the turtle on a tiny skateboard harassing a cat, u cant tell me there isn't an intelligent mischievous machiavellian conscious planning going on inside that tiny head
I am a big fan of this story line. Especially the extension “Twilight of the Ring”. However, I have to admit that it's primarily because of the art.🤩The story is fine and could have been a bit more narrative for my taste. The ending in particular left me wondering a bit.🤔But maybe I just didn't think hard enough about the topic.😅
in the fan graphic novel tmnt origin sequel to tmnt odyssey made the turtle god an actual character and explained the secret history with splinter being a foot mystic endowed animal with hamato yoshi spirit that prolonged his life as long as he lived and made splinter intelligent before the mutagen mimmicking hamato yoshis martial arts. you see the giant world turtle that takes away donatellos vision in vol.4 future and canonized chrell the utrom ,and the father of all reptiles exist in the archie adventures tmnt comic, and the celestial turtle in stephen king reality.
4:34 I understand what you’re saying here, and I believe it is true to an extent, but I somewhat disagree you, which is rare. Metatextually and also somewhat explicitly, I believe the turtles fall into a buddhist-animist type belief system. They are spiritual inheritors of the foot clan, and are somewhat recognized as such by members of the foot clan and also shredder. He recognizes them as descendants of Hamato Yoshi. Leonardo in particular manifests this vague spirituality very literally. I’m saying they’re naturally only slightly more lost than everyone else, but because Donatello is skeptical by nature, he makes his lack of understanding a problem. 6:24 I also thought this was shit, and IDW proving just how shallow their conception and portrayal of the turtles are. I will say I hated the idea of them being a reincarnated family more so than reincarnated humans per se. There are provisions for this in eastern religion, but I thought the family shit was the absolute laziest way to go about this. I will say that a lot of this is based on some assumptions I made from a couple of emails which Dan Berger and I exchanged when I was fresh out of high school. Having grown up on the 80s cartoon, when I discovered the mirage turtles I got a literal culture shock, that they are literal ninjas and take life. Dan explained to me the differences between systems of belief and their varying conceptions of life separate and apart from my own, which of course was Christian. It made a lot of sense to me, as it is only logical to conclude that the understanding of ritual etc which splinter had, and his later conceptions of spirituality came from his master and memories of his former life, interpreted through the lens of consciousness. Like, to me, the spirituality is already implicit. Splinter already does many religious things, and would have undoubtedly taught the turtles much of this along with teaching them to kill: they are literal ninjas, not just mutant-turtles. And I think this subtext is important to understand in rationalizing their gradual development of a conscience etc. Splinter clearly learned morality from systems of spirituality which he would not only have inherited, but also studied personally. It is already implicit, from My understanding, and so I think stories like this are entertaining, but somewhat redundant; I’m saying Peter Laird kind of already knew these things-or frames things this way instinctively-and framed his comic around this, but of course because he never addresses them directly, other writers just don’t get it. What’s more, he does sort of address this, at the end of city at war when Donatello realizes he is basically a shit ninja, and leaves with splinter to be trained, in my mind both spiritually and literally, since splinter literally a few issues before had had his own animist spiritual experience.
I think we've seen that Eastern spirituality is really only seriously practiced by Splinter. That makes sense given his background in Japan and the fact that he's a mammal (the reptile-mammal divide is explored more in Twilight of the Ring, which I'm going to cover in a video as well). For the most part, the turtles only seem to be interested in Eastern spirituality insofar as its ability to help them be better ninjas. In other words, the turtles have adopted the code of honor, code of conduct, and other elements of foot clan ninjitsu that might have had roots in spirituality, but I think it would be a mistake to assume they completely buy into the spiritual elements (similar to how a "cultural Christian" might have grown up as a Christian, actively believe in Christian morality, but question spirituality and divinity). Moreso than Splinter, the turtles always seemed several steps removed from the necessary "human" element in human-discovered spirituality like Buddhism, given that they are reptiles and they're learning it second-hand through a rat who learned it from his cage as a pet. It just makes sense that the turtles would need to discover the spiritual nature of reality for themselves. And I do think the canon Mirage Splinter would agree - there's a reason why Splinter asked April to leave when she was feeling conflicted in Shades of Gray. Despite whatever Peter Laird had in mind regarding the turtles' spirituality, which is undoubtedly different than what I explained in this video, I think Rick McCollum and Bill Anderson correctly identified a blind spot, and this story did a nice job trying to take a stab at it, which is more than Laird had ever done in practice.
@@TatoruzuI understand what you’re saying, in particular regarding going on your own personal spiritual journey and finding your own unique answers. I think however, in storytelling that’s something the quiet part, insofar as the convention is you are not supposed to get a direct *direct* answer. You are supposed to get vague hints and understand at the end of your life or something, which also conforms to eastern traditions. And I think that is the nature of Laird’s storytelling as well, which is why I hated volume 04 so much (ok not so much). Volume 04 says far far too much in my view, and therefore betrays the mirage formula. And so instead of being willfully vague, a _mirage_ , as with the first volume, it is simply long, directionless and meandering. This is why I suppose peter should have never returned to this work after so long. The result could only be what I personally consider some misunderstanding of-at best-much of the subtlely of the original work. This also aligns with some points you made in the vol04 video. Personally, I still prefer the eastern spirituality/shinto buddhism explanation. I think it wouldn’t be hard for them to identify themselves naturally with any of the numerous wise animals in eastern Proverbs, or even the tengu. As I said I don’t consider it personally a blind spot really. Even though it’s clear I dislike Laird, he is a really smart fellow who just has some issues with communication, and as good-natured as he might be, is somewhat awkward/divergent. So I think this was all somewhat deliberate/intuitive on bis part.
The reincarnation of the IDW turtles was a wasted. Because this is actually about the grudge between Yoshi and Saki, and the other one is about Saiki's past life being related to a dragon god. The Turtles? They are nothing, just because they were Yoshi's children in their previous life. Campbell's QNA time magic make this even worse. What's funnier is that in IDW TMNT Sourcebook, even Splinter already forgot his child's japanese name. I prefer that only two turtles are Splinter's children(For me, it's Donnie and Mikey) in previous life. The other two have their own previous life story that wasn't even related to the Foot Clan or Homato family. Like if Raph was a ninja from another clan, and he is actually the last member of them, then the storyline would be about Raph go to japan to find his previous life memories. As memories from the past are awakened, this will have an impact on his personalitly and will also be reminded of the knowledge and martial arts he learned in the past.
I never liked the idea of the turtles being reincarnations of humans. It upends too much of their relationships. They're not family because they're related by blood or by spirituality. They're family because Splinter chose to love them and teach them love (and violence). That feels like an emotional truth at the core of the series that gets undermined when you give him a "reason" to see them as family. I feel like it would be more meaningful and better for Splinter's development as a character if he realized that his four sons are dead and now he has to raise four new sons while struggling with the pain of getting attached again. The turtles actually being his reincarnated sons takes away from everything he lost in the first place and makes their deaths meaningless.
Now that I think about it, "Our race is upright once more" could be a refernce to the fact all true Dinosaurs descended from bipedal ancestors. With quadrupedalism being a derived trait that only later evolved in the lineages that became the large herbivores (Sauropods, Ceratopsians, Hadrosaurs EX). Also, through the years we've slowly been learning Dinosaurs were a lot smarter than we first thought. With many species being as smart as modern day animals. Heck the only reasons the giant reptiles like Dinosaurs, Pterosaurs & Marine Reptiles aren't around is because a giant space rock that struck the Earth at the end of the Mesozoic Era. If it wasn't for that, us mammals would still be tiny vermin living in the shadows... Sorry, my Dino-nerd is showing again...
![Donatello's Podcast [re-upload]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/SNbXri90wxM/mqdefault.jpg)
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Turtles can live for 500 years, so I think this can be something that Donatello has experienced.
This was an excellent video
Very deep
I Never thought a video about the fucken Teenager mutant ninja turtles and spirituality would go so deep😮
TMNT Cartoon had the Turtle-com, a piece of technology that would go onto becoming our own smart phones of today.
So even the TMNT 87 Cartoon had Donatello invent some really amazing stuff for it's time.
This video is interesting. I may be remembering this wrong but I remember someone asking Laird what the turtles religion was in the letter section of Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles (2001 Mirage) #10 and he said they are agnostic.
Dang, if any of the brothers was going to mutate other turtles and start a turtle civilization it seems like Donatello would be the one. The moral ramifications would be interesting for the brothers. They wouldn't be alone anymore, but do they have the right to curse other turtles with the fruit of knowledge?
It seems like Donatello has either contacted Oogway or the Cosmic Turtle 🐢 from Stephen King's It. 😅
Great video my dude, I’ve been meaning to re-read Rick McCollum’s work(and I thank you for pointing the first story is in Turtle Soup, now I just gotta dig it out). I personally love the aspects of religion/ spiritual in the Mirage books. Dan Jurgens and Micheal Zulli works are in the same range for me and stories like these are just so cool to me personally.
I've seen those videos the turtle on a tiny skateboard harassing a cat, u cant tell me there isn't an intelligent mischievous machiavellian conscious planning going on inside that tiny head
I am a big fan of this story line. Especially the extension “Twilight of the Ring”. However, I have to admit that it's primarily because of the art.🤩The story is fine and could have been a bit more narrative for my taste. The ending in particular left me wondering a bit.🤔But maybe I just didn't think hard enough about the topic.😅
Fire Intro
in the fan graphic novel tmnt origin sequel to tmnt odyssey made the turtle god an actual character and explained the secret history with splinter being a foot mystic endowed animal with hamato yoshi spirit that prolonged his life as long as he lived and made splinter intelligent before the mutagen mimmicking hamato yoshis martial arts. you see the giant world turtle that takes away donatellos vision in vol.4 future and canonized chrell the utrom ,and the father of all reptiles exist in the archie adventures tmnt comic, and the celestial turtle in stephen king reality.
id love to see you cover shell shock book
4:34 I understand what you’re saying here, and I believe it is true to an extent, but I somewhat disagree you, which is rare. Metatextually and also somewhat explicitly, I believe the turtles fall into a buddhist-animist type belief system. They are spiritual inheritors of the foot clan, and are somewhat recognized as such by members of the foot clan and also shredder. He recognizes them as descendants of Hamato Yoshi. Leonardo in particular manifests this vague spirituality very literally. I’m saying they’re naturally only slightly more lost than everyone else, but because Donatello is skeptical by nature, he makes his lack of understanding a problem.
6:24 I also thought this was shit, and IDW proving just how shallow their conception and portrayal of the turtles are. I will say I hated the idea of them being a reincarnated family more so than reincarnated humans per se. There are provisions for this in eastern religion, but I thought the family shit was the absolute laziest way to go about this.
I will say that a lot of this is based on some assumptions I made from a couple of emails which Dan Berger and I exchanged when I was fresh out of high school. Having grown up on the 80s cartoon, when I discovered the mirage turtles I got a literal culture shock, that they are literal ninjas and take life. Dan explained to me the differences between systems of belief and their varying conceptions of life separate and apart from my own, which of course was Christian.
It made a lot of sense to me, as it is only logical to conclude that the understanding of ritual etc which splinter had, and his later conceptions of spirituality came from his master and memories of his former life, interpreted through the lens of consciousness. Like, to me, the spirituality is already implicit. Splinter already does many religious things, and would have undoubtedly taught the turtles much of this along with teaching them to kill: they are literal ninjas, not just mutant-turtles. And I think this subtext is important to understand in rationalizing their gradual development of a conscience etc. Splinter clearly learned morality from systems of spirituality which he would not only have inherited, but also studied personally. It is already implicit, from
My understanding, and so I think stories like this are entertaining, but somewhat redundant; I’m saying Peter Laird kind of already knew these things-or frames things this way instinctively-and framed his comic around this, but of course because he never addresses them directly, other writers just don’t get it. What’s more, he does sort of address this, at the end of city at war when Donatello realizes he is basically a shit ninja, and leaves with splinter to be trained, in my mind both spiritually and literally, since splinter literally a few issues before had had his own animist spiritual experience.
I think we've seen that Eastern spirituality is really only seriously practiced by Splinter. That makes sense given his background in Japan and the fact that he's a mammal (the reptile-mammal divide is explored more in Twilight of the Ring, which I'm going to cover in a video as well).
For the most part, the turtles only seem to be interested in Eastern spirituality insofar as its ability to help them be better ninjas. In other words, the turtles have adopted the code of honor, code of conduct, and other elements of foot clan ninjitsu that might have had roots in spirituality, but I think it would be a mistake to assume they completely buy into the spiritual elements (similar to how a "cultural Christian" might have grown up as a Christian, actively believe in Christian morality, but question spirituality and divinity). Moreso than Splinter, the turtles always seemed several steps removed from the necessary "human" element in human-discovered spirituality like Buddhism, given that they are reptiles and they're learning it second-hand through a rat who learned it from his cage as a pet.
It just makes sense that the turtles would need to discover the spiritual nature of reality for themselves. And I do think the canon Mirage Splinter would agree - there's a reason why Splinter asked April to leave when she was feeling conflicted in Shades of Gray.
Despite whatever Peter Laird had in mind regarding the turtles' spirituality, which is undoubtedly different than what I explained in this video, I think Rick McCollum and Bill Anderson correctly identified a blind spot, and this story did a nice job trying to take a stab at it, which is more than Laird had ever done in practice.
@@TatoruzuI understand what you’re saying, in particular regarding going on your own personal spiritual journey and finding your own unique answers.
I think however, in storytelling that’s something the quiet part, insofar as the convention is you are not supposed to get a direct *direct* answer. You are supposed to get vague hints and understand at the end of your life or something, which also conforms to eastern traditions. And I think that is the nature of Laird’s storytelling as well, which is why I hated volume 04 so much (ok not so much). Volume 04 says far far too much in my view, and therefore betrays the mirage formula. And so instead of being willfully vague, a _mirage_ , as with the first volume, it is simply long, directionless and meandering. This is why I suppose peter should have never returned to this work after so long. The result could only be what I personally consider some misunderstanding of-at best-much of the subtlely of the original work. This also aligns with some points you made in the vol04 video.
Personally, I still prefer the eastern spirituality/shinto buddhism explanation. I think it wouldn’t be hard for them to identify themselves naturally with any of the numerous wise animals in eastern Proverbs, or even the tengu. As I said I don’t consider it personally a blind spot really. Even though it’s clear I dislike Laird, he is a really smart fellow who just has some issues with communication, and as good-natured as he might be, is somewhat awkward/divergent. So I think this was all somewhat deliberate/intuitive on bis part.
Curious, what is the song that you use for your intros? Great videos, by the way.
The reincarnation of the IDW turtles was a wasted. Because this is actually about the grudge between Yoshi and Saki, and the other one is about Saiki's past life being related to a dragon god. The Turtles? They are nothing, just because they were Yoshi's children in their previous life. Campbell's QNA time magic make this even worse. What's funnier is that in IDW TMNT Sourcebook, even Splinter already forgot his child's japanese name.
I prefer that only two turtles are Splinter's children(For me, it's Donnie and Mikey) in previous life. The other two have their own previous life story that wasn't even related to the Foot Clan or Homato family. Like if Raph was a ninja from another clan, and he is actually the last member of them, then the storyline would be about Raph go to japan to find his previous life memories. As memories from the past are awakened, this will have an impact on his personalitly and will also be reminded of the knowledge and martial arts he learned in the past.
You know what a turok son of stone tmnt crossover would be cool tho
Out of curiosity, yesterday I felt like asking you if I could make this type of video.
how Donatello has become sarcastic in recent years.
That's an interesting idea
Who will be next?
Did he reloadup a old video? Because i remenber this video being older i already seen it
I rewrote the script (it's about 2x longer) and made this new video on the topic.
I never liked the idea of the turtles being reincarnations of humans.
It upends too much of their relationships. They're not family because they're related by blood or by spirituality. They're family because Splinter chose to love them and teach them love (and violence). That feels like an emotional truth at the core of the series that gets undermined when you give him a "reason" to see them as family.
I feel like it would be more meaningful and better for Splinter's development as a character if he realized that his four sons are dead and now he has to raise four new sons while struggling with the pain of getting attached again. The turtles actually being his reincarnated sons takes away from everything he lost in the first place and makes their deaths meaningless.
Now that I think about it, "Our race is upright once more" could be a refernce to the fact all true Dinosaurs descended from bipedal ancestors. With quadrupedalism being a derived trait that only later evolved in the lineages that became the large herbivores (Sauropods, Ceratopsians, Hadrosaurs EX). Also, through the years we've slowly been learning Dinosaurs were a lot smarter than we first thought. With many species being as smart as modern day animals. Heck the only reasons the giant reptiles like Dinosaurs, Pterosaurs & Marine Reptiles aren't around is because a giant space rock that struck the Earth at the end of the Mesozoic Era.
If it wasn't for that, us mammals would still be tiny vermin living in the shadows...
Sorry, my Dino-nerd is showing again...
oh to be a tiny little vermin again, sniffing around looking for seeds to munch on, no care in the world, no taxes
FIRST🥇🏆💯🍾