Thank you both for keeping us in the rural churches informed. I'm lifelong UMC, age 61, and this is breaking my heart. My church was denied disaffiliation last year by Alabama West Florida Conference changing their rules, and we are part of 45 churches in a class action lawsuit against the conference. One of our witnesses was a pastor, he has already been relieved of his parish. I try to remember Jesus' words that there will be injustices in this world, but He has overcome the world.
It is indeed a very sad time in which the integrity of many has been exposed to amount to nothing. It was very distressing when your conference changed the policy so as to entrap churches. Be strong and faithful!
Thank you so much. I'm reassured to know Rev. Renfroe is still trying to help local UM churches worldwide who wish to leave. I looked up Good News and found a way to support that organization.
Thank you sirs. I was raised in the Methodist church. I can remember my father discussing the church after dinner. He was very concerned. That was the early 70’s. After a few decades away from church, I returned as a single father of a 7 year old. In 2018, we had a pastor who openly spoke out in favor of the progressive stance of the church. We had several weekly meetings prior to conference to have discussion on sexuality. I was taken aback by the few people who expressed concerns on the growing tide in favor of the progressive stance. I thanked God for the African church. The pastor in question, left in the middle of the night due to a health emergency, and was replaced with a woman. This pastor would not allow us to start the initial proceedings to disaffiliate. She stated there would be an opportunity after the 2024 conference. I have noticed a few non traditional folks attending church and Sunday school over the past 6 months. I discussed individually with my 🎉friends, all of which are 70s and 80s, on what they will do if the church rewrote the Book of Discipline. Most said “nothing.” The writing was on the wall. I now will attend one more Sunday. I need to say goodbye to my friends in Sunday school. The closest Global church is over a hundred miles away from me. I will make the drive Sunday after next and experience my last in person Methodist service for a while. Thanks again.
That all makes me pretty sad to hear: The pastor making a commitment that shouldn't have been made, the new pastor refusing to let the congregation talk, the isolation you currently have. Standing on principle costs us. I'm sorry that it is going to cost you this much at this time. The GMC and the WCA are providing tools for laity to plant churches. Pray about if that is something you might be able to do. Thanks for taking the time to write about your situation here.
Thankyou for your words. They are almost the same as how I have concluded my journey with the UMC. I AM 77 and have made the very difficult decision to say goodbye to my precious friendsin my Sunday School Class in the next few days. I am not sure how they will react, as I have had no discussions on the subject as far as giving my opinion. The UMC has been on this runaway train for years, and there's no turning back. I hope to find a church close by, but no luck so far. Best of luck to you. It's rough to lose friends... but Jesus comes FIRST.
I am 75 years old. My history with the Methodist Church and then the UMC goes back in my family in the 1700’s. My parents, aunts, uncles, grandparents and relatives for generations back on both sides are buried in a UMC cemetery in NC. I am heartbroken that this split has occurred. My local church has disaffiliated. The UMC where my family is buried has not. I feel like I have lost a part of me and who I am, but the only hope for redemption is Jesus, and the Bible, both Old and New Testaments, is the written word that leads me to Him. I pray for us all that we will be saved and can one day experience God face to face. Please pray for me as I walk the path toward Jesus.
Thank you for giving this summary. I'm sharing it with my fellow church family. Plain Spoken has been so helpful...Keep going because we need your work! Bless you, your wife, and children for the hours of dedication you've given. 🙏
Jeffrey, I want to thank you so much for your walking me through the General Conference. I am not a United Methodist: I am a Lutheran Pastor...without you explaining things I wouldn't have understood much of what was happening. As an orthodox and traditionalist Pastor in a wayward, progressive, "mainline" denomination (ELCA), I have witnessed first-hand the struggles between the decision to "stay" or whether to "depart" and the aftermath of what happens when the "conservative" majority departs and leaves the "progressives" to work their "tender mercy" without stumbling blocks. I served for many years as my Synod's (aka "Annual Conference") "Ecumenical Officer" and I always appreciated my United Methodist counterparts. I was involved in the joyous events around "This Holy Mystery" and the ability for United Methodists, Episcopalians, and Lutherans to commune together. I seriously debated whether to follow the GC at all...I have largely given up on watching the ELCA "Churchwide Assembly." I recognized all too well the patronizing and self-righteous attitudes of the "progressive" elements who smile as they infer that you're "stupid" and "hateful" and how they have to "put up with you." Honestly, I would have seriously thought about getting up and leaving when Bishop Bickerton said to...that was a horrendous "sermon." I pray well for you and the GMC. I also pray for my brothers and sisters who keep the Faith in the UMC. We, who continue to bear faithful witness in our wayward denominations covet your prayers as well. We need prayer all the more when the road is rough than when the road is smooth. Pax Christi! Pr. Jerry Kliner, STS
Thanks for your comments. I too was an ELCA Pastor and became a casualty of the 2009 CWA decision to ordain practicing, partnered homosexuals. That, I'm sad to say, opened the door for all kinds of debauchery. I grieve for those faithful who chose to remain. Apart from their faithful Pastors, congregations are no longer hearing the Gospel. The ELCA has become a cesspool of anti-Gospel, anti-Christian propaganda. My prayers are with you.
@@jamesbarksdale978 I think it's helpful to remember that "The ELCA" and "The UMC" are made up of smaller units like local congregations and parishes. "The ELCA" has indeed been (from before 2009) a cesspool (it had to be a cesspool to get where it is at) but there are still local congregations that keep the Faith. I think the MAJOR difference between the two situations is that in the ELCA, they still cannot compel or otherwise "force" a congregation to "take" a certain Pastor. The UMC can and will. So, at least for the moment, there are still faithful congregation that support a faithful Pastor...though it's getting more difficult to find them every day. But it's clear what will happen "next" in the UMC..."Progressive" Bishops will, if not immediately then in a few years, will begin shuffling "Progressive" clergy into their "trouble spots." It's inevitable. Thanks for your continued prayers!
I'm glad you felt I was able to be of help in those couple of weeks. I was over my head and intimidated at what I was trying to do, but it was a good experience. It was what I have wanted someone else to do for a couple of decades. Thanks for telling about your perspective from the ELCA. Of course, your tribe is very familiar with the same forces we contended with in the UMC. It is amazing how an organization filled with any wonderful people can be dismantled by a relatively few bad actors. If an institution cannot protect itself, then it has a short lifespan. God bless your ministry and your life in him. I'm glad to have had you along for this segment of the journey.
Good stuff. Our side needs to be reminded that the same forces that took over the UMC are not going to stop their quest for the levers of power across our institutions, media, and governing bodies. And that must proclaim God's truth in love into our culture.
Mr. Rickman and Mr. Renfroe, thank you so much having this conversation and helping others across the country understand what is happening within the UMC. I relocated to the extremely progressive Seattle Area from Central Florida after having fallen away from my faith for many years. After discovering just how off-kilter the world is, I went back to the UMC in 2022. I was appalled at what I found and began reading my Bible fully for the first time in my life. It's quite saddening to see how far man is falling. I have so much hope that there are still folks who desire to know God and to live by His word! I pray for all of us.
I'm so glad God called you back into the fold. I'm so sorry that the UMC is no longer a place where one can find biblical instruction, save for some exceptional churches that are trapped. Sounds like you didn't find one of them. I'm glad you had the discernment to know that what was being offered was something other than the gospel. Christ blesses those who hunger and thirst for righteousness. Take heart!
Our pastor and congregation left UMC after he went through so many difficulties even from longtime colleagues. We have joined the Global Methodist Community. No regrets.
Thank you for the clarity in this video discussion. I’m part of 2 UMC’s (MA and FL) that didn’t make moves to disaffiliate. The one is FL even has a k-12 school. I think they will regret it. I’m figuring out my next move now. I cannot be a part of a church with practices that go against clear Biblical principles.
I went to a UMC college and a year at a UMC seminary. I have friends who are still Pastors in the UMC nearing retirement. It's very sad to see how this once prominent denomination has imploded. I was later a Pastor in the ELCA when it made it's fateful decision in 2009 to abrogate the authority of Scripture replacing it with themselves. It's been a train wreck ever since. My prayers are with you and the new GMC. May the Lord bless you and keep you.
My prayer is for "Good News" to change its mission from holding the UMC accountable to Biblical Truth, to helping the GMC spread the Gospel to a lost and dying world. Someday, and soon, I pray, we will need to come off our pedestal and carry the Cross to the ends of the earth, to grow from being navel gazers to triumphant saints.
I hope you got the sense from Rob that he has the same earnest passion to spread the gospel. Of course, the mission you're talking about here is very different from the mission that Good News has had. That is why they will be concluding their business in the coming months. There will be others who rise to take their place in time. In the meantime, the effort to spread scriptural holiness across the land is the responsibility of all true believers. It is time we stop looking to others to do what we ourselves should be doing.
Around 48:00 - "You haven't come up with a plan on how to reach the lost" - "lost" is a foreign concept to a progressive. They want no mention that "sin by the commandment might become exceedingly sinful" - Roman 7:13. Self-actualization is salvation to a progressive. Around 50:00 - "We're not going to be there to be the villian" - exactly right! But the role of villian is necessary in the progressive mind. With conservatives gone, they will now be looking each other in the eyes and wondering "does my intersectionaly trump yours? Am I more oppressed than thou?"
" ... How long will you halt between two opinions? If YHWH be Alahim, follow Him: but if Baal, then follow him. And the people answered him not a word." 1Kings 18:21b YHWH: HE IS KING! AMEN Thank you, brothers Rickman and Renfoe, for this Stand for Righteousness, our KING Yahshua haMashiach. He sees, and He is returning, soon!
There is much loathing coming at those of us who are traditional Christians that is coming at us from inside our families that has infected our children and spouses.
Jeffrey and Rob, I am so grateful for your voices and your fearless stand for truth. You both have been invaluable to me as a local pastor leading a small church into (and thank God through ) disaffiliation along with the legal battle we were forced into by Sue Haupert Johnson in North Georgia. I cannot thank you enough.
Hi neighbor, our congregation in North Georgia conference was not even allowed to discuss disaffiliation so a group of us left and started a new GMC plant, Sawnee Ridge Church, and are so glad to start a new thing and stand for God's truth!
The GMC REALLY NEEDS TO PLEASE PUT OUT ON A CHANNEL FOR ALL OF US WHO WAMT TO SEE A LIST OF GMC 'S AND THEIR LOCATIONS. I KNOWI SURE WOULD APPRECIATE IT , SO I CAN ATTEND. THANKYOU. ( I google to ask about GMC LOCATIONS , WITH NO LUCK. ) PLEASE HELP.
Hello Jeff - just a note regarding the fallout of what happened in Charlotte as it concerns those outside of the UMC. For years we have supported the Gideons, and every year they come to present their work in our adult Sunday School hour and briefly in morning worship. On occasion these men would be connected to the UMC. After this Conference, our church will no longer permit any speaker from the UMC to speak in our church, regardless of their outside connections. All ties have been cut, and we are hoping that others in the Evangelical world will recognize these changes and act accordingly.
How terrible. The Gideons organization gives EVERY PENNY DONATED to the buying of Holy Bibles in so many different languages! To be that petty is sad and cringeworthy 🥲
Jeff Dollar, I'm generally a fan of yours, but I think you are on the wrong path here. Do you support the mission of the Gideons? Is someone doing work for the Gideons supporting a good cause? Admonish them when they teach sin as acceptable, but pat them on the back when they work to spread the written word of God.
But, but... "Adam Hamilton, senior pastor of the United Methodist Church of the Resurrection in the Kansas City area" (as he always says) said nothing was wrong and only 4,500 churches would leave before turning off comments on all of his response videos. 🤔
I find it interesting that Good News is phasing out over time. I was recently approached by someone who is staying in the UMC for now and asked if organizations like Good News and the WCA are going to stay active and continue to help churches in the UMC that choose to stay. I told the person groups like Good News and the WCA are not in anyway welcome in what is the UMC now. While in the near future, they have a place, in the long term, it would not make sense to not keep them active with the GMC launched and convened. The person said it would be a shame not to have traditional groups advocating for the UMC moving forward because of the need for traditionalists in the UMC. I don't know how a Biblically rooted and grounded Wesleyan could remain. Good work in this interview. Thank you.
You know the sign for me that I found concerning is when I saw a UMCH Global Ministries posting showing a presentation on “White Fragility” presented by Robin DiAngelo herself. Little did I know. We cannot give up in prayer though. God is able to do the impossible!
Many pastors who are no longer willing to be a part of the UMC as it now stands have transferred their membership to another denomination (including the GMC). Is there a point where Rob Renfro will no longer claim the UMC as his denomination and transfer his membership to another denomination for the sake of his integrity and spoken beliefs? Will his message be heard with different ears and hearts if he does change denominations? In the same vein, does continuing to utilize the UMC tag bring Rob's commitment into question?
I appreciate this podcast. Have you done this from the perspective of where the GMC is today (in it's infancy) and the GMC from an organizational perspective in a few years?
I'm not sure I know what you mean. I have been really reluctant to speak with much certainty about what the GMC will be. I have a number of hopes, but I have almost no expectations. So many things are going on that I do not have access to and cannot quantify...
John Wesley-founder of the Methodist Church-on Romans 1:27: “And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.” Wesley: “Receiving the just recompense of their error - Their idolatry being punished with that unnatural lust, which was as horrible a dishonour to the body, as their idolatry was to God.” (Notes on the New Testament) UTR
My UMC pastor BIL's church decided to vote on leaving. To leave 66% had to agree. Sixty percent voted to leave, so the vote to leave failed. Next Sunday 60% were gone. My BIL retired is very deep pain. In a email to me explaining what is going on in the UMC, he inserted the word 'sarcasm" behind descriptions of what UMC has done, several times. My BIL has never used sarcasm in the 50 years I have known him.
Yeah dealing with a corrupt and warped institution has a way of corrupting and warping individuals who try to engage it. It is really sad to see. Changing institutions is really, really hard. So hard that it is much easier to just pay money to get away from the institution and try to start over somewhere else...
I am neither a Methodist nor the son of a Methodist...but I am a follow of Jesus. I heard the rumblings about the UMC and was poking around YT to find out what was happening. Thank you for your interview and information. I will continue to follow what is going on as it is a sign of what could be happening to other Denominations.
How can they be "an annointed powerful instrument of God" when they no longer follow His teaching? I understand theorizing about what you might've said .. but they've gone apostate. As RR said when talking with Andy Miller, they are now of another faith. They are no longer Christian... literally the word Christian means follower of Christ. Obviously this means the denomination not every attendee. However the folks in the pews are now a part of a heretical church. Many have been kept in the dark ... when they realize, they will not be able to support with their time and treasure.
Hello. Heidi Cain here, an elder, clergy, in the UMC. I serve as a hospital chaplain. Respectfully the church is declining in all denominations in the US. The UMC’s decline is part of a trend for all churches in the US. According to Gallup's data, this decline in church attendance among Christians speaks to a wider pattern across religion in the U.S. generally. Where an average of 42 percent of U.S. adults attended religious services every week or nearly every week 20 years ago, now this figure is just 30 percent.
So you would credit the sharp recent decline in the denomination to something other than the massive political shift and treatment of traditionalists within the last 5-10 years?
First, people of course will no longer be interested in "church" if they find nothing different about it. If they encounter all the same things in church as they do the world, why go? There was a time in this country where only 10% of the population went to church. This was the later part of the 18th century. The established churches were just country clubs for the elite, while the common folk hung out in the pubs, spittin and cussin. BUT then you had the great revivals (Great Awakenings). At that time, Wesley, and Whitefield came along and thundered thru the country, at the same time the Separate Baptists like Shubal Stearns came on the scene. In 10 years Stearns' Association at Sandy Creek established over 100 churches. Sandy Creek Baptist Church had 800 members in the 1700's in the middle of the mountain wilderness. ALSO, not all churches are declining. The Assemblies of God grew by 15 percent in the last 10 yrs, Non denom churches grew by 23%, and Baptists grew by 12%. (dont confuse being affiliated with the SBC as being the only way to be Baptist) I believe the Cumberland Presbyterians also have grown. House churches are up by a whopping 85%. I believe the PCA is still trending upwards, and the Anglican Church in America is still trending upwards. I do agree that society is less friendly to "religion", but they are still open to genuine faith, if they see it lived out. The downfall of the UMC is because they became like the world. They went the way of the Episcopal Church, and started adopting more liturgical worship where everything in every church was exactly the same, that way nobody would notice whats going on. When the only thing that binds you together, is "worship style" you have become obsolete. I was shocked when I went to Duke University Chapel, which I thought was a Methodist institution. Bowing to the altar, and all the fancy robes, I may as well have been in an Episcopal church. The only thing missing was incense. When pastors no longer have to pray, and seek God's direction for a Sunday service, but only have to "do what the rule book says" he has become lazy. Now he only has to worry about a 10 minute sermonette which rarely has anything to do with the Bible. When you have churches who have abandoned Scripture and become universalists, teaching everyone is gonna make it to God using "different paths", what incentive is there to invite anyone to church? We're all gonna be saved anyways right?
There was a time in the USA where only 10% attended church. This was the late 18th century. The came Wesley, Whitefield, and the Separate Baptists under Shubal Stearns. The Sandy Creek Baptist Chruch had over 800 members in 1770 in the middle of the mountains. They founded over 100 churches in 10 years Also, why would anyone want to go to church when its no different than the world? When I visited Duke U chapel, I thought I was in an Episcopal church, all the bowing, genuflecting, fancy robes etc. The UMC has become more and more liturgical. When everything is the same outwardly, it covers up the ugliness underneath. I might add that the Assemblies of God grew by 15% over the last 10 yrs, non denomation churches grew by 23%, Baptists by 12 % (no the SBC is not the only way to be Baptist) and house churches grew a whopping 85%. I believe the PCA is still trending upwards, as well as the ACNA. If you preach the Scriptures they will come believe it or not. But when you start teaching that we are all gonna make it to God no matter what path we choose, God will depart and the people will follow
I think the decline has happened for many reasons. All I’m saying is look at the bigger picture… beyond the world of conservatives/moderates/liberals (although I do thinking the infighting has not helped anyone’s message)… what I see??? People are soooo tired of church… the hypocrisy, the judgment, the lack of integrity, shoving things down their throats… and that’s happening no matter what camp you are in. I think Americans will respond to Jesus, not religion… and I think that’s where we can find common ground. There is always hope when you put Jesus out there for people to meet.
Jeff, does the general conference vote removing 2553 act as controlling authority to all annual conferences, or could an annual conference still provide some disaffilation-type procedure if they so desired? At least one annual conference has a plan in place extending thru 12/31/2024, but I anticipate this being taken away and blaming the general conference for its removal. Thanks
Annual conferences can still potentially use ¶2549 to close churches and sell them back to their people. As was covered in my recent conversation with Scott Field, it is suspected that the new Judicial Council could close this option...
There is no way to know that yet. Bishops and conference staff aren't going to say. I will, however, be interviewing Scott Field, the primary leader of the Wesleyan Covenant Association, on Monday. I'll try to quantify with him how many local churches are currently trapped in the UMC and seeking a way out.
They are so deeply deceived they are now living under a great delusion to which there is no coming out of I believe Romans 1:18-32 is being experienced here
The Bible says not to ordain women in the church. Jesus said that remember Lot’s wife. He destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah. The church has to follow the scriptures whether we like it or not.
In addition to the doctrinal disconnect, I’m really appalled by the amount of nasty “politics” that apparently went on. That in itself speaks volumes about the state of the UMC.
Post mortem? Trust me, The United Methodist Church is definitely not dead! The UMC I serve is growing, adding mission and ministry and reaching out to people with the love of God!
To (near) quote Mariah Carey, "why you so obsessed with (the UMC) me?" You left, you're in the GMC church. So do your GMC thing. You clearly believe you are infallibly on the "right" side. Cool. You do you. The UMC will do themselves. Just find it a bit odd you spend so much time obsessing about an institution and church that you have left.
I find it strange that you, a stranger, think I care what you find odd. Perhaps you should follow your own advice and concern yourself with your own matters? If you look at the segment I published the day after this one, you'll see I'm concerning myself with the GMC, too. This song isn't about you. It's about Jesus first and then the Methodist heritage second. I'll continue to speak about whatever matches these priorities.
In all fairness, we are both perfect strangers. In fact, the nature of web publishing is exactly this...stranger commentary and discussion. It's fine, you don't have to answer the question about being so obsessed with a denomination you left.
@@timmychem The premise of your question is disingenuous. It's like the question "When did you stop beating your wife?" I'm not obsessed with the UMC. Obsession conveys something inordinate or unbalanced. It is completely normal and natural for people to look backwards in order to figure out how they want to chart a course forwards. Not to do so is irresponsible and stupid.
I always mourn a death and must marinate, for a time, in my misery(grief). Perhaps some others feel the same. I did observe the absolute disrespect and condescention by many at the podium during General Conference. A real "rub your nose in it" with no hint of Christian empathy or compassion. Perhaps that lack is what I am grieving over the most.
You know what denominations are more irrelevant than the post- division ELCA, PCUSA, and the Episcopalians? The NALC, PCA, and the ACNA. All the breakaway denominations from mainlines are virtually invisible culturally and numerically. After the burst of energy which came after leaving dissipated, these denominations had no resources, no direction, and no ability to impact much of anything. And unlike the GMC, they had many of their parent denomination’s large churches proudly stand in their number. Big former UMC’s who left, as a whole, want nothing to do with the GMC because they know it’ll put them outside the mainstream of anyone under 40 years old. Standing alone they can be quiet bigots who can modify their position as the culture moved, while with the GMC they’re stuck being members with the 21st Century version of the ME South. I swear someday Harvard MBA students will study how evangelicals in the UMC from 2012 to 2024 perpetuated their own cataclysmic demise. Stole defeat from the jaws of victory. I wouldn’t trust your leaders with carrying a sharp knife, let alone administratively directing an organization. You held all the cards snd somehow had to leave a bunch of your own chips at the table to leave. Incompetence of the highest order. Ah but alas we part ways. Farewell Rob Renfroe. Farewell GMC. Farewell Good News. Farewell IRD. Farewell WCA.
Yawn. Back in my youth in the ´50s and ´60s, there was a hullaballoo about the penetration of the KGB into the National Council of Churches. The United Methodist Church and the Episcopal Church were two that seemed to manifest "zig-zag parallelism" with the Soviet Union and Communist subversion in general. And then... the United Methodist Church changed its logo to what it is today, which instantly seemed to me to not be a cross and a stylized red flame, but a cross and a red flag, similar to that of the USSR and Red China. But since the rest of the decaying institutions in the US have gone woke, the United Methodist Church is merely trying to desperately keep its market share. Yet another indicator of the decomposition of "western" society.
Thank you both for keeping us in the rural churches informed. I'm lifelong UMC, age 61, and this is breaking my heart. My church was denied disaffiliation last year by Alabama West Florida Conference changing their rules, and we are part of 45 churches in a class action lawsuit against the conference. One of our witnesses was a pastor, he has already been relieved of his parish. I try to remember Jesus' words that there will be injustices in this world, but He has overcome the world.
It is indeed a very sad time in which the integrity of many has been exposed to amount to nothing. It was very distressing when your conference changed the policy so as to entrap churches. Be strong and faithful!
Thank you for being a part of the lawsuit.
Praying for Rob and his associates. They have been put through so much drama and trauma in their effort to help others discern the truth. 🙏✝️🕊️
Thank you so much. I'm reassured to know Rev. Renfroe is still trying to help local UM churches worldwide who wish to leave. I looked up Good News and found a way to support that organization.
Thank you sirs. I was raised in the Methodist church. I can remember my father discussing the church after dinner. He was very concerned. That was the early 70’s. After a few decades away from church, I returned as a single father of a 7 year old. In 2018, we had a pastor who openly spoke out in favor of the progressive stance of the church. We had several weekly meetings prior to conference to have discussion on sexuality. I was taken aback by the few people who expressed concerns on the growing tide in favor of the progressive stance. I thanked God for the African church. The pastor in question, left in the middle of the night due to a health emergency, and was replaced with a woman. This pastor would not allow us to start the initial proceedings to disaffiliate. She stated there would be an opportunity after the 2024 conference. I have noticed a few non traditional folks attending church and Sunday school over the past 6 months. I discussed individually with my 🎉friends, all of which are 70s and 80s, on what they will do if the church rewrote the Book of Discipline. Most said “nothing.” The writing was on the wall. I now will attend one more Sunday. I need to say goodbye to my friends in Sunday school. The closest Global church is over a hundred miles away from me. I will make the drive Sunday after next and experience my last in person Methodist service for a while. Thanks again.
Very sad. 🙏🙏
That all makes me pretty sad to hear: The pastor making a commitment that shouldn't have been made, the new pastor refusing to let the congregation talk, the isolation you currently have. Standing on principle costs us. I'm sorry that it is going to cost you this much at this time. The GMC and the WCA are providing tools for laity to plant churches. Pray about if that is something you might be able to do. Thanks for taking the time to write about your situation here.
Thankyou for your words. They are almost the same as how I have concluded my journey with the UMC. I AM 77 and have made the very difficult decision to say goodbye to my precious friendsin my Sunday School Class in the next few days. I am not sure how they will react, as I have had no discussions on the subject as far as giving my opinion. The UMC has been on this runaway train for years, and there's no turning back. I hope to find a church close by, but no luck so far. Best of luck to you. It's rough to lose friends... but Jesus comes FIRST.
That so sad. Praying for you GODs peace as you process this pain. 🙏
I am 75 years old. My history with the Methodist Church and then the UMC goes back in my family in the 1700’s. My parents, aunts, uncles, grandparents and relatives for generations back on both sides are buried in a UMC cemetery in NC. I am heartbroken that this split has occurred. My local church has disaffiliated. The UMC where my family is buried has not. I feel like I have lost a part of me and who I am, but the only hope for redemption is Jesus, and the Bible, both Old and New Testaments, is the written word that leads me to Him. I pray for us all that we will be saved and can one day experience God face to face. Please pray for me as I walk the path toward Jesus.
I pray for the faithful in the UMC, which includes Rob Renfroe, Tom Lambrecht, and others. May God bless.
Thank you for giving this summary. I'm sharing it with my fellow church family. Plain Spoken has been so helpful...Keep going because we need your work! Bless you, your wife, and children for the hours of dedication you've given. 🙏
Jeffrey, I want to thank you so much for your walking me through the General Conference. I am not a United Methodist: I am a Lutheran Pastor...without you explaining things I wouldn't have understood much of what was happening. As an orthodox and traditionalist Pastor in a wayward, progressive, "mainline" denomination (ELCA), I have witnessed first-hand the struggles between the decision to "stay" or whether to "depart" and the aftermath of what happens when the "conservative" majority departs and leaves the "progressives" to work their "tender mercy" without stumbling blocks.
I served for many years as my Synod's (aka "Annual Conference") "Ecumenical Officer" and I always appreciated my United Methodist counterparts. I was involved in the joyous events around "This Holy Mystery" and the ability for United Methodists, Episcopalians, and Lutherans to commune together. I seriously debated whether to follow the GC at all...I have largely given up on watching the ELCA "Churchwide Assembly." I recognized all too well the patronizing and self-righteous attitudes of the "progressive" elements who smile as they infer that you're "stupid" and "hateful" and how they have to "put up with you." Honestly, I would have seriously thought about getting up and leaving when Bishop Bickerton said to...that was a horrendous "sermon."
I pray well for you and the GMC. I also pray for my brothers and sisters who keep the Faith in the UMC. We, who continue to bear faithful witness in our wayward denominations covet your prayers as well. We need prayer all the more when the road is rough than when the road is smooth.
Pax Christi!
Pr. Jerry Kliner, STS
Appreciate your prayers for the denominational meltdowns that are happening before our eyes Jerry!
Thank you for hanging in there, pastor.
Thanks for your comments. I too was an ELCA Pastor and became a casualty of the 2009 CWA decision to ordain practicing, partnered homosexuals.
That, I'm sad to say, opened the door for all kinds of debauchery.
I grieve for those faithful who chose to remain. Apart from their faithful Pastors, congregations are no longer hearing the Gospel.
The ELCA has become a cesspool of anti-Gospel, anti-Christian propaganda.
My prayers are with you.
@@jamesbarksdale978 I think it's helpful to remember that "The ELCA" and "The UMC" are made up of smaller units like local congregations and parishes. "The ELCA" has indeed been (from before 2009) a cesspool (it had to be a cesspool to get where it is at) but there are still local congregations that keep the Faith.
I think the MAJOR difference between the two situations is that in the ELCA, they still cannot compel or otherwise "force" a congregation to "take" a certain Pastor. The UMC can and will. So, at least for the moment, there are still faithful congregation that support a faithful Pastor...though it's getting more difficult to find them every day. But it's clear what will happen "next" in the UMC..."Progressive" Bishops will, if not immediately then in a few years, will begin shuffling "Progressive" clergy into their "trouble spots." It's inevitable.
Thanks for your continued prayers!
I'm glad you felt I was able to be of help in those couple of weeks. I was over my head and intimidated at what I was trying to do, but it was a good experience. It was what I have wanted someone else to do for a couple of decades.
Thanks for telling about your perspective from the ELCA. Of course, your tribe is very familiar with the same forces we contended with in the UMC. It is amazing how an organization filled with any wonderful people can be dismantled by a relatively few bad actors. If an institution cannot protect itself, then it has a short lifespan.
God bless your ministry and your life in him. I'm glad to have had you along for this segment of the journey.
Good stuff. Our side needs to be reminded that the same forces that took over the UMC are not going to stop their quest for the levers of power across our institutions, media, and governing bodies. And that must proclaim God's truth in love into our culture.
It’s called the Gramcian “long March through the institutions. Look it up.
Mr. Rickman and Mr. Renfroe, thank you so much having this conversation and helping others across the country understand what is happening within the UMC. I relocated to the extremely progressive Seattle Area from Central Florida after having fallen away from my faith for many years. After discovering just how off-kilter the world is, I went back to the UMC in 2022. I was appalled at what I found and began reading my Bible fully for the first time in my life. It's quite saddening to see how far man is falling. I have so much hope that there are still folks who desire to know God and to live by His word! I pray for all of us.
I'm so glad God called you back into the fold. I'm so sorry that the UMC is no longer a place where one can find biblical instruction, save for some exceptional churches that are trapped. Sounds like you didn't find one of them. I'm glad you had the discernment to know that what was being offered was something other than the gospel. Christ blesses those who hunger and thirst for righteousness. Take heart!
TH-cam channel is mynsalblog ❤✝️📖🙏 Christinourhome.blogspot.com God loves you . . . Pass it on
Our pastor and congregation left UMC after he went through so many difficulties even from longtime colleagues. We have joined the Global Methodist Community. No regrets.
I had to watch this again, what a year!
Rob was so right when saying who we were dealing with
Thank you for the clarity in this video discussion. I’m part of 2 UMC’s (MA and FL) that didn’t make moves to disaffiliate. The one is FL even has a k-12 school. I think they will regret it. I’m figuring out my next move now. I cannot be a part of a church with practices that go against clear Biblical principles.
I am glad Jesus didn’t say ‘this cross is too tough a job I am not going to do it.’ Thank you both for your time and insight.
Rob is extremely articulate.
I went to a UMC college and a year at a UMC seminary. I have friends who are still Pastors in the UMC nearing retirement. It's very sad to see how this once prominent denomination has imploded.
I was later a Pastor in the ELCA when it made it's fateful decision in 2009 to abrogate the authority of Scripture replacing it with themselves. It's been a train wreck ever since.
My prayers are with you and the new GMC. May the Lord bless you and keep you.
Excellent interview! Thank you!
My prayer is for "Good News" to change its mission from holding the UMC accountable to Biblical Truth, to helping the GMC spread the Gospel to a lost and dying world. Someday, and soon, I pray, we will need to come off our pedestal and carry the Cross to the ends of the earth, to grow from being navel gazers to triumphant saints.
I hope you got the sense from Rob that he has the same earnest passion to spread the gospel. Of course, the mission you're talking about here is very different from the mission that Good News has had. That is why they will be concluding their business in the coming months. There will be others who rise to take their place in time. In the meantime, the effort to spread scriptural holiness across the land is the responsibility of all true believers. It is time we stop looking to others to do what we ourselves should be doing.
Around 48:00 - "You haven't come up with a plan on how to reach the lost" - "lost" is a foreign concept to a progressive. They want no mention that "sin by the commandment might become exceedingly sinful" - Roman 7:13. Self-actualization is salvation to a progressive.
Around 50:00 - "We're not going to be there to be the villian" - exactly right! But the role of villian is necessary in the progressive mind. With conservatives gone, they will now be looking each other in the eyes and wondering "does my intersectionaly trump yours? Am I more oppressed than thou?"
" ... How long will you halt between two opinions? If YHWH be Alahim, follow Him: but if Baal, then follow him. And the people answered him not a word." 1Kings 18:21b
YHWH: HE IS KING! AMEN
Thank you, brothers Rickman and Renfoe, for this Stand for Righteousness, our KING Yahshua haMashiach. He sees, and He is returning, soon!
There is much loathing coming at those of us who are traditional Christians that is coming at us from inside our families that has infected our children and spouses.
Praying for you 🙏
Jeffrey and Rob, I am so grateful for your voices and your fearless stand for truth. You both have been invaluable to me as a local pastor leading a small church into (and thank God through ) disaffiliation along with the legal battle we were forced into by Sue Haupert Johnson in North Georgia. I cannot thank you enough.
Very glad to have been of some benefit to you, brother. God bless your ministry!
Hi neighbor, our congregation in North Georgia conference was not even allowed to discuss disaffiliation so a group of us left and started a new GMC plant, Sawnee Ridge Church, and are so glad to start a new thing and stand for God's truth!
The GMC REALLY NEEDS TO PLEASE PUT OUT ON A CHANNEL FOR ALL OF US WHO WAMT TO SEE A LIST OF GMC 'S AND THEIR LOCATIONS. I KNOWI SURE WOULD APPRECIATE IT , SO I CAN ATTEND. THANKYOU. ( I google to ask about GMC LOCATIONS , WITH NO LUCK. ) PLEASE HELP.
Hello Jeff - just a note regarding the fallout of what happened in Charlotte as it concerns those outside of the UMC. For years we have supported the Gideons, and every year they come to present their work in our adult Sunday School hour and briefly in morning worship. On occasion these men would be connected to the UMC. After this Conference, our church will no longer permit any speaker from the UMC to speak in our church, regardless of their outside connections. All ties have been cut, and we are hoping that others in the Evangelical world will recognize these changes and act accordingly.
Oh wow, yeah, that makes a statement...
Does that apply to those of us who have retired from the UMC and still hold credentials?
How terrible. The Gideons organization gives EVERY PENNY DONATED to the buying of Holy Bibles in so many different languages! To be that petty is sad and cringeworthy 🥲
Jeff Dollar, I'm generally a fan of yours, but I think you are on the wrong path here. Do you support the mission of the Gideons? Is someone doing work for the Gideons supporting a good cause? Admonish them when they teach sin as acceptable, but pat them on the back when they work to spread the written word of God.
But, but... "Adam Hamilton, senior pastor of the United Methodist Church of the Resurrection in the Kansas City area" (as he always says) said nothing was wrong and only 4,500 churches would leave before turning off comments on all of his response videos. 🤔
I expected the liberals to have the votes to go their way. What I didn't expect was the voting results with such wide margins.
I find it interesting that Good News is phasing out over time. I was recently approached by someone who is staying in the UMC for now and asked if organizations like Good News and the WCA are going to stay active and continue to help churches in the UMC that choose to stay. I told the person groups like Good News and the WCA are not in anyway welcome in what is the UMC now. While in the near future, they have a place, in the long term, it would not make sense to not keep them active with the GMC launched and convened. The person said it would be a shame not to have traditional groups advocating for the UMC moving forward because of the need for traditionalists in the UMC. I don't know how a Biblically rooted and grounded Wesleyan could remain. Good work in this interview. Thank you.
How could it be that God's opinion in a church is only ""tolerated""?
Thank you. Bill and Leslie Parks, Edmond OK
You know the sign for me that I found concerning is when I saw a UMCH Global Ministries posting showing a presentation on “White Fragility” presented by Robin DiAngelo herself. Little did I know. We cannot give up in prayer though. God is able to do the impossible!
When DiAngelo is a part of the picture, get out of whatever room you are in. They have lost their minds.
Many pastors who are no longer willing to be a part of the UMC as it now stands have transferred their membership to another denomination (including the GMC). Is there a point where Rob Renfro will no longer claim the UMC as his denomination and transfer his membership to another denomination for the sake of his integrity and spoken beliefs? Will his message be heard with different ears and hearts if he does change denominations? In the same vein, does continuing to utilize the UMC tag bring Rob's commitment into question?
I appreciate this podcast. Have you done this from the perspective of where the GMC is today (in it's infancy) and the GMC from an organizational perspective in a few years?
I'm not sure I know what you mean. I have been really reluctant to speak with much certainty about what the GMC will be. I have a number of hopes, but I have almost no expectations. So many things are going on that I do not have access to and cannot quantify...
John Wesley-founder of the Methodist Church-on Romans 1:27:
“And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.”
Wesley:
“Receiving the just recompense of their error - Their idolatry being punished with that unnatural lust, which was as horrible a dishonour to the body, as their idolatry was to God.” (Notes on the New Testament) UTR
Thank God for the Good News and WCA! Thank the Lord Jesus Christ for His precious blood shed for our sins!
and on the board.. Oliveto
My UMC pastor BIL's church decided to vote on leaving. To leave 66% had to agree. Sixty percent voted to leave, so the vote to leave failed. Next Sunday 60% were gone. My BIL retired is very deep pain. In a email to me explaining what is going on in the UMC, he inserted the word 'sarcasm" behind descriptions of what UMC has done, several times. My BIL has never used sarcasm in the 50 years I have known him.
Yeah dealing with a corrupt and warped institution has a way of corrupting and warping individuals who try to engage it. It is really sad to see. Changing institutions is really, really hard. So hard that it is much easier to just pay money to get away from the institution and try to start over somewhere else...
Jesus paid it all. That is how we reach the world. Beneath the cross of Jesus, I fain would take my stand.
note to the leadership of the united methodist church.."judge not, lest ye be judged."
@zorro96100. That goes both ways… Global Methodists need to do the same.
I am neither a Methodist nor the son of a Methodist...but I am a follow of Jesus. I heard the rumblings about the UMC and was poking around YT to find out what was happening. Thank you for your interview and information. I will continue to follow what is going on as it is a sign of what could be happening to other Denominations.
Yup. The exact same forces are at play everywhere. The Methodists aren't exceptional.
Rob is the reason most of the disaffiliation occurred prior to to the language changes in the book of discipline.
How can they be "an annointed powerful instrument of God" when they no longer follow His teaching? I understand theorizing about what you might've said .. but they've gone apostate. As RR said when talking with Andy Miller, they are now of another faith. They are no longer Christian... literally the word Christian means follower of Christ. Obviously this means the denomination not every attendee. However the folks in the pews are now a part of a heretical church. Many have been kept in the dark ... when they realize, they will not be able to support with their time and treasure.
Post-mortem is an apt title.
Hello. Heidi Cain here, an elder, clergy, in the UMC. I serve as a hospital chaplain.
Respectfully the church is declining in all denominations in the US. The UMC’s decline is part of a trend for all churches in the US.
According to Gallup's data, this decline in church attendance among Christians speaks to a wider pattern across religion in the U.S. generally. Where an average of 42 percent of U.S. adults attended religious services every week or nearly every week 20 years ago, now this figure is just 30 percent.
So you would credit the sharp recent decline in the denomination to something other than the massive political shift and treatment of traditionalists within the last 5-10 years?
First, people of course will no longer be interested in "church" if they find nothing different about it. If they encounter all the same things in church as they do the world, why go? There was a time in this country where only 10% of the population went to church. This was the later part of the 18th century. The established churches were just country clubs for the elite, while the common folk hung out in the pubs, spittin and cussin. BUT then you had the great revivals (Great Awakenings). At that time, Wesley, and Whitefield came along and thundered thru the country, at the same time the Separate Baptists like Shubal Stearns came on the scene. In 10 years Stearns' Association at Sandy Creek established over 100 churches. Sandy Creek Baptist Church had 800 members in the 1700's in the middle of the mountain wilderness.
ALSO, not all churches are declining. The Assemblies of God grew by 15 percent in the last 10 yrs, Non denom churches grew by 23%, and Baptists grew by 12%. (dont confuse being affiliated with the SBC as being the only way to be Baptist) I believe the Cumberland Presbyterians also have grown. House churches are up by a whopping 85%. I believe the PCA is still trending upwards, and the Anglican Church in America is still trending upwards.
I do agree that society is less friendly to "religion", but they are still open to genuine faith, if they see it lived out.
The downfall of the UMC is because they became like the world. They went the way of the Episcopal Church, and started adopting more liturgical worship where everything in every church was exactly the same, that way nobody would notice whats going on. When the only thing that binds you together, is "worship style" you have become obsolete. I was shocked when I went to Duke University Chapel, which I thought was a Methodist institution. Bowing to the altar, and all the fancy robes, I may as well have been in an Episcopal church. The only thing missing was incense. When pastors no longer have to pray, and seek God's direction for a Sunday service, but only have to "do what the rule book says" he has become lazy. Now he only has to worry about a 10 minute sermonette which rarely has anything to do with the Bible. When you have churches who have abandoned Scripture and become universalists, teaching everyone is gonna make it to God using "different paths", what incentive is there to invite anyone to church? We're all gonna be saved anyways right?
There was a time in the USA where only 10% attended church. This was the late 18th century. The came Wesley, Whitefield, and the Separate Baptists under Shubal Stearns. The Sandy Creek Baptist Chruch had over 800 members in 1770 in the middle of the mountains. They founded over 100 churches in 10 years
Also, why would anyone want to go to church when its no different than the world? When I visited Duke U chapel, I thought I was in an Episcopal church, all the bowing, genuflecting, fancy robes etc. The UMC has become more and more liturgical. When everything is the same outwardly, it covers up the ugliness underneath.
I might add that the Assemblies of God grew by 15% over the last 10 yrs, non denomation churches grew by 23%, Baptists by 12 % (no the SBC is not the only way to be Baptist) and house churches grew a whopping 85%. I believe the PCA is still trending upwards, as well as the ACNA. If you preach the Scriptures they will come believe it or not. But when you start teaching that we are all gonna make it to God no matter what path we choose, God will depart and the people will follow
I think the decline has happened for many reasons. All I’m saying is look at the bigger picture… beyond the world of conservatives/moderates/liberals (although I do thinking the infighting has not helped anyone’s message)… what I see??? People are soooo tired of church… the hypocrisy, the judgment, the lack of integrity, shoving things down their throats… and that’s happening no matter what camp you are in.
I think Americans will respond to Jesus, not religion… and I think that’s where we can find common ground. There is always hope when you put Jesus out there for people to meet.
Yes, the decline via modernization of the denominations began when the church started allowing divorced people to remarry, followed by women clergy.
Jeff, does the general conference vote removing 2553 act as controlling authority to all annual conferences, or could an annual conference still provide some disaffilation-type procedure if they so desired? At least one annual conference has a plan in place extending thru 12/31/2024, but I anticipate this being taken away and blaming the general conference for its removal. Thanks
Annual conferences can still potentially use ¶2549 to close churches and sell them back to their people. As was covered in my recent conversation with Scott Field, it is suspected that the new Judicial Council could close this option...
Has anyone done a survey of how much backlash has come from local churches?
There is no way to know that yet. Bishops and conference staff aren't going to say. I will, however, be interviewing Scott Field, the primary leader of the Wesleyan Covenant Association, on Monday. I'll try to quantify with him how many local churches are currently trapped in the UMC and seeking a way out.
They are so deeply deceived they are now living under a great delusion to which there is no coming out of I believe Romans 1:18-32 is being experienced here
The Bible says not to ordain women in the church. Jesus said that remember Lot’s wife. He destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah. The church has to follow the scriptures whether we like it or not.
In addition to the doctrinal disconnect, I’m really appalled by the amount of nasty “politics” that apparently went on. That in itself speaks volumes about the state of the UMC.
We are watching the demise and destruction of Methodism in real time. What a blessing to witness Gods sovereignty and judgment over apostates.
Does hope lie in the UMC joining with the Episcopal church?
They’re both apostate, I don’t know why not.
Here is no huge shock, the UMC has turned off comments on 100% of their YT videos. Echo chamber strikes again.
Post mortem? Trust me, The United Methodist Church is definitely not dead! The UMC I serve is growing, adding mission and ministry and reaching out to people with the love of God!
Good luck! The current UMC is the blind preaching to the blind.
@@jamesbarksdale978 Wow... that sure helps the conversation...
@@jamesbarksdale978Wow... that helps move the conversation forward...
To (near) quote Mariah Carey, "why you so obsessed with (the UMC) me?" You left, you're in the GMC church. So do your GMC thing. You clearly believe you are infallibly on the "right" side. Cool. You do you. The UMC will do themselves. Just find it a bit odd you spend so much time obsessing about an institution and church that you have left.
I find it strange that you, a stranger, think I care what you find odd. Perhaps you should follow your own advice and concern yourself with your own matters? If you look at the segment I published the day after this one, you'll see I'm concerning myself with the GMC, too. This song isn't about you. It's about Jesus first and then the Methodist heritage second. I'll continue to speak about whatever matches these priorities.
In all fairness, we are both perfect strangers. In fact, the nature of web publishing is exactly this...stranger commentary and discussion. It's fine, you don't have to answer the question about being so obsessed with a denomination you left.
@@timmychem The premise of your question is disingenuous. It's like the question "When did you stop beating your wife?" I'm not obsessed with the UMC. Obsession conveys something inordinate or unbalanced. It is completely normal and natural for people to look backwards in order to figure out how they want to chart a course forwards. Not to do so is irresponsible and stupid.
@@timmychemplain spoken has already addressed what you were wondering many times in the past. Also, Mariah Carey has nothing to do with it. Weird.
I always mourn a death and must marinate, for a time, in my misery(grief). Perhaps some others feel the same.
I did observe the absolute disrespect and condescention by many at the podium during General Conference. A real "rub your nose in it" with no hint of Christian empathy or compassion. Perhaps that lack is what I am grieving over the most.
You know what denominations are more irrelevant than the post- division ELCA, PCUSA, and the Episcopalians? The NALC, PCA, and the ACNA. All the breakaway denominations from mainlines are virtually invisible culturally and numerically. After the burst of energy which came after leaving dissipated, these denominations had no resources, no direction, and no ability to impact much of anything. And unlike the GMC, they had many of their parent denomination’s large churches proudly stand in their number. Big former UMC’s who left, as a whole, want nothing to do with the GMC because they know it’ll put them outside the mainstream of anyone under 40 years old. Standing alone they can be quiet bigots who can modify their position as the culture moved, while with the GMC they’re stuck being members with the 21st Century version of the ME South.
I swear someday Harvard MBA students will study how evangelicals in the UMC from 2012 to 2024 perpetuated their own cataclysmic demise. Stole defeat from the jaws of victory. I wouldn’t trust your leaders with carrying a sharp knife, let alone administratively directing an organization. You held all the cards snd somehow had to leave a bunch of your own chips at the table to leave. Incompetence of the highest order.
Ah but alas we part ways. Farewell Rob Renfroe. Farewell GMC. Farewell Good News. Farewell IRD. Farewell WCA.
Christ said, “Come out of her, my people…”
Yawn. Back in my youth in the ´50s and ´60s, there was a hullaballoo about the penetration of the KGB into the National Council of Churches. The United Methodist Church and the Episcopal Church were two that seemed to manifest "zig-zag parallelism" with the Soviet Union and Communist subversion in general. And then... the United Methodist Church changed its logo to what it is today, which instantly seemed to me to not be a cross and a stylized red flame, but a cross and a red flag, similar to that of the USSR and Red China. But since the rest of the decaying institutions in the US have gone woke, the United Methodist Church is merely trying to desperately keep its market share. Yet another indicator of the decomposition of "western" society.