HELLO ALL! I TOTALLY missed posting the video before this one in order. It is the video introducing the Chassis/Frame leadership team. I'll post it next. Sorry abouts that! And Thanks to the commenters who brought it up.
I've spent my life in a management capacity for a number of factories and these interviews and tours are the first I've ever seen where the interviewer answers the questions for the engineers. Is this a fact finding visit or a PR for Lippert?
PR or not. He make sure details are there, the facts get cover and the information is coming across in and easy to understand format for everyone. If it’s PR that’s cool if it’s not that’s cool. He’s getting us the information and to me that’s important and the rest is what it is.
All the controversy aside regarding the "frame flex" problems, I will say I enjoy how transparent Lippert was and their willingness to let a youtuber in there to video their process and facilities speaks alot about this company. Also like how they are using American steel.
So glad you were able to answer the question for them. Just an observation they went from I beam to here’s a sample of a finished upper deck. So nothing left out there.
JD, I have a 2020 (pre-covid) Keystone Alpine that is in the shop now having repairs made due to frame flex. Prior to it happening to me, back in October, I had never heard of 'frame flex failures'. Now, it's all over the internet! Your series of videos on this issue have been valuable in helping to understand why it's happening, and your trip to the Lippert factory really drives home the relationship between the Lippert frame (chassis) and the manufacturer's side walls, roof, etc (body). I would be highly interested in seeing some additional videos and interviews from one of the manufacturing plants, such as Keystone or Grand Design to illustrate what they are doing to ensure a strong rigid structure throughout the body of the RV. Can you make that happen?
LCI talked about the leverage applied to these pin boxes, and what length is approved within specs. Then they brought in a pin box manufacturer and helped them design a shorter pin box for them to be in spec. Common sense tells me to bring in the longest pin box available on the market, add a foot to it, then build the frame to handle that load. Notify all manufacturers that's the new minimum spec for all frames. Most of us are paying over 100k for these 5th wheels, I'm not going to notice the minimal upcharge for the overbuilt pin box area. I grew up in family steel business where my father bought us minimum requirement 1/2 ton trucks (like these frames are built), then complained we couldn't keep up with my grandfather's employees who all drove properly equipped 1 ton cab/chassis trucks. It all comes down to the owners value of the dollar for better for worse.
One thing I learned is that Lippert is covering their own, but I give a lot of credit they have stepped up at least to show their product. I do believe that a lot of the manufacturers are to blame for all the failures of their product. They have cut so many corners to make a huge profit and are selling these unit for 100K plus and don’t want to stand behind them. I believe it will take some kind of kind of pressure from congress to address the issues and make them more accountable for their product and their work. As long as people continue to buy from these companies they will continue to produce products that are designed to fail. Thanks JD for at least bringing some light to a dark problem.
Made in America quality. Process Control innovation produces a predictable quality outcome with continuous improvement, root cause and corrective action analysis. That's how we do it in the aerospace & defence industries. Spin-Off technology bought and paid for by Americans that benefit American industries creating good paying and interesting career jobs.
Great video JD. It's great to see what Lippert does to ensure quality control. I know this all has to do with the frame flex issue, but I still think there's something missing here. Somewhere between Lippert frame fabrication and the manufacturers of RVs there is a problem. Maybe RVs are just too big and we are all expecting too much of them. If that's the case, maybe everyone needs to look more realistically at what they actually need or be prepared to pay a lot more for a failure proof frame.
That has nothing to do with the quality of the finished product. These frames are built to spec and the RV manufacturer is only going to spec them just strong enough to save money. There's enough stories about frame flex and failure to show they don't build them properly to handle all the weight of these RVs.
Great video JD. Especially from the standpoint of the automation in the ability of the engineers to explain why certain aspects of the process were being done.
Great video, the machine you want is the prime example of what the frame goes through...in and around it's life span... it's also an example of what the frame does when you hook to your receiver and place the weight on it.... exaggerated to an extent... Again great video....😊
I believe the splice weld is a weak link depending where that falls on the chassis. Splicing beams the cut is either done on an angle or stiffened with splice plates.
The structural failures that RV owners are experiencing is a mess. We know that owners are looking for not only a solution, but who to blame. You are doing a wonderful job of documenting structural components, and what failure looks like. I think this information will be very valuable. Not only to owners, but to manufacturers highlighting quality problems. Nothing helps quality like shining a light on overlooked problems. Good job.
JD, nice interview, very nice manufacturing facility. What LCI, and all the OEM's need to do is, go get a unit that has failed in use. Take that rig apart and investigate every inch. Document this so owners and potential owners can see what is happening. I think right now with all the frame issues and upset customers, that a tremendous amount of damage has been and is being done to the reputation of all involved. If this has not affected rv sales I feel its just a matter of time until it does. The OEM's turning their back and basically telling customers it's not their problem is not good enough. There is a huge issue industry wide, they need to get a handle on it or prepare for the repercussions. I like these interviews to give LCI an opportunity to explain their end. I appreciate that this was probably a rare case, given curtent issues. I can also appreciate your position, but I felt you were a little soft, and more of a help to them. I'm not throwing rocks at you, had you gone in nostrils flared, teeth gnashing, you likely would not have gotten in the door. I appreciate your knowledge of the rv industry, your reviews of rv's and your contacts in the industry. Thank you for your diligence, time and time away from your family to provide this information. As many have stated, this is not an easy issue, and what I see from folks having these issues, they are wanting answers and / or help. And everyone is turning their back on them. Again, thank you for what you're doing. God bless and stay safe out on your travels.
That is one incredible operation, very impressive. Too bad you had to film behind the welding curtains. Great job though, very informative. And they obviously put a lot time and money into building that plant. The robotic welder took more time evaluating the weld than actually welding it.
Awesome automated factory. those ibeam carts are nice. I would like to see heat map video of those two upper deck comparisons with similated transportation and loading. Example hot spots all spread out stress not all in one spot.
It would have been interesting to know if Lippert designed their frames to be on the continuously - 100% duty cycle. Or are they designed as recreational use only and only a certain percentage of the time.
No matter what anyone says, there are problems with the manufacturing processes that leads to failures. Stop blaming the end user for these problems. RVs of yesteryear did not suffer from the amount of structural failures that they have had over the past five years. Whether the problem is with the welds, or design and engineering, the majority of the critical failures are caused by manufacturing and assembly. JD, the fact that you are doing this video series showing LCIs processes only gives evidence to the widespread failures of their frames and the oem superstructure failures. The two are directly related. If the frame bends where it shouldn't, the rest of the chassis will pay the price. LCI and the OEMs need to concentrate on improving their processes and doing a better job of standing behind their products instead of excusing the faulty products they are producing.
Another great video. I would have like to have seen the complete process and then a close-up on the finished welds after the frame is complete. Is the entire process done by robots? In looking at some finished TH-cam videos on actual rigs, they show some very poor welds in the non-beam areas. How does that happen if it’s all automated? Good video but some gaps in showing the finished product and consistent quality all the way through to production process. It looks fantastic and amazing in the video but I’m curious on why when people take their rigs apart and show the finished work it looks like a poor welding job. Is this a new process in the past year, or has this been around for a long time? Not to much to ask but can you get a video of the arrival of the chassis at Grad Design including all the welds in the pin box area. And then follow the process after that down their line. Somewhere some really bad work is happening based on the numerous TH-cam videos. I know that’s a lot to ask but I’m sure the community can help fund that video. Again, thanks. Good stuff.
Key differences between yield and tensile strength These are some of the major differences between yield strength and tensile strength: Yield strength is a measurement to determine the maximum stress that can be applied before permanent shape change is achieved in ductile materials. Whereas, tensile strength is the point of fracture. Deformation of materials occurs after yield strength has been reached then tensile strength is tested. In brittle materials, tensile strength is reached with minimal or no yield. In brittle materials, the material breaks soon after the yield point has been reached. In ductile materials, the yield strength is observed. Then ultimate strength is measured as the material continues to elongate to the breakpoint. Looking at the customers, you’re now in the tensile strength by definition.
Great tour and very educational. Thank you. But I do have a question however…. While I can completely understand why they weld the beams together in order to cut down on waste which saves money; however at some point in the cutting process to specs, you are going to get that connecting weld in a part that will be used. While it may be welded together, it is still two pieces of steel held by a weld instead of one solid piece of steel. Wherever there is a weld, there is the possibility of a break in that weld. So then how is a welded piece of steel better than a solid cut piece? Your video had shown a part coming down the line showing those connecting welds in the part (14:17 & 18:53).
Former Sunline employee, the RV market has had a shift to buyers that use thier RV's either full time or traveling longer distances for vacation than in years past. Then throw in the manufacturers who keep trying to reduce costs and weight and you have this explosion of frame failures, i tend to blame the manufacturers more than Lippert, they just build the frames that the manufacturers want. As long as Lippert's frames meet or exceed the manufacturers requirements.
Great series ,I think it's obvious the frame is not an issue it is the engendering of the coach and sloppy workman ship and probably the bolts & screws they probably got a deal on them at home depot which I probably the cheapest product on the planet. I have had so many bad products from cement with not enough cement in it to bolt & screws that are so hard they break like glass.
I agree. I doubt the frames are the issue. Or if they ARE the issue, what is being built by Lippert was approved by the OEM ahead of time so it's still on the OEM. A supplier like Lippert is going to build to approved spec. That's what they do. They dont know what all is going to be put on that frame once its shipped out. How could they?
The best manufacturing in the world means nothing when customers fifth wheel frames are cracking. Do the right thing Lippert and fix all the problematic frames you've manufactured. And stop harrasing Liz Amazing.
JD as expected another great review! I will say the step up design and the additional boxed in pin box sections gives me more confidence in the structures rigidity. The 6" tube space saver design appears to me to have the ability to flex at the end rails when loaded. As you mentioned the demo units are not full width. At full width this would only gets exaggerated IMO. Now overload the front of a toy hauler with multiple solar batteries and fill the storage area up and not add a significant amount of weight in the garage and that extra 30% design goes away quickly. It would be nice to know what engineering safety factor is incorporated into the frame design. Did you happen to have a chance to ask what their view point on adding Sumo springs was.
Obviously the front gooseneck is being ‘under engineered’ to take into account for what ‘may’ happen rather than engineer for what most commonly occurs. Over engineer the gooseneck structure and problems will likely disappear!
Another thought. When I buy anything, I learn and understand what it is suppose to do and not do. I don't use a screw driver as a chisel. I don't use my RV in ways it was not built for like putting a bunch of batteries in the front along with a ton of other heavy items. So many TH-camrs have done this for solar, plus likes and more subscribers without informing their viewers about the weight problem and possible other problems this will cause. You don't buy a 1/2 ton pickup to pull a 16,000 lb. RV and then go to the truck manufacturer and complain because your truck broke!!!!!!!!!!
@DavidJohnson-bf2cl - I would argue that an Onan 5500W Generator weighs as much or more than say a 600W - 800W Solar Setup in the front storage bay of a 5th wheel. That being said, the LiPo4 batteries are considerably lighter than flooded/lead acid, gel or AGM batteries. I don't have a solar system on my 5er but I did just replace the two AGM batteries with two LiPo4 batteries and the weight difference is considerable.
I did notice that the Lippert rep said they are currently using US made steel. He did NOT state they ONLY use US made steel when you asked him where the materiel came from.
There’s no way a machine welded my RV. 😂 robotic machine welds are super clean. The junk welds on my unit look like a rookie on his first day on the job did it. 2021 Grand Design Momentum 399TH, take note.
those machine welds look fine it is the Man made Welds that I question they need to inspect all welds on thos e frames not just trust these guys do the job.
Industry may not be a hugh as it us today if the quality continues to be as low as it is, combined with to high cost to the consumer. Real fancy PR job done in this video.
When you toured the plant you noticed right away that the Frame you looked at was an Alliance frame. What made you notice that??? Is their frame a little beefier??
The frame flex is still Lipperts fault. All it would take is something like a reinforcement patch on the area's that are none to crack. And this is the time to do it. The wrong pin hitch put on by the dealerships isn't Lipperts fault BUT how hard would it be to just to reinforce the area in question from the beginning.
WAIT A MOMENT!!! In videos 1 and 2 the company reps claimed they don't know everything the RV manufacturers are doing with their products and what's going on the frames. At 11:00 they Lippert guy says they know everything that be happening to that frame including the floor plan that's being used on each piece of steel. To me that's clear Lippert is cutting costs and cutting corners, and the end users are suffering because of it. Lippert is liable in these frame failures.
I’m looking for an area where the factory engineers are studying why frames are failing. That should be an essential job in this facility. Hopefully we will see that in the videos. Have not seen it yet.
Surprising video. At 18.20 he says all the frames are built to the manufactures specs. So...after seeing this I would think that this absolves Lippert from the bad name that the manufactures put on them. But then again when they get to showing off the 5th hitches it seems like they do the engineering on that. Steel thickness and all
Can you ask them to show their testing process of a complete frame? I am guessing they do not do a dynamic test ( fatigue ) on any frame. In the aircraft industry a test airframe is put thru many lifetimes at an accelerated pace. Simulating takeoff, pressurization, flight, landing over and over again while being electronically monitored. I would guess at best they use a CAD model run a simple CAE (computer aided engineering) test and call it good.
They hopefully are using programs like "solid works" for cad/cam designs, then FEA which stands for " finite element analysis" and do random tests. I doubt it because of lacking radiaused corner bracing is a big no no, a known stress riser. My brother is a mechanical engineer!!
Yes the steel is made in America. But it's usually scrap steel that has a mixture of other material in it . SDI steel has a few videos on the process. The question to ask what type of steel is Lipert using.
That's where the engineers prevail right? Doing tests and understanding that it's about how it's engineered and just adding more steel doesn't mean stronger.
Well, from all these videos it’s apparent that if you’ve a 5th wheel then you have a greater chance of this frame issue. Everything that was discussed was pertaining to 5th wheel RV. That leads me to believe a travel trailer would be a much better option. To me, the conclusion is do not purchase a 5th wheel.
Throughout these last 4 videos, at NO point, did JD try and challenge any of the answered questions. All of his responses were in agreement. In fact, JD spend most of the time talking and answering his own questions. Its really sad to see that anyone can be bought for the right price.
@BigTruckBigRV lol mom and pop? Your funny because even Politicians and government officials can be paid off. Money talks and everyone has a price. Get real with this BS.
I would be interested in knowing if the frames manufacturers are ordering are being used for those builds or if manufacturers are just grabbing what they have and saying it was built for this design and lippert is non the wiser. If the frame is designed and built to flex according to the design of the trailer but the manufacturer changes a thing or to. Then the whole trailer is comprised… right?
you really need to think about comments before you make them. Gooseneck trailers have a tremendous amount of flex when unloaded versus loaded and offset Flex when traveling.. they are designed that way to prevent the frame from cracking under load. th-cam.com/video/rjiKtybA-xg/w-d-xo.htmlsi=FIUpv5M8nFWoDqNc th-cam.com/video/KmdnyYX-dOA/w-d-xo.htmlsi=EhR8NKTCDLe_OIvX
Most of the current frame fractures are on frames that predate this facility. How does any of this help those of us whose frames were built before this facility?
Im not 100% sure, but it appears the only laser welds that are performed are the ones that join i-beams together. When the beams are assembled into a trailer all welds are done by hand.
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Ok. I agree 100 % thath The problem start when The superstrukture departs an The frame starts to take the beeting as a separat part. But then it is wery importent thath The welds Are meltet in to the steel and not on to the steel. 🇳🇴
Great video! So Lippert has an impressive process. Problem for Lippert is how they reacted to the Flex Frame issue. Deny, deny, deny. They have destroyed their credibility. They probably will get their credibility back. As for me, I’ll be looking at other manufacturers. They only have your back if they are forced too.
I owned a 1990 coachmen and a 1997 holiday rambler both of those trailers had fully boxed frames made with 1/4 inch steel. My 2022 has a i beam frame that lets just say is not as thick. The i beam frame is definitely not as strong and cheaper to produce.
In the lumber industry they do the same to make longer sticks with finger joints. Scavenging scraps to save a buck. With all the fancy equipment, the frames are dropping like flies all over the country. Everything " Engineered " to minimum specs that will do the job. No different than any other manufacturing process, CHEAPER, FASTER.
Convincing the RV manufacturers to make floorplans that don't have tall front headroom space, might be difficult. Because the ones who continue to make those floor plans will outsell the ones who shift to a different floor plan simply for a different designed upper deck.
I am surprised that the question of the steel’s tensile strength wasn’t brought up. As a steel building manufacturer which I noticed you work in. That is highly important. Especially with overhead, gantry or jib cranes that you don’t want to come down on top of your head. For the sake of illustration, to much tensile strength will make the steel to brittle and not enough will make it to weak. Where there is a lot of holes or drilling into the steel, also you will create compromise to the steel. Have you ever heard the term redundancy or if you have a failure in one area, other areas will support and take up the workload. What if you run over an object right after you pulled the RV off the lot with an unseen object in the road; and the tire has a blowout, therefore puts the stress on the frame and on the shell etc., this is Ludicrous. A-10 warthog Jet fighters have redundancy in computers and structure so if when it might fail there’s a back up. Could you imagine if our military pilots had this kind of craftsmanship in their aircraft, could you see our fighter pilots flying light tubing ultralights. Doesn’t GM make different makes of cars all under GM? Ford, Lincoln and Mercury. Dodge, Chrysler and Plymouth. And you know which ones are no longer. This is a line of you know what.
Steel structures, especially buildings and bridges are designed and engineered to the yield strength of the material they are using not the tensile strength
No you’re in the land of Oz. In the steel building mfg, we had to order a higher tensile strength steel. The steel we were using was too soft for earthquake zones to be used. Where did you get your schooling? As a global certified welder and never failed a test in eighteen years before becoming a nurse??? Will you submit to a polygraph test? If you have nothing to hide. We’ll cut through all the smoke and mirrors. Alternative topics not granted. Borderline tyranny?
So, the I don't believe anyone with the Space Saver upper deck is having issues. It's supposed to be much stronger. Also, I believe splicing the frame is probably fine considering the method and equipment they invested in to perform and test the action.
The best theory they have is the 6" tube is able to support a giant 5th wheel? I still stand by my original comment and if they are so confident why not offer a 10-year frame warranty like we do or ATC?
As a trailer designer then you know your comment is too ambiguous. You don’t know the steel alloy they are using. In many cases, the weld is stronger than the base material or stock if they’ve chosen the correct alloy. We simply don’t know from this video, and it might be a trade secret.
I know what alloy SDI produces! Regardless, adding a weld changes the section modulus in that local area, and the beam will crack at that location, all things being equal. All adult humans know splicing the primary load carrying member is sub-optimal for
@@jeffwalters6880I suspect your trailers are body on frame? Low boy, dump, roll off? The challenge with RV frames is they are designed for headroom, ACs on top, furniture, appliances, holding tanks and plumbing below, residential electronic and fixtures. Because RV manufacturers want to content the heck out of them and make the insides look tall with a high end condo like appearance, your limiting where things can be designed into frame. I'm not saying your wrong, I'm just saying RVs have a very unique purpose and you aren't able to simply add steel everywhere. I'm a big fan of commercial trailers, but they don't equate well to floorplans being built in top of them. I have a great idea though! Maybe you'd be will to collaborate. Would you be willing to build an RV Frame, with accomodations for RV equipment mentioned above that can keep the total weight manageable by Class 3 trucks? I'd love for a Trailer Designer to do this. Let's see if we can change the RV world!
It is great that you do videos, however instead of being a show and tell, please just tell us who or where is responsible for the issues that are happening, a couple removed the underneath membrane from their Grand Design and the welding and corner supports was not pretty at all, rough edges the supports looked inadequate and bent, computers are quick and precise however when settings or patterns are incorrect and not caught quickly, then inferior frames could slip through. If lippert is not at fault, be present when frame failure is suppected to inspect frame to see where the problem lies, this is the first step. Also, when you are doing an interview, just ask questions and seek answers you should not speak for them, it makes you look like you are proving you are smarter than them or that you are protecting them from error. Investigating videos need to be neutral not influenced in any matter, just my opinion! Everyone knows how to build a frame, to build properly and structurely is the key, computers are great, however they are only as good as their program and that is done by humans who then monitor the progress, people take breaks, use washrooms and have hindered attention spans for many reasons, thus here lies potential problems. I hope you respect this as contructive criticism, please if you have the means or the ability, just use your influence to find out the true cause of frame failure.I expect then a solution can be found, implemented and finalized.Yours truly, just trying to help, I do not own a 5th wheel RV with frame failure, I own an imagine 3100rd and take pride in my Grand Design RV, hopefully the companies responsible for their construction feel the same
The issue is where the Box as they call it is connected to the main frame. No way can those boxed ( what looks to be ) 2x6's can safely transfer all that load and its apparent from All the frame failures in that exact location. This has ZERO to do with how the manufacturer connects the walls to the frame! To think those walls would add any amount of structural support to the frame is just crazy talk.
This is obvious a fairly new plant, most frame issues I have seen videos or pictures of are from RVs with a few years age. The welds on those RVs that have had failures are obviously not roboticly welded. In my opinion Lippert has been working on improving there products by cutting out poor workmanship and going automated.
I was going to upgrade from a 2014 model year to a newer model but I canceled the upgrade. Once the RV companies get the frame & QC problems fixed in a few years maybe I will buy a new RV. My 2014 has had zero issues from the day purchased.
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HELLO ALL! I TOTALLY missed posting the video before this one in order. It is the video introducing the Chassis/Frame leadership team. I'll post it next. Sorry abouts that! And Thanks to the commenters who brought it up.
I've spent my life in a management capacity for a number of factories and these interviews and tours are the first I've ever seen where the interviewer answers the questions for the engineers. Is this a fact finding visit or a PR for Lippert?
I'm not sure he actually read this comment if he's liking it.
Or he's trolling. Not sure...
Yep, you’re exactly right, PR JOB !
PR or not. He make sure details are there, the facts get cover and the information is coming across in and easy to understand format for everyone. If it’s PR that’s cool if it’s not that’s cool. He’s getting us the information and to me that’s important and the rest is what it is.
All the controversy aside regarding the "frame flex" problems, I will say I enjoy how transparent Lippert was and their willingness to let a youtuber in there to video their process and facilities speaks alot about this company. Also like how they are using American steel.
So glad you were able to answer the question for them.
Just an observation they went from I beam to here’s a sample of a finished upper deck. So nothing left out there.
JD, I have a 2020 (pre-covid) Keystone Alpine that is in the shop now having repairs made due to frame flex. Prior to it happening to me, back in October, I had never heard of 'frame flex failures'. Now, it's all over the internet! Your series of videos on this issue have been valuable in helping to understand why it's happening, and your trip to the Lippert factory really drives home the relationship between the Lippert frame (chassis) and the manufacturer's side walls, roof, etc (body). I would be highly interested in seeing some additional videos and interviews from one of the manufacturing plants, such as Keystone or Grand Design to illustrate what they are doing to ensure a strong rigid structure throughout the body of the RV. Can you make that happen?
LCI talked about the leverage applied to these pin boxes, and what length is approved within specs. Then they brought in a pin box manufacturer and helped them design a shorter pin box for them to be in spec. Common sense tells me to bring in the longest pin box available on the market, add a foot to it, then build the frame to handle that load. Notify all manufacturers that's the new minimum spec for all frames. Most of us are paying over 100k for these 5th wheels, I'm not going to notice the minimal upcharge for the overbuilt pin box area. I grew up in family steel business where my father bought us minimum requirement 1/2 ton trucks (like these frames are built), then complained we couldn't keep up with my grandfather's employees who all drove properly equipped 1 ton cab/chassis trucks. It all comes down to the owners value of the dollar for better for worse.
I really like factory tours and this is one impressive factory!!
And yet they are still producing compromised frames. How is that with all these robotics?
One thing I learned is that Lippert is covering their own, but I give a lot of credit they have stepped up at least to show their product. I do believe that a lot of the manufacturers are to blame for all the failures of their product. They have cut so many corners to make a huge profit and are selling these unit for 100K plus and don’t want to stand behind them.
I believe it will take some kind of kind of pressure from congress to address the issues and make them more accountable for their product and their work. As long as people continue to buy from these companies they will continue to produce products that are designed to fail.
Thanks JD for at least bringing some light to a dark problem.
Made in America quality. Process Control innovation produces a predictable quality outcome with continuous improvement, root cause and corrective action analysis. That's how we do it in the aerospace & defence industries. Spin-Off technology bought and paid for by Americans that benefit American industries creating good paying and interesting career jobs.
Really didn't expect this level of automation.
Great video JD. It's great to see what Lippert does to ensure quality control. I know this all has to do with the frame flex issue, but I still think there's something missing here.
Somewhere between Lippert frame fabrication and the manufacturers of RVs there is a problem.
Maybe RVs are just too big and we are all expecting too much of them.
If that's the case, maybe everyone needs to look more realistically at what they actually need or be prepared to pay a lot more for a failure proof frame.
First thing I noticed was how clean and bright the plant was.
Plants fo that when they find out a camera from outside source is in house.
That has nothing to do with the quality of the finished product. These frames are built to spec and the RV manufacturer is only going to spec them just strong enough to save money. There's enough stories about frame flex and failure to show they don't build them properly to handle all the weight of these RVs.
Wow, very impressive, amazing high tech facility! Great Lippert PR Vid.
Yet when it breaks they point finger just like the politicians do..
Great video JD. Especially from the standpoint of the automation in the ability of the engineers to explain why certain aspects of the process were being done.
Great video, the machine you want is the prime example of what the frame goes through...in and around it's life span... it's also an example of what the frame does when you hook to your receiver and place the weight on it.... exaggerated to an extent...
Again great video....😊
Very informative video. Their factory operation is impressive.
This series of videos is great! Thanks for taking the time to show us the process
I believe the splice weld is a weak link depending where that falls on the chassis. Splicing beams the cut is either done on an angle or stiffened with splice plates.
Not sure there are any examples of those failing though. If you find a single example please share.
If you know anything about the welding process, you know that a good weld is stronger than the material being welded.
The structural failures that RV owners are experiencing is a mess. We know that owners are looking for not only a solution, but who to blame. You are doing a wonderful job of documenting structural components, and what failure looks like. I think this information will be very valuable. Not only to owners, but to manufacturers highlighting quality problems. Nothing helps quality like shining a light on overlooked problems. Good job.
JD, nice interview, very nice manufacturing facility.
What LCI, and all the OEM's need to do is, go get a unit that has failed in use. Take that rig apart and investigate every inch. Document this so owners and potential owners can see what is happening.
I think right now with all the frame issues and upset customers, that a tremendous amount of damage has been and is being done to the reputation of all involved. If this has not affected rv sales I feel its just a matter of time until it does.
The OEM's turning their back and basically telling customers it's not their problem is not good enough.
There is a huge issue industry wide, they need to get a handle on it or prepare for the repercussions.
I like these interviews to give LCI an opportunity to explain their end. I appreciate that this was probably a rare case, given curtent issues. I can also appreciate your position, but I felt you were a little soft, and more of a help to them. I'm not throwing rocks at you, had you gone in nostrils flared, teeth gnashing, you likely would not have gotten in the door.
I appreciate your knowledge of the rv industry, your reviews of rv's and your contacts in the industry. Thank you for your diligence, time and time away from your family to provide this information.
As many have stated, this is not an easy issue, and what I see from folks having these issues, they are wanting answers and / or help. And everyone is turning their back on them.
Again, thank you for what you're doing.
God bless and stay safe out on your travels.
Another great/awesome video. Very informative. Thanks
@@Skopper1 Why?
I love how people think the word engineer is interchangeable with capable.
This has been one of the most beneficial videos I have seen. Keep this type of video coming!!
That is one incredible operation, very impressive. Too bad you had to film behind the welding curtains. Great job though, very informative. And they obviously put a lot time and money into building that plant. The robotic welder took more time evaluating the weld than actually welding it.
Awesome video series JD!
Awesome automated factory. those ibeam carts are nice.
I would like to see heat map video of those two upper deck comparisons with similated transportation and loading. Example hot spots all spread out stress not all in one spot.
so glad we are able to let the company prove themselves. Great job
I’m waiting to see the QA inspections of the human welds - if any.
It would have been interesting to know if Lippert designed their frames to be on the continuously - 100% duty cycle. Or are they designed as recreational use only and only a certain percentage of the time.
Great question. I don't have that answer
Really appreciate the video tour. Sorry to see all the idiots making stupid comments.
No matter what anyone says, there are problems with the manufacturing processes that leads to failures. Stop blaming the end user for these problems. RVs of yesteryear did not suffer from the amount of structural failures that they have had over the past five years. Whether the problem is with the welds, or design and engineering, the majority of the critical failures are caused by manufacturing and assembly. JD, the fact that you are doing this video series showing LCIs processes only gives evidence to the widespread failures of their frames and the oem superstructure failures. The two are directly related. If the frame bends where it shouldn't, the rest of the chassis will pay the price. LCI and the OEMs need to concentrate on improving their processes and doing a better job of standing behind their products instead of excusing the faulty products they are producing.
The issue is outsourcing your RV frame at all. RVs of yesteryear didn't have Lippert!
Shutup
Looks like some people have their minds made up. You can lead a horse to water but you can’t make it drink.
Of course a robot can do a precise weld better than a human.
100% correct…!
Thanks!
Thank you so much!
Another great video. I would have like to have seen the complete process and then a close-up on the finished welds after the frame is complete. Is the entire process done by robots?
In looking at some finished TH-cam videos on actual rigs, they show some very poor welds in the non-beam areas. How does that happen if it’s all automated?
Good video but some gaps in showing the finished product and consistent quality all the way through to production process.
It looks fantastic and amazing in the video but I’m curious on why when people take their rigs apart and show the finished work it looks like a poor welding job. Is this a new process in the past year, or has this been around for a long time?
Not to much to ask but can you get a video of the arrival of the chassis at Grad Design including all the welds in the pin box area. And then follow the process after that down their line. Somewhere some really bad work is happening based on the numerous TH-cam videos. I know that’s a lot to ask but I’m sure the community can help fund that video.
Again, thanks. Good stuff.
Key differences between yield and tensile strength
These are some of the major differences between yield strength and tensile strength:
Yield strength is a measurement to determine the maximum stress that can be applied before permanent shape change is achieved in ductile materials. Whereas, tensile strength is the point of fracture.
Deformation of materials occurs after yield strength has been reached then tensile strength is tested. In brittle materials, tensile strength is reached with minimal or no yield.
In brittle materials, the material breaks soon after the yield point has been reached. In ductile materials, the yield strength is observed. Then ultimate strength is measured as the material continues to elongate to the breakpoint. Looking at the customers, you’re now in the tensile strength by definition.
Great video, great facility.
Very cool and informative.
Great tour and very educational. Thank you. But I do have a question however…. While I can completely understand why they weld the beams together in order to cut down on waste which saves money; however at some point in the cutting process to specs, you are going to get that connecting weld in a part that will be used. While it may be welded together, it is still two pieces of steel held by a weld instead of one solid piece of steel. Wherever there is a weld, there is the possibility of a break in that weld. So then how is a welded piece of steel better than a solid cut piece? Your video had shown a part coming down the line showing those connecting welds in the part (14:17 & 18:53).
Former Sunline employee,
the RV market has had a shift to buyers that use thier RV's either full time or traveling longer distances for vacation than in years past.
Then throw in the manufacturers who keep trying to reduce costs and weight and you have this explosion of frame failures, i tend to blame the manufacturers more than Lippert, they just build the frames that the manufacturers want. As long as Lippert's frames meet or exceed the manufacturers requirements.
This is good stuff 👍🏾
Great series ,I think it's obvious the frame is not an issue it is the engendering of the coach and sloppy workman ship and probably the bolts & screws they probably got a deal on them at home depot which I probably the cheapest product on the planet. I have had so many bad products from cement with not enough cement in it to bolt & screws that are so hard they break like glass.
I agree. I doubt the frames are the issue. Or if they ARE the issue, what is being built by Lippert was approved by the OEM ahead of time so it's still on the OEM. A supplier like Lippert is going to build to approved spec. That's what they do. They dont know what all is going to be put on that frame once its shipped out. How could they?
The best manufacturing in the world means nothing when customers fifth wheel frames are cracking. Do the right thing Lippert and fix all the problematic frames you've manufactured. And stop harrasing Liz Amazing.
The engineers are not there to make the product better. They’re there to make the product cheaper!!
JD as expected another great review!
I will say the step up design and the additional boxed in pin box sections gives me more confidence in the structures rigidity. The 6" tube space saver design appears to me to have the ability to flex at the end rails when loaded. As you mentioned the demo units are not full width. At full width this would only gets exaggerated IMO. Now overload the front of a toy hauler with multiple solar batteries and fill the storage area up and not add a significant amount of weight in the garage and that extra 30% design goes away quickly. It would be nice to know what engineering safety factor is incorporated into the frame design. Did you happen to have a chance to ask what their view point on adding Sumo springs was.
Obviously the front gooseneck is being ‘under engineered’ to take into account for what ‘may’ happen rather than engineer for what most commonly occurs. Over engineer the gooseneck structure and problems will likely disappear!
That’s a nice factory and a nice video so all you’ve done is show how high-tech they are and they’re frames still break
Spot on comment , Walter!
People should take into account their ignorance of engineering before claim deficiency on the part of the manufacturers.
Interesting , Thank You. Good job Remembering the Maitanance team
Another great video !!
Another thought. When I buy anything, I learn and understand what it is suppose to do and not do. I don't use a screw driver as a chisel. I don't use my RV in ways it was not built for like putting a bunch of batteries in the front along with a ton of other heavy items. So many TH-camrs have done this for solar, plus likes and more subscribers without informing their viewers about the weight problem and possible other problems this will cause. You don't buy a 1/2 ton pickup to pull a 16,000 lb. RV and then go to the truck manufacturer and complain because your truck broke!!!!!!!!!!
@DavidJohnson-bf2cl - I would argue that an Onan 5500W Generator weighs as much or more than say a 600W - 800W Solar Setup in the front storage bay of a 5th wheel. That being said, the LiPo4 batteries are considerably lighter than flooded/lead acid, gel or AGM batteries. I don't have a solar system on my 5er but I did just replace the two AGM batteries with two LiPo4 batteries and the weight difference is considerable.
I did notice that the Lippert rep said they are currently using US made steel. He did NOT state they ONLY use US made steel when you asked him where the materiel came from.
@7:50 he admits their frames are like play-doh. Soft and bendy.
Did he say "currently we are are using American steel"?
They told me they have been using US steel since making chassis
There’s no way a machine welded my RV. 😂 robotic machine welds are super clean. The junk welds on my unit look like a rookie on his first day on the job did it. 2021 Grand Design Momentum 399TH, take note.
those machine welds look fine it is the Man made Welds that I question they need to inspect all welds on thos e frames not just trust these guys do the job.
Good video - looks like a well-managed facility. Why no safety glasses on the shop floor?
Industry may not be a hugh as it us today if the quality continues to be as low as it is, combined with to high cost to the consumer. Real fancy PR job done in this video.
JD why didn’t we see the assembly floor? Is that welding robotic as well?
No, it's not robotic. Coming up soon.
Sounds good. With several trailers that have frame issues, the customer eats the cost. Spring hangers bend and break. Weak brackets.
When you toured the plant you noticed right away that the Frame you looked at was an Alliance frame. What made you notice that??? Is their frame a little beefier??
The frame flex is still Lipperts fault. All it would take is something like a reinforcement patch on the area's that are none to crack. And this is the time to do it. The wrong pin hitch put on by the dealerships isn't Lipperts fault BUT how hard would it be to just to reinforce the area in question from the beginning.
WAIT A MOMENT!!! In videos 1 and 2 the company reps claimed they don't know everything the RV manufacturers are doing with their products and what's going on the frames. At 11:00 they Lippert guy says they know everything that be happening to that frame including the floor plan that's being used on each piece of steel. To me that's clear Lippert is cutting costs and cutting corners, and the end users are suffering because of it. Lippert is liable in these frame failures.
So, do the trailer manufacturers use frames that were intended for another application, ie leftovers?
I would love to see the difference in specs from manufacturers like Brinkley, Luxe, Grand Design, Alliance, etc
I’m looking for an area where the factory engineers are studying why frames are failing. That should be an essential job in this facility. Hopefully we will see that in the videos. Have not seen it yet.
Surprising video. At 18.20 he says all the frames are built to the manufactures specs. So...after seeing this I would think that this absolves Lippert from the bad name that the manufactures put on them. But then again when they get to showing off the 5th hitches it seems like they do the engineering on that. Steel thickness and all
OEM would still have to approve it even if Lippert engineers certain parts.
Can you ask them to show their testing process of a complete frame? I am guessing they do not do a dynamic test ( fatigue ) on any frame. In the aircraft industry a test airframe is put thru many lifetimes at an accelerated pace. Simulating takeoff, pressurization, flight, landing over and over again while being electronically monitored. I would guess at best they use a CAD model run a simple CAE (computer aided engineering) test and call it good.
Coming soon
They hopefully are using programs like "solid works" for cad/cam designs, then FEA which stands for " finite element analysis" and do random tests.
I doubt it because of lacking radiaused corner bracing is a big no no, a known stress riser. My brother is a mechanical engineer!!
Yes the steel is made in America. But it's usually scrap steel that has a mixture of other material in it . SDI steel has a few videos on the process. The question to ask what type of steel is Lipert using.
I am not a structural engineer but that old design upper deck looks a lot stronger.
That's where the engineers prevail right? Doing tests and understanding that it's about how it's engineered and just adding more steel doesn't mean stronger.
I smell a possible class action lawsuit. Too many failures occurring and it’s growing.
Well, from all these videos it’s apparent that if you’ve a 5th wheel then you have a greater chance of this frame issue. Everything that was discussed was pertaining to 5th wheel RV. That leads me to believe a travel trailer would be a much better option. To me, the conclusion is do not purchase a 5th wheel.
Throughout these last 4 videos, at NO point, did JD try and challenge any of the answered questions. All of his responses were in agreement. In fact, JD spend most of the time talking and answering his own questions. Its really sad to see that anyone can be bought for the right price.
Not possible in many cases. This isn't a mom and pop company my friend.
@BigTruckBigRV lol mom and pop? Your funny because even Politicians and government officials can be paid off. Money talks and everyone has a price. Get real with this BS.
More smoke and mirror 🪞
In later videos are they going to do a stress test of the frame from the pinbox, upper deck to drop frame and the main frame? That is the real test.
Yes to most of those.
Very cool BUT no matter how cool this process is if what gets built on top of it isn’t perfect we still have a failure.
I would be interested in knowing if the frames manufacturers are ordering are being used for those builds or if manufacturers are just grabbing what they have and saying it was built for this design and lippert is non the wiser. If the frame is designed and built to flex according to the design of the trailer but the manufacturer changes a thing or to. Then the whole trailer is comprised… right?
Look at the frame on a PJ or Big Tex gooseneck trailer then look at the frame on a GD fifth wheel. It's easy to see the issue.
you really need to think about comments before you make them. Gooseneck trailers have a tremendous amount of flex when unloaded versus loaded and offset Flex when traveling.. they are designed that way to prevent the frame from cracking under load.
th-cam.com/video/rjiKtybA-xg/w-d-xo.htmlsi=FIUpv5M8nFWoDqNc
th-cam.com/video/KmdnyYX-dOA/w-d-xo.htmlsi=EhR8NKTCDLe_OIvX
You need to take a look at how thick the frame is on a gooseneck
Most of the current frame fractures are on frames that predate this facility. How does any of this help those of us whose frames were built before this facility?
Do they mention at all how thick the material is. Im new to this RV world. What i have seen so far is smaller is better.
Million dollar question how old is this plant and what was their process before it was in operation.
When did they go from manual to automated factory. Some of The Frames thath Are showed on TH-cam have definetly not robot welds.
Im not 100% sure, but it appears the only laser welds that are performed are the ones that join i-beams together. When the beams are assembled into a trailer all welds are done by hand.
Ok. I agree 100 % thath The problem start when The superstrukture departs an The frame starts to take the beeting as a separat part. But then it is wery importent thath The welds Are meltet in to the steel and not on to the steel. 🇳🇴
After seeing the welds on my chassis -- I think the Robots need an upgrade.
JD keeps saying frame failure
happens to very few fifth wheels I think he said .01% why then don't they just fix them no need for a recall?
Did you ask why their welds are so sloppy they look like beginners welding class.
This is all about the frame rails. Ask them about the other material they use in there and where it comes from.
Great video! So Lippert has an impressive process. Problem for Lippert is how they reacted to the Flex Frame issue. Deny, deny, deny. They have destroyed their credibility. They probably will get their credibility back. As for me, I’ll be looking at other manufacturers. They only have your back if they are forced too.
I owned a 1990 coachmen and a 1997 holiday rambler both of those trailers had fully boxed frames made with 1/4 inch steel. My 2022 has a i beam frame that lets just say is not as thick. The i beam frame is definitely not as strong and cheaper to produce.
Is a there a protective coating applied to the finished frame?
Coming up :)
I would rather have a step up with a proven structure than depend on everything hanging off a 6" tube.
So we never really seen any of the manufacturing !
Nice wish my tt frame was made here but it was made in china.
In the lumber industry they do the same to make longer sticks with finger joints. Scavenging scraps to save a buck. With all the fancy equipment, the frames are dropping like flies all over the country. Everything " Engineered " to minimum specs that will do the job. No different than any other manufacturing process, CHEAPER, FASTER.
Look like Lippert is building a good frame. Maybe they need to build RVs in general without that extra room in the front. Probably no perfect answer.
Convincing the RV manufacturers to make floorplans that don't have tall front headroom space, might be difficult. Because the ones who continue to make those floor plans will outsell the ones who shift to a different floor plan simply for a different designed upper deck.
How much did they pay you?
I am surprised that the question of the steel’s tensile strength wasn’t brought up. As a steel building manufacturer which I noticed you work in. That is highly important. Especially with overhead, gantry or jib cranes that you don’t want to come down on top of your head. For the sake of illustration, to much tensile strength will make the steel to brittle and not enough will make it to weak. Where there is a lot of holes or drilling into the steel, also you will create compromise to the steel. Have you ever heard the term redundancy or if you have a failure in one area, other areas will support and take up the workload. What if you run over an object right after you pulled the RV off the lot with an unseen object in the road; and the tire has a blowout, therefore puts the stress on the frame and on the shell etc., this is Ludicrous. A-10 warthog Jet fighters have redundancy in computers and structure so if when it might fail there’s a back up. Could you imagine if our military pilots had this kind of craftsmanship in their aircraft, could you see our fighter pilots flying light tubing ultralights. Doesn’t GM make different makes of cars all under GM? Ford, Lincoln and Mercury. Dodge, Chrysler and Plymouth. And you know which ones are no longer. This is a line of you know what.
Steel structures, especially buildings and bridges are designed and engineered to the yield strength of the material they are using not the tensile strength
No you’re in the land of Oz. In the steel building mfg, we had to order a higher tensile strength steel. The steel we were using was too soft for earthquake zones to be used. Where did you get your schooling? As a global certified welder and never failed a test in eighteen years before becoming a nurse??? Will you submit to a polygraph test? If you have nothing to hide. We’ll cut through all the smoke and mirrors. Alternative topics not granted. Borderline tyranny?
My replies keep getting deleted. I have a feeling that this video series is a sham. Good Luck!
So, the I don't believe anyone with the Space Saver upper deck is having issues. It's supposed to be much stronger. Also, I believe splicing the frame is probably fine considering the method and equipment they invested in to perform and test the action.
The best theory they have is the 6" tube is able to support a giant 5th wheel? I still stand by my original comment and if they are so confident why not offer a 10-year frame warranty like we do or ATC?
As a trailer designer then you know your comment is too ambiguous. You don’t know the steel alloy they are using. In many cases, the weld is stronger than the base material or stock if they’ve chosen the correct alloy. We simply don’t know from this video, and it might be a trade secret.
I know what alloy SDI produces! Regardless, adding a weld changes the section modulus in that local area, and the beam will crack at that location, all things being equal. All adult humans know splicing the primary load carrying member is sub-optimal for
@@jeffwalters6880I suspect your trailers are body on frame? Low boy, dump, roll off? The challenge with RV frames is they are designed for headroom, ACs on top, furniture, appliances, holding tanks and plumbing below, residential electronic and fixtures. Because RV manufacturers want to content the heck out of them and make the insides look tall with a high end condo like appearance, your limiting where things can be designed into frame. I'm not saying your wrong, I'm just saying RVs have a very unique purpose and you aren't able to simply add steel everywhere. I'm a big fan of commercial trailers, but they don't equate well to floorplans being built in top of them.
I have a great idea though! Maybe you'd be will to collaborate. Would you be willing to build an RV Frame, with accomodations for RV equipment mentioned above that can keep the total weight manageable by Class 3 trucks? I'd love for a Trailer Designer to do this. Let's see if we can change the RV world!
J.D. the only customers Lippert has are the RV Manufactures. They make frames to the RV Manufactures specifications so why waist the time.....
When it comes to frames yes, but Lipperts name is all over everything in RVs, including accessories. They are actually wanting to be transparent here.
How old is that plant?
I think he said 3 or 4 years
It is great that you do videos, however instead of being a show and tell, please just tell us who or where is responsible for the issues that are happening, a couple removed the underneath membrane from their Grand Design and the welding and corner supports was not pretty at all, rough edges the supports looked inadequate and bent, computers are quick and precise however when settings or patterns are incorrect and not caught quickly, then inferior frames could slip through. If lippert is not at fault, be present when frame failure is suppected to inspect frame to see where the problem lies, this is the first step. Also, when you are doing an interview, just ask questions and seek answers you should not speak for them, it makes you look like you are proving you are smarter than them or that you are protecting them from error. Investigating videos need to be neutral not influenced in any matter, just my opinion! Everyone knows how to build a frame, to build properly and structurely is the key, computers are great, however they are only as good as their program and that is done by humans who then monitor the progress, people take breaks, use washrooms and have hindered attention spans for many reasons, thus here lies potential problems. I hope you respect this as contructive criticism, please if you have the means or the ability, just use your influence to find out the true cause of frame failure.I expect then a solution can be found, implemented and finalized.Yours truly, just trying to help, I do not own a 5th wheel RV with frame failure, I own an imagine 3100rd and take pride in my Grand Design RV, hopefully the companies responsible for their construction feel the same
The issue is where the Box as they call it is connected to the main frame. No way can those boxed ( what looks to be ) 2x6's can safely transfer all that load and its apparent from All the frame failures in that exact location. This has ZERO to do with how the manufacturer connects the walls to the frame! To think those walls would add any amount of structural support to the frame is just crazy talk.
This is obvious a fairly new plant, most frame issues I have seen videos or pictures of are from RVs with a few years age. The welds on those RVs that have had failures are obviously not roboticly welded. In my opinion Lippert has been working on improving there products by cutting out poor workmanship and going automated.
The only welding shown in this video was them splicing the frame I beams.
I was going to upgrade from a 2014 model year to a newer model but I canceled the upgrade. Once the RV companies get the frame & QC problems fixed in a few years maybe I will buy a new RV. My 2014 has had zero issues from the day purchased.