Please read this. If you feel that your frame is experiencing something outside what's being described here YOU SHOULD absolutely reach out to Lippert, the RV manufacturer, and any other resource you think might be able to help you isolate and possibly repair the problem. The purpose of these videos was not to focus blaming anyone area, but to express what typically is happening when you see the type of movement and flex and most people are seeing. People getting upset at my interview need to understand how questions must be asked in this type of a format to get an answer at all. All the questions were questions that either I came up with or were submitted from my viewers. I sincerely apologize if anyone feels that I was soft or not digging deep enough. I was impressed that they were at least willing to have a conversation about this. I don't think there's any way to make everyone happy here, my goal was to provide a valuable amount of information to at least help identify what one of the issues may be as a starting point towards solving it. Everyone situation will be different. Again, if you feel that Lippert is at fault or if you would simply like to tour their facilities and see how they make their product, you should reach out to them.
Lippert’s facility is awesome. However, something is causing these failures. Seems to behoove them to make efforts to determine what is causing the failure. GD really needs to take the lead in determining just what is needed.
@@stevemaloney7903 look at this video at the 4:03 mark to see the exact issue that many owners are experiencing that leads to the detachment issue which ultimately leads to the frame over flexing. Missing LOTS of bolts exactly where Lippert discussed . th-cam.com/video/ctQ4K5ZoEik/w-d-xo.htmlsi=PWJ_lVuw5Dv1Yr_4
Trust the Engineer! First thing I noticed was the body language of both the VP and Engineer. The Engineer was straight forward and ready to provide knowledgable answers. BRAVO! The VP however had here head tilted as if to say why am I hear, this is not something she wanted to be doing. Just my simple observation. LIPPERT is to be applauded for allowing this interview and thank you for presenting this. Looking forward to part two.
This is Lippert's video deposition to distance themselves from Grand Design. All it takes at this point in the saga, just one catastrophic failure on the road, and all these companies will be sued for negligence. Grand Design's response to some customers is putting the Company in a bad light and Lippert is getting in front of this, as they should. I do not believe this is Lippert's problem. Excellent job getting access to these folks at Lippert and look forward to part 2.
They knew the questions in advance.. you may think I'm not the right person to have done this interview, but you must also know that when dealing with a major corporation, even having a remote chance to talk with senior executives about a touchy subject like this is virtually impossible. I knew going into this that there would be some compromise in terms of my expectations and answers to questions. Any "TH-camr" thinking it would be any other way.....well, they never would have gotten a return call or past a administrative assistant. Plus, I plan on showing detailed frame manufacturering and testing...again, if I had gone in their "tempers flavored", I would have never gained access to. These are things people want to see AND know more about. Hope this helps you understand my reasoning.
Grand Design has some explaining to do! It’s on them! Nothing good comes from either ignoring this issue or trying to put a bandage on it! People’s lives are being put in danger! It’s the same ole story of putting profits over people!
@@Bromil 100% they try to make these frames as cheap as they can so that there profit margin is huge!! then try to blame it on the consumer! I heard one guy from Lippert say that these rigs are not built to tow across the country all the time!!! WHAT?!?! I didnt buy a 100k+ rig to sit at a trailer park!! Again trying to blame the consumer!! The more i watched this video the more pissed i got!! And exactly frame failure not frame flex!!! There is a video on you tube where a guy has a almost new 5th wheel toyhauler that he has towed a good bit and i believe he said his frame above the hitch was broken in 17 different places!! not flexing but broken!!!! absolutely unreal not wanting to call it what it is!!🤬😡🤬😡
Again, I think you let Lippert slide on some of their answers. “RV accepted practices” as in “there are no rules”. As shown on some youtube videos, Lippert has come out to an RV and added hundreds of pounds of steel reinforcement, gusset plats, crossmembers and so on to help the RV owner get back on the road. I would think that Lippert would WARN the RV manufacture that if they continue to exceed/abuse their original design specifications they would simply stop doing business with them. “Working in unison“ How can Lippert say working their working in unison when they don’t tell the RV manufacture this is acceptable and this isn’t acceptable. I’m in no way trying to blame Lippert for all frame failures. But Lippert is in a position to tell RV manufacturer if you exceed this tolerance at this location you have voided our guarantee that this frame will meet your expectations. Ask Lippert if have they ever taken a brand new fully loaded Grand Design Momentum apart to see if the RV manufacture has exceeded their provided specifications. Again this issue is only in the RV industry as they are ungoverned by ANY governmental agency. Pls ask if the welders at Lippert are AWS certified.
I agree 100%. I am a certified weld inspector with AWS, and if they do not have certified welding procedures and processes along with welder’s certified in those procedures, you do not know what kind of weld you are getting.
The best welder in the world cannot fix material that's too thin to support the weight. But to agree with you, should be union trades workers with welding certificates and training.
They knew the questions in advance.. you may think I'm not the right person to have done this interview, but you must also know that when dealing with a major corporation, even having a remote chance to talk with senior executives about a touchy subject like this is virtually impossible. I knew going into this that there would be some compromise in terms of my expectations and answers to questions. Any "TH-camr" thinking it would be any other way.....well, they never would have gotten a return call or past a administrative assistant. Plus, I plan on showing detailed frame manufacturering and testing...again, if I had gone in their "tempers flavored", I would have never gained access to. These are things people want to see AND know more about. Hope this helps you understand my reasoning.
I agree. Every building I built with columns and Moment Frames are welded by a certified welder and X-ray every weld and if not up to standard then it is ground out and re-welded till it passes. I bet the welders at Lippert are not all certified and or welds tested.@@kentrumm1385
I thought it was just me, but yeah... her body language is telling. Tilted head, crossed legs and hands denotes a defensive stance. And was it just the lense used, but why is her hands larger than her head?
Totally agree! As soon as she tilted her head, it showed indifference and an uncaring attitude towards people complaining about her company. Crossing her legs and fingers indicate a defensive posture.
Well done. People need to understand the Lippert personal are not used to or trained in doing an interview like politicians. I support there answers and respect Lippert for allowing this.
In a previous job I had to visit the Bluebird school bus plant in Georgia to observe the manufacturing process. They manufacture all of their own school bus frames and the highly skilled workers showed me the jigs they used, the quality of the steel, parts, etc. Then I saw the bus assembly. I can tell you to rest assured that our school children are riding in the absolute strongest and best built buses in the world. Unbelievable quality! If they built trailer frames there would never be an issue-guaranteed!
I had feared it would go this way... While I applaud you JD for wanting to take this subject head on - please stop adding your two cents to explain their answers or lead them on to a desired conclusion. Not sure if it is true but definitely looks and feels like you provided the questions before hand. I must ask you - while in Elkhart are YOU going to sit down with let's say Grand Design or Alliance or anyone of the leading RV manufacturers?
I think you are doing the best job on this issue, level headed approach talking to the engineering staff and digging down on standards and procedures .looking forward to the next episode....thanks p.s. dude got on a plane for this! OMG
Lawyer mouth certainly shuts down the engineer quickly when he may well throw a manufacturer under the bus. She's a master at not answering a question.
They knew the questions in advance.. you may think I'm not the right person to have done this interview, but you must also know that when dealing with a major corporation, even having a remote chance to talk with senior executives about a touchy subject like this is virtually impossible. I knew going into this that there would be some compromise in terms of my expectations and answers to questions. Any "TH-camr" thinking it would be any other way.....well, they never would have gotten a return call or past a administrative assistant. Plus, I plan on showing detailed frame manufacturering and testing...again, if I had gone in their "tempers flavored", I would have never gained access to. These are things people want to see AND know more about. Hope this helps you understand my reasoning.
As the first to discover a LIPPERT problem, leaving out braces, which led to an NHTSA recall eventually, I have concluded that 1 Lippert welds are just one step better than what are called chewing gum welds in the industry. 2 Lippert never met a triangle they liked 3 Lippert thinks that welding into the web of an I beam is just fine. 4 Lippert or more correctly LCI makes or has made a whole line of products that are prone to Infant Mortality, mid life failure and particularly early end of life. 5 Lippert blames the manufacturer for frame "design". It took about 2000 pounds of steel to fix my frame both in the axle area as well as the tongue. Does anyone at Lippert look at the normal frame flex as regards fatigue life? And is that flex more than the compliance of the adjoining structure can endure? Maybe then need someone with real engineering training to quiz them.
Jd thanks for taking the time to interview them. But watching both part 1 & 2 coming from my own engineering background, having been in the spotlight myself, they side stepped the questions as fast as they could, granted they have to on this type of video, so I get that. I didn’t really expect the video to admit to anything at all. This it’s not just a Lippert problem, it stretches across the rv industry that items need to improve especially when it’s a structural issue. And yes our rv has had an issue fixed under warranty. There’s a lot of engineering that goes into ever part of it but their factors of safety and quality levels need drastic improvement. Hopefully this helps with motivation to improve.
Thank you JD. During my 26 years (so far) in the auto industry I have witness and worked on this kind of situation where a supplier supplies part of a system that fails and now when the system fails there is this gray area on who is at fault, the OEM or the tier 1 supplier. For chassis that are designed by the OEM, Lippert will never be at fault provided they execute the chassis as per OEM drawings and specifications but in the cases they are hired by the OEMs not only to provide a chassis but to design it, they may be at fault if their team missed something, otherwise, the failure may occur because the OEM didn't inform the right set of data (for example informed a weight that is lower than the real weight, etc). It would be interesting to know if Grand Design designs their own chassis or if they hire Lippert to do that work. Anyway, Grand Design Momentums seems to be light , for the size and mission (toy hauler), when compared with a true full time rig like DRV. That may indicate that Momentums are not really designed for full time living.... Are there any failures on DRVs?
DRV has a total different frame design, it is close to indestructible. I even have a golf cart trailer attached to the rear of the frame. I’ve never noticed any kind of frame flex wobble, and there are definitely no cracks or broken welds anywhere. It is built similar to a frame on top of another frame. They’re very impressive if you don’t believe me, look into it for yourself.
As a project engineer i would like to thank JD for this great piece of reporting/journalism first. Secondly, there are a few things in the interview that stood out to me and a few that the viewers have commented here: 1) 9:40 She said that they have no way to calculate the different structures that RV manufacturers put on the frame. That`s partly true. Lippert can test and calculate the maximum load on each point of the frame (front, middle, back) and publish those recommended loads to the RV manufacturer in order to avoid excessive load on a particular part that would cause the frame to fail or degrade faster than normal. It is being done in the automotive industry internally (as the manufacturer is usually the one that builds the frame/chassis and the body on top). So, Lippert don't have to calculate what is being put on their frame - only the maximum allowed stress on each frame point, similar to max haul weight figure on a truck (Which is the max weight the truck frame can hold when you load it at a certain point). 2) There should be a guide/engineering spec sheet that informs the manufacturer the recommended weight distribution on the frame. As it is not only the weight load on a particular part of the chassis but also how the overall weight is distributed along the chassis points. There might be a certain weight at the front that would cause harm if put directly load at that point and there could be overall percentage of weight distribution that is recommended to uphold when building the body (ex: up to 20% GVWR to the front, 50% GVWR in the middle and up to 30% in the rear). 3) 15:00 The discussion about approved pin boxes. That`s information that the customers should know and RV dealers should know also. When dealerships agree on pinbox replacement at their centers, they should have the information and the capability to measure and see if the "new" pinbox or gooseneck meets the specification of that particular RV. In that case, they should have clear instructions on how to handle these cases - perhaps call Lippert to confirm the particular model of the new pinbox/gooseneck can withstand that particular chassis specs - perhaps use an online database with the exact length, weight, structure of the king pin to ensure it is within the "safe" specs. There are many ways that a procedure can be applied between Lippert and the manufacturers and the dealerships to ensure that they know what to do and where to get the required information before conducting "modifications" on an RV. Also they might consider extending the base of the kingpin for larger RV`s (above a certain GVWR) to cover more points of contact with the front frame in order to provide extra stability during traveling and sudden forces that are applied between the truck and the pinbox and the frame.
🤯🤯 What in the hell did she say?! The frame not moving at the same rate as the wall attached to it!!?? 🤯🤯 I wouldn’t give you $5.00 for one of those behemoth rolling garbage wagons out of Elkhart! I worked in that sh*those town on that overpriced oversized GARBAGE, that’s why I’m building my own trailer. 💥💣😎
Main problem is certain companies use a 1/8th inch frame wall thickness when it should be 5/16 or 3/8th thickness m, but thatcuts into three profit margins
Well done Lippert and BTBR for the legwork to put this all together! Very impressive. The VP and Engineer did an excellent job and in spite of being a full timer for a number of years and "knowledgable", I learned a lot. These are the people and this is the company that I wish was making entire RV's.
Very informative video. A couple of years ago, you posted a video on switching from a fifth wheel kingpin to a gooseball hitch. I reached out to Lippert to see if a certain gooseball hitch would work on my Avalanche. They were very quick to give their blessings on the one I had chosen and were very helpful. So to anyone thinking of changing their fifth wheel hitch, Lippert is more than happy to assist and are quick with answers.
If you want to see what a REAL LIPPERT FRAME looks like on a Frand Design Momentum, WE took ours apart last week & just posted the video of the 5th grade welding job lippert did to send out. However, grand design, Montana, & Alliance are at fault ALSO for seeing the 5th grade welding job yet still built on it.
I think someone shared a video of your setup. The gusset, were they installed aftermarket? I'm only asking because I didn't see those on the frames I saw at Lippert. Also, it looks like it may be sidewall detachment, did you notice thr lag bolts not holding? Let's chat if you want.
This was fantastic! Hats off to companies that will talk to a youtube channel about a community hot topic about their product. Especially a company that is not selling a direct to consumer product. Some commenters hate on so many aspects and act like this should have been a court room grilling😂
Good job with the questions and just letting them talk and repeat the answers their lawyers gave them. This isn''t the format to challenge answers, but to investigate the answers they give. This should be a good interview series. Once question I would like to see asked is "are there load weight guidance for the upper deck? Or should the pin weight not exceed XXXXlbs? " I think this theory should be discussed for these heavier capacity trailers.
Look forward to part 2 and possibly part 3. So, far I can only comment that the two Lippert executives were very careful to not lay the blade on themselves (of course) and two not lay the blame on a specific RV manufacture practice (opening them to a defamation lawsuit). I expected nothing more or less.
What are industry accepted practices? Is there any involvement of NTSB or NHTSA in the safety proofing of the build? Is there any road testing performed by the companies? We all should be well aware that theory and reality can be very different. Thanks JD for delving into the issue!
We were lucky and didn't have frame failure we had frame flex. We have had this "flex" twice now (2 different RV's) They were both Keystone products and they covered the issue under warranty without issue. Once they took our wall apart, we could see that the welds in the wall (wall studs) were very poor. The welder stated that he has a hard time repairing because of the metal being so thin on the wall studs. So, we think that Lippert does hold some of the responsibility, but we need to look at the "rest" of the components. If the walls are part of the structure, then they need to be built to a better standard as well. Thanks for the video!
@@billbillinger2491 JD’s video helped me to understand our specific problem. If the walls are part of the structure then the welds and quality of the metal in the wall studs on our was severely lacking. We have photos of some terrible welds. One of us worked in Quality Assurance in a machine shop and those would never be allowed out the door. Just our opinion
I just thought of one thing of fault that no one has mentioned that we see everywhere. You see everywhere from the cheapened door latches to the garbage suspensions. Corporate bean counters. They're responsible for figuring things out like how to cheapen something up with an acceptable failure under warranty rate to overall save the company even more in money to increase profits. See it in the automotive industry all the time, planned obsolesce. Wouldn't be surprised if that was the grand design of a manufacturer. Get a reputation of quality, then your products last to long and your customers are not rebuying a new one in your metrics time frame, so you start to make it to where it starts having failures in a time frame in which your research tells you people expect failures to happen. How sad our society has become to do this with every product.
Great job JD! I understand that you have to be very careful in how you handle their answers. As mentioned in earlier comments the VP was there only to protect Lippert ! It was obvious by the way she was answering tooo many questions for the Engineer. In the early days of slide-outs very few manufactures, both frame and superstructure ever realized that when they cut a hole in the wall it lost most of its strength, most never did! This caused leaks, cracks in the walls and ceilings and frame damage. I was selling Airstream's when they attempted their first slide out, not having one was killing their sales! When we attended the Louisville show they had one setup for display, we ordered two for our spring show in Austin TX. When we were planning the setup for the show Airstream informed us the slide out floor plan would not be available, Yada Yada Yada! I had known the dealer rep for years, when he arrived in Austin he told me on the model in the Louisville show, the slide out was setting on it's own stand! They went in at night and setup the trailer while no one else was there, set the slide next to the trailer on its own stand! Ihad noticed the solid curtain around the bottom so no one could see??? After they cut out the wall for the slide they could not find a way to maintain the integrity of the aircraft type frame that makes the Airstream what they are!
First off, great video JD. I always enjoy your content. But at the end of the day, RV component and manufacturers need actual REGULATION! There needs to be ACTUAL ACCOUNTABILITY in the RV industry. The fact that there is very little consumer protection is a credit to the lobby of Lippert, Moryde, Grand Design, Keystone, Winebego, etc.
I just kept thinking, “your honor, leading the witness”. I get they build/design things to keep cost and weight down. But maybe they need to downsize these RV’s so the design can be improved. This would mean you’d need a larger tow vehicle for smaller RV’s. But after spending 23 years in automotive testing these RV’s are woefully under designed. Cars cost so much because they are over engineered for scenarios that they may never encounter. I think the RV industry needs to follow the auto industry and learn a few things. I’d rather pay more for a quality RV, vs a cheap RV that fails long before it should.
This is why we have never owned a travel trailer or 5th wheel. Class A on Freightliner chassis never had an issue. That said, Lippert was passing along double speak. If Lippert really wanted to help, they would have spec'd out load limits at different points of the frame, overhang allowances and so on.
This really sounds like a problem with the steel, weld, not holding cracks and brakes in different areas. The steel supplier will come out in the wash sooner or later.
I’ll reserve judgement until the series is done but nothing in this video (other than the aftermarket pin box question) really tells us what’s going on with these frames. I’d really love to hear a Lippert exec explain why they sell products like the cargo tray that they sent a tech to weld onto your personal 5th wheel that they then say will void the warranty on my frame if I install it. If they are selling products that are intended to be attached to the frame of an RV there should be a way then to install that product without voiding the warranty on that frame.
I’ve been around heavy construction and watched the frames of tractor trailers flex with loading equipment and supplies. I’ve built multi level buildings. I was in sheet metal. HVAC and roofing. Metal flexes under loads. Metal grows and shrinks on roofs under the sun. Temperature. These super structured RVs are getting huge. I’d expect movement and tolerances. I’m sure there are tolerances for metal flex in building yachts. The bigger you get the bigger your maintenance is to keep equipment working. I don’t think the average public thinks steel moves.
Very comprehensive part one! So far it sounds like there are too many factors to take into account, and it really depends on each situation whether the issue is with the RV manufacturer or the end user has done something that would cause the issue.
Our 2019 unit, 26ft long conventional travel trailer had tons of frame flex. We would park, chock and level. Then wedges between tandem axles for stability. Then we'd put 4 corner jacks down to just snug and send out the slide. After that i'd have to re-balance the corner jacks as it would lean (as expected). Later in the same day, or for sure the next morning, the door would not clse or open without a ton of force. Then I spent considerable time every camping trip balancing the stabilizing legs to 'tune the door. Several times every trip.
You started with an airplane flight. Would you ever consider flying on an aircraft where Lippert did the engineering of the airframe? I doubt it very much. Lippert has had various frame issues in their products for a long time. I remember coming across them 10 years ago when I was considering a new travel trailer. A bit of research on the model I was considering I found numerous accounts of frame cracking on ones with Lippert frames. I won't go near a product from Lippert based on that and the newer information just reinforces my viewpoint.
I agree with that statement. But I also know the R.V. manufacturer controls the money and buying power. They probably completely dictate to Lippert exactly what they desire, and those decisions are all based on GREED not on testing or building the safest or most durable product. The manufacturer wants lower cost per unit, less weight for a better towing factor and the minimalist design they can get by with as the average R.V. gets towed very few miles in their lifespan and sits in a storage lot or next to someone's house and typically fails from sun damage and water intrusion first.
I think people also dont think about the sheer forces roads can have on the over all units. Just because tires can drive 75mph doesn’t mean you should. Imagine the forces when you travel down the road and hit the bad dips and bumps at 70-75 verses 55-65. You feel it in your body, the truck and the trailer. Now imagine a 14k toy hauler and a 1000lb tow past the rear axles and you repeatedly hits potholes, dips, bumps that make you wonder if your bike rack is still there. All of those stresses people rarely think about, can prematurely wear a frame much faster. 15-20 years ago we didn’t drive that fast. These new mini diesels are pushing a 1000lbs of torque so now we load heavier, drive faster and of course things will wear quicker. People in all honesty are not caring much about load distribution and safe towing technique. It’s load up, hitch up and go. And haul ass at 70 till you get there on americas prime conditions roads. Ill say it since others wont, some times its OE. Maybe not all the time, but people never wanna admit they are at fault and maybe dont know what they are doing. But I dont trust the rv manufacturers much. I trust the frame manufacturers more.
We *never* tow faster than 55 MPH and anyone who does IMHO is just an accident waiting to happen. Life is all about the journey as in *NOT* the destination. Where is the fire that people tow all that weight at such excessive speeds?
Gooood interview JD!!! We now have some more insight on the frame from their point of view, which added some clarity. Can’t wait for the next one!!! I was hoping you guys would get up and go look at the frame behind them and explain some of what was discussed, but I’m sure that’ll be in the next one. Oh, I would’ve loved to see where you’d put the coffee pot on that frame😂😂 👍😃🍻☕️
First of all, congrats on getting a manufacture on record. I would like to have the professionals you were talking to answering the questions in a deeper logical manner, instead their answers were brief, short and general. YOU however added YOUR comments, I watched this video to hear their side of this very sad story not your take on it. You would be well served to watch professional interviewers on how to pry information their guest. It is my fault my expectations were set as high as your reviews of RV's from your channel your accepting these responses is perhaps a fear of harming your reputation with a major manufacturer, true or not that is what it appears. I hope you toughen up your desire for answers in the following videos, you owe your audience that much.
Nicely done. There are so many variables that it’s difficult to find the “smoking gun.” But a Lippert decision maker told me that “we’re in the business of selling steel - why would we ever want to sell less steel?”
Great interview JD! Seems to me that the frame manufacturers need to have a stronger influence on how the super structures are built on their frames to ensure there isn’t a compromise. Seems as if the RV manufacturer and the frame manufacturer have a disconnect in communication and it’s causing possible over loads to the frames and the frames aren’t being built onto in the way they’re designed to be.
This such a bullshit video! It is quite obvious that all of these questions were pre approved by both parties prior to this recording. A completely staged interview. Its basic physics, a strong foundation is required for any build, whether its a house or a RV. What truely needs to happen is a Clas Action Law Suit against Lippert, all RV Mfg, Dealerships. They all have become very wealthy selling this trash and now they all need to be held accountable.
His comment about changing the pin box to one that is longer, being detrimental to structural integrity is spot on. A longer pin box changes the geometry and can increase the leverage and resultant strain on the steel structure. These 5th wheel frames are not built like the frame on a tractor trailer. The steel isn't as thick and the pin box being placed way out in front of the frame is just asking for problems. Continuous stressing causes steel flexing, and will break the welds and in some cases actually crack the steel member. There are many TH-cam videos showing 'frame flex' which is actually a broken frame. In several of these videos, the original pin box was changed to one that is several inches longer.
My opinion coming from a construction background and dealing with engineers over the years tells me that the engineers are doing the minimum required sizes to make the frames affordable. It is all about the money and bottom line. To me the sidewalls should not have to help out with the frame flex. The frame which is the foundation of the rig should support the rig on its own. The way the aluminum is welded on the two sides so they have a flat surface to attach the walls interior and exterior, how can that give strength to the frame from flexing? Aluminum flexing and stress normally breaks right at the edge of the weld. Saw that in the bicycle industry when they were using aluminum building BMX and Mountain Bikes. Frame stress from flex would break the frame at the weld. My opinion is to build a frame strong enough to handle the load without flexing to the point of breaking. I feel the same way with the way they allow the axles to be rated lower than the entire GVW as they count the pin weight or tongue to carry part of the load. Never have liked that. My thought is when that rig goes around a corner look at the weight put on that side of the axle and tires. I know some manufactures like Lockwood had upped the size of their axles on their trailers which is a better way to go. Hate to say it that it is money before safety and performance.
As an Rv Repairer for 20 years I have seen many frame failures on all brands across the industry. I’m in no way biased towards any brand (I don’t even own an Rv) I’ve had to do all repairs to help strengthen the front overshot including the chassis and the side wall structures. In my opinion (and first hand experience) any slide outs in the overshot take out a lot of strength in the sidewall and create a weak spot - filon always cracking and frames always breaking around these areas. The first noticeable issues are when the slide outs stop working correctly or at all. Like I said, I’ve seen this issue on a lot of manufacturers not just GD. I don’t think Lippert is to blame completely, but I also think they should “put their foot down” on manufacturers that don’t use their products correctly. I’ve seen this with a lot of other products that Lippert manufacturers alter to suit their desires, not so much the way the product was designed to be installed, take the in-wall slide for example.
My 2016 35'ft Forest River Columbus 295RL has the factory installed frame box and kingpin, nothing has been changed and yet I see that familiar side panel bowing from the upper deck to the lower deck around the landing gear. I've inspected it a couple of times and have yet to discover what caused it. I've checked for cracked or failing welds as well as for any distortion of the steel in the transition section from the upper to lower deck and so far nothing. What I'd like to see is stiffening in this area with thicker cross-members and gussets. Like yourself, I too have been contemplating removing the kingpin and installing the gooseneck hitch as that will eliminate the side to side flexing of the front frame structure. A lot of campgrounds are not level including the one I live in and a fifth wheel plate simply doesn't have enough side to side motion to counter uneven road surface whereas the gooseneck does not have this issue as it rides on a ball which the towing vehicle and the 5th wheel RV moves independently of each other. As I am a trucker of 39-years, I know that 5th wheel plates and kingpins on semi-trucks receive a lot of damage and wear and tear from normal use, where as 5th wheel RV's are light weight and not designed for side to side flexing forces. I do understand the engineer's statement about leverage however most of the damaged 5th wheel RV's I've seen on YT about broken/cracked frames have the factory frame boxes and kingpins. For me, once I am able to get my wagon hooked up to a truck and take the load off the landing gear, I'll be able to perform another inspection to see if I have a broken or cracked frame component. It's so unnerving to have to deal with this.
sorry Lippert, This is still going to roll back to you in my opinion. If someone can prove that it was known that these RV producers were allegedly producing over weight or out of spec RVs, it is going to be tough to stand on the sidelines and sagely say we are not responsible for this, in my opinion. Best practice is to engineer a design to 3 times the expected load, in any case. Some of the RVs I have seen would not even pass a normal home framing inspection, and these things are rolling down crappy interstates and highways to get to campgrounds not sitting on a lot.
Some observations: Are the Lippert welders certified to industry standards? Is there a regular weld inspection done? By an independent testing service? Also, an unknown to this whole topic is in any instance, was the RV overloaded? People don't regularly weigh their unit to make sure they below the GVWR. I would agree that the relationship between Lippert and the RV mfg. is a little fuzzy or curious. I get they don't want finger pointing going on, fine line. Great job trying to get to the bottom of it.
I find it convenient when two manufacturers contribute to building a product that it’s always the other guys fault. My frame didn’t just flex. The metal was torn.
That's what I read was happening...that not so much that welds breaking, but metal pieces were tearing. That means the engineers designing specific trailer frames are not making them robust enough...which is surprising, because most engineers 'over engineer'. ...unless someone else is asking them to 'make it lighter', or 'thinner'.
After 40 years in RV repair, my experience is “owner ignorance “ when loading their RV. Yes! Very rarely a flaw occurs, however, 99.5% of the time the RV is OVERLOADED FORWARD OF THE AXLE !!!! I have customers stand toe to toe with me and argue that the RV is not overloaded ! Yet when the weight on the pin box is measured the silence is deafening . I have personally seen hundreds of 5ers a couple of lbs (100-300 lbs) overweight on the scales BUT were a couple of THOUSAND LBS overweight on the pin box. Remember this formula 15%-20%(max) of the weight described and printed on the “ weight rating “ tag/sticker can be on the ‘pin box’. Example: 18,000lbs X 20% = 3,600 lbs max! Every time I pick up a 5th wheel with the almost new fork truck a weight scale shows me how many lbs are on that pin box(within 5lbs). The 5ers loaded for a trip or full timers are always, did I say always? , over loaded on the pin box!!!
So why are gooseneck hitches made? If Lippert controls 90% of the market, why are companies like Brinkley saying a Gen-Y Gooseneck is compatible when Lippert says it’s not?
Remember, some RV manufacturers have their own engineering teams and send their own specifications. This also means that they are likely to warranty products under their own warranty.
Another great job. I made a longer comment on your other channel, so I’ll just say thanks for what you’re doing with your content in all your videos !!!
I can see where you can put a tremendous amount of tongue weight with a toy hauler by not putting anything in the back garage. To solve this problem with the toy haulers, why can't the manufacturers list a maximum tongue weight allowed? This should solve the problem of improper weight distribution and possible damage to the pin box area.
Just adds to what I’m thinking. Lippert provides the frame and guidelines. They have no idea what the RV manufacturer will do/or not do with it. I still think RV manufacturers are specifying cheaper frames and putting too much on them from the RV factory. More than what the frame is designed for.
That's pretty much exactly what they do. Give me a frame that's X feet long and can hold X amount of weight, oh, and make it as cheaply as possible. Lippert builds it. Then the coach builder goes "hey, why bother paying for a new design, lets just build several different lines of RV's off this same frame." And when it fails both the coach builder and Lippert can point fingers at each other leaving the consumer holding the bag.
I call crap. I’ve seen the same exact broken pieces of frame on my unit and another. When they sent me pictures of theirs I thought they took my pictures off line. Same Grand Design ST3740BH-R
I am so sick of the whole RV industry. They put out an inferior product across the board. Then people defend them and say “ imagine subjecting your house to an earthquake every time you take it down the road” BUILD IT BETTER, it can be built to take the punishment and for not that much more money! We’d gladly pay $5k more for a product that wasn’t a giant P.O.S. But, until we stop buying these sub standard products. They won’t change anything.
There are a lot of Dynamics connected to frame flex. For first-time buyers trying to buy the right RV the information can be overwhelming. To simplify things we like to ballpark figures. The one I have relied on is if a manufacturer is using pin - hitch weight to help equate the gross vehicle weight rating or axle ratings then they are squeaking out under ratings. We have 7,500 lb of axle rating on a GVRW of 5600. The frame is over rated as well.
That was my thought as well. As a frame manufacturer you either need to set the max limits or know exactly how much weight your designing for. Otherwise you could be put in a bad position. You can't truly build a safe frame without knowing the exact weight that's going to be applied to it.
If all parties involved can't have their engineers set down and come up with a workable system then none of the parties should be in business. We are talking a multi-million dollar industry here and all they do is point fingers like the Rats in DC do..
Very familiar with that flight path into South bend airport. Pretty cool flying over the greatest stadium in college football isn't it! Welcome to Michiana JD
Hi. I think this is very informative. I think your points about previous ownership and risk of taking on used products are great. Especially because these are not commercial grade vehicles/equipment. These are rolling sandboxes. And to make things worse, they are sold with cheap materials to achieve a price point to maximize profit and have two or more manufacturers. The end manufacturer (e.g., grand design) should be ultimately accountable. That is a very key point. Owens Corning built my sidewalls, and there was an issue. Thor had to resolve because they were the end manufacturer. My last point is that lippert should be smart and build only a super frame and not rely on the substructure for anything. They should build their frame to carry all the weight in almost any position and not rely on the walls or the roof. Have you ever heard of a class A diesel frame breaking because of water damage, delam, or cargo positioning. No. Freightliner or Spartan would not compromise the robustness of their chassis and rely on Thor or tiffin superstructures. The sidewalls and roof could be gone, and that chassis will still roll just fine with no cracks. Those huge fifth wheels are like cheap tinker toys riding on a shopping cart. They should be classified as park models…. Thx .
I think it falls more on RV manufactures because they're the one who build things on top of the frames. I understand, they need to be creative and come up with new floor plans and such but what RV manufactures do on top of the flames matters more and once it's purchased. And, people who haul often should know anything you tow have much greater wear and tear in faster rate from all the turning, bumps on the road, and lack of suspension support. Also, these RVs are built with fragile materials for the most part so, there will always be problems. Never ending story.
As long as those responsible for the design & construction of 5th wheels continue blaming the owner - these units will continue to be very expensive failures.
Are we talking a unibody here.. if the welds are not breaking I guess you could blame Grand for not making their campers flex without leaking air and water....😮
It's funny that route 70 thru Indiana is the worst section of route 70 in the country so you would think that the frames would be designed with a lot of extra strength just for Indiana 😅😂
Lippert needs to put their stamp of approval on these frames regardless of brand to final customer. If frame isnt sufficient for super structure added by rv manufacturers then reject building the frame. Why would Lippert hire an engineer if they don’t catch poor design?
That is like saying that the electrical company should inspect each use of their electrical grid in every house to make sure that the system is using the correct recommended specs in their electrical house frame. That is not a viable solution. Instead what they can do is to inform on the maximum recommended use cases and weight loads on their frames and let the RV engineers work within those defined limitations (like in my example - there are certain electrical loads that are recommended for each electrical system).
@@SoWeird4U Well, in most jurisdictions, there is an electrical inspection. And a foundation inspection. And a framing inspection. And a plumbing inspection. And ....
@@kmbbmj5857 And those inspections are NOT done by the electric company, or the concrete manufacturer, or the lumber company. That's the point. They are done by some regulatory/Gov't body, usually city or county, looking for compliance to code. The parts manufacturers don't and really can't, determine if people downstream from them are using their parts correctly or as designed.
If inspected by outside inspectors, Lippert would not build as spec’d from manufacture because they would be told that this does not comply to code… No Code accountability this will continue.
On a different Lippert issue. Our 2018Jayco 5th wheel had axle grease seal failure. The grease zerk fitting would allow grease to flow past the rear seal and into the brake drum causing brake failure. I called Lippert and explained that I followed the Jayco manual by slowly rotating the tire and slowly pumping grease into the bearings with a hand grease pump. All 4 rear grease seals failed on our trailer. They wanted photos of the unassembled parts which I supplied. Within a few days of sending in the photos I was contacted and told that 4 new drums and 4 new brake assemblies would be shipped to my address. This was great customer service by Lippert as my trailer was 3 years out of warranty.
While this conversation is much needed in this industry, it would be unreasonable to expect most listeners to comprehend all aspects of these terms and the ramifications of what they could mean to them, despite owning a product built on that frame. Nor can they be expected to, because of all the variables in applications. To understand the blending of issues here requires many years of experience and even then there is no control that once the component product leaves their facility what happens to it or how it is used. However, I observed that you were very kind in how your questions were posed and I think the two spokespeople did a fairly good job of simplifying the conversation while being truthful with what was being asked. They are to be commended for participating in this dialogue and for doing so without their Attorney present, so thank you. I did pick up on a couple terms which traditionally have been used to define more clearly the design limitations for use of their products thereby setting the parameters of responsibility, or, as an attempt to lay the foundation for heading off the potential for any future criticisms. It wasn't designed for that, or, it's not our responsibility. That key was use of the term, "Industry Standard". People outside your industry may not have a clue what that means. And even if they did understand it's meaning they are even more unlikely to comprehend the ramifications as a component supplier to a finished product. A few years ago my wife and I had a home built. It was designed by a Professional whom I knew, personally. We selected the best home builder we knew and had toured several homes he had built previously and often visited him and his family at their own homes. However, I was a bit surprised to realize that the Contractor did very little actual building and instead, he relied on a collection of individual reputable sub trades and monitored their work. But it was his company brand and his reputation in the industry that were at stake. So his liability was limited by time as well as cooperation from the subtrades. The industry had changed substantially from what I had expected over time. And even if that information had been provided to me prior to purchase, it would not have changed my decision to use his company b/c I didn't know the ramifications of his building methods, but he did .... and I didn't purchase from the subtrades .... I had purchased from him b/c I trusted him, and it was his responsibility to make it work to meet my expectations. I was his customer. With that same mindset it normally would not help for the purchaser of camper or trailer or or gooseneck trailer or semi trailer to know the design factor/factor of safety in the frame design to make his purchasing decision, but they are being asked to trust that the OEM brand that they are purchasing and/or the Dealer does know that info and could satisfy the expectations, when and if asked. Another caution for me is apparent lack of oversight concern to ensure that each frame is used eaxctly to the design specifications and no other. We know that should a seemingly small deviation from the original design be made after leaving your facilities it could represent a huge change in the acceptability of the frame. For eg. adding 2' length will change the entire dynamic loading and the way the frame was intended to work. Even if a customer contract provides indemnity, there is still a professional responsibility to ensure that it is appropriate for being used as originally intended, designed and applied. More seriously, some states have a practise of completing a thorough mechanical and design analysis of certain vehicles following an accident. Should mechanical components be found to be malfunctionin, installed incorrectly, or not be functioning consistent with original manufacturer's specs, or manufacturer's specs appear to not meet industry standards, the state is known to place the entire blame on that vehicle, on its Manufacturer and on the component supplier. In one such instance the axle supplier was shown to have installed some of the brakes contrary to recommended standards and although the brakes were working just fine at the time of accident, and the actions of the operator were in no way responsible for the accident, the litigation began which resulted in putting the axle manufacturer out of business. Even if everything is done correctly and these issues sound incidental or of no real value ..... until something happens which requires those decisions to be substantiated. The people who take it the hardest when things go wrong are the Engineering Dept., even if it's not their fault. Trailer manufactures are always fighting 2 insideous enemies.... weight and cost. The Engineer, referencing his frame design, said that to do otherwise would increase the weight and therefore require other components and tow vehicle. I believe that. This implies that they are close to the limits of component ratings. To get any heavier could require bigger axle capacities with air brake system, heavier suspension capacity, bigger tires with increased load capacity and a compatible tow vehicle with air system, probably referring to a class 8 truck/tractor. Again I would want to confirm that choices affecting the weight and the cost price are a reasonable trade off based on risk vs reward for individual applications. Every vehicle requires a plate or decal to identify its VIN, Tare Weight, Gross Vehicle Weight (GVW) tire size and air pressure, date manufactured, and states that the vehicle is manufactured in compliance with all Federal Laws in effect at date of manufacture. That is a Federal requirement of all recognized and approved manufacturers and identifies them on the compliance plate, Lastly I want to state that I have never been able to understand how something with the integral characteristic and ability to move, bend, deflect or flex can be attached, and derive some of it's yield strength, from materials that do not move, bend, deflect or flex, and expect it not to break. Add poor quality trades to that scenario and the results are exponentially compounded. Choice of materials add to weight and cost considerations for which there is no easy solution. But there is no excuse for the rampant poor quality of workmanship that has become commonplace in the RV industry in the past few years.IMO. And worse still is the manner in which many of the owners of these unacceptable products are being treated. It sure makes the good ones stand out at any price.! Disclaimer - Comments are my own opinion and not intended to slander or disparage any individual, group or company. And not intended to sell or to discourage or restrict anyone else from making a purchase of their own chosing.
These companies (like politicians) prefer pointing fingers at each other and dodging the issue, if you can't have engineers from all parties involved set down and come up with workable guidelines then none of them should be in the business of sending their work down the highway.
Perhaps...but perhaps not. The overlying question here is "Why do welds break?" One reason, of course, is that the weld is bad, but the vast majority of these come down to an error made by whoever was on the opposite end of the stick, gun, or torch. The occurence of bad welds is minimized by qualified welding inspectors, which one would hope Lippert employs.. Another reason welds fail is that forces were applied against it that the weld simply could not handle, no matter how good it was. Whether it is a building, a car, or an RV, those forces are going to win and that weld (and likely other elements of the structure or vehicle) are going to lose. Always.
I thought the welds were holding. It was the thin metal itself, was tearing...that would be due to: - too thin of material - not enough supporting brackets (gussets) - no 'bends' added in to make things stronger
When I purchased my Fifth Wheel, my RV sales person made it a point to inform me that Lippert only approved the Reese Goosebox, since I indicated I wanted to go the goosebox route. I purchased the recommended Reese Goosebox and have been very pleased with it. I have a camera in my truck bed and I can see the Goosebox moving up and down plus forward and backward as I drive down the road. I'm a mechanical engineer and it seems this reduces the impact forces that would lead to fatigue failure in the frame. On the negative side, the engineering manager made it a point if you increase the length of the pin box, it increases the lever arm, which increases the torque on the frame attachment point. This increased torque will lessen the fatigue life considerably. I noticed he didn't make any physical affirmation (like a head nod) of your comment that you have a "Lippert Approved" Reese Goosebox. Since the Reese Goosebox is longer in the downward direction to reach into the truck bed, it has a large increase in the lever arm compared to a traditional fifth wheel pin box. JD, can you get Lippert to give a more obvious thumb up on approving the Reese Goosebox? BTW, I have no plans to change from the Reese Goosebox. It's great to have my whole truckbed free when I arrive at the campsite or home. Note that I have a 34ft, 12,000 lb fifth wheel. It seems the larger and heavier fifth wheels are more likely subject to the frame failures.
Thanks for doing this interview with Lippord. I think that in many of these cases, it is an owner issue, not the manufacturer. Looking forward to seeing the rest of your videos.
The big question is this: After the interview(s) were complete, did Lippert require you to provide them the video for approval/editing PRIOR to you releasing it on your channel? As many have pointed out, the Engineer seems willing to answer the question but the Customer Service VP is talking around the answer and trying her best to not directly answer the questions.
Please read this. If you feel that your frame is experiencing something outside what's being described here YOU SHOULD absolutely reach out to Lippert, the RV manufacturer, and any other resource you think might be able to help you isolate and possibly repair the problem. The purpose of these videos was not to focus blaming anyone area, but to express what typically is happening when you see the type of movement and flex and most people are seeing. People getting upset at my interview need to understand how questions must be asked in this type of a format to get an answer at all. All the questions were questions that either I came up with or were submitted from my viewers. I sincerely apologize if anyone feels that I was soft or not digging deep enough. I was impressed that they were at least willing to have a conversation about this. I don't think there's any way to make everyone happy here, my goal was to provide a valuable amount of information to at least help identify what one of the issues may be as a starting point towards solving it. Everyone situation will be different. Again, if you feel that Lippert is at fault or if you would simply like to tour their facilities and see how they make their product, you should reach out to them.
Lippert’s facility is awesome. However, something is causing these failures.
Seems to behoove them to make efforts to determine what is causing the failure.
GD really needs to take the lead in determining just what is needed.
@@stevemaloney7903 look at this video at the 4:03 mark to see the exact issue that many owners are experiencing that leads to the detachment issue which ultimately leads to the frame over flexing. Missing LOTS of bolts exactly where Lippert discussed .
th-cam.com/video/ctQ4K5ZoEik/w-d-xo.htmlsi=PWJ_lVuw5Dv1Yr_4
@@BTBRVReviews
Wow. GD needs to step up and take responsibility and get it right.
It’s CHEAP STEELE FROM CHINA
Trust the Engineer! First thing I noticed was the body language of both the VP and Engineer. The Engineer was straight forward and ready to provide knowledgable answers. BRAVO! The VP however had here head tilted as if to say why am I hear, this is not something she wanted to be doing. Just my simple observation. LIPPERT is to be applauded for allowing this interview and thank you for presenting this. Looking forward to part two.
Plus her hands are in hide mode , engineer has basket mode hands so tell us more
This is all a staged PR stunt…
I was thinking the same thing! she looks like she wants to say The frame flex is not our problem I dont know why i have to explain myself!!!
They are both VPs.
Engineers?
Remember Engineers built the titanic
Amateurs built the Ark
This is Lippert's video deposition to distance themselves from Grand Design. All it takes at this point in the saga, just one catastrophic failure on the road, and all these companies will be sued for negligence. Grand Design's response to some customers is putting the Company in a bad light and Lippert is getting in front of this, as they should. I do not believe this is Lippert's problem. Excellent job getting access to these folks at Lippert and look forward to part 2.
Agree 100%
They knew the questions in advance.. you may think I'm not the right person to have done this interview, but you must also know that when dealing with a major corporation, even having a remote chance to talk with senior executives about a touchy subject like this is virtually impossible. I knew going into this that there would be some compromise in terms of my expectations and answers to questions. Any "TH-camr" thinking it would be any other way.....well, they never would have gotten a return call or past a administrative assistant. Plus, I plan on showing detailed frame manufacturering and testing...again, if I had gone in their "tempers flavored", I would have never gained access to. These are things people want to see AND know more about. Hope this helps you understand my reasoning.
Call it what it really is.... frame failure
Grand Design has some explaining to do! It’s on them! Nothing good comes from either ignoring this issue or trying to put a bandage on it! People’s lives are being put in danger! It’s the same ole story of putting profits over people!
@@Bromil 100% they try to make these frames as cheap as they can so that there profit margin is huge!! then try to blame it on the consumer! I heard one guy from Lippert say that these rigs are not built to tow across the country all the time!!! WHAT?!?! I didnt buy a 100k+ rig to sit at a trailer park!! Again trying to blame the consumer!! The more i watched this video the more pissed i got!! And exactly frame failure not frame flex!!! There is a video on you tube where a guy has a almost new 5th wheel toyhauler that he has towed a good bit and i believe he said his frame above the hitch was broken in 17 different places!! not flexing but broken!!!! absolutely unreal not wanting to call it what it is!!🤬😡🤬😡
Two words come to mind in listening to this relationship between Lippert and the OEM's: Boeing and Spirit Aero systems
Again, I think you let Lippert slide on some of their answers. “RV accepted practices” as in “there are no rules”. As shown on some youtube videos, Lippert has come out to an RV and added hundreds of pounds of steel reinforcement, gusset plats, crossmembers and so on to help the RV owner get back on the road. I would think that Lippert would WARN the RV manufacture that if they continue to exceed/abuse their original design specifications they would simply stop doing business with them. “Working in unison“ How can Lippert say working their working in unison when they don’t tell the RV manufacture this is acceptable and this isn’t acceptable.
I’m in no way trying to blame Lippert for all frame failures. But Lippert is in a position to tell RV manufacturer if you exceed this tolerance at this location you have voided our guarantee that this frame will meet your expectations.
Ask Lippert if have they ever taken a brand new fully loaded Grand Design Momentum apart to see if the RV manufacture has exceeded their provided specifications.
Again this issue is only in the RV industry as they are ungoverned by ANY governmental agency.
Pls ask if the welders at Lippert are AWS certified.
I agree 100%. I am a certified weld inspector with AWS, and if they do not have certified welding procedures and processes along with welder’s certified in those procedures, you do not know what kind of weld you are getting.
The best welder in the world cannot fix material that's too thin to support the weight. But to agree with you, should be union trades workers with welding certificates and training.
You absolutely nailed it
They knew the questions in advance.. you may think I'm not the right person to have done this interview, but you must also know that when dealing with a major corporation, even having a remote chance to talk with senior executives about a touchy subject like this is virtually impossible. I knew going into this that there would be some compromise in terms of my expectations and answers to questions. Any "TH-camr" thinking it would be any other way.....well, they never would have gotten a return call or past a administrative assistant. Plus, I plan on showing detailed frame manufacturering and testing...again, if I had gone in their "tempers flavored", I would have never gained access to. These are things people want to see AND know more about. Hope this helps you understand my reasoning.
I agree. Every building I built with columns and Moment Frames are welded by a certified welder and X-ray every weld and if not up to standard then it is ground out and re-welded till it passes. I bet the welders at Lippert are not all certified and or welds tested.@@kentrumm1385
That body language says it all, before conversation even starts.
Totally agree, she did not want to be there.
Exactly what I thought within 2 seconds of seeing her.
I worked for her @ Monaco Coach...she hasn't changed...SMH
I thought it was just me, but yeah... her body language is telling. Tilted head, crossed legs and hands denotes a defensive stance. And was it just the lense used, but why is her hands larger than her head?
Totally agree! As soon as she tilted her head, it showed indifference and an uncaring attitude towards people complaining about her company. Crossing her legs and fingers indicate a defensive posture.
Thanks to Lippert for even allowing you to visit and ask questions.
I'll bet they only agreed to meet an allowed the filming AFTER he share the questions ahead of time. All self protected BS.
They have such nice answers. They made me feel so uneasy about the frame problem.
Well done. People need to understand the Lippert personal are not used to or trained in doing an interview like politicians. I support there answers and respect Lippert for allowing this.
In a previous job I had to visit the Bluebird school bus plant in Georgia to observe the manufacturing process. They manufacture all of their own school bus frames and the highly skilled workers showed me the jigs they used, the quality of the steel, parts, etc. Then I saw the bus assembly. I can tell you to rest assured that our school children are riding in the absolute strongest and best built buses in the world. Unbelievable quality! If they built trailer frames there would never be an issue-guaranteed!
I had feared it would go this way... While I applaud you JD for wanting to take this subject head on - please stop adding your two cents to explain their answers or lead them on to a desired conclusion. Not sure if it is true but definitely looks and feels like you provided the questions before hand. I must ask you - while in Elkhart are YOU going to sit down with let's say Grand Design or Alliance or anyone of the leading RV manufacturers?
What he was doing is called “leading the witness”.
Interesting…..I will reserve comments until the series is completed. Thanks JD!
I think that's at least half a dozen words
I think you are doing the best job on this issue, level headed approach talking to the engineering staff and digging down on standards and procedures .looking forward to the next episode....thanks p.s. dude got on a plane for this! OMG
Lawyer mouth certainly shuts down the engineer quickly when he may well throw a manufacturer under the bus. She's a master at not answering a question.
They knew the questions in advance.. you may think I'm not the right person to have done this interview, but you must also know that when dealing with a major corporation, even having a remote chance to talk with senior executives about a touchy subject like this is virtually impossible. I knew going into this that there would be some compromise in terms of my expectations and answers to questions. Any "TH-camr" thinking it would be any other way.....well, they never would have gotten a return call or past a administrative assistant. Plus, I plan on showing detailed frame manufacturering and testing...again, if I had gone in their "tempers flavored", I would have never gained access to. These are things people want to see AND know more about. Hope this helps you understand my reasoning.
Great to know that! As always an excellent interview !
That's why she "heads up" the Service Team!!
Questions in advance is NOT proper journalistic technique.
Wow you gave them the questions ahead?😂😂😂😂 Not a real interview
As the first to discover a LIPPERT problem, leaving out braces, which led to an NHTSA recall eventually, I have concluded that
1 Lippert welds are just one step better than what are called chewing gum welds in the industry.
2 Lippert never met a triangle they liked
3 Lippert thinks that welding into the web of an I beam is just fine.
4 Lippert or more correctly LCI makes or has made a whole line of products that are prone to Infant Mortality, mid life failure and particularly early end of life.
5 Lippert blames the manufacturer for frame "design".
It took about 2000 pounds of steel to fix my frame both in the axle area as well as the tongue.
Does anyone at Lippert look at the normal frame flex as regards fatigue life? And is that flex more than the compliance of the adjoining structure can endure? Maybe then need someone with real engineering training to quiz them.
Are Any of their employees Welders to TRADE STANDARDS in UK coded welder
Jd thanks for taking the time to interview them. But watching both part 1 & 2 coming from my own engineering background, having been in the spotlight myself, they side stepped the questions as fast as they could, granted they have to on this type of video, so I get that. I didn’t really expect the video to admit to anything at all. This it’s not just a Lippert problem, it stretches across the rv industry that items need to improve especially when it’s a structural issue. And yes our rv has had an issue fixed under warranty. There’s a lot of engineering that goes into ever part of it but their factors of safety and quality levels need drastic improvement. Hopefully this helps with motivation to improve.
Thank you JD.
During my 26 years (so far) in the auto industry I have witness and worked on this kind of situation where a supplier supplies part of a system that fails and now when the system fails there is this gray area on who is at fault, the OEM or the tier 1 supplier.
For chassis that are designed by the OEM, Lippert will never be at fault provided they execute the chassis as per OEM drawings and specifications but in the cases they are hired by the OEMs not only to provide a chassis but to design it, they may be at fault if their team missed something, otherwise, the failure may occur because the OEM didn't inform the right set of data (for example informed a weight that is lower than the real weight, etc).
It would be interesting to know if Grand Design designs their own chassis or if they hire Lippert to do that work.
Anyway, Grand Design Momentums seems to be light , for the size and mission (toy hauler), when compared with a true full time rig like DRV.
That may indicate that Momentums are not really designed for full time living....
Are there any failures on DRVs?
DRV has a total different frame design, it is close to indestructible. I even have a golf cart trailer attached to the rear of the frame. I’ve never noticed any kind of frame flex wobble, and there are definitely no cracks or broken welds anywhere. It is built similar to a frame on top of another frame. They’re very impressive if you don’t believe me, look into it for yourself.
As a project engineer i would like to thank JD for this great piece of reporting/journalism first. Secondly, there are a few things in the interview that stood out to me and a few that the viewers have commented here:
1) 9:40 She said that they have no way to calculate the different structures that RV manufacturers put on the frame. That`s partly true. Lippert can test and calculate the maximum load on each point of the frame (front, middle, back) and publish those recommended loads to the RV manufacturer in order to avoid excessive load on a particular part that would cause the frame to fail or degrade faster than normal. It is being done in the automotive industry internally (as the manufacturer is usually the one that builds the frame/chassis and the body on top). So, Lippert don't have to calculate what is being put on their frame - only the maximum allowed stress on each frame point, similar to max haul weight figure on a truck (Which is the max weight the truck frame can hold when you load it at a certain point).
2) There should be a guide/engineering spec sheet that informs the manufacturer the recommended weight distribution on the frame. As it is not only the weight load on a particular part of the chassis but also how the overall weight is distributed along the chassis points. There might be a certain weight at the front that would cause harm if put directly load at that point and there could be overall percentage of weight distribution that is recommended to uphold when building the body (ex: up to 20% GVWR to the front, 50% GVWR in the middle and up to 30% in the rear).
3) 15:00 The discussion about approved pin boxes. That`s information that the customers should know and RV dealers should know also.
When dealerships agree on pinbox replacement at their centers, they should have the information and the capability to measure and see if the "new" pinbox or gooseneck meets the specification of that particular RV. In that case, they should have clear instructions on how to handle these cases - perhaps call Lippert to confirm the particular model of the new pinbox/gooseneck can withstand that particular chassis specs - perhaps use an online database with the exact length, weight, structure of the king pin to ensure it is within the "safe" specs. There are many ways that a procedure can be applied between Lippert and the manufacturers and the dealerships to ensure that they know what to do and where to get the required information before conducting "modifications" on an RV.
Also they might consider extending the base of the kingpin for larger RV`s (above a certain GVWR) to cover more points of contact with the front frame in order to provide extra stability during traveling and sudden forces that are applied between the truck and the pinbox and the frame.
🤯🤯 What in the hell did she say?!
The frame not moving at the same rate as the wall attached to it!!?? 🤯🤯
I wouldn’t give you $5.00 for one of those behemoth rolling garbage wagons out of Elkhart!
I worked in that sh*those town on that overpriced oversized GARBAGE, that’s why I’m building my own trailer. 💥💣😎
I really liked your prepared intro. Being concise like that was very informative.
Main problem is certain companies use a 1/8th inch frame wall thickness when it should be 5/16 or 3/8th thickness m, but thatcuts into three profit margins
Well done Lippert and BTBR for the legwork to put this all together! Very impressive. The VP and Engineer did an excellent job and in spite of being a full timer for a number of years and "knowledgable", I learned a lot. These are the people and this is the company that I wish was making entire RV's.
You've always been a good person with solid integrity. We've loved your videos for many years! Thank you for making this video 🙂
Very informative video. A couple of years ago, you posted a video on switching from a fifth wheel kingpin to a gooseball hitch. I reached out to Lippert to see if a certain gooseball hitch would work on my Avalanche. They were very quick to give their blessings on the one I had chosen and were very helpful. So to anyone thinking of changing their fifth wheel hitch, Lippert is more than happy to assist and are quick with answers.
This is fantastic! Right to the source with some really good questions. Looking forward to the rest of this mini-series.
If you want to see what a REAL LIPPERT FRAME looks like on a Frand Design Momentum, WE took ours apart last week & just posted the video of the 5th grade welding job lippert did to send out. However, grand design, Montana, & Alliance are at fault ALSO for seeing the 5th grade welding job yet still built on it.
I think someone shared a video of your setup. The gusset, were they installed aftermarket? I'm only asking because I didn't see those on the frames I saw at Lippert. Also, it looks like it may be sidewall detachment, did you notice thr lag bolts not holding? Let's chat if you want.
This was fantastic!
Hats off to companies that will talk to a youtube channel about a community hot topic about their product. Especially a company that is not selling a direct to consumer product.
Some commenters hate on so many aspects and act like this should have been a court room grilling😂
Karen's head tilt and facial expression clearly says, " I don't want to be here".
Good job with the questions and just letting them talk and repeat the answers their lawyers gave them. This isn''t the format to challenge answers, but to investigate the answers they give. This should be a good interview series. Once question I would like to see asked is "are there load weight guidance for the upper deck? Or should the pin weight not exceed XXXXlbs? " I think this theory should be discussed for these heavier capacity trailers.
When you put the most weight you can on the lightest frame possible, then give it to general public.........
Look forward to part 2 and possibly part 3.
So, far I can only comment that the two Lippert executives were very careful to not lay the blade on themselves (of course) and two not lay the blame on a specific RV manufacture practice (opening them to a defamation lawsuit). I expected nothing more or less.
They tried.
What are industry accepted practices? Is there any involvement of NTSB or NHTSA in the safety proofing of the build? Is there any road testing performed by the companies? We all should be well aware that theory and reality can be very different. Thanks JD for delving into the issue!
This is a great CYA video for Lippert!
Has anyone asked about the welding or quality of the employees welding are the certified or trained in welding? If so by whom?
We were lucky and didn't have frame failure we had frame flex. We have had this "flex" twice now (2 different RV's) They were both Keystone products and they covered the issue under warranty without issue. Once they took our wall apart, we could see that the welds in the wall (wall studs) were very poor. The welder stated that he has a hard time repairing because of the metal being so thin on the wall studs. So, we think that Lippert does hold some of the responsibility, but we need to look at the "rest" of the components. If the walls are part of the structure, then they need to be built to a better standard as well. Thanks for the video!
I thought Lippert didn't build the walls...just the trailer 'platform. 🤔
@@billbillinger2491 JD’s video helped me to understand our specific problem. If the walls are part of the structure then the welds and quality of the metal in the wall studs on our was severely lacking. We have photos of some terrible welds. One of us worked in Quality Assurance in a machine shop and those would never be allowed out the door. Just our opinion
Wall studs are put in by the rv manufacturer not lippert. Weld joints and cracked rails would fall on lippert.
Did any of the welds actually fail?
@@gcc8584 The aluminum ones in the wall did but not on the frame itself.
I just thought of one thing of fault that no one has mentioned that we see everywhere. You see everywhere from the cheapened door latches to the garbage suspensions. Corporate bean counters. They're responsible for figuring things out like how to cheapen something up with an acceptable failure under warranty rate to overall save the company even more in money to increase profits. See it in the automotive industry all the time, planned obsolesce. Wouldn't be surprised if that was the grand design of a manufacturer. Get a reputation of quality, then your products last to long and your customers are not rebuying a new one in your metrics time frame, so you start to make it to where it starts having failures in a time frame in which your research tells you people expect failures to happen. How sad our society has become to do this with every product.
There is an industry term for this: "QUALITY FADE'.
Great job JD! I understand that you have to be very careful in how you handle their answers.
As mentioned in earlier comments the VP was there only to protect Lippert ! It was obvious by the way she was answering tooo many questions for the Engineer.
In the early days of slide-outs very few manufactures, both frame and superstructure ever realized that when they cut a hole in the wall it lost most of its strength, most never did! This caused leaks, cracks in the walls and ceilings and frame damage.
I was selling Airstream's when they attempted their first slide out, not having one was killing their sales! When we attended the Louisville show they had one setup for display, we ordered two for our spring show in Austin TX.
When we were planning the setup for the show Airstream informed us the slide out floor plan would not be available, Yada Yada Yada!
I had known the dealer rep for years, when he arrived in Austin he told me on the model in the Louisville show, the slide out was setting on it's own stand! They went in at night and setup the trailer while no one else was there, set the slide next to the trailer on its own stand! Ihad noticed the solid curtain around the bottom so no one could see???
After they cut out the wall for the slide they could not find a way to maintain the integrity of the aircraft type frame that makes the Airstream what they are!
First off, great video JD. I always enjoy your content. But at the end of the day, RV component and manufacturers need actual REGULATION! There needs to be ACTUAL ACCOUNTABILITY in the RV industry. The fact that there is very little consumer protection is a credit to the lobby of Lippert, Moryde, Grand Design, Keystone, Winebego, etc.
Couldnt agree more, the RV industry from the trailer manufactures/dealers and Suppliers take little responsibility in the quality of these products.
Regulation and Accountability.
I just kept thinking, “your honor, leading the witness”. I get they build/design things to keep cost and weight down. But maybe they need to downsize these RV’s so the design can be improved. This would mean you’d need a larger tow vehicle for smaller RV’s. But after spending 23 years in automotive testing these RV’s are woefully under designed. Cars cost so much because they are over engineered for scenarios that they may never encounter. I think the RV industry needs to follow the auto industry and learn a few things. I’d rather pay more for a quality RV, vs a cheap RV that fails long before it should.
Yup, been my thoughts exactly too! 👍🍻
When does the GD interview start?
Excellent job. I appreciate the question on swapping to a gooseneck. It makes sense that the stresses would be different.
Just off the image you have shown, that’s not the frame people are complaining about. Try the Grand Design Momentum frame.
That's a Rhinobox frame. My Momentum has that frame.
@@Itsa_MeaThx for letting me know
This is why we have never owned a travel trailer or 5th wheel. Class A on Freightliner chassis never had an issue. That said, Lippert was passing along double speak. If Lippert really wanted to help, they would have spec'd out load limits at different points of the frame, overhang allowances and so on.
This really sounds like a problem with the steel, weld, not holding cracks and brakes in different areas. The steel supplier will come out in the wash sooner or later.
I’ll reserve judgement until the series is done but nothing in this video (other than the aftermarket pin box question) really tells us what’s going on with these frames.
I’d really love to hear a Lippert exec explain why they sell products like the cargo tray that they sent a tech to weld onto your personal 5th wheel that they then say will void the warranty on my frame if I install it. If they are selling products that are intended to be attached to the frame of an RV there should be a way then to install that product without voiding the warranty on that frame.
I’ve been around heavy construction and watched the frames of tractor trailers flex with loading equipment and supplies. I’ve built multi level buildings. I was in sheet metal. HVAC and roofing. Metal flexes under loads. Metal grows and shrinks on roofs under the sun. Temperature. These super structured RVs are getting huge. I’d expect movement and tolerances. I’m sure there are tolerances for metal flex in building yachts. The bigger you get the bigger your maintenance is to keep equipment working. I don’t think the average public thinks steel moves.
Very comprehensive part one! So far it sounds like there are too many factors to take into account, and it really depends on each situation whether the issue is with the RV manufacturer or the end user has done something that would cause the issue.
Our 2019 unit, 26ft long conventional travel trailer had tons of frame flex. We would park, chock and level. Then wedges between tandem axles for stability. Then we'd put 4 corner jacks down to just snug and send out the slide. After that i'd have to re-balance the corner jacks as it would lean (as expected). Later in the same day, or for sure the next morning, the door would not clse or open without a ton of force. Then I spent considerable time every camping trip balancing the stabilizing legs to 'tune the door. Several times every trip.
You started with an airplane flight. Would you ever consider flying on an aircraft where Lippert did the engineering of the airframe? I doubt it very much. Lippert has had various frame issues in their products for a long time. I remember coming across them 10 years ago when I was considering a new travel trailer. A bit of research on the model I was considering I found numerous accounts of frame cracking on ones with Lippert frames. I won't go near a product from Lippert based on that and the newer information just reinforces my viewpoint.
If an airplane had that same "extremely low" failure rate, no one would fly. Consider the talk swirling around the 737 right now.
I agree with that statement. But I also know the R.V. manufacturer controls the money and buying power. They probably completely dictate to Lippert exactly what they desire, and those decisions are all based on GREED not on testing or building the safest or most durable product. The manufacturer wants lower cost per unit, less weight for a better towing factor and the minimalist design they can get by with as the average R.V. gets towed very few miles in their lifespan and sits in a storage lot or next to someone's house and typically fails from sun damage and water intrusion first.
Great information about pin box changes.
I think people also dont think about the sheer forces roads can have on the over all units. Just because tires can drive 75mph doesn’t mean you should. Imagine the forces when you travel down the road and hit the bad dips and bumps at 70-75 verses 55-65. You feel it in your body, the truck and the trailer. Now imagine a 14k toy hauler and a 1000lb tow past the rear axles and you repeatedly hits potholes, dips, bumps that make you wonder if your bike rack is still there. All of those stresses people rarely think about, can prematurely wear a frame much faster.
15-20 years ago we didn’t drive that fast. These new mini diesels are pushing a 1000lbs of torque so now we load heavier, drive faster and of course things will wear quicker. People in all honesty are not caring much about load distribution and safe towing technique.
It’s load up, hitch up and go. And haul ass at 70 till you get there on americas prime conditions roads.
Ill say it since others wont, some times its OE. Maybe not all the time, but people never wanna admit they are at fault and maybe dont know what they are doing.
But I dont trust the rv manufacturers much. I trust the frame manufacturers more.
We *never* tow faster than 55 MPH and anyone who does IMHO is just an accident waiting to happen. Life is all about the journey as in *NOT* the destination. Where is the fire that people tow all that weight at such excessive speeds?
Gooood interview JD!!! We now have some more insight on the frame from their point of view, which added some clarity. Can’t wait for the next one!!!
I was hoping you guys would get up and go look at the frame behind them and explain some of what was discussed, but I’m sure that’ll be in the next one.
Oh, I would’ve loved to see where you’d put the coffee pot on that frame😂😂
👍😃🍻☕️
First of all, congrats on getting a manufacture on record. I would like to have the professionals you were talking to answering the questions in a deeper logical manner, instead their answers were brief, short and general. YOU however added YOUR comments, I watched this video to hear their side of this very sad story not your take on it. You would be well served to watch professional interviewers on how to pry information their guest. It is my fault my expectations were set as high as your reviews of RV's from your channel your accepting these responses is perhaps a fear of harming your reputation with a major manufacturer, true or not that is what it appears. I hope you toughen up your desire for answers in the following videos, you owe your audience that much.
Nicely done. There are so many variables that it’s difficult to find the “smoking gun.”
But a Lippert decision maker told me that “we’re in the business of selling steel - why would we ever want to sell less steel?”
Nice harborfraight jack stands
Great interview JD! Seems to me that the frame manufacturers need to have a stronger influence on how the super structures are built on their frames to ensure there isn’t a compromise. Seems as if the RV manufacturer and the frame manufacturer have a disconnect in communication and it’s causing possible over loads to the frames and the frames aren’t being built onto in the way they’re designed to be.
Thankfully, I no longer own an RV but I find this situation to be very interesting.
RV'S need to be regulated. Bottom line.
This such a bullshit video! It is quite obvious that all of these questions were pre approved by both parties prior to this recording. A completely staged interview.
Its basic physics, a strong foundation is required for any build, whether its a house or a RV. What truely needs to happen is a Clas Action Law Suit against Lippert, all RV Mfg, Dealerships. They all have become very wealthy selling this trash and now they all need to be held accountable.
His comment about changing the pin box to one that is longer, being detrimental to structural integrity is spot on. A longer pin box changes the geometry and can increase the leverage and resultant strain on the steel structure. These 5th wheel frames are not built like the frame on a tractor trailer. The steel isn't as thick and the pin box being placed way out in front of the frame is just asking for problems. Continuous stressing causes steel flexing, and will break the welds and in some cases actually crack the steel member. There are many TH-cam videos showing 'frame flex' which is actually a broken frame. In several of these videos, the original pin box was changed to one that is several inches longer.
Rose are red violets are blue.
I choose a tent and so will you.
Happy camping
Problem with most 5th wheels is that they are already close to weight capacity when empty
My opinion coming from a construction background and dealing with engineers over the years tells me that the engineers are doing the minimum required sizes to make the frames affordable. It is all about the money and bottom line. To me the sidewalls should not have to help out with the frame flex. The frame which is the foundation of the rig should support the rig on its own. The way the aluminum is welded on the two sides so they have a flat surface to attach the walls interior and exterior, how can that give strength to the frame from flexing? Aluminum flexing and stress normally breaks right at the edge of the weld. Saw that in the bicycle industry when they were using aluminum building BMX and Mountain Bikes. Frame stress from flex would break the frame at the weld. My opinion is to build a frame strong enough to handle the load without flexing to the point of breaking. I feel the same way with the way they allow the axles to be rated lower than the entire GVW as they count the pin weight or tongue to carry part of the load. Never have liked that. My thought is when that rig goes around a corner look at the weight put on that side of the axle and tires. I know some manufactures like Lockwood had upped the size of their axles on their trailers which is a better way to go. Hate to say it that it is money before safety and performance.
As an Rv Repairer for 20 years I have seen many frame failures on all brands across the industry. I’m in no way biased towards any brand (I don’t even own an Rv) I’ve had to do all repairs to help strengthen the front overshot including the chassis and the side wall structures. In my opinion (and first hand experience) any slide outs in the overshot take out a lot of strength in the sidewall and create a weak spot - filon always cracking and frames always breaking around these areas. The first noticeable issues are when the slide outs stop working correctly or at all. Like I said, I’ve seen this issue on a lot of manufacturers not just GD.
I don’t think Lippert is to blame completely, but I also think they should “put their foot down” on manufacturers that don’t use their products correctly.
I’ve seen this with a lot of other products that Lippert manufacturers alter to suit their desires, not so much the way the product was designed to be installed, take the in-wall slide for example.
My 2016 35'ft Forest River Columbus 295RL has the factory installed frame box and kingpin, nothing has been changed and yet I see that familiar side panel bowing from the upper deck to the lower deck around the landing gear. I've inspected it a couple of times and have yet to discover what caused it. I've checked for cracked or failing welds as well as for any distortion of the steel in the transition section from the upper to lower deck and so far nothing. What I'd like to see is stiffening in this area with thicker cross-members and gussets. Like yourself, I too have been contemplating removing the kingpin and installing the gooseneck hitch as that will eliminate the side to side flexing of the front frame structure. A lot of campgrounds are not level including the one I live in and a fifth wheel plate simply doesn't have enough side to side motion to counter uneven road surface whereas the gooseneck does not have this issue as it rides on a ball which the towing vehicle and the 5th wheel RV moves independently of each other. As I am a trucker of 39-years, I know that 5th wheel plates and kingpins on semi-trucks receive a lot of damage and wear and tear from normal use, where as 5th wheel RV's are light weight and not designed for side to side flexing forces. I do understand the engineer's statement about leverage however most of the damaged 5th wheel RV's I've seen on YT about broken/cracked frames have the factory frame boxes and kingpins. For me, once I am able to get my wagon hooked up to a truck and take the load off the landing gear, I'll be able to perform another inspection to see if I have a broken or cracked frame component. It's so unnerving to have to deal with this.
sorry Lippert, This is still going to roll back to you in my opinion. If someone can prove that it was known that these RV producers were allegedly producing over weight or out of spec RVs, it is going to be tough to stand on the sidelines and sagely say we are not responsible for this, in my opinion. Best practice is to engineer a design to 3 times the expected load, in any case.
Some of the RVs I have seen would not even pass a normal home framing inspection, and these things are rolling down crappy interstates and highways to get to campgrounds not sitting on a lot.
Some observations:
Are the Lippert welders certified to industry standards? Is there a regular weld inspection done? By an independent testing service?
Also, an unknown to this whole topic is in any instance, was the RV overloaded? People don't regularly weigh their unit to make sure they below the GVWR.
I would agree that the relationship between Lippert and the RV mfg. is a little fuzzy or curious. I get they don't want finger pointing going on, fine line.
Great job trying to get to the bottom of it.
I find it convenient when two manufacturers contribute to building a product that it’s always the other guys fault. My frame didn’t just flex. The metal was torn.
That's what I read was happening...that not so much that welds breaking, but metal pieces were tearing. That means the engineers designing specific trailer frames are not making them robust enough...which is surprising, because most engineers 'over engineer'.
...unless someone else is asking them to 'make it lighter', or 'thinner'.
After 40 years in RV repair, my experience is “owner ignorance “ when loading their RV. Yes! Very rarely a flaw occurs, however, 99.5% of the time the RV is OVERLOADED FORWARD OF THE AXLE !!!! I have customers stand toe to toe with me and argue that the RV is not overloaded ! Yet when the weight on the pin box is measured the silence is deafening . I have personally seen hundreds of 5ers a couple of lbs (100-300 lbs) overweight on the scales BUT were a couple of THOUSAND LBS overweight on the pin box. Remember this formula 15%-20%(max) of the weight described and printed on the “ weight rating “ tag/sticker can be on the ‘pin box’. Example: 18,000lbs X 20% = 3,600 lbs max! Every time I pick up a 5th wheel with the almost new fork truck a weight scale shows me how many lbs are on that pin box(within 5lbs). The 5ers loaded for a trip or full timers are always, did I say always? , over loaded on the pin box!!!
So why are gooseneck hitches made? If Lippert controls 90% of the market, why are companies like Brinkley saying a Gen-Y Gooseneck is compatible when Lippert says it’s not?
Remember, some RV manufacturers have their own engineering teams and send their own specifications. This also means that they are likely to warranty products under their own warranty.
I don't have a fifth wheel, but this controversy is interesting. It's like watching days of our lives.
Another great job. I made a longer comment on your other channel, so I’ll just say thanks for what you’re doing with your content in all your videos !!!
I can see where you can put a tremendous amount of tongue weight with a toy hauler by not putting anything in the back garage. To solve this problem with the toy haulers, why can't the manufacturers list a maximum tongue weight allowed? This should solve the problem of improper weight distribution and possible damage to the pin box area.
I have been saying this for months. Even contacted Lippert about it and they didn't understand my question. Just directed me to the 20% of GVWR.
Just adds to what I’m thinking. Lippert provides the frame and guidelines. They have no idea what the RV manufacturer will do/or not do with it.
I still think RV manufacturers are specifying cheaper frames and putting too much on them from the RV factory. More than what the frame is designed for.
That's pretty much exactly what they do. Give me a frame that's X feet long and can hold X amount of weight, oh, and make it as cheaply as possible. Lippert builds it. Then the coach builder goes "hey, why bother paying for a new design, lets just build several different lines of RV's off this same frame." And when it fails both the coach builder and Lippert can point fingers at each other leaving the consumer holding the bag.
Those hands r huge
,lol i cant unsee this now.
😳😳😳what up with those
I call crap. I’ve seen the same exact broken pieces of frame on my unit and another. When they sent me pictures of theirs I thought they took my pictures off line. Same Grand Design ST3740BH-R
All curable with less than 100 lbs of metal added to the thing..
I am so sick of the whole RV industry. They put out an inferior product across the board. Then people defend them and say “ imagine subjecting your house to an earthquake every time you take it down the road” BUILD IT BETTER, it can be built to take the punishment and for not that much more money! We’d gladly pay $5k more for a product that wasn’t a giant P.O.S. But, until we stop buying these sub standard products. They won’t change anything.
There are a lot of Dynamics connected to frame flex. For first-time buyers trying to buy the right RV the information can be overwhelming. To simplify things we like to ballpark figures. The one I have relied on is if a manufacturer is using pin - hitch weight to help equate the gross vehicle weight rating or axle ratings then they are squeaking out under ratings. We have 7,500 lb of axle rating on a GVRW of 5600. The frame is over rated as well.
If Lippert doesn’t know or understand the box the rv manufacturer puts on their frame how can they build the frame correctly?
That was my thought as well. As a frame manufacturer you either need to set the max limits or know exactly how much weight your designing for. Otherwise you could be put in a bad position. You can't truly build a safe frame without knowing the exact weight that's going to be applied to it.
If all parties involved can't have their engineers set down and come up with a workable system then none of the parties should be in business. We are talking a multi-million dollar industry here and all they do is point fingers like the Rats in DC do..
Very familiar with that flight path into South bend airport. Pretty cool flying over the greatest stadium in college football isn't it! Welcome to Michiana JD
As an RV tech my experience with LCI is they work with all involved to improve their products
Hi. I think this is very informative. I think your points about previous ownership and risk of taking on used products are great. Especially because these are not commercial grade vehicles/equipment. These are rolling sandboxes. And to make things worse, they are sold with cheap materials to achieve a price point to maximize profit and have two or more manufacturers. The end manufacturer (e.g., grand design) should be ultimately accountable. That is a very key point. Owens Corning built my sidewalls, and there was an issue. Thor had to resolve because they were the end manufacturer. My last point is that lippert should be smart and build only a super frame and not rely on the substructure for anything. They should build their frame to carry all the weight in almost any position and not rely on the walls or the roof. Have you ever heard of a class A diesel frame breaking because of water damage, delam, or cargo positioning. No. Freightliner or Spartan would not compromise the robustness of their chassis and rely on Thor or tiffin superstructures. The sidewalls and roof could be gone, and that chassis will still roll just fine with no cracks. Those huge fifth wheels are like cheap tinker toys riding on a shopping cart. They should be classified as park models…. Thx .
I think it falls more on RV manufactures because they're the one who build things on top of the frames. I understand, they need to be creative and come up with new floor plans and such but what RV manufactures do on top of the flames matters more and once it's purchased. And, people who haul often should know anything you tow have much greater wear and tear in faster rate from all the turning, bumps on the road, and lack of suspension support. Also, these RVs are built with fragile materials for the most part so, there will always be problems. Never ending story.
As long as those responsible for the design & construction of 5th wheels continue blaming the owner - these units will continue to be very expensive failures.
Are we talking a unibody here.. if the welds are not breaking I guess you could blame Grand for not making their campers flex without leaking air and water....😮
Really looking forward to part 2 .
It's funny that route 70 thru Indiana is the worst section of route 70 in the country so you would think that the frames would be designed with a lot of extra strength just for Indiana 😅😂
Thanks for addressing this issue in detail
Lippert needs to put their stamp of approval on these frames regardless of brand to final customer. If frame isnt sufficient for super structure added by rv manufacturers then reject building the frame. Why would Lippert hire an engineer if they don’t catch poor design?
That is like saying that the electrical company should inspect each use of their electrical grid in every house to make sure that the system is using the correct recommended specs in their electrical house frame. That is not a viable solution. Instead what they can do is to inform on the maximum recommended use cases and weight loads on their frames and let the RV engineers work within those defined limitations (like in my example - there are certain electrical loads that are recommended for each electrical system).
@@SoWeird4U Well, in most jurisdictions, there is an electrical inspection. And a foundation inspection. And a framing inspection. And a plumbing inspection. And ....
@@kmbbmj5857 And those inspections are NOT done by the electric company, or the concrete manufacturer, or the lumber company. That's the point. They are done by some regulatory/Gov't body, usually city or county, looking for compliance to code. The parts manufacturers don't and really can't, determine if people downstream from them are using their parts correctly or as designed.
If inspected by outside inspectors, Lippert would not build as spec’d from manufacture because they would be told that this does not comply to code… No Code accountability this will continue.
On a different Lippert issue. Our 2018Jayco 5th wheel had axle grease seal failure. The grease zerk fitting would allow grease to flow past the rear seal and into the brake drum causing brake failure. I called Lippert and explained that I followed the Jayco manual by slowly rotating the tire and slowly pumping grease into the bearings with a hand grease pump. All 4 rear grease seals failed on our trailer. They wanted photos of the unassembled parts which I supplied. Within a few days of sending in the photos I was contacted and told that 4 new drums and 4 new brake assemblies would be shipped to my address. This was great customer service by Lippert as my trailer was 3 years out of warranty.
I find it interesting that Lippert can claim the 2x2" wood studded walls of these frail things are part of the structural integrity!!
Not sure ive seen 2x2 wood studded walls in any 40ft+ full profile fifth wheels.
You obviously have no idea what you are talking about or how full profile RVs are built. Lol
I'm glad all my RVs are from the 80s.
.....also sprung for the MORryde suspension to reduce frame shocks as well.
It tows like a dream, but time will tell.
While this conversation is much needed in this industry, it would be unreasonable to expect most listeners to comprehend all aspects of these terms and the ramifications of what they could mean to them, despite owning a product built on that frame. Nor can they be expected to, because of all the variables in applications. To understand the blending of issues here requires many years of experience and even then there is no control that once the component product leaves their facility what happens to it or how it is used. However, I observed that you were very kind in how your questions were posed and I think the two spokespeople did a fairly good job of simplifying the conversation while being truthful with what was being asked. They are to be commended for participating in this dialogue and for doing so without their Attorney present, so thank you.
I did pick up on a couple terms which traditionally have been used to define more clearly the design limitations for use of their products thereby setting the parameters of responsibility, or, as an attempt to lay the foundation for heading off the potential for any future criticisms. It wasn't designed for that, or, it's not our responsibility. That key was use of the term, "Industry Standard". People outside your industry may not have a clue what that means. And even if they did understand it's meaning they are even more unlikely to comprehend the ramifications as a component supplier to a finished product. A few years ago my wife and I had a home built. It was designed by a Professional whom I knew, personally. We selected the best home builder we knew and had toured several homes he had built previously and often visited him and his family at their own homes. However, I was a bit surprised to realize that the Contractor did very little actual building and instead, he relied on a collection of individual reputable sub trades and monitored their work. But it was his company brand and his reputation in the industry that were at stake. So his liability was limited by time as well as cooperation from the subtrades. The industry had changed substantially from what I had expected over time. And even if that information had been provided to me prior to purchase, it would not have changed my decision to use his company b/c I didn't know the ramifications of his building methods, but he did .... and I didn't purchase from the subtrades .... I had purchased from him b/c I trusted him, and it was his responsibility to make it work to meet my expectations. I was his customer. With that same mindset it normally would not help for the purchaser of camper or trailer or or gooseneck trailer or semi trailer to know the design factor/factor of safety in the frame design to make his purchasing decision, but they are being asked to trust that the OEM brand that they are purchasing and/or the Dealer does know that info and could satisfy the expectations, when and if asked.
Another caution for me is apparent lack of oversight concern to ensure that each frame is used eaxctly to the design specifications and no other. We know that should a seemingly small deviation from the original design be made after leaving your facilities it could represent a huge change in the acceptability of the frame. For eg. adding 2' length will change the entire dynamic loading and the way the frame was intended to work. Even if a customer contract provides indemnity, there is still a professional responsibility to ensure that it is appropriate for being used as originally intended, designed and applied. More seriously, some states have a practise of completing a thorough mechanical and design analysis of certain vehicles following an accident. Should mechanical components be found to be malfunctionin, installed incorrectly, or not be functioning consistent with original manufacturer's specs, or manufacturer's specs appear to not meet industry standards, the state is known to place the entire blame on that vehicle, on its Manufacturer and on the component supplier. In one such instance the axle supplier was shown to have installed some of the brakes contrary to recommended standards and although the brakes were working just fine at the time of accident, and the actions of the operator were in no way responsible for the accident, the litigation began which resulted in putting the axle manufacturer out of business. Even if everything is done correctly and these issues sound incidental or of no real value ..... until something happens which requires those decisions to be substantiated. The people who take it the hardest when things go wrong are the Engineering Dept., even if it's not their fault.
Trailer manufactures are always fighting 2 insideous enemies.... weight and cost. The Engineer, referencing his frame design, said that to do otherwise would increase the weight and therefore require other components and tow vehicle. I believe that. This implies that they are close to the limits of component ratings. To get any heavier could require bigger axle capacities with air brake system, heavier suspension capacity, bigger tires with increased load capacity and a compatible tow vehicle with air system, probably referring to a class 8 truck/tractor. Again I would want to confirm that choices affecting the weight and the cost price are a reasonable trade off based on risk vs reward for individual applications. Every vehicle requires a plate or decal to identify its VIN, Tare Weight, Gross Vehicle Weight (GVW) tire size and air pressure, date manufactured, and states that the vehicle is manufactured in compliance with all Federal Laws in effect at date of manufacture. That is a Federal requirement of all recognized and approved manufacturers and identifies them on the compliance plate,
Lastly I want to state that I have never been able to understand how something with the integral characteristic and ability to move, bend, deflect or flex can be attached, and derive some of it's yield strength, from materials that do not move, bend, deflect or flex, and expect it not to break. Add poor quality trades to that scenario and the results are exponentially compounded. Choice of materials add to weight and cost considerations for which there is no easy solution. But there is no excuse for the rampant poor quality of workmanship that has become commonplace in the RV industry in the past few years.IMO.
And worse still is the manner in which many of the owners of these unacceptable products are being treated. It sure makes the good ones stand out at any price.!
Disclaimer - Comments are my own opinion and not intended to slander or disparage any individual, group or company. And not intended to sell or to discourage or restrict anyone else from making a purchase of their own chosing.
April would make a great press secretary. Dodging answers, deflecting, answering non answers, etc.
These companies (like politicians) prefer pointing fingers at each other and dodging the issue, if you can't have engineers from all parties involved set down and come up with workable guidelines then none of them should be in the business of sending their work down the highway.
What i see is broken welds by Lippert>There just passing the buck IMO
Perhaps...but perhaps not. The overlying question here is "Why do welds break?" One reason, of course, is that the weld is bad, but the vast majority of these come down to an error made by whoever was on the opposite end of the stick, gun, or torch. The occurence of bad welds is minimized by qualified welding inspectors, which one would hope Lippert employs..
Another reason welds fail is that forces were applied against it that the weld simply could not handle, no matter how good it was. Whether it is a building, a car, or an RV, those forces are going to win and that weld (and likely other elements of the structure or vehicle) are going to lose. Always.
I thought the welds were holding. It was the thin metal itself, was tearing...that would be due to:
- too thin of material
- not enough supporting brackets (gussets)
- no 'bends' added in to make things stronger
Did you give them your questions prior to the meeting.
Great information video. Waiting for the next one. Have a wonderful day.
When I purchased my Fifth Wheel, my RV sales person made it a point to inform me that Lippert only approved the Reese Goosebox, since I indicated I wanted to go the goosebox route. I purchased the recommended Reese Goosebox and have been very pleased with it. I have a camera in my truck bed and I can see the Goosebox moving up and down plus forward and backward as I drive down the road. I'm a mechanical engineer and it seems this reduces the impact forces that would lead to fatigue failure in the frame. On the negative side, the engineering manager made it a point if you increase the length of the pin box, it increases the lever arm, which increases the torque on the frame attachment point. This increased torque will lessen the fatigue life considerably. I noticed he didn't make any physical affirmation (like a head nod) of your comment that you have a "Lippert Approved" Reese Goosebox. Since the Reese Goosebox is longer in the downward direction to reach into the truck bed, it has a large increase in the lever arm compared to a traditional fifth wheel pin box. JD, can you get Lippert to give a more obvious thumb up on approving the Reese Goosebox? BTW, I have no plans to change from the Reese Goosebox. It's great to have my whole truckbed free when I arrive at the campsite or home. Note that I have a 34ft, 12,000 lb fifth wheel. It seems the larger and heavier fifth wheels are more likely subject to the frame failures.
Thanks for doing this interview with Lippord. I think that in many of these cases, it is an owner issue, not the manufacturer. Looking forward to seeing the rest of your videos.
The big question is this: After the interview(s) were complete, did Lippert require you to provide them the video for approval/editing PRIOR to you releasing it on your channel? As many have pointed out, the Engineer seems willing to answer the question but the Customer Service VP is talking around the answer and trying her best to not directly answer the questions.
Notice He Doesn't Answer your question, which is a fair and important one!