Paladin Subclass Tier Ranking (Part 3) in D&D 5e
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 2 ส.ค. 2024
- MONSTERS OF DRAKKENHEIM is 300+ pages of eldritch horror inspired monsters for 5e by the Dungeon Dudes! Coming to Kickstarter March 26th, 2024: www.kickstarter.com/projects/... We discuss the Oath Of The Watchers Paladin, introduced in Tasha's Cauldron Of Everything. We look at how it compares to the other paladins, and how the community ranked it.
This episode is SPONSORED by Dungeons of Drakkenheim. Now available for Pre-order here. bit.ly/3ftIUbm
TIME STAMPS
0:00 - Sponsor
0:54 - Intro
2:20 - Oath Of The Watchers
17:58 - Community Rankings
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Watchers paladin, horizon walker ranger, twilight cleric and circle of stars druid makes for an amazing planar warrior party.
Good flavor
power rangers
I thought I would reflavor exactly those classes for ravenloft. Feeling mistways instead of portals would make the horizon walker a mist walker, and it would be so cool. Although it seems mistways are not a thing in 5e.
Funny enough, I was just thinking about the horizon walker being a good duo partner for the subclass. Two Bros on patrol, guarding their Kingdom from extra planar threats
What a “stellar” team 😂😂😂
I think the bonus to initiative is understated, most of the paladin auras are supremely situational and having an aura that is active every single combat is absolutely stellar.
I haven't even gotten out of the drakenheim ad, and I agree with this. It's just facts. To quote my statistics professor "'Always Meh' is statistically better than 'Usually shit, but sometimes cool'".
There are reasons why alpha striking is a thing.
It may be active every combat, but you'll feel its effect only in like 20% of them. Let's assume the aura gives you +4, and you have the same base Initiative as your enemy. Without aura, you have a 50% chance of going before the enemy. With it, it goes up to 70%. So in 50% of cases you would go first even without the aura, and in 30% the enemy will go first even with the aura. So really you get to profit from this ability only in about 20% of combats.
Couple it with not-impressive Channel Divinity and Spell List, and I don't think it's that good subclass. Still may be worth A-tier, but only barely in my opinion.
@@antongrigoryev6381 Except you multiply those odds across every player every combat and you very rapidly start noticing a difference. Also, what are you on about? The spell list is fine.
What I'll give you is that the 15th level feature is incredibly unimpressive. As most campaigns only reach 10th~ level, paladin subclasses come down to the aura and spells+CD. As I said before, having an aura that kicks in for every player every combat is fantastic compared to a niche immunity or the like.
@@antongrigoryev6381 if what you claim was true then Alert would be a terrible feat. Giving most of Alert to all of the party all of the time is great
Monty and Kelly: In depth explanation of how Abjure the Extraplanar works and its applications.
What I heard: You can send extraplanar beings to their timeout corner.
I think it may be a little overlooked by some people but the oath of watchers 7th level aura ability is possibly the strongest in the game. Having a scaling bonus to initiative that you can give to your entire party can completely knock over combat encounters. In 5e action economy is everything and having your whole party go first can eliminate entire enemies before they even get to act, or prevent the big bady from taking an extra turn to flee or kill a player, definitely not to be overlooked.
Totally agree. This, by itself, cranks Oath of the Watchers to full S tier. Making you and your entire team go first before the enemies do utterly breaks most combats you will ever get into. This in fact makes this subclass the best of the Paladins by a WIDE margin.
The way Kelly stared off into space and said “Enemies that are dead.” Is slaying me 💀
15:47 for everyone else that wants a button right to when he says it
“Remember kids, there are no witnesses if all enemies are dead.”
Dead
Enemies
Friends?
Enemies
Dead
"a bit of a short one"
Not by much Monty, judging by the timestamp. not by much
I was thinking the exact same thing
I wonder if the A and B tiers need a slight change, where instead of "S-tier in the right campaign", B is S-tier in niche campaigns (eg the setting is mostly at sea) and A is generally strong and possibly S-tier in frequent circumstances (eg fighting fiends at mid-level).
I agree, a little more clarification between those would be useful. As they said, Oath of the Watcher is really good in any campaign, but in the right campaign (Descent into Avernus) OPAF, it makes sense that it's A tier, but according to the guidelines, since it's situationally S tier, it would fall into B.
@@michaelmurphy2112 well I think what they mean by B tier being situationally S tier is really B tier is situationally S tier, but when it’s not S it’s not great. A tier can situationally b S as well, but when it’s not S it’s still really good.
I think the channel divinity ability threw a few people off too. It would seem like it's "situational unless in the right campaign" because a lot of the monster's it turns as well as INT and CHA saves are things you don't see too often in lower level campaigns.
Seeing as most campaigns, apparently, usually don't go beyond LV.9-11, it makes sense that most people see the channel divinity as a bit more situational.
i'd support this, just a teansy bit more clarification for the A and B tiers
If something is S-tier in frequent circumstances, then wouldn't that just make it S-tier?
It was a Dungeon Dudes video that convinced me Watchers is S-tier.
Dungeon Dudes was doing a "theoretical best party" video, and I went through a bunch of different parties in my head, and kept coming back to oath of the watchers paladin. When all of your teammates are making strong characters, adding +5 to everyone's initiative is such a big deal. Like imagine you've got a bladesinger wizard in the party, they really want to act first, activate their bladesong and land that hypnotic pattern before the enemies can do anything. They would love to get the alert feat, and Watchers paladin basically gives the alert feat to them. Now imagine you've got two other teammates who are just as impactful as a bladesinger--maybe a moon druid and a twilight cleric. They also gain a ton from winning initiative, and you're basically giving the alert feat to them, too. This is so strong.
Does the vengeance paladin have a better channel divinity than watchers? Sure, it's better. But it's just a channel divinity. It's only available once per short rest. Only works on one enemy per short rest. The initiative boost is active all the time against all enemies. (And as far as offence goes, your whole party winning initiative is a big deal for offence).
The one thing I will say about watchers is that they lose some value if your teammates are making low-impact characters. Like...in a party full of sword&board fighters, fine, maybe don't make a watchers paladin. But on a team of good players making good characters? I think watchers is the best paladin.
Worth to mention, that some undead have features that make them resistant or even immune to turn, while none of the others have it because they were never designed with Turn in mind. That makes this feature even better, but ofc the campaign you play in has to utilize these creature type.
Wow seriously I didn't know that what undead?
@@snazzyfeathers liches are one. The grim reaper summoned by the skull card of the deck of many things is another. They tend to be particularly powerful undead.
@@snazzyfeathers most undead that can talk are either resistant immune to being turned, either through immunity/advantage on the save or through just being immune to the Frightened condition
even ghasts have an aura of turn resistance
@@PandaKnightsFightingDragons Being immune to fear does not make it immune to turning
Turning =/= fear
Subclass vids are my favorite. I know it's no new information, but I rewatch them every few weeks just cause it's so cool to know about classes she subclasses I've never played
Maybe I'm the the only one, but I'm still anxiously awaiting the circle of stars druid review.
You're not the only one
Yeah looks really good on paper I just wanna know what the dudes thnk
Friend is playing one right now.
I played one up to lvl 5 before the campaign was forced to go on indefinite hiatus. The dragon form was fantastic, plus the chalice came in clutch a few times. The archer is pretty good at tier 1, but beyond that it seems pretty lackluster.
@@dcohen1359 I dunno, 2d8 + 5 once you hit level 10 seems pretty strong for a bonus action. Pair this with sunbeam and you could be doing 40 damage on average every round
I’m happy to see you guys rated the Oath of the Watchers so highly. I’m currently playing a Scourge Aasimar Oath of the Watchers Paladin (my first Paladin) in a Rime of the Frost Maiden campaign. Our campaign started with a DM’s Guild adventure called Tasha’s Kiss which dealt with a lot of demonic/fiendish enemies, so I did a lot there, and I still feel like a strong character in Icewind Dale. Then again, I also think I have enjoyed my Watcher Paladin so far because I am playing much more defense focused Paladin
Nice. I’m playing an Artificer Tank in RotFM. There’s been a few close-calls and I’ve been thinking about building an Aasimar Paladin Watcher as a back-up. I’m glad to see someone having fun with it.
@@monodescarado First off, an Artificer Tank sounds like plenty of fun. Which subclass did you take? Because my party also has an Artificer, a Half-Elf Armorer, but he is more of a ranged DPS focused character
But yeah, it’s been a blast playing this character. I have had so much versatility of what I could do because my Paladin is so well equipped to face a variety of enemies. The Paladin base class is already well designed to fight undead and being an Aasimar just adds more Paladin to your Paladin lmao and then being a Watcher Paladin makes you better equipped to fight all those extraplanar enemies. My DM actually joked early on that if she wanted to kill my character, she’d have to throw a dragon at me; not because I am particularly weak against dragons, but rather because it’s simply something I don’t have any particular advantages against lol
@@fightingfalcon777 I’m playing a Gnome Battlesmith, but I’m using the mechanical pet to help me tank. Essentially as a gnome, I can ride the pet and increase my movement speed, it’s a bag of hp to soak up attacks, and it can impose disadvantage against attacks on me. I’ve managed to get my AC up to 20 with infusions and I’ve got Sentinel. Attack me, you get disadvantage on the first attack and still need to beat AC20, attack my pet, I hit you with Sentinel.
It’s been pretty solid so far and it’s clearly frustrating my DM. The only major weakness is it’s susceptible to AoEs because my hp pool is essentially split between me and my pet, so an AoE is like taking double damage.
But I know full well I’m going to die. It comes with the territory of tanking :) So the Watcher Paladin is looking like a good replacement. I’m thinking of some kind of ‘Observer’, maybe for the Raven Queen, to be at the forefront of major events and ‘collect memories’ for his Queen.
@@monodescarado that sounds dope, your Gnome Battle Smith 👍🏻
That’s an interesting idea for your Watcher Paladin. Mine is a Paladin of Helm. His whole thing was his human father taught him how to fight and be a blacksmith with his unknown birth mother being the one his Celestial heritage came from, his only clue to her being a shield she left for him with an unknown holy symbol. He only discovered his connection to Helm at the start of the campaign when a priest identified the symbol as belonging to Helm
These videos are such a help for me, they really help me gleam hidden gems from subclasses that I may have missed when reading over them, currently up to about 25 characters 😅
I am in the same boat. I'm at 50 and climbing. Every time I watch one of these, I get an idea and either build something I've never played before or make a heinous monster that comes online that level 7 or 8.
To me, this subclass is the ultimate Dexterity based paladin. If you want to play the Trevor Belmont paladin, this is it, max out your dexterity, take the Alert feat - profit.
It’s interesting to hear y’all rank the subclasses based on utility. I’ve always gone for the flavor it adds to the character. Now, I’ll avoid subclasses that are clunky and get in the way of playing, but choosing a class and subclass for the flavor it brings is my favorite part of role playing.
Updated tier list (regarding both The Dungeon Dudes and the users):
S TIER
- Path of the Totem Warrior (Barbarian)
- College of Lore (Bard)
- Peace Domain (Cleric)
- Twilight Domain (Cleric)
- Circle of the Moon (Druid)
- Battle Master (Fighter)
- Echo Knight (Fighter)
- Gloom Stalker Conclave (Ranger)
- Aberrant Mind (Sorcerer)
- Clockwork Soul (Sorcerer)
- Divine Soul (Sorcerer)
- The Hexblade (Warlock)
- School of Divination (Wizard)
A+ TIER
- Armorer (Artificer)
- Life Domain (Cleric)
- Rune Knight (Fighter)
- Oath of Vengeance (Paladin)
- Arcane Trickster (Rogue)
- Soulknife (Rogue)
- Swashbuckler (Rogue)
- The Fiend (Warlock)
- The Genie (Warlock)
- Bladesinging (Wizard)
- Chronurgy Magic (Wizard)
A TIER
- Artillerist (Artificer)
- Battle Smith (Artificer)
- Path of the Ancestral Guardian (Barbarian)
- Path of the Zealot (Barbarian)
- College of Eloquence (Bard)
- Forge Domain (Cleric)
- Grave Domain (Cleric)
- Light Domain (Cleric)
- Tempest Domain (Cleric)
- Circle of the Shepherd (Druid)
- Eldritch Knight (Fighter)
- Way of the Open Hand (Monk)
- Way of Shadow (Monk)
- Oath of the Ancients (Paladin)
- Oath of Conquest (Paladin)
- Oathbreaker (Paladin)
- Beast Master Conclave (TCE) (Ranger)
- Horizon Walker Conclave (Ranger)
- Swarmkeeper Conclave (Ranger)
- Scout (Rogue)
- Shadow Magic (Sorcerer)
- School of Abjuration (Wizard)
- School of Enchantment (Wizard)
- Order of Scribes (Wizard)
B+ TIER
- Cavalier (Fighter)
- Psi Warrior (Fighter)
- Way of the Kensei (Monk)
- Oath of Devotion (Paladin)
- Oath of Redemption (Paladin)
- *Oath of the Watchers (Paladin)*
- Fey Wanderer Conclave (Ranger)
- Phantom (Rogue)
- Draconic Bloodline (Sorcerer)
- Wild Magic (Sorcerer)
- The Archfey (Warlock)
- The Celestial (Warlock)
- The Fathomless (Warlock)
- School of Evocation (Wizard)
- School of Illusion (Wizard)
- School of Necromancy (Wizard)
B TIER
- Alchemist (Artificer)
- Path of the Storm Herald (Barbarian)
- College of Glamour (Bard)
- College of Valor (Bard)
- Nature Domain (Cleric)
- Order Domain (Cleric)
- Trickery Domain (Cleric)
- War Domain (Cleric)
- Circle of Dreams (Druid)
- Circle of the Land (Druid)
- Champion (Fighter)
- Samurai (Fighter)
- Way of the Long Death (Monk)
- Oath of Glory (Paladin)
- Hunter Conclave (Ranger)
- Assassin (Rogue)
- Mastermind (Rogue)
- Thief (Rogue)
- The Great Old One (Warlock)
- School of Conjuration (Wizard)
C+ TIER
- College of Swords (Bard)
- College of Whispers (Bard)
- Arcana Domain (Cleric)
- Death Domain (Cleric)
- Knowledge Domain (Cleric)
- Circle of Spores (Druid)
- Arcane Archer (Fighter)
- Way of the Drunken Master (Monk)
- Oath of the Crown (Paladin)
- Monster Slayer Conclave (Ranger)
- Inquisitive (Rogue)
- Storm Sorcery (Sorcerer)
- Graviturgy Magic (Wizard)
- School of Transmutation (Wizard)
- War Magic (Wizard)
C TIER
- Path of the Battlerager (Barbarian)
- Path of the Berserker (Barbarian)
- Way of the Sun Soul (Monk)
D+ TIER
- The Undying (Warlock)
D TIER
- Banneret/Purple Dragon Knight (Fighter)
- Way of the Four Elements (Monk)
- Beast Master Conclave (PHB) (Ranger)
I'd like to point out, though, that they should review the rankings for the 2 Ranger subclasses in TCoE, because spellcasting is a core mechanic of Rangers, and both classes have abilities that synergize well with their own spellcasting, but the synergy was not mentioned in their evaluation.
The Fey Wanderer gets Charm Person, which allows them to trigger Beguiling Twist off of their own actions, besides also being able to use allied spells for it.
The Swarmkeeper gets the ability to force movement on enemies, even at range, if they have a high enough Save DC. This can be combo'ed with multiple static spells, like Spike Growth (which they can get themselves), Wall of Fire, Cloudkill, and Prismatic Wall for massive damage EACH ROUND the spell lasts.
Doing a hero’s job with this list and I thank you for that.
This is still great. Thank you!
Watchers is S tier no matter what the campaign. The Aura is just always amazing.
Hey dudes ! Just wanted to say thanks for all your awesome content. I am a small French DM playing dnd with friends and I always appreciate your videos. They have helped me enrich my campaigns a lot and made 5th edition much easier to use. I have pre ordered your Drakenheim campaign and I can't wait to play it ! Merci and keep up the great work !
Literally building this character today! Great timing on the video! Solid content as usual guys.
For Oath of watchers - a key thing to note about their abjure the extaplanar: As an Arcana Cleric, I have a similar feature, and I can tell you it sounds nice, but a lot of the extra-planar foes you'd want to turn have advantage on saving throws against magical effects. So its a feature that is fairly hard to land, especially if your DC isn't really high.
Arcana cleric targets 1 creature with its arcane abjuration.
Watcher paladins abjure the extraplanar forces all targetable creatures within the area to make the save.
Great job as always, these are my favorite videos that you guys do.
Patiently (or not so patiently) waiting for the Monk Subclasses
Same
This is great to hear that this subclass is well received. I was very excited to try it out and will be bothering the DM to know what kind of enemies I'd be in combat against.
I'm mostly a silent lurker but I've watched you guys for a couple years now, haven't actually played dnd; I just show up for the passionate presentation of your guys' opinions hah, maybe eventually tho. Always super excited to see something new pop up from DD.
Never played either. But I've played 3/3.5 and a ton of different tabletop games and went to conventions and all that in like 2000-2012 so I know the ropes. Funny thing is if I ever play I'll know all the rules subclasses and spells etc just from 100's of TH-cam vids I've watched :)
@@jagoob haha yeah same, I’ve watched all of crit role campaign one and two and I watch everything these guys put out as well along with some other campaigns like Oxventure and such. I’m sure I’d acclimate to how things work quick with how I’ve unintentionally studied the mechanics (just purely out of rpg-nerd-interest lol)
Another useful review. Thanks, Kelly and Monty!
"That's a Paladin"
Had me thinking the "Oath of A Paddlin' " Paladin homebrew might be an excellent class if I ever make a Simpsons-themed campaign! 🤣
Rest in peace Kelly’s glorious long hair, you’ll be missed
I hadn't noticed as I was just listening. Thank you. I can now go mourn in peace.
Rest in spaghetti, never forgetti
Sometimes I remember what day of week it is based on when DungeonDudes upload videos!
I am currently playing this one and it is amazing definitely put it as an A myself. Have got to use both my channels, but yeah while I don't get everything all the time I am still a rock star and the party loves the initiative bonus.
Have to admit that when I need solid info I keep coming back to the Dudes
Excellent video! Curious to see how Fizban's Treasury of Dragons will factor into the monk and ranger classes.
My party recently rerouted our Tyranny of Dragons game into Descent into Avernus (DM was throwing in crossover breadcrumbs we decided to follow). Since my first character was so tied in to the dragon theme, the DM let me swap characters so I made a Tiefling Watchers paladin. I'm really looking forward to the big plays I'm inevitably going to be able to make.
I am currently playing a Aasimar watcher's paladin. Dipped into divine soul sorcerer. Loving it and it's pretty strong.
Picked shield, Mirror image, misty Step, Haste , Spirit guardians, spirit shroud.
I joined a campaign late and made a watchers paladin at level 7, the group loved the bonus to initiative and in a dungeon crawl it won most of the battles with going first
Almost time for the dudes' ranking on the new bards 👍
I think the community at large doesn’t realize how impactful bonuses to initiative can be, especially in the case where you can give the bonus to the entire party.
The vengeance paladin is a powerhouse in its own right, but how that compares to increasing the likelihood of your entire party taking actions before the enemy should be the real comparison in power.
I was waiting for this one. I made an Oath of Watchers paladin of Helm, this Oath and god fit pretty well together, almost like they're made for each other. Also, my oath is a rip-off of the Night's Watch from Game of Thrones.
I'm starting to get nervous... I've been living for these tier rankings and while I love all their videos, these are my favorite.
Some of the greatest minds in the DND world.
Sounds like an S-tier in new Feywild adventure that came out today! The Wild Beyond the Witchlight looks so cool!
I'm happy to see this video as it means that the mercy monk and beast barbarian are on the way!
This video is still great, though : )
Was sad to see no drakenheim this week but this will hold me over
Im currently going to play a Halfling/Orc hybrid (using rules from An Elf and an Orc had a baby homebrew) Oath of the Watchers paladin for Out of the Abyss and am excited to be really useful. He’s a newly awakened paladin of Helm whom we ruled would have recently been resurrected so he isn’t use to seeing much divine magic but is now stuck in the underdark with powers that he is unfamiliar with and must learn
Personally I think you can't really rank classes without thinking about the roleplay behind it. As you mentioned pure mechanically multiclassing into Hexblade is a solid choice. But building that one up in roleplay can be kind of hard. Similarly I find it often easier to come up with motivations for Oaths other than Vengenance. In particular Deveotion and Watchers are very nice go to for most Paladin motivations.
I really like Watcher Paladins, as they're like the Grey Knights from 40K in 5e.
In our last Campaign, that was Gestalt, we made a lot of factions, and right now one of them is on our asses. They are a legion of 13 level Paladin (Watchers)/Rogue (Thief). Those bastards are Space Marines.
Currently playing a Paladin in a campaign that is based on the Candlekeep book. But things in that game is leading up to demons invading ect. It might not be the best of the subclasses. But it is fun and the oath fits for what I want to do with him
It definitely sounds like it would be fun to play
My favourite moment of this video is where Kelly goes full Canadian at 18:45 with 'Ya Know!'
I DM'd Curse of Strahd this last spring, and watching them play a Watcher's Paladin in that campaign was a bit rough. They got to use their saving throw Channel Divinity in a single encounter in the entire campaign, and ended up switching to Vengeance around level 5 (granted that was for flavor after half the party picked a fight directly with Strand and got rocked)
I'm currently running a 9 hells campaign and one of my players took this subclass. He has outshown the party in most situations
Of all the Paladins I like the Watcher one the best. In terms of Mechanics the Vengeance is probably the strongest but I actually like it the least because of how one-dimensional the oath is. The oaths really guide your RP. With Vengeance it really steers you into being dangerously obsessive about it. While not quite as angry as Conquest, Vengeance really skirts that line.
Oaths overall are really hard to navigate. As a person you really have to dedicate yourself to it. In a black and white world it would be relatively simple. To give an example of how it can be difficult to navigate. Imagine an Ancients Paladin. Now imagine an event happened that was really sad and depressing like their whole family being killed. While it could make an interesting case of just denying the whole thing as some form of mental breakdown due to the conflict of immense grief vs the oath, eventually reality is coming to come crashing down and it would affect you. The oath requires you to be constantly happy and optimistic. A deviation from that can be easily justified as a violation of that oath and now you are an oathbreaker. It is interesting how it seems like Paladins are designed to be held to a more rigid religious code than clerics.
This is why I like Watchers. Originally I was looking at Glory as the oath isn't all that rigid but then it felt like it was making you one of those gung ho jock stereotypes from high school movies. Watchers gives you just the right kind of flexibility though to develop whatever personality traits come your way. It doesn't call upon you to kill ALL extra planar threats, just be mindful of them. The only inflexible demand is don't make deals with fiends or fiend lovers. Pretty smart advice really. It could trap you but overall, it isn't as much of a trap as some of the others are.
Ordered ... Waiting
My list for all the Paladin Subclasses is this.
S Tier: Conquest, Oathbreaker, Watchers
A Tier: Ancients, Crown, Vengeance
B Tier: Glory
C Tier: Redemption
D Tier: Devotion
My issues with Redemption and Devotion are they are too much the Support Role Type, as such I personally don't care to play the Support Role in any game especially not in D&D. Therefore, any Support Role no matter the Class is not my style. I'm not selfish however, rather I just prefer being more Tactical as such I don't care to play the Front-Line Tank either (in D&D). I always play as a Flanker Nuker Type who will decimate the Enemy the best I can while the rest are more "Meat Shieldy" drawing the enemies attention hopefully.
Haha just starting Descent into Avernus I knew it's a great choice.
I love playing high damage characters and Watcher paladin supporting me is just so good.
Hey Dungeon Dudes. I really enjoy your videos and have started playing a half elf oath of the watchers paladin but I'm not sure how to progress with him. Could you make a "how to play" video for oath of the watchers? Thank you and keep it up! 😁
Could be pretty good as a Sorcadin. Watcher's Will combo pretty well with quickening your most powerful spell on the first turn.
nice detailed review - thank you, Was is really "a short one" at 21 minutes? I regard Oath of the Watchers as "A tier", and I hope to see more people soon enjoying this subclass. Otherwise, Oath of Vengeance so far has been so far ahead in "S tier" that the other subclasses have seen far less actual play time.
If I was making this subclass, I’d replace see invisibility with Intellect Fortress but otherwise I’m a fan
You couldn’t replace See Invisibility with Intellect Fortress though, considering that the See Invis is a 2nd level spell and Int Fort is a 3rd level spell. You’d have to replace See Invis with another 2nd level spell.
Thanks.
My favourite paladin subclass!
After having to Captain America my shield at some enemies around the time of the Watchers UA, due to not having access to good ranged spells, I was sad to see it lose the Chromatic Orb.
I agree on Utility. The spell list definitely eases the burden of certain other classes, who'd typically take them in favor of other spells. It does strike me as odd that the nominally religious class doesn't have ritual casting by default.
Watcher's Will is a great ability. As someone who typically rolls very poorly, I could see this helping me a lot. Plus the obvious aid to characters who will likely be more susceptible to those forms of attack. With regards to the wasted turn, it's better to lose out on a turn of damage now vs your Barbarian getting charmed and taking out one of the squishier party members nearby.
The more I think, the Aura has some great potential. Though it is combat specific, it can also save what could be abysmal rolls once your proficiency is high enough. I feel like maybe Vigilant Rebuke could have been lowered slightly and become part of the Aura or an early added ability instead of being 15th level.
I agree on the A-tier rank. Excellent subclass but situational. Besides not quite having certain be all, end all abilities.
Paladin is on my list to play. Lineage either tiefling or half-elf just need to flesh out the rest.
ב"ה
I think it depend on party size too, but in 5 or more characters party the bonus for initiative for the entire party make it an S tier. Even if you only fight humanoids and undead the entire campaign, the bonus to initiative for the spellcaster that get their area spells before the enemy move is so good that overall it contribute to the party more than the oath of vengeance.
"Offensive capabilities are stronger because you can be more proactive"
Right. That's the entire reason why the initiative boost from the sentinel aura is the best paladin subclass feature in the game.
I know im 2 years late to he party but there is something o be said about the Watcher’s turn ability. There are monsters in he game immune to the turned effect, but none of them are fey, aberrations or celestials
There's a background of guilder's guide to ravnica that adds haste to any class spell list...
Oath of Devotion is my go to paladin(we just hit level 11!) I feel it is s class, but I may be biased because our DM loves mind control effects
Can you guys do a "How to play" video on the Echo Knight? I think it's a really cool subclass with a lot of implications.
I'm going to be starting Descent into Avernus soon, and I think I'm going to be playing the oath of the watchers paladin. I'm just trying to decide if I would rather play as a Shadar-Kai with necrotic resistance and blessing of the raven queen or a variant human with polearm mastery and sentinel.
I find it odd that they chose not to modify Divine Sense to sense Aberrations for this Subclass?
So Oath of the Watcher is basically the Men In Black of D&D.
There has to be a campaign hook in that …
They need to get a magic item that casts Modify Memory
Been wanting to make a Dragonborn Paladin for awhile.
Too bad there's only one of them, but that's still good stuff, Dudes! :)
8:30 ... minor correction: Vigilant Rebuke deals Force damage.
My only argument is that your looking at it as a damager which you state. Watcher from my experience is the tank, buffer that synergies well with an attack.
I think the community is getting a better sense of your tier rules too.
What would y'all expect of an Oath of the Storm paladin? Also if you home-brewed one, what would it include? Great video dudes! Keep up the great content.
I would expect a focus on thunder, lightning, and cold damage. Maybe mobility linked to wind and/or lightning. Maybe pushes and/or knocking folks over with thunder. Maybe slowing or disadvantage-ing an enemy with cold. Maybe consider giving them the Lightning Lure cantrip, Shatter, and/or Thunderstep. For inspiration, check out the Tempest Cleric and Storm Sorcerer. Consider what the Oath's Tenets would be, too, because that might guide some of your choices.
I'm playing an Oath of the Watchers paladin in a homebrew campaign. We got attacked by 6 chull. Used Abjure the Extraplanar, sent them all into a corner, two got hit with opportunity attacks when they tried to run, then got destroyed. The ranged attackers would target one at a time to bring them back for easy pickings.
Honestly I'm not so much a fan of pallys in general (online games can make the whole aura radius thing a bit of a pain) but I've been having a lot of fun with my Dhampir/Spider Watchers pally hexblade multiclass~
Namely Watcher's Will is fantastic, meshes fantastically with Bless and using both has saved the parties she's fought alongside more than a few times~
I read the Oath of Watchers and just thought “oh, this is built to say ‘fuck you’ to mind flayers.” Also banishment on a subclass built to fight extraplanars is just really funny. Just going “Bye, a-hole” to multiple enemies is very funny to me
hey! will you guys re do the barbarian video? it took you almost the same time to rate one paladin subclass as ratin all the barabrian's subclasses. I think that having a bit more depth and insight onto those may be great.
Dudes! I’m a few weeks away from running a one-shot w work buddies. Finally! We’re all virgins. But thanks to your awesome content, I think I will suck less than my players, making me a Master GM (in their eyes!). Thanks guys...for motivating me to take that leap.
Having advantage on all those save or suck spells is so good. And with the initiative bonus I think getting that off before the enemy helps get their ability off is clutch and May be better than burst damage. Paladins typically suffer from low dex and initiative. Unfortunately this still may only be +2 or +3 with str taking priority.
Can go dexadin
Place your bets folks! We still have Barbarian, Bard, Druid, and Monk left for Part 3 videos. Personally I could use the barbarian one next for a player of mine.
Please do spirit college bard next
I think offense vs defense is also a matter of play style - I tend to favor defense because I want the option to make my abilities more useful outside of combat and in situations where killing things is not a great idea. There’s something to be said for the potentially added utility of a more defensive build
I recently DM'd a campaign with a Paladin, a Barbarian, and a Sorcerer. By 5th level the Barbarian was very envious of the Paladin's ability to dish out crazy damage.
I was debating on rolling a paladin in a campaign I'm in thats mainly fighting undead/fiends. We just ran in to a Balor which we barely avoided but it almost ended in a TPK when the portal was disrupted. My priest (grave cleric) was killed and im the only healer but the rogue pulled out fey lawyer to bring me back. After all this I was thinking Watcher/anti undead paladinnas so far our main opponents have been caster cultists, undead, and 1 balor after a few months of playing. And my party needs a front liner as the party has a clockwork sorcerer, skill monkey psi rogue, and a assassin/grave cleric. We have got by so far without a front man but it's starting to hurt but we have so far improvised in killing our bosses with creative shenanigans.
Super minor correction on 8:30 . It's Force damage (for some reason), and not Radiant like most people would expect.
For extraplanar threats, abjure and banish, for everything else there's SMITE! :)
My gripe with the skills of Crown versus Redemption is that the latter was built on the trials and tribulations of the former. I feel like Crown needs to be slightly reworked, like many of the subclasses from SCAG. I hope they eventually get around into doing that in the near future. With that being said, I feel like the Community Tier Rankings of the Paladin Classes better depict how they really are more than the Dudes'.
I think Monty is underselling the Conquest Paladin, one of its main draws is providing Aoe to a class that really struggles against crowds of enemy’s
The thing to remember about the combination of Hold Monster and Moonbeam is that you Immobilize your target with Hold Monster, and then cast Moonbeam on their location to reveal what is hidden or return the creature to its other form, for example, a Werewolf or Doppelganger.
This doesn't work as a one character combo. Both are concentration.
@@plop0r and you're usually in a party...
We now have a paladin class that can be played as a SCP agent.
I can see a MTF made up of a party of planar hunters.
SCP? MTF?
@@joeking3282 your about to journey down a rabbit hole my friend.
@@Hollyclown cool ready to go
Maybe battle of the classes? Shoot out amongst the S-tiers and see who comes out on top and who falls to the bottom?
when are you going to cover the new monk classes like mercy or astral?
You guys have done a lot of subclass rankings for each class individually, but what if you were to rank all the subclasses/classes against each of the others
Which class/subclass would stand out on top? And what would the community think?
Somebody in the comments has posted an updated total list
I have to disagree on being behind in damage by setting up defenses if they're needed. By defending your party and preventing them from losing their actions you've contributed to the overall damage output. Just my two cents.
Does anyone feel like the goal posts of what's an s tier are constantly shifting? I feel like there have been other s tiers that would be less effective in 25% of campaigns or have had a stronger s tier character but still been given the s tier