These subclasses are actually S tier for villianous npcs, a soul stealing hooded figure chasing your party, an order of psychic elite assassins murdering key npcs. Awesome!
Oh I'm definitely riffing on this for my Dune-inspired game. If I make that order of psychic assassins an all-woman affair, then I'll have a good skeleton on which to build a Bene Gesserit stand-in
Omg I have a soul knife rogue hunting my party that they don’t know about and gave them a few levels in fighter so they get extra attack and then can use their bonus action to attack again. Giving them three attacks basically
The extra damage from the Wails of the Grave could be more advantageous than you realize. If the secondary damage targets a spellcaster concentrating on a spell, the spellcaster gets no save and must make a concentration check. This can be helpful, especially when the spellcaster out of reach.
And THERE IS NO WAY TO AVOID IT. That's the key here. Maybe the enemy is hard to hit, but if you can hit a minion, you can hit them. Added in to the rest you mentioned...
@@ryanpeters3812 omg I haven thought about that, what about have rats for situations like that.... Muajajjajajaja (even could work for a BBEG that just stab other things and inflict direct damage, like some kind of curse or voodoo magic)
The cool thing with Soul Tokens is that you don't have to be the killer, you just have to see it happen. "Oh no! Jack-the-NPC was just killed! He's the only one who knows where the Antler Dagger is!" "No sweat, I'm on it."
I was thinking something similar as well. I think an item that summons weak creatures can be incredibly useful to farm coins and to damage opponents who otherwise couldn’t be touch. DM - “The BBEG has 40 AC so you stand no chance and must run.” Fighter - “I throw a fluffy ball out of my bag of Tricks next to the BBEG and (rolls dice) summon a bunny.” Rogue - “I attack the bunny from the shadow, triggering my sneak attack which also damages the BBEG. I also get a soul coin from the bunny.” DM - 😑
@@1.21jiggawatts2 the image of a complete psycho who carries arround tiny animals to sacrifice like a maniac cultist in order to kill people easier is just perfect. It's a well known fact that most people who are violent because of this kind of mental disturb start their "career" by hurting small animals so is a very creepy and somehow realistic vibe. All i can think about is like a tiny kid with a lot of pets that they murder while in combat in the most cruel and horrifying way during combat.
I actually did this to guarantee a kill on an enemy sorcerer, I attacked a downed enemy who wasn't dead; since they're incapacitated, it was an autocrit and blew the sorcerer right up.
I also like the idea of Wails of the Grave as a finisher for nearly dead enemies. Rather than wasting all of my sneak attack damage and overall burst on a heavily bloodied enemy, I can disengage, run up to his full health friend, sneak attack that guy, and let the necrotic damage spill over to the one who was almost dead, killing him and doing far more to our next target.
Which at level 9, grants you a trinket which you can use to do it again and again. You can really start pumping out damage with that ability and start using almost every sneak attack. It's also amazing for making a guaranteed concentration check or bypassing nearly any defense. Also, if you're ranged, Wails of the Grave hits an enemy 30 feet from the target, not you. So you can really start doing damage to some enemies before they can even get close to you.
"When a life ends in your presence, you're able to snatch a token from the departing soul, a sliver of its life essence that takes phyiscal form" Yeah I would never rule this as trapping a soul, it tells you in two different ways that it is only taking a small sliver/token of the souls essence, not completely trapping the soul. That would be busted.
I'm with you on that. If the DM wants to do some particular spin on it, I'd suggest it be tied to a particular quest or something. I think they mentioned a lich wanting a soul, then allow the lich to in some way temporarily enhance it or give them an item that uses the ability so they can capture a single soul, and one that has to be particularly powerful and worthy. Or if you want to capture the soul of a party member whose soul on death will belong to some evil entity in order to save them, maybe that would make a nice quest line. For all purposing a very repeatable skill for something like that sounds crazy to me. But to each (table) their own, I suppose.
Agreed. I was about to post the same thing. (Good thing I checked for existing comments this time!) It would definitely break some games. Consider that Soul Cage is a 6th level spell
I personally like the idea of it being a small sliver, not enough to keep them on the material plane, but enough to call them back when they are needed
I think that Phantom's low level abilities are being very underestimated here. Having a free extra proficiency that you can swap around to whatever you need that day is very potent, and extra damage is extra damage, especially when that second creature doesn't make any save or anything against it, provided you hit the first one. Sure they aren't as good as the early features of the S tier Rogues, but it's still quite better than what Thief and Mastermind get at early levels.
It's also better than scout's first 9 levels of, "here's some reaction-based movement, then some fairly eh proficiencies, and more speed at level 9!" Yet Monty somehow convinced Kelly phantom was worse.
@@Iceblade423 Still will never get over Sweeping Attack being bad. It's a fantasy that I think most people want to have in a medieval-fantasy fight to cleave through multiple enemies with one strike, and it doesn't deliver on that at all
@@TheWayOfTheWott Yeah, I decided to replace it with 50/50 damage split: roll all damage as normal with the superiority die. Deal half to target and half to adjacent target (if you beat its AC as well with your hit)
Agreed. While I don't necessarily vibe with the Phantom's flavor, the idea of a floating proficiency in *whatever you're going to need that day* is pretty amazing.
I feel like you two are sleeping on Whispers of the Dead. Having an extra proficiency you can swap out on a short rest is potentially huge. Especially if you know what you might expect from the adventure. Trudging through the wilds? Grab Survival. Doing research? You're an expert in Arcana, Religion or History now. Need to identify a disease or a cause of death? Grab Medicine. Going up against a Vampire? Acrobatics to get out of their grapples. Just the ability to say 'give me an hour and I'm an expert in exactly the thing we need' is *really* good right off the bat, and gets *insane* when you pick Reliable Talent at 11th level. This ability alone I feel puts Phantom in A tier from the lower levels onwards.
Thing is rogues already get so many profiencies, a rogue has a minimum of 6 skill and 2 other profiencies. And most races give one too, so having that extra one at that point isn't as versatile as you make it out to be
@@willwalsh7591 It absolutely is. Rogues get 4 skills at level 1. Then 2 from their background. So there's your 6. Out of 18 skills. You probably grabbed stealth, sleight of hand, acrobatics and perception. So that's 4. And I think you're overlooking tool and vehicle proficiencies. Which are not as easy to come by.
@@adamkaris not all skills come up as often as each other, some skills will be covered by other party members, having proficiency doesn't change it being an off stat based skill, and you can often justify doing almost the same thing using a different skill that you are proficient wirh. It's not gonna be as big as you're thinking.
@@YMasterS I'm playing a Phantom Rogue, currently lvl 5 (plus a single lvl in fighter), and it absolutely is big. It doesn't come up every session, but it does come up frequently enough to be impactful and when it does, every time it's clutch. It's an incredibly *versatile* skill, that lets you patch whichever hole you need, and the usefulness of that is hard to quantify versus, say, something that deals extra damage, but I assure you if you're looking for opportunities to use Whispers of the Dead, you will find them. A lot.
And it swaps on a short rest as well, so you don't need to pick one for the day. If something comes up along the way you can take a break and restart with proficiency.
One point not mentioned on phantom is that the extra damage on a second target helps address one challenge for Rogues which is dealing with numerous smaller enemies. Almost like giving you extra attack on your rogue which is nice.
One thing worth considering is that if the DM uses the optional Cleave rule from the DMG, and particularly if they allow it to work with Sneak Attack, then this feature of the Phantom gets devalued a good bit (at least against groups of smaller enemies).
@@MrTwrule That's the problem with optional/house rules, it can really undermine some class/subclass features. How much better is the Thief's Fast Hands feature in a table that didn't houserule drinking potions as a bonus action?
Honestly, it would be great if you could increase the number of creatures targeted. Maybe spend 2 trinkets per extra target combined with the ghostly visage you can turn into and you can become death incarnated
An Arcane Trickster has to use spell slots for most of those things though, and the Soulknife gets more uses for things like invisibility and teleportation.
The Soulknife has to use dice, which are pretty comparable. They do get a few more uses of their abilities and are more flexible in how they can spend their dice to use their different powers though. In exchange, AT gets cantrips, access to some abilities that the Soul Knife can't replicate with its base kit, and gains access to many comparable abilities sooner than the Soul Knife does. Overall, I think the two subclasses are pretty well balanced against one another.
@@MrTwrule While the Soulknife indeed doesn't get cantrips and spell slots, one thing important to note is that their features can't be counterspelled as a result.
The soulknife is better for movement and combat.. the Arcane trickster is better at thievery, Spellcasting The Phantom is the deadliest of the 3 combat wise, with the soul trinkets at higher lvs..
Currently playing a Soulknife myself and is AMAZING, specially the Psy-Blades, god do i love having infinite ammo for ranged attacks! Also telepathy works GREAT for roleplaying moments, we've had him establish the Mind-Link with a character being interrogated by guards and essentially work as a "cheat-sheet" feeding the right answers to our party member so the guards didn't suspected any foul-play during the interrogation! (Ended making him a "Homunculus" with Tasha's Custom Lineage and my DM helped me flavor his psionic powers as the result of being part of the BBEG's "Magic Clone Army" he is making to act as his secret assassins/spies, my char broke free from the Charm controlling him and his personal quest is to eventually assasinate the BBEG and free his Homunculi "Siblings")
I played a Soul Knife Gnome from levels 1-15. Very unassuming and I wrecked shop. But the ability that as a parrlty we found the most useful was what they called the Psychic Battle Network. That telepathic communication combined with our Bard's Seeming made is the ultimate infiltration team.
One of my players is a Soulknife. They love the telepathy aspect. The party was on a guild quest chasing after an escaped prisoner in the mountains, and met another guild team doing another mission but in the same location. Although they converse with the NPCs just fine, there were a lot of mind talk going on too, so from the npcs' pov, the party communicated via gestures and body language, even in battle. They were impressed on the party being a well oiled machine and how close they must be to function like that. (Grin) in-game, the party has been together a week at best.
Kind of to push some extra ammo for Kelly: One of the issues with Rogue Subclasses is that they don't get a ton of features on their own as Rogue Base is brimming with abilities. All Rogues also have huge gaps in time for the sub class abilities. Rogues only get new abilities at 3rd, 9th, 13th, and 17th levels. Since most campaigns only get up to lvl 12 or so.... you wouldn't see that 13th level ability in plenty of campaigns, and in just a handful. A Ranger is 3rd, 7th, 11th, and 15th. So most rangers would get 3 of their class actions. Rogue is just backloaded on their abilities universally. And no other class has as large of a gap between their 1st and 2nd abilities 3 > 9. Only Cleric has a larger gap between any abilities and that's 8>17, while Cleric is front loaded with tons of other stuff. Thus I think when looking at the whole of Rogue Subclasses internally, the practicality of their early abilities is important, but the best features not being available till later is generally not as strong an argument on Rogue. The ability to spread Sneak Attack damage is a bit stronger and more useful early on. When you look at an Assassin, who also modifies Sneak Attack with their early ability, their next 2 abilities are a let down. When looking at Rogue sub classes, you kind of have to think of them all in terms of a high level campaign. But I think the feature you get early on are things you're gonna make a lot of use out of. And Kelly makes a strong point when he's saying Boss Battles don't make up that much of what you actually do in D&D, and more specifically... Single Monster encounters don't make up that much, as even bosses have some smaller creatures with them.
The ability to spread damage will always be underestimated for a good reason: it always seems better when you're dealing high numbers on the target, but you don't realise as often how much D&d is based on Action Economy, and the importance of having ways to take away the largest amount of targets as fast as possible. That's why i didn't like Fireball when i first started on D&d, like: "everyone says this is overpowered, but the fighter still does at least half the amount of damage than this shit, every single turn", without realizing the amount of enemies i was blowing up with one use of that. A problem that i often face when DMing a boss battle is how much the players ignore the minions, just for them to surround the party and start stabbing them to death. The ability to take out a minion on a single hit, and still transfer some damage for the boss is great for a midigator, because while the Fighter or the Barbarian have an insane damage, the Rogue is way more consistent, and being able to cause a bit of an AoE is amazing for this purpose. They can focus on the tiny annoying minions, while dealing that sweet damage to the boss. I think the only problem with the Phantom is that, by releasing it along with the Soulknife, it lost the attention it deserves, because it's obvious what's the better subclass here. I dunno, i feel like it would be a more fair competition if the tokens were available at level 3, in this case the only thing the level 9 ability would give is the Wails From the Grave bonus uses, that would make the subclass feel way more unique and creepy early on.
You have to witness or cause the death. So as cool as this would be to play out, it doesn’t work. You’d be right there the entire time, so you’d know who killed them (you or Dave, the bad guy). And if *you* killed them, why would they want you to help them afterwards? You just killed them, now you wanna help them achieve peace? Fat chance. This idea plays out better with a character that just has Speak With Dead and they just happen upon dead peeps.
Don't forget that rogues get Reliable Talent at 11th level. I know, still higher level, but as a complete package with the Phantom subclass that can be a gamechanger. The ability to roll a minimum 10 on a deception, investigation, insight, etc even though that isn't your thing can unlock a lot of new things for the rogue I also want to mention, these videos have felt a little more like ranking the subclasses linearly, rather than in a tier list. A tier-list is fluid and each item can be ignorant of its siblings, because they don't detract from the tier it's been placed in. However, the constant comparison to the Arcane Trickster makes these rankings feel a little more like we're looking for "What's better than the AT?", rather than "How do each of these subclasses augment and accent the Rogue class's overall strengths?" I still enjoyed the series, and the other classes as well. But I kinda wish everything wasn't compared to the AT, since the fact that that's S (maybe SS) in your ranking shouldn't impact the idea that the Soulknife is also S, for example.
Yeah, I enjoyed the video well enough but it was starting to get annoying hearing everything compared to the Arcane Trickster. The AT is the Polearm Master of the Rogue - everything gets compared to it.
Yes! Arcane Trickster basically comes out as either brokenly good, or really sub-par, depending on option selections they very briefly glossed over, and then it was used as a club through the rest of this section of the series. Not in spirit, nor in the parameters given at the beginning of each video. That's very disappointing, as it's tainted their reviews of all the other Rogue subclasses inescapably. Poor form, especially from Monty, who seemed more focused on the point.
Its good to mention Phantom rogues Whisper of the Dead really add to the reliable talent you get at 11th. Its a guaranteed 14 plus minus whatever your proficiency is for that skill/tool, you just need foresight to pick up the proficiency
Correct me if I’m wrong, but couldn’t you use the Phantom’s Tokens of the Dead feature on freshly fallen party members? It would potentially make for some interesting role play at first, and then follow it up with a cool quest to return them to the land of the living.
Yeah, rules wise, you only need to see the character die, you don't need to be the one to kill them. (Even more interesting is, if you were meeting with an informant for crucial info and they get killed before you get the info, you're not screwed because you can ask the Soul Token you got from them)
With PCs it could be awkward given how it written it implys the soul is bound to the trinket till the phantom breaks it. That would make resurrection impossible as the soul isn't free to be resurrected and that's one requirement for all resurrection type spells along with the soul willing to be ressurected. Plus not sure why you'd do that to a PC unless you know the player isn't wanting their character to be ressurected or has already agreed to it. Cause even if the DM 2oukd be ok with the player might not be.
@@TheJerbol True but your party might not always have that spell. I know a DM that doesn't like spells like that because they think it takes away the suspense of death in the game.
The only thing that's kinda weird with the Soul Knife, though I agree it's one of the best and my favorite rogue subclass, RAW you can't perform Opportunity Attacks with your Psychic Blades. I handwaved it for my player so that he can use the blades for Opportunity Attacks and Intimidation purposes and he absolutely had a blast playing a Soul Knife. Also for Arcane Tricksters, you really need to get them good spells or it won't be as good a Soul Knife's base kit. Anyways, I love the content and I can't wait for Shadows to be back.
By opportunity attacks you mean like Sneak Attacks or am i missing something? (Still new to DnD, my DM lets me do sneak attacks with them because "Rules as Written" sneak attack says you need either a Finesse or Ranged weapon for sneak attack and the Psychic Blades HAVE the Finesse & Thrown Properties)
No problem. Basically, you can still do opportunity attacks with a normal weapon and still sneak attack with it. Its just that RAW, the Psychic Blades specifically says "Whenever you take the Attack action, you can manifest the Psychic blades and attack with it". Meaning you can't use a Reaction to do an Opportunity Attack with the Psychic Blades. But yea, I also allowed my Opportunity Attacks with the Psychic Blades and even in social interactions.
@@beastwithin7772 Wel technically they can draw a short sword after the first round. Which is often better anyway as its a d6 and most likely is a +1 at least once that becomes relevant. Just means missing out on honing strikes with your offhand realistically.
One thing I noticed. No where does it say that Token of the Departed needs to be an enemy, it could also be a fallen ally or a fallen NPC. The idea of an ally giving you advantage on death and CON saving throws is an interesting roleplay option.
"you're able to snatch a token from the departing soul, *a sliver of its life essence"* You're not soul-trapping the target. All soul-trapping effects specify that the target cannot be resurrected without a saving throw or a use of the Wish spell
An important question to ask though would the sliver of soul be able to be affected by a say, Resurrection or Reincarnate since it is a bit of soul. would a wish be able to completely bring a new body and new life to the Soul sliver?
@@ChitenBugMan As per the spell Clone, you cannot, as it's not "at least 1 cubic inch of flesh of the creature that is to be cloned" As for Wish, that, like many other uses of the Wish spell, probably depends on the DM
Meh, I’d dm that in behind the curtain. It’s flavorful and has ramifications I can exploit or run with. Also in my world the big magic items can only be made with or traded for soul shards. So yeah, I can bake this in with some modifications
Monty "but arcane trickster has spells" martin, shooting down every subclass, arcane trickster is good, but spell slots are VERY limited on it, i think you have overhyped one subclass that has led you to massively undervalue every single other subclass
Also there are a lot of enchantment and illusion spells that require your full action or concentration so you can't use them in combat or you have to really worry about getting hit.
I like how he called himself out in the last video yet he STILL is using it to influence his rankings with these subclasses. Like dude, not everything has to be spell focused ffs
The Phantom feels like an A. A low A, but an A. The cry of the grave feature hits the second target without a save. A high AC enemy with a minion just has a new weak point. This might not be the strongest, but its guaranteed damage matters. The soul blade... is an S. There's no way it isn't. All the options it has can't be countered, unlike the arcane trickster, and you have a free usage once per long rest. And the swashbuckler has the same free usage flexibility, which made it S too. All in all, Tasha's was solid for rogues. Unlike some other classes, it didn't raise the bar, but matched the subclasses perfectly.
He said dnd instead of dungeons and dragons in the intro, that was weird for a moment Also wonderful content!!! Edit: Kelly is wearing a The Evil Dead shirt. I love Evil Dead, Army of Darkness, and Ash vs Evil Dead. Which, his shirt may not be referencing them cause I see the The. Just wanted to mention it
Have to say I found the phantom to be very versatile, I leaned into the magic and took magic initiate, so had familiar and green flame blade anyway as well as message, while an arcane trickster can't take wails. Since we rarely faced only a single enemy in our campaign, I would say damage from my phantom rogue was generally very high.
"All you get is an extra proficiency that you can swap out..." You mean the same thing that was one of the main arguments people widely used for why the Mystic was completely broken? And you're acting like it's nothing? I'm confused...
@@RealMiniLink There were several reasons that were commonly cited. One was the ability to be proficient in any skill. Another was the mid-level power of the mystic, which was exceptionally high... although it didn't grow really after that. Then there were smaller less common reasons people gave, like the high AC it could get, the high speed it could move, or the multiple concentration thing. The "can do anything other classes can do but better" thing didn't last long for a couple of reason. Firstly, it's not the only class that could fill every role. Secondly, it didn't hold up under any scrutiny. It was simply a false conception. The cleric out healed it by a million miles, the wizard out magicked it, the paladin out nova-ed it, and the barbarian out tanked it. It was a better allrounder then most classes, but it didn't outperform the most specialised classes. The bard also outperformed it at being an allrounder. Overall, the Mystic was broken in terms of power, but only at mid level, and only in "low combat" adventuring days because it ran out of steam very quickly if it tried to perform other classes (for example it's super powerful nova attacks could only be used 3 times in an entire day, and they were wasted if it missed unlike the paladins nova). But that's what counted for most people since that's how most people play and the level most people play at.
I really love the phantom, and like you said too, it doesnt come online until REALLY high lvls, but that just means i can just go full rogue and not look back. Its features are amazing and i feel like so many things can be done with them, and i cant wait for the next campaign, coz im gonna play the phantom rogue then
I hear what both of you are saying about the extra damage on the phantom, but I agree with Kelly that it may be more useful than first perceived especially when factoring in minions
I'm a little disappointed no one refered to the Soul Knife as attacking "with the focused totality of their psychic powers" like how Psylocke would in X-Men, since it's the biggest example in pop culture. Heck, even the art in Tasha's looks similar. I want to make a Soul Knife and take the Telekinetic feat and that lovely invisible Mage Hand like how the Arcane Trickster gets but with that wonderful Shove action added in.
I thought of Psylocke a lot, but also Blink, since she developed the ability to throw psychic blades that would open portals where it landed. So similar. Tandy Bowen is a good call too. Have a Soul Knife and a Phantom together and you've got Cloak and Dagger.
While I also agree with the interpretation that the Phantom's spil trinkets are souls you trapped, that is somewhat called into question with its level 13 ability that just gives you a soul trinket if you don't have one after a long rest. Where did that soul trinket come from? If it functions like the ones the subclass makes, how was that soul trapped and when? Is the soul inside related to the rogue at all? Does it have to be someone the rogue killed at any point beforehand?
@NullLex00 Agreed. If they can contact spirits using Whispers of The Dead because the souls "cling to them" then who is to say they can't pluck one away to make a soul trinket?
I’m currently trying to build Arsene Lupin as a NPC to have fun interactions and roleplay with my party, and now that I watched all the Rogue subclass tiers I’m thinking of going with a Thief and giving him a lot of Feats
I love this community. The tavern campaign, your campaign, just blown away by how much support this community has that they'll literally multiply goals by over 10x the amount. It's so cool to be able to see players dreams and campaigns be official content
I don't think it actually captures their full soul when a Soul trinket is formed due to the following phrase: "a sliver of its life essence that takes physical form". Typically, a soul isn't really referred to as "a sliver of essence", but rather the entire essence enchilada.
It also says the soul is desperate to leave so of it was just an essence of the soul the rest of the soul should have already moved on....this is why its vague in its wording it's not clear if the sliver is just used to make the trinket or if it also binds the rest of the soul along with it
@@catherineholt1149 Thing about that is - a common bit in Fantasy is that the soul can be split into pieces, so I still feel it is only a sliver and not the entire thing.
Phantom rogue increases their damage output by near 50%. It adds aoe, and it's guaranteed so you can hit the ac tank, or force a conc save on a spellcaster. Or it let's you finish off the low HP enemy without having to blue your one and only attack on it. It also adds some AOE to rogue which is kind of unheard of. The proficiency ability is also pretty good, it let's you get proficiency in nature or survival to gather herbs and such, and then an hour later change the proficiency to a healer's/alchemists kit to turn said herbs into potions. Just having access to any tool, on demand is amazing (especially since tools are something you'll know your going to use/need in advanced so you can prepare it when necessary)
The soul knife rogue is so good, not just for it's abilities, but because it can be reflavored in so many different ways. I recently played a soul knife gambler whose knives manifested as playing cards.
Late reply here, but my Soulknife is reflavoured too! He recieved the blessing of his setting's moon goddess, so his knives actually manifest as moonlight blades.
A high elf or half elf Phantom can have Green Flame Blade and Wails from the Grave, and I feel that is a really thematic and fun combo to use. (Magic Initiate is another option) P.S. I really love your videos, I have learned a lot from you.
Treantmonk mentioned Phantom coming online at 6, and I agree. This subclass is a monster. Unavoidable half damage from your alpha strike... it's amazing. It's EASY to get sneak attack, most other classes give you unique ways to use it in a different way, but if you know what you're doing; you'll always get it. And being a rogue it is easy to get in range to get your trinket (at six) and bounce out... putting this next to mastermind... upsetting.
Yoo I'm glad you agreed with me on the Soul Knife thing, my current character is a changeling one, and her psionic abilities tie in well with the character as a whole. Also, I'm multi classing into an Echo Knight so on top of all that, I can summon a friend:)
I made the same character, a changeling soul-knife. Pretty cool stuff. I just don't now if I should tell the group who I really am. Still a lvl 1 and talking to the dm right now.
@@KarmicKnight97 I don't really want it to be a trap, or at least try to be annoying at the table. I'm talking with 2 different DM's right now to see if they will allow it at the table. I think my character is benovolent but I can see how it can be a problem. I just think it's a unique character idea. Who needs a disguise kit when you can literally change into anyone.
My soul knife is a hexblood that was a changeling in the classic sense (fey child left in place of a mortal child). Also a cool combo! Our druid is the changeling shapeshifter.
One thing that strikes me about Phantom: it's a Rogue subclass that *actually* increases potential damage, and does at level 3. Most don't, and if they do, it's at high level. For as good as Swashbuckler and Soul Knife are, they don't actually do "more" potential damage than any other rogue. Swashbucker has easier Sneak Attacks, but doesn't hit harder. Soul Knife does the same damage as any other Rogue with feat-boosted bonus action attacks (Crossbow Expert or Fighting Initiate for Two Weapon Fighting), if you're rolling hits. Thief and Scout get true extra attacks, but don't get them until 17th level. Phantom does more total damage under the best case than other folks. Now, that's not to say that Phantom is S-Tier. It just has high potential damage. Where the subclass seems like it falls apart is utility. One proficiency is really cool, but Rogues have lots of proficiencies already. Death Saving Throws are nice, but hopefully it won't come up too often. Questions isn't that impressive since it can be lies (but could be handy to ask questions of allies that died). Ghost walk is sweet. But the overall utility is a lot lower than Arcane Trickster, Scout, Swashbuckler, Soul Knife. I mean, SK's Psi-Boosted Knack basically means proficiency in everything, and it stacks with what you already know. Add in telepathy and teleportation and invisibility... The utility just blows the Phantom out of the water.
Soul knife basically gives the two weapon fighting style. The bonus action attack uses modifier, unlike base twf. So an average of 1d4+mod instead of 1d6. So basically an increase of mod-1
I am so happy about finally discussing these rogue types. Mostly familiar with Phantom as I am largely a rogue main and just love what it does and the RP options for it
I love the vid! Just wanted to suggest a video, it would be interesting to see you guys go more in depth about the expanded spell lists for sorcerers and whether the other subclasses should gain that same ability
I'd still give phantom an A because honestly, a lot of rogues really don't have good 3rd level features. Do the thief and mastermind really get better 3rd level features? Not really, in my opinion. The Arcane trickster, soulknife and swashbuckler have amazing 3rd level abilities, which is what elevates them. The scout doesn't really come online until 13th level, A phantom really comes online at 9th level when you can use your wails of the grave more reliably. So I find it better than the scout, which is in A. I think the soulknife is great, but does have its problems. All your abilities revolve around the psi-blades, and so you can't get any magical weapons to augment yourself. No +1-3 weapons. No additional damage. Sure, you get features like homing strikes for better accuracy. But that just kinda makes up for not having that additional accuracy a magic weapon can provide to begin with. When your features just make up for the fact that you can't use magical weapons when other rogues can, that's really not S-tier worthy. Also the way the psychic blades ability is written makes opportunity attacks very awkward. Since you're kinda left empty-handed after your attacks. Also, I'm not very impressed with getting invisibility 6 levels later than an arcane trickster. In a campaign where the DM homebrews magic items to help out (say, an amulet that gives psychic weapons +1) or where magic items are incredibly rare, the class really shines. S tier in the right campaign. I'd give it a B for that reason.
I think with a Rogue all you really want with a magic weapon is the magical damage and a better hit bonus, which the Soulknife gives you. Rogues benefit more from wondrous items that build on their skills and abilities.
Even allowing for the problems soulknife has with magic weapons (which I agree are an issue) I think B for soulknife is too low. Even if Soulknife stops using its psychic blades thanks to finding a better magic weapon, it's hard to see soulknife below an A-tier subclass the way Dungeon Dudes rates things because of how good it is in the social pillar and exploration pillar. You get telepathic communication up to a mile distant at level 3. When you fail a skill check you can roll dice to not fail. And while you may stop using them in big combats, psychic blades also help with staying under cover--you can kill a guard at a distance, and leave no evidence--no arrow or dagger stuck in their back, no visible wound. (Though yes, the problems soulknife has with magic weapons makes me think it should be in A-tier and not S-tier). As for phantom...yes, thief and mastermind DO get better features at level 3. At 3rd level, wails from the grave deals a single d6 of damage, and you can use it a total of twice per day, for a total of 7 damage over the course of an entire adventuring day. So...like...0.3 DPR? This is essentially a non-ability at level 3. Now, at level 5 it scales in multiple ways (now 2d6 damage, and can be used three times per day), but still...21 damage over the course of an entire adventuring day probably averages out to about 1 damage per turn; very underwhelming for a subclass--an assassin rogue that never gets a surprise round probably still brings more damage than that just by gaining some free advantage on the first round, and Assassin is in C tier. Mastermind handing out advantage to one attack on the party fighter is bringing something like...5 damage per round. Thief...thief is weird; thief doesn't bring damage, but does bring a lot of utility on a bonus action. Anyway, compared to other damage abilities, level 3-8 wails from the grave just...doesn't deliver. Honestly, from level 3-8, I think most of the power you get out of phantom is the floating skill check. Which...is fine, if you're picking a rogue as a class you probably want to be a skillmonkey, and this lets you be proficient in any one skill if the party can wait an hour. But...I don't think phantom manages to carve itself out the niche of being the best skillmonkey during level 3-8 either. Scout gets two skill proficiencies and expertise in both. Soulknife gets d8s they can add to their skill checks. Phantom gets to move one skill check, and that's cool, but the raw numbers Scout and Soulknife add, I think put them ahead as skillmonkeys. Phantom becomes a LOT better at 9th level, but...even then...a little DM dependent. If your DM lets you carry around a bag of rats to kill, or lets you go into the forest and step on some bugs to fill up your soul trinkets, you'll have a good time. If your DM only lets you get soul trinkets from their combats, you won't be overflowing in resources; enemies need to die within 30 feet of you for you to get a soul trinket, AND you need to use a reaction (and a lot of rogue optimisation is built around managing to use their reaction to get a second full sneak attack, so using a reaction to get a soul trinket which will deliver half a sneak attack limits the stronger option). Of course, if your DM allows you to carry around a bag of rats and fill up on soul trinkets between combats--no problem; you can reserve your reaction for sneak attacks, and still use 4 soul trinkets every fight. Or alternatively if your party isn't helping you out with reaction attacks (nobody who can haste you, no battlemaster, no order cleric) having a use for your reaction that at least gives you some damage is nice to have. So in that kind of party, where your reaction is free most turns, it's not bad. DM dependent/party dependent sounds like "good in the right campaign" to me. Phantom as B seems reasonable. And yeah, I can agree with lowering Soulknife due to their magic weapon issues, but they have enough other good stuff going for them very early in the game, that A is probably the right place for them.
@@KaitlynBurnellMath " So...like...0.3 DPR?" which hit with 100% chance. Thats the thing - wails from the grave is autohit on another target which suddenly makes it very stupid in a lot of situations.
@@shaneconnolly4747 But those features are still just compensating for the moment you get a magical weapon as any other rogue. A lot magical weapons don't even cost you attunement, so that's not an issue either.
@@KaitlynBurnellMath I mostly agree with you. One caveat to add is that you're comparing bonus action features to a feature that uses 0 action economy (until 9th level, I guess, where it starts competing for your reaction.). I agree wails is underwhelming at 3rd level, though 5th level is usually only a few sessions away. But they do keep their bonus action free for something like two-weapon fighting. Which pretty much makes up for the DPR difference with the mastermind. From playing with thieves, I usually notice that items tend not to add too much to most combats in any reliable fashion. I agree that with something like an order cleric in the party, you're better off picking something that keeps their reaction free. If you require haste to use your reaction effectively, now you allow them to use their concentration for different spells. Still I guess on that basis I think B tier is the place for the phantom. I still think the soulknife requires a campaign with a strong focus on the elements that make it good (infiltration, lots of social/exploration pillar) to justify anything higher than B. Especially since for anything besides those 3rd level features, the arcane trickster will just do the same thing as you and more.
11:00 Any rogue can take green flame blade or booming blade. The cantrips can easily be acquired via racial features or feats. There aren’t many ways for a rogue to deal with multiple enemies at once while also using their sneak attack effectively. There also aren’t many ways to further increase a rogues attack beyond the blade cantrips, and wails stacks with these features. Wails from the grave also has the advantage of allowing for the phantom to maintain distance between themselves and the target without having to move within melee range. You also seem to be discounting the availability of the new steady aim feature a bit which drastically increases the likelihood any rogue will get their sneak attack.
Another cool feature of the soul trinket thing is if one of your teammates die you can collect their soul and bring it with you and find a Cleric or something to resurrect your teammate
First time listening to one of these with headphones and I'm just now realizing how good their recording quality is for not having the mics close to their mouths. Bonus: the parts where Monty taps the table for emphasis sounds weirdly soothing with headphones.
I've been playing a Phantom for a few months now. I began the character over a year ago taking Arcane Trickster as my subclass and mixing in a few levels of Wild Magic Sorcery. I never really felt in the skin of that character for some reason and wanted to have him die so I could come to the table with something more to my liking. My DM was very against having the personality and character of my PC be lost to the story. He, instead, wove a transformation of the character's class into the story. I kept the multi-class idea by going 3 levels of Archfey Warlock and 4 levels of Phantom. The ability to change out a proficiency in a skill or tool set, I've found, is very useful. I will usually take Survival or Medicine when we are travelling and switch it for a social skill when we get into town. I especially like the offset it affords me when I have a skill with a -1 mod due to a low score. I haven't had a ton of chances to use the Wails From the Grave ability because we've not been in those tactical positions with multiple targets, and I think that's because my DM is brilliant at making combat a challenge. But when I do, I use Green Flame Blade cantrip, attack with sneak, and wail on them. Thanks for making the videos, gentleman. I really appreciate your discourse.
also, soul trinkets are great for RPing as memories of fallen comrades, regretful victims or even trophies of honor to carry. Also really good for closure/saying last goodbyes when a death catches you off guard.
My brother played a soulknife in our home game when it was still Unearthed Arcana. He had a ton of fun with it, and even then it seemed like a really useful and well-made subclass. He was pretty much always able to do what he wanted to do in and out of combat. This is going on my list of potential subclass choices if I ever play a rogue.
With the Wails of the Grave feature, one thing that didn't get brought up is the lack of Extra Attack for the Rogue. Although you are limited in the amount of times that you can use the feature, it does allow for a pseudo extra attack, that always hits and would do more damage anyways.
I have an idea on how to improve the Assassin subclass and would like your opinion: 1) Combine the two Social Abilities 2) Where the second social ability was, replace with the following: Flash Bomb: Once per short rest you can craft Flash bombs equal to your proficiency bonus minus one. You can only have a number of Flash Bombs equal to your proficiency bonus minus one. During combat, as a bonus action, you can throw one Flash Bomb at an enemy. The enemy makes a constitution saving throw (DC 8 + Dexterity Mod + Proficiency Mod). On an failed save a creature becomes blind for a turn and is susceptible to the Assassinate Ability.
I have to give it to you 100% I I convinced our kobold party member (pack tactics ftw!) to be a soul knife after intense study of all the possibilities Is when he was feeling overwhelmed and he has easily racked up the highest damage and most kills in our party because of a low magic setting and having to having 2 magic weapons at a very early levery early level. I really love your rating videos because they always feel always feel like you understand how I see the classes.
*NOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!* PLEASE NO! The way Stunning Strike works is already op, with Monks having *A TON* of attempts in a single turn. If i had to buff this thing, i would just make them regain Ki points on Short Rests, that would make the whole class way better.
@@heyfell4301 I think you might be trolling. They already get their Ki points back on a short rest. And stunning strike is not as good as it looks on paper. It targets CON, which most monsters have at least a positive save modifier for (and often a high one) and the save DC scales off a secondary stat for the monk, and it drains the single resource they have for all their class features.
@@Zhukov087 no, i'm not trolling. I didn't know that Monks recover it on Short Rests, i don't usually play as a Monk, and my only experiences are mostly just: "oh, did i hit him 4 times? Guess he's fucked up, take this 4 CON saves biiiiiiiiiiitch". It's like the Smite of Paladinsn, you can't nerf it without making the class useless, but you can't buff it without making it too powerful, it's a core feature and the only reason why someone would play as a Monk during the mid-levels (they have a REALLY big gap between their early and late levels).
Hi guys, another great video! But you should put a flashing lights warning on this, the mind blades bit is great but could trigger seizures in photosensitive folks
Phantom is my favorite rogue subclass so far. That said, it's really not meant for low levels of play. This story's not really a testament to Phantom's strength, more of a funny story that showcases one of its weaknesses. Got to 3rd level as a Phantom, first thing I faced was a boss monster, didn't get to use Wails from the Grave because only one enemy, nearly won, then got brought from max hp to over my negative maximum in one turn (low con moment). Didn't get to enjoy my favorite subclass. Had a bunch of skill proficiencies though. Was proficient with all but 6 skills I think. Did any of them come up in the campaign? no, but it was cool to look at on my stat sheet.
Soulknife is probably my favorite thing to come out of Tasha's, and I absolutely designed a villain for my campaign who was a psychic, shapeshifting assassin, whom the party narrowly avoided once. Love this subclass. Thank you for another great video.
Soulknife, imo, helps to make one of the most powerful rule-breaking classes. By taking a few levels of Lore Bard & Knowledge Cleric (and the right choices of feats), you can get proficiency in every skill, allowing your Psionic Knack & your Reliable Talent to make it where you never fail any skill check.
I started off variant human with the skill expert feat and took the skilled feat at level 4 I had 11 proficiencies and currently at level six I have expertise in five of those and rarely ever fail any skill checks.
Playing a soulknife and mastermind in two different campaigns and yeah the soulknife is just so much fun all around. The psychic communication is game changing.
Great timing for this video. My rogue player has been very indecisive about his subclass and is running out of time to choose. We're doing some prologue sessions to warm up, but soon we'll be going into Waterdeep: Dragon Heist and playing it very espionage/black ops. This helped me show him how good the Soulknife could be in this campaign context. He's also eyeing Arcane Trickster (because of course because it's awesome). We'll see what he chooses.
I feel ghost walk is one of the best features of any class. Sure, if you end your turn inside a wall or something, you take a bit of force damage, but what can the enemy do to you? Attacks can't hit you inside the wall, many spells can't either and there are not really many things that can get you, for a measly cost of some hit points that, at that level, is not too much price to pay compared to the safety you have and the damage you avoid from additional enemies, area of effects, spells and the likes. Imo, ghost walk is broken.
Soul knife multi class into fighter, use main action to throw knife to teleport, use extra attack to teleport again, use action surge to teleport, BOOM unchained movement.
Edit: I made one in DnDBeyond. I think there could be sort of a re-evaluation done to see how the steady aim feature impacts the various rogue subclasses. The mechanical ripple effect that the steady aim feature has can drastically change combat in various situations. These impacts are different for a large portion of the rogue subclasses.
Since I usually go first in combat, steady aim happens every combat.......throw a dagger....oh look....sneak attack.....oh look.....another enemy takes 3d6 necrotic....sweet.....I love the phantom thematically and utility wise....I would prolly lean towards low s, high a...in the right circumstances...
I played in a game where one of us was playing the Soul Knife, and to be honest it felt a little *too* strong. The abilities feel so versatile and have so many uses, which makes it crazy strong. The ability to just succeed on every single ability check, with a safety net of not even spending a resource if it fails, is really oppressive. They ended up changing to an arcane trickster and it felt a lot better to play with.
In the campaign I am dming I have a soul knife changling in my party. He then purchased the magic Ooze, and a suit of studded glamor armor. He is the definition of slippery, but it’s a lot of fun watching him slip in and either get in trouble or get really good information on their enemies.
Some stuff I thought about Phantom Rogue: The extra damage can be used against an enemy spellcaster or to keep your barbarian friend raging at lower levels; also, you can aways carry a bag of rats to get more trinkets if I'm not mistaken.
As the soul knife you could also take 2 levels in warlock to get disguise self at will and maybe mage armor at will or devil sight (the eldritch feat may also work)
Tokens of the Departed is worded a bit poorly, but it still seems clear. You get "a sliver of its life essence", not the creature's soul. The confusion comes because they decided to name the things "soul trinkets", but I feel like that's just poorly thought out writing. Apart from the name, there's nothing to indicate you trap the creature's soul, as all other spells and features that actually do so explicitly use "soul".
As always, love your analysis of the classes youre presenting. I’m currently running a multi class Soulknife (L9) paired with Shadow Monk (L6). There’s so much utility and movement capability for this combination. It is an absolute blast to play.
I'm currently playing Phantom rogue in a Descent into Avernus campaign. The roleplay flavor alone that Phantom allows is amazing if you have a DM that will lean into it. I looted a random ring off of a murder victim in water deep...her spirit gave me advantage on a roll to rile up a crowd for an arm wrestling contest at the elfsong because she herself was a performer. It's a blast!
I jumped into a campaign last night at level 13 and decided to try out a multiclassed Path of the Ancestral Guardian Barbarian and Phantom Rogue. I’m telling you, this was a flavorful and exciting character concept. I suggest looking into it.
Just as a side note for the Soul Knife: (RAW) You can't use your Psychic Blades to make attacks of opportunity (As they manifest as part of taking an Attack action) and you can't use them to cast Booming Blade/Green Flame Blade (due to the manifesting as an action and that the melee cantrips requiring a weapon with a 1gp value.)
I love playing my Soulknife. One thing you guys didn’t mention: the Psychic Whispers can also be re-used with psychic die. And something I recently realized, the psychic blades can only be used with the attack ACTION. Opportunity attacks don’t help you much.
My DM has made a fun home rule for the Phantom, he gives me the soul trinkets at level 3 and only gives me the question feature while the advantage on con saves comes online at level 5 and the advantage on death saves and the other feature comes online at level 9. It’s made it feel a lot more rewarding
On the Phantom Rogue: If you're doing a skill check heavy campaign, the ability of the phantom rogue to choose any tool or skill proficiency on short/long rest with no daily limit is great.
To make it easier on what skills I dont have...my dm let me (during a 3 month downtime) let my character just kinda hang out and chill in a cemetery...communicating and training with the ghosts.....I can swap out any of my learned proficiencies with another and even expertise......but I can only have 3 expertise at a time and still have to do the 1 point switched per long rest....its not broken and makes it way easier on my character sheet lol
I agree with all of your assessments of the subclasses except thief. In not just roleplay but also from a mechanic perspective it is an icon of an aspect of what the rogue was always meant to do. To a lot of rogue players the main objective is to steal and this subclass augments that the best evenly and consistently. It is an A class in my opinion. Excellent job of outlining all these subclasses and explaining them S+
@Alaberti Green Flame Blade is really something that most Rogues won't even think about thanks to the Booming Blade. They have very limited cantrips, so expending it just so they can have AoE is just not as good. For Acid Splash and Create Bonfire, just remember: intelligence is probably a tertiary attribute for Rogues, do attack rolls and saving throws are not as good as guaranteed damage.
@Alaberti a good AoE that's consistent and scales with level is a pretty big deal, if you ask me. You're using the Arcane Trickster as a comparison, but just invisible Mage Hand already beats the AoE of the Phantom, that shit is overpower. The Phantom will never get to S tier, but when compared to the Scout, yes, i really thinks AoE is better than reactive movement. If compared to an S tier, Wails from the Grave isn't that big of a deal, but when compared to the A tier, it's really powerful.
I’m in the process of multiclassing my halfling ancestral guardians barbarian (with thrown weapon fighting taken as a feat) with phantom rogue. I’m really excited because my goofy halfling ghosts will be able to distract an enemy that’s trying to hit my friends, reduce damage as a reaction to my friends, give me an extra skill after a long rest, and do extra damage when I hit a sneak attack. I’m pretty sure it’s a suboptimal build, but it’s fun so far!
The problem with the Soul Knife is that you MUST use the psychic blade for all of it's features. It makes magic daggers near useless. You also can't make opportunity attacks with the psychic blades so it can be clunky. Other than that it is great.
Oh man, Ive put together a Soul Knife kenku rogue for an upcoming game im in. This combo was great for RP as It is going to allow me to play with the kenku mimicry while also being able to communicate in times a need by being able to connect telepathically to other players in the group.
Scout gets a REACTION to move half your speed without provoking opportunity attacks and expertise in Nature or Survival. That's it. That's all they get before level 9. Are you telling me that a free 50% damage increase to sneak attack (the main thing you do as a Rogue) and a free proficiency in a skill that you don't have after a short rest (which you can do multiple times a day) is worse than that? If Scout is an A, then Phantom is definitely an A.
One thing not mentioned is that the soul knife rogue's invisibility does not end when you cast a spell. So if you're going to play to at least Level 13, pick up Minor Illusion, either as a racial ability such as from High Elf, or from a feat such as Magic Initiate. Minor illusion doesn't have a verbal component. Let that sink in for a moment. Minor illusion doesn't have a verbal component. They can't see you because you're invisible. They can't hear you because you're silent. No one knows you're casting a spell. In fact, no one knows you're there at all. Steal an item and make it appear it's still there while you beat a hasty retreat unseen. Create treasure or other bait to lure your enemies into a trap without them realizing there's anyone nearby. Or if you want to be particularly cruel, find one of your enemies alone, and torment him with horrifying visions and sounds. Imagine the shenanigans you can pull off by casting Minor Illusion every 6 seconds for an hour without anyone knowing what's causing it. It's insane.
Currently playing a Phantom Rogue in a Curse of Strahd campaign. I agree that it comes online late, so I decided to take feats to make up for it. I took telekinetic and shadow touched. I flavored Mage Hand as ghost friends grabbing things, etc. Invisibility and Disguise Self are also just super useful and easy to add that spectral flavor too (kill people and take their faces with Disguise Self for instance). Also, my DM gave me a pretty cool magic item that essentially gives me the Arcane Trickster Mage Hand Legerdemain feature adding to my feat choice, as well as access to some other spells (unseen servant for instance) that further add to the ghost theme. Wails from the Grave has helped finish off enemies all the time, a lot more than I expected tbh. I also just love the extra skill. We're just a four man party and being able to switch around based on what we need atm has actually come in handy. I just think its a fun and flavorful subclass that fits really well in certain campaigns.
My brother used the Soulknife’s teleportation ability to throw the knife into the air, attack someone and then blink back to where he was at the start of his turn. Not allowable strictly RAW, but the Rule of Cool is used liberally at my table
I agree with your take on Phantom Rogue I've been dming a one shot mini campaign (10th level) and one of my players has a phantom rogue. He seems to love it but he was particularly sad beause he almost didnt use his Wail of the Grave ability until like the third session (when the party finally went rogue against a group of minions). He is always using his trinket shenanigans to pick souls for flavour but, in all honesty it kinda conflicts with things like uncanny dodge (which is usually far better).
I've played a phantom rogue and by far it is my favorite class to rp. So much adding to the rp aspect of the character. The ability to pick up a skill whenever I need to has saved the campaign many times. And yes the ability to affect more than one target is amazing which I argue is stronger at low levels.
Also with the soulknife you can make your psichyc blades be whatever you agree with your DM to be. I'm cretaing a rogue soulknife that instead of psichyc blades will be throwing magical cards. If you have imagination it can be a lot of different things.
Phantom Rogue. Thought I'll share my friend's use while it was in UA and maybe it'll help someone playing it. To start, they enjoy playing rogues, are good at getting sneak attacks, and only used this character lv 1-12. They didn't think high of this class until they played more as a 'clean up'. Basically, have a group of creatures which at least one was hurt, then sneak attack the least damaged, wails from the grave the hurt one, if either made it, then BA attack. Many encounters felt he was landing 1-3 killing hits each round. Downside, this often requires good teamwork from 1 or 2 other players.
I fixed Psi warrior a bit and fortunately my great DM (my big regards to you Daniel) decided to accept my changes. I moved the feature from the seventh level which knocks target prone to the third level and combined it with the related skill. On the seventh level I added the telekinetic feat but without ability increase. On tenth level I just added telepathic feat, also without ability increase. Now I don't have to spend my 2 "Ability Increase" levels to just take these feats in order to feel like a Jedi.
I ran a Swashbuckler in my campaign as a dmnpc. Totally lethal. I might try a Soulknife in a new campaign, but that'll be a while for this group. Good video, thanks.
These subclasses are actually S tier for villianous npcs, a soul stealing hooded figure chasing your party, an order of psychic elite assassins murdering key npcs. Awesome!
Idk, I really like the idea of phantom rogues being an order loyal to the person in power (good or evil) as their personal CIA/MI6/etc.
Phantom Rogues working for a Lich to collect souls is a phenomenal idea
Oh I'm definitely riffing on this for my Dune-inspired game. If I make that order of psychic assassins an all-woman affair, then I'll have a good skeleton on which to build a Bene Gesserit stand-in
I was going to say the same thing
Omg I have a soul knife rogue hunting my party that they don’t know about and gave them a few levels in fighter so they get extra attack and then can use their bonus action to attack again. Giving them three attacks basically
The extra damage from the Wails of the Grave could be more advantageous than you realize. If the secondary damage targets a spellcaster concentrating on a spell, the spellcaster gets no save and must make a concentration check. This can be helpful, especially when the spellcaster out of reach.
It's also a decent way to thin out crowds of weaker minions if your party lacks AOE.
I was gonna say something like that.
And THERE IS NO WAY TO AVOID IT. That's the key here. Maybe the enemy is hard to hit, but if you can hit a minion, you can hit them. Added in to the rest you mentioned...
Its even better if you shoot one and then hit a second spell caster, cause sometimes dms do that and you can cancel 2 concentrations at once
@@ryanpeters3812 omg I haven thought about that, what about have rats for situations like that.... Muajajjajajaja (even could work for a BBEG that just stab other things and inflict direct damage, like some kind of curse or voodoo magic)
The cool thing with Soul Tokens is that you don't have to be the killer, you just have to see it happen.
"Oh no! Jack-the-NPC was just killed! He's the only one who knows where the Antler Dagger is!"
"No sweat, I'm on it."
For the wail of the grave ability,
You could hit a lower AC target and get a free hit on a tougher enemy.
I was thinking something similar as well. I think an item that summons weak creatures can be incredibly useful to farm coins and to damage opponents who otherwise couldn’t be touch.
DM - “The BBEG has 40 AC so you stand no chance and must run.”
Fighter - “I throw a fluffy ball out of my bag of Tricks next to the BBEG and (rolls dice) summon a bunny.”
Rogue - “I attack the bunny from the shadow, triggering my sneak attack which also damages the BBEG. I also get a soul coin from the bunny.”
DM - 😑
@@1.21jiggawatts2 the image of a complete psycho who carries arround tiny animals to sacrifice like a maniac cultist in order to kill people easier is just perfect. It's a well known fact that most people who are violent because of this kind of mental disturb start their "career" by hurting small animals so is a very creepy and somehow realistic vibe.
All i can think about is like a tiny kid with a lot of pets that they murder while in combat in the most cruel and horrifying way during combat.
I actually did this to guarantee a kill on an enemy sorcerer, I attacked a downed enemy who wasn't dead; since they're incapacitated, it was an autocrit and blew the sorcerer right up.
@@willclevett7560 that's amazing. My dm would hate and love you
@@willclevett7560 * concern *
I also like the idea of Wails of the Grave as a finisher for nearly dead enemies. Rather than wasting all of my sneak attack damage and overall burst on a heavily bloodied enemy, I can disengage, run up to his full health friend, sneak attack that guy, and let the necrotic damage spill over to the one who was almost dead, killing him and doing far more to our next target.
Don't even need to run anywhere if you go ranged 😉
Which at level 9, grants you a trinket which you can use to do it again and again. You can really start pumping out damage with that ability and start using almost every sneak attack. It's also amazing for making a guaranteed concentration check or bypassing nearly any defense.
Also, if you're ranged, Wails of the Grave hits an enemy 30 feet from the target, not you. So you can really start doing damage to some enemies before they can even get close to you.
"When a life ends in your presence, you're able to snatch a token from the departing soul, a sliver of its life essence that takes phyiscal form" Yeah I would never rule this as trapping a soul, it tells you in two different ways that it is only taking a small sliver/token of the souls essence, not completely trapping the soul. That would be busted.
I'm with you on that. If the DM wants to do some particular spin on it, I'd suggest it be tied to a particular quest or something. I think they mentioned a lich wanting a soul, then allow the lich to in some way temporarily enhance it or give them an item that uses the ability so they can capture a single soul, and one that has to be particularly powerful and worthy. Or if you want to capture the soul of a party member whose soul on death will belong to some evil entity in order to save them, maybe that would make a nice quest line.
For all purposing a very repeatable skill for something like that sounds crazy to me. But to each (table) their own, I suppose.
"When revivified, you notice you're missing your pinky toe."
*Dammit rogue!*
"Sorry!"
Agreed. I was about to post the same thing. (Good thing I checked for existing comments this time!)
It would definitely break some games.
Consider that Soul Cage is a 6th level spell
I personally like the idea of it being a small sliver, not enough to keep them on the material plane, but enough to call them back when they are needed
"It answers as concisely as possible wanting to be free"
I think that Phantom's low level abilities are being very underestimated here. Having a free extra proficiency that you can swap around to whatever you need that day is very potent, and extra damage is extra damage, especially when that second creature doesn't make any save or anything against it, provided you hit the first one. Sure they aren't as good as the early features of the S tier Rogues, but it's still quite better than what Thief and Mastermind get at early levels.
It's also better than scout's first 9 levels of, "here's some reaction-based movement, then some fairly eh proficiencies, and more speed at level 9!" Yet Monty somehow convinced Kelly phantom was worse.
Sure scales better and is more versatile than Sweeping Attack.
@@Iceblade423 Still will never get over Sweeping Attack being bad. It's a fantasy that I think most people want to have in a medieval-fantasy fight to cleave through multiple enemies with one strike, and it doesn't deliver on that at all
@@TheWayOfTheWott Yeah, I decided to replace it with 50/50 damage split: roll all damage as normal with the superiority die. Deal half to target and half to adjacent target (if you beat its AC as well with your hit)
Agreed. While I don't necessarily vibe with the Phantom's flavor, the idea of a floating proficiency in *whatever you're going to need that day* is pretty amazing.
I feel like you two are sleeping on Whispers of the Dead. Having an extra proficiency you can swap out on a short rest is potentially huge. Especially if you know what you might expect from the adventure. Trudging through the wilds? Grab Survival. Doing research? You're an expert in Arcana, Religion or History now. Need to identify a disease or a cause of death? Grab Medicine. Going up against a Vampire? Acrobatics to get out of their grapples.
Just the ability to say 'give me an hour and I'm an expert in exactly the thing we need' is *really* good right off the bat, and gets *insane* when you pick Reliable Talent at 11th level. This ability alone I feel puts Phantom in A tier from the lower levels onwards.
Thing is rogues already get so many profiencies, a rogue has a minimum of 6 skill and 2 other profiencies. And most races give one too, so having that extra one at that point isn't as versatile as you make it out to be
@@willwalsh7591 It absolutely is. Rogues get 4 skills at level 1. Then 2 from their background. So there's your 6.
Out of 18 skills.
You probably grabbed stealth, sleight of hand, acrobatics and perception. So that's 4.
And I think you're overlooking tool and vehicle proficiencies. Which are not as easy to come by.
@@adamkaris not all skills come up as often as each other, some skills will be covered by other party members, having proficiency doesn't change it being an off stat based skill, and you can often justify doing almost the same thing using a different skill that you are proficient wirh.
It's not gonna be as big as you're thinking.
@@YMasterS I'm playing a Phantom Rogue, currently lvl 5 (plus a single lvl in fighter), and it absolutely is big. It doesn't come up every session, but it does come up frequently enough to be impactful and when it does, every time it's clutch.
It's an incredibly *versatile* skill, that lets you patch whichever hole you need, and the usefulness of that is hard to quantify versus, say, something that deals extra damage, but I assure you if you're looking for opportunities to use Whispers of the Dead, you will find them. A lot.
And it swaps on a short rest as well, so you don't need to pick one for the day. If something comes up along the way you can take a break and restart with proficiency.
One point not mentioned on phantom is that the extra damage on a second target helps address one challenge for Rogues which is dealing with numerous smaller enemies. Almost like giving you extra attack on your rogue which is nice.
One thing worth considering is that if the DM uses the optional Cleave rule from the DMG, and particularly if they allow it to work with Sneak Attack, then this feature of the Phantom gets devalued a good bit (at least against groups of smaller enemies).
@@MrTwrule That's the problem with optional/house rules, it can really undermine some class/subclass features. How much better is the Thief's Fast Hands feature in a table that didn't houserule drinking potions as a bonus action?
Honestly, it would be great if you could increase the number of creatures targeted.
Maybe spend 2 trinkets per extra target combined with the ghostly visage you can turn into and you can become death incarnated
An Arcane Trickster has to use spell slots for most of those things though, and the Soulknife gets more uses for things like invisibility and teleportation.
The Soulknife has to use dice, which are pretty comparable. They do get a few more uses of their abilities and are more flexible in how they can spend their dice to use their different powers though. In exchange, AT gets cantrips, access to some abilities that the Soul Knife can't replicate with its base kit, and gains access to many comparable abilities sooner than the Soul Knife does. Overall, I think the two subclasses are pretty well balanced against one another.
@@MrTwrule While the Soulknife indeed doesn't get cantrips and spell slots, one thing important to note is that their features can't be counterspelled as a result.
The soulknife is better for movement and combat.. the Arcane trickster is better at thievery, Spellcasting
The Phantom is the deadliest of the 3 combat wise, with the soul trinkets at higher lvs..
Currently playing a Soulknife myself and is AMAZING, specially the Psy-Blades, god do i love having infinite ammo for ranged attacks!
Also telepathy works GREAT for roleplaying moments, we've had him establish the Mind-Link with a character being interrogated by guards and essentially work as a "cheat-sheet" feeding the right answers to our party member so the guards didn't suspected any foul-play during the interrogation!
(Ended making him a "Homunculus" with Tasha's Custom Lineage and my DM helped me flavor his psionic powers as the result of being part of the BBEG's "Magic Clone Army" he is making to act as his secret assassins/spies, my char broke free from the Charm controlling him and his personal quest is to eventually assasinate the BBEG and free his Homunculi "Siblings")
I played a Soul Knife Gnome from levels 1-15. Very unassuming and I wrecked shop. But the ability that as a parrlty we found the most useful was what they called the Psychic Battle Network. That telepathic communication combined with our Bard's Seeming made is the ultimate infiltration team.
One of my players is a Soulknife. They love the telepathy aspect.
The party was on a guild quest chasing after an escaped prisoner in the mountains, and met another guild team doing another mission but in the same location.
Although they converse with the NPCs just fine, there were a lot of mind talk going on too, so from the npcs' pov, the party communicated via gestures and body language, even in battle.
They were impressed on the party being a well oiled machine and how close they must be to function like that.
(Grin) in-game, the party has been together a week at best.
Kind of to push some extra ammo for Kelly: One of the issues with Rogue Subclasses is that they don't get a ton of features on their own as Rogue Base is brimming with abilities. All Rogues also have huge gaps in time for the sub class abilities. Rogues only get new abilities at 3rd, 9th, 13th, and 17th levels. Since most campaigns only get up to lvl 12 or so.... you wouldn't see that 13th level ability in plenty of campaigns, and in just a handful. A Ranger is 3rd, 7th, 11th, and 15th. So most rangers would get 3 of their class actions. Rogue is just backloaded on their abilities universally. And no other class has as large of a gap between their 1st and 2nd abilities 3 > 9. Only Cleric has a larger gap between any abilities and that's 8>17, while Cleric is front loaded with tons of other stuff. Thus I think when looking at the whole of Rogue Subclasses internally, the practicality of their early abilities is important, but the best features not being available till later is generally not as strong an argument on Rogue. The ability to spread Sneak Attack damage is a bit stronger and more useful early on. When you look at an Assassin, who also modifies Sneak Attack with their early ability, their next 2 abilities are a let down. When looking at Rogue sub classes, you kind of have to think of them all in terms of a high level campaign. But I think the feature you get early on are things you're gonna make a lot of use out of. And Kelly makes a strong point when he's saying Boss Battles don't make up that much of what you actually do in D&D, and more specifically... Single Monster encounters don't make up that much, as even bosses have some smaller creatures with them.
The ability to spread damage will always be underestimated for a good reason: it always seems better when you're dealing high numbers on the target, but you don't realise as often how much D&d is based on Action Economy, and the importance of having ways to take away the largest amount of targets as fast as possible.
That's why i didn't like Fireball when i first started on D&d, like: "everyone says this is overpowered, but the fighter still does at least half the amount of damage than this shit, every single turn", without realizing the amount of enemies i was blowing up with one use of that.
A problem that i often face when DMing a boss battle is how much the players ignore the minions, just for them to surround the party and start stabbing them to death. The ability to take out a minion on a single hit, and still transfer some damage for the boss is great for a midigator, because while the Fighter or the Barbarian have an insane damage, the Rogue is way more consistent, and being able to cause a bit of an AoE is amazing for this purpose.
They can focus on the tiny annoying minions, while dealing that sweet damage to the boss.
I think the only problem with the Phantom is that, by releasing it along with the Soulknife, it lost the attention it deserves, because it's obvious what's the better subclass here. I dunno, i feel like it would be a more fair competition if the tokens were available at level 3, in this case the only thing the level 9 ability would give is the Wails From the Grave bonus uses, that would make the subclass feel way more unique and creepy early on.
Kelly's hair looks magnificent.
We're always talking about how glorious Kelly's hair and beard is, but no one seems to talk about how CLEAN Monty's hair and beard are.
Always
I was jus about to "Like" your comment, but that would change the 69 so... yeah not worth it
@@alfonsocruz6100 k
It’s not hair… It’s a mane.
I like the idea of a Phantom Rogue with the Investigator background. He/she uses their connection to spirits to resolve ghost’s unfinished business
You have to witness or cause the death. So as cool as this would be to play out, it doesn’t work.
You’d be right there the entire time, so you’d know who killed them (you or Dave, the bad guy). And if *you* killed them, why would they want you to help them afterwards? You just killed them, now you wanna help them achieve peace? Fat chance.
This idea plays out better with a character that just has Speak With Dead and they just happen upon dead peeps.
Dude it's like the sixth sense or like doctor sleep
Don't forget that rogues get Reliable Talent at 11th level. I know, still higher level, but as a complete package with the Phantom subclass that can be a gamechanger. The ability to roll a minimum 10 on a deception, investigation, insight, etc even though that isn't your thing can unlock a lot of new things for the rogue
I also want to mention, these videos have felt a little more like ranking the subclasses linearly, rather than in a tier list. A tier-list is fluid and each item can be ignorant of its siblings, because they don't detract from the tier it's been placed in. However, the constant comparison to the Arcane Trickster makes these rankings feel a little more like we're looking for "What's better than the AT?", rather than "How do each of these subclasses augment and accent the Rogue class's overall strengths?" I still enjoyed the series, and the other classes as well. But I kinda wish everything wasn't compared to the AT, since the fact that that's S (maybe SS) in your ranking shouldn't impact the idea that the Soulknife is also S, for example.
Yeah, I enjoyed the video well enough but it was starting to get annoying hearing everything compared to the Arcane Trickster.
The AT is the Polearm Master of the Rogue - everything gets compared to it.
Yes! Arcane Trickster basically comes out as either brokenly good, or really sub-par, depending on option selections they very briefly glossed over, and then it was used as a club through the rest of this section of the series. Not in spirit, nor in the parameters given at the beginning of each video. That's very disappointing, as it's tainted their reviews of all the other Rogue subclasses inescapably. Poor form, especially from Monty, who seemed more focused on the point.
Its good to mention Phantom rogues Whisper of the Dead really add to the reliable talent you get at 11th. Its a guaranteed 14 plus minus whatever your proficiency is for that skill/tool, you just need foresight to pick up the proficiency
Correct me if I’m wrong, but couldn’t you use the Phantom’s Tokens of the Dead feature on freshly fallen party members? It would potentially make for some interesting role play at first, and then follow it up with a cool quest to return them to the land of the living.
I'd ask your DM. Mechanically I don't see why not.
Yeah, rules wise, you only need to see the character die, you don't need to be the one to kill them. (Even more interesting is, if you were meeting with an informant for crucial info and they get killed before you get the info, you're not screwed because you can ask the Soul Token you got from them)
With PCs it could be awkward given how it written it implys the soul is bound to the trinket till the phantom breaks it. That would make resurrection impossible as the soul isn't free to be resurrected and that's one requirement for all resurrection type spells along with the soul willing to be ressurected. Plus not sure why you'd do that to a PC unless you know the player isn't wanting their character to be ressurected or has already agreed to it. Cause even if the DM 2oukd be ok with the player might not be.
Or just have someone who can cast revivify, this seems... extra
@@TheJerbol True but your party might not always have that spell. I know a DM that doesn't like spells like that because they think it takes away the suspense of death in the game.
Phantom really gets the A just for wails of the grave, its so much extra damage.
The only thing that's kinda weird with the Soul Knife, though I agree it's one of the best and my favorite rogue subclass, RAW you can't perform Opportunity Attacks with your Psychic Blades. I handwaved it for my player so that he can use the blades for Opportunity Attacks and Intimidation purposes and he absolutely had a blast playing a Soul Knife.
Also for Arcane Tricksters, you really need to get them good spells or it won't be as good a Soul Knife's base kit.
Anyways, I love the content and I can't wait for Shadows to be back.
By opportunity attacks you mean like Sneak Attacks or am i missing something?
(Still new to DnD, my DM lets me do sneak attacks with them because "Rules as Written" sneak attack says you need either a Finesse or Ranged weapon for sneak attack and the Psychic Blades HAVE the Finesse & Thrown Properties)
No problem. Basically, you can still do opportunity attacks with a normal weapon and still sneak attack with it. Its just that RAW, the Psychic Blades specifically says "Whenever you take the Attack action, you can manifest the Psychic blades and attack with it". Meaning you can't use a Reaction to do an Opportunity Attack with the Psychic Blades. But yea, I also allowed my Opportunity Attacks with the Psychic Blades and even in social interactions.
@@beastwithin7772 Wel technically they can draw a short sword after the first round. Which is often better anyway as its a d6 and most likely is a +1 at least once that becomes relevant. Just means missing out on honing strikes with your offhand realistically.
One thing I noticed. No where does it say that Token of the Departed needs to be an enemy, it could also be a fallen ally or a fallen NPC. The idea of an ally giving you advantage on death and CON saving throws is an interesting roleplay option.
"you're able to snatch a token from the departing soul, *a sliver of its life essence"*
You're not soul-trapping the target. All soul-trapping effects specify that the target cannot be resurrected without a saving throw or a use of the Wish spell
An important question to ask though would the sliver of soul be able to be affected by a say, Resurrection or Reincarnate since it is a bit of soul.
would a wish be able to completely bring a new body and new life to the Soul sliver?
Or cannyou use that sliver to Clone the Original target?
@@ChitenBugMan As per the spell Clone, you cannot, as it's not "at least 1 cubic inch of flesh of the creature that is to be cloned"
As for Wish, that, like many other uses of the Wish spell, probably depends on the DM
Meh, I’d dm that in behind the curtain. It’s flavorful and has ramifications I can exploit or run with. Also in my world the big magic items can only be made with or traded for soul shards. So yeah, I can bake this in with some modifications
Monty "but arcane trickster has spells" martin, shooting down every subclass, arcane trickster is good, but spell slots are VERY limited on it, i think you have overhyped one subclass that has led you to massively undervalue every single other subclass
Also it is an S ranking subclass. Therefore an A is still worse but good. I think it is an A for sure.
Also there are a lot of enchantment and illusion spells that require your full action or concentration so you can't use them in combat or you have to really worry about getting hit.
But they have spells
The psionic blades rogue honestly felt completely broken when I played it with my friends
I like how he called himself out in the last video yet he STILL is using it to influence his rankings with these subclasses. Like dude, not everything has to be spell focused ffs
The Phantom feels like an A. A low A, but an A. The cry of the grave feature hits the second target without a save. A high AC enemy with a minion just has a new weak point. This might not be the strongest, but its guaranteed damage matters.
The soul blade... is an S. There's no way it isn't. All the options it has can't be countered, unlike the arcane trickster, and you have a free usage once per long rest. And the swashbuckler has the same free usage flexibility, which made it S too.
All in all, Tasha's was solid for rogues. Unlike some other classes, it didn't raise the bar, but matched the subclasses perfectly.
Well said
He said dnd instead of dungeons and dragons in the intro, that was weird for a moment
Also wonderful content!!!
Edit: Kelly is wearing a The Evil Dead shirt. I love Evil Dead, Army of Darkness, and Ash vs Evil Dead. Which, his shirt may not be referencing them cause I see the The. Just wanted to mention it
He did last video too, i was also... Actually distraught heh
Have to say I found the phantom to be very versatile, I leaned into the magic and took magic initiate, so had familiar and green flame blade anyway as well as message, while an arcane trickster can't take wails. Since we rarely faced only a single enemy in our campaign, I would say damage from my phantom rogue was generally very high.
Its worth mentioning that you can add your dex damage to the soul knife bonus action attack! It makes it so freakin good.
"All you get is an extra proficiency that you can swap out..."
You mean the same thing that was one of the main arguments people widely used for why the Mystic was completely broken? And you're acting like it's nothing? I'm confused...
WOTC really took the Mystic class and made entire subclasses based off of the abilities it got.
I thought the main reason why the mystic was broken was because it had subclasses to do anything the other classes could do but better
@@RealMiniLink There were several reasons that were commonly cited. One was the ability to be proficient in any skill. Another was the mid-level power of the mystic, which was exceptionally high... although it didn't grow really after that.
Then there were smaller less common reasons people gave, like the high AC it could get, the high speed it could move, or the multiple concentration thing.
The "can do anything other classes can do but better" thing didn't last long for a couple of reason. Firstly, it's not the only class that could fill every role. Secondly, it didn't hold up under any scrutiny. It was simply a false conception. The cleric out healed it by a million miles, the wizard out magicked it, the paladin out nova-ed it, and the barbarian out tanked it. It was a better allrounder then most classes, but it didn't outperform the most specialised classes. The bard also outperformed it at being an allrounder.
Overall, the Mystic was broken in terms of power, but only at mid level, and only in "low combat" adventuring days because it ran out of steam very quickly if it tried to perform other classes (for example it's super powerful nova attacks could only be used 3 times in an entire day, and they were wasted if it missed unlike the paladins nova). But that's what counted for most people since that's how most people play and the level most people play at.
I really love the phantom, and like you said too, it doesnt come online until REALLY high lvls, but that just means i can just go full rogue and not look back. Its features are amazing and i feel like so many things can be done with them, and i cant wait for the next campaign, coz im gonna play the phantom rogue then
Same. If I knew I was starting at lvl 9 or higher I'd definitely go phantom.
I hear what both of you are saying about the extra damage on the phantom, but I agree with Kelly that it may be more useful than first perceived especially when factoring in minions
I'm a little disappointed no one refered to the Soul Knife as attacking "with the focused totality of their psychic powers" like how Psylocke would in X-Men, since it's the biggest example in pop culture. Heck, even the art in Tasha's looks similar.
I want to make a Soul Knife and take the Telekinetic feat and that lovely invisible Mage Hand like how the Arcane Trickster gets but with that wonderful Shove action added in.
Another Soul Knife was Tandy Bowen, a.k.a. Dagger, in Marvel's Cloak & Dagger (2017-19 on ABC).
I thought of Psylocke a lot, but also Blink, since she developed the ability to throw psychic blades that would open portals where it landed. So similar.
Tandy Bowen is a good call too. Have a Soul Knife and a Phantom together and you've got Cloak and Dagger.
@joshuakirtley6986 yes this!
Wish I could thumbs up your comment twice!
While I also agree with the interpretation that the Phantom's spil trinkets are souls you trapped, that is somewhat called into question with its level 13 ability that just gives you a soul trinket if you don't have one after a long rest. Where did that soul trinket come from? If it functions like the ones the subclass makes, how was that soul trapped and when? Is the soul inside related to the rogue at all? Does it have to be someone the rogue killed at any point beforehand?
@NullLex00 Agreed. If they can contact spirits using Whispers of The Dead because the souls "cling to them" then who is to say they can't pluck one away to make a soul trinket?
I’m currently trying to build Arsene Lupin as a NPC to have fun interactions and roleplay with my party, and now that I watched all the Rogue subclass tiers I’m thinking of going with a Thief and giving him a lot of Feats
I love this community. The tavern campaign, your campaign, just blown away by how much support this community has that they'll literally multiply goals by over 10x the amount. It's so cool to be able to see players dreams and campaigns be official content
I don't think it actually captures their full soul when a Soul trinket is formed due to the following phrase: "a sliver of its life essence that takes physical form". Typically, a soul isn't really referred to as "a sliver of essence", but rather the entire essence enchilada.
It also says the soul is desperate to leave so of it was just an essence of the soul the rest of the soul should have already moved on....this is why its vague in its wording it's not clear if the sliver is just used to make the trinket or if it also binds the rest of the soul along with it
@@catherineholt1149 If the whole soul was bound it would define the gameplay effects. Abilities do what they say, no more and no less.
@@catherineholt1149 Thing about that is - a common bit in Fantasy is that the soul can be split into pieces, so I still feel it is only a sliver and not the entire thing.
Phantom rogue increases their damage output by near 50%. It adds aoe, and it's guaranteed so you can hit the ac tank, or force a conc save on a spellcaster. Or it let's you finish off the low HP enemy without having to blue your one and only attack on it. It also adds some AOE to rogue which is kind of unheard of.
The proficiency ability is also pretty good, it let's you get proficiency in nature or survival to gather herbs and such, and then an hour later change the proficiency to a healer's/alchemists kit to turn said herbs into potions. Just having access to any tool, on demand is amazing (especially since tools are something you'll know your going to use/need in advanced so you can prepare it when necessary)
I love these new rogue subclasses!! The Soul Knife is such a cool idea and has so much re-flavor potential
gambits as soulknife
It is a cool idea but not original to 5e. DnD 3.5 also had a psionic class called the "soul knife".
@@lolbots686 definitely
I hope I get to play a soul knife at some point soon.
The soul knife rogue is so good, not just for it's abilities, but because it can be reflavored in so many different ways. I recently played a soul knife gambler whose knives manifested as playing cards.
Reminds me of Gambit from the X-Men.
Late reply here, but my Soulknife is reflavoured too! He recieved the blessing of his setting's moon goddess, so his knives actually manifest as moonlight blades.
A high elf or half elf Phantom can have Green Flame Blade and Wails from the Grave, and I feel that is a really thematic and fun combo to use. (Magic Initiate is another option)
P.S. I really love your videos, I have learned a lot from you.
Treantmonk mentioned Phantom coming online at 6, and I agree. This subclass is a monster. Unavoidable half damage from your alpha strike... it's amazing. It's EASY to get sneak attack, most other classes give you unique ways to use it in a different way, but if you know what you're doing; you'll always get it. And being a rogue it is easy to get in range to get your trinket (at six) and bounce out... putting this next to mastermind... upsetting.
Yoo I'm glad you agreed with me on the Soul Knife thing, my current character is a changeling one, and her psionic abilities tie in well with the character as a whole. Also, I'm multi classing into an Echo Knight so on top of all that, I can summon a friend:)
I made the same character, a changeling soul-knife. Pretty cool stuff. I just don't now if I should tell the group who I really am. Still a lvl 1 and talking to the dm right now.
@@gamingwithgrief4307 keeping it secret and dropping it on the party later is a hell of a trap card
@@KarmicKnight97 I don't really want it to be a trap, or at least try to be annoying at the table. I'm talking with 2 different DM's right now to see if they will allow it at the table. I think my character is benovolent but I can see how it can be a problem. I just think it's a unique character idea. Who needs a disguise kit when you can literally change into anyone.
My soul knife is a hexblood that was a changeling in the classic sense (fey child left in place of a mortal child). Also a cool combo! Our druid is the changeling shapeshifter.
One thing that strikes me about Phantom: it's a Rogue subclass that *actually* increases potential damage, and does at level 3. Most don't, and if they do, it's at high level. For as good as Swashbuckler and Soul Knife are, they don't actually do "more" potential damage than any other rogue. Swashbucker has easier Sneak Attacks, but doesn't hit harder. Soul Knife does the same damage as any other Rogue with feat-boosted bonus action attacks (Crossbow Expert or Fighting Initiate for Two Weapon Fighting), if you're rolling hits. Thief and Scout get true extra attacks, but don't get them until 17th level. Phantom does more total damage under the best case than other folks.
Now, that's not to say that Phantom is S-Tier. It just has high potential damage. Where the subclass seems like it falls apart is utility. One proficiency is really cool, but Rogues have lots of proficiencies already. Death Saving Throws are nice, but hopefully it won't come up too often. Questions isn't that impressive since it can be lies (but could be handy to ask questions of allies that died). Ghost walk is sweet. But the overall utility is a lot lower than Arcane Trickster, Scout, Swashbuckler, Soul Knife. I mean, SK's Psi-Boosted Knack basically means proficiency in everything, and it stacks with what you already know. Add in telepathy and teleportation and invisibility... The utility just blows the Phantom out of the water.
Soul knife basically gives the two weapon fighting style. The bonus action attack uses modifier, unlike base twf. So an average of 1d4+mod instead of 1d6. So basically an increase of mod-1
I am so happy about finally discussing these rogue types. Mostly familiar with Phantom as I am largely a rogue main and just love what it does and the RP options for it
I love the vid! Just wanted to suggest a video, it would be interesting to see you guys go more in depth about the expanded spell lists for sorcerers and whether the other subclasses should gain that same ability
I'd still give phantom an A because honestly, a lot of rogues really don't have good 3rd level features. Do the thief and mastermind really get better 3rd level features? Not really, in my opinion. The Arcane trickster, soulknife and swashbuckler have amazing 3rd level abilities, which is what elevates them.
The scout doesn't really come online until 13th level, A phantom really comes online at 9th level when you can use your wails of the grave more reliably. So I find it better than the scout, which is in A.
I think the soulknife is great, but does have its problems. All your abilities revolve around the psi-blades, and so you can't get any magical weapons to augment yourself. No +1-3 weapons. No additional damage. Sure, you get features like homing strikes for better accuracy. But that just kinda makes up for not having that additional accuracy a magic weapon can provide to begin with. When your features just make up for the fact that you can't use magical weapons when other rogues can, that's really not S-tier worthy. Also the way the psychic blades ability is written makes opportunity attacks very awkward. Since you're kinda left empty-handed after your attacks. Also, I'm not very impressed with getting invisibility 6 levels later than an arcane trickster.
In a campaign where the DM homebrews magic items to help out (say, an amulet that gives psychic weapons +1) or where magic items are incredibly rare, the class really shines. S tier in the right campaign. I'd give it a B for that reason.
I think with a Rogue all you really want with a magic weapon is the magical damage and a better hit bonus, which the Soulknife gives you. Rogues benefit more from wondrous items that build on their skills and abilities.
Even allowing for the problems soulknife has with magic weapons (which I agree are an issue) I think B for soulknife is too low. Even if Soulknife stops using its psychic blades thanks to finding a better magic weapon, it's hard to see soulknife below an A-tier subclass the way Dungeon Dudes rates things because of how good it is in the social pillar and exploration pillar. You get telepathic communication up to a mile distant at level 3. When you fail a skill check you can roll dice to not fail. And while you may stop using them in big combats, psychic blades also help with staying under cover--you can kill a guard at a distance, and leave no evidence--no arrow or dagger stuck in their back, no visible wound. (Though yes, the problems soulknife has with magic weapons makes me think it should be in A-tier and not S-tier).
As for phantom...yes, thief and mastermind DO get better features at level 3. At 3rd level, wails from the grave deals a single d6 of damage, and you can use it a total of twice per day, for a total of 7 damage over the course of an entire adventuring day. So...like...0.3 DPR? This is essentially a non-ability at level 3. Now, at level 5 it scales in multiple ways (now 2d6 damage, and can be used three times per day), but still...21 damage over the course of an entire adventuring day probably averages out to about 1 damage per turn; very underwhelming for a subclass--an assassin rogue that never gets a surprise round probably still brings more damage than that just by gaining some free advantage on the first round, and Assassin is in C tier. Mastermind handing out advantage to one attack on the party fighter is bringing something like...5 damage per round. Thief...thief is weird; thief doesn't bring damage, but does bring a lot of utility on a bonus action. Anyway, compared to other damage abilities, level 3-8 wails from the grave just...doesn't deliver.
Honestly, from level 3-8, I think most of the power you get out of phantom is the floating skill check. Which...is fine, if you're picking a rogue as a class you probably want to be a skillmonkey, and this lets you be proficient in any one skill if the party can wait an hour. But...I don't think phantom manages to carve itself out the niche of being the best skillmonkey during level 3-8 either. Scout gets two skill proficiencies and expertise in both. Soulknife gets d8s they can add to their skill checks. Phantom gets to move one skill check, and that's cool, but the raw numbers Scout and Soulknife add, I think put them ahead as skillmonkeys.
Phantom becomes a LOT better at 9th level, but...even then...a little DM dependent. If your DM lets you carry around a bag of rats to kill, or lets you go into the forest and step on some bugs to fill up your soul trinkets, you'll have a good time. If your DM only lets you get soul trinkets from their combats, you won't be overflowing in resources; enemies need to die within 30 feet of you for you to get a soul trinket, AND you need to use a reaction (and a lot of rogue optimisation is built around managing to use their reaction to get a second full sneak attack, so using a reaction to get a soul trinket which will deliver half a sneak attack limits the stronger option). Of course, if your DM allows you to carry around a bag of rats and fill up on soul trinkets between combats--no problem; you can reserve your reaction for sneak attacks, and still use 4 soul trinkets every fight. Or alternatively if your party isn't helping you out with reaction attacks (nobody who can haste you, no battlemaster, no order cleric) having a use for your reaction that at least gives you some damage is nice to have. So in that kind of party, where your reaction is free most turns, it's not bad.
DM dependent/party dependent sounds like "good in the right campaign" to me. Phantom as B seems reasonable. And yeah, I can agree with lowering Soulknife due to their magic weapon issues, but they have enough other good stuff going for them very early in the game, that A is probably the right place for them.
@@KaitlynBurnellMath " So...like...0.3 DPR?" which hit with 100% chance. Thats the thing - wails from the grave is autohit on another target which suddenly makes it very stupid in a lot of situations.
@@shaneconnolly4747 But those features are still just compensating for the moment you get a magical weapon as any other rogue. A lot magical weapons don't even cost you attunement, so that's not an issue either.
@@KaitlynBurnellMath I mostly agree with you. One caveat to add is that you're comparing bonus action features to a feature that uses 0 action economy (until 9th level, I guess, where it starts competing for your reaction.). I agree wails is underwhelming at 3rd level, though 5th level is usually only a few sessions away. But they do keep their bonus action free for something like two-weapon fighting. Which pretty much makes up for the DPR difference with the mastermind. From playing with thieves, I usually notice that items tend not to add too much to most combats in any reliable fashion.
I agree that with something like an order cleric in the party, you're better off picking something that keeps their reaction free. If you require haste to use your reaction effectively, now you allow them to use their concentration for different spells. Still I guess on that basis I think B tier is the place for the phantom.
I still think the soulknife requires a campaign with a strong focus on the elements that make it good (infiltration, lots of social/exploration pillar) to justify anything higher than B. Especially since for anything besides those 3rd level features, the arcane trickster will just do the same thing as you and more.
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Any rogue can take green flame blade or booming blade. The cantrips can easily be acquired via racial features or feats. There aren’t many ways for a rogue to deal with multiple enemies at once while also using their sneak attack effectively. There also aren’t many ways to further increase a rogues attack beyond the blade cantrips, and wails stacks with these features.
Wails from the grave also has the advantage of allowing for the phantom to maintain distance between themselves and the target without having to move within melee range.
You also seem to be discounting the availability of the new steady aim feature a bit which drastically increases the likelihood any rogue will get their sneak attack.
Another cool feature of the soul trinket thing is if one of your teammates die you can collect their soul and bring it with you and find a Cleric or something to resurrect your teammate
Nice catch with that 👍
@@theonlymatthew.l thanks
First time listening to one of these with headphones and I'm just now realizing how good their recording quality is for not having the mics close to their mouths. Bonus: the parts where Monty taps the table for emphasis sounds weirdly soothing with headphones.
I've been playing a Phantom for a few months now. I began the character over a year ago taking Arcane Trickster as my subclass and mixing in a few levels of Wild Magic Sorcery. I never really felt in the skin of that character for some reason and wanted to have him die so I could come to the table with something more to my liking. My DM was very against having the personality and character of my PC be lost to the story. He, instead, wove a transformation of the character's class into the story. I kept the multi-class idea by going 3 levels of Archfey Warlock and 4 levels of Phantom.
The ability to change out a proficiency in a skill or tool set, I've found, is very useful. I will usually take Survival or Medicine when we are travelling and switch it for a social skill when we get into town. I especially like the offset it affords me when I have a skill with a -1 mod due to a low score.
I haven't had a ton of chances to use the Wails From the Grave ability because we've not been in those tactical positions with multiple targets, and I think that's because my DM is brilliant at making combat a challenge. But when I do, I use Green Flame Blade cantrip, attack with sneak, and wail on them.
Thanks for making the videos, gentleman. I really appreciate your discourse.
I really like the dialog you both had for the Phantom. Very thoughtful and broke down well.
also, soul trinkets are great for RPing as memories of fallen comrades, regretful victims or even trophies of honor to carry. Also really good for closure/saying last goodbyes when a death catches you off guard.
My brother played a soulknife in our home game when it was still Unearthed Arcana. He had a ton of fun with it, and even then it seemed like a really useful and well-made subclass. He was pretty much always able to do what he wanted to do in and out of combat. This is going on my list of potential subclass choices if I ever play a rogue.
With the Wails of the Grave feature, one thing that didn't get brought up is the lack of Extra Attack for the Rogue. Although you are limited in the amount of times that you can use the feature, it does allow for a pseudo extra attack, that always hits and would do more damage anyways.
I have an idea on how to improve the Assassin subclass and would like your opinion:
1) Combine the two Social Abilities
2) Where the second social ability was, replace with the following:
Flash Bomb:
Once per short rest you can craft Flash bombs equal to your proficiency bonus minus one. You can only have a number of Flash Bombs equal to your proficiency bonus minus one. During combat, as a bonus action, you can throw one Flash Bomb at an enemy. The enemy makes a constitution saving throw (DC 8 + Dexterity Mod + Proficiency Mod). On an failed save a creature becomes blind for a turn and is susceptible to the Assassinate Ability.
Take the Eldridge invocation feat for mask of many faces bam soul knife is amazing
Running Dungeon of the Mad Mage and the Phantom Rogue has been the star. Perfect niche campaign style for this subclass.
I have to give it to you 100% I I convinced our kobold party member (pack tactics ftw!) to be a soul knife after intense study of all the possibilities Is when he was feeling overwhelmed and he has easily racked up the highest damage and most kills in our party because of a low magic setting and having to having 2 magic weapons at a very early levery early level. I really love your rating videos because they always feel always feel like you understand how I see the classes.
We have a Soulknife and she has been pivotal in play even at low levels with the telepathic communication being especially good
The thing the Soulknife gets where they don't expend their resource on a failure is how Stunning Strike should work for monks and ki points.
*NOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!*
PLEASE NO!
The way Stunning Strike works is already op, with Monks having *A TON* of attempts in a single turn.
If i had to buff this thing, i would just make them regain Ki points on Short Rests, that would make the whole class way better.
@@heyfell4301 I think you might be trolling. They already get their Ki points back on a short rest. And stunning strike is not as good as it looks on paper. It targets CON, which most monsters have at least a positive save modifier for (and often a high one) and the save DC scales off a secondary stat for the monk, and it drains the single resource they have for all their class features.
@@Zhukov087 no, i'm not trolling.
I didn't know that Monks recover it on Short Rests, i don't usually play as a Monk, and my only experiences are mostly just: "oh, did i hit him 4 times? Guess he's fucked up, take this 4 CON saves biiiiiiiiiiitch".
It's like the Smite of Paladinsn, you can't nerf it without making the class useless, but you can't buff it without making it too powerful, it's a core feature and the only reason why someone would play as a Monk during the mid-levels (they have a REALLY big gap between their early and late levels).
Hi guys, another great video! But you should put a flashing lights warning on this, the mind blades bit is great but could trigger seizures in photosensitive folks
Phantom is my favorite rogue subclass so far. That said, it's really not meant for low levels of play.
This story's not really a testament to Phantom's strength, more of a funny story that showcases one of its weaknesses.
Got to 3rd level as a Phantom, first thing I faced was a boss monster, didn't get to use Wails from the Grave because only one enemy, nearly won, then got brought from max hp to over my negative maximum in one turn (low con moment). Didn't get to enjoy my favorite subclass.
Had a bunch of skill proficiencies though. Was proficient with all but 6 skills I think. Did any of them come up in the campaign? no, but it was cool to look at on my stat sheet.
Bless, I'm so happy that soul knife did so well in the review. I've been dying for a good psionic class
Soulknife is probably my favorite thing to come out of Tasha's, and I absolutely designed a villain for my campaign who was a psychic, shapeshifting assassin, whom the party narrowly avoided once. Love this subclass. Thank you for another great video.
Soulknife, imo, helps to make one of the most powerful rule-breaking classes. By taking a few levels of Lore Bard & Knowledge Cleric (and the right choices of feats), you can get proficiency in every skill, allowing your Psionic Knack & your Reliable Talent to make it where you never fail any skill check.
I started off variant human with the skill expert feat and took the skilled feat at level 4 I had 11 proficiencies and currently at level six I have expertise in five of those and rarely ever fail any skill checks.
Playing a soulknife and mastermind in two different campaigns and yeah the soulknife is just so much fun all around. The psychic communication is game changing.
Great timing for this video. My rogue player has been very indecisive about his subclass and is running out of time to choose. We're doing some prologue sessions to warm up, but soon we'll be going into Waterdeep: Dragon Heist and playing it very espionage/black ops. This helped me show him how good the Soulknife could be in this campaign context. He's also eyeing Arcane Trickster (because of course because it's awesome). We'll see what he chooses.
I feel ghost walk is one of the best features of any class. Sure, if you end your turn inside a wall or something, you take a bit of force damage, but what can the enemy do to you? Attacks can't hit you inside the wall, many spells can't either and there are not really many things that can get you, for a measly cost of some hit points that, at that level, is not too much price to pay compared to the safety you have and the damage you avoid from additional enemies, area of effects, spells and the likes.
Imo, ghost walk is broken.
Soul knife multi class into fighter, use main action to throw knife to teleport, use extra attack to teleport again, use action surge to teleport, BOOM unchained movement.
Edit: I made one in DnDBeyond.
I think there could be sort of a re-evaluation done to see how the steady aim feature impacts the various rogue subclasses.
The mechanical ripple effect that the steady aim feature has can drastically change combat in various situations. These impacts are different for a large portion of the rogue subclasses.
Since I usually go first in combat, steady aim happens every combat.......throw a dagger....oh look....sneak attack.....oh look.....another enemy takes 3d6 necrotic....sweet.....I love the phantom thematically and utility wise....I would prolly lean towards low s, high a...in the right circumstances...
I played in a game where one of us was playing the Soul Knife, and to be honest it felt a little *too* strong. The abilities feel so versatile and have so many uses, which makes it crazy strong. The ability to just succeed on every single ability check, with a safety net of not even spending a resource if it fails, is really oppressive. They ended up changing to an arcane trickster and it felt a lot better to play with.
In the campaign I am dming I have a soul knife changling in my party. He then purchased the magic Ooze, and a suit of studded glamor armor. He is the definition of slippery, but it’s a lot of fun watching him slip in and either get in trouble or get really good information on their enemies.
Some stuff I thought about Phantom Rogue: The extra damage can be used against an enemy spellcaster or to keep your barbarian friend raging at lower levels; also, you can aways carry a bag of rats to get more trinkets if I'm not mistaken.
Let's goooo, best part of my Tuesday afternoon!
As the soul knife you could also take 2 levels in warlock to get disguise self at will and maybe mage armor at will or devil sight (the eldritch feat may also work)
i'd go 3 lvs to get pact feature and darkness/invisibility, just for fun
Tokens of the Departed is worded a bit poorly, but it still seems clear. You get "a sliver of its life essence", not the creature's soul. The confusion comes because they decided to name the things "soul trinkets", but I feel like that's just poorly thought out writing. Apart from the name, there's nothing to indicate you trap the creature's soul, as all other spells and features that actually do so explicitly use "soul".
As always, love your analysis of the classes youre presenting. I’m currently running a multi class Soulknife (L9) paired with Shadow Monk (L6). There’s so much utility and movement capability for this combination. It is an absolute blast to play.
I'm currently playing Phantom rogue in a Descent into Avernus campaign. The roleplay flavor alone that Phantom allows is amazing if you have a DM that will lean into it. I looted a random ring off of a murder victim in water deep...her spirit gave me advantage on a roll to rile up a crowd for an arm wrestling contest at the elfsong because she herself was a performer. It's a blast!
I jumped into a campaign last night at level 13 and decided to try out a multiclassed Path of the Ancestral Guardian Barbarian and Phantom Rogue. I’m telling you, this was a flavorful and exciting character concept.
I suggest looking into it.
Just as a side note for the Soul Knife: (RAW) You can't use your Psychic Blades to make attacks of opportunity (As they manifest as part of taking an Attack action) and you can't use them to cast Booming Blade/Green Flame Blade (due to the manifesting as an action and that the melee cantrips requiring a weapon with a 1gp value.)
I love playing my Soulknife. One thing you guys didn’t mention: the Psychic Whispers can also be re-used with psychic die. And something I recently realized, the psychic blades can only be used with the attack ACTION. Opportunity attacks don’t help you much.
My DM has made a fun home rule for the Phantom, he gives me the soul trinkets at level 3 and only gives me the question feature while the advantage on con saves comes online at level 5 and the advantage on death saves and the other feature comes online at level 9. It’s made it feel a lot more rewarding
On the Phantom Rogue: If you're doing a skill check heavy campaign, the ability of the phantom rogue to choose any tool or skill proficiency on short/long rest with no daily limit is great.
To make it easier on what skills I dont have...my dm let me (during a 3 month downtime) let my character just kinda hang out and chill in a cemetery...communicating and training with the ghosts.....I can swap out any of my learned proficiencies with another and even expertise......but I can only have 3 expertise at a time and still have to do the 1 point switched per long rest....its not broken and makes it way easier on my character sheet lol
I agree with all of your assessments of the subclasses except thief. In not just roleplay but also from a mechanic perspective it is an icon of an aspect of what the rogue was always meant to do. To a lot of rogue players the main objective is to steal and this subclass augments that the best evenly and consistently. It is an A class in my opinion. Excellent job of outlining all these subclasses and explaining them S+
You guys rock. I just asked about these like last week. I'm sure you were already working on it but damn that felt fast
Phantom gives the Rogue AoE damage, which no other subclass can do. That is HUGE.
@Alaberti Green Flame Blade is really something that most Rogues won't even think about thanks to the Booming Blade. They have very limited cantrips, so expending it just so they can have AoE is just not as good.
For Acid Splash and Create Bonfire, just remember: intelligence is probably a tertiary attribute for Rogues, do attack rolls and saving throws are not as good as guaranteed damage.
@Alaberti a good AoE that's consistent and scales with level is a pretty big deal, if you ask me. You're using the Arcane Trickster as a comparison, but just invisible Mage Hand already beats the AoE of the Phantom, that shit is overpower. The Phantom will never get to S tier, but when compared to the Scout, yes, i really thinks AoE is better than reactive movement.
If compared to an S tier, Wails from the Grave isn't that big of a deal, but when compared to the A tier, it's really powerful.
I'm surprised that they didn't mention Psylocke at all. It was my first thought when I saw that subclass.
Psylocke is a few years ago and presumes XMen Fandom...
Another recent Soul Knife was Tandy Bowen, a.k.a. Dagger, in Marvel's Cloak & Dagger (2017-19 on ABC).
I’m in the process of multiclassing my halfling ancestral guardians barbarian (with thrown weapon fighting taken as a feat) with phantom rogue. I’m really excited because my goofy halfling ghosts will be able to distract an enemy that’s trying to hit my friends, reduce damage as a reaction to my friends, give me an extra skill after a long rest, and do extra damage when I hit a sneak attack.
I’m pretty sure it’s a suboptimal build, but it’s fun so far!
Suboptimal builds are often the most fascinating. Weaknesses define a character as much as strengths.
The Soulknife's teleportation ability sounds like Noctis' little trick from FFXV. Neat.
The problem with the Soul Knife is that you MUST use the psychic blade for all of it's features. It makes magic daggers near useless. You also can't make opportunity attacks with the psychic blades so it can be clunky. Other than that it is great.
Oh man, Ive put together a Soul Knife kenku rogue for an upcoming game im in. This combo was great for RP as It is going to allow me to play with the kenku mimicry while also being able to communicate in times a need by being able to connect telepathically to other players in the group.
Scout gets a REACTION to move half your speed without provoking opportunity attacks and expertise in Nature or Survival. That's it. That's all they get before level 9. Are you telling me that a free 50% damage increase to sneak attack (the main thing you do as a Rogue) and a free proficiency in a skill that you don't have after a short rest (which you can do multiple times a day) is worse than that? If Scout is an A, then Phantom is definitely an A.
One thing not mentioned is that the soul knife rogue's invisibility does not end when you cast a spell. So if you're going to play to at least Level 13, pick up Minor Illusion, either as a racial ability such as from High Elf, or from a feat such as Magic Initiate. Minor illusion doesn't have a verbal component.
Let that sink in for a moment. Minor illusion doesn't have a verbal component.
They can't see you because you're invisible. They can't hear you because you're silent. No one knows you're casting a spell. In fact, no one knows you're there at all. Steal an item and make it appear it's still there while you beat a hasty retreat unseen. Create treasure or other bait to lure your enemies into a trap without them realizing there's anyone nearby. Or if you want to be particularly cruel, find one of your enemies alone, and torment him with horrifying visions and sounds.
Imagine the shenanigans you can pull off by casting Minor Illusion every 6 seconds for an hour without anyone knowing what's causing it. It's insane.
Currently playing a Phantom Rogue in a Curse of Strahd campaign. I agree that it comes online late, so I decided to take feats to make up for it. I took telekinetic and shadow touched. I flavored Mage Hand as ghost friends grabbing things, etc. Invisibility and Disguise Self are also just super useful and easy to add that spectral flavor too (kill people and take their faces with Disguise Self for instance). Also, my DM gave me a pretty cool magic item that essentially gives me the Arcane Trickster Mage Hand Legerdemain feature adding to my feat choice, as well as access to some other spells (unseen servant for instance) that further add to the ghost theme. Wails from the Grave has helped finish off enemies all the time, a lot more than I expected tbh. I also just love the extra skill. We're just a four man party and being able to switch around based on what we need atm has actually come in handy. I just think its a fun and flavorful subclass that fits really well in certain campaigns.
My brother used the Soulknife’s teleportation ability to throw the knife into the air, attack someone and then blink back to where he was at the start of his turn. Not allowable strictly RAW, but the Rule of Cool is used liberally at my table
I agree with your take on Phantom Rogue
I've been dming a one shot mini campaign (10th level) and one of my players has a phantom rogue.
He seems to love it but he was particularly sad beause he almost didnt use his Wail of the Grave ability until like the third session (when the party finally went rogue against a group of minions).
He is always using his trinket shenanigans to pick souls for flavour but, in all honesty it kinda conflicts with things like uncanny dodge (which is usually far better).
I've played a phantom rogue and by far it is my favorite class to rp. So much adding to the rp aspect of the character. The ability to pick up a skill whenever I need to has saved the campaign many times. And yes the ability to affect more than one target is amazing which I argue is stronger at low levels.
I would agree with you. I think they really undervalued the low level abilities and overvalued the high level ones.
Hi, I'm new to dnd an my character is a phantom rouge. Any tips on how to roleplay the wails of the grave?
I love the reaction to describing the Soulknife. Just a delayed, straight up "yeah" hahahaha
Also with the soulknife you can make your psichyc blades be whatever you agree with your DM to be. I'm cretaing a rogue soulknife that instead of psichyc blades will be throwing magical cards. If you have imagination it can be a lot of different things.
Phantom Rogue. Thought I'll share my friend's use while it was in UA and maybe it'll help someone playing it. To start, they enjoy playing rogues, are good at getting sneak attacks, and only used this character lv 1-12. They didn't think high of this class until they played more as a 'clean up'. Basically, have a group of creatures which at least one was hurt, then sneak attack the least damaged, wails from the grave the hurt one, if either made it, then BA attack. Many encounters felt he was landing 1-3 killing hits each round. Downside, this often requires good teamwork from 1 or 2 other players.
I fixed Psi warrior a bit and fortunately my great DM (my big regards to you Daniel) decided to accept my changes. I moved the feature from the seventh level which knocks target prone to the third level and combined it with the related skill. On the seventh level I added the telekinetic feat but without ability increase. On tenth level I just added telepathic feat, also without ability increase. Now I don't have to spend my 2 "Ability Increase" levels to just take these feats in order to feel like a Jedi.
I ran a Swashbuckler in my campaign as a dmnpc. Totally lethal. I might try a Soulknife in a new campaign, but that'll be a while for this group. Good video, thanks.