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Dittos are not
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 11 ก.ค. 2024
- It’s a warm and sunny Saturday morning over in San Antonio, Texas, and Lost Tech City and its 400 players from all over the United States are about to bear witness to one of the rarest phenomena in Smash.
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#Ditto #MirrorMatch #SSBU #SmashUltimate #turndownforULT
As a Puff main the Puff matchup is 60-40 in the opponent's favor
Thank you for supporting our claims with facts and science
This is fact
That means that for the opponent you are winning.
Same with melee peach! The opponent's dsmash is so broken 😖
Why?
In short I think a large part of it is this:
Humans have a tendency to assume that other humans think like them. So when playing a ditto that tendency backfires for the more experienced player. They may subconsciously expect the opponent to have the same habits as them, so the differences in playstyle catch them more off-guard.
Meanwhile, the less experienced player's mindset is less solidified, so they aren't as restricted mentally as to what they expect.
Experienced players have a battle tendency
You gotta think tho that restriction forces experienced players to go deep in their bag
@@qurturt8872 Shijima no soko kara
When I play an worst cloud everytime he hits me with a worst option I be stuck in my head like where did he hit me with this option
Don't forget in a cloud ditto, for cloud facing to the left side b hits farther away at the bottom and closer and the top while cloud facing right is inverse meaning a cloud on the right is the opposite meaning you could argue the cloud cloud matchup is in favour to the cloud that is facing right since it anti airs better.
LEFT CLOUD BEATS RIGHT CLOUD
We know this is irrelevant, right? Like haha funny meme but if we're being serious...
@@akapEh, I dunno... Any advantage is relevant if the matches are close enough.
@@skyeschlueter9877The thing is that it's not actually relevant because it's not a constant. Which Cloud is on the left changes throughout the course of a game, and that advantage changes with it. Sonic beats Ganon because Sonic's ability to get a lead and then run away forever is a constant, it doesn't change throughout a set. Left Cloud vs Right Cloud is more like the PT mirror example; Squirtle vs Squirtle is the same but both players have the ability to switch to Ivysaur and Charizard
@blueice7906 still an even match up since I doubt the match up ratio would change due to that. Not to mention that who is facing left or right would change throughout the match, it would only matter for round start
I beat Ploopy in the Game & Watch ditto once. That told me all I needed to know about dittos.
What is a ploopy?
@@electricssbone of the best gnw players in the us
Aren’t you the guy that pops off for DQ wins in brackets
@@FlygonFactory win is a win fr
AYO ROGUE RISTERMICE IN THE WILD!!! BIG FAN DUDE!!!!!!
If you're the best character rep in town, it's much less likely that you've studied the gameplay of the 2-8 next best reps for your same character than that each of those seven players has studied your gameplan extensively, thus lending them a player knowledge advantage. Surely over the course of a few sets your results would normalize and the better player would start winning outright
As for lack of experience on the "better player's" part, the underdog is probably also studying the better player as they are learning their character to become better.
Falcon ditto is 70-30 for whoever is feeling themselves the most at any given moment
So 50-50
@@bleachigo990 well yes but actually no
@@jerry3115 so actually yes.
@@bleachigo990 no
@@jerry3115 that’s what I said…… yes.
"The simple part is that they can do everything you can do. The complicated part is that they can do everything you can do."
This is something I noticed when playing Guilty Gear Strive. Axl Low is the zoner supreme, he wants to hold people at great range because they typically can't fight as well at it as he does, and he's relatively weaker in close range. But if it's two Axls against each other the victor is usually the one who's playing, by their typical gameplan, the WORSE Axl; the one that's more willing and able to completely forego his zoning tools and just charge in with his close-ranged attacks.
And then there's Faust.
We fight like men.
@@IAmGun. item spam go brrrrrr
As a millia main, I hate the millia mu
As an axl main, that’s the most true thing I’ve heard. Axl one of my lowest wr matchups.
It's funny, coming from an RTS background the idea of mirrors being a stable consistent test of player skill would never have occurred to me. Starcraft 2 mirrors generally have a reputation for being very gamble-y and chaotic, though at the same time some of the best players in the world have set themselves apart by dominating the mirror with insurmountable skill.
I feel that last part is only really true with maybe Terran.
The Zerg mirror is so volatile that Raynor picked up off-racing Protoss (a pro playing more than one race is nearly unheard of these days), because he felt like his odds were better playing a weaker race into Zerg, than playing the mirror and leaving too much up to the gamble. Serrel's (top ranked atm) worst matchup by far is other Zerg.
P
They also know every little thing about their character which isn’t an advantage but a disadvantage because they’ll predict things the other wouldn’t think of
The opponent’s skill becomes evident real quick tho, you have to remember how to beat shitters.
eh. this will affect mid to high level players (for example, as an upper mid level greninja main, i am ASS at the greninja ditto because, for example, i dont expect the worse player to dash attack so much, so i try to play like they AREN'T going to randomly dash attack for no reason in a way thats super punishable), but no top 100 player is ever going to make a hard callout on something without having seen the opponent do it. and, back to my example, tarik might get hit by 1 or 2 surprise dash attacks by a bad greninja, but he's a top player. he's going to actually be able to adapt and change his gameplan to compensate.
@@memenazi7078I don't think major tournament contenders count as shitters anymore
My second tournament, I ended up in a ditto with one of the best players in my state- Despite my complete lack of experience, I won game 1.
I genuinely think it has to do with risk-taking. The more-experienced player will use as few risks as possible, while the player with less experience is far less careful, and thus takes more chances for openings that the better player wouldn't take
I'm upset you brought up the statistics of how matches go in dittos and then didn't compare with the trend in ultimate overall. "The worse player wins 1/3rd of the time on average" is not an outrageous statement unless you can show that it's meaningfully more than it is in non dittos.
"Now that we've stablished the volatility of dittos in ultimate from a statistical perspective." 💀
That is literally impossible to quantify. You could compare it to all matches and see how often the underdog wins, but that would be entirely misleading, because the gap between a top character rep and the next best player of that character is wayyy wider than the gap between the better and worse of 2 players meeting in a random top 64
@@cisummusic22 it also doesn't account for non-perfectly even matchups. The worse player will absolutely win a 60-40 mu in their favor a solid % of the time.
Probably because it's a much more volatile metric to compare, since you know, if the better ranked player faces off against a character that has a dominant match-up against his own then it will massively impact the results, I don't think that going "wow, This Min Min player is ranked pretty low but he beat the best DK in the world" is really the surprising
The Ditto is more reliable to study for the question of the Match-up alone
I disagree, the point was to highlight whether "worse player wins the ditto" was accurate or not. You only need to look at dittos to determine that.
"We play more than Fox"
"... Yet the only Ditto we see is Fox."
Is absolutely hilarious to me
The hero ditto is ??-?? and favors the faster reader
I think it could be because top players don’t train to play AGAINST their own character.
Yea, since it’s so rare they don’t know the matchup
This is definitely it
They avoid dittos like the plague, it’s cowardice
@@memenazi7078"Cowardice"? How? It's an oversight at worst, not "cowardice".
Probably. It's mostly because since the roster is so vast you never actually account for what you should do if your fighting your own character.
I think another underlooked aspect of the Hungrybox upset is that Hbox probably has much more experience in the ditto since he primarily plays Melee. Hbox being stronger against characters from the Melee roster makes a lot of sense
Wouldn't we want to compare the % of mirror upsets to the % of non-mirror upsets to establish whether this is actually a thing? Or maybe look at other games as comparisons? I know it's more work, but just concluding "The higher seed only wins 2/3 of the time, this must be a phenomenon" seems kind of like statistical smoke and mirrors.
Yea sadly this 100% counts as misinformation. I think the angle of this video should have been "opinion" instead of this 😅
@@jarineando Yeah... I wouldn't go quite as far as "misinformation" but it's certainly misleading and intellectually lazy. Which is par for TH-cam, sure, but I'd hoped for better.
I guess it depends on the definition you accept, misinformation can be "misleading information".
But like 4:47
"Now that we've stablished the volatility of dittos in ultimate from a statistical perspective."
oof haha
Fair, that's pretty bad.
@@the_wake_If top players lost 33% of any set they played, they would not be top players. That’s why it’s so significant that top players lose so much in the ditto. It’s not that hard to comprehend.
as a joker player the ditto is unwinnable. -4
fr
9:15 Small correction, he didn't start the bracket in losers. Ultimate Summit 2 didn't do the whole "2 lowest RR places start in losers" thing, which only started with Ultimate Summit 3.
Tweek's low RR placement just meant that he was seeded as the 2nd lowest from his pool and thus had to fight Leo (who was the 2nd highest player in his pool due to an Esam loss) in R1 of winners in the final bracket. He lost and then had to fight Leffen.
So, I have no knowledge of Smash tournaments. Why would you put someone in losers bracket right at the start? That seems really unfair.
Walt learning Google Earth editing is something I've been waiting forever for.
It's just Prezi. There isn't much to learn. You can learn it too in a out 5 minutes if you go to their website. Students have been using it as a PowerPoint alternative for years. But most people stop as almost every Prezi looks exactly the same. It's why you don't see many TH-camrs use it much. It's incredibly easy to pump out but if everyone just makes Prezi content then everyone's content looks exactly the same.
Can confirm, in a tournament I could barely touch an opposing Banjo, so I switched to Banjo, a character I didn't even touch before, and I won.
I'm not fully convinced that dittos really ARE volatile. Sure, the lower-seeded/worse player wins 1/3 of the time, but what are we comparing that to? The better player certainly doesn't always win in non-dittos either, and an overall upset rate of 1/3 doesn't seem that astounding.
I feel like there should be some sort of comparison with non-ditto matches to give that statistic meaning.
Holy shit my art is in a Turndownforwalt video (I made the PR Bassmage was on)
Ty for the lovely art!
Duuuuude I screenshotted it because it was so awesome. Where can I follow you or support?
I think this is how you can tell it is a 50:50 match. When even the one who mains it can lose to someone who doesn't.
I feel like another reason you may have missed comes down to preparation. If you pick a character and want to improve with it the first thing you do is watch every match of the best player at that character. This inadvertently makes you really good against them since you know all their habits and their playstyle inside and out
The Prezi presentation was not what i was expecting
@@MakeVarahHappen it probably made it significantly easier to produce though
I was about to say, big Jon Bois vibes. It's a dated style but I do still love it
@@MakeVarahHappen Are they copying it from that guy or does every single Prezi look about the same since the late 2000s
My Prezis looked like this in middle school like 15 years ago... Including like the very first one I ever made. They're very samey.
15:52 bro turned on BobbyBrocolli mode for the last 3 minutes of the vid and refused to elaborate.
you should see the other videos that selfdestructgambit has made!
Hello fellow Bobbybrocolli enjoyer
It's actually the Jon Bois style. Jon Bois has made documentaries for a long long time now, on his own channel a bit but mostly for the channel Secret Base, and once you've watched his documentaries you realise just how many thousands of youtubers he's directly inspired. When the artform of online video making becomes an art form that's studied academically in universities, Jon Bois will be considered the most influential single creator out there, because his style is absolutely _EVERYWHERE_ with everyone copying it. The Beatles are to the artform of music as Jon Bois is to the artform of online videos/documentaries. I'm not being hyperbolic. Seriously you probably already are subscribed to at least dozens of channels who each took their main inspiration from Jon Bois and make videos in his style.
He's just had such an absolutely enormous influence.
BobbyBrocolli doesn't make videos in his own style, he makes them in the Jon Bois style. He freely admits this too, he even has 2 separate videos where he shows you _HOW_ to make a Jon Bois style documentary yourself. Another huge youtuber who openly admits that he just copies the Jon Bois style is Emplemon, who made the Hungrybox documentary that got tons of people into Smash. That was a Jon Bois style documentary.
But yeah go and watch the documentaries by Jon Bois on Secret Base. Start right now, today. They have a playlist with his documentaries on there (because Secret Base are a big company and they make a lot of non Jon Bois videos too). For example, watch the 2-part feature length documentary about the history of athletes in sports with the first name "Bob".
It may sound ridiculous, but I'm not exaggerating whatsoever, it's one of the most beautiful, most breathtaking, most heartbreaking, most touching, most poignant, most tear-inducing documentaries you will ever watch. It's genuinely incredibly moving. It all began as a kind of joke but the more he researched into it the more he realised how incredible a topic it is. You'll probably cry a bit when you watch it. Again, I'm not joking, not even slightly. It's seriously pretty nuts how genuinely amazing it is and how moving and touching and heart-rending it is.
Here's the link to Part 1: th-cam.com/video/lvh6NLqKRfs/w-d-xo.htmlsi=fprlJKidNHhjNCH2
Please watch it, get started with it today. Please.
Even if you think you have absolutely zero interest in sports. Just watch them anyway. Because Jon Bois' documentaries are really just incredible stories about extraordinary people, about amazing human beings, and sports just happens to be the flavour of that, while for Bobby Brocolli his videos are the same thing, stories about incredible people or events but the flavour of his videos is science. You don't need to have any knowledge of sports whatsoever to watch and fall in love with Jon's documentaries.
It's actually the Jon Bois style. Jon Bois has made documentaries for a long long time now, on his own channel a bit but mostly for the channel Secret Base, and once you've watched his documentaries you realise just how many thousands of youtubers he's directly inspired. When the artform of online video making becomes an art form that's studied academically in universities, Jon Bois will be considered the most influential single creator out there, because his style is absolutely _EVERYWHERE_ with everyone copying it. The Beatles are to the artform of music as Jon Bois is to the artform of online videos/documentaries. I'm not being hyperbolic. Seriously you probably already are subscribed to at least dozens of channels who each took their main inspiration from Jon Bois and make videos in his style.
He's just had such an absolutely enormous influence.
BobbyBrocolli doesn't make videos in his own style, he makes them in the Jon Bois style. He freely admits this too, he even has 2 separate videos where he shows you _HOW_ to make a Jon Bois style documentary yourself. Another huge youtuber who openly admits that he just copies the Jon Bois style is Emplemon, who made the Hungrybox documentary that got tons of people into Smash. That was a Jon Bois style documentary.
But yeah go and watch the documentaries by Jon Bois on Secret Base. Start right now, today. They have a playlist with his documentaries on there (because Secret Base are a big company and they make a lot of non Jon Bois videos too). For example, watch the 2-part feature length documentary about the history of athletes in sports with the first name "Bob".
It may sound ridiculous, but I'm not exaggerating whatsoever, it's one of the most beautiful, most breathtaking, most heartbreaking, most touching, most poignant, most tear-inducing documentaries you will ever watch. It's genuinely incredibly moving. It all began as a kind of joke but the more he researched into it the more he realised how incredible a topic it is. You'll probably cry a bit when you watch it. Again, I'm not joking, not even slightly. It's seriously pretty nuts how genuinely amazing it is and how moving and touching and heart-rending it is.
Here's the link to Part 1: th-cam.com/video/lvh6NLqKRfs/w-d-xo.htmlsi=fprlJKidNHhjNCH2
Please watch it, get started with it today. Please.
Even if you think you have absolutely zero interest in sports. Just watch them anyway. Because Jon Bois' documentaries are really just incredible stories about extraordinary people, about amazing human beings, and sports just happens to be the flavour of that, while for Bobby Brocolli his videos are the same thing, stories about incredible people or events but the flavour of his videos is science. You don't need to have any knowledge of sports whatsoever to watch and fall in love with Jon's documentaries.
It's actually the Jon Bois style. Jon Bois has made documentaries for a long long time now, on his own channel a bit but mostly for the channel Secret Base, and once you've watched his documentaries you realise just how many thousands of youtubers he's directly inspired. When the artform of online video making becomes an art form that's studied academically in universities, Jon Bois will be considered the most influential single creator out there, because his style is absolutely _EVERYWHERE_ with everyone copying it. The Beatles are to the artform of music as Jon Bois is to the artform of online videos/documentaries. I'm not being hyperbolic. Seriously you probably already are subscribed to at least dozens of channels who each took their main inspiration from Jon Bois and make videos in his style.
He's just had such an absolutely enormous influence.
BobbyBrocolli doesn't make videos in his own style, he makes them in the Jon Bois style. He freely admits this too, he even has 2 separate videos where he shows you _HOW_ to make a Jon Bois style documentary yourself. Another huge youtuber who openly admits that he just copies the Jon Bois style is Emplemon, who made the Hungrybox documentary that got tons of people into Smash. That was a Jon Bois style documentary.
But yeah go and watch the documentaries by Jon Bois on Secret Base. Start right now, today. They have a playlist with his documentaries on there (because Secret Base are a big company and they make a lot of non Jon Bois videos too). For example, watch the 2-part feature length documentary about the history of athletes in sports with the first name "Bob".
It may sound ridiculous, but I'm not exaggerating whatsoever, it's one of the most beautiful, most breathtaking, most heartbreaking, most touching, most poignant, most tear-inducing documentaries you will ever watch. It's genuinely incredibly moving. It all began as a kind of joke but the more he researched into it the more he realised how incredible a topic it is. You'll probably cry a bit when you watch it. Again, I'm not joking, not even slightly. It's seriously pretty nuts how genuinely amazing it is and how moving and touching and heart-rending it is.
Here's the link to Part 1: th-cam.com/video/lvh6NLqKRfs/w-d-xo.htmlsi=fprlJKidNHhjNCH2
Please watch it, get started with it today. Please.
Even if you think you have absolutely zero interest in sports. Just watch them anyway. Because Jon Bois' documentaries are really just incredible stories about extraordinary people, about amazing human beings, and sports just happens to be the flavour of that, while for Bobby Brocolli his videos are the same thing, stories about incredible people or events but the flavour of his videos is science. You don't need to have any knowledge of sports whatsoever to watch and fall in love with Jon's documentaries.
Maybe a factor might be that the better player has too high expectations for the worse player (they might expect the other of being capable of what they themselves are, and therefore play it too safe in some interractions or not even try to match up check their oponent).
You explain that the data shows that the underdog wins the ditto ~1/3 of the time, but how often does the underdog win in non-ditto matchups? Without knowing that number, we can't actually say whether dittos differ from non-dittos in this regard at all.
What if someone held a random ditto tournament? Each match would be given a random character for both players to use (not picking random in the game). Would that be interesting?
Honestly, this video hits close to home because I abuse people not knowing their matchups by counter-picking Little Mac in situations I used to pick Luigi since many players don't know the Mac matchup; they incorrectly assume their general understanding of his weaknesses are enough to beat him, and so they pass him off as another low-tier with no options. The thing about Mac is his matchup requires you to know how to play against him speciffically since the things that make him so bad aren't trivial to exploit due to the volatility of his kill potential being so high. Making one or two mistakes in neutral can easily ghost you a stock.
Speaking of neuteral, the Mac matchup is notably difficult to wing because it's based almost entirely around forcing Mac - a fast character with a myriad of powerful approaches - to stay in neutral for as much of the game as possible. Mac can be consistently countered with almost any character, given the correct knowledge since he has no consistent methods to force errors in neuteral-game. This would be a huge issue for Mac seeing success if it wasn't for him being a magnet for unforced errors rewarded with a full stock. This is compounds even further because of the Star-Punch - Mac's "comeback" mechanic.
The Star-Punch is rather unique because it acts as both a way to close a stock disadvantage, but also as a reward for tight play that can extend you lead even further. The move itself charges with damage dealt and do made taken; it has a shockingly low kill percent and fantastic frame data (and I swear it has a huge disjoint) for a comeback move. The caviot is it can be easily revoked by being dealt miniscule damage, but this usually ends up being an upside because it usually finishes charging around the end of the first stock, meaning that you can potentially be rewarded with a 0 to death stock two. Needless to say, that scares players into taking unnecessary risks in neutral which are the most common way Mac connects a 0 to death.
Mac is a fun character who's full of surprises; I highly recommend everybody try learning him. He has some of the most satisfying wins ever.
Another factor that I don't think was talked (enough) is that the underdog have, most likely, watched a TON of set of that player, maybe the player they watched the MOST - meaning it's also the one they know weakness the best, they know where the player struggle and when he excel, meaning it's way easier to play around their playstyle.
Every G&W are watching Miya ; every Sonic are watching Sonix ; and the list goes on
This isn't just matchup inexperience, it's also a knowledge gap of the *player*
Two biggest lessons:
1. The better player isn't better. They get better (on an even playing field)
2. Some characters are easier to win with than others. Higher tier or not. If you get an advantage, there are many, top level players included, who just can't cope. Therefore, play as characters that can gain that advantage, depreciate that mental stamina.
The majority of times, Dittos only influence one thing, and that's the unprecedented first impression. The exceptions, while few, shouldn't be ignored. Refer to lesson 2, you either have to be the better player at taking stocks, or...get ready for a baby slapfight.
Also, picking multiple mains is a great idea. If some characters are easier to pick up than others, and happen to complement the playstyle or cover the weaknesses of your main, why not? Who knows? You might have an edge in the ditto that your opponent just ain't.
First thing i thought when you asked what would be the reasons was the lack of practice on Ditto's, it just made sense to me that, people who main a character rarely plays against them as practice, and in turn end up not performing the best. Very good video! subscribed.
Something else to note thats kinda covered by point 2, but I don't think is emphasized enough is how much data someone learning a character has, and how much that data is effected by the highest represented player playing them. If I want to learn Corrin I watch Shadic, and that is also true for the people under them with that same character. They get so much data from learning their mains from watching the best, that they kinda already have the reads on the player.
Great video! I think one hypothesis worth exploring is that by reviewing VODs of the best player of their character while trying to get better at the game, the underdog gets to know the playstyle and the habits of their top rep. They already have an experience of their opponent before specifically preparing for their bracket.
(clicks on Smash video)
(hears my home town in the first second)
(rewinds to make sure I heard that right)
For a lot of characters there's basically 2 or more playstyles that are nowhere near the same and thus you basically have to learn the matchup twice, and in mirror matches that makes it even more volatile
Take Pikachu. Pikachu can play passively with t-jolt spam, aggressive by running behind the t-jolt, or bait and punish by abusing how small and hard to hit Pikachu is
If you play one way and encounter someone who plays a different way you can't know for certain how your opponent will play
A friend of mine used to play the ditto against one of the PRd players in my region on purpose because that dude always had such a bad mental block in that MU. This was in Brawl.
3:01 one more member, one more member, one more member, ONE MORE-
I think like you said, usually the top play who set the stand on how a character should be played, is a disadvantage. They usually have more vods on them and the lesser player, probably studies them, where the top player probably hasn't matched as much to understand their habits.
We need to compare unexpected defeats and game 5's of dittos to upsets and unexpected game 5's in general and by secondary characters for this to be considered notable at all.
i love the secret base style this video has
The Donkey Kong Ditto screenshot at 2:42 is perfect 🤣
Ultimate may have the hardest neutral to learn from any other smash game as the game is dependent on you winning every neutral encounter and knowing when to pick your spots due to lack of hitstun. From Smash 64 - Brawl higher skilled player were almost always going to win. Smash 4 and Ultimate had transitioned into higher IQ players will mostly likely win. Your ability expose a flaw in your opponents game plan is much better than you just being technically better than your opponent in Ultimate, hence why there's so many upsets in Ultimate compared to other smash titles. EX: in Melee a player could know how to beat a match up but it wouldn't matter if you aren't skilled enough in your tech skill to do anything about it.
As a pirahna plant main, I've only gotten 4 mirror matches online.
that steve transition was so stupid I had to sub, that is just way too good
Calling it a "ditto" isn't a Pokemon reference, or at least it shouldn't be. Ditto is how English pronounce the Latin word 'dito', which means the same, usually in the context of 'idem dito', which has the same meaning.
Man i wonder if thats how a pokemon that copies another pokemon got its name, thats crazy
sdg MENTIONED
ME MENTION JUMPSCARE?????
4th factor you've missed: that player is the underdog because of their positioning in this game, but are rising because they play real fighting games
a blazblue player by example on some matchups is going to get to 50/50 in days or even hours, the high known player has experience on 90 chars, and that makes them strong, until a mirror with better moves
Only kinda related, but mirror matches in card games are always delightfully degenerate. It's such a weird combination of high skill required but also a lot of luck to win those, because once you're put on the backburner you need to know exactly what's required to claw your way back to a winning position and also get lucky enough to do so.
"The worse player wins about 33% of the time."
So the thing that we'd expect to be an exception.... is, in fact, an exception. Great. Click away.
2:20 we are sad to inform that the chair did not survive the Hbox popoff
As a kirby main, the ditto matchup is 80-20 (opponents favour) because you can't get a free ability
Kirby's hardest mu is Kirby. Not even because of a lack of copy, but Kirby can space out himself lol.
@@djdrizzy9139 real
Ah yes, character ditto volatility, i somehow always remembered this as "the only metric where pikachu is bottom tier" (which is false but yknow). Where characters like ROB have volatile matchups against themselves due to doubling the amount of gyros and touch of deaths, pikachu can sidestep his own edgeguards better than most and just stay alive :v
Left cloud is better than right cloud according to whydo so yeah!
I was perfectly willing to accept that the Jigglypuff ditto was the rarest match in Smash Ultimate
UNLESS WERE TALKING ABOUT BRAWL SNAKE WHICH HAS A 60-40 MATCHUP AGAINST HIMSELF
I think dittos are also harder because of the mental/ego perspective and how advantage and disadvantage works.
I think all of us at some point, have faced a worse player of our mains and thought "they're not as good as me, I shouldn't lose this," or something to that effect, and then proceeded to play somewhat differently, either with less aggression or just in a generally more lax way, trying to "prove" you're the better user of the character, and I sorely doubt top players are exempt from this.
On the flip side, offense and defense are two halves of every character. They all exist on the spectrum of how well they can push advantage and how easily they can survive disadvantage... And this duality applies to the dittos. Roy, for example, excels at pushing his offense via momentum and keeping his opponent in disadvantage and forcing mistakes to capitalize off of with GIGA damage... But then if he can't get his foot in the door, he struggles in disadvantage and eventually loses after sharking about trying to find an opening and getting hit too much.
Now apply the mental aspect to that example, and think about the "better" Roy slowing down or being more methodical in the ditto, consciously trying to apply more "skill" to their play instead of just playing, and thus making more mistakes and allowing more openings while they try to prove themselves, and you get a "better" Roy in disadvantage more often and making more mistakes and eventually losing to the "worse" Roy... And if this trend is common enough, you get a notable amount of "worse" players winning the ditto... Maybe even a third of them.
I can't say for sure that this applies to EVERY ditto, but it makes sense on paper. In fact, it makes sense for an "optimal" specialist to barely feel a need to adapt exponentially on the fly, especially against a "lesser" player. But then they lose and start winning the ditto again because their mental awareness expands.
“Character matchups” aren’t the same as “Player matchups”. The ditto character matchup is always 50-50. They have the same tools, opportunities, flaws, frame data, etc so in a vacuum (which is what a character matchup is) it is 50-50 . The volatility comes from human inconsistency(“Player matchup”). This is also the same reason why character tier lists across players will never be 100% the same. People conflate character and player matchups. They’re not the same so they do not and should not yield the same data.
I can’t believe I had to scroll down this far to find a comment talking about this. The title is completely wrong and baity, which is unfortunate because it’s genuinely a well made, clearly structured, and interesting video.
@@walcneon it’s like people don’t acknowledge that players don’t play characters in the exact way other players do. It’s so weird. Like even some professional players don’t seem to either. But I guess that’s why some matchup charts are so wildly different.
@@walcneon it’s like people don’t acknowledge that players don’t play characters in the exact way other players do. It’s so weird. Like even some professional players don’t seem to either. But I guess that’s why some matchup charts are so wildly different.
Another one that flew under the radar this year was JeJaJeJa vs WesNile, a battle between a top optimal kirby and a raw parry demon.
Waaaay back in the day we used to joke that Marth dittos in Melee were 0-100 for both players
“Exceptionally shorter lifespan”
…An exception to what?
Shit, I’ve noticed this phenomenon in my own goddamn games. I usually main Toon Link and use Pythra, Chrom, Young Link, and Byleth as my secondaries, and I can usually beat my buddy Jake with them, but when he picks them for a ditto the fights get _way_ harder, to the point where I can almost always beat him with Pythra _unless he_ picked Pythra, then I get curbstomped
I’m only a couple minutes in but I think it has to do with the difference between playing _as_ a character and playing _against_ a character, which are two different skills, and you’re not as likely to fight your main and thus not as likely to build the skill needed to fight your main, because you’re too busy fighting _as_ your main
I play Mii gunner so I’m safe from the ditto curse.
The fact that you watched Steve AND Rob dittos for this video shows major dedication💯
The Hungrybox "upset" is actual the reasonable conclusion to come to. He has been playing against other Jigglypuffs in Melee for decades, a game with 25 characters of which maybe 9 are playable, one of which happens to be Jigglypuff. Anyone with a brain could have seen this coming.
The Sonic ditto is extremely frustrating for me. I’m the “A button Sonic” so the other Sonic just spins back and forth while I’m at center stage playing it like any other character would
I'd say "Worse player wins the ditto" points more to Smash players obsession with player stats and how they can't wrap their heads around players beating players they "shouldn't".
14:05 I love the touch of adding the Shulk clip here
Sorry. Is this a reference to something
It’s the best way to measure the skill of the player either raw skill, experience in the matchup, raw experience, or skill with the character specifically. It’s fun and perfect.
As someone who prominently played Ike in Smash 4, and a bit in Ultimate. He is his own worst enemy at times, but thats also because Ike's recovery is easily gimped by counter. (among other things unless Ike recovers basically frame perfect).
So it was just always kind of a funny MU.
I propose a fourth reason, underdog learned the game watching film of top player so they know their habits better.
bottom corner of minute 4's graph just showing how marss dominates the ditto lol
6:26 lol
I sure hope I don’t run into a mirror match,
I play ice climbers
Man, I can't believe Prezi has stayed relevant since like 2010.
I think what people also neglect is mirrors are weird. Starcraft 2 is a great example where all the mirrors are radically different. Terran has a lot more mech and even BCs while Zerg is a mess and you are always worried about a six pool. And Protoss always bitch about PvP. I think what makes it hard is that it’s so different. All of you advantages are your opponents as are your weaknesses.
Honestly it's insane that a game where your own character is one of your worst matchups is just an accepted thing. It's so dumb, but that's why it's smash, isn't it
When I played Rivals, one of my least favorite matchups was the Forsburn ditto. Feels like a winning matchup for the opponent lol
i really like the jon bois-style of presentation here!
As a melee Pikachu player, I get a lot of groans when I want to ditto someone just because most pikachus like to combo and the ditto has little to no combos in it.
winning a ditto 1/3 of the time is not statistically significant at ALL. I would expect a better player to win 60% of the time in a mirror match. how often does a better player win in a non-ditto match when accounting for matchup? wassup??
Keep tracking of which character is yours could also be a element in ditto matches that influence the match up.
At least the Kirby ditto is a true 50/50 because like a true 50/50 MU, it doesn't exist.
THIS IS SO FACTS IT HURTS
Dittos can't decide who is the overall better player because it can't test every situation. For example, a Marth ditto is unable to show who is the best of the two at dealing with zoners. Maybe one of the Marths is slightly better in close range but significantly worse at closing the gap and so will have a much harder time in tournament.
If you've ever participated in character discords or Smashboards back in the day you'd know that top players often don't know shit about their own character. And it's to be expected. Tournaments and practice take up a lot of time and there isn't much time left over for in depth labbing.
Top players aren't the ones who play the most optimally but the most practically. They're the ones who know that, sure, it may be a little better to do some other option but the option they're doing is good enough and has easy execution they can pull off even when they're tired at the end of a tournament. They prioritize having strong b and C games for pools, conserving energy for later on in the bracket, and having a broad understanding of the game rather than a deep understanding of one character.
Lots of these mirror match upsets aren't as surprising to people in the know about the character's playerbase. They know who the specialists and labbers are and who has the sauce. And a lot of the time its not just that the top player isn't a master at the mirror match it's that the lower ranked player has a much better understanding of the mirror than they do a random matchup. Top players have a lot of experience and have been cheesed by everything under the sun while the lower ranked player is the one more susceptible to matchup checks. As much as the top player is stripped of some of their advantage the less experienced player is also stripped of a lot of their weaknesses.
the puff ditto is actually really fun in ult if you know how to combo floaties, and the puffs advantage against puff is actually insane lol
I can definitely say Diddy ditto is NOT 50/50
Me, a Plant main: I don’t have such weaknesses.
walt thank you for reminding me to rewatch light vs kaninabe
Personally, I think ditto matches are unfair due to both players practicing with said characters against OTHER characters, meaning that they have the same play style and don’t know how to work around it. Which in the end leads to a match that by technicality is even since both of them don’t really know how to fight eachother. Now of course with the statistics the better player knows how to use the play style better, but of course not perfectly against another player who is also using that play style.
I’m not sure if this applies to top players, but I’ve also noticed a mental dimension to mirror matches. Because mirror matches are perceived as the ultimate test of skill, losing to your own character feels like the ultimate proof that you’re objectively worse than your opponent. The panic and anxiety that thought results in can make it pretty difficult to play your best.
Me facing MKLeo and picking his own main:
I am... inevitable
6:23 why is he so stanced up lmaooo
I feel like in smash ultimate almost every character has a gimmick as well as certain moves/combos that can be abused. The "best" players learn to abuse these mechanics in their favor and usually practice against what they are both good and arent good against. So why can a ditto match end in the better players loss? Either they dont practice that matchup or its the sole factor of having a taste of your own medicine. Imagine shooting an unarmed person with a paintball gun, and then they run to someone who also has a paintball gun. Its no longer one sided on your end.
On a personal level, ditto matchups are just less intuitive to me. I'm always thinking as a player about what tools and traits I can use to make my opponent's matchup as difficult as possible, and what tools I need to watch out for so they can't do the same to me. In a ditto, these...end up being completely identical tools, so the situation ends up making less sense, and I'm left at a loss as to how to build any kind of adequate game plan.
the melee G&W ditto is 40:60, ive never met a single person who isnt bad at the ditto