Bravo on the disclaimer, Tom. I think it's really important for reviewers to disclose whenever there's any involvement with the development of a game. I think most people that watch your content recognize you wouldn't get involved with a game you didn't think was worthwhile...but being honest up front helps to put concerns to rest.
Tom laughing at the readers and journalistic integrity, snorting coke while lighting cigars with $100 bills inside his diamond limo thanks to all that sweet sweet LoL payoff money.
Rules correction: At 10:20 you show the damage card replacing the command card in slot 5. The damage card actually stacks on top of the command card, replacing its function. If the damage gets repaired, the command card will start working again.
WOW, it's happening! It's the second game that showed the level of what should be acceptable in the hobby for the next few years. First for me was Scythe - now I look at the quality of components twice before ordering other games, with MvM it seems I would have to triple-check :D
Played it last Friday. Awesome! The game is pretty cheap for the high-quality content you get Metal gears? Trays to fit all minions in? Really well designed.
Hey just wanted to say I'm a league player, and I really loved this video. It's making me want to learn so much more about traditional/tabletop gaming. Only thing I do like that is on pen and paper (DnD) so I definitely want to learn more about this stuff. Cheers! :)
Yeah, man, I remember when I started getting into board games in the late 2000's and being absolutely blown away by how far they've come from Monopoly, Sorry, and the others I grew up with (not that those games are the worst or anything). I think board games have started picking up with the local multiplayer scene where video games have mostly left that behind. There's something fun about playing a board game in the same room as your friends, as you probably know from your DnD experiences.
The reason why this game is only $75 is because they're bypassing retailers and selling the game direct to consumers; if they were to sell to retail, it would get another mark-up and cost likely twice as much. It has a little something to do with volume, but everything to do with selling direct.
I've literally never considered buying a game just because of the production value, but this is insane. If I get a surplus of money I might just get it to keep it as a pretty thing to open up every once in a while even if I hate the actual game those box inserts are sexy.
When you were going over the game I was thinking "this game looks fun but it's gotta be $150+" but $75?! Wow. Now I may need this.... But where to fit it on my shelf
True, but even without the middleman markup, 75 USD for that much plastic... We haven't seen anything like that since the days of HeroScape, which is economically unviable with how much oil (and thus plastics) has gone up in price.
when you take a slot damage, the damage card only covers the previous slot, it doesn't replace it. it WILL however replace a different damage card already slotted in that spot
man i hope more video game publishers do this i am personally not a big fan of league of legends but if this is only the begining then i can´t wait for whats to come!
Thanks for the review! Considering buying this because I am a huge fan of League of Legends, and I am also an avid board game player and tabletop enthusiast. It looks like there was so much time and care that was put into this game.
great video guys, good job all of you, enjoyed the three different perspective s.I am not normally a miniatures person but ordered and can't wait to receive my copy; in December! (european shipping in December).seems expensive but looks like you get your monies worth! thanks for showing what you get in the box Tom.
this game will bring a lots of new people to the hobby - 30,000 views after 17 hours and I can see in the comments a lots of people which watching this channel for the first time ... its not my stile of game but big + for the price and for the future big influence on industry !!!
This puts me in an interesting predicament: I love co-op games; I really find programming games intriguing; therefore a co-op programming game should be a great idea. The reviews are stellar. The price is reasonable considering that it's a mini-game, something I'm indifferent to. So now I'm truly intrigued as to whether to get this come October 13th or not, especially as all the reviews are very positive and the playthroughs look interesting that Rodney and Rahdo have posted so far. But is there enough game play there long term, more than the 12 envelopes worth? It seems so since you can replay it each time and end up with different cards and therefore different abilities programmed into your mech. And it's the same price as something like Blood Rage -- with the 5 player expansion. But it has vastly better production quality meaning, worst case, it'll just be enjoyable to stare at :-). Finally, with a print run of 30,000 copies it'll probably sell out in minutes courtesy of that 100M fan base. Even if only a fraction of a percent is interested it'll be gone in seconds. Which might just mean they'll print more. And, like many others, I had no idea what League of Legends was. I'm obviously out of touch with video games. That means I'm officially old now... I feel for all the boardgame companies out there. Everyone is going to compare any future published game to this even though Riot is using the advantage of not going through distribution channels and stores each of which need a cut. But all that will be lost on the hobby fans who will simply look at the $75 price and ask "Why is game XYZ $50?" or whatever. Interesting times ahead in 2017.
Wow this is worlds colliding for me. Probably 2 of my main hobbies coming together. I play a ton of League of Legends, so I'll probably have to check this out!
What Riot may teach them is that if you eliminate the middle men, you can sell a game cheaper-- though they probably already were aware of that. Interesting to contrast such a "customer-centric" approach (keep the game affordable because you care most about the end customer, not your distribution channel) as opposed to the recent trend towards "store-centric" which frankly, I think is a bad strategy and makes them vulnerable to such a contrasting strategy.
They make 1.6 billions of profit per year. if they were going to either sell the game at 100% or 0% profit it won't make a dent on their budget sheet. But this game will put a lot of pressure on the boardgame industry. For the same price point you got hundreds of painted miniatures on one side and on the other you get cheap plastic trains or a few wood meeples.
Uh... looks like only 4 are painted. But regardless, this won't put a dent in the industry. They're not going to become a game publisher putting out game after game, this appears to be a one off so there's no pressure here. They're not stealing designs from any of the publishers that already existed.
I feel this could never be from a boardgame company for that price. Riot puts this out to support their core business, anyone else couldn't put out a big game like this at that price. I think some don't realize how big Riot is.
+Matthew Gilbert I doubt it. Riot invested over 2 years of manpower, production, and development time into this game. The opportunity cost is enormous for them to do that just to break even. The board games market isn't that large that it's going to substantially impact their 100 million players. Board gamers are one of the smallest niche of gamers out there. Only a fraction of this niche will transfer to LoL. Only a fraction of that fraction will actually put any reasonable amount of money into LoL. For Riot to devote probably 3 years of their time on a project that breaks even on itself and instead relies on garnering at best 10k-20k reasonably paying players in their main game is shooting for an abysmally low standard, especially coming off of a game of LoL's prestige. Riot is probably making money off of this even at the low price. They are most likely relying on making it accessible to increase volume so their lower margin and market undercutting add up. It's essentially bringing one of the main concepts of the relatively new micro transaction model over; you win by being more accessible (more affordable) than the competition and recoup your low margins from that or threaten to run companies strategizing front-end profits out of business.
Except for all of the other boardgames that are coming out and are flying off the shelves for an equal price. Honestly with the quality of the components and the amount of figures you get I am shocked it is being sold for $75.
I'll also say apocalypse chaos is a programmed coop. you locked in your dice and strategy. though you can do the orders for each character in any sequence
Whoa, I look at my board game streams and BAM... 4 different videos appear within an hour of each other: hype much? It's almost like it was coordinated. When Rahdo agrees with Dicetower, whoa.
This is definitely a well thought-out marketing campaign. If on top of that you have a good game which looks great and sells for a very reasonable price (not to say mind blowing), you have a home run. I just hope I can get one!
I saw an article on Polygon about history of making this game with an obligatory typo in Tom's last name (Vasal :D). Looks like Quintin had more influence on this game (at least by the article).
Q: Why is this game so cheap? A: They are selling it direct. No distribution middle man or game store middle man. Publishers usually get about half of MSRP when they sell a game through distribution. By selling direct they are probably selling it for 60% of what they should actually price it at.
Not out till next month, it was just officially announced, however it was leaked and shared on the league sub reddit like a week before the announcement.
They could also just be taking a loss or breaking even. I seriously doubt Riot gives a shit if they make money off their board game. Sam making a huge deal about OMG HOW IS IT DONE? in the same video where they recognize that it's a multi-billion dollar company. Herp, derp.
Played league since the beta - I am not at all surprised that Riot nailed it on their first try. They are a pretty special game company in many ways. Loved to see that they flew Tom Vasel in to consult - that is definitely a Riot touch.
as if the META is the only "real" thing about the game. U can't have a META with all 130+ champs being equally strong & balanced, especially cuz the items aren't balanced and the snowballing is still real.
The game play looks pretty good here- they did do their homework and the combo of programming with power-up looks pretty neat. I'm not usually a co-op guy but this one looks like it might just hit a certain sweet spot that so far I've only found in some old and favorite Atari-800 games where you could play 4 players on joysticks all working together to beat an army of bad guys-- that was really fun and I've been looking for a co-op game that can produce that same feeling, and it looks like this one could be it... And as I've already posted in response to other comments here, the fact they get to pocket the distribution and retail margins by selling direct makes a big difference here. Such an end-customer-centric approach seems to me to make much more sense than the store-centric trend we've seen in the larger board game companies-- they set themselves up with that to be hit by this sort of thing-- that strategy actually made it more possible for Riot to release a game like this with a stunning price point, as all their board game competition has just raised their prices. Good job, kudos to Riot all the way around with this-- that's what competition is all about.
They are distributing the game themselves and not dealing with the regular distributors and game stores that then tack on their portion of the sales. This is the model that Asmodee and AEG should be following.
Uh, and then Asmodee and AEG would just sell games online at MSRP + shipping and you wouldn't have any channels to go through to get them at any sort of discount?
30,000 as a first print run is a HUGE amount of copies. Most of the games don`t reach that number in their lifespan. A small company will get around 1,000-2,000 copies for a first print. That's one of the reasons that the price can be 75$, more copies less money spent for each copy.
that is absolutely correct. but with a 100million playerbase as well as all us board game enthusiasts, these 30k will sell out like hot cakes. I'd bet the website will crash and after ten minutes all copies will be gone. check back on my comment here on the 13th october! ;)
I can't imagine any other publisher being able to pull off this game at this price point. I'm wondering if they are even making any money off the game...perhaps it's more of a pet project. And to top it off the game sounds great!
Hmm I'm subscribing to few different board game channels, and on 5 of them I see videos for the same game, uploaded at the same time. Do the publishers set the date for the reviews?
PhdStew tell me about it .. I was suckered by No Mans Sky and Evolve due to review embargoes ... with board games I've hard some very good luck, I can usually spot the good one's .. the one that almost got me was SeaFall which should have been great but wasn't quite there so I didn't pre-order (although I almost did I tell you).
Posted earlier to the Man vs Meeple video review of M&M: You guys eluded to the price point, but this can't be overstated. This game, from a component standpoint, is revolutionary. I'm not sure, but this seems to be a Riot Games loss leader venture. The game may be great, but this is setting the bar artificially high in the industry. I'm really conflicted on the long term impact of this game and the impact on the industry as a whole. I would really like to hear from someone like Jamey Stonemaier or owners of other companies, like CMON, who are pushing to have deluxe components, but not in retail editions. I was listening to the Miami Dice group, and Sam states, "See industry, look here at M&M, it can be done!" It can be? Really? I'm calling BS. It can't be done, or it would have been done already. Riot Games was able to produce this game because they have the resources to take a hit on this. M&M is a pure marketing ploy to draw people into their video game product. Love to hear some feedback and whether I'm way off base here.
I think one thing that is being missed is we are selling it directly from our store, that cuts out the distributor middle man which effectively doubles the price of any board game you buy.
You are saying "we", meaning you deal directly with the financials of Riot Games? Jamey of Stonemaier is going to chime in soon. He has his take. I get eliminating the middle man, but I'm not sure that takes a game of this component magnitude down to $75. It just doesn't add up.
Hm, I guess that producing a shitload of these does help to reduce the price. Keeping in mind the popularity of LOL I don't think they produced less than 100,000 copies.
It may be that the reason it "can be done" is that they have a different set of marketing options and a different customer base. They can market this through their existing video game channels as well as board game channels. And, they are selling direct which allows them to pocket the distribution & retail margins. Their existing customers may be video game fans who don't buy a lot of board games, and might need painted minis to attract, and they can also get noticed in the board game market with fabulous components at a great price point. Yes, it "can be done" but another company might not have the same set of options Riot has with this game.
Then it makes me wonder what stops a company like CMON from seeking a financial collaboration with a company that could help drive a product directly to consumers thus overcoming all the money hurdles of retail/distribution. I mean is Riot Games assuming their video game consumer base is now suddenly into board games? I know the board game industry is growing but it still doesn't attract the demographic that is going nuts with League of Legends.
Just on the league of legend web-site that's why it's so cheap.One rioter said with distributors and stores the price would be(Not sure if it's grammatically correct in english) 200$.
Sounds like your standard Campaign Game to me, in terms of game structure - which lets not forget with the big discussion of the Legacy mechanic recently is fairly standard. To price that style of components at $75, I'd presume it's got a larger print run than most board game publishers can manage. Here's hoping it works out for them and manages to sell out of that print run.
There is 100 millions of monthly users for LoL, I will forecast about 1% of their users will buy the game, that's a million copy, plus the couple of thousand of boardgamers like us who barely ever heard of League of Legends but are suckers for cool looking games.
i wonder if this is a game that can break the mold, recent Alaboom video podcast talked about how board games need to grow up and well a 1st print run of 500,000 + could be something that could do that. Just wonder how they could get the economies of scale to the point where this looks like this for the price they're selling it at.
I heard how its only 75 dollars multiple times. I also heard how the company that produced it is only selling direct to individual. Which means that they have cut out the friendly local game store. If a game store had to buy it for 75, wouldn't they have to sell it for 99-110 to make a small profit. So its not that the game is super cheap, it is that the game store is cut out. Won't hurt the industry if one or two games get left out, but if this becomes the norm we won't have game store any more.
When I Google this game and check the shopping results right now (10/30/16) the cheapest I can find it is $110 most places are selling it for more then $200. Is it already out of print? or was the $75 price point unrealistic?
You have to buy it directly from Riot Games. Anyplace else is going to cost more as they had to purchase it at cost and then mark it up to make a profit off of it. Riot is still selling copies (from a second printing now) on their website for $75.
Doesn't appeal to me at all, but I'm always pleased to see changes in the industry and seeing more people brought into the fold. It would be nice if other huge online games companies e.g. WoW or DotA dipped their toes similarly (I know FFG did a WoW long ago, but we've moved on a lot since then)
This is, hands down, the board game with the highest production values ever made, with the possible exemption of Kingdom Death: Monster, and not considering the HUGE price gap. I am not sure if Riot did really make any profit with this, even having sold them all out.
I was looking for a new co-op game (We frequent Harry Potter Hogwarts Battle) for my girlfriend, step son and myself, guys have me sold. Didn't look to difficult and even if it was for the boy, I like it can be adjusted till he figures it out better. I am a huge League fan, been playing since Beta, still Wood division but that's another story, but I think it'll go over well, I trust your reviews! Thanks again and good work guys.
Essen is a city in Germany where each october is held the biggest european boardgame fair (hundreds of games are released there). This year it's from 13th of october.
It is increasingly irritating me that Sam Healy doesn't have a matching watch. Please kindly resolve this. I vote that his band colour be green. It need not be operational, but for cosmetic effect, that would be great.
WOW, price point is crazy on this one! if this was at a store I'm expecting to pay 150 or more for something like this production has. Its amazing how cheap this is. However thinking about it more, a co-op game for 150+ would be pushing it. 75. seems reasonable. Production value top notch. Looks amazing!
They have no finacial risk at all and besides a few things (like the paintjob) it is really not that expensive in production. Even if only 1 % of their playerbase would the boardgame they could sell it for 50 bucks and still make money with it.
There is s very simple explanation for why they can price this game at $75. They have cut out the middle man. Considering most (all) retail items. At least as far as video games, board games, etc are concerned. There is approximately a 100% markup. This is why online retailers can afford to discount items 40% or more. So, JUST taking that into consideration (there is also the distributor markup, but I won't count that and just say that cost will offset the publishers cost of running the e-commerce site and the order fulfillment, storage, packing, etc), leaves an equivalent MSRP of $150, which seems right on target to what we would normally see a game of this size and quality prices at in a FLGS. ;) The bottom line is, they should make the same amount of money/profit as a game priced at $150 and sold through normal distribution channels.
One would think from the way they talk about Mechs vs. Minions, and from the comments here, that this is more about finding a good deal on a set of toys than finding a good game at a fair price. I get it - the price is good for the amount and quality of the components, but that's not what makes a game. It is often suggested, including on the Dice Tower, that Kickstarter games with miniatures always sell; This is the same thing, just not on Kickstarter. There are plenty of really good, inexpensive games that do not include nice components, but those aren't often talked about. Maybe it really is all about the toys and it makes me wonder how many people would still buy Mechs vs. Minions if there weren't any rules and it was just a box full of components...
like have thr campaigns as coop, and then have a 2v2 module or All v All module. :) but maybe those who want to can make their own house rules for versus mode. :) like making MODS in a video game. :)
This looks like a game that I can purchase and teach/play with my non gamer friends without having them grumble about the rules. What I need from you Tom is a way of teaching the rules to someone, I find that I do not do this very well and it makes it harder to get great games to the table.
G beau Well, as a personal recommendation, I usually start with the victory conditions- because everything else is just what you need to do to get to that point, right?
I have a question, what is the average price of a well built and polished like board game? Now I've only played simple games like Life, Monopoly, Risk, ect. ya know basic ones. They go for what like $20, so I'm assuming their types all fail in comparison to sumthing like this, due their simplicity and mass appeal to commoners.
In the $40-60 range, and most don't have close to this much stuff in the box. When I saw the contents I thought it was going to be in the $100-150 range
Yes, you're typical designer/hobby level board game starts at about $40 and goes up from there. $80 is typically high end but the components with this one are above and beyond.
Bora esperar algum tempo,talvez a Riot faça redistribuição em outros continentes além de NA e EU. Se isso acontecer e eles venderam aqui o preço pode abaixar bastante.
i have played around 3800 games of League of legends before i started with boardgames. So i'm really interested in this game. Yeah the game isn't the same as the video game but still a cool theme.
They did a 30,000 print run and have backing from Tecent, a giant Chinese company that probably has other resources in China. That's how they got the price down so low. Doubt anyone can match that price point ever.
From a Rioter. And that is a HUGE amount for a first print run if you know board games at all, especially for a first time designer and publisher. Even well known designers usually only go for 5,000 to 10,000. They did say they have a back up print run that can be ready by December in case the first print run sells out in October.
They make 30k copy, with backing from Tencent, which tells me that production is from China, which most of the time for boardgames, it usually is, and yet I still need to pay 60USD shipping from the US to Australia? BULL!!! Shipping from China for a box that size is 20USD MAX for B2C. Just ship them directly over ffs!
They did the production in China with a company called Panda Games. They made Bioshock Infinite (the board game), Mice and Mystics series, Xia: Legends of a Drift System, and Robinson Crusoe. Shipping is expensive anywhere in the world.
Stefan Lopuszanski I am definitely aware of Panda, yes shipping is expensive but not that expensive. Direct shipping from China to Australia is usually $15-$30. From US to Australia is around $60-$80 with UPS/USPS. They should have went with the former for Australia. $60 is ALOT just for shipping - not to mention wasteful.
Yeah, Quinns (Quintin) got flown out as well. He apparently gave them a ton of feedback on making it more replayable since it was horribly straight forward with not much replayability when he tested it.
Its great that Riot made a board game that can even impress these guys. They couldve easily went for a cashgrab but they didnt and thats admirable. Good job rito, now stop doing side projects and finish working on replays.
If all those minions are functionally the same, I think I would rather throw them all in box or baggie than have to sort through them and fit them back into the insert. It looks great, but it seems pretty impractical for putting the game away.
Yeah, once I looked closer I noticed that. However, if you watch Rahdo's video he basically says it takes forever to put them back and the insert makes the box way too big. He also says they seem super durable and would probably be just fine in a box or baggie.
There was another consultant according to this Polygon article. Both did influence the design as it seems :) www.polygon.com/2016/9/19/12949698/league-of-legends-board-game-mechs-vs-minions-launch-date-price
Death Angel isn't programming. Everyone has their spot in the line, and can move throughout it, but not in a programming manner. Still a great game though.
Bravo on the disclaimer, Tom. I think it's really important for reviewers to disclose whenever there's any involvement with the development of a game.
I think most people that watch your content recognize you wouldn't get involved with a game you didn't think was worthwhile...but being honest up front helps to put concerns to rest.
As far as I know, it's actually kind of the law FTC rules and shit.
And Riot is also not keeping a secret about it.
Amen!
Tom laughing at the readers and journalistic integrity, snorting coke while lighting cigars with $100 bills inside his diamond limo thanks to all that sweet sweet LoL payoff money.
Rules correction: At 10:20 you show the damage card replacing the command card in slot 5. The damage card actually stacks on top of the command card, replacing its function. If the damage gets repaired, the command card will start working again.
WOW, it's happening! It's the second game that showed the level of what should be acceptable in the hobby for the next few years.
First for me was Scythe - now I look at the quality of components twice before ordering other games, with MvM it seems I would have to triple-check :D
Played it last Friday. Awesome! The game is pretty cheap for the high-quality content you get Metal gears? Trays to fit all minions in? Really well designed.
Hey just wanted to say I'm a league player, and I really loved this video. It's making me want to learn so much more about traditional/tabletop gaming.
Only thing I do like that is on pen and paper (DnD) so I definitely want to learn more about this stuff. Cheers! :)
Check out the top ten lists of this channel if you want to be overflooded with what's been going on in board games for the last ten years :P
Yeah, man, I remember when I started getting into board games in the late 2000's and being absolutely blown away by how far they've come from Monopoly, Sorry, and the others I grew up with (not that those games are the worst or anything).
I think board games have started picking up with the local multiplayer scene where video games have mostly left that behind. There's something fun about playing a board game in the same room as your friends, as you probably know from your DnD experiences.
That is awesome! The Dice Tower is a great resource to learn about a lot of great games. I hope you find something you like :)
The reason why this game is only $75 is because they're bypassing retailers and selling the game direct to consumers; if they were to sell to retail, it would get another mark-up and cost likely twice as much. It has a little something to do with volume, but everything to do with selling direct.
Can I report my teammates in this game? Serious question.
I've literally never considered buying a game just because of the production value, but this is insane. If I get a surplus of money I might just get it to keep it as a pretty thing to open up every once in a while even if I hate the actual game
those box inserts are sexy.
When you were going over the game I was thinking "this game looks fun but it's gotta be $150+" but $75?! Wow. Now I may need this.... But where to fit it on my shelf
I'm kind of amazed that the MSRP is only$75. That's a lot of chrome in that ginormous box!
Probably taking a loss, with hopes of getting new users on the LoL tit
Possibly. I think it's more likely that they manufactured a gajillion and got the unit cost way down.
They ordered 30,000 to see how it goes.
They are the only one selling it so that keeps the price low as a store isn't buying from them and then selling on for a profit.
True, but even without the middleman markup, 75 USD for that much plastic... We haven't seen anything like that since the days of HeroScape, which is economically unviable with how much oil (and thus plastics) has gone up in price.
when you take a slot damage, the damage card only covers the previous slot, it doesn't replace it. it WILL however replace a different damage card already slotted in that spot
man i hope more video game publishers do this
i am personally not a big fan of league of legends but if this is only the begining then i can´t wait for whats to come!
Thanks for the review! Considering buying this because I am a huge fan of League of Legends, and I am also an avid board game player and tabletop enthusiast. It looks like there was so much time and care that was put into this game.
great video guys, good job all of you, enjoyed the three different perspective s.I am not normally a miniatures person but ordered and can't wait to receive my copy; in December! (european shipping in December).seems expensive but looks like you get your monies worth! thanks for showing what you get in the box Tom.
this game will bring a lots of new people to the hobby - 30,000 views after 17 hours and I can see in the comments a lots of people which watching this channel for the first time ... its not my stile of game but big + for the price and for the future big influence on industry !!!
This puts me in an interesting predicament: I love co-op games; I really find programming games intriguing; therefore a co-op programming game should be a great idea. The reviews are stellar. The price is reasonable considering that it's a mini-game, something I'm indifferent to. So now I'm truly intrigued as to whether to get this come October 13th or not, especially as all the reviews are very positive and the playthroughs look interesting that Rodney and Rahdo have posted so far.
But is there enough game play there long term, more than the 12 envelopes worth? It seems so since you can replay it each time and end up with different cards and therefore different abilities programmed into your mech.
And it's the same price as something like Blood Rage -- with the 5 player expansion. But it has vastly better production quality meaning, worst case, it'll just be enjoyable to stare at :-).
Finally, with a print run of 30,000 copies it'll probably sell out in minutes courtesy of that 100M fan base. Even if only a fraction of a percent is interested it'll be gone in seconds. Which might just mean they'll print more.
And, like many others, I had no idea what League of Legends was. I'm obviously out of touch with video games. That means I'm officially old now...
I feel for all the boardgame companies out there. Everyone is going to compare any future published game to this even though Riot is using the advantage of not going through distribution channels and stores each of which need a cut. But all that will be lost on the hobby fans who will simply look at the $75 price and ask "Why is game XYZ $50?" or whatever. Interesting times ahead in 2017.
I don't think I'd buy this one, but I'd definitely like to try it
Wow this is worlds colliding for me. Probably 2 of my main hobbies coming together. I play a ton of League of Legends, so I'll probably have to check this out!
Same here=）
Watch and learn, Cool Mini Or Not :p
What Riot may teach them is that if you eliminate the middle men, you can sell a game cheaper-- though they probably already were aware of that. Interesting to contrast such a "customer-centric" approach (keep the game affordable because you care most about the end customer, not your distribution channel) as opposed to the recent trend towards "store-centric" which frankly, I think is a bad strategy and makes them vulnerable to such a contrasting strategy.
They make 1.6 billions of profit per year. if they were going to either sell the game at 100% or 0% profit it won't make a dent on their budget sheet. But this game will put a lot of pressure on the boardgame industry. For the same price point you got hundreds of painted miniatures on one side and on the other you get cheap plastic trains or a few wood meeples.
Uh... looks like only 4 are painted. But regardless, this won't put a dent in the industry. They're not going to become a game publisher putting out game after game, this appears to be a one off so there's no pressure here. They're not stealing designs from any of the publishers that already existed.
All the 100 minions have been washed too. Look at the closely.
Julien Grenier Don't know if you're responding to me... your statement changes nothing about what I said.
I have to say when I heard Riot was making a board game I was skeptical, but man is that production value amazing and the game looks fun to play.
LIVE playthrough or RIOT!
Update: th-cam.com/video/GVL7aDNbjXc/w-d-xo.html
1000 thx guys ! You're the best!
I feel this could never be from a boardgame company for that price. Riot puts this out to support their core business, anyone else couldn't put out a big game like this at that price.
I think some don't realize how big Riot is.
Yeah, thinking this is a zero (or a loss) profit financial endeavor with the hopes of getting people on the LoL tit, which will pay off in Spades
Selling direct they don't have to compensate for the distribution and retail margins.
+Matthew Gilbert I doubt it. Riot invested over 2 years of manpower, production, and development time into this game. The opportunity cost is enormous for them to do that just to break even. The board games market isn't that large that it's going to substantially impact their 100 million players. Board gamers are one of the smallest niche of gamers out there. Only a fraction of this niche will transfer to LoL. Only a fraction of that fraction will actually put any reasonable amount of money into LoL. For Riot to devote probably 3 years of their time on a project that breaks even on itself and instead relies on garnering at best 10k-20k reasonably paying players in their main game is shooting for an abysmally low standard, especially coming off of a game of LoL's prestige.
Riot is probably making money off of this even at the low price. They are most likely relying on making it accessible to increase volume so their lower margin and market undercutting add up. It's essentially bringing one of the main concepts of the relatively new micro transaction model over; you win by being more accessible (more affordable) than the competition and recoup your low margins from that or threaten to run companies strategizing front-end profits out of business.
Except for all of the other boardgames that are coming out and are flying off the shelves for an equal price. Honestly with the quality of the components and the amount of figures you get I am shocked it is being sold for $75.
Oh, I am just saying it is hard for other to put a thing like this out at that price. Maybe not impossible but foolhardy.
think i might pick this game up, looks really fun, such great quality on all the miniatures and lovely art style.
Oh my.. That box insert... that price... This is gonna be a smash hit!
I'll also say apocalypse chaos is a programmed coop. you locked in your dice and strategy. though you can do the orders for each character in any sequence
Whoa, I look at my board game streams and BAM... 4 different videos appear within an hour of each other: hype much? It's almost like it was coordinated. When Rahdo agrees with Dicetower, whoa.
This is definitely a well thought-out marketing campaign. If on top of that you have a good game which looks great and sells for a very reasonable price (not to say mind blowing), you have a home run. I just hope I can get one!
Zee, Bomb Squad is co-op programmed movement, but it's also real time and has the Hanabi can't see you're own cards element from what I hear.
I saw an article on Polygon about history of making this game with an obligatory typo in Tom's last name (Vasal :D). Looks like Quintin had more influence on this game (at least by the article).
Q: Why is this game so cheap?
A: They are selling it direct. No distribution middle man or game store middle man. Publishers usually get about half of MSRP when they sell a game through distribution. By selling direct they are probably selling it for 60% of what they should actually price it at.
Where do you see it for sale?
Not out till next month, it was just officially announced, however it was leaked and shared on the league sub reddit like a week before the announcement.
It'll be on sale in October.
They could also just be taking a loss or breaking even. I seriously doubt Riot gives a shit if they make money off their board game.
Sam making a huge deal about OMG HOW IS IT DONE? in the same video where they recognize that it's a multi-billion dollar company. Herp, derp.
Michael Gold Most first games for any company don't make money. Based on the number of sales they'll come out a little ahead though.
Dice Tower, how does the game scale? What are the differences for the different player counts? Thanks, guys!
Played league since the beta - I am not at all surprised that Riot nailed it on their first try. They are a pretty special game company in many ways. Loved to see that they flew Tom Vasel in to consult - that is definitely a Riot touch.
Hope this game is more balanced then the game that it's based on
do you know that right now there are literaly no op chars
say what?
yeah, check the meta, players are saying that
as if the META is the only "real" thing about the game. U can't have a META with all 130+ champs being equally strong & balanced, especially cuz the items aren't balanced and the snowballing is still real.
Dice tower, Rahdo, Watch it played (more channels?) - all uploaded their video about this game at the same minute...
Hmmm...
Tom mentioned a while back in a live Q&A a major news coming up "once the embargo lifted". This is most likely that :)
Interesting, thanks.
Marketing done right
Video game companies have review embargos to keep critic ratings from being revealed until the game is released or whenever they set the date.
Press embargo's do that, which is a tool that video game publishers use a lot of, and board game publishers seemingly not at all.
The game play looks pretty good here- they did do their homework and the combo of programming with power-up looks pretty neat. I'm not usually a co-op guy but this one looks like it might just hit a certain sweet spot that so far I've only found in some old and favorite Atari-800 games where you could play 4 players on joysticks all working together to beat an army of bad guys-- that was really fun and I've been looking for a co-op game that can produce that same feeling, and it looks like this one could be it...
And as I've already posted in response to other comments here, the fact they get to pocket the distribution and retail margins by selling direct makes a big difference here. Such an end-customer-centric approach seems to me to make much more sense than the store-centric trend we've seen in the larger board game companies-- they set themselves up with that to be hit by this sort of thing-- that strategy actually made it more possible for Riot to release a game like this with a stunning price point, as all their board game competition has just raised their prices. Good job, kudos to Riot all the way around with this-- that's what competition is all about.
They are distributing the game themselves and not dealing with the regular distributors and game stores that then tack on their portion of the sales. This is the model that Asmodee and AEG should be following.
Uh, and then Asmodee and AEG would just sell games online at MSRP + shipping and you wouldn't have any channels to go through to get them at any sort of discount?
Hyped!
I hope a live playthrough is coming. ;)
30,000 as a first print run is a HUGE amount of copies. Most of the games don`t reach that number in their lifespan. A small company will get around 1,000-2,000 copies for a first print. That's one of the reasons that the price can be 75$, more copies less money spent for each copy.
that is absolutely correct. but with a 100million playerbase as well as all us board game enthusiasts, these 30k will sell out like hot cakes. I'd bet the website will crash and after ten minutes all copies will be gone.
check back on my comment here on the 13th october! ;)
Ten minutes is a little optimistic, worlds tickets sell out in seconds..
Yeah, i agree. The 2nd print will go live in a flash.
this is jaw dropping wished it was on general sale in uk
I can't imagine any other publisher being able to pull off this game at this price point. I'm wondering if they are even making any money off the game...perhaps it's more of a pet project. And to top it off the game sounds great!
Hmm I'm subscribing to few different board game channels, and on 5 of them I see videos for the same game, uploaded at the same time. Do the publishers set the date for the reviews?
maybe it's getting like the dastardly videogames industry with review embargos etc who knows...
They can, same things happens with Video Games.
There was a review embargo till today. It is pretty standard in the video/board game universe.
PhdStew tell me about it .. I was suckered by No Mans Sky and Evolve due to review embargoes ... with board games I've hard some very good luck, I can usually spot the good one's .. the one that almost got me was SeaFall which should have been great but wasn't quite there so I didn't pre-order (although I almost did I tell you).
If you cant die, is the only way you lose through the doom counter?
Also, I might have missed it but how does the doom counter go up?
Wondering how the game play compares with Bomb Squad?
Hm would you rather play this or Project ELITE? Sorry if the games are not too comparable - but I only have room in my collection for one of the two.
Posted earlier to the Man vs Meeple video review of M&M:
You guys eluded to the price point, but this can't be overstated. This game, from a component standpoint, is revolutionary. I'm not sure, but this seems to be a Riot Games loss leader venture. The game may be great, but this is setting the bar artificially high in the industry. I'm really conflicted on the long term impact of this game and the impact on the industry as a whole. I would really like to hear from someone like Jamey Stonemaier or owners of other companies, like CMON, who are pushing to have deluxe components, but not in retail editions. I was listening to the Miami Dice group, and Sam states, "See industry, look here at M&M, it can be done!" It can be? Really? I'm calling BS. It can't be done, or it would have been done already. Riot Games was able to produce this game because they have the resources to take a hit on this. M&M is a pure marketing ploy to draw people into their video game product. Love to hear some feedback and whether I'm way off base here.
I think one thing that is being missed is we are selling it directly from our store, that cuts out the distributor middle man which effectively doubles the price of any board game you buy.
You are saying "we", meaning you deal directly with the financials of Riot Games? Jamey of Stonemaier is going to chime in soon. He has his take. I get eliminating the middle man, but I'm not sure that takes a game of this component magnitude down to $75. It just doesn't add up.
Hm, I guess that producing a shitload of these does help to reduce the price.
Keeping in mind the popularity of LOL I don't think they produced less than 100,000 copies.
It may be that the reason it "can be done" is that they have a different set of marketing options and a different customer base. They can market this through their existing video game channels as well as board game channels. And, they are selling direct which allows them to pocket the distribution & retail margins. Their existing customers may be video game fans who don't buy a lot of board games, and might need painted minis to attract, and they can also get noticed in the board game market with fabulous components at a great price point. Yes, it "can be done" but another company might not have the same set of options Riot has with this game.
Then it makes me wonder what stops a company like CMON from seeking a financial collaboration with a company that could help drive a product directly to consumers thus overcoming all the money hurdles of retail/distribution. I mean is Riot Games assuming their video game consumer base is now suddenly into board games? I know the board game industry is growing but it still doesn't attract the demographic that is going nuts with League of Legends.
Can anyone tell me if there's space for sleeving the cards?
Just ordered wave 2 printing! I cannot wait!
Is this only going to be for sale through the League of Legends web-site, or are they shipping to distributors and stores?
Just on the league of legend web-site that's why it's so cheap.One rioter said with distributors and stores the price would be(Not sure if it's grammatically correct in english) 200$.
Sounds like your standard Campaign Game to me, in terms of game structure - which lets not forget with the big discussion of the Legacy mechanic recently is fairly standard. To price that style of components at $75, I'd presume it's got a larger print run than most board game publishers can manage. Here's hoping it works out for them and manages to sell out of that print run.
i wonder what volume of a print run they did to get the cost of this game where it is.
There is 100 millions of monthly users for LoL, I will forecast about 1% of their users will buy the game, that's a million copy, plus the couple of thousand of boardgamers like us who barely ever heard of League of Legends but are suckers for cool looking games.
i wonder if this is a game that can break the mold, recent Alaboom video podcast talked about how board games need to grow up and well a 1st print run of 500,000 + could be something that could do that. Just wonder how they could get the economies of scale to the point where this looks like this for the price they're selling it at.
30,000 in 1st print run, they're going to sell out quickly IMO.
I heard how its only 75 dollars multiple times. I also heard how the
company that produced it is only selling direct to individual. Which
means that they have cut out the friendly local game store. If a game
store had to buy it for 75, wouldn't they have to sell it for 99-110 to
make a small profit. So its not that the game is super cheap, it is that
the game store is cut out. Won't hurt the industry if one or two games
get left out, but if this becomes the norm we won't have game store any
more.
I was expecting a $200.00 price tag.
i expected 30$ but i didnt know the standard prices. ive research a bit and i agree that this is cheap for what is offers
I'm confused what would make you think it was $30 even if you had never bought a board game before.
i just wish i can preorder before its sold out lol
Phil D Ye i dont play boardgames and the ones i have played i didnt own. and also i havent played them in like 10 years.
Have a look at Games Workshop ^^
Why Zee doesn't have a card like Tom and Sam do? In the intro?
This is primarily a show with Tom and Sam but sometimes Zee will join if the game is big enough.
When I Google this game and check the shopping results right now (10/30/16) the cheapest I can find it is $110 most places are selling it for more then $200. Is it already out of print? or was the $75 price point unrealistic?
You have to buy it directly from Riot Games. Anyplace else is going to cost more as they had to purchase it at cost and then mark it up to make a profit off of it. Riot is still selling copies (from a second printing now) on their website for $75.
So it won't be coming out in stores? Meaning for international gamers, VAT will be applied?
Yup, looks like it - a very odd distribution model if they want to sell outside of the USA
I hope they'll change it. The game looks great
Doesn't appeal to me at all, but I'm always pleased to see changes in the industry and seeing more people brought into the fold.
It would be nice if other huge online games companies e.g. WoW or DotA dipped their toes similarly (I know FFG did a WoW long ago, but we've moved on a lot since then)
This is, hands down, the board game with the highest production values ever made, with the possible exemption of Kingdom Death: Monster, and not considering the HUGE price gap. I am not sure if Riot did really make any profit with this, even having sold them all out.
so finally riot games can be riot "games" now that they got 2 games
Can you suggest a game that are similar to thunderstone adv? Design, card game.
I was looking for a new co-op game (We frequent Harry Potter Hogwarts Battle) for my girlfriend, step son and myself, guys have me sold. Didn't look to difficult and even if it was for the boy, I like it can be adjusted till he figures it out better. I am a huge League fan, been playing since Beta, still Wood division but that's another story, but I think it'll go over well, I trust your reviews! Thanks again and good work guys.
Will it eventually be available in Essen?
Riot postet on his website (forum for the game): "We won't be at Essen this year, unfortunately."
when I say 13th of october for release date I could've bet they'd be at Essen
oh wel...
Essen..? What or where is THAT?
Essen is a city in Germany where each october is held the biggest european boardgame fair (hundreds of games are released there). This year it's from 13th of october.
It is increasingly irritating me that Sam Healy doesn't have a matching watch. Please kindly resolve this. I vote that his band colour be green. It need not be operational, but for cosmetic effect, that would be great.
No, no, no. Blue, man!
I don't need that much similarity, but I wouldn't argue strongly.
Looks amazing! Realy excited for this!
How do I explain a programming-game to my friends?
WOW, price point is crazy on this one! if this was at a store I'm expecting to pay 150 or more for something like this production has. Its amazing how cheap this is.
However thinking about it more, a co-op game for 150+ would be pushing it.
75. seems reasonable. Production value top notch. Looks amazing!
They have no finacial risk at all and besides a few things (like the paintjob) it is really not that expensive in production. Even if only 1 % of their playerbase would the boardgame they could sell it for 50 bucks and still make money with it.
There is s very simple explanation for why they can price this game at $75. They have cut out the middle man. Considering most (all) retail items. At least as far as video games, board games, etc are concerned. There is approximately a 100% markup. This is why online retailers can afford to discount items 40% or more. So, JUST taking that into consideration (there is also the distributor markup, but I won't count that and just say that cost will offset the publishers cost of running the e-commerce site and the order fulfillment, storage, packing, etc), leaves an equivalent MSRP of $150, which seems right on target to what we would normally see a game of this size and quality prices at in a FLGS. ;) The bottom line is, they should make the same amount of money/profit as a game priced at $150 and sold through normal distribution channels.
I just had a quick question, this game is set in the league of legends lore, does this board game have magic in it?
the spaces with the magic rune tiles do various things in different missions.
There first print one is 30,000 units. Idk if that's a lot or not. Maybe it can explain why it's so cheap?
When will this come out?
One would think from the way they talk about Mechs vs. Minions, and from the comments here, that this is more about finding a good deal on a set of toys than finding a good game at a fair price. I get it - the price is good for the amount and quality of the components, but that's not what makes a game. It is often suggested, including on the Dice Tower, that Kickstarter games with miniatures always sell; This is the same thing, just not on Kickstarter. There are plenty of really good, inexpensive games that do not include nice components, but those aren't often talked about. Maybe it really is all about the toys and it makes me wonder how many people would still buy Mechs vs. Minions if there weren't any rules and it was just a box full of components...
oh men. This game looks so good. i wish Tom suggested to Riot Games to make this game both Coop AND/OR Versus mode. :)
like have thr campaigns as coop, and then have a 2v2 module or All v All module. :)
but maybe those who want to can make their own house rules for versus mode. :)
like making MODS in a video game. :)
will this be sold worldwide? like in Asia?
nvm I watched the full vid now
This looks like a game that I can purchase and teach/play with my non gamer friends without having them grumble about the rules.
What I need from you Tom is a way of teaching the rules to someone, I find that I do not do this very well and it makes it harder to get great games to the table.
Watch It Played has this game up, they're usually pretty good at teach rules.
I mean for for like any game, I'm not sure what rules should go first or last.
G beau
Well, as a personal recommendation, I usually start with the victory conditions- because everything else is just what you need to do to get to that point, right?
I just found this game on the curb for free, new condition...I can't wait to figure out how to play and take it to our game meets
$75 plus $23 shipping, approx $100 total.
C'mon, other companies! Tony Stark built this in a cave! For $75! Step it up!
This came out?
I have a question, what is the average price of a well built and polished like board game?
Now I've only played simple games like Life, Monopoly, Risk, ect. ya know basic ones. They go for what like $20, so I'm assuming their types all fail in comparison to sumthing like this, due their simplicity and mass appeal to commoners.
$80-$100. USD I suppose. Keep in mind I pay for games in CDN so I don't know exactly.
In the $40-60 range, and most don't have close to this much stuff in the box. When I saw the contents I thought it was going to be in the $100-150 range
Anthony Hughes Yeah for a game like this I would expect around $100. $130 for me lol
Hmm how interesting, thanks for the insight.
Yes, you're typical designer/hobby level board game starts at about $40 and goes up from there. $80 is typically high end but the components with this one are above and beyond.
PT/BR: Com o dolar a 3,30 e com o imposto de importação (algo em torno de 60%), fica 400 reais fora a taxa de entrega '-'
Bora esperar algum tempo,talvez a Riot faça redistribuição em outros continentes além de NA e EU. Se isso acontecer e eles venderam aqui o preço pode abaixar bastante.
piraque ez Verdade.
Never even heard of Mechs Vs Minions.
i have played around 3800 games of League of legends before i started with boardgames. So i'm really interested in this game.
Yeah the game isn't the same as the video game but still a cool theme.
Room 25 is a co-op programming game
They did a 30,000 print run and have backing from Tecent, a giant Chinese company that probably has other resources in China. That's how they got the price down so low. Doubt anyone can match that price point ever.
Where did that 30000 number comes from? I would have expect way more
From a Rioter. And that is a HUGE amount for a first print run if you know board games at all, especially for a first time designer and publisher. Even well known designers usually only go for 5,000 to 10,000.
They did say they have a back up print run that can be ready by December in case the first print run sells out in October.
They make 30k copy, with backing from Tencent, which tells me that production is from China, which most of the time for boardgames, it usually is, and yet I still need to pay 60USD shipping from the US to Australia? BULL!!! Shipping from China for a box that size is 20USD MAX for B2C. Just ship them directly over ffs!
They did the production in China with a company called Panda Games. They made Bioshock Infinite (the board game), Mice and Mystics series, Xia: Legends of a Drift System, and Robinson Crusoe.
Shipping is expensive anywhere in the world.
Stefan Lopuszanski I am definitely aware of Panda, yes shipping is expensive but not that expensive. Direct shipping from China to Australia is usually $15-$30. From US to Australia is around $60-$80 with UPS/USPS. They should have went with the former for Australia. $60 is ALOT just for shipping - not to mention wasteful.
Oh wow, you got flown in to consult on it? Crazy
So did one of the guys from SUSD
Yeah, Quinns (Quintin) got flown out as well. He apparently gave them a ton of feedback on making it more replayable since it was horribly straight forward with not much replayability when he tested it.
Stefan Lopuszanski I hope they do a review as well... They kinda implied they wouldn't
I think we just witnessed a live playthrough of Snake Oil.
Huh?
'12:25 (75 minions)
Almost sounds like a co-op Roborally game.
Its great that Riot made a board game that can even impress these guys. They couldve easily went for a cashgrab but they didnt and thats admirable. Good job rito, now stop doing side projects and finish working on replays.
Is this the shopping channel?
This game and video gets flooded soon, calling it!
If all those minions are functionally the same, I think I would rather throw them all in box or baggie than have to sort through them and fit them back into the insert. It looks great, but it seems pretty impractical for putting the game away.
Probably done that way to preserve the pieces better.
Yeah, once I looked closer I noticed that. However, if you watch Rahdo's video he basically says it takes forever to put them back and the insert makes the box way too big. He also says they seem super durable and would probably be just fine in a box or baggie.
There was another consultant according to this Polygon article. Both did influence the design as it seems :)
www.polygon.com/2016/9/19/12949698/league-of-legends-board-game-mechs-vs-minions-launch-date-price
a hope they make a digital version it would be awsome
Came into watching this very skeptical, but now very interested.
space hulk death angel co-op programming?
Death Angel isn't programming. Everyone has their spot in the line, and can move throughout it, but not in a programming manner. Still a great game though.
so do I buy this first or cry havoc? ?????
Definitely Cry Havoc.
Are you looking for a co-operative or competative game? therein lies your answer
(Spoilers) Ah, so Rumble is a boss, for a moment i got scared that the mecha riding Legend was not in a mecha board game.
If you look closer, it's just a minion with a mohawk riding in his mech.
killerkonnat God dammit.
Rumble is the quest giver / storyteller, I would think. Seems like the minions stole his mech and took over the school.
Vincentoist Thats good enough, i guess.
I absolutely despise LoL as a die-hard fan of DotA its superior father. LoL is the Monopoly of videogames. However, I want this Boardgame right now xD
why do you need to hate it?
+Evilriku13 ikr
That's cheaper than MoM2e and food chain magnate!! Craziness
what is this?! My favorite board game reviewers, reviewing a board game based off of my favorite video game?!!