Hey Tom. Just wondering in 2016 what is your opinion now - Le Havre compared to Caverna? If I can only buy one of the two, which one should it be? After playing Caverna many times, some said that they really miss the focus that your cards give you at the beginning of the game in Agricola. Do you agree after having Caverna for 2 years now? Or do you stand by your review - That Caverna kills Agricola and is one of the greatest games of all time?
Okay Tom, I watched your video, bought the game and... I feel like you do. This game is amazing!!!! My only complaint is that it ends too soon. I want to do so many things and I'm having so much fun I want to shuffle up the cards and keep going. Thanks to you, Zee, Sam and the whole Dice Tower team for helping us find the best games for our money! Oh, and just so you know, next I am going back and picking up Le Harve based on your review of it. Brian
I guess Im asking randomly but does anybody know of a trick to get back into an instagram account? I was stupid lost my password. I love any assistance you can offer me
@Kian Zechariah i really appreciate your reply. I got to the site thru google and Im in the hacking process now. Looks like it's gonna take a while so I will reply here later when my account password hopefully is recovered.
Played this for the first time tonight with four others (2 of whom love Agricola, the rest of us haven't played any of them). It took us several hours as 3 of us were learning from scratch and the other two had only played Caverna twice. You are right about the weapons thing, I was the only one who didn't go for them and I won (even got an 8 point room because I didn't use weapons). My strategy was to start collecting sheep and planting crops and making babies asap. Then once all that was established I started worrying about filling out the cavern spaces. This game is awesome.
Wow. Tom is often enthusiastic, but I've never seen him gush like this. Pretty amazing. The price on Caverna made me hesitate, but only a moment... I always knew I was going to get this, and the couple videos I've watched on it, just made me more confident about it.
I also wonder if the interaction between players is high enough. I never played agricola and don't know if players are interacting enough. If it's minimal I'd rather play a game that has more. Games with minimal player interaction feel like singleplayer.
For someone who hasn't played or doesn't own any of those two games (Agricola and Caverna), which one would you suggest I get? Thanks for the great review Tom!
Caverna is a brilliant game, it really is. However Caverna and Agricola can co-exist on your game shelf. They're different enough and Agricola + Farmer of the Moor is much more hardcore and so suits the need for a knife-edge style game.
I think I'll miss drafting cards and building strategies/backup plans before the game. Also I don't get the Dwarf theme - seems pointless to sprinkle fantasy theme in this. That aside, there's no doubt this will sit beside the other Uwe titles on the shelf! For me it won't replace Agricola because the tension and difficulty of vanilla Agricola is what keeps me going back to it, not unlike punishing cooperatives etc. Great review as always!
So glad to get it for $62 with free shipping at cool stuff. I wanted to try Agricola, but I have to admit it's probably much easier to get my friends to play this one due to its similarity to Minecraft. I LOVE the solo game too. A bit long to clean up/put away, but it's a great time killer.
I did get myself a copy at Essen Spiel and had not played any Rosenberg except Bohnanza before. Caverna immediatley became one of my favorites. I have to totally agree with Tom. Caverna is one of the best games (if not the best) I have played so far. I have played it with every possible setup between 2 and 5 players and it works awesome in every situation. Would not go higher then 5 though.
Let me start off by saying, I've never played Agricola. I heard about this great new game was coming out named... you guessed it, Caverna. It is a beast to learn and probably harder for me because I didn't have a background in Agricola. There are soon many little rules that it does take a bit of time to play the first few rounds around. But let me tell you... this is my favorite game by far. There is so much room to let you explore and build in any way you want. Do you want to mine more or farm more? Plus it's nice that there is a certain number of rounds so there is known time limit. After watching this video, certain things popped out at me. Firstly, some of his explanations are not correct but I think he was so excited he was just rambling at times. i.e., you level up your weapon after each exhibition. also dogs are not counted as farm animals. secondly, there ALOT of pieces that make the game almost unbearable to set up. However, there are sites online that provided instructions to make a hard board dividers that hold all your pieces in a nice orderly fashion and allow it to fit in the box perfectly. I know this because I made it within weeks due to how much of a hassle pulling bags out of the box are. All you need is a sharp knife, hot glue, and hard black board. Easy! Overall, this game is sooooo fun, My wife was able to learn it within the second time around and she's is not nearly the gamer that I am so don't be discouraged if you hear other comments about its complexity. I was able to pick it up a local game store in Richmond, VA for HALF PRICE because it was in the scratch and dent section. So lucky but I was willing to pay full price as well. I never tried it solo, Only played it with 2 players so far. Get it, you'll never regret it.
Caverna is so much fun!! I was inspired to buy it partly by this video, and partly by its high ranking on BoardGameGeek, and my local game store owner's review of it being the "heaviest" boxed board game.. haha. Sometimes I watch this review video when I cannot sit down and play the game with friends. Kinda silly, yeah. Great review video :)
first time playing this game at game night. It's really great even with 6 but is a bit to wait for your turn, therfore the first player spot with the Ruby is always tempting. I totally forgot about animals and filled the cave but with the Ruby mine, ore mine and the building that let's you feed your people with ore...super great combo. Buying this game asap
I played this game at a convention a year ago with 7 players learning how to play it. The game took over four hours to play, and we still did not finish it. I will never play this game again with that many players. Like Tom says, I will probably stick with 4 to 5 players at the most.
I bit the bullet on this and bought it after reading a bit about it. Haven't got a chance to play it yet but glad to see I'm unlikely to regret the purchase.
Great review as always Tom. My wife hated Agricola because the feeding her people thing stressed her out too much but I think this may be something we'd both love.
All my games of agricola have only seen one person have to take a begging token. Its also easy to house rule that each worker only needs one food per harvest instead of two. Then you never have to think about food and you can build massive sheep farms if that's what you want to do. Caverna is bloated and there's no place to put the room tiles where everyone can see them well. We always end up putting them in a central location so everyone can be equally frustrated.
Finally played this. Was a two player game with my girlfriend. It is, by far, better than Agricola in every way. It is like Agricola 2.0 and so so so much better.
Hi Tom. First of all let me congraulate you for your channel. I think this is the video I needed to see. Let me explain: I'm new to boardgaming, but there are 4 games that caught my eye, 3 of them are in this video, the other is Robinson Crusoe. I was uncertain if it was better to get Agricola or Caverna. No more doubts. But Le Havre seems to be very cool also, even if it seems to scratch a different itch, maybe it's because of the theme, or the different mechanics, I don't know. Just a question, if I may ask: Considering I'm mostly a solo gamer and have a very tight budget, what do you think is a better game to get first, Robinson Crusoe or Caverna?
I don't believe you will never play Agricola anymore Tom! any other game you would throw to the floor without a seconds thought but Agricola, even replaced was carried out the room with reverence :)
Looks good, but the slightly discounted price at CSI is...81 bucks. I am usually not that concerned with price since value is based on many things, but this is stretching it.
In no way would this replace Agricola. The tiles are a step back from the interesting randomness of the cards. The Occupations/Improvements were more or less a strategic path for you to head down when improving your homestead. In Caverna, everything is plopped down on the table offering every player essentially the same choices. Replay value on the game drops due to this, in my opinion. Uwe kept the progressive revealing of cards from round to round, but even some of those are predetermined. Agricola is great from its variability, this one seems fun, though likely a bit "samey" after a few plays. This game is no longer on my wishlist.
What he actually said was "this is one of the best games I have ever played." That's a very different thing from declaring it the single best. And in the year since this review, as he has continued to enthuse about the game it's clear that this was not just initial excitement, he really loves it. And this disillusions you because...?
Wow...not sure if you like this game or not...(just kidding), ;) I can't afford this game currently, but it is certainly on my 'to buy' list. I am glad to hear that this is not exactly an 'Agricola' clone. Great, (and timely), review. Boy, you have sure been busy with the videos this week, I just don't know how you do it. Thank you for your dedication to the hobby.
I played Agrigola and I hated it, it was boring and "claustrophobic". Than I played Caverna and for me it's totally different, much of fun, more easy to learn and much less "claustrophobic".
Tom, its "le havre", not "le havra". For none French speaking people, just forget there is an "e" at the end and you will be closer. Anyway, your review made me add this to my wish list. Not a fan of agricola and Le Havre but this one might add what was missing for me to give it a try.
What's dumb about the game being called "Cave"? You are building your cave and surroundings after all... you could make a point for it being called Cavernas, as there are multiple caves... It might be referred ti the subtitle, but I think it just gives further clarification for the game style.
Yes I did...and I pre-ordered it (without paying) for Essen purchase. It just wasn't innovative in any way and wasn't worth the exorbitant price tag! I am much happier that I went home with Lewis and Clark, King and Assassins, Steam Park, and Legacy, to name a few. However, if you liked Agricola, you'll likely love this one. I thought Agricola was super boring. Caverna is a slight step up!
Well this game looks very lackluster to me... I've only seen the art in videos but it's not the kind of art that usually appeals to me... the theme is very meh to me... But after that review I feel I need to investigate the game now and give it a chance :)
I hope Ruby was not around while recording this review and didn't hear all these "spend the ruby" :) And, we will probably never see Terra Mystica review :))
![ทุกครั้งที่หลับตา (Lucid Dream) - AYLA's [ Official MV ]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/4i1OBAQyv58/mqdefault.jpg)
You are a pleasure to watch Tom, you seem like such a genuine guy with a beautiful family. Thank you for your. Videos.
Hey Tom. Just wondering in 2016 what is your opinion now - Le Havre compared to Caverna? If I can only buy one of the two, which one should it be? After playing Caverna many times, some said that they really miss the focus that your cards give you at the beginning of the game in Agricola. Do you agree after having Caverna for 2 years now? Or do you stand by your review - That Caverna kills Agricola and is one of the greatest games of all time?
But what if the game progresses?
NOTHING will replace Agricola.
If there was a Tom Vasel review drinking game, I think one of the rules would be to take a drink every time he says "As the game progresses" :D
Or every time he says "pwayer."
Okay Tom, I watched your video, bought the game and... I feel like you do. This game is amazing!!!! My only complaint is that it ends too soon. I want to do so many things and I'm having so much fun I want to shuffle up the cards and keep going.
Thanks to you, Zee, Sam and the whole Dice Tower team for helping us find the best games for our money! Oh, and just so you know, next I am going back and picking up Le Harve based on your review of it.
Brian
The name is not dumb. It means "cave", in Portuguese (and I think in some latin languages)
So Tom, any word on Caverna against Le Havre?
"You're in trouble: spend a ruby." Oh my god, they've put micro-transactions into a boardgame :o
I guess Im asking randomly but does anybody know of a trick to get back into an instagram account?
I was stupid lost my password. I love any assistance you can offer me
@Prince Edwin Instablaster :)
@Kian Zechariah i really appreciate your reply. I got to the site thru google and Im in the hacking process now.
Looks like it's gonna take a while so I will reply here later when my account password hopefully is recovered.
@Kian Zechariah it worked and I now got access to my account again. I'm so happy:D
Thank you so much you saved my account !
@Prince Edwin Happy to help :D
New drinking game: every time Tom says: “As the game progresses!”
Great review, btw! :D
I also added in every time he says "Dunkey"
I can't tell. Did he like it?
Played this for the first time tonight with four others (2 of whom love Agricola, the rest of us haven't played any of them). It took us several hours as 3 of us were learning from scratch and the other two had only played Caverna twice. You are right about the weapons thing, I was the only one who didn't go for them and I won (even got an 8 point room because I didn't use weapons). My strategy was to start collecting sheep and planting crops and making babies asap. Then once all that was established I started worrying about filling out the cavern spaces. This game is awesome.
Wow. Tom is often enthusiastic, but I've never seen him gush like this. Pretty amazing. The price on Caverna made me hesitate, but only a moment... I always knew I was going to get this, and the couple videos I've watched on it, just made me more confident about it.
I also wonder if the interaction between players is high enough. I never played agricola and don't know if players are interacting enough. If it's minimal I'd rather play a game that has more. Games with minimal player interaction feel like singleplayer.
For someone who hasn't played or doesn't own any of those two games (Agricola and Caverna), which one would you suggest I get?
Thanks for the great review Tom!
Caverna is a brilliant game, it really is. However Caverna and Agricola can co-exist on your game shelf. They're different enough and Agricola + Farmer of the Moor is much more hardcore and so suits the need for a knife-edge style game.
I think I'll miss drafting cards and building strategies/backup plans before the game. Also I don't get the Dwarf theme - seems pointless to sprinkle fantasy theme in this. That aside, there's no doubt this will sit beside the other Uwe titles on the shelf! For me it won't replace Agricola because the tension and difficulty of vanilla Agricola is what keeps me going back to it, not unlike punishing cooperatives etc. Great review as always!
So glad to get it for $62 with free shipping at cool stuff. I wanted to try Agricola, but I have to admit it's probably much easier to get my friends to play this one due to its similarity to Minecraft. I LOVE the solo game too. A bit long to clean up/put away, but it's a great time killer.
I talked to a friend about this game, and as I described he called also called it Minecraft: the Board Game. Cool.
Tom, does anything changed during the year since review? Do you still enjoy it more than Agricola and/or La Harvey?
La Havre *
I did get myself a copy at Essen Spiel and had not played any Rosenberg except Bohnanza before.
Caverna immediatley became one of my favorites. I have to totally agree with Tom. Caverna is one of the best games (if not the best) I have played so far.
I have played it with every possible setup between 2 and 5 players and it works awesome in every situation. Would not go higher then 5 though.
Let me start off by saying, I've never played Agricola. I heard about this great new game was coming out named... you guessed it, Caverna. It is a beast to learn and probably harder for me because I didn't have a background in Agricola. There are soon many little rules that it does take a bit of time to play the first few rounds around. But let me tell you... this is my favorite game by far. There is so much room to let you explore and build in any way you want. Do you want to mine more or farm more? Plus it's nice that there is a certain number of rounds so there is known time limit.
After watching this video, certain things popped out at me. Firstly, some of his explanations are not correct but I think he was so excited he was just rambling at times. i.e., you level up your weapon after each exhibition. also dogs are not counted as farm animals.
secondly, there ALOT of pieces that make the game almost unbearable to set up. However, there are sites online that provided instructions to make a hard board dividers that hold all your pieces in a nice orderly fashion and allow it to fit in the box perfectly. I know this because I made it within weeks due to how much of a hassle pulling bags out of the box are. All you need is a sharp knife, hot glue, and hard black board. Easy!
Overall, this game is sooooo fun, My wife was able to learn it within the second time around and she's is not nearly the gamer that I am so don't be discouraged if you hear other comments about its complexity. I was able to pick it up a local game store in Richmond, VA for HALF PRICE because it was in the scratch and dent section. So lucky but I was willing to pay full price as well.
I never tried it solo, Only played it with 2 players so far.
Get it, you'll never regret it.
I knew the component drop for this game was going to be epic.....I was not disappointed!
Great video, thanks for the in depth detail on the comparisons.
Caverna is so much fun!! I was inspired to buy it partly by this video, and partly by its high ranking on BoardGameGeek, and my local game store owner's review of it being the "heaviest" boxed board game.. haha. Sometimes I watch this review video when I cannot sit down and play the game with friends. Kinda silly, yeah. Great review video :)
I received the water expansion, but no rules to it. Do you know where I could find those?
If you don't want it I'll take your copy of Agricola Tom.
first time playing this game at game night. It's really great even with 6 but is a bit to wait for your turn, therfore the first player spot with the Ruby is always tempting. I totally forgot about animals and filled the cave but with the Ruby mine, ore mine and the building that let's you feed your people with ore...super great combo. Buying this game asap
I played this game at a convention a year ago with 7 players learning how to play it. The game took over four hours to play, and we still did not finish it. I will never play this game again with that many players. Like Tom says, I will probably stick with 4 to 5 players at the most.
I bit the bullet on this and bought it after reading a bit about it. Haven't got a chance to play it yet but glad to see I'm unlikely to regret the purchase.
Hehe, I loved your co-reviewer Tom. Keep up the good stuff.
I love this game. I could play it ALL DAY LONG!!!!!!!!!!
Him: drops stuff
My frames:ima head out
Great review as always Tom. My wife hated Agricola because the feeding her people thing stressed her out too much but I think this may be something we'd both love.
And I did get it! Couldn't even wait for Christmas to open it.
Ha! Great to see Tom so excited for a game.
What's the name of that little tinwhistle tune that plays during the component pour?
if Tom is 6 foot 4, then Melody is a taaaallll girl! Because she doesn't look that small beside her dad.
I suppose that Dwarf Fortress (computer game) could be one of the inspirations here.
That's what I thought of when I saw this.
All my games of agricola have only seen one person have to take a begging token. Its also easy to house rule that each worker only needs one food per harvest instead of two. Then you never have to think about food and you can build massive sheep farms if that's what you want to do.
Caverna is bloated and there's no place to put the room tiles where everyone can see them well. We always end up putting them in a central location so everyone can be equally frustrated.
Toppling the great Agricola will be hard to do I think. It does look great - although a bit more complicated...
Finally played this. Was a two player game with my girlfriend.
It is, by far, better than Agricola in every way. It is like Agricola 2.0 and so so so much better.
Please play Fields of Arle and tell me if this or Arle is better.
Tom, I feel like you didn't have a strong enough opinion on it and was left wondering if you would recommend this game or not.
Hi Tom. First of all let me congraulate you for your channel.
I think this is the video I needed to see. Let me explain: I'm new to boardgaming, but there are 4 games that caught my eye, 3 of them are in this video, the other is Robinson Crusoe. I was uncertain if it was better to get Agricola or Caverna. No more doubts. But Le Havre seems to be very cool also, even if it seems to scratch a different itch, maybe it's because of the theme, or the different mechanics, I don't know.
Just a question, if I may ask: Considering I'm mostly a solo gamer and have a very tight budget, what do you think is a better game to get first, Robinson Crusoe or Caverna?
I don't believe you will never play Agricola anymore Tom! any other game you would throw to the floor without a seconds thought but Agricola, even replaced was carried out the room with reverence :)
what about Agricola revised edition?
My birthday tomorrow and hoping (likely) to get this - so have planned a day of gaming!
Hi Tom
So, pls tell me now which game is Your favorite (Caverna or La Havre)
Oh great. Another board I gotta add to my collection.
All well. Life is always better with another good game.
...but then again, Amazon has it listed for almost $120. WTF?!?
Thanks for the heads up. It looks like the price is sky high because it is out of stock.
Thanks bro!
Sold! Thanks Tom!
hahaha. Love the part when you dump out the box w sound effects! Amazing!
So for sleeving purposes, does Caverna use the same sized cards as Agricola?
Best component drop ever!!!
Tom, I don't know that any other slo-mo pour will compare to this one
Absolutely epic component drop this time!
What music is that being used during him dumping out all the pieces?
I played my first game of Caverna yesterday, and won because the player who'd be ahead of me got a Begging tile :D
Looks good, but the slightly discounted price at CSI is...81 bucks. I am usually not that concerned with price since value is based on many things, but this is stretching it.
In no way would this replace Agricola. The tiles are a step back from the interesting randomness of the cards. The Occupations/Improvements were more or less a strategic path for you to head down when improving your homestead. In Caverna, everything is plopped down on the table offering every player essentially the same choices. Replay value on the game drops due to this, in my opinion. Uwe kept the progressive revealing of cards from round to round, but even some of those are predetermined. Agricola is great from its variability, this one seems fun, though likely a bit "samey" after a few plays. This game is no longer on my wishlist.
Oh, yeah. Christmas here I come!
"As the game progresses" count: 10
I've never seen a review like this by Tom. I must have this game now.
But maybe I'll wait to see what Zee says about it.
I'd really like Zee's and Sam's opinion on this too.
We know you love games like this, but do people who are not _that_ into agricola also like it?
I believe Tom when he says "X game" is the best he has ever played. He says it so much that I am starting to get disillusioned to that claim.
What he actually said was "this is one of the best games I have ever played." That's a very different thing from declaring it the single best. And in the year since this review, as he has continued to enthuse about the game it's clear that this was not just initial excitement, he really loves it. And this disillusions you because...?
Wow...not sure if you like this game or not...(just kidding), ;) I can't afford this game currently, but it is certainly on my 'to buy' list. I am glad to hear that this is not exactly an 'Agricola' clone. Great, (and timely), review. Boy, you have sure been busy with the videos this week, I just don't know how you do it. Thank you for your dedication to the hobby.
I think Tom likes this game.... it's now on my list to get....
nothing is better than agricola!
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what's a dunkey?
We never have enough stone/rock in our games. The game only ships with 25 stone compared to 45 wood.
You could just go outside and get some actual rocks.
So surprised it replaces Agricola for you. Interesting!
I think he likes it.
Will Tom have to re-do his top 100?
Tom... Have u played keyflower ?
Looks Awesome.
If you have two or more Dunkeys you'll get an extra Dunkey..wow three Dunkeys that would be quite the world
So, Cosmic Encounter finally dethroned? :D
Of course you talk me into wanting this game, and then it's sold out on Cool Stuff Inc and Amazon... bummer.
can't believe tom forgot about mentioning ora & labora
I played Agrigola and I hated it, it was boring and "claustrophobic". Than I played Caverna and for me it's totally different, much of fun, more easy to learn and much less "claustrophobic".
As the game progresses.
Even if Sam and Zee hate it, I'm sure they'll be happy to never hear about Agricola again.
Tom, its "le havre", not "le havra". For none French speaking people, just forget there is an "e" at the end and you will be closer.
Anyway, your review made me add this to my wish list. Not a fan of agricola and Le Havre but this one might add what was missing for me to give it a try.
Hmmmm, I wonder if Tom likes Caverna????? I just can't tell!
I couldn't justify 60 Euros at Essen for an Agricola redo...not when there were great new themes out there!
Come on, let Tom enjoy his game. I'm sure others have games that get laughed at as well.. Lol.
Is Agricola really pronounced "A-greek-ala"? I've always pronounced it "Agri - cola" like "Angry - cola".
a-GRI-coh-la is probably the closest proper way. though a lot say a-GRICK-oh-la as well
i confirm the right pronunciation is the one heard in the video.
What's dumb about the game being called "Cave"? You are building your cave and surroundings after all... you could make a point for it being called Cavernas, as there are multiple caves... It might be referred ti the subtitle, but I think it just gives further clarification for the game style.
lol Zee said it was good not great, I assume Tom played with him :)
At least the game seems to be progressing quite a bit! ;) thanks for the review... Me thinks this game is not for me tho.
Looks like quite the clusterwhoops.
dat component drop tho :O
Yes I did...and I pre-ordered it (without paying) for Essen purchase. It just wasn't innovative in any way and wasn't worth the exorbitant price tag! I am much happier that I went home with Lewis and Clark, King and Assassins, Steam Park, and Legacy, to name a few. However, if you liked Agricola, you'll likely love this one. I thought Agricola was super boring. Caverna is a slight step up!
Fantastic game.
Well this game looks very lackluster to me... I've only seen the art in videos but it's not the kind of art that usually appeals to me... the theme is very meh to me...
But after that review I feel I need to investigate the game now and give it a chance :)
I hope Ruby was not around while recording this review and didn't hear all these "spend the ruby" :) And, we will probably never see Terra Mystica review :))
I WANT IT!!!!!!
Wow, with a review like that I will try it! lol :)
I would place Caverna in my top 400 of Essen '13! I think Tom has lost his mind on this one!
Gosh, never thought this game was that good.
there's no occupation or improvement cards in this game... i suspect it is more like ora & labora than agricola...