Continuing my trend of being excessively informative, this video has more than you probably wanted to know about Manganese Blue Hue. I did touch on the recent Daniel Smith controversy, but please know that anything I share is to help you make the best consumer decisions possible (and NOT for drama, though I am aware some artists are pretty upset with DS right now). No matter what your opinion of DS, I hope that the paint info, lightfast tests and how I achieve replica mixtures will be helpful to you. I noticed that Manganese Blue Hue and Lunar Black average about $10 per 15ml tube, while Lunar Blue was about $13 and Blue Apatite was about $18 (at the time, on Blick USA). For those wanting to replicate the more expensive Primatek colors, it can often be accomplished using cheaper pigments. Manganese Blue Hue not only replicates the old PB33, but can replace Blue Apatite and Lunar Blue while remaining independently versatile. In last week's video I showed how adding PBr11 can replicate up to 5 different Primatek minerals when combined with common colors likely already on your palette ( th-cam.com/video/_9g43QidSeg/w-d-xo.html ). Once I complete my top recommended pigments list, I expect to be able to replicate a great many popular mixtures, color separating effect paints and minerals like those in the Primatek line, all by using a relatively short list of super useful colors. Resources - my top favorite pigments list can be found at www.kimcrick.com/pages/top-lightfast-watercolor-pigments Info about the issue of Primatek mineral paints not seeming to be made of what they imply can be found at instagram.com/p/CN4TTo-FbiT/ and if you're curious about the person behind this polarized microscopy analysis, it was done by a reputable geologist who specializes in pigment studies, you can find more info about her by googling "Ruth Siddall UCL".
Not excessive for me! I love learning all these things! I gotta say I really prefer when a company discloses what's in their product so I know what I'm buying. It's more important for me in food, but I really want it in general. I like the DS paints I do have, and I also like my Senneliers even if I have been informed that they use a lot of brighteners (do you know anything about that?) Loved your art in this one! It's always such a treat to watch you paint!
I really appreciate your demonstrations on mixing your own versions of other unusual/expensive/fugitive paints. I'd rather do that, especially now that I probably won't buy any more DS.
@@Finkeldinken There is a fluorescent dye, likely rhodamine, in opera pink. Otherwise there are no traditionally defined (fluorescent) optical brighteners or dyes used in Sennelier or Van Gogh. None of the paints glow under black light (and as far as I know all optical brighteners/whiteners are fluorescent, working by refracting blue light UVA spectrum). However, this doesn't mean there isn't a different chalky type additive to help the color stand out better (sometimes seen as a chalky top layer if painting over black paper). It's possible someone mentioned a brightener as it's job description, but not as the right term to indicate these fluorescent additives. I will look into other types of additives and make a video if I figure it all out :)
For those who haven't seen it, Handprint has an article/review on the Primatek line from when it first came out. Just google Handprint Primatek and it'll come up. Since they have changed the line since then, some of it is outdated. He also suggested some of them might have just been lunar black with other pigments, like you showed in last week's video. Bruce basically called this way back when.
So I added my two cents in another place, but I will put it here. My wife is an artist and was excited to get the PrimaTek colors. I am a mineralogist and knew that something was off, but she was happy and the colors are really nice, plus you can get some good textures. Anyhow, one day I took a couple of her paints into the lab to perform some elemental and phase analyses on them. Low and behold, they were far from pure minerals in a gum arabic base. It is important to note that 90% of minerals powder up white, even quartz (amethyst), when ground will look white. Also, most mineral sources mined have ancillary minerals with them that get ground up along the way, thus you will rarely ever have a pure single mineral pigment. I emailed DS and asked about the data I collected and never heard back. I really like the idea of returning to the use of base minerals for pigments. The colors are really nice and technically those minerals are there...just in very small quantities.
Yes, Daniel Smith definitely has a tendency to mislead regarding the idea of a color being solely that single type of crushed up rock. I too have sent them questions regarding misleading paint properties and been ignored. I am not surprised about the questionable content, but I have been quite surprised at how many people are convinced that you simply can't replicate the look of these paints. It is quite fun to remake their mixtures for yourself. As a bonus we can save a bit of money buying less costly ingredients to recreate these fake "genuine" paints too. Thanks for stopping by!
You are remarkable, Kimberly. I'd have never thought to look at this color with a black light, and that's the issue I take concern with in this whole DS discussion. As you've stated, you and other informed content creators and scientists are doing so much work that should be openly available from the companies who sell and market these paints. Transparency is key so that consumers can make informed buying decisions. If multiple pigments or fluorescents aren't labeled (or are labeled inconsistently), that takes away consumer choice. Since opera rose is labeled as fluorescent, one would assume that colors not marked in this way do not contain it. Likewise, multipigment paints list their various pigments, so if phthalo green is added to a primatek for consistency, I'd want to know that. I'd still buy colors I like... However, when a company then doubles down and treats their customers like they have no idea what they're talking about.... it's all just really disheartening. Thank you for all of your dedication to this effort!
Thank you, I really debated if I should make this kind of video. It's a bit stressful knowing this topic upsets people and sometimes that frustration gets aimed at the messengers. I hope that the community pressure on companies will result in better products and practices in the future. This whole controversy has been a bit disheartening, everything from Daniel Smith's response to the drama as well as fierce disagreements to insults between fellow artists. With the past year we've all had in world events, I dislike seeing negative things disrupt the peacefulness of making art. It's difficult to stay neutral, point out things like hidden ingredients or quirky lightfastness, while feeling free to admit that this color is still beautiful and useful to have. While I'd really love to know exactly what's in this paint, I don't expect a very specific chemical description or dye code for the fluorescent additive in MBH, it's likely a trade secret. Even if it's an optical brightener and not a dye/type of colorant they would normally list, I would have appreciated seeing "fluorescent" written on the label. I was at least relieved to see that this seems to be a colorless additive which didn't ruin the lightfastness of the underlying PB15. Because MBH, Lunar Blue and Blue Apatite are all lightfast, I honestly didn't think to black light test them for a very long time. There's one thing I'm still realllllyyy curious about though... I wonder if Ruth Siddall would be willing to verify if this glow is the same ingredient seen in Blue Apatite under a microscope...or if Blue Apatite's glow is truly from fluorite/natural...
Denise! I've already been wondering how you feel about the recent developments regarding Daniel Smith. I completely agree with what you said, transparency is the number ONE rule when it comes to artist-grade paints, and the fact that Daniel Smith not only disregarded that but also disregarded customers who brought up the issue with them is almost unbelievable.
About lightfastness - I'll be going over the masstone and diluted lightfast test results for the entire Daniel Smith catalog in the future. For now it's mainly the mayan colors, slickerite, rhodonite, moonglow and shadow violet showing unexpected fading, as well as the ones we all know are bad like opera, prussian, aureolin, alizarin and anthra red that are real problems. Manganese Blue Hue is rated LFII, which results in minor, nearly imperceptible dulling or hue shifts in normal visible light. The black light refracting of blue light is fugitive, but most artists would never know this happened (even though I think that we should know, the colorless additive doesn't drastically change the base appearance). On this particular lightfast strip I was a bit more concerned with the LFI cerulean graying above it and the drastic fading in Mayan Blue also noted as LFII. Only LFI colors should remain completely unchanged in long term tests. ***I just looked at my masstone and diluted lightfast strips and at 6 months there is no visible fading in MBH even when diluted with at least 50% water, so that's very good.*** Absolutely understand the feelings about Daniel Smith at the moment, but I also know that certain colors they make are valuable to artists. I'm doing my best to recreate any of the colors that are outrageously expensive, and generally replicate mixtures so that people can make their own decision if they'd like to try mimicry with other brands. I would 100% be on board with forcing them to list ingredients (even it was vague to protect trade secrets, such as labeling this "fluorescent" like opera pink does though it doesn't tell us the type of dye or brightener chemically. When emailing about a dozen different paint manufacturers for clarity about what the fluorescent ingredients were actually made of I got a lot of brush offs "that's proprietary" they'd say. There were only two companies that were really open and honest about their ingredients: Kremer Pigments and Golden/Qor. Golden even put me in touch with their lab director and we had a great chat about chemicals, so I really love them for that :) I've been sad to find a lot of lies about lightfastness throughout many big brands due to negligence of proper testing or just going off what the pigment manufacturer told them (even Schmincke and Roman Szmal are guilty of this). Winsor and Newton offers a cadmium free orange made from a fugitive red-yellow mix which doesn't even offer pigment codes ("trade secret") yet labels it LFI. So sad all around that I feel the need to do so much investigative work on behalf of giant companies that don't pay me!
A lot of people are reluctant to buy QoR paints due to their price, but I think their openness about their products should be factored in to the price. I really like their products, and will buy more because of their transparency. (Watercolor joke intended. :P)
@@sosumi_rogue Lol thank you for the chuckle :D They make good products, but they are hard for me to use because of my tendency to want precision. If QoR didn't act so uncontrollably high flow in wet washes from the aquazol binder I would use them more often. If Golden made a normal watercolor line (which should be more affordable since they supposedly can't put as much pigment in normal gum arabic formulas) I would buy it immediately! I absolutely have nothing but high praise for their customer support and amazing willingness to chat with me about paint ingredients. They are probably the most wonderful company regarding lightfast testing too. I'm so impressed with their Just Paint blog. Check out all the tests they run!!! justpaint.org/lightfastness-testing-at-golden-artist-colors/
The level of time and preparation and research you put into these videos is mind-boggling. With your lightfast testing included, these videos are YEARS in the making! 😂😳 Truly you give so much to the art community! Thank you, as always, for the information and lovely art.
I just dabble in watercolor for therapy, but I love working with pro paint because the pigmentation is so rewarding even with my blobby messes. I gravitated to Daniel Smith because they provided a straight-forward essentials set and I thought it made more sense to buy than to risk the frustration of muddy mixes as I was starting out. And then, since DS is local to me it's relatively easy to find deals on additions to my essentials. I've grown my set of tiny DS tubes way too large, and it's actually a management problem. I branched out into Winsor Newton for one tube, and I like them too! Anyway, I am not one to take a side. Coke and Pepsi are both fine. Canon and Nikon make all levels of cameras and are awesome. I've owned both Fords and Chevy's and loved them both. And I have a degree from each of the two main rival schools in my state of Washington, so I win no matter which team takes the Apple Cup. As you can see I'm a pure centrist, but I mostly only have pro-grade paint experience with DS. Do you think other pro-level paint companies have slightly disappointing secrets too? It seems to me that DS is especially picked on, but maybe Windsor Newton, Holbein, etc. has some trickster mixes too? I'm just asking the question because I'm curious. Just as with everything else I've mentioned, I have no skin in this game.
The problem with Daniel Smith compared to other brands is they have far more unusual specialty colors than any other brand. You won't run into this issue, or the additional undisclosed pigments in the mineral/primateks, with most other brands because other brands don't even offer them. A lot of people got upset with DS because the special colors weren't labeled as clearly as the rest of their line and many people made their purchases based on the incomplete ingredient list or an incorrect lightfast rating that wasn't fully tested. That being said, they make beautiful paints and a lot of people buy them just for the pretty color so I can see some folks not being bothered by it at all :)
I’m glad someone else also found this out! I noticed it maybe around one year ago, when I had painted a bird and used this color in it, and left it in my kitchen wall to dry out. We have a “mosquito lamp” on at nights in the kitchen, that has that blue light, and in the night when I went to get water, I saw that my bird painting was glowing in dark 😂 I figured that either it has fluorescent or bright white mixed in, but it was so glowy that I figured it might be the first option…
That is such an interesting way to have accidentally found out about this color's properties. I was really happy to see that despite that glow, it's still very lightfast as a blue. Unlike some fugitive fluorescent dye additives it seems to be a colorless optical brightener like those in bleach/detergent products. That must have looked so surprisingly bright on your bird! I think the unique glow will be a fun thing for some artists to purposefully play with. Happy painting :)
I love this story 😂 I just imagine what it would be like to go up in the middle of the night and suddenly realise that your painting glows in the dark 😆
I work with gem stones and semi-precious gem stones and I know that there is more variety than uniformity in colours and tones. I was not surprised to find out they had to add pigments to get consistent colours. And like you I would prefer to have all of the ingredients listed, but it ultimately doesn't change my mind about Daniel Smith, and I never did buy more than one of two tubes of the Primatek line and I never regretted those, really. It's great to be able to mix your own.
Honestly I feel like it's really scary right now to share our opinions as content creators, even if we try to stick to the facts and not be angry / remain as unbiased as possible... Some people seem cult level brand loyalist, while others are ready to bring real anger to the conversation. Either way, I just want people to be better informed, because it really sucks how much unpaid research and lightfast testing I do on behalf of these companies :(
No kidding, if you look at their post on the FB page there's so many responses that are truly cult-like, saying "I can't believe you even had to make this statement" and expressing their concern that DS's feelings are hurt. Nobody asked who was this person, what was "the statement" or what the issue was! Also I think DS was deleting critical comments, although, they did leave mine up.
@@KimberlyCrick PS You are doing great work, and I appreciate it. I've been using your site regularly. DS supposedly tests their own paints for lightfastness, although I have been wondering if those tests are conducted with natural light in Seattle, which might explain why they rate their Anthraquinoid Red "excellent."
@@jennw6809 Yes, definitely weaker sun in northern climates matters, but just how diluted they test their colors is going to make the most difference. Even in sunny FL PR177 can be nearly stable if used in a thick full strength masstone. It's only when it's diluted with at least 50% water does it start to show signs of the terrible fading like we see evidence of in Moonglow. I would love to know what ratios of diluted/tints they test!
Wow, turning on the UV light at 3:08 was sooo cool! This is exactly why I love your videos and channel. Your honesty and informative content is always appreciated. It's great to see how we can mix some look-a-likes for Blue Apatite and Lunar Blue. Regarding the drama, I completely share your opinion. No one should have been surprised that there are additives to the products... Have you seen all the garbage that goes into our food? Should DS have disclosed the ingredients? Yeah probably, but no company is perfect. Their marketing choices don't suddenly change the fact that they do some colors well. I like how you put it, "Collect pigments, not brands". I'm going to have to check out that M Graham Viridian you mentioned! As always, great video and gorgeous artwork. Thanks for sharing!
For science enthusiasts: **Refract vs fluoresce?** Whoops! I likely misspoke in the video at 3:40 regarding what visually appears similar to light being reflected (a glow effect) from the optical brightener. The molecules may get excited under UV (black light), fluoresce (emit blue light) and be considered "fluorescing" instead of "refracting". Refract is a term for light changing direction, usually as it passes through something else. Perhaps the paint and I both got excited (lol), but the thought behind "refraction" here has to do with the resin particles involved (often used in the making of fluorescent pigment powders). I asked one of the manufacturers of this type of UV effect paint about what was causing the glow. I was told that "the resin itself is refracting UV-A light". Kremer says the resin (either functioning as an optical brightener itself, or a binder for it) is hardened/dried, then pulverized into a powder like tiny clear crystals to be used in paint. Happy painting everyone :)
Thank you, I needed to hear that! It's a tough job staying neutral and hoping that the information can be helpful to people of varying opinions. It's been a little stressful with some responses being pretty darn upset with DS and not being open to the value of these kind of unique colors. I struggle a bit when deciding to put this type of video out there, because I realize that as the messenger I may get a bit of backlash. After researching so much about paint ingredients, information like this just seems too valuable to keep all to myself :)
There is no such thing as excessively informative! This was a wonderful video and a wonderful painting, thank you so much for sharing your experimentation with all of us!
I love manganese blue hue and it's on all my palettes. I discovered the glow effect a while ago, when I was checking a student brand I bought for flourescents and then thought to check all my swatches as well. Funnily enough I plan on doing a picture with fish as well lol- I just haven't got around to it yet. MBH is really good for getting that cloudy effect that olives and grapes have- the granulation seems to push through and settle on top of some other colours which can be quite effective. No other paint I've tried does the same.
I don’t understand why people “blame the messenger “ as you are just giving them more information, not telling them what they can or can’t buy. They can still make their own decisions about paint purchases. I appreciate your research and sharing of information, although I’m only about to start trying to paint with watercolors.
This was a wonderful encapsulation of information! However, I’ll have to watch it many times to absorb everything! I have made a habit of staying away from paints that say “hue” because I think I’m more of a purist. But you have totally peaked my interest in the effects that can be had by trying something new! Thanks!
You won't be sorry if you give it a try. I've been a huge fan of Manganese Blue Hue since I first tried it 16 or so years ago... it's probably my favorite blue at this point and finds it's way in to nearly every painting.
Hi Kimberley, again a great video. Great in research, great in educating those who watch it and want to learn / know their paints. Also great in staying without prejudices. Keeping that neutral position of the paint researcher and teacher you have somehow become. I agree (I read all the comments): you are not payed, you are doing the work of companies themselfes (real in-depth lightfastness tests etc.) and get nothing. Maybe for the best. This way you can speak up and you'r allowed to talk free about your findings. But I agree, it is a big work you're doing. You are one of the few people I refer to when it comes to paint and pigment information, when I want to complete my own little research. So thank you for all your work. Really, thank you very much. (I hope this is understandable, for English is not my first language)
Thank you, I appreciate that. Yes, you're probably right - I do have complete freedom in choosing my research and can stay as neutral as possible without brand loyalty. I'm free to say things the paint companies won't like without fear of upsetting the boss. I'd probably be considered a bad employee if I was always pointing out problems lol :)
I've had Daniel Smith's manganese blue hue on my palette for a couple years, and I love it as a bright sky blue. It's so fascinating to hear that it's actually fluorescent! Your use of the fluorescence in the final painting was really cool to see, and is definitely a dimension of watercolor that I've never considered before. Thank you so much for sharing!!
So interesting! I am always fascinated by your analysis and will willingly follow you into the deep weeds! LOL! I am very intrigued by this now. I never had any of the Magenese Blue Genuine but LOVE the Hue. After all, it's close to "Carolina" Blue! I also adore the granulation and liftability. I agree with you in that I am not brand loyal, but pigment loyal. Certain brands do certain pigments better than others. All of my palettes are mixed brands. Thanks so much for all your research. I ALWAYS get excited when you have a new video!
Thank you! This was quite the unusual watercolor to evaluate. I think a lot of artists may appreciate this Manganese Blue Hue, even if they didn't get a chance to try the old PB33. I was just really pleasantly surprised at how close it came to replacing the old version, while being far less toxic as a bonus. After comparing so many pigments from different brands around the world, I'm so glad we are not limited to just one company. I really appreciate how different products made with the same "ingredient" can be. Sometimes we get lucky too and multiple brands do a particular color well... Then I may just have to collect them all (it's no longer called "hoarding" if I put them all to use right?). :)
I read on your website about Manganese Blue Hue. It looks like a interesting color but because Daniel Smith is so expensive here in Germany it will land on my lower-priority-wishlist for a while lol. I'm also pro Patchwork-Palette, mine is basically Split Primary, a Raw Sienna and Burnt Umber and after that a bunch of interesting or unique colors from different brand's.
I absolutely LOVE all your videos! Ive seen every single video youve posted multiple times! When I go to TH-cam and have no idea to watch I often time just start with one of your videos which I, most of the time, pick out at random. Thank you for posting such wonderful, info packed and entertaining videos. I know making and then editing videos is incredibly time consuming and difficult so I appreciate all the sacrifices and time spent providing us with free content. Thank you. Much much love ❤ 😍 💖
Aww thank you so much, your comment made my day! I'm so glad you enjoy my videos and have taken the time to leave me such kind words. Happy painting :D
very informative, this is like csi for paints. presumably the fluorescence has an effect on how the paint looks out of the tube / and when painting, which could be why it is your preferred choice over the options from other brands. but - as you demonstrate - that 'effect' will be gone after approx one year, so the b15 will be back to looking the same as the b15 in the other manganese blue hues. i wonder why ds didn't label the fluorescence. not great on the back of the primatek situation.
I probably didn't clarify that the beauty of the Daniel Smith version has more to do with overall similar paint performance to Old Holland's PB33, rather than just color. This especially included granulation texture, but also transparency and unusually easy lifting. I have several other paints that share a close visible vibrant blue color in normal light, like any PB15 diluted. Winsor & Newton and Turner have versions that are also a beautiful bright sky blue (I didn't cover Turner in the video, as I hate the way their paints flow, but it's a nearly identical vibrancy) but where they fail in comparison primarily has to do with texture and lifting. DaVinci was notably darker and less vibrant than fully PB15 hues from W&N, Turner, Holbein or DS. I have a feeling the DS fluorescent additive was not simply a choice for brightening, but also a way to dilute the PB15 to a lighter color without adding the opacity of a white filler as a tint. I can't rule out that it's also a lift aid and perhaps helps increase texture (or if it's the specifically coarser nature of the particles) but this is the main difference between them and all of the competition. The main properties that make DS MBH the most convincing are put in place during the painting process, which do remain even after a year in the sun. I should also clarify that any phthalo blue has a very minor dull shift after a year or more in the sun, falling well within the shifts expected of an LFII rated paint. Probably good to keep in mind that even if LFII colors have a barely notable dulling in a whole year of FL direct sunlight, it would likely take decades to note it in normal indoor lighting conditions. In the end it appears that the fluorescent additive changed very little in regards to visible color hue when compared to the normal subtle dulling of PB15. I hope that helps clear up what I meant about liking this version's performance vs other brands :)
I was mixing a lunar blue dupe last night. I don’t have the manganese so I used regular phthalo and pbk11 from Roman szmal due to its heavy granulation. The resulting colour was very close. I was putting together a travel palette and deciding which colours to include. I found that many of the Daniel smith convenient mixes and some primateks were pretty easy to approximate so the only DS colour that made the cut was quin burnt sienna.
You're Awesome! I'm new to the craft and all in for the journey, just looking to find my niche /specialty skill. Good on you for putting out important and helpful information. Just from a beginner's standpoint, I'm trying to keep things basic with supplies and avoiding mistakes, which number more than the total colors of available paints. lol
I love this kind of content, your information is so helpful and I really appreciate the resoures on your channel and on your website, especially the lightfastness tests! Ever since the Daniel Smith controversy started up, I've been mixing replicas with my own relatively small watercolour collection. Your Green Apatite video was very inspiring :) I wasn't surprised regarding the content of the Primateks, but I wish the CEO's response had been more informative and less defensive. Most of my paints are DS because in my city in Western Canada, they're actually pretty affordable (comparatively). I can't speak for all artists, but I think we'll still buy the paints if we know what's in them! But I imagine they rely on mystical verbiage to sell the Primateks at the higher price point. :/ For my Primatek dupes, I just used copious amounts of Lunar Black and the only granulating brown I own that I like, Mummy Bauxite (itself a Primatek), to mix most of them. (My Burnt Sienna & Burnt Umber from QoR were a mistake sadly. They don't mix nicely.) I don't know that I got the mixes very accurate, but it was also a great way to try out mixes I never would have ordinarily tried. Your last video got me wanting a brown with more distinctive granulation so I'll have to put that and Manganese Blue Hue on my wishlist. I love these deep dives into pigment properties, because it's absolutely a help when you're trying to build a versatile palette on a budget. Thank you so much!
Thank you, I appreciate your kind and thoughtful comment! Lunar Black and Mummy Bauxite will definitely result in a lot of cool mixtures with your other colors. Despite all the controversy, I definitely still appreciate Daniel Smith paints. I'll still buy the ones that are so helpful for mixing, while being more reasonably priced than the primatek colors. Manganese Blue Hue and Lunar Earth are such nice additions to a limited palette for versatility. I do wish they would be more open about their ingredients, but I have a feeling that they view "extra" ingredients in their formulas as "trade secrets" to be hush hush about. Honestly though, if people like me doing lightfast testing, or the geologist doing microscope work, can figure out some of the ingredients - then competitors surely could too. Maybe they can work on a balance of properly labeling things while still keeping their mystical verbiage to better balance keeping us all happy :)
Thank you for this video! I am an art supply hoarder as well. I have so many different brands and so much paint! I like that you used a black light, I think it's very useful to know what is in your paint, that is why I am learning how to make my own. Just because we prefer a brand we should never assume that they are going to hit it out of the park with all their products. Although I did find the response from DS a little condescending, I still love their paints. They just need to be truthful. Nothing wrong with saying that we have to do it X so that we can have consistency from batch to batch. If people know how paint is made then they would have a better understanding of the controversy. I hope that you will not be attacked by people who are uneducated in printmaking. I love your videos please make more!
Thank you! I've overall been getting a decent balance between those who just like the information, to those who don't understand why anyone is surprised or mad at Daniel Smith... to those who are pretty upset and think it's wrong of anyone to ever buy DS paints again. I feel like putting what I've learned out there, while helping point out that some of these are unique materials that help artists create things that might not be possible otherwise, is more valuable than picking sides in this debate. I'll do my best to keep making these kinds of videos promoting informed freedom of choice :)
This is really interesting, and I appreciate all the hard work you do. The alternatives and mixes give everyone a chance to try new things while remaining neutral. As for this color, I've been avoiding it all along because I thought it was just a mix of Phthalo Blue GS and white, which does not interest me. (I think I may have ended up with a tube from another brand that was.) So, this was enlightening and made me want to try it, especially for mixes. Since the florescence doesn't affect the hue's lightfastness, I'd be ok with using it for finished pieces. As for the ordeal, I think everyone should just decide for themselves. I've been a big fan of DS paint, and have more tubes than anyone really needs, but the response was less than stellar. Most knew that the Primateks were doctored, but it was that "bad" handling (and lack of clarity) that set people off. Unfortunately, many people are naíve to think that any of these other companies aren't hiding things, too. One just got caught. Personally, I will continue to use what I've got, and maybe add a tube or two to mix my own Primatek versions once they run out. However, there are some pigments they just do best. I'm into several brands, so loyalty isn't an issue, and Roman Szmal has become a new favorite. But, I'm also curious to see how or if they clear this up, since I can't imagine it not hurting their sales a bit. Hopefully, some clarity will come. There's no need to artists to take out their frustrations on each other. Buy or don't buy.
I avoided this color for years assuming the same thing. I've always wondered if there were undisclosed white pigments added to some of the other brands of manganese blue hue. I think the optical brightener was a way for them to lighten this phthalo blue without making it opaque. Agreed, overall I feel like the best thing we can all do is just be honest and share what we learn, let everyone make their own choices. Thanks for your thoughtful comment! Happy painting :)
Ha! It certainly felt that way :) I had struggled with mixing a realistic lunar blue with normal phthalo blue, but when I saw the fluorescent property it basically told me that it was manganese blue hue they used instead of a normal phthalo blue. Sometimes paying attention to the weird stuff solves the mystery of "how did they mix that?"!
this is really informative! Who would know there is flourescent dye in this paint?! Your mixing result indeed looks very close to Blue Appatite. It shows that Lunar Black is quite mighty in creating special effect colors :)
I love your videos. They show sensible knowledge based on your own research and experimentation. They are a source of excellent and credible information, and the examples and final artwork are always stunning. It’s clear you put a lot of thought and effort in your work. I thank you so very MySpace because it has helped me get to know colours and their properties better, and has provided me with examples of how I can do my own experimentations.👍🏻
When comparing my tablet to my swatch card the tablet is reading closer to cobalt blue..interesting. now to figure out how to adjust mixes etc in my mind.
Thank you for a great video. I had and cherished a Windsor & Newton manganese blue. The DS is just not close enough, if you ever find a better substitute, please let us know.
It's been such a hard paint to replace, it's sad. While I value Winsor and Newton's new MBH for it's nice convenient sky color, it has little to no granulation and I'm kinda surprised that's what they put out in comparison to their old genuine PB33!
That was a really excellent point, about pigment chemicals being mixed in the stones themselves. I hadn't heard that anywhere else, and i think it's a very valid point. On the one hand i "fell" for the romance of painting with the actual gemstone/etc, and felt kind of ripped off - they're SO expensive. On the other hand, they are still some of my favorite colors. That's why this series of yours is so valuable - knowing how to mix the comparable color for a fraction of the cost (and you DO get as close as I've ever seen). So i probably won't be buying much of the Primatek line in the future overall, there may be one or two "convenience" colors I'll stick with. Another really informative and in-depth review. Really excellent. Thanks!
Beautiful painting and great coverage/testing of the paint! I love your channel for your honesty and grounded-ness 💕 I have the same thoughts on Daniel Smith, I wasn’t surprised even a little and still I would like to have more info disclosed by brands. Like someone said above, I’d prefer to see this in our foods first. (If I’m having to choose one over the other ) Thanks for another great video full of information !
I've been on the fence about DS Manganese Blue Hue for a while but you've knocked me over to the buy side. Have you tried Da Vinci's Manganese Blue Mixture? It has the original PB33 along with a Phthalo Blue pigment.
This DS version is quite fun! Yes I tried DV, you can see the DaVinci version at 2:14 - I was not happy with it. It seems like they used a really finely particle or tiny amount of PB33, because it doesn't really granulate and the color seemed too dark and dull to be a good replacement for what we used to be able to buy.
@@KimberlyCrick i had this same question, as i have just bought the DaVi MBMixture. your DaVi swatch does look much darker than the one i did yesterday (i also have the ds MBH for comparison), so i wonder - did you find the DaVi dulls/darkens over time? at the moment i would say the DaVi is a very few degrees towards green compared to the DS. i was pleased that both paints lift the same, which means the DaVi B15 has been treated in a similar way to the DS... as you say, coarser particles. Also pleased that the DaVi has no fluorescence - thanks also for investigating and demonstrating this.
@@davejohnson5365 I haven't seen the final lightfast test results for DaVinci yet, but similarly to other PB15 or PB33 paints I don't expect any noteworthy fading. Phthalo Blue does have a tendency to dull over time, though this is not very remarkable and takes a really long time. As an LFII color only long term direct sunlight tests should result in a minor loss of vibrancy, but no fading or lightening. I did notice that DaVinci seems to use a darker shade of Phthalo Blue, or a different source of Manganese Blue than Old Holland's paint used to use, so the formula overall seems less comparable to what I was used to. It's definitely possible that DV's already deeper value might result in less visible dulling after a lightfast test.
It would be interesting to see these colors compared to the Schmincke supergranulating paints. They do have a few colors in their range where PBk11 is mixed with blue pigments. Does someone have both?
I am sympathetic to the fact that not everyone is science/geology savvy(I'm by no means an expert and only took 2 college-level geology classes before I decided to pursue equine instead), but it was a big ol' duh moment for me. It's absurd(for me, I'm having trouble articulating my thoughts at the moment due to only having about 3ft of visibility in this brain fog) to think that they are solely grinding up high-quality precious stones and shoving them in tubes. With that being said, I do think the lack of transparency is punishable by disappointment and distrust for those who care about it. Especially when it comes to a company that promotes itself as trying to be more environmentally conscious. The brand loyalty and hype thing never seem to work out well. Funnily enough, I do have a loyalty to DS Manganese Blue Hue. I love it. It would take a lot to pull it from my cold dead hands. I've been watching through your videos recently, for some reason you don't pop up much on my feed and my ADHD brain forgets anything I cannot see in front of my face. I think I could listen to you read entire technical textbooks and I'd still thoroughly enjoy every second of it. Thank you for your knowledge, your calm voice, and for existing in general. You and Oto have been a HUGE help to me when it comes to picking paint. I can't remember the last time I didn't consult your content when considering purchases.
I'm so glad to hear that, thank you for your thoughtful comment. Sometimes it feels like I'm reading technical textbooks when I go over these speeches about pigment properties lol. I'm happy to hear it's still enjoyable even if I go pretty thorough and in-depth when talking about paint. I'm with you about Manganese Blue Hue - I really appreciate having it on my palette. Regardless of the Primatek mineral controversy, I'll definitely still be using this color! Happy painting :)
Hi.. I have learned so much already from watching your videos and visiting your site. I have already revamped my selection of colours and am amazed at the variety of colours I can create now. I do have a couple of little questions though. I have an old Van Gogh palette with a green #366. However, when I visit their site there is no colour that corresponds with this green. I also have from the same set a viridian and when I blend the #366 with a pthalo blue ( blue shade) I can approximate the viridian quite well. But that leaves me not knowing what this #366 really is. Do you have any idea what this bright blue leaning apple green might be? I was also hoping to know if you recommend any particular optical brighteners to add to paints if you want a fluo effect, even if it's not in DS Mag Blue hue. I bought the WN pan version and love the colour. It's clear and delicious and you're right, it really makes a wonderful sky blue that doesn't feel as heavy as the cerluean. Unfortunately, in my local art shop, they didn't have French Ultramarine blue by Schminke...just the super fine one. Alas, rural France is also a challenge for getting Da Vinci colours and I've yet to find White Nights here either. Still Sennelier, Rembrandt, WN, Van Gogh and such are all wonderful....Ps, Do you have a video on brush recommendations?just curious. Thank you so much for what you do.
Your #366 sounds like it accidentally got the wrong label or code printed, as 366 appears to be quin rose pv19. Luckily all of van goghs greens, even "viridian", are made from PG7 phthalo * green. If it's a yellowish green it's likely also got a touch of PY154 in it, more towards blue probably just PG7. I would assume it's the green the color most resembles in their catalog not taking the code number into consideration. They should mark Viridian as "hue" because it's meant to look like PG18 the true viridian pigment with granulation. I use princeton neptune for holding water/big wet washes and princeton heritage for detail/fine point. I have tried some cheaper brush sets which make an appearance once in a while in my videos, but I think I'll do an overall brush spotlight in the future. I think invisible ink would be the best route for just adding uv black light effects to things, I'm working on a list just covering the neon/fluorescent/optical brightener options at www.kimcrick.com/pages/neon-fluorescent-uv-blacklight-glow-paints-fugitive-and-rare-lightfast-watercolors
@@KimberlyCrick Thanks so much for your quick and thoughtful response. I suspect that the colour is actually #662 Premanent Green because it's definitely not a yellow leaning shade and it's not a Hooker's green. I looked at a number of other pan sets and they usually include a 622 as well as the viridian, both of which were in my pan set. Given that I bought it years ago and never made a swatch sheet, I can't be certain but that's what I think it is. A lovely rich colour that I will continue using and with PY150 it makes an amazing lime green. I'm having way too much fun now! Will check out the optical brightener options as my sacred geometry paintings with the finetec colours would be amazing in black light! Ok and my local art supply store hasNeptune brushes but a #6 is 24 euros so definitely a birthday present wish list item. Brushes really are a challenge too because I've been buying cheap options and am never happy with them. They never keep a point, don't hold much water, don't have much spring, and frankly, I'm tired of putting money into crap brushes that don't do what I want. So, yes, a brush video would be super helpful. Thanks again and be well.
Do you know of any other watercolors that glow like this (besides opera pink). I'm loving how I can paint something that under regular light look like a "normal" painting but when you shine a uv light on it "SURPRISE" it glows. Thank you for all your work....I would have never guessed I had a color on my pallet that glows like this otherwise. Now I check every color just in case. 🤣
In general all granulating colors (textural pigments) will separate from any non-granulating colors (smooth, fine particle pigments) in wet washes. Nearly all Phthalo Blues (other than this very unusual Manganese Blue Hue from D.Smith) will be smooth and flow away from textural colors like lunar black pbk11, lunar earth pbr11, ultra blue pb29, cobalts etc. This particular version of phthalo acts as the granulating part of the color separating mixture (instead of the smooth flowy part like nearly any other brand of phthalo blue would). You will get some effect by mixing two granulating colors together, but the most drastic color separation happens when mixing one of each type. Happy painting :)
I just bought some blue cobalts (M Graham, because _why not,_ I don't have any of that brand, and online swatches got overwhelming), and just now saw that Insta geologist has Sleeping Beauty as mostly PB28 with some earth minerals for the naturally-occuring dirt. (I mean granulation; lunar black?) I feel so stupid for not knowing I had more cobalts on hand already! 😂 Wonder if I have some surprise cadmiums on hand?
Hi Kim, I'm curious if there is one particular DS set that you're super happy with or even just a couple of additional colours from DS that you would recommend for someone with an already pretty good set of professional paints.I followed your advice on your top recommended pigments and have put together a pretty complete pallete of basic pigments. I am just curious about DS and thought, hmmm, maybe I should just get the primary mixing trio? I do know that I'm still missing a good viridian and a good granulating French Ultramarine so maybe I should start there?
Because there are such lovely, more affordable, regular colors available from brands like DaVinci or White Nights I don't really recommend collecting DS sets. If you're really curious though, their mini tube "essentials" mixing set is usually only about $20-30 on Amazon and you get a variety of 6 primaries. I do love Daniel Smith's Lunar Earth, Lunar Black, Cobalt Teal and MBH though because they are very unique. For the best granulating French Ultramarine I'd go with Schmincke. For Viridian - M.Graham. You'll get the most texture and color separating effects with these.
@@KimberlyCrick Lovely, thanks so much! I already have those two and the six tubes essentials in my basket through amazon France so I'm right on track. Now I just need some decent paper. you're a real belssing. Merci!
At 7:26 , I would say that the right side swatch is noticeably duller and greyer than the left side. Is that something you could tell IRL? Personally, I'm probably not buying any more DS. Some of their Primatek labelling was just straight up false, and the response from the company has been condescending at best. I have plenty of other brands I can support. I don't necessarily need _everything_ listed, but I want at least the major pigments used to be disclosed in the pigment list. That's one of the big supposed differences between "professional" paint brands vs hobby/craft ones, after all. Also the response from the company has been INCREDIBLY bad, and I'm just not here for that.
With the proper PR, this whole thing could have been mitigated and handled with the grace that would not have left the utter distaste and disdain that this whole debacle resulted in. A small "Yeah, we sometimes have to fudge the color for constancy, lemme explain the process so you all know what's up" would have gone such a long way. What they went with instead was just a Titanic response in so many ways....
Manganese Blue Hue is LFII, which results in minor, nearly imperceptible dulling or hue shifts. I was a bit more concerned with the LFI cerulean graying above it and the drastic fading in Mayan Blue also noted as LFII. Only LFI colors should remain completely unchanged in long term tests. I just looked at my masstone and diluted lightfast strips and at 6 months there is no visible fading in MBH even when diluted with at least 50% water, so that's very good. Absolutely understand the feelings about Daniel Smith at the moment. I would 100% be on board with forcing them to list ingredients (even it was vague to protect trade secrets, such as labeling this "fluorescent" like opera pink does though it doesn't tell us the type of dye or brightener chemically. When emailing about a dozen different paint manufacturers for clarity about what the fluorescent ingredients were actually made of I got a lot of brush offs "that's proprietary" they'd say. There were only two companies that were really open and honest about their ingredients: Kremer Pigments and Golden/Qor. Golden even put me in touch with their lab director and we had a great chat about chemicals, so I really love them for that :)
I'd been suspicious of the primateks before this came out. Their Lapis doesn't have the payoff, or (frankly) even any resemblance, to what real lapis looks like many hundreds of years later in extant medieval manuscripts. And it is sold as one of their MOST expensive pigments! 🙄 Pretty glad to hear of this news "breaking" although, to be honest, I am also a bit surprised by how strongly people are reacting to the "news." We've found fluorescence etc in stuff that wasn't labeled thusly before (I have deplored that as well), so I don't get why SUDDENLY everyone is shocked. I hope the backlash leads to real change in the paint industry. Artists are buying artist-grade cause we want to know what we're working with. If I want mystery paint there's plenty out there. By the time I'm spending $10-$30 a tube, I wanna know what binder, what pigments, what dyes, what the Real lightfastness rating of THE PRODUCT is (NOT THE BEST POSSIBLE RATING OF THE MOST LIGHT FAST INGREDIENT, as tested 20 years ago on a specific alternate pigment source no company can actually source anymore because that specific mine ran out, etc). Binders, chemical reactions, location the natural material was sourced, etc,. can all affect stuff. My fine art is not the place for experiments, unless I am making a conscious choice TO experiment, and then I want to know the variables.
I understand that sentiment - my art is not the place for experiments... and it's a darn shame that I'm forced to do so much fact checking, lightfast tests and ingredient investigations to get to the bottom of what's included in our expensive paints. That being said, almost every brand does something a little questionable, particularly about lacking details on extra ingredients if they are not a pigment. I email a lot of companies and many will tell you additional ingredients and what specifically they are made of is a trade secret/proprietary. I am a little surprised at the amount of both strong and weak reactions from people about this news. It's very scary as a content creator trying to be informative, but not upset either spectrum of viewer. Sadly I expect some drama to be aimed my way in a blame the messanger sort of way :/
@@annedavis3340 Info and images about the issue of Primatek mineral paints not seeming to be made of what they imply can be found on instagram under "world pigment day" at instagram.com/p/CN4TTo-FbiT/ and if you're curious about the person behind this polarized microscopy analysis, the geologist who specializes in pigment studies can be looked into by googling "Ruth Siddall UCL". I'm unsure if she's posted the images on other websites.
Honestly the lapis is one I could see as actually being the genuine stone - it's dull, greyish colour is what the very cheapest, lowest grade lapis would produce. The really nice, vivid paints use the exponentially more expensive higher grade stones. Wallace Seymour sells a few different grades of lapis, the most vibrant one is £90 for 5 ml. The DS lapis looks more like the lowest grade versions.
@@FaerieDust There are definitely a huge variety of "grades" in lapis, the most expensive being much more blue and the cheapest stones having a lot of impurities are nearly gray. I noticed that Roman Szmal's version is even weaker than DS, so it appears they use an even cheaper pigment source.
I'm not a fan of the inclusion of the optical brightener and the fact that they still labeled it LFII is just another nail in the coffin for me. It's intriguing that they managed to make the PB15 non staining and heavily granulating though. I'll see if this one is on my DS dot chart, it might be fun to play around with. I would never have paid attention to this color because early in my watercolor journey I accidentally bought manganese blue hue by Mission Gold and Van Gogh (if I recall correctly) and both were just regular PB15 and fillers or maybe even white. A complete waste of money.
Technically this color is accurately labeled LFII, as the visible color does not fade any worse than any LFII rated Phthalo Blue. The temporary fluorescent effect seen in MBH, Lunar Blue and Blue Apatite should be labeled as + Fluorescent though. Perhaps "+ temporary fluorescence" to clarify that's always a fugitive bonus effect. Unlike fluorescent colorful dyes (like the bright pink rhodamine in opera pink) the clear optical brightener doesn't have the same dramatic change on color, but definitely helps the lifting, texture and diluting of the PB15 to a lighter brighter blue without the addition of white pigments you may have seen in other MBH. Opera is properly labeled as + fluor, also being fugitive in rating because it's visible hue fades dramatically to an LFIV equivalent over time. We've technically never made paint manufacturers include labels for optical brighteners or dyes, only pigments, so really this is more of a call to action to properly disclose added fluorescence - colorless optical brighteners or colorful dyes alike.
I really wish Golden had just come out with a normal watercolor line. They seem to be one of the most open and trustworthy but their Qor's just aren't suitable for my style of painting. In the meantime I've invested in some M. Graham.
You and me both, I would buy Golden's normal watercolors in a second if they weren't made so high-flow as Qor's Aquazol binder. I love Golden's company ethics and would rather support them, but their paints don't mix well with my other ones and I don't get the results I expect in wet washes.
I like QOR because it tends to push other paints around in wet washes, but I can't get that effect with just QOR. I would be all for having a more traditional line of Golden watercolors too, but I don't know how practical that would be for them.
Love your take on the primatek “controversy” If you believe marketing from manufacturers, you will be deceived. These paints are expensive. If you like them and can afford them, use them. If you think “natural” materials are somehow simpler than synthetics, you could not be more wrong. If you’re buying pretty paint from DS, they will deliver. If you want to buy a story, join a religious cult
Very interesting video! If you want to replicate gemstone paints, the solution is to buy said gemstones and grind them in a mortar and pestle, then mix with binder. Daniel Smith Primatek colors are NOT genuine. The bonus? You get much better colors and you know exactly what is in them.
The more I learn about Daniel Smith the less I like their business practices. It is disturbing and disappointing. I don't care if they list everything, but if most of the pigment is synthetic or if you use optical brightners label them as such. Their less than optimal response just screams unprofessional and childish, like a teen getting caught cheating on a test. Anyway, thank you for your testing! Love your data base and your videos! Happy painting
I can understand that feeling, especially when it comes to synthetic replacements in the primatek line. They should have labels that include any extra ingredient codes. I will say in that in the case of dyes and optical brighteners, even pro grade companies have never been required to list them. Even now several companies still label their opera pink as just PR122 (giving magenta a bad name for the fading of just the fluorescent dye additive). I think it was pressure from customers that resulted in +fluorescent being written. I'm glad it's becoming more common to ask for basic ingredient disclosure (though they may have to be vague for trade secrets). I think the thing I'm most upset about though is that such a large company continues to label certain colors lightfast that plainly fade. I'm going to touch on some bad practices in my next video that more than a few companies are guilty of - not caring to test their lightfastness properly or just passing along misinformation from pigment sources instead of making their own correct ratings. I've found multiple colors that fade in all brands yet they all use the lazy ASTM LFI rating that either came from some old test in masstone acrylic or oil or directly from a pigment manufacturer. Schmincke, Rembrandt, White Nights and Roman Szmal all made me pretty mad by selling "lightfast" paint they didn't test... treating our artwork as the place for experimenting with unreliable and not thoroughly tested modern pigments (the worst of which being PR177 and P064).
@@KimberlyCrick look forward to seeing your video about this. So disappointed by Daniel Smith. I always heard that Winsor & Newton was the gold standard for watercolor paint and wishing now I had listened. I have a 50/50 mix of Daniel Smith and W&N. 😕
It wouldn't be so much an issue if Daniel Smith was fair about their pricing and forth coming. They claim/imply the price is high because of the amount of rare minerals they are using in their paint: a straight up lie. This is what people are so hot about. If they said the pricing is what it is, it would be different. We all *know* that art suppliers mark their product up 1000 percent of the cost-to-make, *often even higher*. They justify this by assuming there would be no art without their product. *Well, they are wrong* This is why artist are moving away from art suppliers to handmade paint and product made by artist who make small batches of their paint with care. Also, once one knows how to make paint, *which any artist can do* , freedom occurs and there is no limit to the color hue, tone, spectrum. GOD BLESS.
![All My Blue Colors [Why I Chose Them]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/3tv40hdXf2s/mqdefault.jpg)
Continuing my trend of being excessively informative, this video has more than you probably wanted to know about Manganese Blue Hue. I did touch on the recent Daniel Smith controversy, but please know that anything I share is to help you make the best consumer decisions possible (and NOT for drama, though I am aware some artists are pretty upset with DS right now). No matter what your opinion of DS, I hope that the paint info, lightfast tests and how I achieve replica mixtures will be helpful to you.
I noticed that Manganese Blue Hue and Lunar Black average about $10 per 15ml tube, while Lunar Blue was about $13 and Blue Apatite was about $18 (at the time, on Blick USA). For those wanting to replicate the more expensive Primatek colors, it can often be accomplished using cheaper pigments. Manganese Blue Hue not only replicates the old PB33, but can replace Blue Apatite and Lunar Blue while remaining independently versatile. In last week's video I showed how adding PBr11 can replicate up to 5 different Primatek minerals when combined with common colors likely already on your palette ( th-cam.com/video/_9g43QidSeg/w-d-xo.html ). Once I complete my top recommended pigments list, I expect to be able to replicate a great many popular mixtures, color separating effect paints and minerals like those in the Primatek line, all by using a relatively short list of super useful colors.
Resources - my top favorite pigments list can be found at www.kimcrick.com/pages/top-lightfast-watercolor-pigments
Info about the issue of Primatek mineral paints not seeming to be made of what they imply can be found at instagram.com/p/CN4TTo-FbiT/ and if you're curious about the person behind this polarized microscopy analysis, it was done by a reputable geologist who specializes in pigment studies, you can find more info about her by googling "Ruth Siddall UCL".
Not excessive for me! I love learning all these things!
I gotta say I really prefer when a company discloses what's in their product so I know what I'm buying. It's more important for me in food, but I really want it in general.
I like the DS paints I do have, and I also like my Senneliers even if I have been informed that they use a lot of brighteners (do you know anything about that?)
Loved your art in this one!
It's always such a treat to watch you paint!
@@Finkeldinken Ooh, I didn't know that Sennelier use brighteners too. I'd definitely like more info on that.
I really appreciate your demonstrations on mixing your own versions of other unusual/expensive/fugitive paints. I'd rather do that, especially now that I probably won't buy any more DS.
@@Finkeldinken There is a fluorescent dye, likely rhodamine, in opera pink. Otherwise there are no traditionally defined (fluorescent) optical brighteners or dyes used in Sennelier or Van Gogh. None of the paints glow under black light (and as far as I know all optical brighteners/whiteners are fluorescent, working by refracting blue light UVA spectrum). However, this doesn't mean there isn't a different chalky type additive to help the color stand out better (sometimes seen as a chalky top layer if painting over black paper). It's possible someone mentioned a brightener as it's job description, but not as the right term to indicate these fluorescent additives. I will look into other types of additives and make a video if I figure it all out :)
For those who haven't seen it, Handprint has an article/review on the Primatek line from when it first came out. Just google Handprint Primatek and it'll come up. Since they have changed the line since then, some of it is outdated. He also suggested some of them might have just been lunar black with other pigments, like you showed in last week's video. Bruce basically called this way back when.
So I added my two cents in another place, but I will put it here. My wife is an artist and was excited to get the PrimaTek colors. I am a mineralogist and knew that something was off, but she was happy and the colors are really nice, plus you can get some good textures. Anyhow, one day I took a couple of her paints into the lab to perform some elemental and phase analyses on them. Low and behold, they were far from pure minerals in a gum arabic base. It is important to note that 90% of minerals powder up white, even quartz (amethyst), when ground will look white. Also, most mineral sources mined have ancillary minerals with them that get ground up along the way, thus you will rarely ever have a pure single mineral pigment. I emailed DS and asked about the data I collected and never heard back. I really like the idea of returning to the use of base minerals for pigments. The colors are really nice and technically those minerals are there...just in very small quantities.
Yes, Daniel Smith definitely has a tendency to mislead regarding the idea of a color being solely that single type of crushed up rock. I too have sent them questions regarding misleading paint properties and been ignored. I am not surprised about the questionable content, but I have been quite surprised at how many people are convinced that you simply can't replicate the look of these paints. It is quite fun to remake their mixtures for yourself. As a bonus we can save a bit of money buying less costly ingredients to recreate these fake "genuine" paints too. Thanks for stopping by!
You are remarkable, Kimberly. I'd have never thought to look at this color with a black light, and that's the issue I take concern with in this whole DS discussion. As you've stated, you and other informed content creators and scientists are doing so much work that should be openly available from the companies who sell and market these paints.
Transparency is key so that consumers can make informed buying decisions. If multiple pigments or fluorescents aren't labeled (or are labeled inconsistently), that takes away consumer choice. Since opera rose is labeled as fluorescent, one would assume that colors not marked in this way do not contain it. Likewise, multipigment paints list their various pigments, so if phthalo green is added to a primatek for consistency, I'd want to know that. I'd still buy colors I like... However, when a company then doubles down and treats their customers like they have no idea what they're talking about.... it's all just really disheartening.
Thank you for all of your dedication to this effort!
Thank you, I really debated if I should make this kind of video. It's a bit stressful knowing this topic upsets people and sometimes that frustration gets aimed at the messengers. I hope that the community pressure on companies will result in better products and practices in the future. This whole controversy has been a bit disheartening, everything from Daniel Smith's response to the drama as well as fierce disagreements to insults between fellow artists. With the past year we've all had in world events, I dislike seeing negative things disrupt the peacefulness of making art. It's difficult to stay neutral, point out things like hidden ingredients or quirky lightfastness, while feeling free to admit that this color is still beautiful and useful to have.
While I'd really love to know exactly what's in this paint, I don't expect a very specific chemical description or dye code for the fluorescent additive in MBH, it's likely a trade secret. Even if it's an optical brightener and not a dye/type of colorant they would normally list, I would have appreciated seeing "fluorescent" written on the label. I was at least relieved to see that this seems to be a colorless additive which didn't ruin the lightfastness of the underlying PB15. Because MBH, Lunar Blue and Blue Apatite are all lightfast, I honestly didn't think to black light test them for a very long time. There's one thing I'm still realllllyyy curious about though... I wonder if Ruth Siddall would be willing to verify if this glow is the same ingredient seen in Blue Apatite under a microscope...or if Blue Apatite's glow is truly from fluorite/natural...
Denise! I've already been wondering how you feel about the recent developments regarding Daniel Smith. I completely agree with what you said, transparency is the number ONE rule when it comes to artist-grade paints, and the fact that Daniel Smith not only disregarded that but also disregarded customers who brought up the issue with them is almost unbelievable.
About lightfastness - I'll be going over the masstone and diluted lightfast test results for the entire Daniel Smith catalog in the future. For now it's mainly the mayan colors, slickerite, rhodonite, moonglow and shadow violet showing unexpected fading, as well as the ones we all know are bad like opera, prussian, aureolin, alizarin and anthra red that are real problems. Manganese Blue Hue is rated LFII, which results in minor, nearly imperceptible dulling or hue shifts in normal visible light. The black light refracting of blue light is fugitive, but most artists would never know this happened (even though I think that we should know, the colorless additive doesn't drastically change the base appearance). On this particular lightfast strip I was a bit more concerned with the LFI cerulean graying above it and the drastic fading in Mayan Blue also noted as LFII. Only LFI colors should remain completely unchanged in long term tests. ***I just looked at my masstone and diluted lightfast strips and at 6 months there is no visible fading in MBH even when diluted with at least 50% water, so that's very good.***
Absolutely understand the feelings about Daniel Smith at the moment, but I also know that certain colors they make are valuable to artists. I'm doing my best to recreate any of the colors that are outrageously expensive, and generally replicate mixtures so that people can make their own decision if they'd like to try mimicry with other brands. I would 100% be on board with forcing them to list ingredients (even it was vague to protect trade secrets, such as labeling this "fluorescent" like opera pink does though it doesn't tell us the type of dye or brightener chemically. When emailing about a dozen different paint manufacturers for clarity about what the fluorescent ingredients were actually made of I got a lot of brush offs "that's proprietary" they'd say. There were only two companies that were really open and honest about their ingredients: Kremer Pigments and Golden/Qor. Golden even put me in touch with their lab director and we had a great chat about chemicals, so I really love them for that :)
I've been sad to find a lot of lies about lightfastness throughout many big brands due to negligence of proper testing or just going off what the pigment manufacturer told them (even Schmincke and Roman Szmal are guilty of this). Winsor and Newton offers a cadmium free orange made from a fugitive red-yellow mix which doesn't even offer pigment codes ("trade secret") yet labels it LFI. So sad all around that I feel the need to do so much investigative work on behalf of giant companies that don't pay me!
A lot of people are reluctant to buy QoR paints due to their price, but I think their openness about their products should be factored in to the price. I really like their products, and will buy more because of their transparency. (Watercolor joke intended. :P)
@@sosumi_rogue Lol thank you for the chuckle :D They make good products, but they are hard for me to use because of my tendency to want precision. If QoR didn't act so uncontrollably high flow in wet washes from the aquazol binder I would use them more often. If Golden made a normal watercolor line (which should be more affordable since they supposedly can't put as much pigment in normal gum arabic formulas) I would buy it immediately! I absolutely have nothing but high praise for their customer support and amazing willingness to chat with me about paint ingredients. They are probably the most wonderful company regarding lightfast testing too. I'm so impressed with their Just Paint blog. Check out all the tests they run!!! justpaint.org/lightfastness-testing-at-golden-artist-colors/
The level of time and preparation and research you put into these videos is mind-boggling. With your lightfast testing included, these videos are YEARS in the making! 😂😳 Truly you give so much to the art community! Thank you, as always, for the information and lovely art.
I just dabble in watercolor for therapy, but I love working with pro paint because the pigmentation is so rewarding even with my blobby messes. I gravitated to Daniel Smith because they provided a straight-forward essentials set and I thought it made more sense to buy than to risk the frustration of muddy mixes as I was starting out. And then, since DS is local to me it's relatively easy to find deals on additions to my essentials. I've grown my set of tiny DS tubes way too large, and it's actually a management problem. I branched out into Winsor Newton for one tube, and I like them too! Anyway, I am not one to take a side. Coke and Pepsi are both fine. Canon and Nikon make all levels of cameras and are awesome. I've owned both Fords and Chevy's and loved them both. And I have a degree from each of the two main rival schools in my state of Washington, so I win no matter which team takes the Apple Cup. As you can see I'm a pure centrist, but I mostly only have pro-grade paint experience with DS. Do you think other pro-level paint companies have slightly disappointing secrets too? It seems to me that DS is especially picked on, but maybe Windsor Newton, Holbein, etc. has some trickster mixes too? I'm just asking the question because I'm curious. Just as with everything else I've mentioned, I have no skin in this game.
The problem with Daniel Smith compared to other brands is they have far more unusual specialty colors than any other brand. You won't run into this issue, or the additional undisclosed pigments in the mineral/primateks, with most other brands because other brands don't even offer them. A lot of people got upset with DS because the special colors weren't labeled as clearly as the rest of their line and many people made their purchases based on the incomplete ingredient list or an incorrect lightfast rating that wasn't fully tested. That being said, they make beautiful paints and a lot of people buy them just for the pretty color so I can see some folks not being bothered by it at all :)
You’re such a clever woman. Using UV light! Definitely the best watercolour paint reviewer and explainerer on TH-cam.
I’m glad someone else also found this out! I noticed it maybe around one year ago, when I had painted a bird and used this color in it, and left it in my kitchen wall to dry out. We have a “mosquito lamp” on at nights in the kitchen, that has that blue light, and in the night when I went to get water, I saw that my bird painting was glowing in dark 😂 I figured that either it has fluorescent or bright white mixed in, but it was so glowy that I figured it might be the first option…
That is such an interesting way to have accidentally found out about this color's properties. I was really happy to see that despite that glow, it's still very lightfast as a blue. Unlike some fugitive fluorescent dye additives it seems to be a colorless optical brightener like those in bleach/detergent products. That must have looked so surprisingly bright on your bird! I think the unique glow will be a fun thing for some artists to purposefully play with. Happy painting :)
I love this story 😂 I just imagine what it would be like to go up in the middle of the night and suddenly realise that your painting glows in the dark 😆
I work with gem stones and semi-precious gem stones and I know that there is more variety than uniformity in colours and tones. I was not surprised to find out they had to add pigments to get consistent colours. And like you I would prefer to have all of the ingredients listed, but it ultimately doesn't change my mind about Daniel Smith, and I never did buy more than one of two tubes of the Primatek line and I never regretted those, really. It's great to be able to mix your own.
So interesting. In never got the cult like following of DS paint and the marketing was always suspect.
It is still fantastic paint.
Honestly I feel like it's really scary right now to share our opinions as content creators, even if we try to stick to the facts and not be angry / remain as unbiased as possible... Some people seem cult level brand loyalist, while others are ready to bring real anger to the conversation. Either way, I just want people to be better informed, because it really sucks how much unpaid research and lightfast testing I do on behalf of these companies :(
No kidding, if you look at their post on the FB page there's so many responses that are truly cult-like, saying "I can't believe you even had to make this statement" and expressing their concern that DS's feelings are hurt. Nobody asked who was this person, what was "the statement" or what the issue was! Also I think DS was deleting critical comments, although, they did leave mine up.
@@KimberlyCrick PS You are doing great work, and I appreciate it. I've been using your site regularly. DS supposedly tests their own paints for lightfastness, although I have been wondering if those tests are conducted with natural light in Seattle, which might explain why they rate their Anthraquinoid Red "excellent."
@@jennw6809 Yes, definitely weaker sun in northern climates matters, but just how diluted they test their colors is going to make the most difference. Even in sunny FL PR177 can be nearly stable if used in a thick full strength masstone. It's only when it's diluted with at least 50% water does it start to show signs of the terrible fading like we see evidence of in Moonglow. I would love to know what ratios of diluted/tints they test!
Wow, turning on the UV light at 3:08 was sooo cool! This is exactly why I love your videos and channel. Your honesty and informative content is always appreciated. It's great to see how we can mix some look-a-likes for Blue Apatite and Lunar Blue. Regarding the drama, I completely share your opinion. No one should have been surprised that there are additives to the products... Have you seen all the garbage that goes into our food? Should DS have disclosed the ingredients? Yeah probably, but no company is perfect. Their marketing choices don't suddenly change the fact that they do some colors well. I like how you put it, "Collect pigments, not brands". I'm going to have to check out that M Graham Viridian you mentioned! As always, great video and gorgeous artwork. Thanks for sharing!
the way my jaw dropped when you pulled out the black light. Wild
For science enthusiasts: **Refract vs fluoresce?** Whoops! I likely misspoke in the video at 3:40 regarding what visually appears similar to light being reflected (a glow effect) from the optical brightener. The molecules may get excited under UV (black light), fluoresce (emit blue light) and be considered "fluorescing" instead of "refracting". Refract is a term for light changing direction, usually as it passes through something else. Perhaps the paint and I both got excited (lol), but the thought behind "refraction" here has to do with the resin particles involved (often used in the making of fluorescent pigment powders). I asked one of the manufacturers of this type of UV effect paint about what was causing the glow. I was told that "the resin itself is refracting UV-A light". Kremer says the resin (either functioning as an optical brightener itself, or a binder for it) is hardened/dried, then pulverized into a powder like tiny clear crystals to be used in paint. Happy painting everyone :)
Yay!! I love these videos where you show us how to mix hues that resemble the ds colors :) thank you for these types of videos ❤️
What a beautiful color! I appreciate all the work you do. Having someone who is neutral to do this sort of testing and investigation is so important.
Thank you, I needed to hear that! It's a tough job staying neutral and hoping that the information can be helpful to people of varying opinions. It's been a little stressful with some responses being pretty darn upset with DS and not being open to the value of these kind of unique colors. I struggle a bit when deciding to put this type of video out there, because I realize that as the messenger I may get a bit of backlash. After researching so much about paint ingredients, information like this just seems too valuable to keep all to myself :)
There is no such thing as excessively informative! This was a wonderful video and a wonderful painting, thank you so much for sharing your experimentation with all of us!
I love manganese blue hue and it's on all my palettes. I discovered the glow effect a while ago, when I was checking a student brand I bought for flourescents and then thought to check all my swatches as well. Funnily enough I plan on doing a picture with fish as well lol- I just haven't got around to it yet. MBH is really good for getting that cloudy effect that olives and grapes have- the granulation seems to push through and settle on top of some other colours which can be quite effective. No other paint I've tried does the same.
That is such an interesting use for MBH, I have never thought to use it for that cloudy effect. Thank you for sharing :)
I don’t understand why people “blame the messenger “ as you are just giving them more information, not telling them what they can or can’t buy. They can still make their own decisions about paint purchases. I appreciate your research and sharing of information, although I’m only about to start trying to paint with watercolors.
This was a wonderful encapsulation of information! However, I’ll have to watch it many times to absorb everything! I have made a habit of staying away from paints that say “hue” because I think I’m more of a purist. But you have totally peaked my interest in the effects that can be had by trying something new! Thanks!
You won't be sorry if you give it a try. I've been a huge fan of Manganese Blue Hue since I first tried it 16 or so years ago... it's probably my favorite blue at this point and finds it's way in to nearly every painting.
Another excellent and educational video. I kind of wish I could bring you shopping for watercolours with me!
Hi Kimberley, again a great video. Great in research, great in educating those who watch it and want to learn / know their paints. Also great in staying without prejudices. Keeping that neutral position of the paint researcher and teacher you have somehow become.
I agree (I read all the comments): you are not payed, you are doing the work of companies themselfes (real in-depth lightfastness tests etc.) and get nothing. Maybe for the best. This way you can speak up and you'r allowed to talk free about your findings.
But I agree, it is a big work you're doing. You are one of the few people I refer to when it comes to paint and pigment information, when I want to complete my own little research.
So thank you for all your work. Really, thank you very much. (I hope this is understandable, for English is not my first language)
Thank you, I appreciate that. Yes, you're probably right - I do have complete freedom in choosing my research and can stay as neutral as possible without brand loyalty. I'm free to say things the paint companies won't like without fear of upsetting the boss. I'd probably be considered a bad employee if I was always pointing out problems lol :)
I've had Daniel Smith's manganese blue hue on my palette for a couple years, and I love it as a bright sky blue. It's so fascinating to hear that it's actually fluorescent! Your use of the fluorescence in the final painting was really cool to see, and is definitely a dimension of watercolor that I've never considered before. Thank you so much for sharing!!
So interesting! I am always fascinated by your analysis and will willingly follow you into the deep weeds! LOL! I am very intrigued by this now. I never had any of the Magenese Blue Genuine but LOVE the Hue. After all, it's close to "Carolina" Blue! I also adore the granulation and liftability. I agree with you in that I am not brand loyal, but pigment loyal. Certain brands do certain pigments better than others. All of my palettes are mixed brands. Thanks so much for all your research. I ALWAYS get excited when you have a new video!
Thank you! This was quite the unusual watercolor to evaluate. I think a lot of artists may appreciate this Manganese Blue Hue, even if they didn't get a chance to try the old PB33. I was just really pleasantly surprised at how close it came to replacing the old version, while being far less toxic as a bonus. After comparing so many pigments from different brands around the world, I'm so glad we are not limited to just one company. I really appreciate how different products made with the same "ingredient" can be. Sometimes we get lucky too and multiple brands do a particular color well... Then I may just have to collect them all (it's no longer called "hoarding" if I put them all to use right?). :)
I read on your website about Manganese Blue Hue. It looks like a interesting color but because Daniel Smith is so expensive here in Germany it will land on my lower-priority-wishlist for a while lol.
I'm also pro Patchwork-Palette, mine is basically Split Primary, a Raw Sienna and Burnt Umber and after that a bunch of interesting or unique colors from different brand's.
I absolutely LOVE all your videos! Ive seen every single video youve posted multiple times! When I go to TH-cam and have no idea to watch I often time just start with one of your videos which I, most of the time, pick out at random. Thank you for posting such wonderful, info packed and entertaining videos. I know making and then editing videos is incredibly time consuming and difficult so I appreciate all the sacrifices and time spent providing us with free content. Thank you. Much much love ❤ 😍 💖
Aww thank you so much, your comment made my day! I'm so glad you enjoy my videos and have taken the time to leave me such kind words. Happy painting :D
That looks so cool with the black light!
I've still got a 6ml tube of Old Holland Manganese genuine and it's so precious isn't it! Thanks very much, x
very informative, this is like csi for paints. presumably the fluorescence has an effect on how the paint looks out of the tube / and when painting, which could be why it is your preferred choice over the options from other brands. but - as you demonstrate - that 'effect' will be gone after approx one year, so the b15 will be back to looking the same as the b15 in the other manganese blue hues. i wonder why ds didn't label the fluorescence. not great on the back of the primatek situation.
I probably didn't clarify that the beauty of the Daniel Smith version has more to do with overall similar paint performance to Old Holland's PB33, rather than just color. This especially included granulation texture, but also transparency and unusually easy lifting. I have several other paints that share a close visible vibrant blue color in normal light, like any PB15 diluted. Winsor & Newton and Turner have versions that are also a beautiful bright sky blue (I didn't cover Turner in the video, as I hate the way their paints flow, but it's a nearly identical vibrancy) but where they fail in comparison primarily has to do with texture and lifting. DaVinci was notably darker and less vibrant than fully PB15 hues from W&N, Turner, Holbein or DS. I have a feeling the DS fluorescent additive was not simply a choice for brightening, but also a way to dilute the PB15 to a lighter color without adding the opacity of a white filler as a tint. I can't rule out that it's also a lift aid and perhaps helps increase texture (or if it's the specifically coarser nature of the particles) but this is the main difference between them and all of the competition.
The main properties that make DS MBH the most convincing are put in place during the painting process, which do remain even after a year in the sun. I should also clarify that any phthalo blue has a very minor dull shift after a year or more in the sun, falling well within the shifts expected of an LFII rated paint. Probably good to keep in mind that even if LFII colors have a barely notable dulling in a whole year of FL direct sunlight, it would likely take decades to note it in normal indoor lighting conditions. In the end it appears that the fluorescent additive changed very little in regards to visible color hue when compared to the normal subtle dulling of PB15. I hope that helps clear up what I meant about liking this version's performance vs other brands :)
So happy I found your channel!
I was mixing a lunar blue dupe last night. I don’t have the manganese so I used regular phthalo and pbk11 from Roman szmal due to its heavy granulation. The resulting colour was very close. I was putting together a travel palette and deciding which colours to include. I found that many of the Daniel smith convenient mixes and some primateks were pretty easy to approximate so the only DS colour that made the cut was quin burnt sienna.
You're Awesome! I'm new to the craft and all in for the journey, just looking to find my niche /specialty skill. Good on you for putting out important and helpful information. Just from a beginner's standpoint, I'm trying to keep things basic with supplies and avoiding mistakes, which number more than the total colors of available paints. lol
I love this kind of content, your information is so helpful and I really appreciate the resoures on your channel and on your website, especially the lightfastness tests! Ever since the Daniel Smith controversy started up, I've been mixing replicas with my own relatively small watercolour collection. Your Green Apatite video was very inspiring :) I wasn't surprised regarding the content of the Primateks, but I wish the CEO's response had been more informative and less defensive. Most of my paints are DS because in my city in Western Canada, they're actually pretty affordable (comparatively). I can't speak for all artists, but I think we'll still buy the paints if we know what's in them! But I imagine they rely on mystical verbiage to sell the Primateks at the higher price point. :/
For my Primatek dupes, I just used copious amounts of Lunar Black and the only granulating brown I own that I like, Mummy Bauxite (itself a Primatek), to mix most of them. (My Burnt Sienna & Burnt Umber from QoR were a mistake sadly. They don't mix nicely.) I don't know that I got the mixes very accurate, but it was also a great way to try out mixes I never would have ordinarily tried. Your last video got me wanting a brown with more distinctive granulation so I'll have to put that and Manganese Blue Hue on my wishlist.
I love these deep dives into pigment properties, because it's absolutely a help when you're trying to build a versatile palette on a budget. Thank you so much!
Thank you, I appreciate your kind and thoughtful comment! Lunar Black and Mummy Bauxite will definitely result in a lot of cool mixtures with your other colors. Despite all the controversy, I definitely still appreciate Daniel Smith paints. I'll still buy the ones that are so helpful for mixing, while being more reasonably priced than the primatek colors. Manganese Blue Hue and Lunar Earth are such nice additions to a limited palette for versatility. I do wish they would be more open about their ingredients, but I have a feeling that they view "extra" ingredients in their formulas as "trade secrets" to be hush hush about. Honestly though, if people like me doing lightfast testing, or the geologist doing microscope work, can figure out some of the ingredients - then competitors surely could too. Maybe they can work on a balance of properly labeling things while still keeping their mystical verbiage to better balance keeping us all happy :)
This color looks gorgeous! Might even be worth getting despite Daniel smiths prices here :0! Lovely painting demo as well!
Thank you for this video! I am an art supply hoarder as well. I have so many different brands and so much paint! I like that you used a black light, I think it's very useful to know what is in your paint, that is why I am learning how to make my own. Just because we prefer a brand we should never assume that they are going to hit it out of the park with all their products. Although I did find the response from DS a little condescending, I still love their paints. They just need to be truthful. Nothing wrong with saying that we have to do it X so that we can have consistency from batch to batch. If people know how paint is made then they would have a better understanding of the controversy. I hope that you will not be attacked by people who are uneducated in printmaking. I love your videos please make more!
Thank you! I've overall been getting a decent balance between those who just like the information, to those who don't understand why anyone is surprised or mad at Daniel Smith... to those who are pretty upset and think it's wrong of anyone to ever buy DS paints again. I feel like putting what I've learned out there, while helping point out that some of these are unique materials that help artists create things that might not be possible otherwise, is more valuable than picking sides in this debate. I'll do my best to keep making these kinds of videos promoting informed freedom of choice :)
This is really interesting, and I appreciate all the hard work you do. The alternatives and mixes give everyone a chance to try new things while remaining neutral. As for this color, I've been avoiding it all along because I thought it was just a mix of Phthalo Blue GS and white, which does not interest me. (I think I may have ended up with a tube from another brand that was.) So, this was enlightening and made me want to try it, especially for mixes. Since the florescence doesn't affect the hue's lightfastness, I'd be ok with using it for finished pieces.
As for the ordeal, I think everyone should just decide for themselves. I've been a big fan of DS paint, and have more tubes than anyone really needs, but the response was less than stellar. Most knew that the Primateks were doctored, but it was that "bad" handling (and lack of clarity) that set people off. Unfortunately, many people are naíve to think that any of these other companies aren't hiding things, too. One just got caught. Personally, I will continue to use what I've got, and maybe add a tube or two to mix my own Primatek versions once they run out. However, there are some pigments they just do best. I'm into several brands, so loyalty isn't an issue, and Roman Szmal has become a new favorite. But, I'm also curious to see how or if they clear this up, since I can't imagine it not hurting their sales a bit. Hopefully, some clarity will come. There's no need to artists to take out their frustrations on each other. Buy or don't buy.
I avoided this color for years assuming the same thing. I've always wondered if there were undisclosed white pigments added to some of the other brands of manganese blue hue. I think the optical brightener was a way for them to lighten this phthalo blue without making it opaque. Agreed, overall I feel like the best thing we can all do is just be honest and share what we learn, let everyone make their own choices. Thanks for your thoughtful comment! Happy painting :)
This is like an amazing archeology discovery lol!
Ha! It certainly felt that way :) I had struggled with mixing a realistic lunar blue with normal phthalo blue, but when I saw the fluorescent property it basically told me that it was manganese blue hue they used instead of a normal phthalo blue. Sometimes paying attention to the weird stuff solves the mystery of "how did they mix that?"!
this is really informative! Who would know there is flourescent dye in this paint?! Your mixing result indeed looks very close to Blue Appatite. It shows that Lunar Black is quite mighty in creating special effect colors :)
I love your videos. They show sensible knowledge based on your own research and experimentation. They are a source of excellent and credible information, and the examples and final artwork are always stunning. It’s clear you put a lot of thought and effort in your work. I thank you so very MySpace because it has helped me get to know colours and their properties better, and has provided me with examples of how I can do my own experimentations.👍🏻
I have the WN version and it's beautiful!
When comparing my tablet to my swatch card the tablet is reading closer to cobalt blue..interesting. now to figure out how to adjust mixes etc in my mind.
Thank you for a great video. I had and cherished a Windsor & Newton manganese blue. The DS is just not close enough, if you ever find a better substitute, please let us know.
It's been such a hard paint to replace, it's sad. While I value Winsor and Newton's new MBH for it's nice convenient sky color, it has little to no granulation and I'm kinda surprised that's what they put out in comparison to their old genuine PB33!
Great video! Thanks for the info!!
That was a really excellent point, about pigment chemicals being mixed in the stones themselves. I hadn't heard that anywhere else, and i think it's a very valid point. On the one hand i "fell" for the romance of painting with the actual gemstone/etc, and felt kind of ripped off - they're SO expensive. On the other hand, they are still some of my favorite colors. That's why this series of yours is so valuable - knowing how to mix the comparable color for a fraction of the cost (and you DO get as close as I've ever seen). So i probably won't be buying much of the Primatek line in the future overall, there may be one or two "convenience" colors I'll stick with. Another really informative and in-depth review. Really excellent. Thanks!
Beautiful painting and great coverage/testing of the paint! I love your channel for your honesty and grounded-ness 💕 I have the same thoughts on Daniel Smith, I wasn’t surprised even a little and still I would like to have more info disclosed by brands. Like someone said above, I’d prefer to see this in our foods first. (If I’m having to choose one over the other ) Thanks for another great video full of information !
I've been on the fence about DS Manganese Blue Hue for a while but you've knocked me over to the buy side.
Have you tried Da Vinci's Manganese Blue Mixture? It has the original PB33 along with a Phthalo Blue pigment.
This DS version is quite fun! Yes I tried DV, you can see the DaVinci version at 2:14 - I was not happy with it. It seems like they used a really finely particle or tiny amount of PB33, because it doesn't really granulate and the color seemed too dark and dull to be a good replacement for what we used to be able to buy.
@@KimberlyCrick i had this same question, as i have just bought the DaVi MBMixture. your DaVi swatch does look much darker than the one i did yesterday (i also have the ds MBH for comparison), so i wonder - did you find the DaVi dulls/darkens over time?
at the moment i would say the DaVi is a very few degrees towards green compared to the DS. i was pleased that both paints lift the same, which means the DaVi B15 has been treated in a similar way to the DS... as you say, coarser particles. Also pleased that the DaVi has no fluorescence - thanks also for investigating and demonstrating this.
@@davejohnson5365 I haven't seen the final lightfast test results for DaVinci yet, but similarly to other PB15 or PB33 paints I don't expect any noteworthy fading. Phthalo Blue does have a tendency to dull over time, though this is not very remarkable and takes a really long time. As an LFII color only long term direct sunlight tests should result in a minor loss of vibrancy, but no fading or lightening. I did notice that DaVinci seems to use a darker shade of Phthalo Blue, or a different source of Manganese Blue than Old Holland's paint used to use, so the formula overall seems less comparable to what I was used to. It's definitely possible that DV's already deeper value might result in less visible dulling after a lightfast test.
@@KimberlyCrick ty. and many thanks for taking the time to pass on detailed information - on both of the posts i made..
I was also wondering about the blue glow of the lunar blue. Never had the manganese blue hue to notice that!
What a great video!
It would be interesting to see these colors compared to the Schmincke supergranulating paints. They do have a few colors in their range where PBk11 is mixed with blue pigments. Does someone have both?
I am sympathetic to the fact that not everyone is science/geology savvy(I'm by no means an expert and only took 2 college-level geology classes before I decided to pursue equine instead), but it was a big ol' duh moment for me. It's absurd(for me, I'm having trouble articulating my thoughts at the moment due to only having about 3ft of visibility in this brain fog) to think that they are solely grinding up high-quality precious stones and shoving them in tubes. With that being said, I do think the lack of transparency is punishable by disappointment and distrust for those who care about it. Especially when it comes to a company that promotes itself as trying to be more environmentally conscious.
The brand loyalty and hype thing never seem to work out well. Funnily enough, I do have a loyalty to DS Manganese Blue Hue. I love it. It would take a lot to pull it from my cold dead hands.
I've been watching through your videos recently, for some reason you don't pop up much on my feed and my ADHD brain forgets anything I cannot see in front of my face. I think I could listen to you read entire technical textbooks and I'd still thoroughly enjoy every second of it. Thank you for your knowledge, your calm voice, and for existing in general. You and Oto have been a HUGE help to me when it comes to picking paint. I can't remember the last time I didn't consult your content when considering purchases.
I'm so glad to hear that, thank you for your thoughtful comment. Sometimes it feels like I'm reading technical textbooks when I go over these speeches about pigment properties lol. I'm happy to hear it's still enjoyable even if I go pretty thorough and in-depth when talking about paint. I'm with you about Manganese Blue Hue - I really appreciate having it on my palette. Regardless of the Primatek mineral controversy, I'll definitely still be using this color! Happy painting :)
Awesome video so helpful! Thank you
Love your video. And listen couple times.
Hi.. I have learned so much already from watching your videos and visiting your site. I have already revamped my selection of colours and am amazed at the variety of colours I can create now. I do have a couple of little questions though. I have an old Van Gogh palette with a green #366. However, when I visit their site there is no colour that corresponds with this green. I also have from the same set a viridian and when I blend the #366 with a pthalo blue ( blue shade) I can approximate the viridian quite well. But that leaves me not knowing what this #366 really is. Do you have any idea what this bright blue leaning apple green might be?
I was also hoping to know if you recommend any particular optical brighteners to add to paints if you want a fluo effect, even if it's not in DS Mag Blue hue. I bought the WN pan version and love the colour. It's clear and delicious and you're right, it really makes a wonderful sky blue that doesn't feel as heavy as the cerluean. Unfortunately, in my local art shop, they didn't have French Ultramarine blue by Schminke...just the super fine one. Alas, rural France is also a challenge for getting Da Vinci colours and I've yet to find White Nights here either. Still Sennelier, Rembrandt, WN, Van Gogh and such are all wonderful....Ps, Do you have a video on brush recommendations?just curious. Thank you so much for what you do.
Your #366 sounds like it accidentally got the wrong label or code printed, as 366 appears to be quin rose pv19. Luckily all of van goghs greens, even "viridian", are made from PG7 phthalo * green. If it's a yellowish green it's likely also got a touch of PY154 in it, more towards blue probably just PG7. I would assume it's the green the color most resembles in their catalog not taking the code number into consideration. They should mark Viridian as "hue" because it's meant to look like PG18 the true viridian pigment with granulation.
I use princeton neptune for holding water/big wet washes and princeton heritage for detail/fine point. I have tried some cheaper brush sets which make an appearance once in a while in my videos, but I think I'll do an overall brush spotlight in the future. I think invisible ink would be the best route for just adding uv black light effects to things, I'm working on a list just covering the neon/fluorescent/optical brightener options at www.kimcrick.com/pages/neon-fluorescent-uv-blacklight-glow-paints-fugitive-and-rare-lightfast-watercolors
@@KimberlyCrick Thanks so much for your quick and thoughtful response. I suspect that the colour is actually #662 Premanent Green because it's definitely not a yellow leaning shade and it's not a Hooker's green. I looked at a number of other pan sets and they usually include a 622 as well as the viridian, both of which were in my pan set. Given that I bought it years ago and never made a swatch sheet, I can't be certain but that's what I think it is. A lovely rich colour that I will continue using and with PY150 it makes an amazing lime green. I'm having way too much fun now! Will check out the optical brightener options as my sacred geometry paintings with the finetec colours would be amazing in black light! Ok and my local art supply store hasNeptune brushes but a #6 is 24 euros so definitely a birthday present wish list item. Brushes really are a challenge too because I've been buying cheap options and am never happy with them. They never keep a point, don't hold much water, don't have much spring, and frankly, I'm tired of putting money into crap brushes that don't do what I want. So, yes, a brush video would be super helpful. Thanks again and be well.
Interesting and informative
Do you know of any other watercolors that glow like this (besides opera pink). I'm loving how I can paint something that under regular light look like a "normal" painting but when you shine a uv light on it "SURPRISE" it glows.
Thank you for all your work....I would have never guessed I had a color on my pallet that glows like this otherwise. Now I check every color just in case. 🤣
Great video! Thank you!
Dziękuję bardzo ❤️
I love mixing my own colors so do all of the phthalo colors separate in the granulation mixes? I actually love color separation.
In general all granulating colors (textural pigments) will separate from any non-granulating colors (smooth, fine particle pigments) in wet washes. Nearly all Phthalo Blues (other than this very unusual Manganese Blue Hue from D.Smith) will be smooth and flow away from textural colors like lunar black pbk11, lunar earth pbr11, ultra blue pb29, cobalts etc. This particular version of phthalo acts as the granulating part of the color separating mixture (instead of the smooth flowy part like nearly any other brand of phthalo blue would). You will get some effect by mixing two granulating colors together, but the most drastic color separation happens when mixing one of each type. Happy painting :)
Very informative as usual!
I just bought some blue cobalts (M Graham, because _why not,_ I don't have any of that brand, and online swatches got overwhelming), and just now saw that Insta geologist has Sleeping Beauty as mostly PB28 with some earth minerals for the naturally-occuring dirt. (I mean granulation; lunar black?)
I feel so stupid for not knowing I had more cobalts on hand already! 😂 Wonder if I have some surprise cadmiums on hand?
Hi Kim, I'm curious if there is one particular DS set that you're super happy with or even just a couple of additional colours from DS that you would recommend for someone with an already pretty good set of professional paints.I followed your advice on your top recommended pigments and have put together a pretty complete pallete of basic pigments. I am just curious about DS and thought, hmmm, maybe I should just get the primary mixing trio? I do know that I'm still missing a good viridian and a good granulating French Ultramarine so maybe I should start there?
Because there are such lovely, more affordable, regular colors available from brands like DaVinci or White Nights I don't really recommend collecting DS sets. If you're really curious though, their mini tube "essentials" mixing set is usually only about $20-30 on Amazon and you get a variety of 6 primaries. I do love Daniel Smith's Lunar Earth, Lunar Black, Cobalt Teal and MBH though because they are very unique. For the best granulating French Ultramarine I'd go with Schmincke. For Viridian - M.Graham. You'll get the most texture and color separating effects with these.
@@KimberlyCrick Lovely, thanks so much! I already have those two and the six tubes essentials in my basket through amazon France so I'm right on track. Now I just need some decent paper. you're a real belssing. Merci!
At 7:26 , I would say that the right side swatch is noticeably duller and greyer than the left side. Is that something you could tell IRL?
Personally, I'm probably not buying any more DS. Some of their Primatek labelling was just straight up false, and the response from the company has been condescending at best. I have plenty of other brands I can support.
I don't necessarily need _everything_ listed, but I want at least the major pigments used to be disclosed in the pigment list. That's one of the big supposed differences between "professional" paint brands vs hobby/craft ones, after all. Also the response from the company has been INCREDIBLY bad, and I'm just not here for that.
With the proper PR, this whole thing could have been mitigated and handled with the grace that would not have left the utter distaste and disdain that this whole debacle resulted in. A small "Yeah, we sometimes have to fudge the color for constancy, lemme explain the process so you all know what's up" would have gone such a long way. What they went with instead was just a Titanic response in so many ways....
Manganese Blue Hue is LFII, which results in minor, nearly imperceptible dulling or hue shifts. I was a bit more concerned with the LFI cerulean graying above it and the drastic fading in Mayan Blue also noted as LFII. Only LFI colors should remain completely unchanged in long term tests. I just looked at my masstone and diluted lightfast strips and at 6 months there is no visible fading in MBH even when diluted with at least 50% water, so that's very good.
Absolutely understand the feelings about Daniel Smith at the moment. I would 100% be on board with forcing them to list ingredients (even it was vague to protect trade secrets, such as labeling this "fluorescent" like opera pink does though it doesn't tell us the type of dye or brightener chemically. When emailing about a dozen different paint manufacturers for clarity about what the fluorescent ingredients were actually made of I got a lot of brush offs "that's proprietary" they'd say. There were only two companies that were really open and honest about their ingredients: Kremer Pigments and Golden/Qor. Golden even put me in touch with their lab director and we had a great chat about chemicals, so I really love them for that :)
Amen!!!!
Great info!
oh my my danny just loves to add secret pigments to the paints...
A non-staining granulating phthalo? I wish I'd seen this before buying enough blue paint to last me a while!
Nice
Cool 👌❣️
I'd been suspicious of the primateks before this came out. Their Lapis doesn't have the payoff, or (frankly) even any resemblance, to what real lapis looks like many hundreds of years later in extant medieval manuscripts. And it is sold as one of their MOST expensive pigments! 🙄
Pretty glad to hear of this news "breaking" although, to be honest, I am also a bit surprised by how strongly people are reacting to the "news." We've found fluorescence etc in stuff that wasn't labeled thusly before (I have deplored that as well), so I don't get why SUDDENLY everyone is shocked.
I hope the backlash leads to real change in the paint industry. Artists are buying artist-grade cause we want to know what we're working with.
If I want mystery paint there's plenty out there. By the time I'm spending $10-$30 a tube, I wanna know what binder, what pigments, what dyes, what the Real lightfastness rating of THE PRODUCT is (NOT THE BEST POSSIBLE RATING OF THE MOST LIGHT FAST INGREDIENT, as tested 20 years ago on a specific alternate pigment source no company can actually source anymore because that specific mine ran out, etc). Binders, chemical reactions, location the natural material was sourced, etc,. can all affect stuff. My fine art is not the place for experiments, unless I am making a conscious choice TO experiment, and then I want to know the variables.
I understand that sentiment - my art is not the place for experiments... and it's a darn shame that I'm forced to do so much fact checking, lightfast tests and ingredient investigations to get to the bottom of what's included in our expensive paints. That being said, almost every brand does something a little questionable, particularly about lacking details on extra ingredients if they are not a pigment. I email a lot of companies and many will tell you additional ingredients and what specifically they are made of is a trade secret/proprietary. I am a little surprised at the amount of both strong and weak reactions from people about this news. It's very scary as a content creator trying to be informative, but not upset either spectrum of viewer. Sadly I expect some drama to be aimed my way in a blame the messanger sort of way :/
@@KimberlyCrick do you happen to have a link to that geologist's work? I am very interested
@@annedavis3340 Info and images about the issue of Primatek mineral paints not seeming to be made of what they imply can be found on instagram under "world pigment day" at instagram.com/p/CN4TTo-FbiT/ and if you're curious about the person behind this polarized microscopy analysis, the geologist who specializes in pigment studies can be looked into by googling "Ruth Siddall UCL". I'm unsure if she's posted the images on other websites.
Honestly the lapis is one I could see as actually being the genuine stone - it's dull, greyish colour is what the very cheapest, lowest grade lapis would produce. The really nice, vivid paints use the exponentially more expensive higher grade stones. Wallace Seymour sells a few different grades of lapis, the most vibrant one is £90 for 5 ml. The DS lapis looks more like the lowest grade versions.
@@FaerieDust There are definitely a huge variety of "grades" in lapis, the most expensive being much more blue and the cheapest stones having a lot of impurities are nearly gray. I noticed that Roman Szmal's version is even weaker than DS, so it appears they use an even cheaper pigment source.
I'm not a fan of the inclusion of the optical brightener and the fact that they still labeled it LFII is just another nail in the coffin for me.
It's intriguing that they managed to make the PB15 non staining and heavily granulating though. I'll see if this one is on my DS dot chart, it might be fun to play around with.
I would never have paid attention to this color because early in my watercolor journey I accidentally bought manganese blue hue by Mission Gold and Van Gogh (if I recall correctly) and both were just regular PB15 and fillers or maybe even white. A complete waste of money.
Technically this color is accurately labeled LFII, as the visible color does not fade any worse than any LFII rated Phthalo Blue. The temporary fluorescent effect seen in MBH, Lunar Blue and Blue Apatite should be labeled as + Fluorescent though. Perhaps "+ temporary fluorescence" to clarify that's always a fugitive bonus effect. Unlike fluorescent colorful dyes (like the bright pink rhodamine in opera pink) the clear optical brightener doesn't have the same dramatic change on color, but definitely helps the lifting, texture and diluting of the PB15 to a lighter brighter blue without the addition of white pigments you may have seen in other MBH. Opera is properly labeled as + fluor, also being fugitive in rating because it's visible hue fades dramatically to an LFIV equivalent over time. We've technically never made paint manufacturers include labels for optical brighteners or dyes, only pigments, so really this is more of a call to action to properly disclose added fluorescence - colorless optical brighteners or colorful dyes alike.
I really wish Golden had just come out with a normal watercolor line. They seem to be one of the most open and trustworthy but their Qor's just aren't suitable for my style of painting. In the meantime I've invested in some M. Graham.
You and me both, I would buy Golden's normal watercolors in a second if they weren't made so high-flow as Qor's Aquazol binder. I love Golden's company ethics and would rather support them, but their paints don't mix well with my other ones and I don't get the results I expect in wet washes.
I like QOR because it tends to push other paints around in wet washes, but I can't get that effect with just QOR.
I would be all for having a more traditional line of Golden watercolors too, but I don't know how practical that would be for them.
Love your take on the primatek “controversy”
If you believe marketing from manufacturers, you will be deceived. These paints are expensive. If you like them and can afford them, use them. If you think “natural” materials are somehow simpler than synthetics, you could not be more wrong. If you’re buying pretty paint from DS, they will deliver. If you want to buy a story, join a religious cult
Very interesting video! If you want to replicate gemstone paints, the solution is to buy said gemstones and grind them in a mortar and pestle, then mix with binder. Daniel Smith Primatek colors are NOT genuine. The bonus? You get much better colors and you know exactly what is in them.
The more I learn about Daniel Smith the less I like their business practices. It is disturbing and disappointing. I don't care if they list everything, but if most of the pigment is synthetic or if you use optical brightners label them as such. Their less than optimal response just screams unprofessional and childish, like a teen getting caught cheating on a test.
Anyway, thank you for your testing! Love your data base and your videos! Happy painting
I can understand that feeling, especially when it comes to synthetic replacements in the primatek line. They should have labels that include any extra ingredient codes. I will say in that in the case of dyes and optical brighteners, even pro grade companies have never been required to list them. Even now several companies still label their opera pink as just PR122 (giving magenta a bad name for the fading of just the fluorescent dye additive). I think it was pressure from customers that resulted in +fluorescent being written. I'm glad it's becoming more common to ask for basic ingredient disclosure (though they may have to be vague for trade secrets).
I think the thing I'm most upset about though is that such a large company continues to label certain colors lightfast that plainly fade. I'm going to touch on some bad practices in my next video that more than a few companies are guilty of - not caring to test their lightfastness properly or just passing along misinformation from pigment sources instead of making their own correct ratings. I've found multiple colors that fade in all brands yet they all use the lazy ASTM LFI rating that either came from some old test in masstone acrylic or oil or directly from a pigment manufacturer. Schmincke, Rembrandt, White Nights and Roman Szmal all made me pretty mad by selling "lightfast" paint they didn't test... treating our artwork as the place for experimenting with unreliable and not thoroughly tested modern pigments (the worst of which being PR177 and P064).
@@KimberlyCrick it is disappointing. I look forward to your video.
@@KimberlyCrick look forward to seeing your video about this. So disappointed by Daniel Smith. I always heard that Winsor & Newton was the gold standard for watercolor paint and wishing now I had listened. I have a 50/50 mix of Daniel Smith and W&N. 😕
All youtubers jumped on board with this bs id like to see them do these test to any other paint brands ..not one its
It wouldn't be so much an issue if Daniel Smith was fair about their pricing and forth coming. They claim/imply the price is high because of the amount of rare minerals they are using in their paint: a straight up lie. This is what people are so hot about. If they said the pricing is what it is, it would be different. We all *know* that art suppliers mark their product up 1000 percent of the cost-to-make, *often even higher*. They justify this by assuming there would be no art without their product. *Well, they are wrong* This is why artist are moving away from art suppliers to handmade paint and product made by artist who make small batches of their paint with care. Also, once one knows how to make paint, *which any artist can do* , freedom occurs and there is no limit to the color hue, tone, spectrum. GOD BLESS.
at such small amount, I'm wondering how toxic this is. unfortunate.
Thank you for your video. Very interesting to know. It takes the art pieces one step further. Informative, never too much for me!