I just came here after seeing your TikTok of “asking whether or not making an 8 minute hate video on a character is too much”. A minute in and I think you need to do more honestly
@@jorikrouwenhorst7220 and let's not forget how the Empire did nothing to secure their citizens in that scenario. And they betrayed the people who did it for them because they're cowards.
@@DogInatutu no they didn't. They left the Redguards to the wolves, signed off on the extermination of the Blades, and actively aid the execution of their most faithful citizens. All to stop a conflict they were winning.
The fact I was literally thinking about this question today is a little bit spooky… more so given I am also replaying be game, have thought a lot about this question, and have written over 40 pages about very topic in trying to flesh out and build a deeper understanding of how the social, political, economically, cultural, martial and historical factors feed into a society that enters a state of civil war.
The falmer weren't originally from Skyrim either! They genocided the atmorans during the night of tears and then got their assess kicked. 😮 Well well well if it isn't the consequences of my actions.
@ The original-original inhabitants of all Tamriel are actually the Argonians. The colonization waves went something like Argonian -> Aldmer (diversifying into Falmer in the North, Chimer in the East, Ayleid in Cyrodiil, etc.) -> Atmoran/Nord
Can't wait for the sequel, what is "Minecraft's Political Message?" - for serious tho, yeah skyrim's politics is wild and I think it's kinda weird that people think the Stormcloaks are just the default good guys. Honestly looking at Fallout: New Vegas would be worth looking at in a long form way, as it provides incredible insight into how "gamers" (eww) view politics.
I always thought that the stormcloaks were the bad guys since before I grew to be somewhat knowledgeable of politics and certainly before I knew what Skyrim was all about and I was always right.
I would like to add: In Sovngarde, you can find Ulfric (if you have killed him by now) and he appears to finally have (somewhat) come to terms, remorsefully, with who the war has actually benefited. He says he had no idea that it was simply feeding Alduin. This, at least for me, was a satisfying enough moment of “oh NOW YOU GET IT?”
Morrowind’s politics are *much* more interesting though. There’s a coalition between the nativist Camonna Tong (nativist terror group) and the more Empire aligned House Hlaalu. Hlaalu is thoroughly controlled by the Tong, despite by all appearances seeming to be the least nativist House. (And may even be collaborating with the villain, who in his own way is trying to create an ethnostate.) House Telvanni’s politics are also a whirl. It’s basically ancap - theft and even murder are fine as long as you can get away with it. It’s a game about the tensions and compromises under colonialism. To some extent the nativist factions’ angers are justified, but they also seek to preserve things like slavery (imposed on Argonians and Khajiits largely).
Daggerfall is similarly very focused on political intrigue. Canonically it’s so complicated that it takes the protagonist at least a decade to sort out. The political machinations are a bit more personal /crusader kings esque- eg, hiding Barenziah and the Emperor’s affair.
I recently revisited Skyrim and couldn’t escape the Stormcloak/MAGA comparisons. When I was a kid, I really thought Ulfric was Just…now I just feel like an idiot. The Empire is not perfect, but their politics are mostly better. At least Tullius is aware that he can’t trust the Thalmor but knows the benefits outweigh the cost. Ulfric is selfish to a fault, and it would’ve cost Skyrim heavily in the long-term if he won.
This is gonna be weird But empire in Skyrim is in the situation Russia was in the 90-es Beaten and severely weakened but not dead nor dying. Even if people saw it as such, leading to years s of underestimating their potential leading to ... well resentment and a dose of fanaticism we see today
That last statement is an evergreen way to think about politics and cultural divisions. Does it really benefit me to hate or be afraid of someone who is different than me in some way? Who does it benefit?
The issue is, if we're comparing this to US politics, the people who are hateful towards others are asking themselves "Who does it benefit for me to accept this person?" I don't know how to bridge that gap, but I do know that it's there.
@@HeadyBop the Empire that gave the Dominion everything they wanted to end a war they were winning? The Empire that lets Aldmeri military wander around it's sovereign territories kidnapping it's citizens at will? The Empire that loses fortified cities to goat headed tribesmen? The Empire that forsakes it's gods and imprisons it's heroes? The Empire that will sell out any other province so they can cling to power in Cyrodil? The Empire who's leadership are plotting against each other for scraps instead fixing anything? I'll take the Skyrim- Hammerfell alliance over that Empire any day of the week.
@@HeadyBop the Empire that gave the Dominion everything they wanted to end a war they were winning? The Empire that lets Aldmeri military wander around it's sovereign territories abducting it's citizens at will? The Empire that loses fortified cities to goat headed tribesmen? The Empire that forsakes it's gods and imprisons it's heroes? The Empire that will sell out any other province so they can cling to power in Cyrodil? The Empire who's leadership are plotting against each other for scraps instead fixing anything? I'll take the Skyrim- Hammerfell alliance over that Empire any day of the week.
I have never sided with Ulfric over the hundreds of hours I played Skyrim. First is on a practical level. I knew that dividing the Empire would just be to the dominions advantage. Later I was like oh you guys are racist, I extra don’t want you to win.
I sided with the stormcloaks the first time I played. My thinking was the empire is bad, and these people just tried to execute me even though I hadn't done anything and wasn't on their list. Then I spent more time with the stormcloaks and Ulfric and always sided with the empire after that.
as a fan of the games first and foremost, i never sided with either the Stormcloaks or the Empire out of my own political leaning, and frankly, i think that if i did so, i would've been trapped by the ouvert grey morality of the game. I think the throughline that runs across the entirety of Skyrim's design is that no one's in the right, no one's the good guy. All sides have a point and all sides take it to an undefendable extreme. Even the Thalmor, which the game spends little time glazing, have a more than valid reason for being so hostile towards the worship of Talos. Even outside of the Civil War quest, the game makes a point of putting you in a tough moral position. Paarthurnax makes you wonder if preventing the destruction of the current world isn't just a way to delay the coming of a new one, and when faced with the Blades' mission, he asks you whether it's better to be born good, or become good overcoming evil. The Stormcloaks have a point, the Empire has a point, the Thalmor have a point, the Greybeards have a point and the Blades have a point (albeit quite questionable in its execution).
I have so little respect for Ulfric Stomrcloak. He's not even doing the nativism right. He tore the country apart in order to worship an Imperial deity. Cut out the middle-man and worship Shor/Shezzar/Lorkhan/Sithis directly. All hail the Missing God.
Talos' potential Shezarrine status makes the anger of the elves even more justified. Lorkhan has, on multiple occasions, sent avatars to commit elven genocide. If Talos is indeed a shezarrine, that means Lorkhan has, by proxy, slithered his way into the Divines, which the elves were forced to worship for an entire era.
@@communistcrooner You're half-right. Shor's Imperial equivalent is Shezzar, a dead patron deity of humankind said to wander the world from beyond the grave in the guise of a mortal. Tiber Septim was (rumored to be) a reincarnation of Shezzar, then ascended to the join the Divines as Talos, taking up Shezzar's empty spot in the Eight-And-One arrangement. Shezzar-worship dropped off a cliff in popularity after that (beginning of the 3rd Era), but Shor-worship remained popular in Skyrim until some point during the 4th Era, since Imperial religion didn't really have much bearing on Nordic religion at the time. Thus my boomer rant.
Lets be real id say most of the charecters in the Elder scrolls can be seen as idiots. Usually blinded by self virtious or power hungry insperations. Every slice of this pie is rotten. They just leave it up to the players to choose what flavor of the rotten pie they get
I have actually bondered these questions myself and as someone who is doing my master's degree in contemporary history about video games (Wolfenstein: The New Order) I appreciate someone talking about the political aspect of video games seriously.
Hi, first time seeing a video. Been in a Skyrim crazy lately so probably that's why your video got recommended! I am a leftist and in the Skyrim Civil war I definetely support the Empire (Even though they also have a lot of flaws). What I would like to point out is that somewhere in the middle of the video you claim the message of the game is that Self determination cannot be first in priority when you're sacrifing citizen rights. I do strongly agree that self determination isn't worth this cost, however, I do NOT agree that this is the intended message of the game. The game puts the Stormcloaks on equal terms with the Empire in terms of player choice, I would argue that it is actually equalling the two choices ideologically speaking, which would in turn make the message of the game that this is indeed a possible choice to make. I believe you may feel this way because as soon as you see the Windhelm situation you think "Wow, this is clearly shit, it is obviously bad". But unfortunely, not everyone has the same view as us, and probably just brush off this entire scenario, and say that Self determination is indeed worth all that, since "Skyrim is for the nords", not other races.
You’re missing a lot of vital context for the civil war that makes the political message less cut and dry. The thing is, the Empire really aren’t the good guys. The Empire, previously having rules over the entirety of Tamriel are supposed to be a cosmopolitan society formed on the idea of equality. That sounds good but throughout their rule they have very consistently gone against those principles. A good example of this was their allowance of the Dunmer’s practice of slavery, despite slavery being outlawed in every other part of the Empire. They even allowed Dunmer slavers to raid Black Marsh and Eleyswyr for Khajiit and Argonian slaves despite them being provinces of the Empire and their people being citizens. They withdrew troops from their provinces back into Cyrodill during the Oblivion crisis which caused a massacre on Summerset Isles and allowed the Thalmor to take power. There’s a lot of other instances of the Empire actively acting against the good of the non-imperial races of Tamriel. Even in Redgaurd, which takes place during the initial establishment of the Empire, they’re treated as the villains. The Stormcloaks are definitely a racist xenophobic movement but the Empire isn’t a force of good either. If anything the Empire caused both Skyrim’s Stormcloak movement and Summerset’s Thalmors by prioritizing their own native population over the minority populations of their Empires. Behind these racist (and explicitly fascist in the Thalmor’s case) movements is a genuine frustration with the Empire because of a history of uneven treatment. Black Marsh also gained independence from the Empire after the Oblivion crisis mainly because of their allowance of slave raids. The Empire is an outdated and unequal state that really doesn’t have a right to exist after failing its citizens so many times. Even if the Stormcloaks shouldn’t be the ones to take power in Skyrim, the Empire shouldn’t either.
I would actually disagree with the idea that Skyrim strictly speaking has a political message. Rather, by making the player the main character in the way that only Bethesda games can, it *poses questions*. Skyrim never tells you whether any choice is good or bad, or right or wrong. Instead, it asks what you, the player, believes. >For instance, it asks: "Do you wish to oppose an imperialistic authoritarian state and help a country achieve self determination? What if it involves supporting zealous ethnonationalists?" (Stormcloaks vs Emprie) Neither one is "good," but which is worse? That is going to depend on your values. >It asks: "Who do you believe a country "belongs to," everyone that lives in it, or the predominant demographic?" (The "Skyrim belongs to the Nords" sentiment) >It asks: "To what extent is religious freedom and free speech important to you, what about when an existential threat looms on the horizon?" (Banning of Talos worship and Thalmor inquisition) >It asks: "Are you willing to sacrifice certain core principles if it means possibly ensuring your survival, or possibly granting yourself better odds?" (The Empire and the 8 Divines or the Stormcloaks and the 9 Divines.) >It asks: "Are you better off as an independent nation when facing an existential threat, possibly forming coalitions with other independent nations, or are your odds better when under the united rule of an empire?" (The Dominion defeated the Empire, but an independent Hammerfell fared well against them) >It asks: "Is the racial and cultural homogeneity of a country important to you, what if it comes at the cost of its overall effectiveness?" (Agian, the "Skyrim belongs to the Nords" sentiment.) (I'm sure there are more questions but you get the point and I'm tired of typing on my phone lol) Your comparisons to real world history, and the parallels that you draw are not Skyrim's "message" per se, they are your answers to the questions it poses to you. Personally if given the choice I would *always* side with the Empire over the Stormcloaks, I want mankind to have the greatest odds of survival, and I think they lie with the Empire... But I'm not religious. A deeply religious Christian might due to their own faith empathize/sympathize(???) with the Stormcloaks, and side with the rebels so the Nords can worship as they please. I could probably sacrifice my right to free speech during, say, war time, but if you're a hardcore libertarian NOTHING should infringe upon it, and so you might side with the Stormcloaks. The only political message I can think of is the one you mention in this video: Your geopolitical enemies will exploit domestic struggles to gain power over you, but I don't know if that's necessarily a message as much as it is simply a realpolitikal fact.
The problem is the implication that the Empire is somehow the better option for defending humanity when the empire, quite frankly, has been consistently bad at defending itself from existential threats. if it werent for literal magic men appearing every now and then, usually in an imperial prison, the empire would have gone bye bye a long time ago. The reality is that the stormcloaks, especially as they were originally envisioned by bethesda aka allying with other races and groups in skyrim such as orcs, giants and whatnot, would have a better chance of defending their homeland on their own than they do with the empire. I mean, the empire literally GAVE the Thalmor leeway to not only set up castles and fortifications inside of skyrim, but also carte blanche to imprison, capture, murder, torture and assassinate whoever they please. They literally captured Thorald gray mane and tortured him in one of their dungeons. A son of a major house in Whiterun. no trial, not informing the jarls or anyone else. straight up captured a noble for torture. I get that humans breed quicker and therefore recover quicker than the Aldmeri can but at this point its clear that by the time the Empire is ready to fight again its already been destroyed internally by Thalmor agents due to imperial weakness.
@@boarfaceswinejaw4516 I don't think the game itself implies that the empire is the better option though. From the very beginning they try to execute you for a crime you didn't commit. You've also got Hammerfell which did pretty well on its own against the Thalmor. The Empire had to essentially bribe the Jarls to get them to agree to the White Gold Concordat. I'm sure there are more examples of it being essentially a fallen Empire, and the question the game asks is: "Do you think a fallen Empire stands a better chance against an existential threat than a handful of independent countries?" The answer to that is going to depend on your values.
I don't think that Ulfric is an idiot. His goal isn't to defeat the Thalmor, his goal is to become the unchallenged, dictatorial ruler of Skyrim and he is trying to achieve that goal by any means necessary.
You’re a Stormcloak because you believe in Nord liberation against Imperial tyranny. I’m a Stormcloak because I’m a flagrant racist. *We are not the same.*
I just started playing it again and yes a older more versed version of myself in 5m I was able to conclude ulfric and the Nordic people are like the confederation.
@@JelqKingGooner they aren't even remotely similar. They don't have the same reason for fighting. They don't have a similar social structure. They don't govern the same. The Stormcloaks are like Poland or Hungary.
@LoganLS0 very right wing and they love to segregate so much, so they made it systemic......Right after destroying the original inhabitants of course lol.
I feel like this abridges the Great War conflict too much, and especially the Thalmor’s role in the game/narrative. After executing representatives of the empire, they start the Great War and are an explicitly a fascistic group who oppress their population with expansionist goals. They try to take half of Hammerfell, until beaten back. In game, the Thalmor are even legally allowed to arrest or torture anyone suspected of Talos worship under the control of the empire. I think not including this information simplifies the game to its detriment.
I sided with the Empire, despite all the downsides, it offered the best vision for the future, another war with the Thalmor was all but assured, and Skyrim would have no bargaining power alone, while Skyrim's fighters were brilliant, they relied HUGELY on the logistical support of the Empire, a token fighting force from the Empire was able to stop their revolution cold, without the use of the MC, they could not even win the civil war, it would only be a matter of time for the Empire to send more troops, it's only because they wish to maintain the aesthetics of strength that they only sent a small force. Without the assistance of the Empire Skyrim would be alone in the next war, without the Empire presence to restrict and police the Thalmor, well, we see what the Thalmor do, they take advantage of conflict to further their paramilitary campaign, any kind of obfuscation or policing that the Empire would normally perform, that could be used to prevent the Thalmor from kidnapping or killing Imperial subjects, is absent. Say an Imperial agent or troop discovers a rebellious subject or group, say a cult to Talos, they could right them up for ANYTHING, they don't HAVE to tell the Thalmor the truth, there's ways the Empire can protect its subjects, that is just not possible in Skyrim during the conflict. That's all without touching the politics of the Stormcloaks or the Empire, the Empire is just the best option on a social policy, there's huge freedoms and rights given to Imperial subjects, hell compared to many modern countries, the Empire would still be more socially progressive than many of them, with their sexual and gender equality, and religious freedoms... There's just a few places they could improve, but compared to their peers, the Empire is not exceptional on these fronts, workers rights, slavery, transport/logistics. IRL we relied heavily on river and sea trade and transport, as well as rail ways, even before trains, we worked out transporting goods was much easier and safer by river or rail, I see very little example of trade routes in the Empire, apart from wagon and foot caravans. Similarly slavery and a lack of robust workers' rights is prevalent across the continent. Hell the freedom given to territories of the Empire to free govern is quite large, you pay the taxes, follow the Empire's laws and orders, but in many areas, the state of a territory could govern to their wishes. I just never understood why these chucklefucks in hides and furs thought they could beat the Thalmor on their own when they too lost with the Empire, it's like how the Nazis and similar groups blamed the German government for surrendering, suing for peace, they were already losing the war, they were just trying to end the war with as many working age men left to support the country, I see a parallel between the Nazis and the Stormcloaks in many points, but the biggest tell is how they reacted to losing their world war, and who they decided to blame for that loss.
Low key the desire for a civil war in the context of Skyrim is understandable. Banning Talos is about much more than saying "this god is illegal now bc he eats babies or whatever" it sends a message to the rest of Tamriel that the ultimate hero of mankind actually isn't a god and that men have no divine ancestry unlike the elves who believe themselves to be literal descendants of the Aedra (the good spirits of the setting). Obviously this isn't to justify the racism in the stormcloaks far from it, but this is almost some crusade-era proto-racism that forces many of the people in Skyrim to at least feel like the empire will not fight for them. To loop this back to the real world you can make almost a direct line from this thinking to the MAGA movement. A group of disaffected, economically poor, and angry group of people who feel like they have been left behind at best and at worst are being actively pushed out of society. When you think of it that way its extremely understandable that someone would say "yeah fuck it lets elect the fascist who wants to do race wars again. Last time he was in charge I could still afford rent I will attempt to overturn the government to do that." If anything Skyrim's civil war is a great little mirror on propaganda and how you can build a huge movement with it.
somebody used the word spooky in the comment section... yeah I'm just replaying it after a pause since ... forever :D. That being said I think I'm centrist since I dislike the stormcloaks (racism and so on and ulfric is an ass 100%) on the other hand the empire works with the thalmor...a big minus there. Still I'm leaning towards the empire but not because they are perfect but as you said... lesser evil, at least between those two options at that particular moment.
Im left wing, i always have been. I support Trans rights, gay rights, as well as their right to be acknowledged and seen. I support women's equality, and their right to an abortion regardless of circumstance. I support Universal healthcare (which in my country already exists) and i support workers unions. I am a proponent of the European Union and NATO, and i think its imperative for the western world to support Ukraine against Russia. I still side with the stormcloaks 100% of the time. and here is why. To prefix, I think that a big part of the problem is how half-assed Bethesda wrote the skyrim civil war questline and how very little options there actually are. Fallout new vegas is far better in portraying the actual complexities of such an intimate war. First off: the actual war between the empire and the Aldmeri Dominion. This war was horrific and brutal and brought both sides to exhaustion, and had it not been for the emperor's desire to retake the imperial city it would have been lost. However, despite the fact that both sides were worn out and at a stalemate, the emperor still agreed to a ceasefire treaty that effectively sold out the empire's most loyal provinces, whilst also outlawing the worship of their most important god. Like, imagine if there was a medieval christian empire that covered most of europe, and after a particularly devastating war against the Islamic world or something the pope decided that surrender the entirety of spain to the moors and then declare that you could no longer worship jesus, and that there would be Young Turks type agents going around killing, torturing and kidnapping anyone they suspected of still harboring pro-jesus viewpoints. Like, it would be beyond absurd. Yet that is what the emperor of the empire did. He not only tried to surrender hammerfell (hammerfell rebelled and abandoned the empire and managed to fight off the aldmeri on their own) but also sold out Talos, which in a world where magic and gods are 100% real is beyond screwed up. Of course Skyrim rebelled. Secondly: Blaming the stormcloaks for a quite frankly reasonable response to a messed up situation is itself abhorrent. People keep comparing Stormcloaks to conservatives but make them brown and give them turbans and there is an easier argument that they are more akin to Taliban, people who keep suffering and being killed as part of collateral damage moves to whittle down their rebellious intent, and as a result only creating more rebels. I mean, for fukk sake, the game literally starts with you and a horse thief, people who arent rebels, about to get your heads cut off because you were in the general vicinity of rebels when you got captured. you can blame it on individual imperial zealots but the reality remains the same. The Empire, as well as the Aldmeri, are a bunch of murderous tyrannical bastards, and the emperor has given them leeway to murder and harass Nords wherever they find them and suppress their religion. Thirdly: Again, i have to bring up how Bethesda are bad, like... really bad at creating nuance in conflict. Like, The reason you have to fight Jarl Ballin at Whiterun as a stormcloak even though he literally declared that he was neutral is because Bethesda just could not be bothered giving you the option of actually convincing him to side with the stormcloaks. this is not canon, its bad writing and lazy developing. They just didnt bother giving you the option to be a diplomat, or try to become the high king yourself. Nothing you do matters. you're just great big stupid cog with magical powers. Its frankly insulting. Fourthly: Also, the Aldmeri want to destroy the universe by destroying all the towers, and by giving aldmeri leeway to mess about skyrim the Empire directly created a situation where the Aldmeri might destroy existence as we know it, and the stormcloaks by their very existence is one of the few forces actively pushing back against it and unbeknownst to themselves protecting existence from collapse. Deep lore stuff.
Usually I'd tell people to go check elder scrolls legends for the actual lore of the great war, but the servers have unfortunately been killed yesterday by Todd, so try to find a retrospective of it. That said, the Stormcloak position is an Ultimately illegitimate one regardless of political position because their entire gripe is Talos worship and anyone who knows even a fraction of Tiber Septim's lore or Nord lore would know that no one let alone a Nord should even decide to worship the guy. He betrayed and killed the literal thundercloud living god of the nords to power a giant mecha he then uses to massacre entire civilian populations, he plunged the High Elves homeland into an eternal time war with said giant mecha they are fighting TO THIS DAY, his men massacred city after city in Elsweyr and Hammerfell, personally committed multiple war crimes in Hammerfell in fact, and to top it all off he goddamn groomed and impregnated an underage political prisoner he has as a hostage as a 80 years old grandfather and emperor, a girl who is again as young as his grandson and a friend of said grandson, who he then violently forces to abort against her will in a pretty viscerally horrifying scene. Like, at some point someone should really point out most non imperials have pretty good reasons for hating the guy, especially Altmer who were still alive at the time of his horrors and suffer them to this day, and treat someone who would loudly demand his worship to be instated as state religion and chief of the divine with the same tact one would a Molag Bal worshipper bragging about what Molag Bal did to the first vampire. Especially since, like, a true Nord should be worshipping Kyne instead.
Just gonna point out that if you think outlawing Talos worship is that awful, you do _not_ know who Tiber Septim was lmao This guy is consisrently charactrized, in anything that isn't meant to be propaganda, as a greedy pig of a man.
yhea, we might not agree completely but i def feel this overall, don’t get my wrong stormcloaks aren’t perfect boy scouts but it feels like people watch one half interesting video essay on the topic and start mindlessly parroting this objectively wrong and flawed “stormcloak” bad rhetoric, they frame it like they’re the worst people ever, and it’s funny a common talking point is they’re racism but i mean… if you wanna talk racism look at the meer, like the stormcloaks are the least racist racist group, racist sure, but they could be a lot more racist and still not reach the elder scrolls leaderboards.
Focusing on the politics of the civil war, I'd say the message if any is that politics is hard and muddy. Neither side is a good choice for the country, neither side deserves to win, both sides are actively causing strife on a regular basis. If you don't settle the civil war early you have to meditate a ceasefire that goes about as well as you'd think, constant bickering and accusations.
Being an asset doesn’t mean being on payroll, his movement is beneficial to their goal of weakening the empire, so they want it continue. How is that hard to understand.
@@kalebk9595 Not sure what you mean, I’m just saying that the Stormcloaks aren’t a Thalmor puppet, but a group they see as useful. Everyone thinks that dossier means Ulfric is working with the Thalmor when he most definitely is not.
I am more in favor of the Stormcloaks than most. The critic a lot of people level at the Stormcloaks is that they are weakening the Empire, which is the bullwark against the Thalmor. However, that ignores the fact that the Imperials have no will to fight against the Thalmor. The Empire gave the Thalmor the right to police people within the Empire's own borders, which is almost like giving up sovereignty. And the Empire seems perfectly content with that. If the Stormcloaks win, than the fight against the Thalmor/Dominion becomes really hard to win. If the Imperials win. . . then there won't be a fight against the Thalmor. They will just continue to exert their influence over The Empire. With the Stormcloaks, you are at least given a chance to fight for your values. With the Emperials, you will just see your values eroded with minimal resistance from the imperial political class, who just want to avoid war with the Thalmor at all costs.
Eh... If combating Thalmor supremacy was the goal The people of Skyrim were much better off allying with Hammerfell who ejected the Thalmor their lands. Which is a much better option than going at it alone and throwing your support behind bigots like the StormCloaks. Ally with Hammerfel fight the Thalmor and have a truce with the Empire. It's a win\win. Both the Thalmor and Empire would be hesitant to invade Skyrim if they knew it wasn't alone. Also Hammerfel and Skyrim forming an alliance would be alternative for humanity other than the Empire should it continue to be weak willed against the Thalmor.
@@MagusCimarron Barely any mention of Hammerfel was made in the game. Regardless, Skyrim can't ally with Hammerfell unless the Stormcloaks win the civel war. Being part of the empire, Skyrim can't decide its own foreign policy. So no treaty with Hammerfal is possible.
You actually missed some key stuff in this case. The Empire does want to kick the Thalmor's teeth in, heck, politically the Empire wants to reconquer the isles. Problem: They literally didn't have the strength to do that, and don't have the strength to fight the civil war *and* the Thalmor right now. The Empire agreed to the terms of the treaty under some severe duress, and until Ulfric started his rebellion? *Really* weren't enforcing the terms in Skyrim. Heck, in Whiterun there's a prophet of Talos screaming at the top of his lungs right in front of the seat of power, and stays there even Whiterun is solidly in Imperial hands. The Empire basically went 'We do not worship Talos anymore. -wink-'... until Ulfric made a huge stink about it and the Empire, with gritted teeth, let agents of the Thalmor into Skyrim to enforce the terms of the treaty as opposed to starting a second front of a war. Because that's the thing, Ulfric starts up a civil war, and then the Thalmor go 'Oh, you're *not* doing the treaty? Guess we need to restart the war from our end, right?' and the Empire has to decide to either open a war on two fronts or let the Thalmor do their fuckshit while they deal with Ulfric.
@ The empire had over ten years to recover after the last war. If they didn't have the will to resist at that point, when were they going to? After 15 years? Twenty? After a whole generation? Btw, the Empire isn't forced to fight Ulfric. They could have just allowed Skyrim to secede. And preserve their strength to guard against the elves if they were truly worried about that. That is an option.
@@najex1 Even if we accept the premise that the Empire wasn't resisting the Thalmor, which is pretty clearly untrue given the obvious tensions and how the Empire pretty blatantly turned a blind eye to violations of the treaty until there was a big stink about it? Yes. A full generation. That's how long it takes to rebuild an army, and it will favor humanity over the elves. Also, the idea that they didn't have to fight Ulfric is just... *wild*. 'If they're really worried about people stealing their lunch money then they should just let Ulfric steal their lunch money'. Like, you talked about the right to police people within their own borders as a big critique of the Empire and then have literally turned around and said that the Empire should let Ulfric police people within their own borders and change those borders. Also, it really needs to be noted that the Summerset Isles only were conquered by a Dragonborn who used the superweapon that broke time. The Empire can't just dictate terms to the Thalmor, anymore than the Thalmor can just dictate terms to them now that they don't have their army in the heart of the Empire.
Ulfric is the Based warrior king who is willing to risk everything for the traditional folkways, religion, and nativist concerns of his people. He also wants to cut taxes. And the Stormcloaks aren't discriminatory. The gave the Dark Elves a section of Windhelm for free but all they do is complain it isn't good enough. The reason the Argonians have to stay outside the city is that they kept getting in fights with the Dark Elves. Turns out, if you import the world you import the world's problems. The Empire is a cowardly corrupt decadent dying bureaucratic mess. It repeatedly breaks every promise it makes and sells it's subject populations down the river. It takes marching orders from Elf Nazis. It has no redeeming qualities. If Skyrim remains part of Cyrodil's dominion they'll be dragged down with them.
@@LoganLS0 and what of the hundreds of thousands, perhaps millions, of Bretons, imperials, redguards, orcs, bosmer, altmer, dunmer, argonian, and khajit who live within Skyrim’s borders and have for many years? Is Skyrim not also for them?
@ExtremelySadMan Presumably they came to Skyrim because they found the geography and Nordic culture gave them better opportunities than their homelands. So they should assimilate into that Nordic culture and if they don't want to they can leave. I get why the Dunmer left Morrowind. I've been there, it isn't a great place. So the last thing I want is to see Skyrim become more like Morrowind. Nordic concerns should come first in the Nordic homeland (that goes for every other group too) and under the Empire's governance they aren't even on the list.
@@LoganLS0 The Dunmer left Morrowind because red mountain erupted and made it literally uninhabitable. It had nothing to do with the socioeconomic conditions of Morrowind and everything to do with a gigantic natural disaster that is still ongoing. By demanding assimilation, and punishing inability to do so with deportation, you are no better than the aldermeri “Elf Nazis” you talked about earlier.
I just came here after seeing your TikTok of “asking whether or not making an 8 minute hate video on a character is too much”. A minute in and I think you need to do more honestly
Lets not forget that Ulfric put down another nativist’s rebellion in the region of The Reach.
@@jorikrouwenhorst7220 and let's not forget how the Empire did nothing to secure their citizens in that scenario. And they betrayed the people who did it for them because they're cowards.
@@LoganLS0They secured their citizens from being literally slaughtered by signing the white gold concordant.
@@DogInatutu no they didn't. They left the Redguards to the wolves, signed off on the extermination of the Blades, and actively aid the execution of their most faithful citizens. All to stop a conflict they were winning.
@@LoganLS0 They were very much not winning.
@@DogInatutu they had driven the Dominion out of Cyrodil in a full retreat. Hammerfell later completely drove them out without any help.
The fact I was literally thinking about this question today is a little bit spooky… more so given I am also replaying be game, have thought a lot about this question, and have written over 40 pages about very topic in trying to flesh out and build a deeper understanding of how the social, political, economically, cultural, martial and historical factors feed into a society that enters a state of civil war.
Iirc, the nords aren't even the original inhabitants of Skyrim. The comparison to America gets even stronger....
literally genocided the falmer after the night of tears
The falmer weren't originally from Skyrim either! They genocided the atmorans during the night of tears and then got their assess kicked.
😮 Well well well if it isn't the consequences of my actions.
@ “the snow elves are not from Skyrim” bro they were literally the original inhabitants of most of northern Tamriel
@ The original-original inhabitants of all Tamriel are actually the Argonians. The colonization waves went something like Argonian -> Aldmer (diversifying into Falmer in the North, Chimer in the East, Ayleid in Cyrodiil, etc.) -> Atmoran/Nord
@@SizzleCorndogthey were colonists from Aldmeris
Can't wait for the sequel, what is "Minecraft's Political Message?" - for serious tho, yeah skyrim's politics is wild and I think it's kinda weird that people think the Stormcloaks are just the default good guys. Honestly looking at Fallout: New Vegas would be worth looking at in a long form way, as it provides incredible insight into how "gamers" (eww) view politics.
I’ll follow up on this with videos on the political messages of Tetris and Pong
I always thought that the stormcloaks were the bad guys since before I grew to be somewhat knowledgeable of politics and certainly before I knew what Skyrim was all about and I was always right.
I would like to add: In Sovngarde, you can find Ulfric (if you have killed him by now) and he appears to finally have (somewhat) come to terms, remorsefully, with who the war has actually benefited. He says he had no idea that it was simply feeding Alduin. This, at least for me, was a satisfying enough moment of “oh NOW YOU GET IT?”
I always sided with the Empire. I could never betray Balgruf like that
Stormcloaks are just Viking proud boys.
Ok, ... thats not what i had on my 2025 bingo card.
YET HERE IT IS
Morrowind’s politics are *much* more interesting though. There’s a coalition between the nativist Camonna Tong (nativist terror group) and the more Empire aligned House Hlaalu. Hlaalu is thoroughly controlled by the Tong, despite by all appearances seeming to be the least nativist House. (And may even be collaborating with the villain, who in his own way is trying to create an ethnostate.)
House Telvanni’s politics are also a whirl. It’s basically ancap - theft and even murder are fine as long as you can get away with it.
It’s a game about the tensions and compromises under colonialism. To some extent the nativist factions’ angers are justified, but they also seek to preserve things like slavery (imposed on Argonians and Khajiits largely).
Daggerfall is similarly very focused on political intrigue. Canonically it’s so complicated that it takes the protagonist at least a decade to sort out. The political machinations are a bit more personal /crusader kings esque- eg, hiding Barenziah and the Emperor’s affair.
I recently revisited Skyrim and couldn’t escape the Stormcloak/MAGA comparisons. When I was a kid, I really thought Ulfric was Just…now I just feel like an idiot. The Empire is not perfect, but their politics are mostly better. At least Tullius is aware that he can’t trust the Thalmor but knows the benefits outweigh the cost. Ulfric is selfish to a fault, and it would’ve cost Skyrim heavily in the long-term if he won.
This is gonna be weird But empire in Skyrim is in the situation Russia was in the 90-es
Beaten and severely weakened but not dead nor dying. Even if people saw it as such, leading to years s of underestimating their potential leading to ... well resentment and a dose of fanaticism we see today
Skyrim belongs to the nords
Europe belongs to Europeans
This video was surprising, but welcomed lol. Greatly enjoyed it haha
That last statement is an evergreen way to think about politics and cultural divisions. Does it really benefit me to hate or be afraid of someone who is different than me in some way? Who does it benefit?
The issue is, if we're comparing this to US politics, the people who are hateful towards others are asking themselves "Who does it benefit for me to accept this person?"
I don't know how to bridge that gap, but I do know that it's there.
My Floridian Libertarian friend always sides with the Stormcloaks 💀
All my dyed haired They/them friends side with the empire
@SirBrandan Because only the Empire can defeat the Aldmeri Dominion, my friend 💜
@@HeadyBop common Libertarian W.
@@HeadyBop the Empire that gave the Dominion everything they wanted to end a war they were winning? The Empire that lets Aldmeri military wander around it's sovereign territories kidnapping it's citizens at will? The Empire that loses fortified cities to goat headed tribesmen? The Empire that forsakes it's gods and imprisons it's heroes? The Empire that will sell out any other province so they can cling to power in Cyrodil? The Empire who's leadership are plotting against each other for scraps instead fixing anything?
I'll take the Skyrim- Hammerfell alliance over that Empire any day of the week.
@@HeadyBop the Empire that gave the Dominion everything they wanted to end a war they were winning? The Empire that lets Aldmeri military wander around it's sovereign territories abducting it's citizens at will? The Empire that loses fortified cities to goat headed tribesmen? The Empire that forsakes it's gods and imprisons it's heroes? The Empire that will sell out any other province so they can cling to power in Cyrodil? The Empire who's leadership are plotting against each other for scraps instead fixing anything?
I'll take the Skyrim- Hammerfell alliance over that Empire any day of the week.
gordon ramsey finally some good freaking food dot gif
I have never sided with Ulfric over the hundreds of hours I played Skyrim. First is on a practical level. I knew that dividing the Empire would just be to the dominions advantage.
Later I was like oh you guys are racist, I extra don’t want you to win.
starting the game as an argonian instantly soured me on them, they couldn't hold back at all
I sided with the stormcloaks the first time I played. My thinking was the empire is bad, and these people just tried to execute me even though I hadn't done anything and wasn't on their list.
Then I spent more time with the stormcloaks and Ulfric and always sided with the empire after that.
The stormcloaks are not racist
as a fan of the games first and foremost, i never sided with either the Stormcloaks or the Empire out of my own political leaning, and frankly, i think that if i did so, i would've been trapped by the ouvert grey morality of the game. I think the throughline that runs across the entirety of Skyrim's design is that no one's in the right, no one's the good guy. All sides have a point and all sides take it to an undefendable extreme. Even the Thalmor, which the game spends little time glazing, have a more than valid reason for being so hostile towards the worship of Talos. Even outside of the Civil War quest, the game makes a point of putting you in a tough moral position. Paarthurnax makes you wonder if preventing the destruction of the current world isn't just a way to delay the coming of a new one, and when faced with the Blades' mission, he asks you whether it's better to be born good, or become good overcoming evil. The Stormcloaks have a point, the Empire has a point, the Thalmor have a point, the Greybeards have a point and the Blades have a point (albeit quite questionable in its execution).
I have so little respect for Ulfric Stomrcloak. He's not even doing the nativism right. He tore the country apart in order to worship an Imperial deity. Cut out the middle-man and worship Shor/Shezzar/Lorkhan/Sithis directly. All hail the Missing God.
My understanding was that Shor is Talos. Like same name different language situation.
Talos' potential Shezarrine status makes the anger of the elves even more justified. Lorkhan has, on multiple occasions, sent avatars to commit elven genocide. If Talos is indeed a shezarrine, that means Lorkhan has, by proxy, slithered his way into the Divines, which the elves were forced to worship for an entire era.
@@communistcrooner You're half-right. Shor's Imperial equivalent is Shezzar, a dead patron deity of humankind said to wander the world from beyond the grave in the guise of a mortal.
Tiber Septim was (rumored to be) a reincarnation of Shezzar, then ascended to the join the Divines as Talos, taking up Shezzar's empty spot in the Eight-And-One arrangement. Shezzar-worship dropped off a cliff in popularity after that (beginning of the 3rd Era), but Shor-worship remained popular in Skyrim until some point during the 4th Era, since Imperial religion didn't really have much bearing on Nordic religion at the time. Thus my boomer rant.
Lets be real id say most of the charecters in the Elder scrolls can be seen as idiots. Usually blinded by self virtious or power hungry insperations. Every slice of this pie is rotten. They just leave it up to the players to choose what flavor of the rotten pie they get
I hope this political complexity exists in Hammerfell.
I have actually bondered these questions myself and as someone who is doing my master's degree in contemporary history about video games (Wolfenstein: The New Order) I appreciate someone talking about the political aspect of video games seriously.
Hi, first time seeing a video. Been in a Skyrim crazy lately so probably that's why your video got recommended!
I am a leftist and in the Skyrim Civil war I definetely support the Empire (Even though they also have a lot of flaws).
What I would like to point out is that somewhere in the middle of the video you claim the message of the game is that Self determination cannot be first in priority when you're sacrifing citizen rights. I do strongly agree that self determination isn't worth this cost, however, I do NOT agree that this is the intended message of the game.
The game puts the Stormcloaks on equal terms with the Empire in terms of player choice, I would argue that it is actually equalling the two choices ideologically speaking, which would in turn make the message of the game that this is indeed a possible choice to make.
I believe you may feel this way because as soon as you see the Windhelm situation you think "Wow, this is clearly shit, it is obviously bad". But unfortunely, not everyone has the same view as us, and probably just brush off this entire scenario, and say that Self determination is indeed worth all that, since "Skyrim is for the nords", not other races.
You’re missing a lot of vital context for the civil war that makes the political message less cut and dry. The thing is, the Empire really aren’t the good guys. The Empire, previously having rules over the entirety of Tamriel are supposed to be a cosmopolitan society formed on the idea of equality. That sounds good but throughout their rule they have very consistently gone against those principles. A good example of this was their allowance of the Dunmer’s practice of slavery, despite slavery being outlawed in every other part of the Empire. They even allowed Dunmer slavers to raid Black Marsh and Eleyswyr for Khajiit and Argonian slaves despite them being provinces of the Empire and their people being citizens. They withdrew troops from their provinces back into Cyrodill during the Oblivion crisis which caused a massacre on Summerset Isles and allowed the Thalmor to take power. There’s a lot of other instances of the Empire actively acting against the good of the non-imperial races of Tamriel. Even in Redgaurd, which takes place during the initial establishment of the Empire, they’re treated as the villains.
The Stormcloaks are definitely a racist xenophobic movement but the Empire isn’t a force of good either. If anything the Empire caused both Skyrim’s Stormcloak movement and Summerset’s Thalmors by prioritizing their own native population over the minority populations of their Empires. Behind these racist (and explicitly fascist in the Thalmor’s case) movements is a genuine frustration with the Empire because of a history of uneven treatment. Black Marsh also gained independence from the Empire after the Oblivion crisis mainly because of their allowance of slave raids. The Empire is an outdated and unequal state that really doesn’t have a right to exist after failing its citizens so many times. Even if the Stormcloaks shouldn’t be the ones to take power in Skyrim, the Empire shouldn’t either.
I would actually disagree with the idea that Skyrim strictly speaking has a political message.
Rather, by making the player the main character in the way that only Bethesda games can, it *poses questions*.
Skyrim never tells you whether any choice is good or bad, or right or wrong. Instead, it asks what you, the player, believes.
>For instance, it asks:
"Do you wish to oppose an imperialistic authoritarian state and help a country achieve self determination? What if it involves supporting zealous ethnonationalists?"
(Stormcloaks vs Emprie)
Neither one is "good," but which is worse? That is going to depend on your values.
>It asks:
"Who do you believe a country "belongs to," everyone that lives in it, or the predominant demographic?"
(The "Skyrim belongs to the Nords" sentiment)
>It asks:
"To what extent is religious freedom and free speech important to you, what about when an existential threat looms on the horizon?"
(Banning of Talos worship and Thalmor inquisition)
>It asks:
"Are you willing to sacrifice certain core principles if it means possibly ensuring your survival, or possibly granting yourself better odds?"
(The Empire and the 8 Divines or the Stormcloaks and the 9 Divines.)
>It asks:
"Are you better off as an independent nation when facing an existential threat, possibly forming coalitions with other independent nations, or are your odds better when under the united rule of an empire?"
(The Dominion defeated the Empire, but an independent Hammerfell fared well against them)
>It asks:
"Is the racial and cultural homogeneity of a country important to you, what if it comes at the cost of its overall effectiveness?"
(Agian, the "Skyrim belongs to the Nords" sentiment.)
(I'm sure there are more questions but you get the point and I'm tired of typing on my phone lol)
Your comparisons to real world history, and the parallels that you draw are not Skyrim's "message" per se, they are your answers to the questions it poses to you.
Personally if given the choice I would *always* side with the Empire over the Stormcloaks, I want mankind to have the greatest odds of survival, and I think they lie with the Empire... But I'm not religious.
A deeply religious Christian might due to their own faith empathize/sympathize(???) with the Stormcloaks, and side with the rebels so the Nords can worship as they please.
I could probably sacrifice my right to free speech during, say, war time, but if you're a hardcore libertarian NOTHING should infringe upon it, and so you might side with the Stormcloaks.
The only political message I can think of is the one you mention in this video: Your geopolitical enemies will exploit domestic struggles to gain power over you, but I don't know if that's necessarily a message as much as it is simply a realpolitikal fact.
The problem is the implication that the Empire is somehow the better option for defending humanity when the empire, quite frankly, has been consistently bad at defending itself from existential threats. if it werent for literal magic men appearing every now and then, usually in an imperial prison, the empire would have gone bye bye a long time ago. The reality is that the stormcloaks, especially as they were originally envisioned by bethesda aka allying with other races and groups in skyrim such as orcs, giants and whatnot, would have a better chance of defending their homeland on their own than they do with the empire.
I mean, the empire literally GAVE the Thalmor leeway to not only set up castles and fortifications inside of skyrim, but also carte blanche to imprison, capture, murder, torture and assassinate whoever they please. They literally captured Thorald gray mane and tortured him in one of their dungeons. A son of a major house in Whiterun. no trial, not informing the jarls or anyone else. straight up captured a noble for torture.
I get that humans breed quicker and therefore recover quicker than the Aldmeri can but at this point its clear that by the time the Empire is ready to fight again its already been destroyed internally by Thalmor agents due to imperial weakness.
@@boarfaceswinejaw4516 I don't think the game itself implies that the empire is the better option though.
From the very beginning they try to execute you for a crime you didn't commit.
You've also got Hammerfell which did pretty well on its own against the Thalmor.
The Empire had to essentially bribe the Jarls to get them to agree to the White Gold Concordat.
I'm sure there are more examples of it being essentially a fallen Empire, and the question the game asks is:
"Do you think a fallen Empire stands a better chance against an existential threat than a handful of independent countries?"
The answer to that is going to depend on your values.
I don't think that Ulfric is an idiot. His goal isn't to defeat the Thalmor, his goal is to become the unchallenged, dictatorial ruler of Skyrim and he is trying to achieve that goal by any means necessary.
autocrats are usually idiots...
He is an idiot and a Thalmor tool as well.
@@sjj668he doesn't work for the thalmor at all, the thalmor want the war to continue, winning the war weakens the aldmeri position
You’re a Stormcloak because you believe in Nord liberation against Imperial tyranny. I’m a Stormcloak because I’m a flagrant racist.
*We are not the same.*
you should analyze the political messages in Helldivers 2
What's the point of analysing them when they're clear cut satire?
I have this with so many more gaming franchises but most of all with Assassin's Creed which is nothing but politics.
This is a very nice idea, do 40k next pls
Nuanced political discourse about WH40k? Careful guardsman, I think I just caught a whiff of heresy on the wind...
I just started playing it again and yes a older more versed version of myself in 5m I was able to conclude ulfric and the Nordic people are like the confederation.
@@JelqKingGooner they aren't even remotely similar. They don't have the same reason for fighting. They don't have a similar social structure. They don't govern the same. The Stormcloaks are like Poland or Hungary.
@LoganLS0 very right wing and they love to segregate so much, so they made it systemic......Right after destroying the original inhabitants of course lol.
I feel like this abridges the Great War conflict too much, and especially the Thalmor’s role in the game/narrative. After executing representatives of the empire, they start the Great War and are an explicitly a fascistic group who oppress their population with expansionist goals. They try to take half of Hammerfell, until beaten back.
In game, the Thalmor are even legally allowed to arrest or torture anyone suspected of Talos worship under the control of the empire. I think not including this information simplifies the game to its detriment.
The empire is weak and wouldn’t beat the thalmore again even if they had Skyrim in the empire
Fun video! Definitely correct about the politics. Video was a tad quiet though, hoping you invest in a mic and checking volume levels soon :)
I sided with the Empire, despite all the downsides, it offered the best vision for the future, another war with the Thalmor was all but assured, and Skyrim would have no bargaining power alone, while Skyrim's fighters were brilliant, they relied HUGELY on the logistical support of the Empire, a token fighting force from the Empire was able to stop their revolution cold, without the use of the MC, they could not even win the civil war, it would only be a matter of time for the Empire to send more troops, it's only because they wish to maintain the aesthetics of strength that they only sent a small force.
Without the assistance of the Empire Skyrim would be alone in the next war, without the Empire presence to restrict and police the Thalmor, well, we see what the Thalmor do, they take advantage of conflict to further their paramilitary campaign, any kind of obfuscation or policing that the Empire would normally perform, that could be used to prevent the Thalmor from kidnapping or killing Imperial subjects, is absent.
Say an Imperial agent or troop discovers a rebellious subject or group, say a cult to Talos, they could right them up for ANYTHING, they don't HAVE to tell the Thalmor the truth, there's ways the Empire can protect its subjects, that is just not possible in Skyrim during the conflict.
That's all without touching the politics of the Stormcloaks or the Empire, the Empire is just the best option on a social policy, there's huge freedoms and rights given to Imperial subjects, hell compared to many modern countries, the Empire would still be more socially progressive than many of them, with their sexual and gender equality, and religious freedoms...
There's just a few places they could improve, but compared to their peers, the Empire is not exceptional on these fronts, workers rights, slavery, transport/logistics.
IRL we relied heavily on river and sea trade and transport, as well as rail ways, even before trains, we worked out transporting goods was much easier and safer by river or rail, I see very little example of trade routes in the Empire, apart from wagon and foot caravans.
Similarly slavery and a lack of robust workers' rights is prevalent across the continent.
Hell the freedom given to territories of the Empire to free govern is quite large, you pay the taxes, follow the Empire's laws and orders, but in many areas, the state of a territory could govern to their wishes.
I just never understood why these chucklefucks in hides and furs thought they could beat the Thalmor on their own when they too lost with the Empire, it's like how the Nazis and similar groups blamed the German government for surrendering, suing for peace, they were already losing the war, they were just trying to end the war with as many working age men left to support the country, I see a parallel between the Nazis and the Stormcloaks in many points, but the biggest tell is how they reacted to losing their world war, and who they decided to blame for that loss.
Local imperial philosopher educating the masses of Cyrodiil : Circa 4E 201
Low key the desire for a civil war in the context of Skyrim is understandable. Banning Talos is about much more than saying "this god is illegal now bc he eats babies or whatever" it sends a message to the rest of Tamriel that the ultimate hero of mankind actually isn't a god and that men have no divine ancestry unlike the elves who believe themselves to be literal descendants of the Aedra (the good spirits of the setting). Obviously this isn't to justify the racism in the stormcloaks far from it, but this is almost some crusade-era proto-racism that forces many of the people in Skyrim to at least feel like the empire will not fight for them.
To loop this back to the real world you can make almost a direct line from this thinking to the MAGA movement. A group of disaffected, economically poor, and angry group of people who feel like they have been left behind at best and at worst are being actively pushed out of society. When you think of it that way its extremely understandable that someone would say "yeah fuck it lets elect the fascist who wants to do race wars again. Last time he was in charge I could still afford rent I will attempt to overturn the government to do that." If anything Skyrim's civil war is a great little mirror on propaganda and how you can build a huge movement with it.
Well said, I made a similar comment about the parallels to MAGA before reading this.
video about the war in DR Congo, please
somebody used the word spooky in the comment section... yeah I'm just replaying it after a pause since ... forever :D. That being said I think I'm centrist since I dislike the stormcloaks (racism and so on and ulfric is an ass 100%) on the other hand the empire works with the thalmor...a big minus there. Still I'm leaning towards the empire but not because they are perfect but as you said... lesser evil, at least between those two options at that particular moment.
Solidarity with the Forsworn and all colonized people of Tamriel ✊
The forsworn attack everyone and eat people
Im left wing, i always have been. I support Trans rights, gay rights, as well as their right to be acknowledged and seen. I support women's equality, and their right to an abortion regardless of circumstance. I support Universal healthcare (which in my country already exists) and i support workers unions. I am a proponent of the European Union and NATO, and i think its imperative for the western world to support Ukraine against Russia.
I still side with the stormcloaks 100% of the time. and here is why.
To prefix, I think that a big part of the problem is how half-assed Bethesda wrote the skyrim civil war questline and how very little options there actually are. Fallout new vegas is far better in portraying the actual complexities of such an intimate war.
First off: the actual war between the empire and the Aldmeri Dominion.
This war was horrific and brutal and brought both sides to exhaustion, and had it not been for the emperor's desire to retake the imperial city it would have been lost. However, despite the fact that both sides were worn out and at a stalemate, the emperor still agreed to a ceasefire treaty that effectively sold out the empire's most loyal provinces, whilst also outlawing the worship of their most important god.
Like, imagine if there was a medieval christian empire that covered most of europe, and after a particularly devastating war against the Islamic world or something the pope decided that surrender the entirety of spain to the moors and then declare that you could no longer worship jesus, and that there would be Young Turks type agents going around killing, torturing and kidnapping anyone they suspected of still harboring pro-jesus viewpoints. Like, it would be beyond absurd.
Yet that is what the emperor of the empire did. He not only tried to surrender hammerfell (hammerfell rebelled and abandoned the empire and managed to fight off the aldmeri on their own) but also sold out Talos, which in a world where magic and gods are 100% real is beyond screwed up. Of course Skyrim rebelled.
Secondly: Blaming the stormcloaks for a quite frankly reasonable response to a messed up situation is itself abhorrent. People keep comparing Stormcloaks to conservatives but make them brown and give them turbans and there is an easier argument that they are more akin to Taliban, people who keep suffering and being killed as part of collateral damage moves to whittle down their rebellious intent, and as a result only creating more rebels. I mean, for fukk sake, the game literally starts with you and a horse thief, people who arent rebels, about to get your heads cut off because you were in the general vicinity of rebels when you got captured. you can blame it on individual imperial zealots but the reality remains the same. The Empire, as well as the Aldmeri, are a bunch of murderous tyrannical bastards, and the emperor has given them leeway to murder and harass Nords wherever they find them and suppress their religion.
Thirdly: Again, i have to bring up how Bethesda are bad, like... really bad at creating nuance in conflict. Like, The reason you have to fight Jarl Ballin at Whiterun as a stormcloak even though he literally declared that he was neutral is because Bethesda just could not be bothered giving you the option of actually convincing him to side with the stormcloaks. this is not canon, its bad writing and lazy developing. They just didnt bother giving you the option to be a diplomat, or try to become the high king yourself. Nothing you do matters. you're just great big stupid cog with magical powers. Its frankly insulting.
Fourthly: Also, the Aldmeri want to destroy the universe by destroying all the towers, and by giving aldmeri leeway to mess about skyrim the Empire directly created a situation where the Aldmeri might destroy existence as we know it, and the stormcloaks by their very existence is one of the few forces actively pushing back against it and unbeknownst to themselves protecting existence from collapse. Deep lore stuff.
Usually I'd tell people to go check elder scrolls legends for the actual lore of the great war, but the servers have unfortunately been killed yesterday by Todd, so try to find a retrospective of it.
That said, the Stormcloak position is an Ultimately illegitimate one regardless of political position because their entire gripe is Talos worship and anyone who knows even a fraction of Tiber Septim's lore or Nord lore would know that no one let alone a Nord should even decide to worship the guy.
He betrayed and killed the literal thundercloud living god of the nords to power a giant mecha he then uses to massacre entire civilian populations, he plunged the High Elves homeland into an eternal time war with said giant mecha they are fighting TO THIS DAY, his men massacred city after city in Elsweyr and Hammerfell, personally committed multiple war crimes in Hammerfell in fact, and to top it all off he goddamn groomed and impregnated an underage political prisoner he has as a hostage as a 80 years old grandfather and emperor, a girl who is again as young as his grandson and a friend of said grandson, who he then violently forces to abort against her will in a pretty viscerally horrifying scene.
Like, at some point someone should really point out most non imperials have pretty good reasons for hating the guy, especially Altmer who were still alive at the time of his horrors and suffer them to this day, and treat someone who would loudly demand his worship to be instated as state religion and chief of the divine with the same tact one would a Molag Bal worshipper bragging about what Molag Bal did to the first vampire.
Especially since, like, a true Nord should be worshipping Kyne instead.
Just gonna point out that if you think outlawing Talos worship is that awful, you do _not_ know who Tiber Septim was lmao
This guy is consisrently charactrized, in anything that isn't meant to be propaganda, as a greedy pig of a man.
yhea, we might not agree completely but i def feel this overall, don’t get my wrong stormcloaks aren’t perfect boy scouts but it feels like people watch one half interesting video essay on the topic and start mindlessly parroting this objectively wrong and flawed “stormcloak” bad rhetoric, they frame it like they’re the worst people ever, and it’s funny a common talking point is they’re racism but i mean… if you wanna talk racism look at the meer, like the stormcloaks are the least racist racist group, racist sure, but they could be a lot more racist and still not reach the elder scrolls leaderboards.
Really want the dovakiin to use his power to let talos have independent churches. That is all i want
Focusing on the politics of the civil war, I'd say the message if any is that politics is hard and muddy. Neither side is a good choice for the country, neither side deserves to win, both sides are actively causing strife on a regular basis. If you don't settle the civil war early you have to meditate a ceasefire that goes about as well as you'd think, constant bickering and accusations.
Wake up Sloan! The world is ending on the other side of the pond!
the world is ending everywhere, bud. kinda by definition.
@ here’s your daily reminder that you’re kind of a pedantic asshole, bud
I never understood why people would cuck out to the Thalmor
Stormcloaks are the biggest pro Thalmor lot aint they. /s
Being an asset doesn’t mean being on payroll, his movement is beneficial to their goal of weakening the empire, so they want it continue. How is that hard to understand.
@@kaiserwilhelmii674 so the better alternative is for the empire to just keep doing whatever the thalmor say?
@@kalebk9595 Not sure what you mean, I’m just saying that the Stormcloaks aren’t a Thalmor puppet, but a group they see as useful.
Everyone thinks that dossier means Ulfric is working with the Thalmor when he most definitely is not.
@@raquetdudethe Empire lets Thalmor soldiers march around it's Sovereign territory and persecute it's citizens.
MAKE SKYRIM GREAT AGAIN
I am more in favor of the Stormcloaks than most.
The critic a lot of people level at the Stormcloaks is that they are weakening the Empire, which is the bullwark against the Thalmor. However, that ignores the fact that the Imperials have no will to fight against the Thalmor. The Empire gave the Thalmor the right to police people within the Empire's own borders, which is almost like giving up sovereignty. And the Empire seems perfectly content with that.
If the Stormcloaks win, than the fight against the Thalmor/Dominion becomes really hard to win.
If the Imperials win. . . then there won't be a fight against the Thalmor. They will just continue to exert their influence over The Empire.
With the Stormcloaks, you are at least given a chance to fight for your values. With the Emperials, you will just see your values eroded with minimal resistance from the imperial political class, who just want to avoid war with the Thalmor at all costs.
Eh... If combating Thalmor supremacy was the goal The people of Skyrim were much better off allying with Hammerfell who ejected the Thalmor their lands. Which is a much better option than going at it alone and throwing your support behind bigots like the StormCloaks. Ally with Hammerfel fight the Thalmor and have a truce with the Empire. It's a win\win. Both the Thalmor and Empire would be hesitant to invade Skyrim if they knew it wasn't alone. Also Hammerfel and Skyrim forming an alliance would be alternative for humanity other than the Empire should it continue to be weak willed against the Thalmor.
@@MagusCimarron Barely any mention of Hammerfel was made in the game.
Regardless, Skyrim can't ally with Hammerfell unless the Stormcloaks win the civel war. Being part of the empire, Skyrim can't decide its own foreign policy. So no treaty with Hammerfal is possible.
You actually missed some key stuff in this case. The Empire does want to kick the Thalmor's teeth in, heck, politically the Empire wants to reconquer the isles. Problem: They literally didn't have the strength to do that, and don't have the strength to fight the civil war *and* the Thalmor right now. The Empire agreed to the terms of the treaty under some severe duress, and until Ulfric started his rebellion? *Really* weren't enforcing the terms in Skyrim. Heck, in Whiterun there's a prophet of Talos screaming at the top of his lungs right in front of the seat of power, and stays there even Whiterun is solidly in Imperial hands. The Empire basically went 'We do not worship Talos anymore. -wink-'... until Ulfric made a huge stink about it and the Empire, with gritted teeth, let agents of the Thalmor into Skyrim to enforce the terms of the treaty as opposed to starting a second front of a war. Because that's the thing, Ulfric starts up a civil war, and then the Thalmor go 'Oh, you're *not* doing the treaty? Guess we need to restart the war from our end, right?' and the Empire has to decide to either open a war on two fronts or let the Thalmor do their fuckshit while they deal with Ulfric.
@ The empire had over ten years to recover after the last war. If they didn't have the will to resist at that point, when were they going to? After 15 years? Twenty? After a whole generation?
Btw, the Empire isn't forced to fight Ulfric. They could have just allowed Skyrim to secede. And preserve their strength to guard against the elves if they were truly worried about that. That is an option.
@@najex1 Even if we accept the premise that the Empire wasn't resisting the Thalmor, which is pretty clearly untrue given the obvious tensions and how the Empire pretty blatantly turned a blind eye to violations of the treaty until there was a big stink about it? Yes. A full generation. That's how long it takes to rebuild an army, and it will favor humanity over the elves.
Also, the idea that they didn't have to fight Ulfric is just... *wild*. 'If they're really worried about people stealing their lunch money then they should just let Ulfric steal their lunch money'. Like, you talked about the right to police people within their own borders as a big critique of the Empire and then have literally turned around and said that the Empire should let Ulfric police people within their own borders and change those borders.
Also, it really needs to be noted that the Summerset Isles only were conquered by a Dragonborn who used the superweapon that broke time. The Empire can't just dictate terms to the Thalmor, anymore than the Thalmor can just dictate terms to them now that they don't have their army in the heart of the Empire.
first view
Nope.
Ulfric is the Based warrior king who is willing to risk everything for the traditional folkways, religion, and nativist concerns of his people. He also wants to cut taxes.
And the Stormcloaks aren't discriminatory. The gave the Dark Elves a section of Windhelm for free but all they do is complain it isn't good enough. The reason the Argonians have to stay outside the city is that they kept getting in fights with the Dark Elves. Turns out, if you import the world you import the world's problems.
The Empire is a cowardly corrupt decadent dying bureaucratic mess. It repeatedly breaks every promise it makes and sells it's subject populations down the river. It takes marching orders from Elf Nazis. It has no redeeming qualities. If Skyrim remains part of Cyrodil's dominion they'll be dragged down with them.
“The stormcloaks aren’t discriminatory” my brother in Talos their battle cry is literally “Skyrim is for the Nords!”
@ExtremelySadMan it is.
@@LoganLS0 and what of the hundreds of thousands, perhaps millions, of Bretons, imperials, redguards, orcs, bosmer, altmer, dunmer, argonian, and khajit who live within Skyrim’s borders and have for many years? Is Skyrim not also for them?
@ExtremelySadMan Presumably they came to Skyrim because they found the geography and Nordic culture gave them better opportunities than their homelands. So they should assimilate into that Nordic culture and if they don't want to they can leave. I get why the Dunmer left Morrowind. I've been there, it isn't a great place. So the last thing I want is to see Skyrim become more like Morrowind. Nordic concerns should come first in the Nordic homeland (that goes for every other group too) and under the Empire's governance they aren't even on the list.
@@LoganLS0 The Dunmer left Morrowind because red mountain erupted and made it literally uninhabitable. It had nothing to do with the socioeconomic conditions of Morrowind and everything to do with a gigantic natural disaster that is still ongoing. By demanding assimilation, and punishing inability to do so with deportation, you are no better than the aldermeri “Elf Nazis” you talked about earlier.
YES ALT POLITICS CONTENT WHOOO!
Please more fun politics too bro!