2. (Continuing from previous comment) . . . The work of preaching the gospel to these unbaptized dead goes on even to this day. The messengers now being dispatched by the Savior to the unbaptized who have died include the faithful members of the Church of this dispensation who have died. For when the faithful “depart from mortal life, [they] continue their labors in the preaching of the gospel of repentance and redemption, through the sacrifice of the Only Begotten Son of God, among those who are in darkness and under the bondage of sin in the great world of the spirits of the dead” (D&C 138:57). Work for the Dead One crucial question, however, remains to be answered in order to fulfill the merciful and just plan of God. How can a dead person be baptized? This dilemma is solved through the ordinance of baptism for the dead, which is performed only in sacred temples. If we are worthy, you and I may go to a temple and there receive the ordinance of baptism on behalf of individuals who are dead. Baptism for the dead was practiced among the Saints in the days of Peter and Paul. In teaching the Corinthians about Jesus Christ and the Resurrection of the dead, the Apostle Paul asked, “Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?” (1 Cor. 15:29). Baptism for the dead and other sacred ordinances performed for the dead were restored to earth through the Prophet Joseph Smith. These sacred ordinances are now performed in more than 100 temples throughout the earth. These temples are an outward manifestation of our testimony of the reality of the work that goes on for the dead both here and in the spirit world, a work initiated by the Savior’s visit to the righteous dead. Common Questions This doctrine of ordinance work for the dead raises questions among those not of our faith and sometimes among Latter-day Saints. Following are answers to some of these common questions. What happens if the deceased person doesn’t want to repent or doesn’t want the blessings of baptism? We believe that everyone is free to choose, both in this life and in the spirit world. This freedom is essential to the plan of our Heavenly Father. No one will be coerced into accepting ordinances performed on his or her behalf by another. Baptism for the dead offers an opportunity, but it does not override a person’s agency. But if this ordinance is not performed for them, deceased persons are robbed of the choice to accept or reject baptism. Why do you perform baptisms for deceased people whose lives on earth indicated little inclination to keep the commandments of God? We believe that many people are like Amulek, who once said of himself, “I did harden my heart, for I was called many times and I would not hear; therefore I knew concerning [the gospel of Jesus Christ], yet I would not know” (Alma 10:6). Amulek later became a great missionary and teacher of his people. There was also a time in the Book of Mormon when the more righteous Lamanites hunted down the extremely hardened Gadianton robbers, and “they did preach the word of God among the more wicked part of them, insomuch that this band of robbers was utterly destroyed from among the Lamanites” (Hel. 6:37). We simply do not know who among the dead will turn their hearts to the Lord and repent. We are not in a position to judge. We must do the work and leave the matter in the hands of the deceased person and the Lord. For Those Who Mourn The Savior Himself greatly anticipated His visit to the obedient in the spirit world: “The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live” (John 5:25). His visit organized the preaching of the gospel to those in the spirit world. While in a state of happiness and peace called paradise, the dead who have been obedient await the receiving of a “fulness of joy” (D&C 138:17; see also Alma 40:12). They are busily engaged in the call to preach the gospel. The dead who have not heard or who rejected the gospel in mortality are in darkness, or in a state of misery (see Alma 40:14; D&C 138:2). Yet because of His visit, we have a hope for their salvation. We may go to the temple and turn the key, opening the gates of heaven for them and, by our service, for ourselves. For we know “that they without us cannot be made perfect-neither can we without our dead be made perfect” (D&C 128:15). Mercy and justice combine to give all of our Father’s children the opportunity to return to Him. -By Elder Spencer J. Condie of the Seventy. There is more: "The world does not understand this, but if you will trust the scriptures, Jesus did not take the malefactor to heaven. He took him to the world of spirits, and there are three heavens above that, according to the Holy Scriptures. Why did he take him to paradise (the world of spirits)? It was a great gift and recognition at his hand because of what the malefactor had said on the cross. Then the apostle Peter tells us where he went that day when he was crucified: “… he went and preached unto the spirits in prison, Which sometime were disobedient, … in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.” (1 Pet. 3:19-20.) So instead of the malefactor having to wait for years and years like those who were wicked in the days of Noah, the Savior took him with him that very day to the place where he could hear the gospel preached. Peter tells us that “for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.” (1 Pet. 4:6.) And that is where the malefactor went with the Savior that day, but there are three heavens above that to which Jesus did not take him. You remember when the women came to the sepulcher looking for the body of Jesus and there were two angels, one at the head and one at the foot, and they said, “Why seek ye the living among the dead? He is not here, but is risen.” (Luke 24:5-6.) Then when the Savior spoke to Mary, she said, “Rabboni, which is to say, Master.” (John 20:16.) Then he said, “Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.” (John 20:17.) You see how much easier it is to understand when you read the scriptures correctly. No wonder Jesus said to the Sadducees, “Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures.” (Matt. 22:29.) So that man went with Jesus that day where he could be taught the gospel, but Jesus had not yet ascended to his Father in heaven. At the present time, people are preaching all over the world that all you need to do is to confess that Jesus is the Christ, but that is not what Jesus said. He said, “Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.” He said, “Many shall say to me at that day [speaking of the day of his second coming], Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? “And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” (Matt. 7:21-23.) - By Elder LeGrand Richards of the Council of the Twelve of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
1. Happy Easter to all! What Jesus did during the hours between His death and Resurrection provides the doctrinal foundation for building temples. “Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit” (Luke 23:46). After Jesus spoke these words from the cross, His immortal spirit took leave of His physical body. His lifeless flesh was laid in a sepulchre, and a stone sealed its entrance. A brief time later, angels declared to a group of women gathered at His tomb, “He is not here, but is risen” (Luke 24:6). Jesus’ spirit had reentered His body, forming a glorious union of spirit and flesh never again to be separated. The facts of Jesus’ death and Resurrection are hailed by those of Christian denominations as fundamental tenets. However, what Jesus’ immortal spirit did after His death and before His Resurrection is a mystery to all but the Latter-day Saints. And the significance of what He did during those hours provides the doctrinal foundation for building temples across the earth. Furthermore, a testimony of what He did can greatly console those who mourn the death of a loved one. The Requirement of Baptism To understand why Jesus visited the spirit world after His death, we must return to a night following His first cleansing of the temple at Jerusalem. Nicodemus, because of his prominence as “a ruler of the Jews,” came to the Savior to discuss matters of great concern. Nicodemus acknowledged the Master as “a teacher come from God.” Jesus taught him, “Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God” (John 3:1-2, 5). We are, therefore, required to be baptized if we desire admittance into God’s kingdom. Even Jesus Christ, the one and only sinless man to walk this earth, submitted to this universal requirement (see 2 Ne. 31:5-7).1 Mercy and Justice for the Unbaptized The Lord’s plan of salvation is known by many names. One name is “the plan of mercy” (Alma 42:15). Mercy implies compassion and forgiveness, whereas justice can refer to punishment and retribution. But there are also some softer qualities of divine justice, including equity and fairness. How can His plan be merciful or just if it requires every accountable individual to be baptized when billions of people have died without the opportunity to hear the gospel and choose baptism? The Apostle Peter described the provisions God has made: “For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just [meaning Jesus Christ] for the unjust [meaning you and me], that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit” (1 Pet. 3:18). This Christ did in order to bring the gift of eternal life to all. The Apostle Peter continued, “By which also he [Jesus Christ] went and preached unto the spirits in prison” (1 Pet. 3:19). Who were these people in the spirit world? They were both righteous and unrighteous people who had died. Some had been disobedient and rejected the gospel in the days of Noah (see Joseph Smith Translation, 1 Pet. 3:20). Some had been in the spirit world for thousands of years! Why was the gospel preached in the spirit world? So that the dead might repent and live according to the will of God (see Joseph Smith Translation, 1 Pet. 4:6). Mercy and justice require that those who have died without an opportunity to hear the gospel in mortality receive that opportunity in the spirit world. Mercy and justice also require that those who have rejected the gospel in this life receive some opportunity to hear it again. What about the obedient? People who have accepted and lived according to the gospel of Jesus Christ also inhabit the spirit world. The prophet Enoch foresaw the Crucifixion of the Savior of the world and when “the earth groaned; and the rocks were rent.” He saw that at the Resurrection of Jesus Christ, “the saints arose, and were crowned at the right hand of the Son of Man.” He further saw the obedient in the spirit world come forth in their glorified resurrected bodies, while “the remainder [the wicked] were reserved in chains of darkness until the judgment of the great day” (Moses 7:56-57). Thus, the obedient enter the spirit world to wait the day of their resurrection. The prophet Alma taught that while the obedient wait, they dwell in “a state of happiness, which is called paradise, a state of rest, a state of peace, where they shall rest from all their troubles and from all care, and sorrow” (Alma 40:12). His Visit Brought Dramatic Changes The wondrous benefits to the obedient because of the Savior’s visit to the spirit world were seen in vision by President Joseph F. Smith (1838-1918). He saw the spirit world just before the Savior’s arrival there. The obedient spirits “were gathered together in one place” and “filled with joy and gladness, … rejoicing together because the day of their deliverance was at hand” (D&C 138:12, 15). The Savior appeared to them and declared that the day of their glorious resurrection had come. He spoke to them of “the everlasting gospel, the doctrine of the resurrection and the redemption of mankind from the fall, and from individual sins on conditions of repentance” (D&C 138:19). Among those gathered were Adam and Eve, Noah, and Abraham. Book of Mormon prophets also mingled in the assembly. “These the Lord taught, and gave them power to come forth, after his resurrection from the dead, to enter into his Father’s kingdom” (D&C 138:51). President Joseph F. Smith wondered how the Savior could have preached to all the people in the spirit world in the short time between His death and Resurrection. But President Smith perceived that “unto the wicked he did not go, and among the ungodly and the unrepentant … , his voice was not raised. … “But behold, from among the righteous, he organized his forces and appointed messengers … [to] proclaim liberty to the captives who were bound, even unto all who would repent of their sins and receive the gospel. “Thus was the gospel preached to those who had died in their sins, without a knowledge of the truth, or in transgression, having rejected the prophets” (D&C 138:20, 30-32).
1 Pe 3:19 is not talking about the 3 days of Christ's physical demise. It's saying that Christ, ,in Person of the Spirit, preached to those of Noah's time, when they were alive.
Cumulative case against the Resurrection: 1. The origin of the belief of the disciples can be explained by Jesus predicting his own death and resurrection (if historical). This would prime his followers to believe and declare such a thing happened after his death without evidence even if they didn't understand the prediction at first. In Mt. 16:21-22 cf. Mark 8:31-33, Peter actually seems to understand the prediction (it only takes one catalyst to get a belief started) and in Mt. 27:62-64 the chief priests and Pharisees certainly understand the prediction. In Mark 10:32-34 Jesus gives an exact play by play prediction of what's to happen where no confusion is expressed. So obviously, if your religious leader whom you are committed to makes a prediction more than once and makes it a central tenet of his teaching then the natural conclusion is that you would be biased towards believing it would occur or had occurred after some time reflecting upon it (even without confirming evidence). Moreover, Mark 6:14-16 relays an interesting tradition that Herod and some others were saying John the Baptist had been "raised from the dead" which, if historical, proves the concept of a single dying and rising prophet figure existed in Jesus' time. This is interesting because John and Jesus were both apocalyptic preachers who preached a similar message to the same groups of people and both had been unjustly executed. There is also some evidence that some thought John might be the Messiah and that his sect continued on after his death. It seems the idea of a single figure dying and rising from the dead may have its origin in apocalyptic Judaism. If people were applying the concept to John then it's no surprise that the same circle of people would apply the concept to Jesus after his death. This provides a perfectly plausible natural explanation for the origin of belief in the resurrection that doesn't actually entail God raising Jesus from the dead. www.reddit.com/r/DebateAChristian/comments/8gs86v/the_origin_of_belief_in_jesus_resurrection_can_be/ 2. The original view of Jesus' resurrection/exaltation was that he went to heaven simultaneously with the resurrection or immediately afterwards leaving no room for physical earthly encounters. Phil 2:8-9, Rom. 8:34, Eph. 1:20, Heb. 1:3, 10:12-13, 12:2 can all be plausibly interpreted as a simple one-step resurrection/exaltation to heaven without any intermediate earthly period. The physical resurrection to the earth and Ascension stories were later developments (see below). This means the "appearances" mentioned in 1 Cor 15:5-8 were necessarily spiritual encounters of the exalted Lord from heaven and the gospel depictions are necessarily false. www.reddit.com/r/DebateAChristian/comments/839xt6/jesus_resurrection_was_originally_understood_as/ 3. Second Temple Judaism was a superstitious visionary culture that claimed to have "visions" of God and angels all the time. This provides a cultural background context which raises the prior probability that the "appearances" of Jesus were originally thought of as "visions" or spiritual revelations from heaven. www.reddit.com/r/DebateAChristian/comments/8iq6k9/the_cultural_background_of_judaism_supports_the/ 4. Empty tombs and "missing body" stories were an established literary theme in antiquity. Therefore, it's just as likely that the gospels would be employing the theme as it is that they are reporting a historical fact. Thus, the story by itself cannot serve as evidence for its historicity. An extremely interesting example is the Greek novel Callirhoe by Chariton which may date to before 62 CE due to a possible mention by Persius "To them I recommend the morning's play-bill and after lunch Callirhoe" - (1,134). Just as in the gospels, in Chariton's story, there is the sequence of dawn, visit to the grave, finding the stone removed, fear, inspection of the empty grave, disbelief, and again visit to the grave. www.reddit.com/r/DebateAChristian/comments/ajftnd/empty_tombs_and_missing_body_stories_were_an/ 5. The Resurrection story evolves over time which is consistent with legendary growth. It starts with "spiritual visions" of Jesus from heaven in the earliest firsthand material then gradually evolves to a more physical resurrection over time in the sources which are not firsthand. In order to refute this argument one would have to show it to be implausible and replace it with a better historical hypothesis. www.reddit.com/r/DebateAChristian/comments/6hj39c/the_resurrection_is_a_legend_that_grew_over_time/
No BS Decent attempts but it doesn’t account for all the historical data. The belief that Jesus died, rose bodily from the dead, and was God in the flesh can be traced back within just a few years of the cross using 1st Cor. 15:3-7. Paul wrote it in the early-mid 50s AD, and he got it from other sources, who in turn got it from an oral tradition which you can tell by the way it is spoken rhythmically in Greek. Even skeptical, non-Christian scholars date the text of that passage to the mid-30s AD at the latest. This is just a few years after the cross. And it disproves the notion that Jesus was “elevated” to God-status by legends in later generations. Also, your argument for the disciples having reason to believe because of their pre-conceived beliefs doesn’t work for two reasons. One, overall they CLEARLY didn’t expect nor understand Jesus’ crucifixion. They went into hiding and despair after he died, they were not waiting outside his tomb waiting expectantly for him to rise from he dead. The second reason is that it doesn’t account for the appearances of Jesus to Saul of Tarsus or James the brother of Jesus. Both of whom were non-believers who became believers POST-crucifixion because of appearances of the risen Jesus to them. There are other arguments too, but that’s a start.
@@Metal2Bach The resurrection narratives grow in the telling which may indicate a legend that grew over time. Pay attention to how "experiencing" the Risen Jesus evolves in chronological order. Scholarly consensus dating places the documents as follows: Paul c. 50 CE - is the only firsthand report. He says the Risen Jesus "appeared" ὤφθη (1 Cor 15:5-8) and was experienced through "visions" and "revelations" - 2 Cor 12:1. The appearance to Paul was a vision/revelation *from heaven* - Gal. 1:12-16, Acts 26:19 (not a physical encounter with a revived corpse) and he makes no distinction between what he "saw" and what the others "saw" in 1 Cor 15:5-8. This shows that early Christians accepted claims of "visions" (experiences that don't necessarily have anything to do with reality) as "Resurrection appearances." Paul nowhere gives any evidence of the Risen Christ being experienced in a more "physical" way which means you have to necessarily read in the *assumption* that the appearances were physical, from a later source that Paul nowhere corroborates. What Paul says in Phillipians 2:8-9, Rom. 8:34, and the sequential tradition preserved in Eph. 1:20 is consistent with the belief that Jesus went straight to heaven after the resurrection leaving no room for any physical earthly appearances. If this was the earliest belief then it follows that *all* of the "appearances" were believed to have been of the Exalted Christ in heaven and not physical earthly interactions with a revived corpse. He had a chance to mention the empty tomb in 1 Cor 15 when it would have greatly helped his argument but doesn't. Paul's order of appearances: Peter, the twelve, the 500, James, all the apostles, Paul. No location is mentioned. Mark c. 70 CE - introduces the empty tomb but has no appearance report. Predicts Jesus will be "seen" in Galilee. The original ends at 16:8 where the women leave and tell no one. Mark's order of appearances: Not applicable. Matthew c. 80 CE - has the women tell the disciples, contradicting Mark's ending, has some women grab Jesus' feet, then has an appearance in Galilee which "some doubt" - Mt. 28:17. Matthew also adds a descending angel, great earthquake, and a zombie apocalypse to spice things up. If these things actually happened then it's hard to believe the other gospel authors left them out, let alone any other contemporary source from the time period. Matthew's order of appearances: Two women, eleven disciples. The appearance to the women takes place near the tomb in Jerusalem while the appearance to the disciples happens on a mountain in Galilee. Luke 85-95 CE - has the women immediately tell the disciples, contradicting Mark. Jesus appears in Jerusalem, not Galilee, contradicting Matthew's depiction and Mark's prediction. He appears to two people on the Emmaus Road who don't recognize him at first. Jesus then vanishes and suddenly appears to the disciples. This time Jesus is "not a spirit" but a "flesh and bone" body that gets inspected, eats fish, then floats to heaven while all the disciples watch - conspicuously missing from all the earlier reports. Acts adds the otherwise unattested claim that Jesus appeared over a period of 40 days. Luke omits any appearance to the women. Luke's order of appearances: Two on the Emmaus Road, Peter, rest of the eleven disciples. All appearances happen in Jerusalem. John 90-110 CE - Jesus can now walk through walls and has the Doubting Thomas story where Jesus gets poked. Jesus is also basically God in this gospel which represents another astonishing development. John's order of appearances: Mary Magdalene, eleven disciples, the disciples again plus Thomas, then to seven disciples. In John 20 the appearances happen in Jerusalem and in John 21 they happen near the Sea of Galilee on a fishing trip. As you can see, these reports are inconsistent with one another and represent growth that's better explained as legendary accretion rather than actual history. If these were actual historical reports that were based on eyewitness testimony then we would expect more consistency than we actually get. None of the resurrection reports in the gospels even match Paul's appearance chronology in 1 Cor 15:5-8 and the later sources have amazing stories that are drastically different from and nowhere even mentioned in the earliest reports. The story evolves from Paul's spiritual/mystical Christ all the way up to literally touching a resurrected corpse that flies to heaven! So upon critically examining the evidence we can see the clear linear development that Christianity started with spiritual visionary experiences and evolved to the ever-changing physical encounters in the gospels (which are not firsthand reports). If apologists want to claim this data is consistent with reliable eyewitness testimony then they need to provide other examples about the same event from history that grow in fantastic detail like the gospels do, yet are still regarded to be reliable historical documents. I maintain that this cannot be done. If attempted, they will immediately realize any other historical documents that grow like the gospels do will be legends.
You make a robust comment against it however you don't address the shroud of Turin many believe it to be a forgery and so did I (when I was at my most religious by the way) but then I started hearing things claimed about it I had never known, I feel it could be used as proof of resurrection, here's an in depth presenting of the evidence for anyone who's interested - th-cam.com/video/m_uQTXYMUqI/w-d-xo.html
No BS - or total BS: what about going to your death at the hands of torturers just for the heck of starting an untrue cult you’ll never see spread? Wake up and smell the coffee, moron
@@CodeRed-md3ny I find that a loaded statement, because I worked with people who claimed they were led by the spirit, but their leading was vastly different and contradictory working on the same project. Someone's spirit was clearly wrong. The subjectiveness of it can be dangerous.
The Bible is confusing, perhaps this is why. That's why there are so many disagreements in Christianity and why some Christians didn't want to mix with other Christians. It's kind of wild.
What if Jesus did not die on the cross as an imagined sacrifice for our sins and we are held to account for our morality? After all Jesus said:"You reap what you have sown." as the law of natural justice. God made it quite clear that we must not kill, and Jesus reiterated that in stronger terms. So it is unconscionable that God would condone the murder of one of Sons so that you can live outside of his will. No, it seems that the mission of Jesus has been diverted by his enemies in the priesthood of organized religion.
We are held to account for our morality or lack thereof. That's why Jesus became a substitute for us. If you think you can somehow make atonement for your wrongdoings, you are sadly and proudly, wrong.
Answering from Muslim view. Quran rejects that Jesus was crucified and says one person doesn't pay sin of another. So even if Jesus was crucified , that doesn't mean he died as an atonement for salvation of mankind BTW my own reading of Gospels, I found that there are at least 100+ teachings of Jesus, both explicit and implicit where he teaches salvation through being righteous, believing in God and himself as . One doesn't find a single explicit statement from Jesus where he taught, as preached by St Paul later on, that people needed to believe in his death and resurrection to be saved. So unless someone believes in St Paul, there is no way one can believe in atonement theology.
Find out what conditions are needed for resurrection to happen and let's do it. We don't have to wait until the turbulence time comes to be resurrected, we can do it sooner. Let's stop beating about the Bush.
Many stories in the Bible are not meant to be taken literally, they are often symbolic, figurative lessons. The fig tree that was cursed by Jesus, for example, represents the failure of the Jews to "bear fruit". The most famous story, a dramatic and emotional lesson, is of course the resurrection of Jesus. When all hope has been lost, when you have nothing, don't give up, success often follows failure.
@@dynamicloveministries334 The resurrection is a symbol of hope that things will improve. It's not meant to be taken literally, just like the cursing of the big tree or the Fairy Godmother. You know the story of Cinderella who went to the ball even though it seemed unlikely. I assume you understand the moral of the story without believing Cinderella actually existed.
@@dynamicloveministries334 It seems there are many ways of interpreting the text in old books. Christians do it with their book. Moslems do it with their book. It's a popular pastime. I guess the god of Israel knows we are confused with various interpretations, but doesn't care. Did Jesus literally curse the fig tree ? Did Muhammad lterally fly to Heaven on a winged horse ?
@@dynamicloveministries334 I dismiss old books that are clearly out of date, as hysterical curiosities. Like the Greek and Roman myths, the Jews have their myths. The British have their myths and so do all other ancient countries. Even Australia has myths ! Are you familiar with Aboriginal Religions ?
Tom, Tom, Tom? What tyrant using death? Sin is the tyrant. God rules by fear. Jesus did not sin so could be raised, we must be under Gods laws and overcome sin or die.
God has dealt with death? He's dealt with something he created himself by coming to earth as his own son, dying and coming back to life. Even though God and Jesus are supposed to be pre-existent eternal beings who can't die anyway. Yup, it's all beginning to make no sense whatsoever.
My friend I have emailed Tom without success on this matter, and Tom is wrong in two things. God has not dealt with death Jesus did. Jesus overcome death because he sanctified himself. He did not sin so he was pardoned. God was judge, but the man Jesus who was born under the law had to keep the law. I since have made a Ytube video series 'Myths in so-called Christianity' partly due to frustrations with Tom.
Christianity will never separate itself from its roots in Judaism, which ironically is the only aspect of it that gives it any credibility at all. Both are still absolute tosh nonetheless.
Quite wrong even if you think it is tosh, because according to Wikipedia in the 2nd and 3rd centuries Christianity divorced itself from its roots. I happen to agree. My teaching gives the religion of Christ that started with Abraham full credibility and legitimacy, and from that I have made a Ytube video series called 'Myths in so-called Christianity', exposing the errors that disconnect Christianity from the New Testament.
Unbelievable garbage. What about the "Fulfillment of scripture" when Herod, according to Matthew 2 verses 16 to 18 had all the boys under the age of two in Bethlehem and the surrounding districts, slaughtered. The life of Jesus was not worth one of those slaughtered babies. If Jesus had known about this massacre, he certainly did not apologise to the grief stricken mothers, many of whom would still have been alive. Over to you, Bishop.
This isn't learning this is heresy. why would I want to listen to someone who says that we are powerless in the face of the coronavirus? I'd rather get my encouragement reading the Psalms because the ones (like David) that wrote the Psalms cried out to God and praised HIM at the end of the verses! Such comfort.... ❤ You are only putting forth despair and negativity.... I feel sorry for you. May you find peace in Christ alone because that is the only place you will find it 😉
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Dr. Wright is unlocking an understanding that has been lost in the modern church.
2. (Continuing from previous comment) . . . The work of preaching the gospel to these unbaptized dead goes on even to this day. The messengers now being dispatched by the Savior to the unbaptized who have died include the faithful members of the Church of this dispensation who have died. For when the faithful “depart from mortal life, [they] continue their labors in the preaching of the gospel of repentance and redemption, through the sacrifice of the Only Begotten Son of God, among those who are in darkness and under the bondage of sin in the great world of the spirits of the dead” (D&C 138:57).
Work for the Dead
One crucial question, however, remains to be answered in order to fulfill the merciful and just plan of God. How can a dead person be baptized? This dilemma is solved through the ordinance of baptism for the dead, which is performed only in sacred temples. If we are worthy, you and I may go to a temple and there receive the ordinance of baptism on behalf of individuals who are dead.
Baptism for the dead was practiced among the Saints in the days of Peter and Paul. In teaching the Corinthians about Jesus Christ and the Resurrection of the dead, the Apostle Paul asked, “Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?” (1 Cor. 15:29).
Baptism for the dead and other sacred ordinances performed for the dead were restored to earth through the Prophet Joseph Smith. These sacred ordinances are now performed in more than 100 temples throughout the earth. These temples are an outward manifestation of our testimony of the reality of the work that goes on for the dead both here and in the spirit world, a work initiated by the Savior’s visit to the righteous dead.
Common Questions
This doctrine of ordinance work for the dead raises questions among those not of our faith and sometimes among Latter-day Saints. Following are answers to some of these common questions.
What happens if the deceased person doesn’t want to repent or doesn’t want the blessings of baptism? We believe that everyone is free to choose, both in this life and in the spirit world. This freedom is essential to the plan of our Heavenly Father. No one will be coerced into accepting ordinances performed on his or her behalf by another. Baptism for the dead offers an opportunity, but it does not override a person’s agency. But if this ordinance is not performed for them, deceased persons are robbed of the choice to accept or reject baptism.
Why do you perform baptisms for deceased people whose lives on earth indicated little inclination to keep the commandments of God? We believe that many people are like Amulek, who once said of himself, “I did harden my heart, for I was called many times and I would not hear; therefore I knew concerning [the gospel of Jesus Christ], yet I would not know” (Alma 10:6). Amulek later became a great missionary and teacher of his people.
There was also a time in the Book of Mormon when the more righteous Lamanites hunted down the extremely hardened Gadianton robbers, and “they did preach the word of God among the more wicked part of them, insomuch that this band of robbers was utterly destroyed from among the Lamanites” (Hel. 6:37).
We simply do not know who among the dead will turn their hearts to the Lord and repent. We are not in a position to judge. We must do the work and leave the matter in the hands of the deceased person and the Lord.
For Those Who Mourn
The Savior Himself greatly anticipated His visit to the obedient in the spirit world: “The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live” (John 5:25).
His visit organized the preaching of the gospel to those in the spirit world. While in a state of happiness and peace called paradise, the dead who have been obedient await the receiving of a “fulness of joy” (D&C 138:17; see also Alma 40:12). They are busily engaged in the call to preach the gospel.
The dead who have not heard or who rejected the gospel in mortality are in darkness, or in a state of misery (see Alma 40:14; D&C 138:2). Yet because of His visit, we have a hope for their salvation. We may go to the temple and turn the key, opening the gates of heaven for them and, by our service, for ourselves. For we know “that they without us cannot be made perfect-neither can we without our dead be made perfect” (D&C 128:15). Mercy and justice combine to give all of our Father’s children the opportunity to return to Him. -By Elder Spencer J. Condie of the Seventy.
There is more:
"The world does not understand this, but if you will trust the scriptures, Jesus did not take the malefactor to heaven. He took him to the world of spirits, and there are three heavens above that, according to the Holy Scriptures. Why did he take him to paradise (the world of spirits)? It was a great gift and recognition at his hand because of what the malefactor had said on the cross.
Then the apostle Peter tells us where he went that day when he was crucified: “… he went and preached unto the spirits in prison, Which sometime were disobedient, … in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.” (1 Pet. 3:19-20.)
So instead of the malefactor having to wait for years and years like those who were wicked in the days of Noah, the Savior took him with him that very day to the place where he could hear the gospel preached. Peter tells us that “for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.” (1 Pet. 4:6.) And that is where the malefactor went with the Savior that day, but there are three heavens above that to which Jesus did not take him.
You remember when the women came to the sepulcher looking for the body of Jesus and there were two angels, one at the head and one at the foot, and they said, “Why seek ye the living among the dead? He is not here, but is risen.” (Luke 24:5-6.)
Then when the Savior spoke to Mary, she said, “Rabboni, which is to say, Master.” (John 20:16.) Then he said, “Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.” (John 20:17.)
You see how much easier it is to understand when you read the scriptures correctly. No wonder Jesus said to the Sadducees, “Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures.” (Matt. 22:29.) So that man went with Jesus that day where he could be taught the gospel, but Jesus had not yet ascended to his Father in heaven.
At the present time, people are preaching all over the world that all you need to do is to confess that Jesus is the Christ, but that is not what Jesus said. He said, “Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.”
He said, “Many shall say to me at that day [speaking of the day of his second coming], Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
“And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” (Matt. 7:21-23.) - By Elder LeGrand Richards of the Council of the Twelve of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
Amen.. Amen..
Saved by Grace through Faith 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 God Bless
Amen 🙏.
Tovia Singer should argue with NT, who will chicken out?
Powerful!
God is one☝️☝️☝️☝️☝️☝️
Aman. So good
Tom Wright, "The resurrection of the Son of God"
1. Happy Easter to all! What Jesus did during the hours between His death and Resurrection provides the doctrinal foundation for building temples.
“Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit” (Luke 23:46). After Jesus spoke these words from the cross, His immortal spirit took leave of His physical body. His lifeless flesh was laid in a sepulchre, and a stone sealed its entrance.
A brief time later, angels declared to a group of women gathered at His tomb, “He is not here, but is risen” (Luke 24:6). Jesus’ spirit had reentered His body, forming a glorious union of spirit and flesh never again to be separated.
The facts of Jesus’ death and Resurrection are hailed by those of Christian denominations as fundamental tenets. However, what Jesus’ immortal spirit did after His death and before His Resurrection is a mystery to all but the Latter-day Saints. And the significance of what He did during those hours provides the doctrinal foundation for building temples across the earth. Furthermore, a testimony of what He did can greatly console those who mourn the death of a loved one.
The Requirement of Baptism
To understand why Jesus visited the spirit world after His death, we must return to a night following His first cleansing of the temple at Jerusalem. Nicodemus, because of his prominence as “a ruler of the Jews,” came to the Savior to discuss matters of great concern. Nicodemus acknowledged the Master as “a teacher come from God.” Jesus taught him, “Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God” (John 3:1-2, 5).
We are, therefore, required to be baptized if we desire admittance into God’s kingdom. Even Jesus Christ, the one and only sinless man to walk this earth, submitted to this universal requirement (see 2 Ne. 31:5-7).1
Mercy and Justice for the Unbaptized
The Lord’s plan of salvation is known by many names. One name is “the plan of mercy” (Alma 42:15). Mercy implies compassion and forgiveness, whereas justice can refer to punishment and retribution. But there are also some softer qualities of divine justice, including equity and fairness.
How can His plan be merciful or just if it requires every accountable individual to be baptized when billions of people have died without the opportunity to hear the gospel and choose baptism? The Apostle Peter described the provisions God has made: “For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just [meaning Jesus Christ] for the unjust [meaning you and me], that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit” (1 Pet. 3:18). This Christ did in order to bring the gift of eternal life to all.
The Apostle Peter continued, “By which also he [Jesus Christ] went and preached unto the spirits in prison” (1 Pet. 3:19).
Who were these people in the spirit world? They were both righteous and unrighteous people who had died. Some had been disobedient and rejected the gospel in the days of Noah (see Joseph Smith Translation, 1 Pet. 3:20). Some had been in the spirit world for thousands of years!
Why was the gospel preached in the spirit world? So that the dead might repent and live according to the will of God (see Joseph Smith Translation, 1 Pet. 4:6). Mercy and justice require that those who have died without an opportunity to hear the gospel in mortality receive that opportunity in the spirit world. Mercy and justice also require that those who have rejected the gospel in this life receive some opportunity to hear it again.
What about the obedient? People who have accepted and lived according to the gospel of Jesus Christ also inhabit the spirit world. The prophet Enoch foresaw the Crucifixion of the Savior of the world and when “the earth groaned; and the rocks were rent.” He saw that at the Resurrection of Jesus Christ, “the saints arose, and were crowned at the right hand of the Son of Man.” He further saw the obedient in the spirit world come forth in their glorified resurrected bodies, while “the remainder [the wicked] were reserved in chains of darkness until the judgment of the great day” (Moses 7:56-57). Thus, the obedient enter the spirit world to wait the day of their resurrection.
The prophet Alma taught that while the obedient wait, they dwell in “a state of happiness, which is called paradise, a state of rest, a state of peace, where they shall rest from all their troubles and from all care, and sorrow” (Alma 40:12).
His Visit Brought Dramatic Changes
The wondrous benefits to the obedient because of the Savior’s visit to the spirit world were seen in vision by President Joseph F. Smith (1838-1918). He saw the spirit world just before the Savior’s arrival there. The obedient spirits “were gathered together in one place” and “filled with joy and gladness, … rejoicing together because the day of their deliverance was at hand” (D&C 138:12, 15).
The Savior appeared to them and declared that the day of their glorious resurrection had come. He spoke to them of “the everlasting gospel, the doctrine of the resurrection and the redemption of mankind from the fall, and from individual sins on conditions of repentance” (D&C 138:19).
Among those gathered were Adam and Eve, Noah, and Abraham. Book of Mormon prophets also mingled in the assembly. “These the Lord taught, and gave them power to come forth, after his resurrection from the dead, to enter into his Father’s kingdom” (D&C 138:51).
President Joseph F. Smith wondered how the Savior could have preached to all the people in the spirit world in the short time between His death and Resurrection. But President Smith perceived that “unto the wicked he did not go, and among the ungodly and the unrepentant … , his voice was not raised. …
“But behold, from among the righteous, he organized his forces and appointed messengers … [to] proclaim liberty to the captives who were bound, even unto all who would repent of their sins and receive the gospel.
“Thus was the gospel preached to those who had died in their sins, without a knowledge of the truth, or in transgression, having rejected the prophets” (D&C 138:20, 30-32).
1 Pe 3:19 is not talking about the 3 days of Christ's physical demise. It's saying that Christ, ,in Person of the Spirit, preached to those of Noah's time, when they were alive.
Oh good lord, what a mess
Do you have any physical evidence for your physical claim?
This channel contains crucial informations about the true faith: th-cam.com/users/mhfm1
Cumulative case against the Resurrection:
1. The origin of the belief of the disciples can be explained by Jesus predicting his own death and resurrection (if historical). This would prime his followers to believe and declare such a thing happened after his death without evidence even if they didn't understand the prediction at first. In Mt. 16:21-22 cf. Mark 8:31-33, Peter actually seems to understand the prediction (it only takes one catalyst to get a belief started) and in Mt. 27:62-64 the chief priests and Pharisees certainly understand the prediction. In Mark 10:32-34 Jesus gives an exact play by play prediction of what's to happen where no confusion is expressed. So obviously, if your religious leader whom you are committed to makes a prediction more than once and makes it a central tenet of his teaching then the natural conclusion is that you would be biased towards believing it would occur or had occurred after some time reflecting upon it (even without confirming evidence).
Moreover, Mark 6:14-16 relays an interesting tradition that Herod and some others were saying John the Baptist had been "raised from the dead" which, if historical, proves the concept of a single dying and rising prophet figure existed in Jesus' time. This is interesting because John and Jesus were both apocalyptic preachers who preached a similar message to the same groups of people and both had been unjustly executed. There is also some evidence that some thought John might be the Messiah and that his sect continued on after his death. It seems the idea of a single figure dying and rising from the dead may have its origin in apocalyptic Judaism. If people were applying the concept to John then it's no surprise that the same circle of people would apply the concept to Jesus after his death. This provides a perfectly plausible natural explanation for the origin of belief in the resurrection that doesn't actually entail God raising Jesus from the dead. www.reddit.com/r/DebateAChristian/comments/8gs86v/the_origin_of_belief_in_jesus_resurrection_can_be/
2. The original view of Jesus' resurrection/exaltation was that he went to heaven simultaneously with the resurrection or immediately afterwards leaving no room for physical earthly encounters. Phil 2:8-9, Rom. 8:34, Eph. 1:20, Heb. 1:3, 10:12-13, 12:2 can all be plausibly interpreted as a simple one-step resurrection/exaltation to heaven without any intermediate earthly period. The physical resurrection to the earth and Ascension stories were later developments (see below). This means the "appearances" mentioned in 1 Cor 15:5-8 were necessarily spiritual encounters of the exalted Lord from heaven and the gospel depictions are necessarily false. www.reddit.com/r/DebateAChristian/comments/839xt6/jesus_resurrection_was_originally_understood_as/
3. Second Temple Judaism was a superstitious visionary culture that claimed to have "visions" of God and angels all the time. This provides a cultural background context which raises the prior probability that the "appearances" of Jesus were originally thought of as "visions" or spiritual revelations from heaven. www.reddit.com/r/DebateAChristian/comments/8iq6k9/the_cultural_background_of_judaism_supports_the/
4. Empty tombs and "missing body" stories were an established literary theme in antiquity. Therefore, it's just as likely that the gospels would be employing the theme as it is that they are reporting a historical fact. Thus, the story by itself cannot serve as evidence for its historicity.
An extremely interesting example is the Greek novel Callirhoe by Chariton which may date to before 62 CE due to a possible mention by Persius "To them I recommend the morning's play-bill and after lunch Callirhoe" - (1,134). Just as in the gospels, in Chariton's story, there is the sequence of dawn, visit to the grave, finding the stone removed, fear, inspection of the empty grave, disbelief, and again visit to the grave. www.reddit.com/r/DebateAChristian/comments/ajftnd/empty_tombs_and_missing_body_stories_were_an/
5. The Resurrection story evolves over time which is consistent with legendary growth. It starts with "spiritual visions" of Jesus from heaven in the earliest firsthand material then gradually evolves to a more physical resurrection over time in the sources which are not firsthand. In order to refute this argument one would have to show it to be implausible and replace it with a better historical hypothesis.
www.reddit.com/r/DebateAChristian/comments/6hj39c/the_resurrection_is_a_legend_that_grew_over_time/
No BS Decent attempts but it doesn’t account for all the historical data.
The belief that Jesus died, rose bodily from the dead, and was God in the flesh can be traced back within just a few years of the cross using 1st Cor. 15:3-7. Paul wrote it in the early-mid 50s AD, and he got it from other sources, who in turn got it from an oral tradition which you can tell by the way it is spoken rhythmically in Greek. Even skeptical, non-Christian scholars date the text of that passage to the mid-30s AD at the latest. This is just a few years after the cross. And it disproves the notion that Jesus was “elevated” to God-status by legends in later generations.
Also, your argument for the disciples having reason to believe because of their pre-conceived beliefs doesn’t work for two reasons. One, overall they CLEARLY didn’t expect nor understand Jesus’ crucifixion. They went into hiding and despair after he died, they were not waiting outside his tomb waiting expectantly for him to rise from he dead.
The second reason is that it doesn’t account for the appearances of Jesus to Saul of Tarsus or James the brother of Jesus. Both of whom were non-believers who became believers POST-crucifixion because of appearances of the risen Jesus to them.
There are other arguments too, but that’s a start.
@@Metal2Bach The resurrection narratives grow in the telling which may indicate a legend that grew over time. Pay attention to how "experiencing" the Risen Jesus evolves in chronological order. Scholarly consensus dating places the documents as follows:
Paul c. 50 CE - is the only firsthand report. He says the Risen Jesus "appeared" ὤφθη (1 Cor 15:5-8) and was experienced through "visions" and "revelations" - 2 Cor 12:1. The appearance to Paul was a vision/revelation *from heaven* - Gal. 1:12-16, Acts 26:19 (not a physical encounter with a revived corpse) and he makes no distinction between what he "saw" and what the others "saw" in 1 Cor 15:5-8. This shows that early Christians accepted claims of "visions" (experiences that don't necessarily have anything to do with reality) as "Resurrection appearances." Paul nowhere gives any evidence of the Risen Christ being experienced in a more "physical" way which means you have to necessarily read in the *assumption* that the appearances were physical, from a later source that Paul nowhere corroborates. What Paul says in Phillipians 2:8-9, Rom. 8:34, and the sequential tradition preserved in Eph. 1:20 is consistent with the belief that Jesus went straight to heaven after the resurrection leaving no room for any physical earthly appearances. If this was the earliest belief then it follows that *all* of the "appearances" were believed to have been of the Exalted Christ in heaven and not physical earthly interactions with a revived corpse. He had a chance to mention the empty tomb in 1 Cor 15 when it would have greatly helped his argument but doesn't. Paul's order of appearances: Peter, the twelve, the 500, James, all the apostles, Paul. No location is mentioned.
Mark c. 70 CE - introduces the empty tomb but has no appearance report. Predicts Jesus will be "seen" in Galilee. The original ends at 16:8 where the women leave and tell no one. Mark's order of appearances: Not applicable.
Matthew c. 80 CE - has the women tell the disciples, contradicting Mark's ending, has some women grab Jesus' feet, then has an appearance in Galilee which "some doubt" - Mt. 28:17. Matthew also adds a descending angel, great earthquake, and a zombie apocalypse to spice things up. If these things actually happened then it's hard to believe the other gospel authors left them out, let alone any other contemporary source from the time period. Matthew's order of appearances: Two women, eleven disciples. The appearance to the women takes place near the tomb in Jerusalem while the appearance to the disciples happens on a mountain in Galilee.
Luke 85-95 CE - has the women immediately tell the disciples, contradicting Mark. Jesus appears in Jerusalem, not Galilee, contradicting Matthew's depiction and Mark's prediction. He appears to two people on the Emmaus Road who don't recognize him at first. Jesus then vanishes and suddenly appears to the disciples. This time Jesus is "not a spirit" but a "flesh and bone" body that gets inspected, eats fish, then floats to heaven while all the disciples watch - conspicuously missing from all the earlier reports. Acts adds the otherwise unattested claim that Jesus appeared over a period of 40 days. Luke omits any appearance to the women. Luke's order of appearances: Two on the Emmaus Road, Peter, rest of the eleven disciples. All appearances happen in Jerusalem.
John 90-110 CE - Jesus can now walk through walls and has the Doubting Thomas story where Jesus gets poked. Jesus is also basically God in this gospel which represents another astonishing development. John's order of appearances: Mary Magdalene, eleven disciples, the disciples again plus Thomas, then to seven disciples. In John 20 the appearances happen in Jerusalem and in John 21 they happen near the Sea of Galilee on a fishing trip.
As you can see, these reports are inconsistent with one another and represent growth that's better explained as legendary accretion rather than actual history. If these were actual historical reports that were based on eyewitness testimony then we would expect more consistency than we actually get. None of the resurrection reports in the gospels even match Paul's appearance chronology in 1 Cor 15:5-8 and the later sources have amazing stories that are drastically different from and nowhere even mentioned in the earliest reports. The story evolves from Paul's spiritual/mystical Christ all the way up to literally touching a resurrected corpse that flies to heaven! So upon critically examining the evidence we can see the clear linear development that Christianity started with spiritual visionary experiences and evolved to the ever-changing physical encounters in the gospels (which are not firsthand reports).
If apologists want to claim this data is consistent with reliable eyewitness testimony then they need to provide other examples about the same event from history that grow in fantastic detail like the gospels do, yet are still regarded to be reliable historical documents. I maintain that this cannot be done. If attempted, they will immediately realize any other historical documents that grow like the gospels do will be legends.
@@Metal2Bach Thanks
You make a robust comment against it however you don't address the shroud of Turin many believe it to be a forgery and so did I (when I was at my most religious by the way) but then I started hearing things claimed about it I had never known, I feel it could be used as proof of resurrection, here's an in depth presenting of the evidence for anyone who's interested -
th-cam.com/video/m_uQTXYMUqI/w-d-xo.html
No BS - or total BS: what about going to your death at the hands of torturers just for the heck of starting an untrue cult you’ll never see spread?
Wake up and smell the coffee, moron
It appears that N.T. Wright is leading people to the Faith of the Ancient Church, the Orthodox Church.
I can't figure out NT Wright. He seems to be so right on with a lot of things and yet so off on other things. Confounding.
Didn't know you were the judge of who's right and who's wrong.
Do you mean the NPP?
@@michaelpeach2833 no the Holy Spirit is the teacher of what is right and wrong... look it up
@@CodeRed-md3ny I find that a loaded statement, because I worked with people who claimed they were led by the spirit, but their leading was vastly different and contradictory working on the same project. Someone's spirit was clearly wrong. The subjectiveness of it can be dangerous.
The Bible is confusing, perhaps this is why. That's why there are so many disagreements in Christianity and why some Christians didn't want to mix with other Christians. It's kind of wild.
What if Jesus did not die on the cross as an imagined sacrifice for our sins and we are held to account for our morality? After all Jesus said:"You reap what you have sown." as the law of natural justice. God made it quite clear that we must not kill, and Jesus reiterated that in stronger terms. So it is unconscionable that God would condone the murder of one of Sons so that you can live outside of his will. No, it seems that the mission of Jesus has been diverted by his enemies in the priesthood of organized religion.
We are held to account for our morality or lack thereof. That's why Jesus became a substitute for us. If you think you can somehow make atonement for your wrongdoings, you are sadly and proudly, wrong.
@@gilldachada8079 I don't think you understood what I wrote; but thank you for your comment.
Answering from Muslim view. Quran rejects that Jesus was crucified and says one person doesn't pay sin of another. So even if Jesus was crucified , that doesn't mean he died as an atonement for salvation of mankind
BTW my own reading of Gospels, I found that there are at least 100+ teachings of Jesus, both explicit and implicit where he teaches salvation through being righteous, believing in God and himself as . One doesn't find a single explicit statement from Jesus where he taught, as preached by St Paul later on, that people needed to believe in his death and resurrection to be saved. So unless someone believes in St Paul, there is no way one can believe in atonement theology.
Find out what conditions are needed for resurrection to happen and let's do it. We don't have to wait until the turbulence time comes to be resurrected, we can do it sooner.
Let's stop beating about the Bush.
Goochie
Many stories in the Bible are not meant to be taken literally, they are often symbolic, figurative lessons.
The fig tree that was cursed by Jesus, for example, represents the failure of the Jews to "bear fruit".
The most famous story, a dramatic and emotional lesson, is of course the resurrection of Jesus.
When all hope has been lost, when you have nothing, don't give up, success often follows failure.
Resurrection is not a motive
@@dynamicloveministries334
The resurrection is a symbol of hope that things will improve.
It's not meant to be taken literally, just like the cursing of the big tree or the Fairy Godmother.
You know the story of Cinderella who went to the ball even though it seemed unlikely.
I assume you understand the moral of the story without believing Cinderella actually existed.
@@tedgrant2 It could be taken that way but that is not how the early church understood it.
@@dynamicloveministries334
It seems there are many ways of interpreting the text in old books.
Christians do it with their book. Moslems do it with their book. It's a popular pastime.
I guess the god of Israel knows we are confused with various interpretations, but doesn't care.
Did Jesus literally curse the fig tree ? Did Muhammad lterally fly to Heaven on a winged horse ?
@@dynamicloveministries334
I dismiss old books that are clearly out of date, as hysterical curiosities.
Like the Greek and Roman myths, the Jews have their myths.
The British have their myths and so do all other ancient countries.
Even Australia has myths ! Are you familiar with Aboriginal Religions ?
Tom, Tom, Tom? What tyrant using death? Sin is the tyrant. God rules by fear. Jesus did not sin so could be raised, we must be under Gods laws and overcome sin or die.
God has dealt with death? He's dealt with something he created himself by coming to earth as his own son, dying and coming back to life. Even though God and Jesus are supposed to be pre-existent eternal beings who can't die anyway. Yup, it's all beginning to make no sense whatsoever.
My friend I have emailed Tom without success on this matter, and Tom is wrong in two things.
God has not dealt with death Jesus did.
Jesus overcome death because he sanctified himself. He did not sin so he was pardoned.
God was judge, but the man Jesus who was born under the law had to keep the law.
I since have made a Ytube video series 'Myths in so-called Christianity' partly due to frustrations with Tom.
Christianity will never separate itself from its roots in Judaism, which ironically is the only aspect of it that gives it any credibility at all.
Both are still absolute tosh nonetheless.
Quite wrong even if you think it is tosh, because according to Wikipedia in the 2nd and 3rd centuries Christianity divorced itself from its roots. I happen to agree.
My teaching gives the religion of Christ that started with Abraham full credibility and legitimacy, and from that I have made a Ytube video series called 'Myths in so-called Christianity', exposing the errors that disconnect Christianity from the New Testament.
Unbelievable garbage. What about the "Fulfillment of scripture" when Herod, according to Matthew 2 verses 16 to 18 had all the boys under the age of two in Bethlehem and the surrounding districts, slaughtered. The life of Jesus was not worth one of those slaughtered babies. If Jesus had known about this massacre, he certainly did not apologise to the grief stricken mothers, many of whom would still have been alive. Over to you, Bishop.
It's not Jesus' fault what Herod did. It's Herod's fault.
This isn't learning this is heresy. why would I want to listen to someone who says that we are powerless in the face of the coronavirus? I'd rather get my encouragement reading the Psalms because the ones (like David) that wrote the Psalms cried out to God and praised HIM at the end of the verses! Such comfort.... ❤ You are only putting forth despair and negativity.... I feel sorry for you. May you find peace in Christ alone because that is the only place you will find it 😉
He said exactly the oposite of what you say he said.
He has said literally the opposite of what your saying.
Looks like Lee didn't listen properly
Is that you, Joe? Still fumbling and stumbling through life?
That was gobbldigook