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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 28 ก.ย. 2024
- So in todays Mass Effect Legendary Edition video, i want to discuss a huge question that alot of fans in the community have been asking. And that is "what would have happened if the Council actually supported Shepard completely" in Mass Effect 1?
These are just my own theories & opinions.
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Ashley was right about the council in ME1.
“When their backs are against the wall, they’ll abandon us.”
Ah xenophobe Ash we have dismissed that claim
Yup, the only ones that didn't were the Turians and that was just BECAUSE they were under attack too :D
@@__last ok commie
Didn't Ashley also reference using helmet cams as evidence (why does nobody ever do that in Sci-fi?).
@@__last ME1 Garrus is actually more xenophobic than Ashley, you know? A casually xenophobe one at that.
It really annoys me that even if the original Council survives they still don't believe the Reapers exist despite seeing Sovereign
I know right? 😂
Tbh, its just the typical sign of bad writing - if you wanna have someone appear smart AND you dont know how to do it - make everyone else stupid moronic idiotic brainless ignorant so that your average smart person seems like a genius.
In ME2 Citadel Council and Alliance got the short end of the stick because the writers had "best possible idea" about introducing Cerberus and trying to paint them as ambiguous. They killed Shepard, destroyed Liara's personality, ruined development of Garrus, totally trashed the council and everything JUST SO they can introduce grey Cerberus BUT in ME3 they threw that away and made them again a comical mustache villains that have power to control pretty much every significant center of the galaxy only failing to take the Citadel.
Also, I kinda understand the council and I actually agree with them because Sovereign's existence doesnt prove Reaper invasion is coming AND Shepard's disappearence and reappearance with terrorist organisation is kinda black dot on his/her reputation. Tbf - I wouldnt trust Shepard IRL at all. We see things from Shepard's POV but from Council's POV - Shepard's a lunatic that insists that devil is coming to conquer Middle East and only if USA sends an army to Russia to whipe their forward operating base in Moscow and their secondary base in Beijing you can stop The Devil from taking over (imagine if you heard someone saying this) They cannot act based on one ship appearing to be much higher tech than anything and based on one opinion of a specter that managed to established followship and some sort of cult that believes that Reapers are coming to bring the end of all times, total apocalypse.
Also, if you think about it - when I first played the game, i had Ashley and Kaidan with me on the Citadel and the Conduit made Kaidan (biotic) uncomfortable - did absolutely no asari ever pass around it? Or did all biotics just randomly think its their fault for feeling uneasy? - this is a sign that BW writes a story and never look back whether what they wrote make sense backwards. They only look forward and make things in the present have some references in the future BUT whether present is compatible or plausible with the past is something they obviously never thought about.
They DO believe it. They just publicly deny it. It is shown in the game.
And it might annoy you, but it is quite realistic.
They believed Sovereign to be one big “super ship” created by the Geth. Call it ignorance or naiveté. Either way that was just one ship. We have the info from our perspective, they don’t. It’s really not all that difficult to believe they’d be skeptical about the overall threat.
And what about Grayson... That seems to be a cover-up to me also so who was keeping them from delving further to investigate?
Even though I'm fine with their standard reaction being one of the outcomes for Mass Effect 2 but I wish that after seeing a Reaper attack the Citadel that they'd stop being an echo chamber and have at least one councillor back him.
For example: if the Council is saved and Anderson becomes the Human Councillor, by the time of ME2, have him and the Salarian Councillor enter into a political alliance. Maybe even keep the "Ah yes, Reapers" scene the same but as a facade in the Salarian's case to avoid losing influence with the ones willing to bury their heads in the sand. Then have him and Anderson explain the situation to Shepard by referencing that the Salarians are publicly helping rebuild the Systems Alliance Fleets (perhaps getting more War Assets in ME3) but all they can do to tackle the Collector threat is covertly send in undercover STG teams and stealth ships to monitor sightings of Collectors as direct action would only risk a war with the Terminus Systems that would make it even easier for the Collectors to attack colonies unnoticed.
The Asari secretly supporting Shep could make some sense given they have a beacon.
Irony is that the Turian councilor is voice by Alaistair Duncan-from the Mordor games, and if you ever saw Split Second-Dick Durkin. Seeing a a Reaper should have made him go "That was a fucking IT! We need bigger guns!"
@@thearisen7301 well the main reason I went for the Salarian Councillor because when presented with the evidence, he says "I'm more interested in these Reapers" only to do a full 180 later on.
@@Jedi_Spartan could've had a lot of implications with the krogan-turian mission and the genophage conversation
That would be really cool. Would've made a lot of sense, especially since in ME 3 you meet that Salarian Spectre who is after Kasumi and he basically says "Hey, I believed you from the start. We're not all idiots." So it would've been cool to see that the Salarians were cooking something up to deal with the reapers the entire time. On the whole, of the three council races, the Salarians seem most inclined to believe you.
2:16: The fact that a human dockworker knew the name of two turian secret agents should have been enough to justify an investigation right on the spot.
Or at the very least pulled Saren back into the Citadel to wait and plead his case in person until the trial was fully closed instead of over a hologram. If he was proven guilty the first time then he’s just out there in space without a care in the world still.
One thing that annoyed me about the Council's dismissal of the dockworker was how nobody asked this:
Just how did "one traumatized dockworker" know the name of and can accurately describe a Top Secret special agent who was supposedly never on Eden Prime? Or how his testimony would match Nihlus' remains of a single conventional mass driver shot to the back of the head, as opposed to exotic Geth weapon damage?
Ah yes, Reapers. We have prepared for that threat.
But seriously, Liara mentions the Cipher (or Javik’s presence) triggers the Thessia beacon. Maybe the asari couldn’t pull as much from it as they might have without a “prothean” present.
So they wouldn't have been able to access the Thesia Beacon until after Shepard visits Feros or until the Alliance unearths Javik on Eden Prime, which might have happened earlier if the Asari councilor gave credibility to the notion that the beacon can give people information telepathically and credibility to Shepard in general.
@@grantcawby7225
Agreed
Liara's "mind reading" doesn't seem to be unique to her, so why doesn't the Asari councilor (or some aide) use it to back Shepard after Tali's recording gives credibility to the threat? Yes, only Liara would know about Ilos and you would need the cypher (etc.) to truly understand it, but Liara understood some of it the first time (if you pick her up first).
Well shepard wasnt sure what to make of the vision b4 the cipher and b4 the mind meld thing, with liaras 50+ years of experience with prothean archeology. If the councilor had done it she probably wouldnt make sense of it either and if liara testified or something itd just be hearsay
Even if they conclude Soveriegn was a Geth dreadnought (I want to see their evidence to be so convinced) that would still mean the Geth built a ship far more powerful & capable than an Council race ship. That alone should of kicked off an arms race and lead to things like the repeal of the Treaty of Farfaxin (Mass Effect's version of the London naval treaty that limits Dreadnought numbers)
The benchmark for new ships would be to match or surpass Soveriegn's estimated capabilities. I mean, the Alliance cruisers were unable to destroy Sov. on their own and were destroyed by Sov. quite easily so that'd cause a huge revaluation of ship capabilities.
Not just Thanix cannons but larger drive cores, shields designed to counter Reaper weapons, etc.
The Citadel archive proves that they knew it was not a Geth dreadnought.
@@juzoli and yet they do sweet fuck all regardless. The ending of the first game should have acted as a wakeup call to the Council that their navies no longer had the strongest ships in the galaxy and the Fleets stationed at the Citadel were able to be overrun.
@@Jedi_Spartan Both of them are stupid indeed.
I just say there is a big difference between rejecting the truth, or ignoring it. The results might be the same, but the later is much more realistic, and the motivations can be understood.
Honestly, Shepard’s evidence is enough to warrant further investigations, but not enough to accept it as a fact. So even if the Council takes it seriously, they can’t persuade their governments, and all their people. And without that, people won’t just give up their life, pay 90% taxes, and build only warships and weapons. So they felt powerless, and therefore chose to ignore it, as they couldn’t do anything.
To accept the coming invasion as a fact, they needed 2 things:
- Find the Reaper fleet in dark space, and confirm that there are indeed thousands of them
- Negotiate with Reapers, and confirm their motivations
At least the first one is pretty much impossible…
And in the end, it would be irrelevant anyway. Even with 10x as many warships, the Reapers would easily win anyway…
@@juzoli Oh I know but Shep & Anderson give up on pressing them way too easily.
@@thearisen7301 Well, they were pretty much acting like morons most of the time. Saren Arterius had a very special look with the piping all over his body. A witness can have a problem identifying a Turian. But not that Turian. If you read the novels, you learn the counsel is afraid like hell of the human. They think they have another potential Rachni situation. The survival of the humanity after the "first Contact War" was a big surprise for Counsel. They are just pretending to be friendly. Even as a Specter, Saren Arterius do not trust the Counsel to deal with the situation. The action of Saren his an act of desperation.
I have a better question for you: what IF humanity didn't discover the prothean ruins on Mars until AFTER the reapers invaded and wiped out everyone. I mean, they only harvest civilizations that "develop along the paths they desire" after all and without that technology humanity would of still been too primitive to harvest. Then when humanity did discover prothean technology in a freshly harvested galaxy, we would of have become the "new" protheans as the only advanced organic race left.
Interesting question to pose me thinks.
If we survive overpopulation
remember the Drell
There would have been some potentially violent meetings with Yahg. They are just entering into their space age at the time of the games. Having finally made a successful space ship. Still close to around 1960 era earth tech atm, but humans were able to jump up quickly after finding the archives.
In ME3 codex, there was a race listed, I don't recall their name, that were a new species. During the initial stages of the reaper invasion they destroyed their space capabilities and anything they put in orbit to try and be ignored by the reapers. I do not know of it worked or not but space faring may be advanced enough for harvest while being primitive enough for the reapers to not have to worry about the technological pathway.
@@Zombie0591 oh yeah, I think that was the Raloi.
This is particularly pertinent when you recall that Sovereign was supposed to kick this off decades earlier. The Prothien reprogramming of the Keepers was the delay. I think if the Reapers had invaded while we were still bound to Luna and maybe the I.S.S, we would have been overlooked.
Given how secretive the asari are about that beacon, it seems likely that if Shepard did not kill Shiala on Feros, the asari government would have called her home to get the info from the beacon herself, while Shepard pursued Saren across the galaxy. And given that destroying the Alpha Relay would have only bought them about six months, it might not have been necessary if the crucible could be built in time.
But all this is academic. Reaper artifacts are capable of indoctrination, and the Citadel is a Reaper artifact. Therefore, every government in every cycle was going to dismiss warnings about a coming Reaper invasion until it was too late, and impede efforts to fight back once it was.
that's a good point but given the statements on indoctrination theory I doubt they had considered that either
There's a conversation between EDI and Liara on the Normandy that explains why Tevos (the asari councilor) didn't say anything about the "artifact" earlier. It happens right after Liara confronts Javik about the revelations learned on Thessia, and before Shepard talks to her when she's on the bed. In the conversation, EDI tells Liara that the reason Benezia kept the secret of the beacon from her was because keeping any Prothean knowledge secret is a severe criminal act in Council government. So if Tevos revealed the beacon, the other councilors would have possibly arrested her and anyone else who kept it secret. Or possibly even expelled her and the asari from the council
"The testimony of one traumatized dockworker is hardly compelling proof"
Yes... one traumatized dockworker whom NAMED SAREN WITHOUT PRIOR KNOWLEDGE OF, NOR REASON FOR ACCUSING OTHERWISE.
Except if somebody drops Saren’s name between the attack and his testimony. Which does happen in real life a lot.
@@juzoli he literally hears them talking before shooting him and saren name drops the council and nihlus. It would be enough to at least take it seriously and not just completely blow it off like they do
@@Unknownusername1004 That’s not enough to even suspend Saren. But even ignoring his testimony, it is stupid to stop investigating it after a mere few days. There is no reason to ever stop investigating it, even after the hearing.
2 points against your assertions about the Asari councilor.
1. Being the representative in the citadel council does not necessarily mean they are at the top of the Asari Matriarchy. They are just the ambassador of their species. Probably pretty high up in the ranks, but not necessarily at the top. And not necessarily privy to the true nature of the Thessia beacon
2. Shepard could access the VI in the beacon because of his experience in Eden Prime and the cipher given by the Thorian. I doubt such a cipher exists elsewhere in the galaxy or among the Asari or Benezia could have handed it to Saren from the get-go. Therefore it's unlikely the Asari even knew about the presence of the VI. Their advancements likely derived by reverse-engineering the most surface-level understandings of the beacon and getting that early leg up by coming across the citadel first.
But I agree, if the Asari councilor backed Shepard, things might have turned out differently. But politicians are gonna politic. If she backed Shepard, how far can she push? Will the leaders on Thessia let the human specter access their most jealously guarded secret? After all the hullabaloo about the Eden prime beacon and the need to share Prothean discoveries with the entire galactic community? It would be a very dirty secret to air and would result in the Asari being alienated by the Salarians and Turians.
The Asari councilor also depended a lot on the Turian councilor to make the hard calls. During cutscenes, she would always look at her Turian counterpart when the moment comes to make a decision.
All in all, I wouldn't call it terrible writing, but BioWare could have seeded this plotline better, by having at least some people question the origin of Asari dominance during the first 2 games.
All of it would have been moot if Shepherd just wore a bodycam.
I think the Reapers would keep sabotaging efforts and creating doubt and uncertainty so at best the fleets would be stronger and defense better coordinated. The attack would still come and most of the destruction would take place with help of the indoctrinated. Remember that the Prothian's fought for centuries and still lost... The only difference would be an already complete crucible and that also may have been sabotaged, maybe the delay and rush to build even helped prevent that from occurring. Just my opinion.
But there was a big difference between the prothian cycle and this cycle. When the reapers attacked the Prothians they came right trough the Citadel Portal and killed their Citadel Council so the Prothians where divided right from the beginning. That was not the case with this cycle since the few surviving prothian scientists made sure that the reapers couldn't use the Citadel Portal like they normally do.
Also.. if they had believed shepherd from the start.. they could probably have found a way to counter indoctrination by the time they arrived
Not really. When protheans got attacked they got beaten by the entire Repear fleet.
I'm just gonna say this what if the council was secretly backing Shepard the entire time after Mass effect 1 because they want to keep the galaxy safe by not shoving the galaxy into complete and utter chaos.
It makes sense the Citadel Council wants to keep panic levels low by downplaying the Reaper threat in public. Plus, one of the holograms in the Citadel Archive in _ME3: Citadel_ DLC that states about Sovereign isn't a geth ship implies that the Council, in the intervening time between ME1 and ME3, knew about the Reaper threat.
That would be doing something and that's scary for the council
So you're saying that achieving peace between the quarians and the geth and curing the genophage would still be possible if the council listened to Shepard
I think full backing of the council may have backfired. A large, galaxy-wide preparation effort would have been more easily seen and therefore more easily sabotaged.
Nope, Shepard would not be able to use the Beacon as they lack the Cypher which they get from Feros. So even if the Asari councilor wanted to collaborate this with the Thesia beacon that would not work as the VI could not be tapped into fully by Shepard. Meaning that we are once again back to the council not backing Shepard fully. Also, this is completely guessing that they VI knows about Ilos and the Conduit which I doubt, meaning that even if Shepard could get the Thesia VI then all it would do is confirm that the Reapers were real, not what Saren could be planning or that he was making his way to Ilos to use the Conduit
They would know about reapers and wouldnt ground shepard thus he gets to Ilos sooner.
@@aleksamilosevic8792 No they still wouldn't, this assumes that the only thing on the Becon was the VI.
Doesn’t the Catalyst or Star child also say that the crucible targets all synthetics (in the destroy ending) because the crucible wasn’t fully completed? So if they started it earlier it would mean that the geth wouldn’t be destroyed. But in this timeline that might not be a good thing since Shepard and co would probably never meet Legion cuz the circumstances of the collector attacks would be different and so finding “humanity” within the geth and thus a reason for peace probably wouldn’t happen.
Even in Mass Effect 3,most of our favorite characters said the same thing..it is the Councils fault and I totally 100% agree. The 3 years that oringal Council spent denying the Reapers could have use to be better prepared and building the Crucible.
If the council listened to and believed Shepard back in ME 1 they would've allowed him to fly to Ilos and would've left the citadel in order to be out of danger.
No dead council if the Destiny Ascencion gets destroyed, no sacrificed Alliance ships because there's no council present who needs to be saved.
In Mass Effect 2 they would do what they did offically, but would prepare themselfes as good as possible secretly by analyzing parts of the Souveraign in order to find a weaknesses, developing more evective weapons and fill up supplies of their colonies, like Garrus did right before Mass Effect 3.
In Mass Effect 3 they would act like they did in game: preparing themselfes for the arrival of the Reaper forces, but I think they would also send every engineer and scientist they can spare much earlier in order to start building the crucible.
During Cerberus's coup attempt they would've ordered Ashley/Kaidan to lower her/his weapon and arrest Udina when he tries to open the door behind Shepard, which would lead to Ashley/Kaidan injure and arrest or simply kill Udina because he tries to resist. Shepard would be send to Thessia much earlier therefor beeing there before the Reapers and before Cerberus which means the Citadel beeing the Catalyst is revealed much earlier.
I'm not entirely sure how this would affect the time for the final showdown between Cerberus and the Alliance but the rest of the story would be different. That's for sure.
In the scene where Shepard talks to the Council in ME2, you totally missed an opportunity to insert a Tobey Spider-Man "I missed the part where that's my problem" meme.
The Asari councilor could have also used melding to see everything shephard did, it would have shown her everything the council needed to know.
Even if the council believes you, I think ME1 goes pretty close to the same except that the Citadel is more well defended.
For ME2, I think you’d still fight the collectors. However I’m uncertain if Shepard still pulls a lazuras & if Liara goes down the same path. You’d probably also drum up more political power for the coming war. I think this would also be about the time the Crucible is discovered. The Alliance might take control of the Collector base.
The Battarian Relay still gets destroyed but Shepard wouldn’t be imprisoned for it.
ME3: I think curing the Krogan & settling the Geth Quarian dispute would occur before the Reaper invasion. Potentially the fight with Cerebrus as well.
The rest of ME3 would focus on getting the rest of the galaxy ready to fight, finishing the crucible and fighting the Reapers potentially without needing the crucible.
Mass Effect Andromeda: The Arks get even more funding and is probably upscaled considerably. That’s right, Hanar, Quarians & Geth in Andromeda let’s go!
Well following your idea, they would have had over a two year head start to get everything rolling, so they probably could have completed the Crucible with time to spare since they’d have everyone working on it while not getting absolutely annihilated by the Reapers.
The biggest problem would be the Collectors and Cerberus, as the reapers would probably have them try to stop the construction of the Crucible. However construction would likely be taking place near the Citadel, so they’d have to punch through the no doubt bolstered Citadel defense fleet to reach it.
Great video! This one always interested me and how the higher ups of the Asari could have positively effected the story instead of forestalling the inevitable.
Totally off topic, and maybe something I’d like to see discussed. What has been drifting in my mind for about a decade now is the connection between the Citadel and dark space. We all know (for the most part) all relays are part of a network that has an enter and exit relay. Don’t think we know if you fired through a relay without an end, though I can imagine this would be…somewhat problematic. ME1 states it is the back door for the reapers into the supposed seat of power of the Milky Way as the conduit was the back door from Ilos (thank you Protheans). Size wise, that is a very tiny relay, and where Ilos is a most likely a fraction of the distance, what/where is the other doorway within Dark Space the reapers use to access the citadel? We know in ME2 they were supposedly needing to use the relay in the Bahak system to access the Milky Way more efficiently, so no evidence points to they are (in turn) capable of zipping to any relay without using another connecting relay. We know that the citadel is mostly disguised and can send travelers deep into dark space, but something large enough would be required to send the traveler back into the Milky Way, right? So… what the heck is it? Just a slightly larger relay, floating in the middle of extragalactic nowhere?
Its a plot hole - just like Omega-4 Relay - you dont see any Mass relay when you got through it, you just appear - How collector ships go to Omega-4 Relay? BW Writers: We didnt think that far ahead... (unless of course the Collector base is a relay itself)
@@Dark_Voice yeah, definitely right on that account. I agree with the ME2 situation. At least the ME1 scenario and turn into something xD
Just like Ark
@@Dark_Voice If i remember correctly the cinematic, when we arrive there is quite a debris field, and the angle allow for a relay to be on the part that is not shown, so i would just go with the thing we are told might be when you get the reaper ID : The relay engages a serie of protocols that allows for a more precise transfer to the target relay, and then after that, seeing how the collector ship is made, going through brute force through any debris that would come their way... Or indeed the collector base itself could be a relay
most likely the galaxy would have listen to Liara's "father", and would have build mass relays themselves, while disableing the others. and also the citadel. and the reapers would have been denied the use of relays, while being welcomed with some big ass lasers.
That would of been nice
The council would probably still not know there is a connection between the Collectors and the Reapers, so maybe ME2 could have largely played out as it did, though the story probably would have needed to have a different prologue, because Cerberus would no longer be the only organisation looking for the Reapers, and so they probably would not care about resurrecting Shepard, and neither would the Alliance really. Though perhaps TIM might be the only one with intel that the Collectors are connected to the Reapers and so the Alliance could fob off any concerns over the collectors saying there was a much bigger threat to worry about. Cerberus would convince Shepard to go rogue, after the collectors attack the Normany 1 but don't kill Shep, to deal with the collector threat while the rest of the Alliance and the Council prep for the Reapers. TIM of course would like Shep to join their cause, just because, in Miranda's words "he's a bloody icon". Cerberus could sneak into Mars much sooner to steal all the Prothean information, including the Crucible information (in fact it could have happened off screen during ME1 or even years earlier) and it would be intel Shepard steals back some time during ME2, meaning galactic civilisation doesn't have as much more time to build the crucible than it is given in ME3. Without that intel they are just better prepared using conventional weaponry and reaper based weapons.
The thing is if Saren were captured Reaper indoctrination would force Saren to commit suicide. Much like Rana Thanoptis if you don't kill her on Virmire which she commits suicide after being arrested for a bombing of an Asari research complex which killed not only researchers and innocent bystanders but military command personnel that were visiting the complex this happens during Mass Effect 3. Her drive for the attack was that she was foretold the ascension of the Asari and that anyone fighting the Reapers had to die. This was due to her role in researching Sovreign for Saren during the events of Mass Effect in which she became indoctrinated. However, this attack occurs even if you kill her just the mail message will not mention her name if she was killed instead it being a unnamed Asari.
One of the most interesting idea i had in mind is what if the first contact war isn't with turians?
The premise of that war of course, mass effect game
But humans first contact war against krogan? Batarians? Rachni? Geth? How would that change
my one problem is that it requires the asari councilor to believe that the beacon on Thessia was relevant to shepard’s claim *and* urgent *and* couldnt be unlocked by the Asari
they were already studying that exact beacon, and its revealed exactly how much of a foux pax it is to not reveal a beacon when found.
its be diplomatic suicide for the Asari nation
I believe the earliest she could realistically be convinced is ME2, if shepard just recorded his interaction with Harbinger at any point.
Honestly if Shep wore a body cam the council would probably back him so fast
I replayed Thessia a few months ago and I think that the VI only tells us all of this, because Shepard received the Cipher on Feros and is perceived as a Prothean. Maybe the Asari didn't get all the information about the Reapers. Still plot convenience
The only thing that would have changed really is the motivations of the characters rather than the actual games. Changing that alone could have drastically changed how the games felt. Because if we follow that logic Shepard still dies, likely Cerberus gets involved because Shepard is the vanguard for this massive movement as they know. Also given that if they believed him they would likely have someone confirm the Visions from the Beacon and made sure a few important people knew about it - having some Asari meld with him to see what the Visions are. A matriarch perhaps, someone more experienced than Liara.
But the thing is Mass Effect 2 would start off pretty much on point, only differences here would be the motivations of the different groups. I would see Cerberus beefing up the Alliance from inside in order to prepare them for their survival because that is what their purpose is to ensure that humanity is ready for the threat that is to come. I would see Cerberus acting both in its interests and humanities, but in a way also using this as an opportunity to undermine the Council and elevate mankind. I would see that they would use Shepard as a sort of poster child for their movements and hint towards it. In fact, any talk about the Reaper threat not being taken seriously is the Illusive Man actually using a political ploy to undermine the Council’s efforts.
But one thing that would change I think is that Cerberus itself would become an enemy in the end rather than the Collectors. That after taking over or destroying the Collector Base Cerberus itself would become a threat to them and needed to be fought and pushed back. Because of this it opens up the End Game content that comes later. Such as Project Overlord, Firewalker, and other operations meant to undermine Cerberus who are slowly building up power that is a danger. What we do in the game is build Cerberus up and make them stronger, afterwards we have to tear them down as they now become a threat as their influence and power grows.
This can lead into major changes for Three, as we could have had it that if we debilitating Cerberus it affected our opening mission and resulted in heavier casualties and losses. While if we didn’t undermine them we get off with a bloody nose, and are still fighting strong for the time being. Those kinds of choices would greatly affect the story. Because it shows that trying to do good and topple power hungry tyrants doesn’t always means things will go well in the long run. It could also lead to deeper character dynamics as well as Cerberus personnel can turn on your after the Collector Base, or even Join you depending on what you do.
Pause let's take a moment to realize the Prothean beacon on thessia stated it couldn't divulge information about the catalyst until the crucible was completed. With that being said maybe there were other checkpoints that needed to be reached before it divulged information. Just a thought. Mind you as the dominant force in the galaxy in their time, the probably felt a divided galaxy would fair any better than they did. So for the Thessian VI to even divulge the information it did to Shepard maybe a species needed to have similar qualities as them.
As far as the councilor goes, in truth throughout the whole series, (Andromeda included) never met a Councilor I would trust to represent me. However as far as the Asari councilor goes this particular sin may not be on her. Just because she knew about it doesn't mean she herself studied it there for her deliberations in regards to the reapers were not as informed as they could be. To be honest, while I personally would've looked into whatever I could in order to find out about the reapers (particularly after the FIRST assault on the citadel) i understand the skepticism of not believing a synthetic race capable of wiping out a civilization and then leaving no trace behind at all is hard to believe. IF you think of them as advanced organics. No matter how meticulous an organic life maybe no matter how long lived they are no one would put in that much effort. A machine would though and ultimately that's where the council failed.
The Asari as a whole however should be booted from the council if not from citadel space entirely. Too many times have they been met with a challenge and failed. As the quote unquote most advanced species in the galaxy they failed at every trial. Shepard said it best in citadel expansion in ME3. They failed at the Rachni wars, they failed during the Krogan rebellion, they failed to broker peace before hostilities during the first contact War. They failed during the battle with Sovereign. The Asari have proved to me that they are not up to the task of leading themselves let alone others boot them.
While individuals may be special, that is to be said about every race. In the only council race that lives up to its name generally are the salarians.
So the common consensus is Asari, most advanced. Turian, strongest army. Salarians, the smartest species. (Corrct me if I'm wrong) The Turians may have the largest fleet in the galaxy but still weren't able to hold the reapers back lets say like the Krogan were. Let's also not forget the Turians couldn't finish of the Rachni either without the Krogan. He'll the Turians couldn't finish off the Krogan either without the Salarians. The Asari have a whole century to learn as much as they can and if you dedicated your life to learn the most knowledge possible then yes asari would be the most advanced race but ultimately they don't but the Salarians do. As a collective unit the salarians work towards being intelligent or at least the smartest person in the room. So in truth the most ideal council would probably a krogan salarian quarian Volus council. Krogen are for war, Quarians are just too resourceful to not be there, salrians for the advancements, and Volus for their financial capabilities.
Something else that isn't picked up by most people, that there was a second witness to Saren being on Eden Prime, the male Scientist you meet in the camp where the Beacon was stored. That plot hole always bothered me.
Ok but my question is why did they say the reapers were fake AFTER seeing Tali’s evidence? Benezia/saren specifically said they wanted to usher in the reapers return and that was straight from eden prime, nobody on the council even denied it, but later on they’ll say “nope reapers can’t be real.”
Honestly I want to say it was denial but I dunno. Maybe it was part denial, part bad writing
What's funny is how they grounded Shepard at first, then Sovereign came and Shepard rescued them. In their little speech at the end they even acknowledge Reapers but in the next game they're like "aH yEs ReApeRs"
Personally I want to know what would happen if Javik's pod was found early.
I saw some comments about the VI speaking prothean and Shepard not being able to understand it because he had not received the cipher. Now assuming that the beacon and the VI would have been somehow activated even without the cipher: *Vigil, the prothean VI on Ilos was able to quickly adapt to the language Shepard and his/her companions were speaking and spoke that instead of the prothean language* so it's completely possible that after a short while the VI on Thessia would have done the same.
They don't know what a reaper is at the time of the matriarch audio message and Shepard at the time understood nothing from the vision giving Saren time to react to the council's actions and he could tell the reapers start moving to the Barbarian relay sooner before it could be discovered where citadel agents were not welcome leading to a similar time frame of agents getting info on their relay.
Also the second Sheperd mentioned Reapers, that should have put ever high level scientist on high alert...
I imagine if the council believed sheperd and began preparing for the reaper invasion a lot more publicly then the reapers would have adjusted tactics, they still had the collectors in the galaxy after losing Soverign and its worth noting that after the attack on the citadel the citadel races were spending a great deal of time and effort rebuilding. Perhaps the collectors would instigate a shadow war against the council races trying to stymie their attempts to build up a military response for the inevitable reaper invasion.
Not to mention the repears are far from mindless, its heavily implied they caused the Rachni to go to war with the rest of the galaxy so perhaps through the collectors they would instigate further wars such as from the Batarians or Krogan against the wider galaxy.
Its a fun idea to consider though, I recall another of what if Sheperd had been revived by a group different to Cerberus, perhaps the Shadow broker (since he knew about the reaper threat perhaps he'd need sheperd to prevent their return (even if it was just to save his own skin)
What if Saren broke free of indoctination, or Cerberus was an ally in Mass Effect 3...
I thought in ME3 it was said that since shep had 1st proth beacon but more importantly the cipher from the thorien making the thesia artifact register him/her as prothian that made it work.
You make the new mass effect feeling better. It’s gonna be years right? Til the next one comes out but I have hopes from your content bro 💪🏽
Great video, man! I think if the council had backed Shepard, the ending of ME1 would have played out differently, and the entirety of ME3 would be completely different. If Shepard had the backing of the council, the crucible would've already been built by ME3. But I think that would make Cerberus the central antagonist in that scenario, since the illusive man would probably do his utmost to have full control over the crucible, and try to control the reapers to assert human dominance. It would be, pretty much, a different story entirely.
I disagree that the council made any sense after Eden Prime. How would a lowly dock worker be able to know or describe two of the councils top secret spies? How would he know their names?
While the dock worker wouldn't be irrefutable proof, it should've at least be enough to bring in saren for questioning for multiple reasons.
1. Nihluis dropping his guard during a COMBAT MISSION would not happen around a stranger.
2. Why else would a DOCK WORKER on a FRINGE COLONY claim to see a trusted spectre kill another spectre during a geth attack.
3. Completely disregarding his claims due to "trauma" is a major mistake in any investigation.
To think that the entire galaxy would have been screwed if it wasn't for that one lazy dock worker on Eden Prime lol.
Maybe it is because
The Turian counsellor still hate humans because of the first contact war
The Asari counsellor underestimate the situation and want to play save with supporting Turian decision. Because when decide, she always look at Turian Counsellor
The Salarian only believe in what their discover and the didn't believe something exists that they cannot explain
TLDR:
The council's decisions are more understandable if you look at it from a political angle, but (if they survive) their actions make less and less sense as the story progresses to varying degrees on various topics.
I feel that people are too hard on the council, for reasons that are understandable; however, if you withdraw yourself from the perspective of Shepard there is some room to understand where they are coming from.
First and foremost, remember that you are telling the three most powerful governments to go nuclear here. To set aside all their problems/rivalries and come together to fight a common foe. Which I feel can be, if we try to understand their position, something we can sympathize with a bit here as plausible behavior. Not that I would condone this behavior by any means.
There is another side of this, which is the politics. Now I'm not entirely certain how each government orients their systems of power and how they handle transfers of power, but a constant remains that in order to hold power you need the support of others. Whether that is a voter base or a few generals, the optics must be played. Thus, we come to a short-term vs long term solution. Do I as a politician jeopardize my entire career and livelihood on the off chance that a single spectre is correct about what would otherwise be considered a zany conspiracy theory?
That is why evidence is crucial. For people that state that they should have believed the reapers would come for them due to the Matriarch's comments, well it is the same eyewitness problem for starters. (Yes, the matriarch has more respect to her name but an eyewitness is not the best testimony even in the best of times.) Then there is this notion that the council believes that Saren is running a cult and have a strange mythology to which they idolize the reapers (him and the geth) If I recall correctly. Now this does make sense as a narrative; furthermore, it would explain why they would dismiss her claims as the ravings of a cultist.
Then finally we have the reactions of time after the events of the first game. Here I feel it is a bit of a stretch if the same council members are still alive, for them to still ignore you. Like I get that they would be distrustful of Cerberus, (I would be too,) but they could use the attack as a means to rally people and politics towards unity and begin working on the infrastructure to have a response, even if tepid. It is somewhat plausible but also strange. (Again, this would probably harken back to politics and not due to the personal feelings of the councilors.
Finally, we have the third game, which should be similar to the second game to be honest. I feel having Shepard grounded despite backstabbing Cerberus every opportunity that you got is a bit silly. I get that the Council won't know everything that you were doing in detail, but you would at least think that they would know about some highlights. I think an honorably removing the spectre status makes sense. You could then just have Shepard going around and doing political engagements like rallies etc. Alternatively, if you supported Cerberus, you would have been grounded, (and maybe have earth slightly better off due to Shepard's involvement in supporting Earth's defenses [could also have a thing where Cerberus was working with Shepard to do things] but I digress.)
See the funny thing is the events of mass effect 3 could have heavily changed simply by a choice the illusive man and EDI being I’m sure any upgrade the Normandy got it was sent to the illusive man. With blueprints of how to build them, he was a smart man, honestly if this game was a bit more realistic the Illusive man would have had a large shadow company that could have been called star defense, or anything like that with contracts to build massive defenses platforms around human colonies loaded with modified scaled back up Thanix Cannon, even in the lore the Thanix cannon can be fired in five seconds and could be placed on most fighters or frigates, but that raised some questions is why did the turian people not starts adding them to their own ships? Yes the have one of the largest fleets and it would have been very expansive but they could have added them to the newer larger ships since they already had to be rebuilt. Just the games could have gone better but because mass effect trilogy was not designed together lore wise we got what we got, I’m just glad it was not worse.
Hey so I just had a thought about ME4, what if the new Shepard is the clone from the DLC? I haven't heard that theory yet, also because this is the most recent video I thought it would be the best way to mention it, but, I should go
you'll drive yourself crazy thinking of what ifs like this.
My big question for ME3 was: why didn't the Reapers make a beeline to the citadel the instant they made it onto the galaxy? Just one capital ship was needed to take control of the systems, and by doing so they could have shut down the relay network and ended the organic's ability to fight back. The "war" would have been over right then and there.
One detail that is overlooked here is that Shepard still needed to completely receive the cipher in order to understand the prothean vi. So the course of action would have still had to stayed the same in ME 1, albeit with some different motivations I suppose (mainly knowing a little more of what they actually were looking for). ME 2 however would have been completely different since knowing what the thessian vi would tell them, there’s no chance Shepard is sent to hunt geth in the terminus systems. The second game probably would have to be more focused on some of the diplomatic leg work that’s done in the beginning of ME3.
Except the VI on Ilos spoke english, after your companion wonders how they can understand the VI, it stated that it had been monitoring their conversation for some time and was able to learn the speech patterns to talk in their preferred language instead of prothean.
The thing is, it's realistic how they act because they're politicians. Why believe there's a bigger threat out there other than say, the Terminus gangs or the Batarians or the Krogan. The sheer fact that they don't believe Shepard shows the short sightedness and idiocy of politicians no matter what side of the spectrum they're on, but they still have a reason not to listen because the Reapers seem like a fairy tale to anyone outside the Normandy crew because nobody else has seen or heard of them. Maybe if the Shadow Broker stepped forward there would be a different outcome.
Saren using the idea of Reapers to control the Geth makes sense if you look at it from their view compared to million year old AIs that destroyed an ancient race that ruled the galaxy. It's like us hearing someone say Aliens wiped out the Dinosaurs. This is why Mass Effect is so good because yes, they were wrong not to listen to Shepard, it makes sense as to why they didn't.
The damn council chamber is a reaper star child ai bull sh!t that is giving out probably low level reaper mind control would make sense
I strongly doubt the councils support would've changed ME3 that much.
Captain Andersons put it best… It scares them they don’t wanna believe it
A big hole in your story is that the Collectors aren't found out to be Reaper pawns until halfway through ME2, so they would likely be reporting to Harbinger the construction of the Catalyst and would likely speed up the Reaper Arrival, which would lead to no curing of the genophage, the Rachni wouldn't have time to recover if you spared the queen in ME1, etc. Hell most of ME2 probably wouldn't have even happened.
"Ah yes... supporting Shepard in his fight against the Reapers. We have dismissed that claim !"
The eyewitness is some random dockworker, yes, but that proves the point. How would he know the name Saren? There are so many Turians in the galaxy and Eden Prime is a human colony, so I doubt many would know many Turians. Nihlus was killed, so it's bound to have been by someone strong, and he had to have been caught off-guard being a Spectre, they should be chosen for a reason. They're the most capable agents in the known universe for the council to utilize. So that dockworker's eyewitness account should have been received as far more legitimate evidence than it was.
How well known would the names of Turian Spectres be to the average human colonist? Because that dock-worker called out Saren the suspiciously robot-armed Spectre by name. He even knew Nihlus' name, and I can't imagine the Spec Ops soldier in the middle of a war-zone would run around shouting his name out loud. So either that this random human had seen Nihlus' name in the news or something so often that he could recognize him by sight and, instead of reporting what he actually saw, decided to claim that a Turian named Saren killed him. Because that's what a traumatized civilian would do in the immediate aftermath of an attack: Run a smear campaign against a vaguely known political enemy of his government.
the councillor probably didn't know about the VI
Not actually first mission as squad leader, first mission with the Normandy, as XO
They couldn't apply the Prothean VI without the Cipher and Shepard.
I feel like other than ME3, the Council doesn't matter. I always thought saving them would open up new jobs to complete for them in ME2 but I guess not.
everyone knows asari can bond and join minds with others right? why didn’t the asari councillor join minds with shepard to see that warnings like liara did? boom problems solved, fleets built defensive bases built galaxy united reapers defeated
Idk if it would have shook out like you think. It's clear the reapers control a lot of what goes on in the galaxy. They instigated the Rachni War and the Geth attack. If the asari councilor did sound the alarm in the first game I think the reapers would have expedited their time table and just flooded thru the Alpha Relay. Instead of using the collectors to abduct humans in the second game. I don't think the galaxy would've had enough time to build up it's forces. The reapers thrived on sowing discontent between species so they didn't have to face a unified galaxy during the harvest. The moment the galaxy started working together the reapers would have noticed and attacked.
If they had listened in ME1, we probably wouldn't have needed a trilogy of games.
He would have still found a reason to hang up on them though
It wouldn’t have mattered as ultimately the council is beholden to the individual governments they represents have the final say as shown in ME3.
There’s one hole in this therory he wasn’t recognised as a prothean because of the Becon but because of cipher gained after feros pushing events back a bit at best.
me1 is my favorite mass effect, the worldbuilding here is just amazing
feel like 2 and 3 barely added to this or even took away from this a bit
like how in me1 the councilors are named in the subtitles, in me2 and 3 they are just called asari councilor or turian councilor
Oh murder squids definitely better than my killer Calamari
The Thanix Cannon is based on Sovereign's main weapon it's not a piece of Sovereign.
You forgot something important:
Shepard understood Thesia vi due to the cypher he got in ferous.
remember, vigil could understand non-prothean language after listening to the team talk for a few minutes simply based on language patterns, so that wasn't tied to the cipher so why would the thessia vi not be capable of that.
@@gamesandglory1648
Language...not a becon
He wouldn't be able to fully activate it unless he has the cypher to understand fully protean
In the end, I don't think it'd make much difference whether the Council backed Shepard or not. Any peparations they did wouldn't matter much without the Crucible and the Catalyst.
The Crucible might even not be discovered if Hackett ahdn't grown frustrated with developments in that front and recruited Liara. If he thought the matter was well in hand, he might not been desperate enough.
The Tessia VI is more interesting. Since it activated by Shepard or Javik's presence - for the first time, as it had no idea of how it had been dormant - she didn't know much of it's significance. It's perfectly possible that she thought it was simply a beacon (the last one the Council knew of) and pointed it to Shepard as a Hail Mary move, since Tessia was about to be overrun.
For some time now I thought that the Council came to privately believe in te Reaper threat by the end of ME1, but felt counterproductive to aknowledge it, choosing instead to make whatever preparations in secret. It WOULD explain why they were so adamant in denying even the possibility of their existence.
What was too stupid of their part was not to send any spectre into the Terminus Systems to hunt down Sarren. They might have come to (wrongly) believe that Shepard was too blunt an instrument, but not to send anybody?
Instead they relied into a (costly) defensive move, in blockading access to the Citadel. Ask historians how that worked for the French in the Maginot Line or the Chinese in the Great Wall.
Next video: what if my parents loved and supported me?
Council backing Shepard would have been kinda silly, he really did have nothing. His frustration that they didn't back him was outlandish, not their refusal to support. (At the begining of ME1)
what is really weird, isnt shepard like high tech gear? dont have a body camera or something? can't the Asari Councel just check Shepard memory or the other people? Like she must know about the Asari secrets, right?
What if earth had opened the relay in the year 2740 rather than 2140
Great video. I believe you're right about the trilogy not happening.. Or perhaps going in another direction as lookingback over the original trilogies books based upon Sanders, Anderson, Saren backgrounds, I believe it's fair to assume much has been covered up with the reports of Graysons story.. It would seem someone obviously knew way more than they were letting on...
Don't forget that Sovereign was Reaper's agent that observed the state of galaxy all this time. If it noticed something happening wrong way and even threatening the Reapers - their invasion would happened much earlier.
Also the Citadel archives in ME3 "Citadel" DLC clearly shows that the Council accepted the probability that Reapers are not a myth, but classified it and made only Specters (and may be some other very high officials) allowed to know it.
Ah yes, "non-frustrating councilors", we have dismissed that claim
Ah yes, "council with a brain", we have dismissed that claim
Well the Asari could not have backed Shep openly, after all the Asari kept Prothean tech for themselves in secret. Still, you could have built a trilogy there:
-ME1 focused on Saren+Sovereign
-ME2 focused on the political machinations of the various races
-ME3: Harbinger et al show up and you fight them with whatever coalition you built in the previous game
Granted if you royally screw up in ME2 ME3 would suck big time but ehy, having Harbinger win and the Cycle continue would still be an ending
I feel like the following, they wouldn't exactly back up Shepard after the evidence about the Reapers right away. I feel like with the Asari counselor with the artifact it was like a Myth. So no to the Reapers to that area. I feel like maybe after Vimire they would consider building up a force to prevent a Geth invasion. I just find it hard to believe about not believing the Reaper when the Reaper invade the Citadel. That should really be changed up to be honest. But I would prefer it like they build up an army, but not to say it's to fight the Reaper, but the Geth for the public, but in the background it is actually for the Reapers. That would make a bit more sense to be honest. Also with how the Collectors were a big threat, it should have been addressed as an issue too.
I want to know what makes the council believe that the Reapers aren't real and Saren was just so charming that he could convince not only Benezia (A Wise Matriarch with seemingly substantial political clout) but the Geth as well (An advanced race of sapient AI) that the reapers do exist, and that Sovereign was one of them, despite the fact that the Geth MADE Sovereign according to the council.
It always bugged that when the Reapers arrive in full force Shepard never gets to call out the Council & go on a rant for never believing or helping. Then later not go off on the Asari Councilor
Would that have helped?
@@Dragon_Lair Would it have helped - no. Would have felt good after they kept denying it, refusing to help, & draggin Shepard’s name through the dirt - yea 😅
Yeah, that what I had always wondered about.
But didn’t they actually realise after sardine was identified as going rouge as video evidence found in the citadel dlc seem to match the timeline when he returned in me2 , but given his ambiguous connection to a known terrorist group, would make many a suspicious actions by joining
Someone should do if System alliance was Prussian oriented (with Kaiser's cabinet, work ethic and military ideals)... they would rival Prothean Empire at peak
If the council supported shepard, they would still exist.
I never had problems with the first interaction. It's like USA sanctioning an invasion on the words of single person. Oh wait....
TL;DR: the trilogy would have been several hours shorter
I feel like you're scratching the surface..... I'm only going to mention humanity here. I think humanity in general, would be more prepared than all of the other races combined.
Sorry, just the idea of the reapers getting basically spawn-camped by the crucible the second they enter the galaxy just seems too funny.
Yeah get the asari council member to read shepards mind then she can show the other council members what she saw.
Revealing that the Asari have withheld information for millenia would bring an amount of conflict between races.
And that just be one of many problems.