Combustor Liners IV : Annular from T58
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 5 ก.ค. 2024
- Today we compare two different combustor liners for our jet boat race engine. What was in the engine that burned up its hot section was quite worn and ready for replacement.
We have a liner from a CT58 which has very few hours on it. The CT58 was designed to carry passengers in civil aviation, so that may be why it just seems to be more heavily built.
We are going to race it ! - ยานยนต์และพาหนะ
haha, love that you guys listen to classical music in the workshop :P
Thank you for taking time to make these videos - especially this one, as you had to re-shoot it. Really interesting look into the specifics of these engines.
I used to be crew chief on Marine Sikorsky CH-53 helicopter in 1967 (ancient viewer). Before becoming the crew chief, one only had to pass a rudimentary test and the magic wand was waved. After all these years, I have only recently chanced upon your site and was amazed at how little I knew about the turbine engine. I became absorbed in your great presentations and think I have watched them all and now am watching them a second time. I thank you so much for taking time to do this.
Excellent. As usual answering questions I didn't know I had.
Exactly what I was thinking :D
These are great video presentations, especially for an old man that is not associated with jet engines in any way, but was in the air force and fell in love with aircraft after seeing both the Thunderbirds and the BlueAngels. I continue watching...............
I can't believe I found this on TH-cam I'm a great fan of aviation mostly jet turbine .The detail of each part is awesome and very educational still looking through the tutorials and find something interesting in each one please keep it up
Another super video Thanks jay
Love the Beethoven 6th in the background
TH-cam has removed some of my videos in the past for containing "other creators' content", so I'm careful to not include music. Any noises you may have heard in the background that may have sounded like music must simply be the chance rhythmic clanging of unsecured metal parts...
Ah.. of course , I hear it correctly now :)
I knew a smart, cultured guy like you would understand.
it's classical stomp (that musical group) in there. lol. that would be a fun place to work.
June 6th is d-day. As you can see from my avatar in a turbine fanatic. I love hydroplanes and tried to build a scale one 15 years ago but was told it was impossible. I guess an axial turbine was a little complicated but finally micro turbines are available. Hydroplanes use Lycoming T55's used in the CH-47 Chinook. Your the first person to explain how in the world you get power out through a transmission. I always thought there was no way you could grab the power of the turbine through the main shaft and send it out to be usable power. So thanks for the theory and thanks for the great break down videos. I'd live to have a starfighter or f4 phantom blade on my wall as the phantom was one of the coolest planes of the last century. Thanks for the videos!
Great video...intresting to see the evolution of design of the combustor!
Again an excellent informative video as usual.. Thank you for sharing and I also like the heavy duty stuff ... =)
Another informative video. I'm curious about exotic metals used in the engines. I try to listen to hear if things are titanium, or any other alloy. I find the exotics and alloys interesting. I'd love to hear or see a little more on interesting metals and/or their application in the engines. You do your industry a great service. Thanks!
cheers man, really good info and interesting too
Ah. Okay I got I will be sure to go and study that! Thanks for your time.
Thanks for the insight!
Really he has done gr8 job..
hi Jay I really appreciate your knowledge and your gift in teaching about turbine engine's, I work at GE aviation lynn ma. Ps.... I assemble the combustion for the T58 AKA the pineapple
Thank you!
Another great video!! Is the old combuster case going to be melted and recycled?
Thank you AgentJayZ--This stuff is interesting ,i am a builder,master painter,i do electrical .The big thing i have worked on is Time an gravity Physics -If you want to vary time/gravity you vary the fields of the atoms /mass . That's how you build fast machines like the top secret TR-3B .
Im curious of how the fuel connections to the fuel manifold are made, could you present that Jay? I see a difference in nozzle design, as you said, some for startup?Very nice improvement in design! interesting how an engine evolves over time! The PT6 combustor is held/located by the fuel nozzles more or less. Great as always, love the classical too! Cheers!
Thanks !
Hey Jay, I got a question to the fuel nozzles and the fuel lines. As you showed us before, in most of the combustion liners, there are little holes right around the fuel nozzles to create a low velocity zone where the flame burns.
Are there similar holes or ways for the compressed air to create such a low-velocity zone in the combustor of the T58?
Thank you so much for all informations ..but what about the materials that used to made the combustor chamber ..
JayZ... If you keep this up, I might become smart... :o) Thanks so much!
Whoa! Are those fuel lines connected with compression fittings?
Another great videos. Thanks for what you are doing.
I have a question: In a typical jet engine while cruising, when fuel is injected, what is its pressure of injection. assuming a pressure swirl type of injector
The pressure of the fuel needs to be equal to the air pressure inside the combustor, plus an amount necessary to spray the fuel in a mist into that air.
And here's where it gets complicated: the compressor discharge pressure, or CDP, which is what pushes the air into the combustor, is proportional to rpm.
So to increase power, the fuel has to have the margin of its pressure above CDP increased, and then kept at that "bonus" as the CDP increases with rpm.
So, to answer your question, it depends on what you call cruise, and on what engine you are running.
Max CDP in a T58 is about 120 psig, At max power, fuel pressure might be about 600 psig.
In a modern airliner, like a 787, max CDP is around 600psig, and max fuel pressure in un-credible !
AgentJayZ This is interesting, in an Industrial GE MS7001EA is almost the same ratio between CDP and main fuel pump discharge pressure (when using diesel)...
Thanks for your videos, I really enjoy them! I have a question about the injectors... On other engines that you have shown they were easily accessible, so I guessed that they needed service after some time. I don't see that they can be serviced in this engine at least until a complete overhaul. How's that? Thanks!
Being designed as a helicopter engine, it is designed to be completely overhauled after completing a cycle of service. The fuel nozzles are cleaned at that time
Great detail there; you didn't show the nozzles during the "T-58" series of videos. Thanks for sharing!
DD
thanks
Hi!! AgentJayZ thanks for your videos. I noticed some changes between the injectors some of them have 3 slots and some others dont. Are those small slots air passages ?? It seems to me that for the new liner all the injectors are the same, but in the old one they apear to be staged between the sloted and the unsloted ones. In 8:57 this diference can be seen. I think that in the new one all the nozzles have 3 slots. Am I right ?? I cant express how much I admire your job.
wow Thanx for another great vid sir!
I was wondering.. What is the front fan made of?
Fan is a word with a technical meaning in the world of gas turbine engines. There are no fans in this video.
The T58, the RR Avon, the Orenda 14, the Orenda OTF-3, the LM500, the Allison 501, and the RR Olympus are all engines that do not have a fan.
So I'm not sure which fan you are referring to .
ummm I was referring to the great big front thingy found on big commercial airliner engines. But thanks to your other videos i've found out that they can be made out of titanium!
Hey could you explain variable staters. Like why they would need to change "pitch" and do you still sell turbine blades for decoration?
Hi JayZ. Thanx for another interesting video. Are you working in other shops than S&S? It seems like u are around alot.
Jet City Turbines does not have a permanent home at the moment. I am working at several shops around town.
I am lucky to be allowed to use the facilities of Compression Technology, Maddex Turbines, and S&S Turbines , all in Fort St. John.
Then there's the Charlie Lake Jet Boat Performance Center...
When I overhaul my much less sexy kerosene burning central heating burner unit I see the same swirler vanes and oddly a reddish purple powdered deposit similar to that which I see in some of your jet Fuel units.
I also have to change the oil nozzles pretty much each season as they deteriorate quite quickly and affect efficiency and seemingly the lifespan of the baffles. Mine are brass or mild steel. Do the jet versions wear swiftly also and, if so, can it affect flame shape and efficiency?
Have you got any videos of a JT8D?
So were you able to identify what caused the engine fire in the first place? I remember that you initially suspected compressor damage but didn't find any.
Could it have been the wear or damage to the combustor liner that caused the engine fire?
¿que material estan hechos esos artefactos? gracias.
Are both. from aircraft engines or is the “new” one from a industrial engine ? What is the weight difference between the two engines when completely assembled ? Which one is the newer series engine ?
The new version is a lot better than the old one. The washers for the nozzles are better for sealing, they have like a retaining ring, thefore they are more secured to the liner. Noiw was able to see that ratchet, I wonder where my went too. My tools are Snap-On and Mac. Very expensive tools, you think?
Nice music. :)
I've had a specific question about the turbine section, why is the shape outlet a smaller to bigger opening? Doesn't that slow down the air is stead of it being a bigger to smaller opening?
The only thing you can do is actually two things;
1) recognize that subsonic aerodynamics are counterintuitive
2) learn about subsonic aerodynamics from whatever source you choose
Is that the Beethoven's 6th playing in the background?
Hi, it's nice work with this music! The only thing is many guys shop don't like it! They told it is music for super markets!
Hi Jay, you mention the combustor had damage not only from heat, but vibration?
Was that just when the free power turbine failed or from the boat pounding on the water or something else?
Cheers Ian....
The vibration is caused by the operation of the engine, and over long periods of time, things wear at the points of contact with other things.
Combustor liners are particularly subject to this type of wear because they are not rigidly attached to anything. They expand and contract a great deal due to the temperature extremes they experience in operation.
Do you think these poor little engines receive more wear being used in jetboats, as opposed to a Sea King or similar applications?
Hey Jay, Another quite excellent vid! So I am curious, from the other cans you have shown us the t58 seems quite different in that the nozzles don't seem to inject the fuel into a large cavity and then the hot gas exits into the inlet guide vanes. Could you please go into a bit more detail. Cheers
This combustor parforms exactly like any other annular one, like from the LM2500, or the LM500.
Inlet guide vanes is a term used for the engine inlet to the compressor. Turbine inlet guide vanes would be correct, but nobody calls them that. I've always heard them be called Turbine nozzles.
AgentJayZ
Hey Jay, Thanks for the reply! I had to go back and watch Combustion Liners III to make sense of all this. Now I understand what the big hole in the middle is for! ( Sheesh I feel dense at times ). Once again, thanks for all your hard work in putting together these quite excellent and instructive videos. Thanks also for helping increase my vocabulary! Best regards.
How's that Iroquois coming? I would give my left ball to see that run or be involved with it in any way.
Is this an engine rebuild or recreation? It seemed like there was very little good stuff left in the race engine and all the good things came from the junk engines. Is this really a case of rebuilding the race engine or are you rebuilding a junk engine to replace it or are you creating a frankenstein engine?
Woo, all caught up! So here's a question: do you think that in the last few years you've shown us enough that someone such as myself--technically literate and mechanically competent but with no prior experience with turbine engines--could do what you're doing in this series--rebuild a burnt out T58 with a supply of spare parts?
Obviously one would need the overhaul manual, parts catalog, probably somewhere in the 5-to-6-figures worth of semi-to-very-specialized tools, and a lot of patience--not to mention a few scrap T58's... or would all the little details you haven't shown us lead to almost certain failure?
Thanks, and congrats on 300 videos; great work!
Well, I've told you some interesting stories, and occasionally even explained how the words go together to mean things... but I haven't shown you how to spell, or even how to form the letters.
But maybe...I guess it depends on how bad you want it. Just like anything.
Interesting analogy; that's about what I figured. Best not to go blowing the mid-life-crisis budget just yet, then. ;) Maybe sometime soon, though, I'll be able to make it up to FSJ and see how you pros do it.
Another great video,I find the combustor chambers fascinating. What type of metal are they made of, they are in remarkable shape for their age. There doesn't appear to be any rust, even after sitting in a boneyard and I suspect the heat would burn off a common zinc plating.
They are made out of a high-nickel alloy. Similar to Inconel, but probably a newer recipe. The stuff doesn't rust.
Hi Jay, thanks for the video. I'm not sure if this question was asked before... But regaring your comment in the previous video 'Bad News, Good News with a T58' about the way you win races, is there any possibility to 'crank up' the engine in order to increase the chances of winning because of a bigger/better power output (if ever wanted with a sturdier drivesystem)? For example by modifying the combustor liner or the fuelsystem? Or is it absolutely out of the question, despite the fact that winning = taking risks?
Racing is a complicated business. Power does not equal victory. Like many people I talk to, it appears you have discounted the driver too much in the equation.
Also, you trade reliability for power.
Remember, we're not modifying a slant six out of an old Valiant to go drag racing.
We are using a military helicopter engine to power a boat.
Being a military helicopter engine, the T58 is designed to operate in a similar power regime to what we subject it to in racing, except nobody is shooting at us.
And finally, if this was a modified car engine, it would weigh 200 lbs more, and at 1200 Hp, would have a service life of about 10 hours.
The T58 at 1200 Hp, weighs 350 lbs, and has a service interval of 400 hours.
Sure, I can get you more power, but you need to pay up front.
AgentJayZ Well, I'm sure bad racingskills have a bigger effect on the final result, rather than a cranked up engine :) But haven't you ever tried another fueltype instead of the standard one? I thought I remember you saying somewhere that jet-engines consume anything that burns (something like that). So, I imagine that in jetboatracing a better throttleresponse (with another type of fuel) is more preferable than in helicopter operation, as far as there is some progress to make off course.
Oh, and thanks for your elaborate answer up here.
FastFerry1975 Throttle response in not affected by fuel type... and helicopters have instant throttle response. A ride in one of these boats will tell you there is no lag.
As with many people, you are letting your imagination dictate your assumptions.
I try to supply the information, but I can't make anybody use it.
AgentJayZ Jay, I really think I need a ride in one of the boats to be convinced of the power of these engines :P
But anyway... thanks for your reply!
What is the combuster made of
Thanks for taking the time to rerecord the video! Now, in an earlier video you said modern engines have one continous 360 degree combustor liner instead of individual "cans" for better heat distribution (if I understood right, that is). Is this an example of that, or does modern combustors have a different design?
Yes, that is a fairly modern annular combustor. They will all vary in design detail from engine to engine but the basic concept an construction is more or less the same. Annular combustors actually aren't even modern or "new". Some of the very first jets, the German Jumo's & BMWs were annular combusted, generally old small engines like the Westinghouse J30 were as well.
mytmousemalibu Yes. I guess it would be more accurate to say that the annular combustor is a design used by all modern high-tech, high efficiency gas turbine engines, even though it in itself is not a new design.
That takes a lot of wind though...
AgentJayZ Haha, ya! More or less, gone with the wind the cannular system has gone in modern production far as I know. Compactness and packaging playing a hand too. Everything now is so focused on high efficiency, even APU's. Our new C Series airliner, powered by the P&W P1500G geared turbofan is about as modern as they come. I don't know what its pressure ratio is but I can see it by the profile of the core engine casing, it squeezes down a lot! Pretty small annular combustor, judging again from outside case dimensions. 12:1 bypass, low fan speed, Approx making 24,000lbs of thrust. Very quiet too!
What does the cheese grader pattern do?
make sure you can't fit a .001" under those manifolds...
what is the weight difference?
What two things are you comparing?
AgentJayZ sorry, the entirety of the two units. the combustion liners.
The annular liner is lighter by a few pounds, but that's not what really matters. The annular combustor is more efficient, and able to handle much more fuel... so able to make more power in the same volume of space. It is the way all modern engines do it.
AgentJayZ okay. I figured it was a bit heavier, wasn't sure how it would affect performance but I assumed it was insignificant. so it balanced out or is it actually a bit better?
AgentJayZ just to be sure, I was taking about the burned up liner compared with its heavier duty replacement liner. that's what I wanted to know the difference in weight about. sorry for being unclear.
Thats an unwilling video assistant, eh?
Try robust fit a comparator.
stupid question. All the bolts get lock wire, but i cant see any lock wire on hose fittings. do fuel and oil lines get secured with lock wire?