In SAC while in the Air Force I worked on the T58-3 & T58-3 in an overhaul facility, on the flight line, and in deployment in Vietnam. This brings back a lot of memories.
That was kinda sweet the way you went from kind of laughing at the results of this small catastrophe (don't we all do that at times?) to the sobering respect for this as a significant part of someone's emotional and financial life...
Oh wow, what a mess!. lotta scrap parts in that poor little thing! its interesting that people i talk to often expect that flames going through the turbine is a normal thing, and I have to explain that its usually one of 2 things they are seeing, an afterburner, or the immanent death of the engine!. i am not aware of any other reason to see flames out the exhaust of the engine post-startup
AgentJayZ - I Love watching your vids! I learn SO much! Although my interest in turbines is primarily aircraft you've opened my eyes to Jetboat racing. P.s. Charlie Lake ROCKS too! I lived near DC down the road in the early 80's on an Outfitters Ranch. Thanks for your work
The "working air" as you coined it was what I was trained in when we had a t-58 inside our class room. 75% was used for cooling and 25% for power. So in this engines case, for just a few seconds, it lost its compressed air..and fuel was being injected at the same fuel rate? That would cause the Nf temps to skyrocket. We never had a engine fire on our sikorsky Ch-3e. Only in one case when the ch-3e was in phase or storage for a long time, the pilot did not let the engine idle long enough on the flight line before taking off. He flew right back because he did not give the seals enough time to seal properly. I guess if the carbon seals do go dry for a long time they can be come to stiff and not seal properly?
This gives me nostalgia. The T-58 / Gnome. An engine that always fascinated me. Expensive, complex, old ... and wonderfully potent. It was the direct application of the experimental 10 stages NACA subsonic axial compressor. I remember that 20 years ago I had to set up a fuel control unit. I can not even remember what it was like. Of course. An all hydropneumatic nightmare!
Another great video Jay! You seem extra cheerful in this one, always nice to see a person cheerful at work! :) Sounds like you have those birds that sound like music in the shop again! ;) Take it easy and thanks again from the UK!
My next 2 guesses for the molten metal in the turbine..oil seal leak and fire or burner can failure loose flame holding power. (in addition to fuel regulator problem) I would think fuel regulator even at wide open would have limit to max use by the engine. Can't wait for next update.
I will be watching next videos of this engine. This repair will have to get many of us to see all the proccess. This is good repair due to fuel management, the engine received to much heat, and looks it will be expensive. Taking parts of another engine, it is money too. Thanks for bringing this knowledge to all.
AgentJayZ - Thanks again - I think I learn more from this video of what happened when things go wrong, than I did from most of the other videos dealing with the theory and concepts!!! An Amazing Video - THANKS FOR SHARING!
Technically that is untrue, but you are calling the layer of cooling air around the combustor liner "boundary layer air". The boundary layer has a very specific technical meaning, and it does not apply here. Or, and whatever you mean by components... the engine functions by having the hot gases most definitely impinge upon the turbine nozzles and blades. I absolutely consider those to be components.
@@AgentJayZ Only worked on T58 GE 8F for 20 years while in uniform. We did the complete overhaul. There is a boundary layer of cooling air that is always moving from fore to aft of the engine across the internal casings providing an insulation barrier from the hot gases impinging on them. My two cents.
This reminds me of something I saw once involving a TF-34 engine out an A-10. The A-10 has an auto engine start feature. There was a constraint that if you had a flame out, you had to wait about 2 minutes before trying to restart the engine so that everything inside the turbine section had time to cool down. Well, some big wig table jockey type was flying one of our A-10's and he had a flame out. He wasn't very familiar with the airplane and he tried doing a restart right away. As a result raw fuel came into direct contact with the hot turbine blades and turbine guide vanes. The raw fuel ignited and everything melted just like in Jay's video. I saw the engine disassembled afterwards and everything in the back looked like burnt toast. Just a simple mistake like that did about a half million dollars worth of damage to the engine. There were thousands of dollars worth of turbine wheels and stator vane assemblies reduced to worthless junk.
"big wig table jockey"? Horse racing? Cool story. Makes sense that fuel in that area would be a problem. I would figure the igniter would light the fuel before it hit the turbines during the start sequence. Maybe there is no igniter during the start after a flameout. Odd.
The guy flying the A-10 ("big wig table jockey" - I should have said "desk jockey") was a general who normally worked at the Air National Guard bureau. He normally flew nothing heavier and faster than a desk. Apparently he had been to A-10 flight school, but he had minimal time in the A-10 so that probably accounted for his very expensive mistake. What he did wrong was after a flame out, the pilot is supposed to pull the throttle all the way back to idle, then lift it up, and then move it back further over the idle stop and then all the way back into the off position. What he did instead was he pulled it back to idle and then he just left it there. That's why the engine immediately tried to restart itself. I was in avionics maintenance so I got the details about what happened second hand from a friend of mine who worked in the engine shop. What I remember him telling me was that the TF-34 used an annular combustor that ran super hot to increase fuel economy and so everything back in the turbine section operated at very high temperatures. All the turbine blades and stator vanes even had tiny passages drilled through them with lasers to allow cooling air to pass through them. What I remember him telling me was that everything in the turbine section operates so hot that if you try to do an immediate restart, residual heat being retained in the turbine blades and guide vanes is sufficient to ignite raw fuel that's being injected during the restart. That's why you are supposed to wait to do a restart. It's so that everything back there in the turbine section has a chance to cool down first. That's what I remember him telling me and that's all I can tell you.
I was comm/nav on A-10's for a year. It was a long time ago. We all helped jet shop with engine changes and troubleshooting vibe sensors (wiring). I normally work on heavies so seeing engines changed that fast was fascinating. Oddly, I was never interested in turbines back then.
I am an A&P mechanic and have built, balanced all the moving parts, and test cell runs on the CT and T58-140 for the past 24 years. Your video is pretty neat. I would say on that engine your showing, your first and second stage tip clearances could have been to tight. Also not sure what you do with your emergency throttle but that takes all 5 parameters of the engine out and dumps raw uncontrolled fuel into the engine. Sure to burn one up if your using that.
These engines are all in rough shape, far beyond serviceability for flight, and a professional like you would consider them junk. A race winner that I saw had corrosion on the IGVs to the point there were holes you could see through. Each boat is custom built by hot rod people. You are correct: several have gone up in flames because of "uniquely creative" fuel systems!
As non professional mechanic (ie engineer), who has worked on cars for some time, I find one of the most critical skills is working with threaded fasteners. After much trial and error due to no training, I am fairly successful, but I would love a video about how you do that. ie it seems simple but is sure isn't. I loved the video on safety wire.
Any chance of seeing the non-destructive process of cleaning those turbines? I believe in a prior vid you said it was farmed out for one of the aircraft engines, but you seem to be well set up in house for the T58s so I figured it would be safe to ask on the off chance you blast (dry ice? plastic media?) there. Thanks again for all of the effort you put into these.
I built and ran T-58s (both -8B and -8F variants) in the CFB Shearwater T58 Shop for four years, a long time ago. This damage looks similar to one that had the emergency throttle lever accidentally left open slightly before start, which allowed excess fuel into the combustor, and when it lit off it wouldn't stop running (with a five foot long, 12" diameter flame roaring out of the tailpipe) until I shut off the fuel solenoid. Melted both gas turbines just like that one. A similar fuel build up could also be caused by a plugged (corroded) combustion chamber drain or drain line. Did you ever figure it out for this engine?
RIGHT there at 12:40. I see an output shaft on the rear of the jet boat. Does it drive a pump unit or a prop?? It's a jet/waterjet boat or a jet/prop boat??
Every time I watch these videos there's always something new I see that I don't know the function of which I consider a good thing. Also have the jet boats in the shop been to Daytona?
AgentJay Z can we say that the cooling air is almost bypassing the combusting chamber around it and cools exaust gasses before the first stage of the turbine? What is the temperatures before the first stage of the turbine? And some offtopic what is the rpm of the rotor just before ignition of the fuel and starting the engine? Thanks a lot I watched almost all of your vids and I learned a lot !!!
+Емил Чапъров Cooling air is eventually all mixed with combustion air by the time it reaches the outlet of the combustor. That's why I like to call it working air. Each engine has it's own starting rpm, but it is about 10% of max rpm. Ground idle is about 60%. Flight idle is about 85%. Useful power production really starts at about 90% of max rpm. I know that sounds strange, but remember these are not piston engines...
Hopefully you'll let us know if you figure out what happened to your little buddy there, if it wasn't a compressor failure. That looks like not-just a little bit more than the acceptable zero seconds of flame. Yikes. What a bummer.
@@AgentJayZ Was more thinking roll racing with one in the front of a viper with exhaust exiting out the sides Maybe as a hybrid using a massive tesla style motor to spool the motor up to improve throttle response
@@AgentJayZ 🤔🤔 what reasons would you say for it not working It would fit in a viper and be lighter than the v10 And modern brushless electric motors are extremely powerful Would be a case of calculating the required power needed to spin it up to full rpm and have computer control on it to keep the gas generator spinning at whatever rpm you want depending on power level. And then use the actual throttle pedal to inject fuel no fuel means no hot gas to make torque in power turbine Would be complicated computer software but not difficult Given modern ecu technology This should give instant throttle response And when on the throttle it can be used to charge battery But my only experience with gas turbines is in power station application So gas turbines spinning generator But the exhaust gas also being used to boil water and power a steam turbine also spinning a generator
A massive electric motor to improve throttle response? When operating within the intended flight envelope, the throttle response of the T58 is instant. To improve time to flight idle rpm... why would you run down there? And you would be doubling the weight of the powerplant... never mind the batteries you would need. Operate your engine correctly, and you don't need all that other equipment. To spin the T58 up to full rpm, all you need to do is set the fuel control to 100% OR drop the T58 and just make a fast electric car. OR just buy a Tesla, and save the trouble. The Dodge viper is a terrible car. You need to increase your knowledge of how gas turbine engines work, and then decide if you want to make a vehicle powered by one.
Jay z, I know nothing about turbines or jet engines but I was wondering how you hot rod a t-58? Obviously with a piston engine you have a multitude of power adders and performance parts to bolt on. What about a turbine?????
Jay was did this engine burned up while at full rpm and running, or was the damage from a hot start that was not shut off in time? I know on our Dehavilland Twin Otter with PT-6A-27 engines on startup we record the highest temps reached and it goes in a log to record the number of cycles. Thanks for the videos.
Wow! In your vid you picked out a small rock or something out of the engine. How did it get there? Looking at the turbine blades, it looks like they're not melted, but shattered. And why is the molten stuff deposited in the opposite direction of the exhaustgas? I would expect this to be blown out of the engine due to the force of the exhausgasses. Please forgive me if I don't understand (my profession lies elsewhere...). I've become quite addicted to your videos by the way. Keep up the good work!
Price always depends on condition, and your definition of "running" Used, and serviceable for aviation use: North of a half million Used and timed out, needing an overhaul before it's legal to fly: saw one a couple months ago that sold for 400 thousand. Turn-key and in beautiful shape, but not legal for aviation use: anywhere from a 100 to 200 thousand. Basically good shape, but missing parts and of unknown history 20 to 50 thousand. The cheapest I know of a T58 that actually started and ran after considerable TLC was sold for 12 thousand US. No idea of its internal condition or performance level.
1st: Thank you for responding so quickly. 2nd: Damn! Thanks a lot of money! Your answer has crushed my dream project idea...but after watching about 100 of your videos I felt sure I was asking the correct person, thanks for your time sir. P.S. I subscribed to your channel today :)
sundance2005 It's the aftermarket for a highly sought-after commodity. You find 'em any way you can, and you pay what you gotta pay. Just like... exactly like if you wanted to put an old Porsche on the street. How much do they cost? How much for the parts? How much to get it on the street?
I've got a T58-8B I plan to install in an aircraft. I'm trying to decide how much, if any, to modify the 3rd stage turbine nozzle to improve thrust The PT is completely removed of course Any thoughts experience or suggestions Jay?
Jay Jacobs In your application the PT nozzle is necessary only to act as struts to locate the rear bearing housing. Any "nozzling" it does will detract from performance as a turbojet. To work as a turbojet, you will need to create a jet nozzle to accelerate the exhaust gases. Its exit diameter is critical, and I don't know what it would be, but a rough guess would be something like 7 or 8 inches. It would be great for you to document your project for all of us who are interested to see how well it works.
I wasn't very articulate, sorry I'm interested in modifying the 3rd stage turbine nozzles to reduce the no longer needed change in gas direction IOW to reduce the exhaust swirl Yes I do plan on keeping the housing b/c of the 3rd bearing I've calculated an optimum exhaust nozzle diameter of 8"
Maybe cut out every other segment, reweld it in a straight orientation, then when you're done that, just remove all the ones that you didn't cut out. If done carefully, that would preserve the position of the bearing housing. Some of the segments have oil lines running through them.
This was actually my original thought What's your opinion on how to handle the holes left in the casing from the hollow 3rd stage turbine nozzles Jay? Weld covers over them maybe?
AgentJayZ Yeah I bet! I have an exam tomorrow on jet engines for my masters degree, wonder if you could help me. Why is stage loading lower for compressors than turbines? Its something to do with flow separation/pressure gradient I think, is there a better way of wording it? cheers.
Jay can it be that the engine has been fed too hot air? Because that could also have caused the turbines to become too hot. (Maybe a jet exhaust or something like that. Or does the fuel control check the EGT and manage the fuel flow according to it? Then the too hot air fed to the engine is not a valid theory anymore) This theory is also compatible with the pristine compressor. Also it could have been a fuel control problem (maybe malfuncion). That is the other thing I can think of that causes such things to engines. Can a compressor stall cause something like this? (To my understanding a compressor stall is that the compressor does not feed enough air to the combustor liner(s)) Because the compressor stators seem to be adjustable. Hence could have been missadjusted by the engine control and caused a compressor stall. If it's not either of these well then... I'm just a guy randomly throwing ideas into the wind as to what the problem could be.
I like the new moniker: "Frankenstein Gas Turbine Engines" If I had a racing boat I'd probably want to put an engine in it done up by that company. So, in US dollars, what is your ball park cost to replace those burnt out parts? thx... g
As you can see in the video, we have a source of the parts we need already in the shop. So, the only additional cost is going to be for my time to do all the work. ... a fortune oughtta cover it.
AgentJayZ Jay, are new parts, such as hot end parts destroyed here, even still available? Even if they are, the cost would be high I'm assuming. Thanks for the hard work.
You're looking at several hundred thousand dollars for the parts only. Plus my millions for installation. OR we can get those parts from engines that have suffered ather types of misfortune... as illustrated in this video. All completely against strict OEM policy and absolutely shattering any hope of warranty... but that's the way you win races.
AgentJayZ I'm curious about the "scavenging" concept: In other fields of technology the editions with the same models changes often, sometimes new stuff every year. But how about the jet industry? I.e. is the parts from these T58 totally interchangeable?
see flux invertor at m thermodynamic resonant engine with a rotary variant, flux invertor (double way fan) used try times I think can compensate all classic compressor metod- dynamic to static pressure dynamic is preluated partialy tro static
Yes, thanks... The instructional video you speak of was made in 1977, I think. We've all seen it and remember the humor being quite funny way back then, years and years ago. Thanks for the memories old chap !
AgentJayZ, I was curious if u offer installs and sales of these gas turbines that u have put into boats? do u have a personal way to contact u? email or messenger on fb or Instagram or any personal way to contact you or your shop?
In SAC while in the Air Force I worked on the T58-3 & T58-3 in an overhaul facility, on the flight line, and in deployment in Vietnam. This brings back a lot of memories.
That was kinda sweet the way you went from kind of laughing at the results of this small catastrophe (don't we all do that at times?) to the sobering respect for this as a significant part of someone's emotional and financial life...
I started watching some of these videos a month or two back. Now that I know a little bit more about how turbine engines work, i'm hooked
Oh wow, what a mess!. lotta scrap parts in that poor little thing!
its interesting that people i talk to often expect that flames going through the turbine is a normal thing, and I have to explain that its usually one of 2 things they are seeing, an afterburner, or the immanent death of the engine!. i am not aware of any other reason to see flames out the exhaust of the engine post-startup
Actually it could also happen during start up on some engines. But during operation, no flames in the turbines please. :)
AgentJayZ - I Love watching your vids! I learn SO much! Although my interest in turbines is primarily aircraft you've opened my eyes to Jetboat racing.
P.s. Charlie Lake ROCKS too! I lived near DC down the road in the early 80's on an Outfitters Ranch. Thanks for your work
Great teaching lesson about " cooling air " and " working air "!
The "working air" as you coined it was what I was trained in when we had a t-58 inside our class room. 75% was used for cooling and 25% for power. So in this engines case, for just a few seconds, it lost its compressed air..and fuel was being injected at the same fuel rate? That would cause the Nf temps to skyrocket. We never had a engine fire on our sikorsky Ch-3e. Only in one case when the ch-3e was in phase or storage for a long time, the pilot did not let the engine idle long enough on the flight line before taking off. He flew right back because he did not give the seals enough time to seal properly. I guess if the carbon seals do go dry for a long time they can be come to stiff and not seal properly?
This gives me nostalgia. The T-58 / Gnome. An engine that always fascinated me. Expensive, complex, old ... and wonderfully potent. It was the direct application of the experimental 10 stages NACA subsonic axial compressor.
I remember that 20 years ago I had to set up a fuel control unit. I can not even remember what it was like. Of course. An all hydropneumatic nightmare!
So much fun. Love your videos JayZ!
That's a very nice hotted up Stovebolt 6!
I love the information in your videos. Thank you very much!
Another great video Jay! You seem extra cheerful in this one, always nice to see a person cheerful at work! :)
Sounds like you have those birds that sound like music in the shop again! ;)
Take it easy and thanks again from the UK!
Always interesting videos - keep them coming!
Wow! Saddest thing I've seen in a long time.
My next 2 guesses for the molten metal in the turbine..oil seal leak and fire or burner can failure loose flame holding power. (in addition to fuel regulator problem) I would think fuel regulator even at wide open would have limit to max use by the engine.
Can't wait for next update.
I will be watching next videos of this engine. This repair will have to get many of us to see all the proccess. This is good repair due to fuel management, the engine received to much heat, and looks it will be expensive. Taking parts of another engine, it is money too. Thanks for bringing this knowledge to all.
thanks for sharing this with us, very interesting
AgentJayZ - Thanks again - I think I learn more from this video of what happened when things go wrong, than I did from most of the other videos dealing with the theory and concepts!!! An Amazing Video - THANKS FOR SHARING!
Variable pitch stators are a pretty ingenious invention
F-4 comp. Have them too.
Very very interesting and inspiring!
Boundary Layer air prevents hot gases from impinging on casings and components. Like the video.
Technically that is untrue, but you are calling the layer of cooling air around the combustor liner "boundary layer air". The boundary layer has a very specific technical meaning, and it does not apply here.
Or, and whatever you mean by components... the engine functions by having the hot gases most definitely impinge upon the turbine nozzles and blades. I absolutely consider those to be components.
@@AgentJayZ Only worked on T58 GE 8F for 20 years while in uniform. We did the complete overhaul.
There is a boundary layer of cooling air
that is always moving from fore to aft of the engine across the internal casings providing an insulation barrier from the hot gases impinging on them. My two cents.
My sympathy to the owner of that engine.
I am really interested how that happened
This reminds me of something I saw once involving a TF-34 engine out an A-10.
The A-10 has an auto engine start feature. There was a constraint that if you had a flame out, you had to wait about 2 minutes before trying to restart the engine so that everything inside the turbine section had time to cool down.
Well, some big wig table jockey type was flying one of our A-10's and he had a flame out. He wasn't very familiar with the airplane and he tried doing a restart right away. As a result raw fuel came into direct contact with the hot turbine blades and turbine guide vanes. The raw fuel ignited and everything melted just like in Jay's video. I saw the engine disassembled afterwards and everything in the back looked like burnt toast.
Just a simple mistake like that did about a half million dollars worth of damage to the engine. There were thousands of dollars worth of turbine wheels and stator vane assemblies reduced to worthless junk.
"big wig table jockey"? Horse racing? Cool story. Makes sense that fuel in that area would be a problem.
I would figure the igniter would light the fuel before it hit the turbines during the start sequence. Maybe there is no igniter during the start after a flameout. Odd.
The guy flying the A-10 ("big wig table jockey" - I should have said "desk jockey") was a general who normally worked at the Air National Guard bureau. He normally flew nothing heavier and faster than a desk. Apparently he had been to A-10 flight school, but he had minimal time in the A-10 so that probably accounted for his very expensive mistake.
What he did wrong was after a flame out, the pilot is supposed to pull the throttle all the way back to idle, then lift it up, and then move it back further over the idle stop and then all the way back into the off position. What he did instead was he pulled it back to idle and then he just left it there. That's why the engine immediately tried to restart itself.
I was in avionics maintenance so I got the details about what happened second hand from a friend of mine who worked in the engine shop. What I remember him telling me was that the TF-34 used an annular combustor that ran super hot to increase fuel economy and so everything back in the turbine section operated at very high temperatures. All the turbine blades and stator vanes even had tiny passages drilled through them with lasers to allow cooling air to pass through them.
What I remember him telling me was that everything in the turbine section operates so hot that if you try to do an immediate restart, residual heat being retained in the turbine blades and guide vanes is sufficient to ignite raw fuel that's being injected during the restart. That's why you are supposed to wait to do a restart. It's so that everything back there in the turbine section has a chance to cool down first.
That's what I remember him telling me and that's all I can tell you.
I was comm/nav on
A-10's for a year. It was a long time ago. We all helped jet shop with engine changes and troubleshooting vibe sensors (wiring). I normally work on heavies so seeing engines changed that fast was fascinating. Oddly, I was never interested in turbines back then.
@@TheZX11 động cơ tuabin này bao nhiêu tiền mua ở đâu admin
I am an A&P mechanic and have built, balanced all the moving parts, and test cell runs on the CT and T58-140 for the past 24 years. Your video is pretty neat. I would say on that engine your showing, your first and second stage tip clearances could have been to tight. Also not sure what you do with your emergency throttle but that takes all 5 parameters of the engine out and dumps raw uncontrolled fuel into the engine. Sure to burn one up if your using that.
These engines are all in rough shape, far beyond serviceability for flight, and a professional like you would consider them junk.
A race winner that I saw had corrosion on the IGVs to the point there were holes you could see through.
Each boat is custom built by hot rod people. You are correct: several have gone up in flames because of "uniquely creative" fuel systems!
2:44, I'm no jet engine expert, but I know that ain't good.
As non professional mechanic (ie engineer), who has worked on cars for some time, I find one of the most critical skills is working with threaded fasteners. After much trial and error due to no training, I am fairly successful, but I would love a video about how you do that. ie it seems simple but is sure isn't. I loved the video on safety wire.
Nothing like scrounging some juicy bits for the ze frankenjet! lol I hope ze frankenjet goes on to win gold!
Any chance of seeing the non-destructive process of cleaning those turbines? I believe in a prior vid you said it was farmed out for one of the aircraft engines, but you seem to be well set up in house for the T58s so I figured it would be safe to ask on the off chance you blast (dry ice? plastic media?) there.
Thanks again for all of the effort you put into these.
Bahut badiya.
You have toooo much fun.
Something tells me that won't just grind out. O_O Woah.
nice snap-on bench :)
Off topic, but nice little Ninja 250 track bike ;)
I built and ran T-58s (both -8B and -8F variants) in the CFB Shearwater T58 Shop for four years, a long time ago. This damage looks similar to one that had the emergency throttle lever accidentally left open slightly before start, which allowed excess fuel into the combustor, and when it lit off it wouldn't stop running (with a five foot long, 12" diameter flame roaring out of the tailpipe) until I shut off the fuel solenoid. Melted both gas turbines just like that one. A similar fuel build up could also be caused by a plugged (corroded) combustion chamber drain or drain line. Did you ever figure it out for this engine?
In Helicopter Accidents FB web your videos are a hit¡¡¡¡
8:45 Tolkien, thinking "cellar door" was an exceptionally beautiful phase, clearly never heard a Canadian issue the utterance, "upper stator case."
RIGHT there at 12:40. I see an output shaft on the rear of the jet boat. Does it drive a pump unit or a prop??
It's a jet/waterjet boat or a jet/prop boat??
Did not find the cause? Hope it does not happen again.
Is there no safety thermometer that cuts the fuel? Would it be too slow to do any good?
T56-7/15 Baby. Usaf tough powerplants.
You can rebuild the engine, as this is so interesting 👍
Every time I watch these videos there's always something new I see that I don't know the function of which I consider a good thing. Also have the jet boats in the shop been to Daytona?
the damage by a classic hot start, for example due to weak batteries, would look pretty much the same ?
FrankenJet! To the Races! Cool!
AgentJay Z can we say that the cooling air is almost bypassing the combusting chamber around it and cools exaust gasses before the first stage of the turbine? What is the temperatures before the first stage of the turbine? And some offtopic what is the rpm of the rotor just before ignition of the fuel and starting the engine? Thanks a lot I watched almost all of your vids and I learned a lot !!!
+Емил Чапъров Cooling air is eventually all mixed with combustion air by the time it reaches the outlet of the combustor. That's why I like to call it working air. Each engine has it's own starting rpm, but it is about 10% of max rpm.
Ground idle is about 60%. Flight idle is about 85%. Useful power production really starts at about 90% of max rpm.
I know that sounds strange, but remember these are not piston engines...
Did them frankenjet vin der Irish Gould.?
Hopefully you'll let us know if you figure out what happened to your little buddy there, if it wasn't a compressor failure. That looks like not-just a little bit more than the acceptable zero seconds of flame. Yikes. What a bummer.
The more videos I watch on the t58 the more I want one to put in a car 😂😂
A drag car or a mud bogger would be a good project!
@@AgentJayZ Was more thinking roll racing with one in the front of a viper with exhaust exiting out the sides
Maybe as a hybrid using a massive tesla style motor to spool the motor up to improve throttle response
Nope. Those two won't work.
@@AgentJayZ 🤔🤔 what reasons would you say for it not working It would fit in a viper and be lighter than the v10
And modern brushless electric motors are extremely powerful
Would be a case of calculating the required power needed to spin it up to full rpm and have computer control on it to keep the gas generator spinning at whatever rpm you want depending on power level. And then use the actual throttle pedal to inject fuel no fuel means no hot gas to make torque in power turbine Would be complicated computer software but not difficult Given modern ecu technology
This should give instant throttle response And when on the throttle it can be used to charge battery
But my only experience with gas turbines is in power station application So gas turbines spinning generator
But the exhaust gas also being used to boil water and power a steam turbine also spinning a generator
A massive electric motor to improve throttle response? When operating within the intended flight envelope, the throttle response of the T58 is instant. To improve time to flight idle rpm... why would you run down there? And you would be doubling the weight of the powerplant... never mind the batteries you would need. Operate your engine correctly, and you don't need all that other equipment.
To spin the T58 up to full rpm, all you need to do is set the fuel control to 100%
OR drop the T58 and just make a fast electric car.
OR just buy a Tesla, and save the trouble.
The Dodge viper is a terrible car.
You need to increase your knowledge of how gas turbine engines work, and then decide if you want to make a vehicle powered by one.
IGV rings are rusty. where did the engine spend its life in florida?
gear head heaven
Jay z, I know nothing about turbines or jet engines but I was wondering how you hot rod a t-58? Obviously with a piston engine you have a multitude of power adders and performance parts to bolt on. What about a turbine?????
Jay was did this engine burned up while at full rpm and running, or was the damage from a hot start that was not shut off in time? I know on our Dehavilland Twin Otter with PT-6A-27 engines on startup we record the highest temps reached and it goes in a log to record the number of cycles. Thanks for the videos.
I was not present when this engine burned up, so my info is sketchy and second-hand.
AgentJayZ Ok thanks for the reply Mr.J keep up the amazing quality videos!
Oh wait. I thought the molten stuff was from the 'broken' turbine blades...correct? Now I get it, I think. Thanks for the response.
Wow! In your vid you picked out a small rock or something out of the engine. How did it get there? Looking at the turbine blades, it looks like they're not melted, but shattered. And why is the molten stuff deposited in the opposite direction of the exhaustgas? I would expect this to be blown out of the engine due to the force of the exhausgasses. Please forgive me if I don't understand (my profession lies elsewhere...).
I've become quite addicted to your videos by the way. Keep up the good work!
we were looking at stg2. stg1 is in front of stg 2, and was subjected to greater heat.
AgentJayZ Sir, I can not find a price online, and I was wondering if you could tell me what would a used, running, T58 would cost.
Price always depends on condition, and your definition of "running"
Used, and serviceable for aviation use: North of a half million
Used and timed out, needing an overhaul before it's legal to fly: saw one a couple months ago that sold for 400 thousand.
Turn-key and in beautiful shape, but not legal for aviation use: anywhere from a 100 to 200 thousand.
Basically good shape, but missing parts and of unknown history 20 to 50 thousand.
The cheapest I know of a T58 that actually started and ran after considerable TLC was sold for 12 thousand US. No idea of its internal condition or performance level.
1st: Thank you for responding so quickly.
2nd: Damn! Thanks a lot of money!
Your answer has crushed my dream project idea...but after watching about 100 of your videos I felt sure I was asking the correct person, thanks for your time sir.
P.S. I subscribed to your channel today :)
That is a cute little engine. Too bad it got an owie.
Where do you find all these T58 and just out of curiosity what do you have to pay for a pile of parts like the one you showed in this video?
sundance2005 It's the aftermarket for a highly sought-after commodity. You find 'em any way you can, and you pay what you gotta pay.
Just like... exactly like if you wanted to put an old Porsche on the street. How much do they cost? How much for the parts? How much to get it on the street?
I've got a T58-8B I plan to install in an aircraft. I'm trying to decide how much, if any, to modify the 3rd stage turbine nozzle to improve thrust The PT is completely removed of course Any thoughts experience or suggestions Jay?
Jay Jacobs In your application the PT nozzle is necessary only to act as struts to locate the rear bearing housing. Any "nozzling" it does will detract from performance as a turbojet. To work as a turbojet, you will need to create a jet nozzle to accelerate the exhaust gases. Its exit diameter is critical, and I don't know what it would be, but a rough guess would be something like 7 or 8 inches.
It would be great for you to document your project for all of us who are interested to see how well it works.
I wasn't very articulate, sorry I'm interested in modifying the 3rd stage turbine nozzles to reduce the no longer needed change in gas direction IOW to reduce the exhaust swirl
Yes I do plan on keeping the housing b/c of the 3rd bearing I've calculated an optimum exhaust nozzle diameter of 8"
Maybe cut out every other segment, reweld it in a straight orientation, then when you're done that, just remove all the ones that you didn't cut out. If done carefully, that would preserve the position of the bearing housing.
Some of the segments have oil lines running through them.
This was actually my original thought What's your opinion on how to handle the holes left in the casing from the hollow 3rd stage turbine nozzles Jay? Weld covers over them maybe?
oweeeee....
OMG... that's a sad view
Why are the turbine blades damaged much more than the stators in front of them?
Not sure, but what I didn't show was the first stage turbine nozzle - stators - . It was completely melted like ice cream on a hot day
AgentJayZ Yeah I bet! I have an exam tomorrow on jet engines for my masters degree, wonder if you could help me. Why is stage loading lower for compressors than turbines? Its something to do with flow separation/pressure gradient I think, is there a better way of wording it? cheers.
This looks like a classic hot start
Did this turbine break during testing or racing?
Racing
I have seen what’s left of a 80 ton steam turbine that went from 3000rpm to zero in thee rotations.
A lot less left of the blades than this 😂😂
Jay can it be that the engine has been fed too hot air? Because that could also have caused the turbines to become too hot. (Maybe a jet exhaust or something like that. Or does the fuel control check the EGT and manage the fuel flow according to it? Then the too hot air fed to the engine is not a valid theory anymore)
This theory is also compatible with the pristine compressor.
Also it could have been a fuel control problem (maybe malfuncion). That is the other thing I can think of that causes such things to engines.
Can a compressor stall cause something like this? (To my understanding a compressor stall is that the compressor does not feed enough air to the combustor liner(s)) Because the compressor stators seem to be adjustable. Hence could have been missadjusted by the engine control and caused a compressor stall.
If it's not either of these well then... I'm just a guy randomly throwing ideas into the wind as to what the problem could be.
That's an old engine without any fancy feedback systems. Without a modern FADEC controls you can forget about an EGT limiting system.
I didn't mean a feedback system. Like it literally breathed too hot air (maybe from a flame thower; sorry bad joke)
Nice carnage.
I like the new moniker: "Frankenstein Gas Turbine Engines" If I had a racing boat I'd probably want to put an engine in it done up by that company. So, in US dollars, what is your ball park cost to replace those burnt out parts? thx... g
As you can see in the video, we have a source of the parts we need already in the shop.
So, the only additional cost is going to be for my time to do all the work.
... a fortune oughtta cover it.
AgentJayZ
Jay, are new parts, such as hot end parts destroyed here, even still available? Even if they are, the cost would be high I'm assuming. Thanks for the hard work.
You're looking at several hundred thousand dollars for the parts only. Plus my millions for installation.
OR we can get those parts from engines that have suffered ather types of misfortune... as illustrated in this video.
All completely against strict OEM policy and absolutely shattering any hope of warranty... but that's the way you win races.
AgentJayZ
Thanks for the reply... I see what you're saying.....
DD
AgentJayZ I'm curious about the "scavenging" concept: In other fields of technology the editions with the same models changes often, sometimes new stuff every year. But how about the jet industry? I.e. is the parts from these T58 totally interchangeable?
Those blades have been totals carbonized.
I would like to have a jet turbine engine they are so cool I wounder if some one can get me one of those or an apu engine
see flux invertor at m thermodynamic resonant engine with a rotary variant, flux invertor (double way fan) used try times I think can compensate all classic compressor metod- dynamic to static pressure dynamic is preluated partialy tro static
Yes, thanks... The instructional video you speak of was made in 1977, I think. We've all seen it and remember the humor being quite funny way back then, years and years ago.
Thanks for the memories old chap !
AgentJayZ Thank JAY but I speak about something new there , avoiding a lot a vibrations, avoiding inverse compression for accidentaly burning etc
AgentJayZ, I was curious if u offer installs and sales of these gas turbines that u have put into boats? do u have a personal way to contact u? email or messenger on fb or Instagram or any personal way to contact you or your shop?
The business email is on the channel page.
@@AgentJayZ I cant find ur channel page...i go to ur channel tab and it says u don't have any channels
Tt is g