A helpful perspective may be to view a note as a time averaged frequency rather than as a time invariant frequency. There has been enough research done recently that feature the spectrographs of characteristic notes (begada ma, saveri ri, etc) whose spectrograph shows the continuous variation of frequency over time, which when averaged produce a value in the neighborhood of the swarasthana. It is vital to the survival of the art that these time variant versions of notes be preserved rather than be repalced by 'bald' time invariant ones. Many thanks to the academy folks for uploading this and other excellent lec dems and letting a much larger audience be part of the conference vicariously
Excellent explanation of microtones. I have listened to Dhrupad music of Dagar brothers, rudra veena by Asad Ali Khan, etc. In Dhrupad, the oldest form of classical music based on the rudra veena, there is explicit use of microtones. It is the defining feature of the Dhrupad bani. However when khayal singing became more popular, they lost this tradition of microtones. It is so refreshing to see that our carnatic system has borrowed/incorporated from Dhrupad. Very informative and enlightening. Especially Sri Ramanathan's exposition at 48:30 of the different microtones used in carnatic music. Thank you for this lecture.
Raghul S Venkatesh I have been blessed to experience many Dhrupad concerts over the last 12 years and particularly inspired by Dagarvani lineage and practitioners. I find it interesting that you say Carnatic tradition incorporated the use of Shruti from Dhrupad. I am not deeply knowledgable in such matters but my question is, do you think Dhrupad is indeed older and preceded Carnatic music? I am interested form a musicological point of view. Kind regards
@@DarrenSangita Yes, I would like to argue that Dhrupad is indeed older. It is widely considered to be the first traditional form that evolved in India with texts dating back to 2000+ years. Modern carnatic music is about 500 years at the max, especially the compositions of the trinity and other prominent composers. Further, if you notice the mridangam it is eerily similar to the Pakhwaj/Mridang. The origins of either might be correlated so its not fair to say one is before the other. But they were essentially used in Dhrupad dating back 2000 years. Also, the concept of Tanam in carnatic music (part of what is termed RTP) seems to have been inspired by the Dhrupad jhala or nomtom passages that are sung after the alap. This form has been incorporated in RTPs in the south and Khyal singing in the north. The origins can clearly be traced back to Dhrupad. The concept of microtonal singing was the earliest form of gamaka employed in Dhrupad. This was later adapted to Khyal and carnatic music. In the latter, we definitely have the most sophisticated collection of gamakas covering the whole possible gamut of singing a note. However the basic idea of exploring the microtones seems to have had its origins in Dhrupad.
@@raghul2k Thank you very much for sharing your invaluable insights. I am not having much knowledge about the history of Carnatic music development so it's very useful and interesting to know what you say. I had thought that Carnatic tradition was somehow much older than that, particularly in light of the vast network of living temples that still thrive across the south of India that date back to Chola dynasty. You have inspired me to conduct further research and learn more about the historical context of this wonderful music tradition. Thanks again for your time. Hope to meet you at one of the wonderful Carnatic music festivals in future ! Do you have any reccomendation ?
@@DarrenSangita Thanks, nice to know. I am NOT an expert or anything. I learnt carnatic music and listened to other classical forms in India. Quite voraciously. Most of my inferences are not drawn by studying manuscripts etc. It is instead through deriving some logical conclusions by observing similarities and dissimilarities between different forms. I would say that carnatic music has definitely evolved over 2000 years as well (from bharathanatyam and other art forms of that time). All I am saying is that the modern techniques of singing have some common roots. It would be wrong to claim that carnatic music followed Hindustani. I think there is definite co-evolution of the two. Dhrupad, on the other hand, is a bit more primitive and ancient, which also explains its dwindling popularity! If you are inclined academically to study these things, I am sorry I am NOT an expert. In the above video, Sowmya has mentioned multiple references, and if she writes a book I would read it to learn for myself. She seems to underline an important point: that carnatic music as we know today has borrowed and evolved continuously over the last two millenia to be where it is today. Dhrupad might have been a small part of that borrowing process.
Could not have the MusicAcademy provided a mic with stand, or a lapel mic for Dr Sowmya? such an excellent presentation, with such clarity is marred by the constant change of mics!
th-cam.com/video/MbcoX6xXyGA/w-d-xo.html this is the sound of her Veena? right when she is explaining what is perhaps the most important part of DrSowmya's brilliant illustrations of her theses. this is stunning considering it is at no less a venue than the Madras "Music" "Academy", where i have listened to Ustad Bismillah Khan in an exquisite LecDem/Concert (early SpicMacay days!). in 'pindrop' silence. Shehnai at its Bliss! if this is the level of attention to stage and sound detail for the "Annual" "Conference", i dread to imagine what young artists must sound like in their repetitively boring 'Sabha' Kutcheries on weekday afternoons!
Microtones very nicely approached in Carnatic music and explained; similar to the approach in learning dhrupad which approaches beyond the simple concept of 22 sruthi! Thank you for sanjai-ji’s clarification and the the post!
Thank you for creating such lecdems and recording them so well. Your channel is a boon to music lovers everywhere. The great Carnatic tradition that you share insights into is vast, like an Ocean and it’s a joy to receive whatever learning we can from you. I read some of the other comments and of course ( as a foreigner / non-Tamil speaking person) I would love to have English subtitles but understand that it is a Tamil Music Academy, not the International Tamil music Academy. Perhaps in future, we may be blessed with such an institution. Give thanks for your hard works and devotion to music itself.
A helpful perspective may be to view a note as a time averaged frequency rather than as a time invariant frequency. There has been enough research done recently that feature the spectrographs of characteristic notes (begada ma, saveri ri, etc) whose spectrograph shows the continuous variation of frequency over time, which when averaged produce a value in the neighborhood of the swarasthana. It is vital to the survival of the art that these time variant versions of notes be preserved rather than be repalced by 'bald' time invariant ones. Many thanks to the academy folks for uploading this and other excellent lec dems and letting a much larger audience be part of the conference vicariously
Dr vidyadhar oake has done quite a lot of work on this subject. Including a 22 shruti harmonium. Great post
Excellent explanation of microtones. I have listened to Dhrupad music of Dagar brothers, rudra veena by Asad Ali Khan, etc. In Dhrupad, the oldest form of classical music based on the rudra veena, there is explicit use of microtones. It is the defining feature of the Dhrupad bani. However when khayal singing became more popular, they lost this tradition of microtones. It is so refreshing to see that our carnatic system has borrowed/incorporated from Dhrupad. Very informative and enlightening. Especially Sri Ramanathan's exposition at 48:30 of the different microtones used in carnatic music. Thank you for this lecture.
Raghul S Venkatesh I have been blessed to experience many Dhrupad concerts over the last 12 years and particularly inspired by Dagarvani lineage and practitioners. I find it interesting that you say Carnatic tradition incorporated the use of Shruti from Dhrupad. I am not deeply knowledgable in such matters but my question is, do you think Dhrupad is indeed older and preceded Carnatic music? I am interested form a musicological point of view. Kind regards
@@DarrenSangita Yes, I would like to argue that Dhrupad is indeed older. It is widely considered to be the first traditional form that evolved in India with texts dating back to 2000+ years. Modern carnatic music is about 500 years at the max, especially the compositions of the trinity and other prominent composers. Further, if you notice the mridangam it is eerily similar to the Pakhwaj/Mridang. The origins of either might be correlated so its not fair to say one is before the other. But they were essentially used in Dhrupad dating back 2000 years. Also, the concept of Tanam in carnatic music (part of what is termed RTP) seems to have been inspired by the Dhrupad jhala or nomtom passages that are sung after the alap. This form has been incorporated in RTPs in the south and Khyal singing in the north. The origins can clearly be traced back to Dhrupad. The concept of microtonal singing was the earliest form of gamaka employed in Dhrupad. This was later adapted to Khyal and carnatic music. In the latter, we definitely have the most sophisticated collection of gamakas covering the whole possible gamut of singing a note. However the basic idea of exploring the microtones seems to have had its origins in Dhrupad.
@@raghul2k Thank you very much for sharing your invaluable insights. I am not having much knowledge about the history of Carnatic music development so it's very useful and interesting to know what you say. I had thought that Carnatic tradition was somehow much older than that, particularly in light of the vast network of living temples that still thrive across the south of India that date back to Chola dynasty. You have inspired me to conduct further research and learn more about the historical context of this wonderful music tradition. Thanks again for your time.
Hope to meet you at one of the wonderful Carnatic music festivals in future ! Do you have any reccomendation ?
@@DarrenSangita Thanks, nice to know. I am NOT an expert or anything. I learnt carnatic music and listened to other classical forms in India. Quite voraciously. Most of my inferences are not drawn by studying manuscripts etc. It is instead through deriving some logical conclusions by observing similarities and dissimilarities between different forms. I would say that carnatic music has definitely evolved over 2000 years as well (from bharathanatyam and other art forms of that time). All I am saying is that the modern techniques of singing have some common roots. It would be wrong to claim that carnatic music followed Hindustani. I think there is definite co-evolution of the two. Dhrupad, on the other hand, is a bit more primitive and ancient, which also explains its dwindling popularity! If you are inclined academically to study these things, I am sorry I am NOT an expert. In the above video, Sowmya has mentioned multiple references, and if she writes a book I would read it to learn for myself. She seems to underline an important point: that carnatic music as we know today has borrowed and evolved continuously over the last two millenia to be where it is today. Dhrupad might have been a small part of that borrowing process.
You're wrong, man!
Could not have the MusicAcademy provided a mic with stand, or a lapel mic for Dr Sowmya? such an excellent presentation, with such clarity is marred by the constant change of mics!
th-cam.com/video/MbcoX6xXyGA/w-d-xo.html this is the sound of her Veena? right when she is explaining what is perhaps the most important part of DrSowmya's brilliant illustrations of her theses. this is stunning considering it is at no less a venue than the Madras "Music" "Academy", where i have listened to Ustad Bismillah Khan in an exquisite LecDem/Concert (early SpicMacay days!). in 'pindrop' silence. Shehnai at its Bliss! if this is the level of attention to stage and sound detail for the "Annual" "Conference", i dread to imagine what young artists must sound like in their repetitively boring 'Sabha' Kutcheries on weekday afternoons!
exactly!
Microtones very nicely approached in Carnatic music and explained; similar to the approach in learning dhrupad which approaches beyond the simple concept of 22 sruthi! Thank you for sanjai-ji’s clarification and the the post!
Thank you for creating such lecdems and recording them so well. Your channel is a boon to music lovers everywhere. The great Carnatic tradition that you share insights into is vast, like an Ocean and it’s a joy to receive whatever learning we can from you. I read some of the other comments and of course ( as a foreigner / non-Tamil speaking person) I would love to have English subtitles but understand that it is a Tamil Music Academy, not the International Tamil music Academy. Perhaps in future, we may be blessed with such an institution. Give thanks for your hard works and devotion to music itself.
Very helpful and informative ......But please add subtitles in English for better understanding..... Specially for non Tamil students...
Exactly....students who doesnt understand tamil are not being benefited
Thank you for this effort. If possible, could you please emphasize English so that learners from other states can follow too? Thanks again.
Pls add English subtitles. I can't understand tamil
Me too 🙄
Amazing elucidation understandable by a novice like me
Please add English subtitles 😊❤
Very very useful lecture demo
One wonders why such lectures should be in Tamil! There are listeners across India interested in this subject and get deprived! PLEASE be considerate.
48:10 demo
She could have arranged another person to play veena..sad to hear mistakes from her.