Was Billy the Kid's Death a Hoax? The Truth Revealed!
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 12 ก.ย. 2024
- How can we be so certain that Pat Garrett really put an end to Billy the Kid? Did Billy really live to be an old man named Brushy Bill Roberts? Today we take a look at all of the evidence - the eyewitness accounts, official documentation, coroner’s jury report, etc. - and decide, once and for all, what really happened at Fort Sumner in 1881. We also dispel a few myths, discuss why Garrett didn't take a photo of Billy the Kid, define what the term anecdotal means, and why - at the end of the day - I think it’s ok for us to disagree. #history #wildwest #billythekid #oldwestfacts #facts
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What say you? Case closed or is there still a way that Billy survived and lived to be an old man?
I’m glad ur doing it full time now , wish u the best. Ill try to join into history not sure where to find it but I’ll check out the podcast sites and look for it
Well it not likely but there's always a way, everyone would have to be either in on it or quick thinking take advantage of a situation where pat did kill the wrong man, wanted to get out of it so him and the deputies lie and say its billy who dyed his skin brown. Billy's friends in turn see the situation and go along with it, giving Billy a chance to fake his death. Thats the only way I could see him living past that night. Now what are the odds of that? Probably about the same as getting struck by lightning three times on the tip of the dong. Id have to agree that he was killed that night, as much as I'd like to think he lived on.
Would be one of those rare cases where an entire town actually did conspire to do something like this. That said this isnt tricking people into fishing far away from the best spots or convincing people drop bears will eat them.
People just want Billy to have survived. Doesn't mean he did. I also highly doubt Pat gave him any chance to throw up his hands.
It's always a possibility. Memories change over the years. But you will never know for sure. Just like it's always possibility Hitler made it out of Germany.
I would like to point out that when I was a teenager I got to know a good friend of my fathers, Tom Garrett, great nephew of Pat Garrett. Tom knew Pat well. Tom told me that Pat told him that he did not kill his friend Billy the kid. Take that for what you want, I’ll believe Tom, he had no reason to lie to me.
I appreciate the story.
If? This is accurate. It would show. That the night was completely staged. Garrett & company plus. All the eye witnesses mostly friends. Conspired together. To fake Billy's death.
Honestly that is plausible. Not saying it happened. But I see love one's doing such a act.
@@WildWestExtravaganza
Not saying that this happened.
Just that it's a possibility.
If? Pat did let Billy go. If Billy did come out of hiding. The Kid would know. It wouldn't be just Pat. Getting stoned in the streets. All the documented eye witnesses would also be. Many of The Kid's friends and loved ones. Would also be stoned in the streets.
No Bill would keep in hiding. For them. Not himself.
Edit. Wasn't aware of. Billy messing with other men's wives. Husbands id Billy dead body. That totally throws a monkey wrench in the works.
@@mynameisnoname482Jesus wouldn't break in your house and raid the fridge!!!!
In Billy the Kid
I don't know what I believe I do know Pat Garrett had shot the wrong Man twice before and there's nothing to say that he couldn't have made the same mistake yet again. That being said Billy had a sixth sense that saved him over and over and over again it just seems highly unlikely that he would wander around barefoot with a butcher knife in his hand when they were strangers on the ranch and he knew there were strangers on the ranch whoever the person was he talked to them. That being said I can't in good faith believe that that was Billy the kid he would have been much more cautious especially with strangers. Plus I believe the Mexican that was not an outlaw whose house Billy stayed at he said Billy was satisfied eating beans and tortillas because there were strangers over there but the other man whoever he was said he wanted meat. Billy suggested that he stay put and eat beans and tortillas warning him that they were strangers in the area and he said the man was determined to have some meat. Garrett plugged him he plugged the man that was not wanted he covered it up because it could have been his head in a noose to me that seems far more likely than Billy was roaming around stupidly with strangers and got plugged.
Pat Garrett claimed it for TWO reasons.
1. The 'Reward' money
2. Notoriety--PLAIN AND SIMPLE!
Facts are no one knows anything....
@@user-or7uy6in7zof course no one would know pat Garrett today
I agree 👍 💯
Mariners winning, new Star Wars, flying back to Washington for the weekend for some salmon fishing, and a new episode of WILD WEST EXTRAVAGANZA? Best golden birthday week I could have asked for. THANKS JOSH💪🏽
Happy birthday
🥳
Thank you and thank you🤠
Nice catch man. Happy birthday. Hope you punched that fish. Looks punchable.
@@godwarrior3403 yep she went in the smoker. I caught 4 that day and this one in particular was barehanded with the help of a buddy😆 I’ll never forget it she just surfaced right next to my knee and my buddy and I were like stink on shit lol. I grabbed her by the gills and bud wrangled her tail.
I think.... Billie and pat were buddies... pat wanted fame, Billie wanted to dissappear......
I believe the whole town was saving the kid.
I think Pat Garrett was dull witted man and Billy was bright. If a switcheroo happened it was a Billy the Kid tricking Garrett...which could have happened. Garrett had a twitchy finger and was scared out of his mind already mistakenly killing two of Billys friends.
When I was a kid I would stay with my grandfather on weekends growing up. There wasnt much to do so I would go into his things and explore. He had a very large wild wild west book collection with the fronts having a circle cut out showing a picture of one outlaw featured in said book. Large and brown I belive they were. I would always come back to read the Billy the Kid one for some reason. Id ask him questions and I remember to this day him telling me the picture of billy was mirriored. Then I would watch his young guns movie on repeat 😂. To this day the story of Billy the kid still brings me that excitment my puppup/grandfather was so happy to share with me. I will always remember this. I miss my grandfather very much. We were pals
Billy changed his name to old Henry and moved to Kansas and became a farmer. My sources are CNN and MSNBC
I knew it!
Ahhh...reliable historical sources to be sure!
Must be true then if you heard it there . BS about Brushy
Billy was an escape artis on par with hudini..that boy had more tricks up his sleeve than david Copperfield. If time travel is invented this one of my top ten spots to stop..
Brushy bill just looks taller , his torso is longer , Billy’s head has a tilt to it , brushy bill looks like he has a little Mexican blood in him or spanish just a tad ???
I don't know. I don't think they look alike but even if they did we can still say for certain that they weren't one and the same.
Here’s my thought. None of us really know. He may have faked his death, he may have actually been killed. Who knows. He was interesting enough to still be talked about to this day, and that says all you need to know.
The name Billy the Kid was killed.... William Henry Bonney was not killed. He let out of New Mexico and left the name Billy the Kid buried on a tombstone.
Ok but Henry McCarty was definitely killed
"Selsa Baca?!" "You'll have to bear-grease the walls to get that fat pig in here!"
Billy the kid was the story of the century and by not having his picture taken with the Kid tells me that Billy survived and escaped once again
I disagree but I respect your opinion
Wrong
No one that infamous would have not had a death photo , far lesser known outlaws tracked to far further out un the wilderness had death photos , NONE were rushed into the ground that fast
As for the witnesses well billy was well liked by those in fort sumner , all were apalled at garrett in the same way all would cover for billy like Garrett did so he could live out his days
Many many families around that area even to this day state garrett did not kill billy , i think ill stand with those that had this story handed down to them , than the opinions of all these so called experts that simply follow eachothers so called facts , mostly made up facts , like New york as his birthplace ! That is not a fact its an assumption, a probabilty ! hellit took years for those experts to even realise billy was right handed !
Regardless ill state again you dont need to know much about billy or garrett all you have to do is read the story of how garrett killed billy and use common sense to realise none of it added up !!
There’s talks out there that the tin photo of Billy the Kid was actually him propped up and it was a death photo so who knows if he survived if he was killed we probably will never know
@@davidball699 yeah but nobody has any sources for that talk, it's just an internet rumor. We actually have the first hand eyewitness accounts of people who were there when the photo was taken.
It was a myth he reinvented himself as brushy Bill lol
The Man Pat Garrett shot was not Billy The Kid.
The Kid specifically said he would die with his boots on, this Man was in his socks.
My theory is the Kid escaped to South America on the British Steamer Herminus with Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid.
The Kid worked on their ranch in Patagonia but Etta Place took a shine to him and the Kid had to skin out.
He wound up in Coloraldo where, you guessed it, he founded the clothing company "Patagonia".
Every girl in Coloraldo who refuses to wear make-up wears one of Billy's jackets or pullovers.
Now I did hear that the Man Garrett shot was wearing bright red socks with Christmas trim and small gold bells around the ankles. And I am aware that John King Fisher did gift Billy the aforementioned socks.
So I could be wrong.
I have no idea why nobody wants to let Billy The Kid die in their imaginations.
He has some kinda hold on people. Stealing laundry and being small enough to shimmy up a fireplace and into the pages and pages of history well heck even now it's hard not to like the Kid.
We love our legends
As a casual wild west historian and character actor, I absolutely love your podcast. Well-researched and your delivery is both interesting and entertaining. Keep up the great work, Josh!
Wow, thank you!
I just found out a week or so ago that there was a guy in New Mexico at the time of Billy the kid called Brushy Bill. He had a minor part in the Jennings disappearance. If that Brushy Bill is the same Brushy Bill Roberts that claimed to be Bill The Kid around 1950 would explain how he knew so many details about the Kid. Hopefully somebody will research that a bit better.
Brushy was a teenager living in Hopkins county, Texas when Fountain went missing.
@ConservativeKirbyXIcKXI Not really. He was 92. Have you read "Alias Billy The Kid". Bill Roberts never talked about being Billy The Kid until surviving outlaws and witnesses said he was alive. Bill Roberts had at least a dozen stab wounds and 6 places where he had been shot. I don't know if it's him or not. I want to believe he was the Kid. Read the book if you get a chance. Lots of pictures and history. Also, the book is the basis for the upcoming movie Guns 3: Alias Billy The Kid (Emilio is returning).
0% chance. Just totally ridiculous.
Brushy bill Roberts was Billy the kid!!!
Brushy Bill, the notorious liar? Him?
You referred to the Butch Cassidy thing on the last episode. I would be damn interested in more on that whole bugaboo.
Can't believe I finally found a way to use the word bugaboo.
I did an episode on it a lonnnnng time ago but it's only available on Patreon
Now you can work on using boogaloo!!👍
I must say that youve done a great job. Youve changed my opinion on Bushy and my opinion on Garrett being a coward. Do i wish Brushy was Billy the Kid? Hell yeah i do but ive been convinced other wise.
Except 2 problems, guys that personally rode with Billy the Kid and knew him testified and signed affidavits that brushy bill after meeting him, was in fact Billy the Kid.
Brushy Bill also had every scar known to the kid, including bullet wounds, 5 of them to be exact, are we to really sit here and believe that an old man named brushy bill was a fraud and gave himself 5 bullet wounds just to pass that off?
I really like your style.👍 Your straight forward narrative, is like having a talk with an old friend over a beer or two. Informative, relaxed, and always entertaining to boot.
Thanks for doing this podcast. 😁
Thank you for listening
It's common sense. The base of it all boils down to Billy is basically a 21yo reckless American kid. Whenever he's captured he comes back to sumner and starts doing the same thing i.e cattle rustling and gangster stuff. All 21yo guys are basically immature. They want money n women. He cannot just mastermind faking of his death on a drop of a dime. And just disappear forever from lives of his loved ones. Never even visiting once, not even in disguise? Come on. The people who cook this conspiracy grew up in modern day covert spying era post ww2. They will never understand things were simple back then. Billy was a nobody and he died a nobody, albeit he is remembered as somebody of far greater stature than he actually was. It's a form of mental sickness to treat him like a legend
Why won’t New Mexico release the body, his mother’s body, and get Texas to release William “Brushy Bill” Roberts bodies for DNA analysis. At that time they liked to post a picture of the body in the newspaper.
I can't speak for either state but just my own thoughts? Why would they allow for the graves of real people to be dug up just to quench a morbid curiosity? Brushy Bill has been proven to be a fraud...we know he wasn't Billy the Kid. And it's next to certain that Billy is buried at Fort Sumner. Why dig up real human bodies just to placate a small amount of conspiracy theorists?
There is enough information available from the other camp that says _we_ isn't an as inclusive group as you state. Without the DNA we will never make an absolute determination.@@WildWestExtravaganza
For many years I believed that Billy the Kid survived that day. After hearing this, I have flipped the other way. Many thanks :) One thing I'm sure we can all agree on - the Kid was a fascinating character and will continue to be the subject of many conversations way into the future.
Agreed!
You can't talk about the old west ever without bringing people like Billy the kid, Wyatt Earp, Doc Holliday ect ect ect up in that conversation. So yeah the kid will be a part of our American history
He DID SURVIVE. A man came forward in 1954 and PROVED IT!
HE WAS Billy the Kid. And it wasn't just 'here-say,' he PROVED IT!
I've always believed Billy the Kid died July 14, 1881, because if he hadn't, he couldn't have laid low. He would've shown up somewhere else.
That said, the research absolutely backs up this assumption of Billy's nature.
Yeah, I tend to agree
Remember something Pat.. you'll never be me.. you'll only be the man who shot billy the kid.
Yep
You present a compelling case, and you are a great speaker. Yet, there are still many unanswered questions that will probably never be answered in our time. Great job.
So Pat Garrett shot an unarmed person in a pitch black room and actually didn't miss and only fire one shot and how would he even know what room he would be in.there are way too man unanswered questions surrounding this.
I don't know how pitch black it was and Billy was allegedly armed. I agree, lots of questions.
Becareful, you might get alot of hate mail from the Brushy Bill clan. Lol
Might?
@@WildWestExtravaganza you probably do I take it. Lol
Did any of the witnesses ever see the infamous pic of Billy and say that’s him ??? So that pic may not be Billy , and they took a pic of the james brothers why not take a pic of Billy ??? So frustrating
Yes, Paulita Maxwell commented on it and even said that it was taken in front of Beaver Smith's saloon. She said it wasn't a very good photo and that Billy didn't normally dress like that when he was in town.
I believe George Coe also mentioned the picture. Just acquired his book, not yet read. But that's what I have heard.
Worth noting, the famous tintype appeared in print twice before Billy the Kid died. While the ability to directly reproduce it in print was not available, a woodcut engraving that is obviously taken from the tintype was printed in both March and June in issues of the Boston Illustrated Police News. It may be that Garrett had a copy from the Kid after the Stinking Spring capture, but that is just a guess. The IPN may have had a different source, I just think Garrett is the most likely. We know 4 copies existed, only the Dedrick copy surviving to modern day.
Worth noting too, publishers in 1881 new that a tintype gave a reversed image. The published woodcut engraving has the rifle in Billy's left hand and the revolver on his right hip, which are correct.
@@Rollin_L yep, good info. I believe the Illustrated Police News claimed to have gotten the photo from a jail guard from Las Vegas.
@@WildWestExtravaganza Yes sir, I saw you point that out further down in these comments, after I posted the above. I've got digital copies of those issues, but have not made time to read the text. I had not seen info on where they acquired it, so I am glad to learn something on that. Your efforts here are greatly appreciated, sir!
@@Rollin_L thank you, sir
Great episode! Thanks, Josh! I hope that lovers of the Wild West will find your channel and subscribe to help you keep these great and very entertaining stories alive for generations to come! I look forward to your next video, but in the meantime, I will continue to view your archived videos! Happy trails!
I hope so too
Congrats on the move, and congrats on having the cajones to make this move. I'll be joining Into History and supporting you brother! I admire your courage
Thanks buddy
Billy's legend is extremely fascinating, even if he died that day his legend of riding into the sunset will live on.
Agreed
Ask yourself if Billy's death was a hoax why did no one in Fort Sumner ever say it was. None of them ever claimed Pat Garrett did not kill the Kid even after Pat's death. They cared much for the kid so would have loved to have thrown dirt on Pat by letting the cat out of the bag. Billy's girl friend claimed Pat killed the kid as did Devulina Maxwell who also loved the Kid. So why would any of them lie.
The only reasons I can think of would be to protect Billy or out of fear of Garrett
@@WildWestExtravaganza Okay but after Pat died no one ever came forward and said he didn't kill the Kid.
@@TheSpaghetti64 oh I agree with you. I made the same point in this episode. Those are the only reasons I can imagine and neither hold much water.
Mabey out of fear other lawmen might come hunting the kid and then they all would be in trouble for lieing
@@shannonfraccola4285 maybe
I believe if Billy the Kid was still alive he would have made contact with his lady and his child only child
I like to think that if he was still alive he'd have a podcast
A great podcaster he’d be . It’s interesting that Jesse Evans led Morrison to Brushy Bill. Also, old Doc Scurlock never said a word …Now, when y’all gonna talk about J Frank Dalton’s rope burn scars from being hung as a kid ? Or that one armed soldier that was dug up at Jesse James grave or was it that two folks buried there one in a box and one not in a box?
Brushy Bill claims the man Pat Garrett shot was named Billy Barlow. Have they ever figured out if Billy Barlow was even a real person?
Of course not. Billy Barlow is the title of a once popular song.
@@WildWestExtravaganza Haha really I didn't know that funny. Like you, I want Brushy Bill to be Billy the Kid so bad but the reality is he's just not. But if they make Young Guns 3 about Brushy Bill I'll still be the first one in line to watch it
Oh me too! I might even go watch it twice. In the young guns universe Brushy is real.
I fully think Pat Garrett did indeed shoot and kill Billy.
The only way to know the truth is to do DNA from the body in Billy's grave and his mother.but I still believe that Patt never shot Billy.
Miss the intro but if this is how you grow your channel, I wish you all the best luck. Love the show and keep up the good work. I agree, this thing has been belabored for too long with William.
I just didnt use the intro this week. Was supposed to be a really short episode.
@@WildWestExtravaganza if you have literally anything else going on, and I know you do, it's not easy doing a full time anything.
I really love this channel. I've turned more than one friend onto your narrations. Good luck with your endeavor
Awesome, thank you!
Same
Congrats on quitting your day job! Amazing news. 🎉 Keep them coming I enjoy the hell out of them.
I'm trying!
You sold me Shirley..😊 Great series. Glad you are full time.🎉🎉
See ya next week.
Thanks Scott
@@WildWestExtravaganza did you send me the sub stack subscription? 😘😄✌
If there was any shred of doubt that Garret killed the kid, no money would have been dispersed. And, on top of that, ask yourself if a whole town could've kept the secret that the Kid's death was faked. No way IMHO.
Great job ! 👍✌😎
Yeah, it just doesn't seem very plausible
Yea, because the government has never and will never pay someone who fooled them. That's a pretty weak argument. The whole town didn't see the body, only a hand full of people had to keep the secret. I spent two years (1985 - 1987) and my own money doing my own research most of that time was spent in New Mexico. I like Josh love history my favorite time being the old west. I have a special interest in the Lincoln County War, Pat & Billy because my great grandfather lived in the west Texas boarder towns during the time period. This is not a dig on Josh or his work and it's not a dig on you. My interest was what part and how involved my great grandfather was in all of the goings on. I really don't care if Pat killed Billy, I just don't believed he did. Thanks for you time and happy trails!🤠
@@rongreen4536 But it was a lot more than a handful who saw the body. Thank you for the kind words.
@@rongreen4536 First of all, it was more than a "handful" of people. But for the sake of argument, lets say it was. If you know anything about small towns, where everybody knows everybody, if more than three people know something, the whole town will know eventually.
Second,$500 back then was a small fortune, you might want to research what $500 dollars then, would be worth today. I think my argument is stronger than you think.
Of course, we both have the right to our own opinions and I will even concede you may very well be right, But I doubt it.
Keep lovin' history my friend!!👍✌😎
@@WildWestExtravaganza Good morning Josh, It seams we have come full circle. You did a great job making your argument! I don't agree with you, having said that, you did a great job. You are a smart guy doing the best he can do in the limited time you have on the podcast. I'm going to have a few questions for you in a day are two. My dog died last night in her sleep and that's a big deal to me.😞
Thanks Ron
Well my Friends most Artists and Philosophers are born posthumously.
Now I stole that from Nietzsche, but you can add Billy the Kid into the mix.
In simpler terms a Southner can easily understand, is Elvis worth more alive or dead? The latter.
Van Gogh was broke and chopped off his ear. Now his paintings are worth million and he is worm dirt.
Billy had no idea of his future fame. I hope he is looking down and scratching his head and saying hey, thats not me playing croquet in that photo!
Billy's at that big faro table in the sky!
@@WildWestExtravaganza Praise the Lord!
Love your show.
Your style, delivery and humor is just perfectly off the rails.👍🏻
Gracias
@@WildWestExtravaganza De nada Amigo. I left you a vm about the mass hangings in my home town. I think we hold the record at 41 in a day. Not single black, just Unionist.
Nobody in Gville likes to talk about it until this day.
Yes...I'm definitely doing an episode on it one day... It's been on my list for a while
Well, fucker's dead now, that's for DAMN sure!!! 🤣
Awesome as always Josh, many thanks and best wishes from the UK 🙏🇬🇧👍
Is he, though? If he's dead where's the picture??????
@@WildWestExtravaganza very true!! 😄
i always think that pat garrett shot the wrong guy passed him off as billy and let him get away,being friends probably telling him go somewhere out of the country.the witnesses saying it was billy saying it was him,knowing that it wasnt him also went along with it,so they can take the heat off billy and have the law stop looking for him.i dont think brushy bill was him,probably knew billy or someone close to him and got all the facts from them.
Im not sure if Billy the Kid actually got killed the night , but even if he wasn’t killed , I don’t believe Brushy Bill was actually him . They say Brushy was around 20 years younger than what Billy would be.
I think we all just really want to believe that Billy got away and lived a rich- lovely and long life after all the drama he "survived". ❤
Agreed
i don't even know if it's even that far, but just the fact that he was dropped the way he was is so unceremonious we want something more, and there just isn't.
for example, like the video mentions, multiple people were there that knew and were allied with billy, friends, possible girlfriend, etc.
in a time when almost everyone was at least minimally armed, surrounded by allies of the deceased who had no problem harboring outlaws at minimum, we all kinda assume SOMEBODY would have shot Pat Garrett or that Garrett would have been mobbed by billy's friends once they realized what had happened. the idea that Garrett shot him alone in the dark "Like a Coward" and NOBODY there cut Garrett down in revenge, doesn't vibe with our ethics. which side you take, whether you agree with Billy's criminality or don't, is irrelevent. but the unceremonious and cowardly "Murder" amongst "Friends" with NO retaliation just sits wrong with us. if billy's allies would have killed garrett on the spot, or if the pro- and anti-billy the kid sides of the witnesses had quarrelled and it turned into a brief incident of hostility, HELL, if there was a Light in the room and it at least felt like Billy had a fair chance in the whole thing, we wouldn't have this issue.
we don't need billy to escape/survive, we just need some form of ethical closure and billy was done so dirty that him getting away is the most satisfying alternate story in that regard. if the lights were on and billy got off a shot we wouldn't care, but the fact that THE Billy the Kid, known for being a fast gun and a squirrelly clever sort and inflated to a legend by the papers, was ambushed in the dark and put down like a lame horse, just doesn't feel "Right" ethically or thematically to us, and leaves us needing more.
Much obliged for the quality content you keep churning out here Pardner. I've always been extremely interested in both the historical accounts of the Old West, as well as the wealth of stories and tall tales that come from that time period. So you can imagine I was pretty damn happy to stumble across your channel a while back, as its just the kind of content that I truly can't seem to get enough of. So I'm extending a big thanks to you Josh for all your hard work, dedication and your passion for that colorful time in our history that we all love so much. Many thanks and keep up the incredible work.
I appreciate it
Did brushy bill explain the photo
The only one we have of Billy holdin the rifle ????
I don't know
Ok, you've made adecent case for Garret
but what are your thoughts on Paulita Maxwell's child born after the "Kid" was shot?
From the photos taken he is a dead ringer for the "Kid"
Hmmm, I haven't seen those photos but I don't think we can say anyone's a dead ringer due to us just having one photo of the Kid...and it's a photo that was really bad according to people who knew him. I'm certainly not opposed to Billy having kids, though.
Especially when their a “dead” ringer…😂
@WildWestExtravaganza there were some tins that popped up with photos of Billy.
I read in a book long ago, that Pat, in order to collect the 500 dollar reward, had to summon a deputy from a nearby town to affirm that the Kid was dead and question all witnesses. The interesting part was that the description of the kid. Was said to be taller, with a full beard and darker skin. Billy never wore a beard. He was small of stature and had light skin. I have no clue as to the title of the book, because it was read in a library. It caught my attention because beside telling the known facts about Billy´s life, it also covered the possibility of Billy not being shot at all, hence the above description from the deputy.
As a boy, I traveled with my Dad from Colorado to Los Angles then Bakersfield, California on the Union Paficific. We visited with some old friends of his who were Lawmen from the old days.
They would recant stories of chasing outlaws across the desert.
One of the tales were of chasing Billy.
Friends of Garrett, they mentioned of the "agreement", between Garrett and Billy.
To plan Billy's death at Pete's.
Who saw his body go into the box then into the ground?
Billy wanted to go home peacefully.
What if this were true?
That little “you can go fuck yourself” caught me off guard 😂😂😂
Case closed. Pat Garrett killed him that night.
Great episode Josh. I love that you covered this thoroughly in multiple episodes with different content in each one and from different angles. I think somebody would be hard-pressed to accuse you of coming to the conclusion that you have blindly.
Congrats on the new gig. I hope it works out well for you. I’ll cancel my Patreon and join into history sometime this week.
Btw, did you ever get the podcast up that you talked about for tips and hints in starting a podcast?
Thanks! I did not but if you have any questions please feel free to email me
It's my story and I'm stick'n to it! LOL
Ha!
I really wish this were a one second video, script: "No."
I think Hollywood has help give the myths of Billy the Kid longevity. People will continue to believe the myths because of movies like Young Guns and its sequel as fact instead of looking at records. I trust historians more than Hollywood screenwriters and the word of Conman
well said
Are there any records of Billy having a blood related brother or half brother within a year or two of his age?
Yeah, his brother Joseph
@@WildWestExtravaganzaHe must've been a man of few words.
He and their step father lived a long time. Seems like the press wasn't really interested in their stories. I did an episode on Joseph - "Brothers McCarty"
@@WildWestExtravaganzaI couldn't tell you how many summers I spent in Ruidoso NM. I took my girlfriend out there a couple of weeks ago. I was a Billy the Kid fanatic long before Young Guns. I've ridden horseback in those mountains countless times. My favorite ride was in a rainstorm around 85 or 86. There's definitely an energy to those mountains that draws me to them to this very day. I appreciate all the research you've done.💯
I'd love to visit that area some day
Pat Garrett was good friends with Billy. Most people stated that it was not the kid years later. At the time, they said it was, but they were his friends and were covering it up, so Billy could get away.
Most people that live at Fort Sumner loved Billy the Kid, he helped them he gave them money so he was the community's friend.
You're right about a few things. Pat Garrett and Billy, at one point, had been friends. And most people at Fort Sumner liked the Kid.
However, "most people stated that it was not the kid years later" is not true. In fact, not a single person from Fort Sumner ever said that.
The pictures of the 2 men shown they are 2 different person! 1- The distance of the 2 eyes of the old man is shorter. 2- The distance from the nose to the upper lip of the old man is longer. 3- The lower ears of the old man sliding down while Billy's ears are shorter and steering out wider. 4- The mouth of Billy's is smaller while the old man is much wider. With these differences. it does not mean BTK was killed by Pat Garrette.
Known fact that him and Pat were friends...would you shoot your friend dead without a word to him. Aside from all the other evidence pointing to the kid not being killed on that day, this is paramont to me. Not many people would shoot their friend.
This is anecdotal but I personally know two people that were shot by their friends, one of them dead. Relationships change. Sometimes even family members kill each other.
But that said, there is no evidence to the Kid not being killed that day. This is a common misconception, literally all credible evidence states that he was indeed killed.
There is a certain romanticism in the story and the thought he lived . Billy was a legend in his own time , and even more so after his death. Alot of it has to do with the story that he was just a kid that had to do what he had to do to survive and that he sought revenge for his friend. I believe he died in 1881 by the hand of pat garret and thats where the evidence points. If there is no evidence he survived it didn’t happen
Don't worry about people who can't listen and assimilate information to learn more truth. They can't stand to be wrong or to learn anything they don't know. You do great josh. They want billy to live just like Elvis.
Why Wilson...Elvis is NOT dead; he just went home. Ask Tommy Lee Jones in Men in Black? Lol!👍
@@ExKUKicker lol 😂 I love it
Next thing you're gonna tell me that Jim Morrison is really dead too, instead of living in Africa under the name of Mr. Mojo Risin'....
@@Rollin_L ya sorry he died in that bathtub
@@Wilson-fm4lg My day is ruined. Now I am convinced that Billy the Kid, Elvis and Jim Morrison are really dead. So sad.
Automobiles (as well as motorcycles) did exist in 1881 but, if. I'm not mistaken, they were very slow. Slower than horses.
Catching the end today in my spare time. You make an excellent case for the evidence itself rather than focusing on other factors. Very good video......Shirley. 👍
Ha thanks
Josh, I’d love to hear you do an episode based around those letters from your ancestor in the Civil War.
Great job!
If it wasn't for me personally seeing Billy, the kid working the cash register at McDonald's today, I would say that I agree with you. However, I did ask him if Pat Garrett killed him, and he laughed and said it was not his good friend Pat, but in fact, Mayor McCheese that shot him in the Mcnuggets.
Gotta protect your McNuggets at all cost
It must be reassuring to know that you already kick ass at your new job! Keep 'em coming brother!
Oooo yeaaaaaa!! It's time!!!! Thank you
Hope you like it
@@WildWestExtravaganza come on brotha I always enjoy your hard work! 👍
I love your channel
Thanks!
Love the channel. I subbed a long while back before you started becoming famous. I can't imagine the amount of time it takes to not only prepare for each podcast, but to research each topic. Keep up the great work!
Haha I'm far from famous I assure you! Glad you've stucl around!
Attended college in Portales, NM. Fort Sumner is a short drive west. Billy The Kids grave is still clearly marked. I attended Grad school in Las Cruces. I lived just a mile north on 70 where Garrett was killed.
I think these stories passed down by generations are just that, stories. Either to have a story to tell or possibly to defend Garrett’s reputation. My great grandparents knew Jesse James. Sure there are stories. One thing is for certain they were always fun to listen too and fun to re-tell. I’m 51 now the youngest of the generation of grandchildren and my grandparents were well into their 80’s still telling stories. My grandfather was born in 1894, his father in 1860 and myself in 1972. My point is memories fade. One thing was for certain they were fun to listen and re tell.
So ur conclusion is brushy bill is not Billy the kid ???
Lol yes
Nice closer 😂 that is why I love the content. Love you Josh.
Can't wait for butch Cassidy. I'll donate as soon as I can. Thanks and keep up the good work.
Thanks
I encourage people who watch this video to read Alias Billy The Kid. It's about Bill Roberts and the kid. It's also the basis for the upcoming film Guns 3: Alias Billy The Kid. It's a fun read, but I wouldn't take it as gospel.
I think it's available online for free, too. It used to be, at least.
A couple of years ago I began my Billy the Kid journey believing that it is very possible that BTK was not killed July 14th 1881. Your podcast is a decent part of why I now believe Garrett killed the Kid on that fateful day. I’m glad I found your show and have enjoyed many other stories you’ve shared.
I'm glad you found it too
That's the mystery. I don't think Garret killed him. They were friends. I do believe Billy and him conspired due to Pats political ambitions. Billy went to Mexico. It will always be debated. I believe the true answers lay in Mexico.
@@josephsliger3308 I definitely agree that it'll always be debated!
Damn…. I guess next your gonna tell us Elvis is really dead too 🤷🏻♂️
Ha!
Please respond to this question:
I’ve seen an old VHS recording of an ancestor of De Silva claiming that the assassin hid under a bench & shot BTK with a shotgun. What do you think about this account? Thanks for the epic content & keep up the great work!
I'll try to answer. I think it's a very interesting story but this is exactly what I meant by anecdotal. Just because something is anecdotal does not mean it's not true, but it does mean there's no way to verify it. The personal connection he had with someone who was there is very intriguing but it also directly contradicts the other statements. I'm not saying that Pat didn't blast Billy with a shotgun but I am saying none of the first hand accounts mentioned it but there were several men who claimed Billy was shot in the chest from Garrett's pistol.
I really enjoyed this series very interesting thanks for sharing keep up the great work
Glad you enjoyed it
In 1881 was $500 a big reward? How much would it be in our prices?
Roughly $15,000 according to inflation calculators
@WildWestExtravaganza so it was a fair chunk of cash, a pretty good incentive to collect on it if Garret was having money problems.
Thanks for the reply, you do a great podcast, all the best for the new venture.
Thank you
My moms moms great grand friend from Nigerias aunt from Switzerland said she saw Billy the Kid in a 7/11 in 1991 with Elvis and the pizza hut noid. I believe it!
Heck yeah
Another great video, good luck with the new career.
Thank you
Hell yeah brother
So two things...Number 1: Congrats on making this your full time job Josh. You have a knack for it and the truths of history that can be painful. Number 2: For all those that think Brushy Bill was Billy the Kid can stick this episode in their pipe and smoke it
Right lol!!! I don't know as much about Brushy, but I know alot about Billy, and they were infact two different men..
I would rather smoke some reefer. I don't what happened back then. I want to believe Bill was the Kid, but it's a major stretch.
@ConservativeKirbyXIcKXI Agreed
@@inkdemon64mclemore57 Agreed
@@williamthompson5504 Lol...tha ks
I miss the original but this is still the best western history podcast
I've always figured Billy died at Garrett's hands. Still, it's a fun rabbit hole. I give more credence to Billy surviving than Jesse James, but my personal "winner" is Butch Cassidy.
Thanks for the detailed research bud. I have been Pro Brushy Bill forever simply for the what if factor but also because I could not find such detailed accounts as you out forth. Hats off to you.
I still like to hear the conspiracy theories for fun, though 😅
😊 good luck on the full time channel!
Thanks for listening
I feel that its still a mystery on what happened that fateful momment.
You can tell Brushy Bill Roberts is not Billy the kid. Their jawline shape/ structures are completely different from each other.
I agree that they don't look anything alike but that can be subjective. Others think that they're identical.
When your as famous as billy a picture would be taken
Obviously not, as there was no picture taken
@@WildWestExtravaganza or maybe there was, and it’s sitting in an old tin can
@@WildWestExtravaganza I don’t think billy was brushy but I also don’t think billy was gun down that day with all going on I don’t think Billy’s guard would be down like that
@@WildWestExtravaganzathere’s so much in brushy bill story’s but there’s also lots singers and rappers that forget there own lyrics just saying that in its self don’t make him not billy especially when your old and losing your mind idk I hope it all comes out in my life time I hate not knowing lol
@@steverodriguez4871 Exactly! Here's hoping...
I'm sitting here waiting for Will Farell saying "Did we just become best friends?!"
YEP!
Real eye opener on the death of The Kid.
Garrett was lazy and mistook a young Mexican man for Billy. Garrett shot an innocent young guy but buried him quickly so he wasn't tried for murder and he collected reward. Garrett was a bumbling idiot.
I started rewatching Deadwood this month and just watched your video on Al. Have you ever heard of a place called "Stanton" in Western AZ? It's named for a particularly evil man of a similar profile. You might like the story for your channel
No but I just looked it up and you're right! It would make a great subject. Thanks for the heads up.
@@WildWestExtravaganza have you done one about the Earps and their time in California?
not sure if we will ever know for sure if billy was killed by garret, like others from the wild west we know john hardin and wild bill were killed cause they had their back to the door.
I don't think our friend here (channel narrator) has ever read a book about Billy. There are many written with many facts within them. The details of his facts are displayed are what I would expect to hear from someone who did their research through Google searches and TH-cam
Immediately after Billy was shot, multiple residents of the Fort were brought forward to identify Billy's body to appease Poe. An older Mexican woman who loved Billy like a mother went hysterical. Then Paulita Maxwell, who loved Billy romantically, said nothing, stood stoned faced and silent with no hint of emotion until taken away. You have 2 different woman, one young and one old who both loved Billy. Each had exact opposite contradictory reactions.
Billy was beloved by almost everyone. Especially women, both young and old. He was in Fort Sumner because he felt safe there. He had friends who protected him. Especially the Mexicans, they took Billy's body and buried it the next day, it was not turned over so it couldn't be identified as not being him. This is why everyone who loved him claimed he was dead. So he could live his life peace. It's what he wanted and it's why he made the deal for his pardon, a deal he fulfilled on his end. Let's not forget, he was the only persons ever charged/convicted for any crimes during the Lincoln County War. This is another reason why everyone protected and covered up his death. I can easily make a 48:41 min of in-depth details to the contrary of this video...
However, there is also the investigation conducted by Lincoln County Sheriff Tom Sullivan and deputy Steve Sederwall in 2003. Official case 2003-274. They gathered much physical and DNA evidence to dispute most of the facts to dispute and discredit most of the official story and facts surrounding the history of Billy the Kid. The controversy of this investigation cost these lawmen their badges. They traded their careers for the these truths. And it is a truth they have been sued for these past 2 decades. I think the full extent of this truth will finally come to light when/if Young Guns 3 gets released. Which I contribute to why it's details have been kept a tight secret and the legal suppression of its production. With that said, when in doubt, remember the quote from Orson Welles "I don't think history possibly can be true." ...
Hmm, not sure exactly what you mean as I list many sources (as found in books) within this very video that you're commenting on.
I'm also not sure how you concluded that "multiple residents of the Fort were brought forward to identify Billy's body to appease Poe." Why would Poe need to be appeased? A coroner's jury was assembled, they examined the body and heard from Garrett, his deputies, and Pete Maxwell, and they concluded that Billy the Kid was killed by Pat Garrett. This was not done to appease Poe but to ensure that Garrett would receive the reward.
The facts - as evidenced by the words of people who lived at Fort Sumner at the time, in addition to Billy the Kid literally never being seen again and the coroner's jury report - back up Garrett's claims that he killed Billy the Kid. Not a single person who was at Fort Sumner would ever state that Billy escaped or that the entire thing was a hoax.
Furthermore, as I mentioned a moment ago, Garrett was awarded the $500 bounty on Billy's head. That means that the Territorial Government ALSO believed that Garrett killed the Kid.
These are all facts that can be found in many, many books written about Billy the Kid. The type of books that rely on primary sources and have extensive notes, bibliographies, and indexes. These are also facts that literally every single historian agrees with.
In contrast, the theories that you're putting forward are all pure speculation. There is zero evidence that Billy escaped the clutches of Pat Garrett in 1881. There is zero evidence that the citizens of Fort Sumner all conspired to cover up the alleged hoax. And, of course, Billy the Kid was never seen again after 1881.
If you want to discuss theories, then I'm all ears. But what was the purpose of insulting me by saying I never read a book on the Kid and got all my information from Google?