964 Turbo Clutch is a Pain In The.... Aircooled Porsche 911 Turbo Life
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 5 ก.ย. 2024
- Replacing my Porsche 911 Turbo Clutch with standard pull style clutch turns out to be a right pain in the....
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Parts used:
FVD 964 Turbo FVD Exclusive Sport Clutch Kit - For Light Weight Flywheel (583 ft/lbs. max.)
964 RS Fidanza single mass flywheel.
Standard 964 Turbo master cylinder (I believe) The bore measures 19mm
964 Turbo new slave cylinder
964 Turbo new fork and all new hardware
RS release bearing and guide tube.
#964turbo #clutch #911turbo
Parts used:
FVD 964 Turbo FVD Exclusive Sport Clutch Kit - For Light Weight Flywheel (583 ft/lbs. max.)
964 RS Fidanza single mass flywheel.
Standard 964 Turbo master cylinder (I believe) The bore measures 19mm
964 Turbo new slave cylinder
964 Turbo new fork and all new hardware
RS release bearing and guide tube.
Missed: 1x Jay.
That 964 is ridiculously gorgeous
Isn't it though? 👌
This car actually excites me just to see how nice it looks! Love that these guys actually slam what are already some crazy bits of machinery!
Keeping a huge part of the game alive! Hats off to them!
Use an elastic band on the clutch lever, works every time and won't fall off👌
Nice. That will work.
@@driftworks That won't fix the long travel, though
Bash the trigger channel on the scope on Haltech and decide if you want to open the sensor gap slightly and lower the trigger threshold slightly so you have a more robust setup.
Sounds like you know what you're on about! We'll take a look. Cheers 👍
@@driftworks Go into NSP/trigger system/trigger activation and trigger arming voltage tables. Hit the ? button while in there and the Help document gives a good representation of the thresholds youre setting. You can then put it in scope mode and see what your signal looks like at cranking speed (disable injectors) and at idle speed against the thresholds you have set.
If it looks good: you could then increase the crank sensor gap back to 0.8-1.0mm and see how the actual signal drops and how you would need to drop your arming voltage to suit. This should allow you to run more sensor gap which could be more robust in the long term. Worth a play to help you with potential future trouble shooting either way. You can always revert the gap and setting to what works if you get in a muddle.
Are your slave and master cylinders a matching pair? A larger bore master would push more fluid for a shorter stroke.
I came to say the same thing. +1 this.
I believe so. The slave was brand new from Porsche for my VIN and the master seems standard and measures 19mm bore, which I beleive is standard. If none of my other ideas work out, we'll just change ratio.
@@driftworks who fitted the concentric slave cylinder, I wonder wether the master was changed to suit.
We did. We didn't change the master, but it already had the OS Giken clutch fitted.
... worth noting that as the clutch beds in the travel required to release will reduce slightly. New clutches are typically slightly over clamped when new. If the clutch cover is uprated you will also get more flex in everything. I'd say drive it and give it chance to bed in and it might come good.
The 10mm play at the top is normal otherwise your release bearing would always see pressure there for wearing down the bearing.
See if you can see the plunger on the slave and measure the travel. talk to the manufacture of the clutch and see what they recommend adjusting the master cylinder to for the correct length of travel of the slave. Might also be listed in the instructions but this is what we do on honda's not sure if you can see the slave plunger on the porsche.
Decades ago, I fitted a new master cylinder to a Ford Escort and had a similar problem to the one you are having. It turned out that during the model year Ford had altered the bore of both the master and slave cyl, the new M/C did not displace the enough fluid for the old slave to travel fully, thus the pedal to the floor did not fully disengage the clutch..... A bit of a long shot...but...?
Two of my favourite TH-cam machining channels are This Old Tony and Blondihacks - both definitely worth a subscription!
Of all your cars this my favourite, right from that epic first video in Japan ❤
I've had similar issues with a couple of clutches
At a guess your SMF is thinner than the DMF meaning that the clutch cover is closer to the engine than it previously was so the slave will have to travel further to disengage the plates
Or the new clutch cover requires more travel to disengage than the previous/original clutch (its worth asking the manufacturer for specs)
Now if you have the available travel in the slave you could fit a larger master cylinder but that will make the pedal really heavy so a smaller diameter(longer travel) slave would be the better option
When you have power gorgeous cars and can handle all that power and actually able drive the tyres off them 🙏🏻🇬🇧👍🏻😉👏👏👏
Shoutout to another viewer of Inheritance Machining!!! Love his channel.
I think the answer is in that hat piece you discuss 2 mins in that varies between the SMF and DMF. In the BMW world, I know when people run lightened m20 flywheels on M5X engines with a ZF box, people run weird combinations of throwout bearings because the hat height of them varies which varies the bite point.
My advice would be to consider the varying offsets of the different flywheels and other parts and consider if either is right or a custom length tube is required.
my thoughts too dude!
It’s an incredibly cool car, kudos fella. And, for having the balls to take on pretty serious work yourselves - I’m sure you’ll fix it in the end as you guys always do, but I’d be nervous about doing anything other put in fuel and occasionally drive like a merchant banker. 👍🏼
jay is comedy gold
Excellent episode guys. What about the issue og replacing the section of clutch line and new AnE fittings? Maybe the larger diameter decreased the overall line pressure??? Great channel fellows I love it! and You still own my favorite Porsche on TH-cam. Geno San Jose Ca.
Best to check the timing offset is still correct in the ECU with a strobe after changing the trigger wheel.
hi guys had same issue with my 964 broken pin in pedal box, good luck
Kurtis from CEE Will be chuffed with the shout-out, he's a drifty boy I think! Love his channel and Inheritance machining too.
Great videos on the 964 as well; two videos in a week? We're spoiled!
Need more of the e46 v10
Assuming the master & slave have same bore then I'd say the fork needs more throw. Or the RS bearing isn't the same dimensions as the Turbo one.
Shim on the throw out bearing 25:36 , have to do that on t56 gearboxes depending on the clutch and flywheel used to get the correct travel on the pressure plate, guessing the same thing can be done on that gearbox too.
That's a concentric slave. We deal with shimming them regularly as alot of my cars are converted to concentric slave. But this car is a pull type clutch fork and external slave cylinder.
@@driftworks thought it would of still worked in front of the bearing to increase the pull and reduce the pedal travel in doing so, interested to see what you figure for the fix.
It would if there was slack (too much free play), but there isn't, so all it does is the same thing as extending the slave rod.
2 other TH-cam channels I watch too, very talented guys, I've learned a lot from machining videos, it's a great community often linked to the automotive world too. Shout out to them 👍
I am absolutely no help with the clutch issue but that is one cracking motor.
Finishes the video with some tyre smoke 👌 even if only mild
Cutting edge Australia is the business.
Good taste boi ! ❤
I have no idea what you've done wrong but what I do know is that its driving me mental and its not even my car. I look very forward to learning what it is and how you fixed it asap.
i imagine it may require a "can you just" at some point 🤣
I've had similar problems on 964's in the past and have resolved it by power bleeding the system.
Clutch pedal should return to be level with brake pedal. If not there is a problem & you don’t get a full stroke of the (self adjusting) hydraulic mech. The pedal pivot can wear giving slack or the roll pin can wear, otherwise the slave cylinder can be the cause.
Being you had to limit the gap for the crank sensor trigger wheel out of spec to get the car running maybe the whole flywheel and clutch assembly is in the wrong position and may need to be shimmed causing the disengagement issue.
I have some slack in mine, but I believe related to needing another bleed. That seems excessive to me.
at the clutch pedal, there is an adjustment rod, you need to play with that, it'll allow you to alter the bite point up or down
and the slack in the clutch pedal 'free play' is normal, ideally you should have 5-15mm of free play on the pedal
Where is the adjustment rod?
@@driftworks should be back of the clutch pedal, if youtube would allow photos in comments life would be easier XD
There isn't anything like that on the 964. The only adjustment is of the spring assist.
@@driftworks well this is awful news, sorry
Great video as always , and what a way too end it 💨💨😂😂😂👌🏼👌🏼
Going by the comments , any input I may have been able too give has already been mentioned, hope you guys figure it out
I did once fit a centre plate the wrong way around ( dumb mistake I know ) and it had the exact same symptoms , although I am sure jay has fitting it correctly
Sorry, perhaps I did not make myself clear... In the case of the Escort... the original slave was still in place and the new master cylinder was of a reduced bore and thus on full stroke the master did not displace enough fluid to fully extend the slave cylinder pushrod, thus the clutch could not fully disengage.. Which may not be your issue but thought worth a shot..?
Phil and jay yous have some patients
That signoff :D
I'm not sure if there is another part but it is likely an issue with the fulcrum location on the clutch fork.
Why wouldn't you just drill and tap to allow the orb to an fitting to be threaded in? Guess the result is the same. As far as engagement - does the single mass flywheel use a different clutch master or clutch fork? Also, the -4 an lines will give you more volume but less pressure at the clutch slave, which may limit the stroke of the slave . For BMWs you can search parts by model using Real OEM, and I am wondering if a similar website exits for Porsches, which would be a great resource for parts matching. Or just get a diagram from the dealer with part numbers and make sure everything matches a stock single mass clutch/flywheel setup.
If you need any adjustment, it should be on the rod in the master cylinder. Changing the pedal fulcrum point would be a pain in the studs.
We've done exactly that since the video. I just haven't had time to put it back together yet. 👍
@@driftworks Ask me how many times I’ve adjusted a Cooper S ( The original) to achieve the same result 😂 Well done fellas, and thanks for the vids 👍🏻👌🏻
I have noticed that you mentioned you got the 583ft/lbs clutch kit from FVD and that will come with sintered metal plates, but in your previous video it shows you have what appears to be a normal organic friction material type of disc, I wonder if thats your problem, as different thicknesses would alter your biting point so dramatically, half a mil of difference on the clutch side would translate to centimeters on the pedal side.
There are two. It's a 583ft Organic kit www.fvd.net/de-en/FVD11610311/fvd-exclusive-sport-clutch-kit-for-light-weight-flywheel-583-ft-lbs-max.html
My dad and I came across a similar issue on his TR6. We extended the slave cylander rod to allow bite in the pedal to not be at the floor. I think we extended it quite a bit - like 1/2 or 3/4 inch (yes I'm an American sorry for the maths there haha) . Worked great. I know its not the same situation, but thought it may help somehow
that's insane work with the clutch fork!
what's the "correct" procedure to mount it? does porsche dealers have some specialized tools? surely they wouldn't go through this trouble every time
You need to use race tap to hold the fork been doing it that way for the last 20years
10mm free play is normal for the clutch
Why didn't you get a 993 rs flywheel ?
Cheers.
I did get the RS Flywheel. FVD sent the wrong one unfortunately. It didn't come with the timing trigger wheel and I managed to find a solution I could get in a couple of days.. The RS Flywheel I've ordered for my GT3 has the timing trigger wheel.
Does the Master cylinder have an adjustment on the end of the rod?
I'm surprised the clutch extension on the slave cylinder didn't work. The extension is directly between the slave and the fork, right? No it doesn't change the amount of effective travel but it should start 8 mm further and end 8 mm further, taking off 8 mm pseudo slack.
It doesn't work like that as the natural return of the clutch spring pushes the fork and rod back to the same position. The stroke remains the same.
Just glazing that disc up real nice eh Phil?? 😂
Thats normal play. You should always reverse bleed the system. Inject fluid to the master from the slave.
PHIL! Fabulous content as always!! :) What are the tyres on the car?
Cheers. They are AD09. There's a whole episode on fitting them 👍
Cutting edge enigineering... that is adictive af
Change to a larger master cylinder. Double check engine timing with a timing light.
I’ve got an uprated Sachs clutch on my 996 Turbo, and it’s not the nicest thing. It’s very bitey.
It seems pretty driveable so far. But then I am coming from the most horrible clutch engagement on the planet.
I think a different clutch fork must be available, unless the other flywheel thicker and pushed the whole assembly further in ?
Could you shorten the splined stub shaft instead , again to move the whole assembly further out there by raising the bite( difficult to measure clearances )
The release bearing housing is specific to the single mass flywheel, so it should all work.
Today on driftworks orange laces edition 😂
Abom79 also has a good channel about machining
You're missing the tilton pedal box ;)
Can't say I haven't thought about converting it to top mount pedals.
@@driftworks I have an 83 that I'm swapping the G50 box into. I'll be using a tilton pedal box. Lots of good reviews on the forums.
Interesting video. What throw out bearing as not in your list? Would it not be something that changes the distance (shortens) between the standard clutch fork and the flywheel (as that’s all standard bits in your list) that will effect pedal travel. Thinner /lighter flywheel, thinner clutch, lower clutch forks. Could you measure the clutch finger height or thrust bearing height against standard.
It's in the list. RS for single mass 👍
I never had a standard clutch. The car came with the push converted OS Giken.
Is the clutch fork an original one or a aftermarket one it makes a difference 👍
All the most expensive brand new from Porsche parts.
@@driftworks to me it seems you have a problem with the clutch fork not giving you the clutch clearance don’t think it anything to do with the slave or master cylinders👍
might want to post the list of parts for the beards to take a look at.
Sachs EMS:
Durchmesser: 240 mm
Ergänzungsartikel/Ergänzende Info: mit Druckplattenschrauben
Ergänzungsartikel/Ergänzende Info: mit Einmassenschwungrad
Ergänzungsartikel/Ergänzende Info: mit Kupplungsdruckplatte
Ergänzungsartikel/Ergänzende Info: für Verwendung im Motorsport
Ergänzungsartikel/Ergänzende Info 2: ohne Ausrücklager
Can you adjust the actual stroke of the lever in relation to the master cylinder?
Not without re-drilling the pedal or lever bar.
Unless someone has modified the master internals to run the previous setup..........or its that modified pipe causing problems
Had an issue on a previous vw, tried to modify the pipe, clutch bite was right at the bottom, we bled it till blue in the face, no different. Fitted oem pipe, sorted problem
Theres an MPL Slave upgrade for the firmer pedal 😉
Cheers John. I can't see how a short section of the feed pipe being larger or smaller would effect the throw of the slave. The MPL slave would put the bite even further down to the point you definitely wouldn't get gears.
@@driftworks does the diameter change between the welded fitting, those AN fittings/flexi pipe from the factory pipe?
Might sound silly, but did you clamp off the breather pipe on top of the resevoir?
The MPL slave is just to lighten up the firm pedal.
@@driftworks or its the rollpin on the pedal, common failure on 964........might explain the slop in the pedal.
Yeah we checked the rollpin (or Jay did).
The MPL slave makes the pedal lighter because it's a slightly smaller diameter piston. The side effect of this is that you have to push the pedal slightly further to disengage. I need the exact opposite.
Is there a slave cylinder available with a smaller bore. It will give more lever action for the same pedal movement.
@UKMechanic If you take the volume of fluid in a larger bore master cylinder and put it in a small bore slave cylinder, the volume means the actuator rod is pushed further out giving more clutch lever travel.
I'm sure I'll be able to find a smaller slave or bigger master. That's the next plan if my current modification to the master rod doesn't work out.
Did you change the the master cylinder when you fitted the push style clutch.
The car came with the OS Giken. We've measured the bore of the master and it looks like 19mm which would make it standard I beleive.
What happened to Drift games is heart breaking
would you guess have any idea how to help the drift games lads its so bad what happened the fire was so bad
I enjoy a manual machining channel also. Abom79 has some great content and incredible tool collection.
Whats with all the bot comments 😂
Like Before I Watch…
This car seems to never be properly in 100%.
Your channel and Vins (vin_ tra) are really my favs on youtube 👍🏼 keep it up
Wonderful entrance 😃👍