That moment in Stormcage is so brilliantly acted by Alex Kingston; it’s River’s birthday and her father unexpectedly shows up hence her expression of awe and happiness. You can see her wait for Rory to start talking because she doesn’t even know if Rory knows he’s her dad yet and she doesn’t want to spoil that but she’s still stunned because her Dad’s visiting her on her birthday 🥹
If you go back to the episode with the Tardis in a woman's body "The Doctors Wife" at the end when she is dying on the floor she whispers something to Rory... you can hear him saying "The only water in the forest is the river." all confused or something on that line making reference to this moment in time.
“The anger of a good man is not a problem, good men have too many rules” “good men don’t need rules, today is not the day to find out why I have so many.” Ooof
Now that you’ve seen this, I can mention that there’s a message thread that gets passed around on Facebook and the like about that scene at the end of “Day of the Moon” when River shoots a Silence without looking at it. Thing is, you can’t remember the Silence if you’re not looking at them, so how did she know to shoot? Simple: because Rory saw it and looked afraid. River saw *her father* afraid of something and so she instantly killed it.
@@benjames9158 Which doesn't preclude other people sleeping in it later. Either way, I do wonder when and why he swung by Gallifrey to get his childhood cot.
I think the bassinet says "Hello Sweetie". At least that is my head cannon. But he also would of seen the prayer leaf and the word Song which in conjunction with Idris' last words "The only water in the forest is the River". His brain clicked it together. Both the the Doctor and River slept in that cot at one time, even if it was just a flesh avatar River remembered it.
"Make it make sense!" Okay, here goes: "Wibbley-wobbley, timey-wimey!" 😉 Rewatching all the River episodes would definitely be worthwhile at some point! There are also videos on TH-cam that show the adventures in order from _River's_ point of view. Just don't watch them _yet_ because, as you might well guess, _spoilers!_
It all makes sense. Yes, River knew her parents all along. She has to lie. We were even told at the start of this episode that "today" was her birthday! Rivers name isnt on the crib. Thats a misdirection. River was pointing at the leaf INSIDE the crib.
Moffat: "So there's a mysterious child. And Amy's just had a child. And we don't know _who_ River Song really is. And we have a character from the Gamma Forests who's inscribed 'Melody Pond' - the _name_ of Amy's daughter - on this prayer leaf. But the only water in the Forest is the _River._ …So who might River Song be?" Us: "No idea"
what i liked is the joke that was hidden and took a long time to complete... when the 10th saw River Song he said he Points and Laughs at Archeologists... when he sees amy's baby for 1st time he points and smiles/laughs :) Pond/River Melody/Song
Yes she did know that they were her parents. Go back to the first time Amy and River were first in the Tardis. That is the Time of the Angels and compare it to when River met Donna. River was very familiar with Amy. River also went out of her way to save Amy with the teleporter in Flesh and Stone. The child was River. This was already answered in the child's room in the orphanage as she had a picture of Amy in her room.
Fun fact, I met the blue guy he's super sweet. But he wasn't originally supposed to be in this episode. He was originally going to be Captain Jack. It was gonna be the explanation of why the Face of Boe is just a head.
@@phillipchallis966 I love that he didn’t even know who she was but he lied to her so she didn’t die thinking she’d dedicated her whole life to nothing. Which sadly she essentially has. She joined an army in the hope she’d meet this man again who’s influenced her entire life, and he has no idea who she is
@obiwankenobi687 probably my favorite part of the episode, along with River dressing him down. It reminds me of Rory telling the Doctor that people put their lives in danger because they want to impress him.
I love that River tells Rory it’s her birthday at the beginning, the puzzle is missing at this point as you now know but the doctor makes the kissing noises to be like ‘oh crap, I’ve been kissing and flirting with my best friends daughter for two seasons now this is awkward ‘. As for the cot, the camera makes it look like we’re supposed to be looking at the gallifreyian writing on the side but river is actually directing the doctors eyes to the prayer leaf inside the cot. Amy makes the same mistake, my head canon is it’s just some magic Harry pot cot where the writing on the side matches the name of whatever baby is inside it at the time. As it doesn’t make 100% sense because later on river does make mention of the fact the writing on the side won’t translate
It's also her getting the Doctor to connect the dots that she is a Time Lady (albeit a human one). Which is why I love the cot scene. The Doctor is from his perspective no longer alone.
Also wondered if it's possible for River to be able to read Gallifreyan. And this by her pointing to the writing on the writing on the cot she's saying I can read this, can't you read your own language. Knowing the Tardis couldn't translate it she could only read it if she knew it otherwise. If I'm reaching, and I'm completely wrong about this no worries, it's just a thought I've had, mainly because she doesn't reach in to show the Dr the cloth she just points to the cot itself. Again I could be completely wrong which would be fine.
@@Loulizabeth That makes a lot of sense! I've always wondered why they so heavily misdirected our attention to the cot. I thought it was just the director misjudging the shot, and that it should have been from a higher angle so that we'd see the prayer leaf inside the cot as well as the writing on the side of it. That would leave it ambiguous what River's referring to until she picks up the leaf and hands it to Amy; but as shot, it does seem she's directing both the Doctor and Amy's attention to the side of the cot, and only later draws attention to the leaf.
The text on the cradle was a red herring - it's the Doctor's name in Gallifreyan. River was directing his attention to her own name on the prayer leaf within.
Before the doctor gets in the tardis and leaves he pops his head out and points at River and laughs which is a call back to him saying "i point and laugh at archaeologists" for those who missed it 😂
River and the Doctor have been meeting at different points in time. Remember, in past episodes, she already knew him. And at the beginning of this episode, she knew what was going to happen. That's because she's from the future. And you can't change your own future.
I remember shortly before this episode aired I came across some speculation online that River might be Amy and Rory's daughter. I dismissed that possibility out of hand, thinking it was way too "out there" even for Steven Moffat. I was wrong. 😅
26:55 _Right_ ? The face of every viewer at that moment :). This was a sort of "mid-series finale" so at the time we had to wait more than two _months_ to see what happened next. Cracking episode IMO. Love the recruiting through time - he doesn't need to hurry of course, "Time machine. I backed up a bit". Surprised no one on Patreon had filled you in on the "connection" stuff (which is all laid out in previous episodes) but maybe they were being _super_ cautious about spoilers (which is fair). (the overall premise + 11's remark about rules reminds me of a bit from Terry Pratchett: "Something Vimes had learned as a young guard drifted up from memory. If you have to look along the shaft of an arrow from the wrong end, if a man has you entirely at his mercy, then hope like hell that man is an evil man. Because the evil like power, power over people, and they want to see you in fear. They want you to know you're going to die. So they'll talk. They'll gloat. They'll watch you squirm. They'll put off the moment of murder like another man will put off a good cigar. So hope like hell your captor is an evil man. A good man will kill you with hardly a word.")
Make it make sense. Lol It makes total sense. So well written. Even if you don't get it now (and that's okay), you will get it. I thoroughly enjoyed your reaction!
That whole two parter is worth rewatching when you know River is Amy's daughter. There are so many interactions where River is doing everything she can to protect or comfort her mom 😭💙💙
There’s a nice little callback to Silence in the Library. The Tenth Doctor said to River that he points and laughs at archaeologists. Which is what the Eleventh Doctor did to baby River.
Most of your confusion can be cleared up by remembering that when you're a time travel, you don't always meet people in the same order they meet you. You can meet someone when they're 20, then 2, then 40, then 10.
26:51 "Wibbly wobbly timey wimey" Welcome to the Tardis, Whovian. We had the same expression when this episode aired Live. We will be glad to help you through this process of understanding the strangeness that IS, Prof. River Song (Melody Pond).
remember the episode "The Big Bang"? Has 2 meanings now after this episode. First clue on Melody was when River was breaking back into prison and she said its her birthday
When you said angry 11 reminded you of 10 - I always found 11s anger way more convincing than 10s. 10 would just shout at the bad guys a lot. 11 would straight up murder them (and sometimes did).
The headless monks were needed because they don't register as lifeforms (stated in-show). This was essential in the plan to have the doctor's group let down their guard and some of them to go home.
I loved getting a “*sigh* okay?” every time Steven Moffat added a random creative new character every few minutes in the first half. And your reaction to the tongue joke was priceless. Probably the filthiest joke in the show’s history.😅
The Doctor's Wife... "there are no ponds in the Gamma Forest, the only water is the River." River "hasn't seen the bassinet in a while... like since she was hours old. Time is... confusing when tomorrow is yesterday. "I just want all the answers" - yeah that will never happen. There are always questions.
River’s timeline is in reverse of the Doctors’. Up to this point she is getting younger each time he/they have seen her. It makes more sense after ‘Let’s Kill Hitler’ but she started to get putting the pieces together.
2 fun facts in the 2nd episode where River appears she takes great care of Amy like mother and daughter and at the beginning of the episode when she talks to Rory she says that today it was her birthday the same day the child was born
I think this is the only Doctor Who twist that I have ever guessed in advance of the revelation. Something clicked when the Gamma Forest woman said she was translating Amy's daughter's name into the language of the forest. I suddenly recalled the thing that the Tardis lady said about the "only water in the forest". In many ways I wish I hadn't because it is such a fantastic shock for almost everyone else. I did actually cry out at the time and had to assure everybody else in the room that they didn't want to know why. I did write it down though for boasting rights later on!
Captain Jack and Ood Sigma were supposed to be in this episode. Jack never made it due to availability of John Barrowman but I’m pretty sure Ood sigmas scene got cut, the ood are actually in the credits at the end so must have been a last minute thing
@ to be honest it wouldn’t, we know from torchwood that’s not how it works. I like the idea that jack just ages so much, lives so long he ends up evolving into this massive alien head. Torchwood would contradict the plan Moffat had for beheading jack
Love this episode ahah. One of my favourites from the Moffat era. It’s really whacky and heavily leans into the Wibbly Wobbly Timey Wimey nature of the show. It sort of feels like the classic hero team up format in a sci-fi show. I remember River being Revealed as Melody Pond and how mind blown I was because it’s such a clever twist that Moffat had apparently planned from the beginning. It’s also shocking because, we are utterly devastated that Amy and Rory lost their baby only to find out she was there all along beside them. Also Strax being a nurse and helping the enemy makes sense because he’s a medic. Medics will often treat soldiers on the battlefield, even if they are the enemy. In this case the Sontarans prefer their enemies to die in the glory of battle and to die an honourable death. Great to see your reaction as always 🤗. xx
This is going to be a long one...BUT. A lot of commenters have talked about the bassinet, and while I think their theories could be right, I've always believed the answer is much simpler, and it is the fact that she is able to read and write (and presumably speak) Old High Gallifreyan. Before this episode, one would assume that she learnt everything she knows from her time with The Doctor -- in the "The Time of Angels" two-parter in series 5, she summoned The Doctor and Amy through a black box recorder, upon which was written, in Old High Gallifreyan, the words: "Hello, Sweetie." But think of the importance of the lost language of the Time Lords to The Doctor. See how he reacts when anything to do with his people are mentioned -- even in this episode: he becomes defensive, agitated that the child could be in any way, a Time Lord, because of what being a Time Lord means to him. Does anyone really think that a companion, any companion, would ever be SO important to The Doctor that he would teach them the intimate details of the lost (to everyone but him and The TARDIS) language of his people? Before the Time War, perhaps, but unlikely. After?...Absolutely not. In that scene, I truly don't believe that the Gallifreyan glyphs have any real meaning -- they could be saying anything from the theorised real name of The Doctor (which we know that River knows because of the Silence in the Library two-parter in Series 4), to an inside joke from the props department literally saying: "RIVER SONG IS MELODY POND" -- but to me, it is an acknowledgement of a shared linage and camaraderie that is assumed because of that. Language is often dumbed down to simple reading, writing, and speaking, but it is so much more than that: it creates a kinship, however much acknowledged, between the people who share it. It creates codes and cultures between people such that those who do not know that language might not even fully understand even if they try to learn to write or speak it. It's part of an experience that has to be lived, not read in a textbook nor butchered trying to translate it into someone else's language, and thus while it binds the people who speak and live the language, it also ostracises those who don't. Amy is the audience surrogate as usual, and, throughout the exchange between River and The Doctor, tries to glean from the bassinet the secret code and conversation that River and The Doctor are sharing with their eyes and body language, and despite her effort -- you can see it in her facial expressions -- she remains confused. River tells her with certainty that The TARDIS "won't" translate Gallifreyan, not can't, but won't. In the past, in Series 2, for instance with 'The Satan Pit' two-parter, we saw a language that the TARDIS COULDN'T translate. But that isn't the case here. The TARDIS knows Gallifreyan -- it is as much her experience as it is the Time Lords' and The Doctor's -- so of course she won't share that with Amy. Whether for her own reasons, or for her reverence and 'love' for The Doctor -- or even of the Time Lords as a whole. I've read online that it was written in Doctor Who stories that Gallifreyan sounds musical to humans who hear it, and it's interesting if you watch the scene back, because the score, when The Doctor feels hostile towards River, acts accordingly, but the minute that River physically reaches out to him, and says "I am telling you," it is replaced with a much lighter, hopeful, even FRIENDLIER soundtrack. A sign of acceptance and understanding. One that is further proved by the fact that though they are speaking in a language that everyone around them understands, no one does -- as though it is a representation of the codes and cultures that they share from being Time Lords.
The reason should now be clear why River could not be at Demons Run until the end. She could not be there while her younger self was there. Events had to run their course.
No, river couldn't be there because she knew she would be there at the end. In the entire episode, Melody is a flesh avatar. She's not the real melody. It causes no paradox to interact with your flesh avatar.
@mrdr0161 In that case, where was the real baby Melody/River? Was she nearby or far away already? Now that I think about it (hopefully not a spoiler), the Doctor has interacted with his other selves before. Was Melody/River also able to become involved in her timeliness?
@@ronfehr7899 I don't know. Maybe they replaced her with a flesh avatar as soon as she was born. Maybe when they took her from Amy at the beginning of the episode, they gave her back a flesh avatar. But in the episode, the Melody Rory took from Kovarian, who he and Amy cried over and the Doctor talked to, who they put to sleep in the Doctor's cot, it was never the real Melody.
Ah this episode, the reveals, the nrw characters, the favour yhose characters take up on here, Jenny, the Silurian, I always forget the purpose of the marine, Strax the Sontaran, never rewatched this episode but always remember the details. Thr archaeologist, the Doctors Wife, River's reaction on her birthday at fhr prison, the tardis part I wasn't sure of id that or the cot if something timelord transferred but the tardis makes sense. The forest of thr angels. Yeah I do think River River but yeah Melody isn't a Galifrian word so its Song aka Pond to River. Some languages with different words and if they don't have one you hear the other language word. Her nor showing up to ruin events. River/Doctor connection because yes he did with their child but he is happy as he knows he has saved her from the villains clutches so he knows he can/does in the end. I think it's a good secret/twist and time going crazy but it does make sense. Ah yes the astronaut thry explain it of course. Yes you have seen all episodes yes end of season stuff. I always wonder if these are second viewings, or the patreon video uploaded vut seems to be second viewing which makes sense.
I think the only reason the Doctor acted a bit weird when he realized that River is Amy's daughter is really just because he's basically been making out with Amy's daughter. As for relationships, it's been frequently suggested that River and the Doctor are an actual couple, except that they haven't moved in together to have a 9 to 5 job and a family.
It's clear from her first scene in this ep that, by this point in River's time line, they've been out on multiple dates, though of course we're not told if they've ever, er, "stayed in". Or whether, from the Doctor's POV, those dates were after he learned of her parentage or before. For further hints, we have to look to the minisodes... =:o}
The bassinet is irrelevant. It was a red herring. The prayer leaf is what she shows the Doctor, what he reads. The bassinet was the Doctor's when he was a baby.
Want another twist? Here goes: Way back, Dorian sold River a time vortex manipulator taken from the wrist of a handsome time agent. Dorian has a working relationship with the headless monks. The headless monks cut off people's head and put them in boxes. The Face of Boe is a head in a box. Jack Harkness was a handsome time agent. Jack Harkness is the Face of Boe. There. You're welcome.
The doctor has kissed river before, that was the kissy face. And she wasn't not there because she was angry, she couldn't be there because she would cross her own timeline.
Indeed. The River that Rory talks to at the beginning does not wait a few hours and then go to Demon's Run. That is an older River, who has already been there and, to borrow her own line from another episode, remembers it well. How else could she tell Rory even the little she did divulge?
I know so many RTD fans who stopped watching at this point in the show. Some picked it up again in the later years and others have never watched it since
So, it wasn't that he wouldn't be happy. It's if he didn't fail, nothing else with her would have occurred. More info is coming in later episodes, but it's one of those things where you have just enough pieces to know there's a picture, but not what it looks like.
28:28 Whovian don't ask unless you want it: #Spoilers We can Explain it but it WILL spoil future Episodes. 30:29 The Cot had the Doctor's REAL Name in Gallifreyan. Their is only 1 person in the Whole Universe he would tell it to. Melody's name was on the Prayer Leaf given to Amy by the Soldier of the Gamma Forest.
Not inside the TARDIS. It’s because she was conceived in the vortex. Think of it like putting a chicken in an off oven. Nothing happens. But turn it on and it cooks. So imagine an on oven is the equivalent of the TARDIS actually in the vortex. Not just standing still. Then you get a semi Timelord
Gallifrey Gals just finished a rewatch of the timeline through Rivers perspective this time. It might be worth checking out to help make sense of things.
You will never know what was written on the crib thingy.. it was written in gallifreyian. There is no English translation. But my guess is it was river songs name, because the last baby that was in it, was Amy and Rory 's baby.
Fun fact: Alex Kingston kept the reveal a secret so Arthur and Karen’s reactions were genuine when filming. One of the best reveals in the show’s history!
Not true. Kingston doesn't have the authority to demand the main actors not know viral information. 99% of rumours that reactions were genuine while filming something aren't true. The writers and director wouldn't want to do that because they can't predict the genuine reaction of the actors. Karen and Arthur could've burst into laughter and that wouldn't make a good ending to the episode. They were actually told when they received the script for the episode, as was Matt Smith.
@@MatthewVlossak This isn’t true. Arthur and Karen aren’t characters, river being Amy’s child would not provoke emotional, teary reactions of shock like in the episode. They’d be like wtf and giggling like idiots. The story is half true, the crew on set didn’t know what was going to happen but Arthur, Karen and Matt all did. They only got the script pages that day however. So didn’t know the ending until that point, I believe it was written that she was his wife. And they’re supposed to act shocked. But on the day of filming the three of them got the real ending script pages. And of course Alex knew from when they started filming series 6. There’s a lie that goes round that she knew from the very start of her story in series 4. She didn’t.
The internet has worked together to compile the River timeline, so you can, at some point, watch everything from her perspective by following that episode order.
This was one of my favorite, if not my favorite matt Smith episode, although David tenant is my favorite matt smith a close second, this and the final episode with amy and rory are possibly my top favorites
oh back when dr who was brilliant, i remember seeing that episode the first time made me cry at the end and yes when river first showed up when she died this was the hole plan from the start
Yes - River did know all the time . There are still things to come but if you do watch her reactions in earlier episodes you wil notice some of her reactions make far more sense.
The prayer leaf with her name on it was in the bassinette, the camera showing us the galephrayan writing was a misdirection, the name was in it not on it
The surprise of conclusion when you keep processing the events is that the show writers had this plot point designed and written out from the start of Amy Pond's character creation. They sat on this long game for like 2 or 3 seasons. Now, I don't think they meant to take River's character this far when they first introduced her with the Library episode. Dr. Who likes to drop future teasers but doesn't always hold themselves to following through with it when he talks about his cannon. "Oh I once met so and so. I guess I was the first one who invented this or that" And you can get away with that because the show can go on for another 100 years so who knows when someone down the pike wants to cherry pick one of the many plot seeds they like to spread around.
this was one of the most wild episodes. i remember having to wait like 3 months or so for the next one. told you this season was one that has to be rewatched lol
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That moment in Stormcage is so brilliantly acted by Alex Kingston; it’s River’s birthday and her father unexpectedly shows up hence her expression of awe and happiness. You can see her wait for Rory to start talking because she doesn’t even know if Rory knows he’s her dad yet and she doesn’t want to spoil that but she’s still stunned because her Dad’s visiting her on her birthday 🥹
If you go back to the episode with the Tardis in a woman's body "The Doctors Wife" at the end when she is dying on the floor she whispers something to Rory... you can hear him saying "The only water in the forest is the river." all confused or something on that line making reference to this moment in time.
The Doctor's kissing noises was him being shocked and saying, you're Amy's daughter and we were fooling around.
And I have kissed both of your parents
"Would you like me to repeat the question?"
One of the coldest lines in the show. I love Rory so much.
As if I couldn’t fall in love with Rory more!
It took a while for Rory to get cool, but when he got there, he REALLY got there
“The anger of a good man is not a problem, good men have too many rules” “good men don’t need rules, today is not the day to find out why I have so many.” Ooof
Now that you’ve seen this, I can mention that there’s a message thread that gets passed around on Facebook and the like about that scene at the end of “Day of the Moon” when River shoots a Silence without looking at it. Thing is, you can’t remember the Silence if you’re not looking at them, so how did she know to shoot? Simple: because Rory saw it and looked afraid. River saw *her father* afraid of something and so she instantly killed it.
The cot was the Dr's when he was a baby. River saying "haven't seen this in a very long time" is about her being a baby (Melody) in this episode.
It could have also been his child's and Susan's: a family heirloom.
He says he slept in it
@@benjames9158 Which doesn't preclude other people sleeping in it later. Either way, I do wonder when and why he swung by Gallifrey to get his childhood cot.
6:14 "Hello Rory..." That's so sad... she really want to say the actual term... she's been holding it on for so long...
Also she does say it’s her birthday, rewatching this one episode keeps on giving on a second watch
I think the bassinet says "Hello Sweetie". At least that is my head cannon. But he also would of seen the prayer leaf and the word Song which in conjunction with Idris' last words "The only water in the forest is the River". His brain clicked it together.
Both the the Doctor and River slept in that cot at one time, even if it was just a flesh avatar River remembered it.
"Make it make sense!" Okay, here goes: "Wibbley-wobbley, timey-wimey!" 😉
Rewatching all the River episodes would definitely be worthwhile at some point! There are also videos on TH-cam that show the adventures in order from _River's_ point of view. Just don't watch them _yet_ because, as you might well guess, _spoilers!_
It all makes sense. Yes, River knew her parents all along. She has to lie. We were even told at the start of this episode that "today" was her birthday!
Rivers name isnt on the crib. Thats a misdirection. River was pointing at the leaf INSIDE the crib.
The doctor in silence of the library “I point and laugh at archaeologists” and then in this episode he points and laughs at river/ melody 🤣
Twice.
Can’t wait till she meets Peter Capaldi and his interactions with River.
The episode where Melody was conceived is titled "The Big Bang".
Hahahahaha, never thought about that.
Moffat: "So there's a mysterious child. And Amy's just had a child. And we don't know _who_ River Song really is. And we have a character from the Gamma Forests who's inscribed 'Melody Pond' - the _name_ of Amy's daughter - on this prayer leaf. But the only water in the Forest is the _River._ …So who might River Song be?"
Us: "No idea"
It was all laid out there but so many of us (me included) didn't get it right until the reveal.
Tbh I’m incredibly surprised that nobody else seemed to predict it
Um Actually, she put River Song, as they didn't have the words for Pond or Melody...
And now we know the secondary meaning behind the title of the S5 finale.
oh my god, never clocked that
Oh God…
😂😂
what i liked is the joke that was hidden and took a long time to complete... when the 10th saw River Song he said he Points and Laughs at Archeologists... when he sees amy's baby for 1st time he points and smiles/laughs :) Pond/River Melody/Song
Yes she did know that they were her parents.
Go back to the first time Amy and River were first in the Tardis.
That is the Time of the Angels and compare it to when River met Donna.
River was very familiar with Amy.
River also went out of her way to save Amy with the teleporter in Flesh and Stone.
The child was River.
This was already answered in the child's room in the orphanage as she had a picture of Amy in her room.
When they first introduced Amy, I thought she was going to be my favourite companion. It turned out to be Rory instead.
Rory is the GOAT.
Top tier episode in a lot of ways and the reveal is icing on the cake.
Fun fact, I met the blue guy he's super sweet. But he wasn't originally supposed to be in this episode. He was originally going to be Captain Jack. It was gonna be the explanation of why the Face of Boe is just a head.
I think it worked out better in the end. It keeps Captain Jack as a bit of an enigma.
I have heard that Stevey Wonder has a great sense of humour and hope he found that joke about him funny.
“I’m _old!_ I’m _fat!_ I’m _bluuueeee!”_ is absolutely _hilarious._ 🤣
"She was very brave." "They always are..."
@@phillipchallis966 I love that he didn’t even know who she was but he lied to her so she didn’t die thinking she’d dedicated her whole life to nothing. Which sadly she essentially has. She joined an army in the hope she’d meet this man again who’s influenced her entire life, and he has no idea who she is
@obiwankenobi687 probably my favorite part of the episode, along with River dressing him down. It reminds me of Rory telling the Doctor that people put their lives in danger because they want to impress him.
I love that River tells Rory it’s her birthday at the beginning, the puzzle is missing at this point as you now know but the doctor makes the kissing noises to be like ‘oh crap, I’ve been kissing and flirting with my best friends daughter for two seasons now this is awkward ‘.
As for the cot, the camera makes it look like we’re supposed to be looking at the gallifreyian writing on the side but river is actually directing the doctors eyes to the prayer leaf inside the cot. Amy makes the same mistake, my head canon is it’s just some magic Harry pot cot where the writing on the side matches the name of whatever baby is inside it at the time. As it doesn’t make 100% sense because later on river does make mention of the fact the writing on the side won’t translate
It's also her getting the Doctor to connect the dots that she is a Time Lady (albeit a human one). Which is why I love the cot scene.
The Doctor is from his perspective no longer alone.
Also wondered if it's possible for River to be able to read Gallifreyan. And this by her pointing to the writing on the writing on the cot she's saying I can read this, can't you read your own language. Knowing the Tardis couldn't translate it she could only read it if she knew it otherwise.
If I'm reaching, and I'm completely wrong about this no worries, it's just a thought I've had, mainly because she doesn't reach in to show the Dr the cloth she just points to the cot itself. Again I could be completely wrong which would be fine.
@@Loulizabeth That makes a lot of sense! I've always wondered why they so heavily misdirected our attention to the cot. I thought it was just the director misjudging the shot, and that it should have been from a higher angle so that we'd see the prayer leaf inside the cot as well as the writing on the side of it. That would leave it ambiguous what River's referring to until she picks up the leaf and hands it to Amy; but as shot, it does seem she's directing both the Doctor and Amy's attention to the side of the cot, and only later draws attention to the leaf.
The story just gets better and better.
All will be revealed in time.
The text on the cradle was a red herring - it's the Doctor's name in Gallifreyan. River was directing his attention to her own name on the prayer leaf within.
I have tried to figure this out since it first aired and only now realized they were looking at the prayer leaf!!!
Before the doctor gets in the tardis and leaves he pops his head out and points at River and laughs which is a call back to him saying "i point and laugh at archaeologists" for those who missed it 😂
River and the Doctor have been meeting at different points in time. Remember, in past episodes, she already knew him. And at the beginning of this episode, she knew what was going to happen. That's because she's from the future. And you can't change your own future.
I remember shortly before this episode aired I came across some speculation online that River might be Amy and Rory's daughter. I dismissed that possibility out of hand, thinking it was way too "out there" even for Steven Moffat. I was wrong. 😅
[NODS] There were so many competing theories going around at the time, though, and lots of them made at least *some* sense! =:o}
Yes. River is Amy and Rory's daughter.
26:55 _Right_ ? The face of every viewer at that moment :). This was a sort of "mid-series finale" so at the time we had to wait more than two _months_ to see what happened next. Cracking episode IMO. Love the recruiting through time - he doesn't need to hurry of course, "Time machine. I backed up a bit". Surprised no one on Patreon had filled you in on the "connection" stuff (which is all laid out in previous episodes) but maybe they were being _super_ cautious about spoilers (which is fair).
(the overall premise + 11's remark about rules reminds me of a bit from Terry Pratchett:
"Something Vimes had learned as a young guard drifted up from memory. If you have to look along the shaft of an arrow from the wrong end, if a man has you entirely at his mercy, then hope like hell that man is an evil man. Because the evil like power, power over people, and they want to see you in fear. They want you to know you're going to die. So they'll talk. They'll gloat.
They'll watch you squirm. They'll put off the moment of murder like another man will put off a good cigar.
So hope like hell your captor is an evil man. A good man will kill you with hardly a word.")
Make it make sense. Lol
It makes total sense. So well written. Even if you don't get it now (and that's okay), you will get it.
I thoroughly enjoyed your reaction!
“River hug Amy” “You were brilliant”. (Crash of the Byzantium)
That whole two parter is worth rewatching when you know River is Amy's daughter. There are so many interactions where River is doing everything she can to protect or comfort her mom 😭💙💙
There’s a nice little callback to Silence in the Library. The Tenth Doctor said to River that he points and laughs at archaeologists. Which is what the Eleventh Doctor did to baby River.
What a perfect episode for Doctor Who Day! Happy 61 years of Doctor Who 🎉💙💙
It really is River's birthday... two of them at once!
Most of your confusion can be cleared up by remembering that when you're a time travel, you don't always meet people in the same order they meet you. You can meet someone when they're 20, then 2, then 40, then 10.
When River gets to see her dad on her birthday, I literally bawl my eyes out
26:51 "Wibbly wobbly timey wimey" Welcome to the Tardis, Whovian. We had the same expression when this episode aired Live. We will be glad to help you through this process of understanding the strangeness that IS, Prof. River Song (Melody Pond).
I love watching people get to this one! Always gives me goosebumps.
Matt Smith is incredible in this episode, his acting range on show🔥
remember the episode "The Big Bang"? Has 2 meanings now after this episode. First clue on Melody was when River was breaking back into prison and she said its her birthday
When you said angry 11 reminded you of 10 - I always found 11s anger way more convincing than 10s. 10 would just shout at the bad guys a lot. 11 would straight up murder them (and sometimes did).
The headless monks were needed because they don't register as lifeforms (stated in-show). This was essential in the plan to have the doctor's group let down their guard and some of them to go home.
I loved getting a “*sigh* okay?” every time Steven Moffat added a random creative new character every few minutes in the first half. And your reaction to the tongue joke was priceless. Probably the filthiest joke in the show’s history.😅
That one scene prompted a lot of steamy fanfics back in the day. =:o}
In "Day of the Moon" River says "I hope my old man didn't see that, he gets ever so cross"... with Rory looking on!
A sneaky line, because of course "my old man" can mean either a husband (implied: The Doctor) or a father (later revealed to be Rory).
The Doctor's Wife... "there are no ponds in the Gamma Forest, the only water is the River."
River "hasn't seen the bassinet in a while... like since she was hours old.
Time is... confusing when tomorrow is yesterday.
"I just want all the answers" - yeah that will never happen. There are always questions.
River’s timeline is in reverse of the Doctors’. Up to this point she is getting younger each time he/they have seen her.
It makes more sense after ‘Let’s Kill Hitler’ but she started to get putting the pieces together.
*MOSTLY* in reverse. There's a few wrinkles, hence why they have to synchronise diaries carefully.
"I'm a time traveler, I point and laugh at Archaeologists." 15:16 *points and laughs.
2 fun facts in the 2nd episode where River appears she takes great care of Amy like mother and daughter and at the beginning of the episode when she talks to Rory she says that today it was her birthday the same day the child was born
"Make it make sense"....Moffat set a whole storyline up A WHOLE DOCTOR AHEAD is what it always was.
I think this is the only Doctor Who twist that I have ever guessed in advance of the revelation. Something clicked when the Gamma Forest woman said she was translating Amy's daughter's name into the language of the forest. I suddenly recalled the thing that the Tardis lady said about the "only water in the forest". In many ways I wish I hadn't because it is such a fantastic shock for almost everyone else. I did actually cry out at the time and had to assure everybody else in the room that they didn't want to know why. I did write it down though for boasting rights later on!
The "Gamma Forest woman" is now one of the big stars of Star Trek: Strange New Worlds.
Captain Jack and Ood Sigma were supposed to be in this episode. Jack never made it due to availability of John Barrowman but I’m pretty sure Ood sigmas scene got cut, the ood are actually in the credits at the end so must have been a last minute thing
It's a shame, really - Jack taking Moldovar's place with the Headless Monks would have made a lot of sense in how he ends up as the Face of Boe.
@ to be honest it wouldn’t, we know from torchwood that’s not how it works. I like the idea that jack just ages so much, lives so long he ends up evolving into this massive alien head. Torchwood would contradict the plan Moffat had for beheading jack
Love this episode ahah. One of my favourites from the Moffat era.
It’s really whacky and heavily leans into the Wibbly Wobbly Timey Wimey nature of the show. It sort of feels like the classic hero team up format in a sci-fi show.
I remember River being Revealed as Melody Pond and how mind blown I was because it’s such a clever twist that Moffat had apparently planned from the beginning. It’s also shocking because, we are utterly devastated that Amy and Rory lost their baby only to find out she was there all along beside them.
Also Strax being a nurse and helping the enemy makes sense because he’s a medic. Medics will often treat soldiers on the battlefield, even if they are the enemy. In this case the Sontarans prefer their enemies to die in the glory of battle and to die an honourable death.
Great to see your reaction as always 🤗. xx
This is going to be a long one...BUT. A lot of commenters have talked about the bassinet, and while I think their theories could be right, I've always believed the answer is much simpler, and it is the fact that she is able to read and write (and presumably speak) Old High Gallifreyan. Before this episode, one would assume that she learnt everything she knows from her time with The Doctor -- in the "The Time of Angels" two-parter in series 5, she summoned The Doctor and Amy through a black box recorder, upon which was written, in Old High Gallifreyan, the words: "Hello, Sweetie." But think of the importance of the lost language of the Time Lords to The Doctor. See how he reacts when anything to do with his people are mentioned -- even in this episode: he becomes defensive, agitated that the child could be in any way, a Time Lord, because of what being a Time Lord means to him. Does anyone really think that a companion, any companion, would ever be SO important to The Doctor that he would teach them the intimate details of the lost (to everyone but him and The TARDIS) language of his people? Before the Time War, perhaps, but unlikely. After?...Absolutely not. In that scene, I truly don't believe that the Gallifreyan glyphs have any real meaning -- they could be saying anything from the theorised real name of The Doctor (which we know that River knows because of the Silence in the Library two-parter in Series 4), to an inside joke from the props department literally saying: "RIVER SONG IS MELODY POND" -- but to me, it is an acknowledgement of a shared linage and camaraderie that is assumed because of that. Language is often dumbed down to simple reading, writing, and speaking, but it is so much more than that: it creates a kinship, however much acknowledged, between the people who share it. It creates codes and cultures between people such that those who do not know that language might not even fully understand even if they try to learn to write or speak it. It's part of an experience that has to be lived, not read in a textbook nor butchered trying to translate it into someone else's language, and thus while it binds the people who speak and live the language, it also ostracises those who don't. Amy is the audience surrogate as usual, and, throughout the exchange between River and The Doctor, tries to glean from the bassinet the secret code and conversation that River and The Doctor are sharing with their eyes and body language, and despite her effort -- you can see it in her facial expressions -- she remains confused. River tells her with certainty that The TARDIS "won't" translate Gallifreyan, not can't, but won't. In the past, in Series 2, for instance with 'The Satan Pit' two-parter, we saw a language that the TARDIS COULDN'T translate. But that isn't the case here. The TARDIS knows Gallifreyan -- it is as much her experience as it is the Time Lords' and The Doctor's -- so of course she won't share that with Amy. Whether for her own reasons, or for her reverence and 'love' for The Doctor -- or even of the Time Lords as a whole. I've read online that it was written in Doctor Who stories that Gallifreyan sounds musical to humans who hear it, and it's interesting if you watch the scene back, because the score, when The Doctor feels hostile towards River, acts accordingly, but the minute that River physically reaches out to him, and says "I am telling you," it is replaced with a much lighter, hopeful, even FRIENDLIER soundtrack. A sign of acceptance and understanding. One that is further proved by the fact that though they are speaking in a language that everyone around them understands, no one does -- as though it is a representation of the codes and cultures that they share from being Time Lords.
The reason should now be clear why River could not be at Demons Run until the end. She could not be there while her younger self was there. Events had to run their course.
No, river couldn't be there because she knew she would be there at the end. In the entire episode, Melody is a flesh avatar. She's not the real melody. It causes no paradox to interact with your flesh avatar.
@mrdr0161 In that case, where was the real baby Melody/River? Was she nearby or far away already?
Now that I think about it (hopefully not a spoiler), the Doctor has interacted with his other selves before. Was Melody/River also able to become involved in her timeliness?
@@ronfehr7899 I don't know. Maybe they replaced her with a flesh avatar as soon as she was born. Maybe when they took her from Amy at the beginning of the episode, they gave her back a flesh avatar. But in the episode, the Melody Rory took from Kovarian, who he and Amy cried over and the Doctor talked to, who they put to sleep in the Doctor's cot, it was never the real Melody.
Il you watch again the episodes with River and Amy, you realize River always takes good care of Amy
Melody Pond, Melody=Song, and as she said there is no direct translation for Pond because the only source of water is the River
Ah this episode, the reveals, the nrw characters, the favour yhose characters take up on here, Jenny, the Silurian, I always forget the purpose of the marine, Strax the Sontaran, never rewatched this episode but always remember the details.
Thr archaeologist, the Doctors Wife, River's reaction on her birthday at fhr prison, the tardis part I wasn't sure of id that or the cot if something timelord transferred but the tardis makes sense.
The forest of thr angels.
Yeah I do think River River but yeah Melody isn't a Galifrian word so its Song aka Pond to River.
Some languages with different words and if they don't have one you hear the other language word.
Her nor showing up to ruin events.
River/Doctor connection because yes he did with their child but he is happy as he knows he has saved her from the villains clutches so he knows he can/does in the end.
I think it's a good secret/twist and time going crazy but it does make sense.
Ah yes the astronaut thry explain it of course. Yes you have seen all episodes yes end of season stuff.
I always wonder if these are second viewings, or the patreon video uploaded vut seems to be second viewing which makes sense.
This is the exact example when tears run after watching for the second time. First time, confused. Second and after, tears.
I think the only reason the Doctor acted a bit weird when he realized that River is Amy's daughter is really just because he's basically been making out with Amy's daughter.
As for relationships, it's been frequently suggested that River and the Doctor are an actual couple, except that they haven't moved in together to have a 9 to 5 job and a family.
It's clear from her first scene in this ep that, by this point in River's time line, they've been out on multiple dates, though of course we're not told if they've ever, er, "stayed in". Or whether, from the Doctor's POV, those dates were after he learned of her parentage or before. For further hints, we have to look to the minisodes... =:o}
Thanks, Britany! ⏳ This episode cinched why the 'Amy', 'Rory', 'River' stuff appeals most to me... and so much more to come!!!
The bassinet is irrelevant. It was a red herring. The prayer leaf is what she shows the Doctor, what he reads. The bassinet was the Doctor's when he was a baby.
Want another twist? Here goes:
Way back, Dorian sold River a time vortex manipulator taken from the wrist of a handsome time agent.
Dorian has a working relationship with the headless monks.
The headless monks cut off people's head and put them in boxes.
The Face of Boe is a head in a box.
Jack Harkness was a handsome time agent.
Jack Harkness is the Face of Boe.
There. You're welcome.
I think originally the headless monks this was going to play into the origin of the face of boe. But then the actor wasn’t on board.
Moffat wanted Barrowman, but they were filming Miracle Day for torchwood in America so he couldn't
Given how far ahead you are on the Patreon, it's definitely safe to go back and rewatch the episodes with river now.
The doctor has kissed river before, that was the kissy face. And she wasn't not there because she was angry, she couldn't be there because she would cross her own timeline.
Indeed. The River that Rory talks to at the beginning does not wait a few hours and then go to Demon's Run. That is an older River, who has already been there and, to borrow her own line from another episode, remembers it well. How else could she tell Rory even the little she did divulge?
I know so many RTD fans who stopped watching at this point in the show. Some picked it up again in the later years and others have never watched it since
"A big ball of wibbly wobbly, timey wimey stuff"
So, it wasn't that he wouldn't be happy. It's if he didn't fail, nothing else with her would have occurred. More info is coming in later episodes, but it's one of those things where you have just enough pieces to know there's a picture, but not what it looks like.
Amy experienced everything the Flesh did
still one of my favourite tv twists in history honnestly
Let me quote the most important man in Starfleet: "I hate temporal mechanics."
28:28 Whovian don't ask unless you want it: #Spoilers We can Explain it but it WILL spoil future Episodes. 30:29 The Cot had the Doctor's REAL Name in Gallifreyan. Their is only 1 person in the Whole Universe he would tell it to. Melody's name was on the Prayer Leaf given to Amy by the Soldier of the Gamma Forest.
Not inside the TARDIS. It’s because she was conceived in the vortex. Think of it like putting a chicken in an off oven. Nothing happens. But turn it on and it cooks. So imagine an on oven is the equivalent of the TARDIS actually in the vortex. Not just standing still. Then you get a semi Timelord
Melody=Song
Pond=River
Angry Doctor is the best Doctor. This episode is a great example, and theres of course that one episode of 12.
The River in the Forest is a Pond, Melody Pond. Keep a Song in your heart
Gallifrey Gals just finished a rewatch of the timeline through Rivers perspective this time. It might be worth checking out to help make sense of things.
After she sees the rest of River’s story. She has a ways to go yet.
There’s also a video that clips her scenes in her timeline order to see things from her perspective.
@@zemoxian She is completely caught up with the show on Patreon.
@@MalcolmWolf Cool!
You will never know what was written on the crib thingy.. it was written in gallifreyian. There is no English translation. But my guess is it was river songs name, because the last baby that was in it, was Amy and Rory 's baby.
Fun fact: Alex Kingston kept the reveal a secret so Arthur and Karen’s reactions were genuine when filming. One of the best reveals in the show’s history!
Not true. Kingston doesn't have the authority to demand the main actors not know viral information. 99% of rumours that reactions were genuine while filming something aren't true. The writers and director wouldn't want to do that because they can't predict the genuine reaction of the actors. Karen and Arthur could've burst into laughter and that wouldn't make a good ending to the episode. They were actually told when they received the script for the episode, as was Matt Smith.
@@MatthewVlossak This isn’t true. Arthur and Karen aren’t characters, river being Amy’s child would not provoke emotional, teary reactions of shock like in the episode. They’d be like wtf and giggling like idiots. The story is half true, the crew on set didn’t know what was going to happen but Arthur, Karen and Matt all did. They only got the script pages that day however. So didn’t know the ending until that point, I believe it was written that she was his wife. And they’re supposed to act shocked. But on the day of filming the three of them got the real ending script pages. And of course Alex knew from when they started filming series 6. There’s a lie that goes round that she knew from the very start of her story in series 4. She didn’t.
Before watching i predict you will love this one. It's my favourite Matt Smith episode.
We're paid to fight him not praise him. Praising costs way more!
🤣
The internet has worked together to compile the River timeline, so you can, at some point, watch everything from her perspective by following that episode order.
This was one of my favorite, if not my favorite matt Smith episode, although David tenant is my favorite matt smith a close second, this and the final episode with amy and rory are possibly my top favorites
Rewatching episodes with River, you may want to start from her very first appearance, swill with Tenth Doctor (Tennant) and Vashta Nerada.
It makes perfect sense, believe me ;) Trust the process...
Four words: wibbley wobbley times wimey! And River's timeliness is as wibbley as it gets. We do get (some) more answers
oh back when dr who was brilliant, i remember seeing that episode the first time made me cry at the end and yes when river first showed up when she died this was the hole plan from the start
That was exactly my reaction, I eventually got used to the revelation but hated it at first
Yes - River did know all the time . There are still things to come but if you do watch her reactions in earlier episodes you wil notice some of her reactions make far more sense.
The prayer leaf with her name on it was in the bassinette, the camera showing us the galephrayan writing was a misdirection, the name was in it not on it
Now that was a REVEAL!!!
You're gonna need a flow chart.
The surprise of conclusion when you keep processing the events is that the show writers had this plot point designed and written out from the start of Amy Pond's character creation. They sat on this long game for like 2 or 3 seasons. Now, I don't think they meant to take River's character this far when they first introduced her with the Library episode. Dr. Who likes to drop future teasers but doesn't always hold themselves to following through with it when he talks about his cannon. "Oh I once met so and so. I guess I was the first one who invented this or that"
And you can get away with that because the show can go on for another 100 years so who knows when someone down the pike wants to cherry pick one of the many plot seeds they like to spread around.
this was one of the most wild episodes. i remember having to wait like 3 months or so for the next one. told you this season was one that has to be rewatched lol
19:21 the doctor finally realising 🤣
Remember due to time travel River and the doctor have to lie as not to change history and time, spoilers
remember she lives her life in reverse
ROFL way to channel your inner David Tennant!!! What? What?? What!??!!??!!
At least you dont have to wait 18 months for the next episode. If I remember correctly. (Edit: was only 3 months remembered wrong)
It was about three months, so it wasn't that bad, but it did feel a lot longer.
It did feel like 18 months...