PTR 91 Part 2 - Break-In, Ammo Testing and Review of the Sightmark Wraith on the PTR
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 3 ต.ค. 2024
- IMPORTANT UPDATE 1/29/2020 - In this video I mention mention point of impact shift and loss of focus on my Sightmark Wraith. After viewer feedback I contacted Sightmark and I am in the process of doing an RMA for this issues and was informed by Tech Support that there was a recoil issue with the first Wraiths to hit the market (my copy was shipped April 2019). So Please keep this in mind while watching this Video - I will give a status update once this issue has been resolved.
This is the Second Video's on the PTR-91 (G3 / H&K 91 Clone), coupled with the Sightmark Wraith HD Digital Day/Night Scope.
In this video we will be doing the Break in on the PTR along with testing several types of Ammunition both at the beginning and after close to 300 rounds of break in, we will also be using the Sightmark Wraith in this testing so this is also a Review of the Wraith on the PTR
I plan on doing more follow up video's both on testing the PTR with a conventional optic as well as on the Wraith and trying to use it on some other Rifles..
Oh, and one last note that I forgot to mention in the Video - By the time I was done with the break in and Ammunition Testing I had fired a total of 320 rounds through the PTR, and out of all of it I had only one failure which was a failure to feed due to a magazine jam.
I watched both of the vids and I learned a few things. I think I would send that wraith scope back. Go with a old style 3 power and see what things act like using that. Thank you for taking the time to make these vids and being honest about what you found.
Your Quite Welcome! I did end up sending the Wraith back under warranty and they have sent me an entirely new unit with newer firmware as well, but I've not had the chance to see how it functions. The truth is once I'm done playing around with the replacement Wraith I will be putting a Primary Arms 5x Prism Scope with the ACSS recticle on the PTR upgraded with a quick detach mount and will use conventional NV or Thermal on it if the need arises.
Fantastic review, very informative and well articulated. After this was all said and done, would you say the Silver Bear was the most accurate Ammo to use for the PTR91?
Thanks! ... To be honest, While it appeared to do well enough in the tests I really don't have an ammo recommendation for a couple of reasons ~ First because the Sightmark Wraith failed during the process (I have since sent it back in to Sightmark and they replaced it with a completely new unit... Apparently from talking to them the early production units which mine was part of had issues - I've not tested the Replacement unit) I don't know if it was somewhat impacting the accuracy before finally going way South, and the Second thing is I have to admit that while I did have the rifle in a rest I'm not a highly skilled Marksman.
One thing I would like to mention is that the OEM military triggers in the PTR are not the greatest and I feel don't do the rifle any favors in the accuracy department. Since the Review I have replaced the Trigger Pack with a tuned / enhanced one from HKParts.net ( hkparts.net/product/ptr-hk91-g3-308-7-62-enhanced-trigger-pack-match-p17014.htm ) which I would highly recommend for any PTR, Clone or Even an HK if you're lucky enough to have one (Note for anyone reading this trigger pack requires additional parts to work with a CETME as stated on HKParts.net website).
@@PhoenixRising62 Thank you sir, That’s good advice. I’m going to send my OEM Trigger and Buffer system to Bill so he can work his magic.
I figure with a crisper and lighter trigger, reduced recoil and a descent muzzle brake, that should make this rifle pretty accurate and easier to shoot.
A lot of work went into that, I wish I could see where the shots were striking. It was too difficult to follow. Nice rifle, dump that optic and run quality glass or use irons only. I just run my G3 raw.
LOL Thanks!... And really I just put the Wraith on the PTR to test it. Interestingly after receiving feedback from someone in the channel who said they didn't have the focus and impact shift issues with the Wraith I contacted Sightmark and they ended up having me send my Wraith back and then Replaced it with a new one... Apparently early production units (which mine was as I had to pre-order it) had some issues, so I plan on giving the replacement another "shot" (pun intended!) with a follow on Review. I have also picked up a Primary Arms Gen II 5x Prism Scope for the PTR (love their ACSS reticle) and changed out the mount on it with a American Defense AD-B3 STD quick detach (which had to be slightly modified due to the larger 36mm lens on the 5x prism)... Still have to get to the range and Sight that one in~!
@@PhoenixRising62 IRON RAW. That's the love of the .308. You can hit anything you can see with iron sights and there's not much besides a mountain to hide behind.
@@HankMcGurk I do like Iron Sights ~ The problem for me is age and eyes that don't focus as well as they used to (both up close and distance to a degree). Even red dots can be a problem for many people my age or with astigmatism LOL Getting Older Sucks!... At least when it comes to Vision anyway.
@@PhoenixRising62 I suppose after awhile you just have a feel for it that even two eyes can't see. It has to be learned. If you can teach I can see. If you are patient, I will listen. When we have, we will both eat.
As a gambling woman told me in an elevator in Biloxi once, "Getting old ain't for pussies."
God Bless.
Great video.. picking mine up this week.. anything new to report?
No, I've not put a lot of rounds through mine yet though I did go to the range last week and put about 80 rounds down range sighting in two different scopes and seeing how well the QR mounts on them held Zero. Since the video I have done a couple of upgrades though. First I swapped out the thin foregrip with one of the Triangular ones with the Bipod channel (never did like the thin grips, they heat up too fast!), and I also picked up an enhanced match grade trigger pack from HKparts.net which is a huge improvement over the standard trigger (it doesn't make the trigger like a high end trigger for an AR-15, but a huge improvement over the stock one none the less). Also added a Primary Arms 5x32 Prism Scope with ACSS Reticle and swapped the stock mount on it for an American Defense AD-B3 STD QD mount (have to slightly modify the mount for it to work with the PA scope) which works very well the with PTR... That's one of the two scopes I sighted in with the other being a Bering Optics Super Hogster Thermal. just as an FYI both of the QD mounts seemed to hold Zero relatively well on the PTR with roughly a 2-4" shift on remount (close enough to be comfortable without re-zero on things like Hogs etc @ 100 yards). Thanks for Watching and Enjoy your New PTR!
Thanks for the high quality video. Did you find that the charging handle loosened up a bit after the break in?
It has a little bit so far, but not much and I still have less than 500 rounds through it. My experience with an 2nd hand CETME and a 1980's HK93 that I know had thousands of rounds through it is that while the springs do lighten some over time they are not supposed to lighten much, which in a way is a good thing as the spring strength does a lot to decrease perceived recoil by spreading it out over time and reducing the force of the impact of the carrier when it hits it's travel stop (which also has a very stiff spring).
@@PhoenixRising62 I have about 300 rounds through mine and the charging handle is still super hard to pull back. I only use a light coat of CLP, but might try look into other options to find if anything else will help. Thanks for the video.
@@MB-js4us I wouldn't expect it to get too easy, remember that the roller lock systems are a recoil / blowback system and in the case of the PTR / CETME / HK-91 your working with the recoil of a 7.62 Nato round with enough recoil that the it has a spring loaded carrier buffer built into the stock that's stiff enough that unless you know better it looks like a metal peg. If it had a conventional Gas Operated / Piston setup they could use a much lighter spring and tone down the force used by the size of the gas port / piston diameter etc. I guess you could say that that is one of the negatives of the system, but then again there are a lot of old HK's and CETME's out there that are still in operation after many years of military and police use around the world so at least it's proven durable / robust.
@@PhoenixRising62 Hello, thanks for the quick reply. I'm not expecting it to be easy. But mine is pretty bad. I've seen other videos where people pull theirs back with not much effort. I was shooting with a friend and gave him a full magazine and told him to try it and see how he likes it. I didn't mention anything about the charging handle. After trying to charge it he looked over at me and asked if he's doing anything wrong. I laughed and was happy it wasn't just me. We both served in the Marine Corps together so we're familiar with shooting. Hopefully it gets a little better. If not I might reach out to PTR to see what they think. Thanks again! Have a great night.
@@MB-js4us Sorry, hope I didn't sound patronizing or anything, hard to know your audience in here sometimes. Is it harder to get off the seat / unlock or across the board?
Just thinking that if it's hard to get off the seat (unlock the bolt head) it might be a good idea to check the bolt gap and look closely at the back of the bolt where what looks like an extractor engages the head and maybe polish those surfaces that might ease the unlock, also from my experience when you flip the charging handle out that should partially unlock the head to assist (if it flips out easily with little resistance then you might be having to overcome the unlock completely with brute force instead of having the benefit of leverage working for you) as I'm thinking about it I would think that if the carrier to bolt gap is on the low side that might make it more difficult to unlock / charge.
If it's more the whole process I would suspect perhaps a tighter receiver and maybe binding there and look for any burnishing or wear spots on the inside of the receiver or carrier and if necessary polish those out with a dremel etc. (as an FYI I once picked up a UTG claw mount for a CETME and when mounted it caused binding in the receiver and action when because of the compression on the receiver, where a genuine HK mount did not ... So the UTG needed to be fitted to the receiver / have the feet honed, so my impression is that it doesn't take a lot to cause binding due to the receiver being a stamped steel part). Hope this helps!
I almost never fire it without gloves... cut my hands too often without
I've never had that issue, but have been Bitten by the charging handle (especially on the Triangular front grips with the metal sling hook on it).
Nice video. Thats the same experience I have with my PTR-91. It works best with 147gr -to- 150gr ammo. The heavier grain, and more expensive, match grade ammo does not offer any better results. Average group size for me is 1.75" (5 shot groups at 100 yards) using Federal AE308D ammo with several 1.5" groups throughout the day at the range.
Thanks! I need to make another trip back to the range as I received a replacement Wraith (apparently the initial Wraiths had issues including mine with loss of focus etc., so when I contacted Sightmark they had me send mine back and an received a new scope with a newer firmware) that I need to test, after which the Wraith will be replaced with a Primary Arms SLX 5x Prism Scope with ACSS Reticle that I'm pretty excited about! Since this video I've also replaced the foregrip with a triangular one which is more comfortable and also won't heat up nearly as fast and I've also replaced the trigger pack with an enhanced one from HKparts.net which is a big improvement over the stock trigger ( it can be found at - hkparts.net/product/ptr-hk91-g3-308-7-62-enhanced-trigger-pack-match-p17014.htm ).
@@PhoenixRising62 Oh no ! Please dont mention the enhanced trigger pack !
I've been seeing those on hkparts and have been trying to convince myself that it cant be that much better, lol.
Thanks for replying
@@newdefsys Actually a custom trigger is totally worth it. I had MSG done with a Set Trigger. Got me Sub MOA with Match 168 grn Sierra.
@@seancummings7788 Do you have a Bill Springfield trigger pack or the new 'Enhanced Trigger Pack' from HK ?
hkparts.net/product/hk-91-ptr-c308-enhanced-trigger-group-match-p18358.htm
@@newdefsys Sorry it took a bit to reply, but I picked looking at other comments I picked up the "Enhanced Trigger Pack - Match" from HKparts.net (HKP-17014)... Haven't been to the Range yet with it (hoping it opens back up soon!), But I did just get a Wheeler digital trigger gauge to use and hope to do a review on both the trigger pack and the Wheeler in the future, in the meantime I can tell you that I did 10 test pulls with both the OEM and the Enhanced packs installed and the Enhanced has much less creep, none of the gritty feel of the stock trigger and that the numbers I came up with for trigger pulls are Standard Trigger= Max: 10 lb 8.2 oz., Min: 9 lb 3.8 oz, Average: 9 lb 11.7 oz. and the HKparts.net Enhanced Trigger= Max: 7 lb 5 oz, Min: 5 lb 13.5 oz, Average: 6 lb 8 oz. When I purchased the Enhaced trigger the middle of last year they were going for about $170 USD + $14 S&H.
Just as an aside what I've found using the trigger gauge is that you can really come up with different numbers with a handheld unit as it's hard to hold the device consistently and any change in position, especially in how far up or down the trigger the tool rests will impact your readings (I also haven't had this thing long so I'm not well practiced), so I would chalk up any differences between the high and low to all the variables and "Operator Error" and go with the averages.
So much work, and the scope spoils it. Anyway, thanks for the effort. I might have learned something.
Thanks, Yes the scope definitely didn't do any favors, but on the up side accuracy seemed stable, reliability was very good (especially with many of the horror stories on the Century Arms CETME's and PTR Clones in the past). I'm hoping to do follow up reviews on both the PTR-91 with a traditional Optic (I'm wanting to get a Primary Arms 5x Prism scope for it, as it needs a compact optic to give proper clearance for the charging handle), and the Wraith (a little more in-depth, and plan on trying it on some weapons with less recoil where accuracy etc. known). It was also a good learning experience for me in doing firearms shooting reviews
Now I'm looking for some better software as I've been using Corel VideoStudio Ultimate (2018 ver) and after spending a large amount of time editing and putting the video together if had issues with rendering (would just stop without any message as to why) that made me literally have to split and redo much of the project to where it delayed me a week with much frustration. Live and Learn.
@@PhoenixRising62 I'm still learning how to edit. And I have to learn how to make illustrations to explain stuff. So I can relate a bit.
@@heyarno I understand, I've been editing Photos and shooting Photo's in RAW for years, but I'm pretty new to the video editing stuff and much of the software has a steep learning curve.
Mine is brand new and it can't get 1 or 2 round out without jamming. Changed ammo, changed mags. Not happy. Going back to PTR. again!!
Sorry to hear that! ... "Again"?... have you had to send it in more than once?
@@PhoenixRising62Sent in Once a few months ago. . Took nearly 3 months to get it back. I don't think much was done to it. I will check the head space, then replace the ejector spring and arm myself. It's under warrantee still, so I may give up and send it back for another try at repairs. if I send it back, it would be the second time. I'm not a gun expert, but I can learn how to repair things from the net.
@@scalecraft4663 If you don't mind my asking what is the nature of the Jam? Case feeding, Extraction or Ejection? ... It sounds like Ejection from what you are saying, which is very unusual for the CETME, HK, PTR type actions given their particularly "Robust" Extraction/Ejection process.
@@PhoenixRising62 Extraction. There is a youtube vid showing another ptr 91 with the exact same issue tittled "PTR-91 shooting @ Angeles Shooting Ranges. The vid is 9 months old. Might be within the same production run as mine??
What happens if you don’t clean the barrel every time after every shot for 10 shots?
Whats your thoughts of using steel cased ammo, steel on steel would damage the bolt or chamber flutes? Ive always used surplus brass from different countries.
To be honest I'm not sure about the Not Cleaning part, my thoughts are that depending on how clean (free of burrs / rough edges) the machining on the barrel is and the quality of the ammo (full copper vs. copper clad jackets etc) there could be minimal difference in the break in to putting a lot of extra wear on you your barrel or even worst case getting a permanent reduction in accuracy of the rifle (that you would never be able to actually quantify short of taking several sequential serial numbered rifles and doing the break-in's differently and even then it would be subjective based manufacturing differences and sample size). ... I will say that I did not find any excessive dirt / grit / wear metal during the break in, so every 10 rounds might be a bit excessive.
As for the use of Steel Cased Ammo, my personal feelings are that steel cased is fine. I've reviewed torture tests on AR's using different Ammo types (I believe Lucky Gunner did them) and considering the way they were shooting the rifles the difference between the two is minimal and any quality rifle should last a lifetime+ with normal usage of either. And I don't believe that the fluting is an issue either and if anything I would tend to think that it would likely handle steel cased ammo better as there is less of a chance to get a stuck case in the first place (and I have shot mostly steel cased stuff through my PTR and an Older CETME without issues though neither had excessive round counts through them).
One thing I will say I is that I have had Case Sticking Issues on two different rifles using Steel Cased ammunition. One was on a AR-15 build that used a "Value Line" barrel (tight chamber - suspect that when the barrel was given a protective coating some of it may have gotten in the chamber) but I didn't try any brass cased ammo with that one just polished the chamber lightly until reliable (Delicate Process and I would not recommend most people attempt it!), and the 2nd was an Older KelTec SU-16 series rifle that would run fine on Brass but only go about 60 rounds with Steel before cases would start sticking.
Just mentioning these as a reminder that people should always vet not just their rifle but the rifle and ammo combination more than just running a magazine through it before calling it good.. It could be a Life Saver! .... and also while I don't have an issue with Steel Cased Ammunition I do NOT recommend switching back and forth between brass and steel cased without a very thorough cleaning between unless its a necessity, especially going from Steel to Brass. The reason for this is that Brass Expands into the chamber walls much better than steel with less blow back / carbon etc. into the chamber so if especially if you've been running steel and switch to brass you may have some light chamber fouling that the brass will expand into causing potential sticking issues. Going from Brass to Steel should generally be Ok but clean afterwards. Just my 2 cents your mileage may vary ;-).
Nothing happens. This rifle is made to fire a lot of ammunition without cleaning. I've seen rusty G3 rifles shoot on and on without a hiccup
good effort, but moving optics suck....lol , lookng forward to you useing standard glass. is yours a JLD PTR, or one out of SC. ? i've got one of the older JLD's with the heavy barrel, but till i get the trigger work done, i'm saving my ammo, i have a god alful trigger pull. cant wait to see more.
This one is one of the Newer ones out of SC, though I do also have a CAI Cetme (Older- Pawn Shop find), and Yes, the Trigger is pretty rough on this one too (looking at getting an upgrade).
I did find a new Green Hk-91 style Wide foregrip that will be on it next time around (didn't want to put it on in the middle of testing), And I'm looking at a Primary Arms 5x Prism sight for an Optic (have decent scopes I could install, but they are all too long to be very usable with the charging handle), but it will be a bit before I can purchase one.
I also got a good deal on one of the Zeiss Fero Z51's Gen 1 Cascade NV scopes that I'd like to try on it (mounting would obviously not be OEM), but I don't currently have a place to shoot at night to play with it.. Would love to play with it though!
by the way as a side note HK Parts Net currently has enhanced trigger packs for $170 (listing them as "Enhanced Trigger Pack - Match"), and Franklin Armory does make BFS III's Binary Triggers for the PTR's as well (they're quite proud of them at around $630).
RC, not sure why I'm not seeing your last post, but I've ordered stuff from RTGParts and been satisfied with them, I just tried looking for Triggernet.com and for some reason it didn't come up with any firearm related site that I could see.
@@PhoenixRising62 cause i messed up, i need more sleep...lol, its actuslly triggerwork.net
can the brass be used for reloading ???
@@likkewaan88p33 yes
Your voice reminds me of Joe Swanson haha
I don't have that problem. It might be the gun. I shoot hole for hole with the one I have no problem whatsoever. Good luck.
With a PTR? a Wraith? or Both?
The wraith.
@@outlawmetaldetecting If you don't mind my asking what rifle do you use it on? ... I'd like to do a follow up with in on something smaller, thinking AR in .223 or 9mm carbine (Ruger PC9)
@@PhoenixRising62 AR 15 m4 Double Star, And my Ruger American 308. I use the 308 for deer and the 223 for coyotes.
This method is used to break in an expensive pression match barrel. Doing that with a rifle like this is a complete waste of time and won't make it shoot any better. It's a combat weapon not a target rifle
That may be the case, but it is what PTR recommends. In most cases I do not subscribe to breaking in regular firearms other than via regular use. I will say that the PTR similar to the CAI Cetme's doesn't have the same fit and finish as the original HK's ... Much stiffer actions etc, so part of the break in might also be more wearing in the parts a bit for reliable functioning. I wanted to see if there was any difference at the end, however the Wraith failing towards the end of the process negated the results (Sightmark did replace the Wraith, it was a 1st run scope that was pre-ordered and was prone to internal failures btw).
This was free an yet I still want my money back