Why the Spacing Guild Never Took Control of Arrakis | Dune Lore
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 25 ก.ย. 2024
- Exploring the reasons behind the Spacing Guild's decision to refrain from directly taking control of or governing Arrakis, despite their vital dependence on its spice production.
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The Guild, like the Bene Gesserit and the Bene Tleilax, understood the notion that's it's better to be the power behind the throne rather than on it. It helps explain the intense rivalry between those three organisations. They're all manoeuvring and scheming in the same shadows.
Another well thought out and presented video, Elaine. Thank you.
Guild safe and easy path was a path that lasted longer than other groups with more ambitious goals.
The host dies, the parasite survives
The guild was like water, always seeking the path of least resistance.
One of the things i like about dune is the starting political situation highlights that power is about controlling the keys to power. (there’s a video i think by cgp grey on the topic)
Most political situations are more fraught than they appear in summaries. the emperor holds support of 4 keys to power. The sardukar, the landsrad, the choam company, and the bene geserat. but by the time of dune, all 4 are faltering.
The sardukar, losing their edge, coasting on reputation. The landsrad discontent growing after the death of Leto, The choam’s loss of control of the spice, and the bene geserat losing control over a major faction of religious fanatics they created.
the power only worked because the emperor had a collection of inter-connected powers that all relied on the other pieces. He could play them against each other. And eventually, something disrupted the balancing act. Great insight into the fall of an autocratic system.
The downfall (or eventual downfall) of every tyrant that has ever existed, was their greed for ultimate power. Having ninety percent of the power is enough. If you fight for ultimate power, then you’ll always be fighting for it… and, eventually lose everything
In the later books, the Ixians develop Mechanical Compiler Navigators to compete with the Guild. More fun to be the Kingmaker than to be the King.
Controlling Arrakis is a fighting proposition. The Guild are navigators and businessmen not warriors.
Well said.
I think that was a superb analysis and explanation of the Spacing Guild's Modus Operandi. I especially liked the way you compared them to large Oil Companies here on Earth, a very apt and accurate analogy indeed. Excellent presentation.
Your comparison of the Guild to our real life oil companies is spot on!
Excellent topic and really well presented-hadn’t really thought of it like that. Well done indeed and many thanks
I had wondered about this for quite some time. Thank you for clearing this up, Nerd Cookies!
Can't get destroyed if you're not on the battlefield.
Until the Matrons arrive.
Thanks Eline. Perfect topic for who enjoyed the 1984 version but never read the books
So they’re Switzerland. Got it!
I feel, if the guild did take over, it would be short-lived because of their addiction to the substance. They would go overboard & shut out everyone else,and the transportation lines of the galaxy would fall apart.
The Scarface of melange.
Rule number 1=
Don't get high on your own supply!
😊
to me it makes sense they would act as they did with just their limited prescience, even though it led to their stagnation everyone was dependent on them many more thousands of years than even the god emperor ruled. bad for humanity in an innovation sense but they kept their spot a long ass time. they could have put more into looking past the spice and ftl travel monopolies themselves though, they had the time and resources
Ironic. The beings with the most powerful physical perception in the universe, had the most limited foresight. Beautiful
The Navigators dependency on spice also altered their very way of thinking. It is possible that they actually lack any ambition out of drugs mollesse. I think Herbert describes them as literally space junkies, their intellect dimmed by their power to see near future. We have at least three clues of this in Dune and Dune Messiah.
1) At the end of Dune, the Padishah Emperor turns to the two navigators present in his retinue to ask them their opinion: they answer that they can't see the future because of the nexus, but reassures the Emperor that Paul also can not. The Emperor then realises that the two navigators can't think by themselves, that they are totally dependent on their ability.
2) In the appendix, the Bene Gegesserit is said to be aware that the Guild had an "inept" way of exploring higher dimensions.
3) In Dune Messiah, Edric is depicted with utter contempt by the other conspirers (Mohiam, Irulan and Scytale): they see him as a pedantic idiot whose usefulness is limited to his ability to screen the conspiracy from Paul's vision
I always presumed the Guild Navigators were so mutated that they couldn't have taken power directly.
A couple times in the book, Paul showed fear of losing his understanding of where he actually was, burdened by the visions of the future and the broader present.
He was anxious about the state of mind that guild navigators actively sought.
I figure the navigators were thinking about navigating pathways and stuff, probably having a grand old time. High on spice, tripping their days away.
If you are a necessity, you have control. When you are no longer necessary, you will be cast aside.
using the real world’s dependence on fosil fuel is a terrific allegory 🤔
Can you do a video on the Harkonnen military and the attraides military
Great suggestion!
Thank you
Could you make a video about the animals in Dune!? Besides the sandworms, we have D-wolves, laza tigers, etc. It would be amazing.
Thanks Elaine
Thank you, Nerd Cookies.
Oftentimes you have more power (read: freedom, operational independence) from the shadows, forcing others to depend on you, than being the king or ruler of something. Yes, the navigators depend on the spice. But everyone else depends on the navigators. See how this tensile network of dependencies keeps the navigators in power?
Be sure to read The 48 Laws of Power by Robert Greene for more on this sort of thing. Real power is often behind the throne, not on it.
They're the equivalent of a Thieves' or Assassins' guild in fantasy worlds.
Since requests for their services can come from any side, why ruin a business that they already hold a monopoly on?
"I guarantee you won't go hungry. 'Cos at the end of the day, as long as there's two people left on the planet, someone's gonna want someone dead."
- Sniper, TF2
In their continued success, lies their greatest failure.
Maybe the subject was brought up and I missed it, but I would have like to hear more about the direct control on the guild, eg the emperor ensuring they couldn't stockpile spice.
I dont think the Sisterhood would allow for such a monopoly to occur. They would have undermined any attempt to do so.
If the Great Houses objected their space travel would have been cut off along with House Corrino. Eventually IX would have made an navigator alternative as the did in their future this may have accelerated it . After all they build the Highliners.
so dope, thank you for this video.
This video, along with your other video about The Water of Death, highlights one of the biggest weaknesses of the latest adaptation of Dune.
In the novel, it's the threat of losing safe/reliable interstellar travel and isolating dozens if not hundreds of human occupied worlds that is the biggest concern for the empire and it's the greatest leverage that Paul is able to have over the emperor, the guild, the sisterhood, and the other houses.
The movie's change to how the guild heighliner work, now a tunnel that connects two points in space instead of a ship that is capable of jumping between two distant points in space, does the guild really need spice? All the need is two have two connecting links, one at each end. The movie doesn't really explain why spice is valuable and necessary for the empire to survive.
Great video. Villeneuve really needs to better address the Spacing Guild in the next film. One cannot gloss over their significance in the Imperium.
I was wondering this same topic a few times. I like your reasoning. Addiction can lead to desperate and violent actions. I think Paul was counting on that while making his plans. Do you think there will be a time jump in the next film? If not, how are they going to explain his sister's age? Or are they just going to use his adult sister's voice? Hmm
why do space navigators turn like this because of spice but the fremen dont?
If I remember correctly, it has to do with concentration. Navigators need A LOT of heavily concentrated spice to use their abilities. The mutations that occur are a result of that. Fremen, given how the live/breathe on Arrakis, integrate natural spice into their everyday lives (food/material/etc.).
The spacing build describes beautifully the paralysis of fear of the unknown, even when your power potential is great. Even Paul and Leto II don't overcome this problem, they simply get into a position where they can see more of the future so the problem of fear of the unknown can be side-stepped entirely.
Hollywood writers could learn from this video.
What happened to the Guild in the Scattering and the Honored Matres period?
The fastest way to get rich in a gold rush is to sell shovels. The spacing guild monopolized transportation across a galactic empire as the primary provider and consumer of the most important resource in the galaxy - time. They provide short trips between far flung planetary systems for a select few and in return consume the products of billions of man hours of labor and negotiation to provide that service.
Well, to be fair, they basically had control for 10.000 years.
Not a bad run
Could it be that the Spacing Guild was prohibited to interven or take control of Arrakis by the Oracle of Time, who probably saw what effect that would have?
The answer is easy Elaine ,! Its because when you are stuck in a bowl full of yellow gas that you need to survive its not ease to take complete control of the known universe !
I always wondered this
Took one look at what happens to those cursed with control of Arrakis and noped the hell out.
If the guild took over it is also possible that humanity would forget the main tenant from the jihad and start developing computers for navigation taking away the guilds power.
Thank you, Elaine. Due to the necessity of Guild Navigators to perform exquisitely and without error, I suspect that the idea of taking any risk to control Arrakis is simply beyond their consciousness
Cool Topic!
The guild consists of ferengi. Tell me I am wrong. Rule of acquisition 1058: spice must flow
"do you have any idea how much power we'd have to give up to be president"
Makes sense, an addict wouldn't risk not getting their drug of choice in return for a possibility of an unlimited amount later... They'd rather have the next hit now...
The navigators are the most addicted "people" in t he universe. I think they are terrified of being too close to all that spice. They'd go rogue and just be rolling around in the sand....their eyes rolled in the back of their heads....drooling and moaning....talking on tongues. Just getting high all day and not doing their jobs.
A better question is why did the Imperial government ever allow the Guild to achieve monopoly control over interstellar travel? To use your oil company analogy, in the real world oil companies are heavily regulated even when nominally private and all too often are state owned enterprises, precisely to prevent them from competing with the State's monopoly on power by controlling a critical resource. The Guild should have been crushed in its infancy. I doubt the State would have tolerated the Bene Gesserit either.
Yeah in the real world they would have direct control over it 100% because if it was a matter of risk, it's far riskier to let the thing that gives you your power be run by....whoever. Remember it only comes from one planet and in a universe of huge star empires it's nothing really.
Don't get high on your own supply
They might go off the cliff if they had it right in front of them and over extract spice + kill everything else
It might be less overall spice in thet case
In EBFD, it's another story
It's easy: so the story could happen.
It’s akin to government and the financial institutions that fund politics. The politicians are in the spot light but the money that runs the system flows in the shadows. The banks and firms don’t want the hassle of actually governing but they do want to have the power to change things to their benefit. So the financial institutions prefer to be behind the scenes and dish out money to politicians they want to push for things that benefit them. On the surface it’s the elected officials that are governing but if you look behind the curtain the ones with the money hold the true power.
The two wheels of politics are legitimacy & power. The two pillars of policies are necessity & acceptance.
The Spacing Guild did not need direct governance if they maintained the advantage on planets.
Their biological mutation & adaptation to space life may also have prevented them from the direct rule.
The technological limitation in the “Dune” universe led to social and political stagnation.
i dont think there were that many " drivers ", fully transfigured and achieved time travel/ space travel capabilities, not many, maybe in the tens or hundreds, the rest are " apprentices and still use liquid spice in masks if movie 84' and deni's movie is correct, but there is also the fact they are not a war like entity , weak and cant fight because of guild hardware needed to become a fully developed driver, , its a good question, theyre not all powerful, they just transport
Because the author didn't write it that way. Wasn't focusing on those guys so they didn't matter.
The Guild are not warriors
This is all a half-ass patch Frank Herbert slapped over a gaping plot hole. Of course the Guild would control the source of the thing they depend on! First thing! Anyone who had a problem with that would be stranded in their star system without the Guild to transport them to the battle.
meh, they just weren’t warriors and the distorted form from excessive spice use made them useless as warriors.
They don't have an army.
They have a monopoly on all interstellar travel. Without them, there's no Imperium. They don't *need* an army.
Hyper introverted matematicians controlling the most important aspect of the external, yet addicted and dependent upon it to a beggar like state.. did Herbert read a lot of Jung?
Algorithm comment
If you're going to talk about a movie, stick to the movie.
She’s talking about the entire book series…
Such a troll
Don't feed the troll
@@1nsaniel yum yum yum..
@@daduzadude1547 she also made reference to oil companies....