That connection between consumption and creation is so powerful. That, in a modern world where creation is devalued by industrialization buying things takes the place of making things…oof! That is where we are and it makes perfect sense and but I do not think it is good!!
Being apart of creation and not just consumption is a great way to word something I've been thinking about for a while. I really wanna get better at creating and not just consuming; it's challenging though
Interesting perspective. For me I'm disabled and chronically ill for the term gatekeeping comes into play a lot for me in managing my rare and complex illnesses. Alone mind you as a woman. I'm facing infantilization much of the time, as I'm autistic as well and go to my appointments alone. For example I went to see my nutritionist the first time who not knowing me didn't understand much and therefore assumed a lot. When discussing a meal plan moving forward we were working the session with a stapled group of papers. I informed here I did best with most info than less but she state " she did want to overwhelm me" active grabbing the papers from my grasp. I had to advocate for the entire package that day. At home, I learned she had printed this list off an uncertified patients web page. That this was all information I could have gathered myself with the right guidance and that it's truly just a matter of opening the right gate of knowledge. If i didnt have medicaid this would be costing outrageously which is disgusting which is why gatekeeping in medicine is loathesome. So, With that package of papers I was able to read the resources she did off the web page and to learn what she did. I actually know quite a bit more now and just use her as an alarm check in system for my doctors. I truly appreciate you point of view though because ablism hits in all kinds of ways and it's important to keep these things in perspective
I've definitely noticed people increasingly using the term to mean "not sharing information" in literally any scenario... really strange. When I think of gatekeeping, it's more like invalidating someone's identity or otherwise telling them they can't use a given label, because the gatekeepers mean to police who's allowed into their club. The punk scene story and BLM are really interesting as examples of how maybe that can be good; keeping out those seeking extraction or dilution for the good of the group or movement. Sometimes I question it, though. A good example I've seen recently is the debate raging among horror writers regarding the "cozy horror" genre that's been popping up more recently. One side, the gatekeepers, believe horror should be scary, and that cutesy authors are childish, disingenuous and extractive, just using the label to cash in as these works have tended to be popular compared to "traditional" horrifying horror. But how do you prove that, and who gets to decide what bears the name of a genre? In this case I don't really think the gatekeeping is warranted, but idk??
People like things for specific reasons. Fandoms rise up around that shared interest. It's easy to say "no one is stopping you from enjoying The Thing" or "no one is forcing you to stop making The Thing", but the reality is that in many, though not all, situations, when the fandom grows more popular or alternative styles of that fandom spring up, that it inevitably dilutes The Thing itself. Creators may jump ship to the new version of The Thing seeking a wider audience. Companies may start to cater to the new fans of The Thing because there are more of them, erasing many of the aspects that made The Thing appealing to appeal to an even wider audience. Many people don't actually care about The Thing for the sake of it, but rather they simply want to use The Thing as a social club, for attention. Eventually, the new, less invested, more casual fans of The Thing become the majority, and the original fans themselves are ostracized; told they're the problem if they refuse to accept this change. Gatekeeping is vital to prevent these outcomes. As she said in this video, it's really the only way to ensure newcomers intend to contribute to a community, to actually be invested in it, as opposed to simply extracting social value and nothing more. It's important to remember that the gate is a gate, and not a wall, of course, but gatekeeping itself is essential to healthy communities of any kind.
I wonder if not only brands, but also entire social media platforms, benefit from smushing creation and consumption together. As a chronic lurker, but also chronic fan of media (movies, shows, podcasts, books), I feel like I've been passively consuming, which works well for platforms. Yeah, I really resonated with the idea of feeding back into a scene instead of solely extracting from it. Though I do think fandoms can be notorious for a bad form of gatekeeping where they keep out others based only on race, gender, etc
oh my god, yes yes yes thank you so much - i share this view 100% but i've always, always struggled to put the perspective together like this. when people confronted me like "dont you think its good that by now so many people are joining the CSD 'protest'/ BLM demonstrations/[...]?" i really struggle to formulate a brief argument that goes beyond "i KNOW they're just here that ~one~ time for the free party on the street (CSD) / their instagram / performativity" (BLM; though I'm referring explicitly here to young white ppl from privilged backgrounds in Germany (where i live) who came to the first 3 BLM marches and now dont wanna speak about racism anymore.) i literally had a light bulb moment, thank you so much for this puzzle piece ❤
Classical music has ALWAYS been plagued with gatekeeping, where a few (rich donors) people decide which classical pieces get performed. But at the same time, I agree with you on the overall dilution of useful and genuinely important causes caused by a lack of gatekeeping. It's, as always, complex.
oh huh i guess i've only really heard about gatekeeping as like, telling people they're not "real" whatever unless they do things a particular way. which i see nuance in with your examples about drag race and blm signs, but also can really limit the diversity of communities. i had no idea it had any relation to what people buy or advertising prior to this vid.
i am always thinking (& lowkey spiraling into depression) about the consumption=identity model of online existence -- & i really do think that it's worse for the chronically online. i'm a defender of the value of online community, but (as you've said here) most of the spaces where that community thrives are also fundamentally advertising spaces, so it takes active work to build those boundaries. idk. just very depressing the way that so many of us who are like "ugh, i'm not my job!!!" have allowed that to become replaced with.... the stuff we buy? which imo is actually even worse. like i would definitely rather you think of me as my job than as my consumerism????? idk garbage all the way down i guess.
I've been in the comic book and tabletop role-playing game communities for a *really* long time. For me gatekeeping was watching angry white dudes keep women and minorities out of 'our' hobbies. So I hold it in a negative light.
When I was younger those industries were dominated by guys but not because they were keeping anyone else out, There was no racial distinction at all but the majority where white simply because that was the racial make up of white majority counties at the time, And whenever a woman joined in everyone would be elated because they saw it as validation of their hobby. Most commonly though if you tried to get women involved they would tell you you were stupid and wasting your time, That it was silly and childish to be playing games. I'm glad this view is less common amongst modern woman. So I feel lie your experience was possibly the result of hanging out with terrible people. I'm sorry you went through that but you really shouldn't stereotype all people based on race or sex.
@@Cha4k I'm not sure if you're trolling but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. My experiences are based on *40 years* of being in these hobbies and more importantly listening to the women I've encountered. So many women, *so many*, that I have known or read what they've said online have the lived experience I describe. Your personal lived experience has not been universal.
one of my somewhat-friends in high school asked me about a Bright Eyes tee I was wearing once. he got all excited and asked if I'd gotten it at a concert. then he got very judgemental when I admitted that I bought it at a store (yes, it was probably Hot Topic lmao) I still remember how icky I felt after that. I didn't feel like I was allowed to wear it. I kept it though, and I still have it a decade and a half later. I'm glad I didn't get rid of it, because Bright Eyes was my best friend's favorite, and played a big part in my life at that time also LOL @ sewing the sides of shirts 😂 I got that same best friend's mom to do that for me when I was still trying very hard to be a girl 😅
I think I don't agree (feels weird hence exclamation point lol)! When emos in my home town said I couldn't possibly like emo music, that was defs gatekeeping. I agree that not diluting your local punk scene or letting posers and people who don't understand what they're doing into activist scenes is awful, but I don't think it's gatekeeping. You actively want people to come in, you just want the secret handshake or passcode that makes sure they should be in, not turning away all comers who look or act or speak a certain way? Maybe I'm splitting hairs lol, but I think the term is overloaded, and gatekeeping (derogatory usage) and gatekeeping (filtering bad actors out of community usage) is ground we can cede to new terms. Defs agree that someone hiding where they got their skirt is gatekeeping, who cares though lol.
Yeah, I like framing it as ensuring that the people in a community are in line with its ethos. Maybe we should rebrand this form of gatekeeping as filtering.
When emos in your home town said that you couldn't possibly like emo music, that was their uninformed opinion. If you show them your emo music vocabulary and inside jokes/memes, they would understand and let you in the community. That's like the secret handshake/passcode you described.
@@oluOnline Yeah, I think filtering has to be in a non-judgemental (and in this case not-racist) context. Verifying you're part of a scene should not have altertior motives. And I agree that there is a fine but important line between filtering your community for bad actors and pretending to be in some exclusive club because you want to feel special. That kind of attitude is not community-building anyway. (Realizing it's also an anterior motive, lol.)
definitely not splitting hairs. (brown queer multi-hyphenate punk here). there's a running pattern of yt people in various alt subcultures appointing themselves gatekeepers and authorities on said subcultures/music genres, and in terms of music it's often defining said music related subculture by the artists who they think define it ... which is always racialised. ultimately we do not owe them anything, let alone proving that we engage with their yt flavour of the subculture. and honestly not being "part of the punk scene" in the city where I live and which has always been home to me doesn't make me less punk. their "punk scene" here is yt majority superspreader inaccessible no-longer-free-entry gigs and nothing more. which is about as antithetical with actual punk ethos as you can get. sure, there's other ways to engage with 'the scene', but if i did, that energy i'd put in ultimately end up being unreciprocated and undervalued. and that scene? i don't want to engage. it's exhausting, inaccessible, hostile and very often actively harmful. just wanted to say this. bc the idea of 'verifying you're part of a scene' doesn't exist in a good faith race-free vacuum. ultimately there's no way for yt alt people to do this not in a racialised way. you can't 'anti racist self education' your way into still gatekeeping 'your' 'scene' if you're still trying to do the latter and appointing yourself as someone who has any place to do it, and assuming people you meet "need to be vetted".
I finally got to watch this after my volume issues resolved themselves! I'm so glad I found RadishTime - no sponsors, no sleazy ulterior motives, just content to make people really think & engage the world.❤
I think it matters a great deal who is doing the gatekeeping when we're talking about culture and communities. In my community the gatekeeping is done primarily BY white men who only consume/extract and it's to keep out marginalized people who they don't see as being a genuine part of it even though those are the people doing the majority of the "mix tapes and fan art" type creation.
I feel like I'm missing some context for this video and feel like I don't understand what the word means or that you used it in a different way than I would, but maybe that's just because it is used so broadly and I have a different relationship to the word because I encounter it less, since I'm not a native English speaker. Question: Is gatekeeping a word that is used outside of the internet and academia??
A lot of my exposure to gatekeeping is more "if you don't do xyz to prove yourself, you aren't really as interested in something or don't belong in this space". You can apply that to pretty much any social situation. I don't hear people say this much irl but it definitely does happen.
Something I love about the English language is that there aren’t really any synonyms. Damp does not mean the same thing as moist. And we need to take that even further, and stop using one word for multiple things and ideas. Do you know how many vastly different things we just call “pepper?” _Too many!_ We are smart enough and creative enough to give each idea or object a distinct set of sounds and letters to identify it. I just have no idea how to get anyone else to adopt this strategy.
Yeah, I think gatekeeping can work in some contexts. Like making sure to keep bigots out of spaces, like in punk spaces. Maybe there should be different words to describe these different type of gatekeeping. Growing up in the geek and nerd subculture there was a lot of gatekeeping on making sure what media consumed and had the "correct" fan identity. Which wasn't helpful nor making fandoms welcoming. And still made consuming the "right" media to have the "right" to be in those spaces. Maybe those should be called something like social gatekeeping or gatekeeping unfairly or something of the sort. And maybe the same can be applied to other forms of gatekeeping. I feel like most of the time words are subjected to change and this can either be a good or bad thing depending on how people change or misconstrue it and how it's used from then on. Especially when a word is used as a joke or just used incorrectly.
Gatekeeping is good because it stops undesirables from ruining the hobbies and spaces that you love and enjoy enough to seek escape from reality with. Simple. UwU
![[[OFFICIAL MV]] เอิ้นขวัญให้อ้าย- อ๊ะอาย สกุณาพร | ค่ายเพลงเป็นหนึ่ง](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/83x6L3X3qh0/mqdefault.jpg)
i love the idea that one can feed back into a culture and not just consume it, i think that's a lost art.
i feel like endless-scroll ui design has made me much worse at it! it’s a skill i have to force myself to practice
@@ItsRadishTimehow do you practice it?
That connection between consumption and creation is so powerful. That, in a modern world where creation is devalued by industrialization buying things takes the place of making things…oof! That is where we are and it makes perfect sense and but I do not think it is good!!
Being apart of creation and not just consumption is a great way to word something I've been thinking about for a while.
I really wanna get better at creating and not just consuming; it's challenging though
Interesting perspective. For me I'm disabled and chronically ill for the term gatekeeping comes into play a lot for me in managing my rare and complex illnesses. Alone mind you as a woman. I'm facing infantilization much of the time, as I'm autistic as well and go to my appointments alone.
For example I went to see my nutritionist the first time who not knowing me didn't understand much and therefore assumed a lot. When discussing a meal plan moving forward we were working the session with a stapled group of papers. I informed here I did best with most info than less but she state " she did want to overwhelm me" active grabbing the papers from my grasp. I had to advocate for the entire package that day.
At home, I learned she had printed this list off an uncertified patients web page. That this was all information I could have gathered myself with the right guidance and that it's truly just a matter of opening the right gate of knowledge. If i didnt have medicaid this would be costing outrageously which is disgusting which is why gatekeeping in medicine is loathesome. So, With that package of papers I was able to read the resources she did off the web page and to learn what she did. I actually know quite a bit more now and just use her as an alarm check in system for my doctors.
I truly appreciate you point of view though because ablism hits in all kinds of ways and it's important to keep these things in perspective
I've definitely noticed people increasingly using the term to mean "not sharing information" in literally any scenario... really strange. When I think of gatekeeping, it's more like invalidating someone's identity or otherwise telling them they can't use a given label, because the gatekeepers mean to police who's allowed into their club.
The punk scene story and BLM are really interesting as examples of how maybe that can be good; keeping out those seeking extraction or dilution for the good of the group or movement.
Sometimes I question it, though. A good example I've seen recently is the debate raging among horror writers regarding the "cozy horror" genre that's been popping up more recently. One side, the gatekeepers, believe horror should be scary, and that cutesy authors are childish, disingenuous and extractive, just using the label to cash in as these works have tended to be popular compared to "traditional" horrifying horror. But how do you prove that, and who gets to decide what bears the name of a genre? In this case I don't really think the gatekeeping is warranted, but idk??
People like things for specific reasons. Fandoms rise up around that shared interest. It's easy to say "no one is stopping you from enjoying The Thing" or "no one is forcing you to stop making The Thing", but the reality is that in many, though not all, situations, when the fandom grows more popular or alternative styles of that fandom spring up, that it inevitably dilutes The Thing itself. Creators may jump ship to the new version of The Thing seeking a wider audience. Companies may start to cater to the new fans of The Thing because there are more of them, erasing many of the aspects that made The Thing appealing to appeal to an even wider audience. Many people don't actually care about The Thing for the sake of it, but rather they simply want to use The Thing as a social club, for attention. Eventually, the new, less invested, more casual fans of The Thing become the majority, and the original fans themselves are ostracized; told they're the problem if they refuse to accept this change. Gatekeeping is vital to prevent these outcomes. As she said in this video, it's really the only way to ensure newcomers intend to contribute to a community, to actually be invested in it, as opposed to simply extracting social value and nothing more. It's important to remember that the gate is a gate, and not a wall, of course, but gatekeeping itself is essential to healthy communities of any kind.
I wonder if not only brands, but also entire social media platforms, benefit from smushing creation and consumption together. As a chronic lurker, but also chronic fan of media (movies, shows, podcasts, books), I feel like I've been passively consuming, which works well for platforms.
Yeah, I really resonated with the idea of feeding back into a scene instead of solely extracting from it. Though I do think fandoms can be notorious for a bad form of gatekeeping where they keep out others based only on race, gender, etc
I looooooved this script, Taylor. Thoughtfully written.
oh my god, yes yes yes thank you so much - i share this view 100% but i've always, always struggled to put the perspective together like this. when people confronted me like "dont you think its good that by now so many people are joining the CSD 'protest'/ BLM demonstrations/[...]?" i really struggle to formulate a brief argument that goes beyond "i KNOW they're just here that ~one~ time for the free party on the street (CSD) / their instagram / performativity" (BLM; though I'm referring explicitly here to young white ppl from privilged backgrounds in Germany (where i live) who came to the first 3 BLM marches and now dont wanna speak about racism anymore.) i literally had a light bulb moment, thank you so much for this puzzle piece ❤
i feel like even that is a step up from just like, reposting graphics to appear correct. it’s so bleak
Classical music has ALWAYS been plagued with gatekeeping, where a few (rich donors) people decide which classical pieces get performed. But at the same time, I agree with you on the overall dilution of useful and genuinely important causes caused by a lack of gatekeeping. It's, as always, complex.
oh huh i guess i've only really heard about gatekeeping as like, telling people they're not "real" whatever unless they do things a particular way. which i see nuance in with your examples about drag race and blm signs, but also can really limit the diversity of communities. i had no idea it had any relation to what people buy or advertising prior to this vid.
i am always thinking (& lowkey spiraling into depression) about the consumption=identity model of online existence -- & i really do think that it's worse for the chronically online. i'm a defender of the value of online community, but (as you've said here) most of the spaces where that community thrives are also fundamentally advertising spaces, so it takes active work to build those boundaries. idk. just very depressing the way that so many of us who are like "ugh, i'm not my job!!!" have allowed that to become replaced with.... the stuff we buy? which imo is actually even worse. like i would definitely rather you think of me as my job than as my consumerism????? idk garbage all the way down i guess.
I've been in the comic book and tabletop role-playing game communities for a *really* long time. For me gatekeeping was watching angry white dudes keep women and minorities out of 'our' hobbies. So I hold it in a negative light.
When I was younger those industries were dominated by guys but not because they were keeping anyone else out, There was no racial distinction at all but the majority where white simply because that was the racial make up of white majority counties at the time, And whenever a woman joined in everyone would be elated because they saw it as validation of their hobby. Most commonly though if you tried to get women involved they would tell you you were stupid and wasting your time, That it was silly and childish to be playing games. I'm glad this view is less common amongst modern woman.
So I feel lie your experience was possibly the result of hanging out with terrible people. I'm sorry you went through that but you really shouldn't stereotype all people based on race or sex.
@@Cha4k I'm not sure if you're trolling but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. My experiences are based on *40 years* of being in these hobbies and more importantly listening to the women I've encountered. So many women, *so many*, that I have known or read what they've said online have the lived experience I describe. Your personal lived experience has not been universal.
Maybe you should be gatekept out yourself.
For listening to women's lived experiences? What an odd thing to say.
one of my somewhat-friends in high school asked me about a Bright Eyes tee I was wearing once. he got all excited and asked if I'd gotten it at a concert. then he got very judgemental when I admitted that I bought it at a store (yes, it was probably Hot Topic lmao)
I still remember how icky I felt after that. I didn't feel like I was allowed to wear it. I kept it though, and I still have it a decade and a half later. I'm glad I didn't get rid of it, because Bright Eyes was my best friend's favorite, and played a big part in my life at that time
also LOL @ sewing the sides of shirts 😂
I got that same best friend's mom to do that for me when I was still trying very hard to be a girl 😅
I think I don't agree (feels weird hence exclamation point lol)!
When emos in my home town said I couldn't possibly like emo music, that was defs gatekeeping. I agree that not diluting your local punk scene or letting posers and people who don't understand what they're doing into activist scenes is awful, but I don't think it's gatekeeping. You actively want people to come in, you just want the secret handshake or passcode that makes sure they should be in, not turning away all comers who look or act or speak a certain way?
Maybe I'm splitting hairs lol, but I think the term is overloaded, and gatekeeping (derogatory usage) and gatekeeping (filtering bad actors out of community usage) is ground we can cede to new terms. Defs agree that someone hiding where they got their skirt is gatekeeping, who cares though lol.
Yeah, I like framing it as ensuring that the people in a community are in line with its ethos. Maybe we should rebrand this form of gatekeeping as filtering.
When emos in your home town said that you couldn't possibly like emo music, that was their uninformed opinion. If you show them your emo music vocabulary and inside jokes/memes, they would understand and let you in the community. That's like the secret handshake/passcode you described.
@@sexyscientist they said it was cos I was black ha ha ha, the questioning left no room for reply
@@oluOnline Yeah, I think filtering has to be in a non-judgemental (and in this case not-racist) context. Verifying you're part of a scene should not have altertior motives.
And I agree that there is a fine but important line between filtering your community for bad actors and pretending to be in some exclusive club because you want to feel special. That kind of attitude is not community-building anyway. (Realizing it's also an anterior motive, lol.)
definitely not splitting hairs. (brown queer multi-hyphenate punk here). there's a running pattern of yt people in various alt subcultures appointing themselves gatekeepers and authorities on said subcultures/music genres, and in terms of music it's often defining said music related subculture by the artists who they think define it ... which is always racialised. ultimately we do not owe them anything, let alone proving that we engage with their yt flavour of the subculture.
and honestly not being "part of the punk scene" in the city where I live and which has always been home to me doesn't make me less punk.
their "punk scene" here is yt majority superspreader inaccessible no-longer-free-entry gigs and nothing more. which is about as antithetical with actual punk ethos as you can get. sure, there's other ways to engage with 'the scene', but if i did, that energy i'd put in ultimately end up being unreciprocated and undervalued. and that scene? i don't want to engage. it's exhausting, inaccessible, hostile and very often actively harmful.
just wanted to say this. bc the idea of 'verifying you're part of a scene' doesn't exist in a good faith race-free vacuum. ultimately there's no way for yt alt people to do this not in a racialised way. you can't 'anti racist self education' your way into still gatekeeping 'your' 'scene' if you're still trying to do the latter and appointing yourself as someone who has any place to do it, and assuming people you meet "need to be vetted".
I finally got to watch this after my volume issues resolved themselves!
I'm so glad I found RadishTime - no sponsors, no sleazy ulterior motives, just content to make people really think & engage the world.❤
I think it matters a great deal who is doing the gatekeeping when we're talking about culture and communities. In my community the gatekeeping is done primarily BY white men who only consume/extract and it's to keep out marginalized people who they don't see as being a genuine part of it even though those are the people doing the majority of the "mix tapes and fan art" type creation.
I feel like I'm missing some context for this video and feel like I don't understand what the word means or that you used it in a different way than I would, but maybe that's just because it is used so broadly and I have a different relationship to the word because I encounter it less, since I'm not a native English speaker.
Question: Is gatekeeping a word that is used outside of the internet and academia??
A lot of my exposure to gatekeeping is more "if you don't do xyz to prove yourself, you aren't really as interested in something or don't belong in this space". You can apply that to pretty much any social situation. I don't hear people say this much irl but it definitely does happen.
@@shoyuramenoff But it's also, as Taylor described, the nitpicking of the content by mainstream media.
@@sexyscientistthey're looking for a more straightforward definition and a place to start. They can just watch the video for her perspective.
Something I love about the English language is that there aren’t really any synonyms. Damp does not mean the same thing as moist. And we need to take that even further, and stop using one word for multiple things and ideas. Do you know how many vastly different things we just call “pepper?” _Too many!_ We are smart enough and creative enough to give each idea or object a distinct set of sounds and letters to identify it. I just have no idea how to get anyone else to adopt this strategy.
Love the editing on this video!
seconded
I swear the volume isn't working on this video. I think my device is fine (checked other vids) but something here is super weird
Fine for me, Abigael.
Spot on.
Yeah, I think gatekeeping can work in some contexts. Like making sure to keep bigots out of spaces, like in punk spaces.
Maybe there should be different words to describe these different type of gatekeeping. Growing up in the geek and nerd subculture there was a lot of gatekeeping on making sure what media consumed and had the "correct" fan identity. Which wasn't helpful nor making fandoms welcoming. And still made consuming the "right" media to have the "right" to be in those spaces. Maybe those should be called something like social gatekeeping or gatekeeping unfairly or something of the sort. And maybe the same can be applied to other forms of gatekeeping.
I feel like most of the time words are subjected to change and this can either be a good or bad thing depending on how people change or misconstrue it and how it's used from then on. Especially when a word is used as a joke or just used incorrectly.
Punk spaces hahaha.
@@ivantoxie?
@@rockpooladmirer?
asoiaf is haunting this video's url
lmaoo i just noticed
Gatekeeping is good because it stops undesirables from ruining the hobbies and spaces that you love and enjoy enough to seek escape from reality with. Simple. UwU
i gotta ask you if you watched the video my guy bc this is a video about advertising practices
❤
@mrbeast