If you have 13 pitchers on the team, (5 starters and 8 relievers), if they each just face the entire opposing lineup once each appearance and do it every other game figure that's 2 innings each, that'd get them through 6 games.
@@kevinrusch3627 no room for error though. You literally need everything to go perfect and we all know it doesn’t. That’s why this has become too over engineered.
I also think it has something to do with the same reason you get starters out too soon, which is you don't want the hitters to see them too much. The 3 guys for Cleveland were gassed coming into the series with the Yankees and they pitched every other game. Managers should reconsider bullpen use, particularly in 7 game series. Unless the guy is elite, the hitters are going to figure him out the more they see him. I really feel like Vogt's strategy was going to fail even worse if the series went deep.
Steven’s method was flawed because putting everyone out there someone will have an off night go look back at the box scores like clockwork 2 of the guys had an off night and others were pulled prematurely
Love the insight! Good to see the stats but also the batters are seeing the same 3 guys over and over. Thoughts on how basically every pitcher throws 95 with a "wipe out slider" and little variation?
Those guys had to pitch so much because Cleveland didn't really have great starting pitching. Mo had several seasons over 70ip as a reliever. The man was definitely a unicorn.
What's your point? The 2015 Royals had 2 relievers who threw more than the 65-68 appearance sweet spot he mentioned: Kelvin Herrera had 72 appearances Wade Davis had 69 appearances They both did fine in the postseason. But some of their other bullpen guys sucked in the postseason and they were at that 68 appearance threshold and none of their other bullpen guys were even over 50 appearances in the regular season. The Guards used 4 guys over 70 times in the regular season and then used them just about every game in the postseason and fell off hard
@@zacharyboblitt1244 the 2014 royals had 5 starters go over 180 innings… the 2024 guardians had…. 0. When you overuse your bullpen in the regular season, it comes back to haunt you in the playoffs. It’s cumulative and that’s Trevor’s point.
74 in 2004 was his most games and a mid year in terms of era but had a lot of saves. 2005 interestingly enough was his best era year and he threw 71 games. his highest amount of raw innings was '96 before he was a closer at 107.2 but in less appearences
The Dodgers had some pretty good starting pitching, though. Cleveland did not. Their starting pitching was not only below average, it was near the bottom.
@@Jarhead2318 2014 Hererra 7th Davis 8th Holland the 9th ----2015 Hocheavar 6th Hererra 7th Davis 8th..then 9th when Holland got hurt...EVERY GAME....lame take by this guy...
Did you even look up their stats before talking out of your ass? Lmao the Cleveland relievers each had 20+ more innings than any of those royals relievers
I think if francona was still coaching Cleveland they would’ve beat the Yankees. Becuase francona tries to get 5 or 6 innings out of his pitchers and uses his elite bullpen he’s alway had there as a backup. But Vogt as soon as the starter starts giving up multiple hits he’s gone and bullpen gets overused
Eh...I kind of agree and I kind of don't. Bibee was getting absolutely shelled in Game 2 of the ALCS. Vogt pulled him because of that and because he knew he'd probably need to start him again on short rest. That part of his strategy actually worked for Game 5, but I'd argue Vogt's pride got in the way and he should've just walked Stanton to get to Chisolm, who was hitting terribly. I think the big problem with Vogt in the playoffs was more of his overuse of PHing players very early in the game, often replacing a player that hadn't even batted yet. Vogt also really had his hands tied with the starting rotation. The only one who consistently performed well was Boyd; the others were getting shelled.
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I also think that facing the same batters multiple times during a season reduces your overall effectiveness. (The same problem that starters have)
and when you're going to see the same guys over potentially a 7 game series, they're going to fail even worse.
it has to
If you have 13 pitchers on the team, (5 starters and 8 relievers), if they each just face the entire opposing lineup once each appearance and do it every other game figure that's 2 innings each, that'd get them through 6 games.
@@kevinrusch3627 no room for error though. You literally need everything to go perfect and we all know it doesn’t. That’s why this has become too over engineered.
Somewhere, Mike Marshall is looking down and watching this video, thinking "So... Walt sending me out there 106 times in 1974 was a little high?"
Trevor May is a GOAT
I’d love to see this breakdown for the two teams still in it.
I also think it has something to do with the same reason you get starters out too soon, which is you don't want the hitters to see them too much. The 3 guys for Cleveland were gassed coming into the series with the Yankees and they pitched every other game. Managers should reconsider bullpen use, particularly in 7 game series. Unless the guy is elite, the hitters are going to figure him out the more they see him. I really feel like Vogt's strategy was going to fail even worse if the series went deep.
Steven’s method was flawed because putting everyone out there someone will have an off night go look back at the box scores like clockwork 2 of the guys had an off night and others were pulled prematurely
Can someone send this to the Brewers
Completely agree. Cleveland's strategy was doomed from the start. They were lucky not to be swept.
Love the insight! Good to see the stats but also the batters are seeing the same 3 guys over and over. Thoughts on how basically every pitcher throws 95 with a "wipe out slider" and little variation?
I’d be interested to hear the same stuff about Clase since he had the biggest fall off out of that bullpen
He just got got. All of his metrics were exactly the same and his command wasn't glaringly different.
Those guys had to pitch so much because Cleveland didn't really have great starting pitching. Mo had several seasons over 70ip as a reliever. The man was definitely a unicorn.
Trevor ur so underrated
Tell that to the 2015 Kansas City Royals my friend.
Thought the exact same thing. 2014 numbers were even better, just came up 90ft short….
What's your point?
The 2015 Royals had 2 relievers who threw more than the 65-68 appearance sweet spot he mentioned:
Kelvin Herrera had 72 appearances
Wade Davis had 69 appearances
They both did fine in the postseason. But some of their other bullpen guys sucked in the postseason and they were at that 68 appearance threshold and none of their other bullpen guys were even over 50 appearances in the regular season.
The Guards used 4 guys over 70 times in the regular season and then used them just about every game in the postseason and fell off hard
@@ryanwest6529 I can tell you didn’t watch any of the 13-16 Royals…. 2014 was the bullpen year, I even mentioned that.
@@zacharyboblitt1244 the 2014 royals had 5 starters go over 180 innings… the 2024 guardians had…. 0. When you overuse your bullpen in the regular season, it comes back to haunt you in the playoffs. It’s cumulative and that’s Trevor’s point.
I had this concern about riding the bullpen all year long. I knew it was doomed to fail in the playoffs.
bro knows marketing monday
Ever thought of being a pitching coach?
Always? The Dodgers are leading the postseason in relief innings.
Wait wait wait. Rivera didn’t pitch in 75 games in 1996 or any other year? I’m legit asking, I thought he did
74 in 2004 was his most games and a mid year in terms of era but had a lot of saves. 2005 interestingly enough was his best era year and he threw 71 games. his highest amount of raw innings was '96 before he was a closer at 107.2 but in less appearences
@@calebcormier9062 yea, he was starter in 95 and not a particularly good one, so he setup for wetteland in 96. Took over as closer in 97
Seems to be working for the Dodgers so far 🤷♂️
The Dodgers had some pretty good starting pitching, though. Cleveland did not. Their starting pitching was not only below average, it was near the bottom.
Royals 2014 and 2015.....nuff said.
Beat me to it. They leaned heavily on their bullpen.
@@Jarhead2318 2014 Hererra 7th Davis 8th Holland the 9th ----2015 Hocheavar 6th Hererra 7th Davis 8th..then 9th when Holland got hurt...EVERY GAME....lame take by this guy...
Did you even look up their stats before talking out of your ass? Lmao the Cleveland relievers each had 20+ more innings than any of those royals relievers
Always? 2015 Royals baby 👑
They got length from their starters a few times with Volquez, Guthrie, and Ventura. The Guardians had a starter go 5 once.
So you’re saying the dodgers might be cooked
if their starters can't get through 5 innings they may have a problem
okay betting the house on yankees
I think if francona was still coaching Cleveland they would’ve beat the Yankees. Becuase francona tries to get 5 or 6 innings out of his pitchers and uses his elite bullpen he’s alway had there as a backup. But Vogt as soon as the starter starts giving up multiple hits he’s gone and bullpen gets overused
If Vogt had left his starters in there for 5-6 innings (except for Boyd), the Yankees would've been up 5 runs by the time he got to his pen.
@@EASTcoastKILLA2 your stupid aren’t you
Eh...I kind of agree and I kind of don't. Bibee was getting absolutely shelled in Game 2 of the ALCS. Vogt pulled him because of that and because he knew he'd probably need to start him again on short rest. That part of his strategy actually worked for Game 5, but I'd argue Vogt's pride got in the way and he should've just walked Stanton to get to Chisolm, who was hitting terribly. I think the big problem with Vogt in the playoffs was more of his overuse of PHing players very early in the game, often replacing a player that hadn't even batted yet. Vogt also really had his hands tied with the starting rotation. The only one who consistently performed well was Boyd; the others were getting shelled.