Great comprehensive video, even though I disagree entirely. The cool factor was enough for me to overlook the paradox of multiverse. A few points: -Daedra being creatures of change/chaos but also being unable to change is a long-established contradiction in TES lore. -The books you saw in those Ayleid ruins along the Paths are random. This is the same as complaining about finding fresh apples in a Nordic ruin in Skyrim. Furthermore, ESO actually provides something of an explanation for why the game contains books from different eras (there's at least one time-bending library). -I don't think you understand the jungle plot point from Gold Road. Dawnwood did not exist in the Merethic, it was not inhabited by Bosmer. It was an attempt by Ayleid descendants to restore the jungle of Ald Cyrod, and they planned to cover more of the province. Ignore the Tiber theory, ESO has retconned it since 2014. -Ithelia's sphere of fate overlapping with three other Princes is a point well made, but she is not unique in this. I do agree that a Prince of Defiance would've been more interesting. -The Nine Coruscations is a nice little lore bomb for the folks who *do* know what Magna Ge are. I agree that it is likely of no interest to casual players. -All of the lore inconsistencies she creates are nullified when she gets banished from the setting. To me, the uncanny feeling that she doesn't "work" in TES helps heighten the stakes of getting rid of her.
Hello! I find this comment to be the most convincing "rebuttal" to my points, although I don't even see it that way. I thing your second point is very strong although I always viewed the random loot from chests as a random factor with no real lore answer, sort of a "it does not matter so it might as well be anything" factor, but your point is very well made. I still think that no matter what they butchered this plot story wise by not explaining her, the cosmology behind her and making her look terrible. I also don't see why deadra can't change. They change plans, goals, forms and even fundamental beliefs in several cases. I think what they meant to say was something along the lines of "deadra can only be 1 thing, unlike the eadra that made the world," but even that goes back to the "badly told" part. I am pinning this comment as an "alternative" view :)
I wont. Anything lore wise added by ESo, is not canon to Arena, Daggerfall, and up to Skyrim. Zenimax's "LOREMASTER" Wrote the following: " The Singleplayer games are just fanciful tales, we're telling the real history of Tamriel". No their really not. They do nothing but bastardize better written games that they'll never be able to match writing wise.
ESO didn't retcon the Tiber theory to my knowledge. They simply stated (actually even showed it in the primordial vision given by the Serpent Constellation) that the province had truly been jungled in the past and that it was no longer the case. Lady Taneth in ESO speculates that the Towers may have an influence over reality in a given region depending on whoever controls it but she herself says she's not sure of the explanation. I'd say it has as much weight as the Tiber Theory.
If I had a nickel for every time a forgotten Daedric Prince was too dangerous to be left to their own devices I’d have 2 nickels, which isn’t a lot but it’s weird that it happened twice.
I think the idea of her character is awesome; the comparison of shattered glass and the unraveling of events in seemingly random patterns is SUCH a cool comparison. It just sucks that everything else is so… mid. She’s the daedric prince of paths, her whole domain is supposed to be the meddling and controlling of fate; so why is she also a character in all of the multiverses??? Isn’t she supposed to be in charge of that?? I guess it could be explained with the meddling of Hermaeus Mora and the other princes, that her erasure caused her to lose control over her domain. I really like your idea of her being the prince of defiance; I think that would fill the holes relating to Akatosh, and it could make for some seriously interesting lore and storylines. It supports the idea of the other princes supporting her erasure, and it would make some really cool conflicts between all of them (especially Jyggalag & Sheo. Imagine that lol) They could also really tie in some cool lore about Dragonbreaks in there, too. Like they’re the result of her meddling and caused Akatosh to step in?? It could be supporting lore for linear timeline errors, and another reason why the other princes are against her. Ithelia, Daedric Prince of Defiance & Dragonbreaks?? Would have been SO much cooler than…. whatever this is.
Yeah this video just sums it up perfectly. They didn't think this one through when they came up with this storyline, plus Ithelia looks like a crackhead. Her design also reeks of "OC don't steal." It's like they did the Kirkbride psychedelic trip and threw every idea they had into one addon but they didn't piece everything together properly. The only thing missing from my Bingo card was mixing the Dwemer's disappearance into this addon. Anyways next TES is still probably going to be coming out in 5+ years and they drop bombs like this. I am not feeling hopeful for the future.
I dunno, WoW lore has gone bad for a long time, and it's still alive with xpacs pumped to this day. Maybe normies simply don't give a s**t to the lore and just want to play the game.
I had no idea Ithelia was supposed to be a Magne-ge but that would make her Meridia's sister in a way, Both Meridia and Ithelia were worshiped by the wild elves so they were princes at the same time. That would mean that Ithelia's own sister turned on her and they didn't even touch on that?
(I am writing through Google translator, if something is wrong, it is not my fault) The only way to fix this is to simply say that Sheogorath decided to have fun and sent “dreams” to some dremora, and then pretended to be Ithelia. Due to the fact that this is an insoluble problem, the multiverse is impossible in the Elder Scrolls lore, because it simply contradicts the physics of the world. If they don’t know about this, then they don’t know the lore of the game they are creating, and if they know and still want to push the multiverse simply because it is in Marvel and DC, then everything is even worse. I'm afraid that with the next expansion things will get even worse.
15:00 - That's nothing new. Even in Daggerfall there were books from the future. One of the bigger lore masters on YT said a while back in a video that this was because of Hermaeus Mora. I don't remember which one said it, though.
@@AxisChurchDevotee But those things are still copies of stuff that exist in Mundus. Barbas is a daedric copy of a dog, Umbra is a daedric copy of a sword (also in lore I think Umbra was created by a mortal witch, though it may also have been sheogorath in disguise)
Ithelia contradicting established lore is pretty spot on for her ability as the changer of fates. Nothing is established anymore because everything can change now. It's like her ability is to retcon anything. No wonder Mora hated her lol. I like her.
17:46 I'd disagree, and say that it's the prime reason ESO (and TES since ~Oblivion) is bad writing, if not bad gameplay.... Simplifying, dumbing down, etc... is not something Tolkien did, and look how popular he is. Why shouldn't TES be the same? With 'deep lore' that more or less ensures the exclusivity of its fanbase and interest. Why is mainstream appeal desirable, as a fan? From a marketing perspective, sure, but that's never a good thing for an actual consumer, much less a fan, to care about when it comes to a creative property. TESlore has been increasingly ignored, and simplified/streamlined now for about 15 years. So, those who are into it now? are the 'nu-crowd'.... it's always going to be trite and shallow, perhaps it always was, though I don't think so. The saddest thing is the potential of the lore vs. its execution / apologists. Why thank someone whose actively made you dumber, chopped down your trees and then demanded payment?
TBF, I can get why. Its because "generic fantasy" sells more. IE generic European fantasy with knights and dragons and princesses, etc. Plus from a gameplay standpoint, I can also get it. Traversing through an open world jungle would be a pain in the ass, and make lower end PCs/Laptops and even older consoles lag.
Firstly gotta confess- never played ESO, likely never will because I'm too busy :( but I'm always interested in what new ideas come out (who really think we plays these games for years upon years just for the gameplay?) Also to preface nothing here is cannon if you don't like it ;) It's so strange that they did a multiverse story within Elder Scrolls. Kalpa does not seem to be the exact same thing as multiverse. A multiverse is self contained (apart from those travelling between them) whilst Kalpas seem to string along from each other, both concurrently and consequently to each other- hence the Umaril's father emerging from a previous Kalpa, or how the Hist (and possibly Dwemer and Falmer, but that mostly head-theory/cannon( and no not because Dwemer were super advanced or anything)) arrived from another kalpa, or Lyg and that is let alone the time broken Dawn age where time looping back on itself is the sanest part of this time. The universe already has the mechanics in place to do stories about traversing Kalpas, yet instead we get silly multi-universe that contradicts the ideas of Kalpa. Mortals can traverse Kalpas, but only lineally (They can jump down the rope to the next kalpa, but there is no indication whatsoever of side stepping time into different kalpas within the ES universe), this seems to be because every mortal being is bounded by time and therefore has no other way to travel it but to fall down. Also I have to agree with you on her sphere, again this is what I can glance from the internet but it just seems all to covered already by other princes. Personally there are already too many daedric princes encompassing too many similar themes, Boethiah and Mephala, Vaermina and Namira etc so to add ever more similar princes feels kind of redundant and from an outsider feels more like a wooshy bit of marketing over "A NEW MYSTERIOUS DAEDRA"... eh but I'm probably just too dumb to understand or something. A more inspired story with these concepts could include a dead Lovecraftian like entity from a dead kalpa, maybe the dead sea god of the elder scrolls, who's carapace was stolen by Mr H Mora and is left to drift the edges of Nirn until one is worthy of giving their body to him. IDK Could still make him entity of paths or whatever wishy washy thing they wanted, in fact a dead god from a dead kalpa might be more knowledgeable on dead paths, idk again. Now give me 20,000₫ or your social credit number.
I’m surprised Todd Howard didn’t intervene to prevent this cringe, like he did when zenimax said they wanted to explore the disappearance of the dwemer
I'm surprised that this "dlc" (and calling it that is generous of me) doesn't end with a handwritten note that says: "Note: Ithelia died on the way back to his home planet"
she looks like a modern woman cosplaying as an OC anime character. there was no need for a completely new never before seen or mentioned antagonist with bs ad hoc asspull shoehorning when the other daedric princes could be fleshed out more. Bethesda can't stop taking Ls.
Alternate universes & the Multiverse have existed in TES for decades (including in ESO), but the way it's introduced in Gold Road makes no sense and contradicts everything (and I too was very excited for how they did Ithelia). The way Gold Road did it made it all feel so...mundane.
@@edgyebi1610 The Warp in the West & Dragon Breaks, the main story of Summerset (which mentions the Multiverse by name), the Psijic questline, multiplayer in Shadowkey is done via connecting with different parallel worlds via Shadow Magic, the Multiverse is also mentioned in Black Reach IIRC and the Introduction the the Lore of the Elder Scrolls Online.
@@hyperios4756 The Warp in the West & Dragon Breaks - neither are examples of Alternate universes or a Multiverse. The multiplayer mechanic in Shadowkey - an obscure game available only on the Nokia N-Gage and N-Gage QD developed by Vir2L Studios Summerset, Psijic questline, and other ESO examples - more ESO slop So nothing from a mainline game huh? That's some weak evidence.
@@edgyebi1610 The Warp in the West involves alternate timelimes overlapping. Shadowkey being obscure or on a phone game doesn't stop it from being canon; Azra Nightwielder's Shadow Magic is mentioned directly in Skyrim by Neloth. What you or I think of ESO doesn't matter; it's still completely canon as said by both Zenimax and BGS. The Warp of the West which I have already mentioned is from a mainline game (plus Arena's main story is saving the Emperor from an alternate dimension). The cosmology being repeatedly called 'the Multiverse' is literally the opposite of weak evidence.
I was shocked by how terrible this writing was. I just finished all the quests about 10 minutes ago and... DUDE... THAT CHARACTER REEKS OF FANFICTION! I was expecting something more respectful of the land of Varen, something that would clarify what happened to Clivia Tharn, provide insights into the leaders of the three alliances, and touch on other classic aspects of Colovian culture. But dude... they used all their creativity on Shalidor's wife's scribing quests, giving all the "gold" of the personality to those animal-like creatures; and the "Scooby-Doo-like" quest (where we can't even think and choose the suspects, because the quest solves the mystery for us). What do we get? A band of Wood Elves claiming Ayleid ancestry! IN COLOVIA! The only good things about this DLC are the map, the items, and the gameplay in general. It's perfect for players who just skip the dialogues and go after the items, but it's a real eyesore for those who were expecting more from this promise. Necrom wasn't perfect, but at least we got some Dunmer culture and Vaermina's passionate struggle to overcome Mora, Peryite followers, and Torvesad.
I was stoked for Ithelia too, and while it sucks to hear they were handled poorly here, I want to see what mods for Skyrim and ESVI do with them. An MMO intro doesn't seem to be the best way to introduce a new Daedra, but I love the idea of the new daedra.
Why even try to make a weird multiverse that contradicts pre established lore? When the elder scrolls is already basically a multiverse? There are essentially infinite realms of oblivion which are infinite in size, tes verse is much bigger than one would assume. Why try to make the scale even bigger when you already have beings such as "the amaranth" anu, lorkan, etc etc... Some of them quite literally omnipotent beings, like what purpose does this have? The scope of the elder scrolls is already massive even without this new multiverse thing I also don't really like the storyline of "im gonna imprison myself on the off chance that something bad may happen" Like.... You're a daedric lord... Most of you don't give a damn about mortals, and for those that do it's usually just for their own amusement or narcissistic tendencies. I just find it hard to believe that someone would willingly imprison themselves forever, especially a daedric lord. To be fair, i haven't really plaid eso in the last few years, but of the few lore bits i gathered from it, i don't really like what im seeing. You want to add multiple timelines and different multiverses? Ok, but the major gods should supersede this, there should only be 1 akatosh, 1 hermeus mora, 1 trinimac etc etc... As far as i know there aren't multiple one above all for example, because he's literally the supreme god, daedras and aedras should have been treated the same way, because they are supreme beings who have control over certain aspects of reality. It also causes a lot of problems because if she had multiple versions of herself and every god has multiple versions of themselves, then why didn't they interfere which each other already? Sure, she can manipulate fate, but if the multiverse is already established and has multiple versions of the same gods then im sure they would be able to interfere with each other even without her. Or are they saying they she has literally the power to replicate multiple realities with omnipotent gods in them which would make her an absurdly powerful character beyond what's reasonable compared to other greater gods aside the very top like anu and the amaranth? Like are you serious eso? So now im supposed to believe that a daedric lord which are already practically omnipotent, now she's as powerful as anu? Or even worse the literal creator of the dream who all other gods and reality itself spawned from? I have issues with both narrative and power scaling when it comes to her. All of this would have been greatly lessened if only they didn't make it so different universes have different versions of the same gods, in my opinion that was THE major mistake. I could accept multiple tribunals, or multiple lesser gods in general, but multiple daedras and aderas? NO. I don't have any particular problem with the multiverse thing itself, i have issues with how it was narrated.
Many paths is a fine concept. Multiversity already existed with Shadow magic. She "doesn't work" because she pretty much stole your Jygalag's spot as the biggest daedric threat. Rest is Elder Scrolls fandom's nostalgia for their favorite prince.
Question: Why isn't Ithelia just Mnemo-Li? Dragon Breaks, Elder Scrolls, time manipulation, defiance of Akatosh, ties to the MC, it all fits well enough and could easily be expanded on into what we have now (or preferably something better). Why make her this White Star? It's redundant. Making her the Blue Star also helps this "multiverse" actually exist in pre-existing lore...By not being a multiverse, exactly. 13:05 That's a great idea. Also, already what Mehrunes Dagon is. Mankar Camoran chose well when ""defying" the Aedra and making a new realm. Ithelia is simply too redundant and any time the writers try to make her more unique it contradicts something, even if it's their own lore. My pitch is to make her Mnemo-Li, and allow her to be a walking, talking Elder Scroll/Dragon Break. Time warps around her, and through her glass she can show these "alternate timelines" that are simultaneously not real, and real. We know that the future is fluid for the Elder Scrolls, but the past is stagnant. Why not allow Ithelia to show these fluid futures right out of the gate, but the threat is that she has the potential to render the past fluid as well, potentially undoing your own birth or something, and that's why you must stop her. This could explain the Cyrodil jungle for example. Talos got rid of it even in the past, but Ithelia can bring it back, a perfect example of her power without the need for full parallel universes.
Hi, I really enjoy your videos. Thank you for the vigilant vids. Watched a bunch more after finding that one. Now I eagerly await the next. Keep it up my guy🔥
I'm just confused about the Magna Ge becoming a daedric prince thing. Not that it's not possible (since this is what Meridia is) but to my knowledge the difference between the two is basically a formality and becoming a daedric prince wouldn't really be an "upgrade".
This seems like such a shame but I get what they were going for. If I were designing this, though, I would have probably avoided copy/pasting Meridia's origin and would have made it ao that all her alternative paths just suddenly end and become finite deminsions, almost like shards of possibly broken off from the whole mirrior rather than inserting a whole multiverse. At this point multiverses where "this is like ours except XYZ happened" are everywhere and really don't add much to existing stories beyond fan services and cheap jokes.
"draedra cant change" bruh compare the Daedric Princes in Skyrim to how they're shown in other games (or portrayed in lore) and Sheogorath + Meridia + Barnabas literally had character development. Admitedly it could just as easily had been a roll of the dice thing and they just woke up on the right side of bed that century (plus Sheo is *technically* a different guy) IN THEORY i like the concept of new daedric princes, but i would have preferred if it was one the players just never met before bc they cared more for oblivion than nirn- because that'd expand the vastness of oblivion as a dimension and all that. But yeah this whole multiverse thing wasnt very well done also on the jungle question at this point, this far along, i just decided that Tiber retroactively unjungled the place with his Royalty because its the coolest option tbh
Daedra are the literally the concept of change and non stasis, they're padomayic in nature. They will keep changing and molding until the dragon eats it's own tail
I have always considered the princes to be more like weather, yes weather ebb's and flows and changes everyday but for the most part it is predictable. The princes never stray far from their concepts, Uncle Sheo will always be crazy and Molag Bal will always be a c word, a thunder storm will always be a thunder storm no matter what part of the world it is at. This is what made Jyggalag so powerful he could put a tornado in a box and put it on his shelf all neat like because he was static and unchanging so strict in his concept.
@@deadsoul7409 I think it was more related to their nymics and how they are bound to certain roles in the universe - "Daedra are bound by their Nymics, and cannot change beyond their nature. As Daedra reconstitute exactly as according to their Nymic if they are destroyed, Nymics can be thought of as a pattern or formula that defines the being created when it manifests itself from the eternal chaos of Oblivion. Daedra fear the possibility of an enemy learning their Nymic, and guard them preciously"
I think it works, but to be honest, since she is a new Prince, everything is just words. The only person who really cares about her threat is Mora, who would have seen her immortal enemy, very much like Molag Baal and Meridia hate each others guts. All the Daedric Princes have been established in Lore and reinforced in other Elder Scrolls games. Other Princes Realms have themes that overlap, to me that's not big deal. Azura, Mora about Paths, Peryrite & Namira, Molag and Mehunes. Some share aspects of one another and it hasn't bothered most of the fandom. Ithelia, granting someones chance to live their alternate reality, would spite Mora, since he hates retcons and collects knowledge of what has been. Well if the past is always changing he probably wouldn't like that very much. I think there is great potential for Ithelia to be a real threat if they keep establishing her in other games with Lore and minor quests. Ithelia is pretty much ESO's Scarlet Witch, a bit too uncanny though. Over all I think this story is a prime example of History is told by the Victors and Mora won.
@@YOGI-kb9tg It’s only cool to people who aren’t actually fans. None of this works in the lore at all and forcing her in contradicts every bit of established lore up to this point for the sake of a Mary sue elf insert oc you’d find on deviantart
@roachdoggjr8399 except it does fit and talking about true fans grow up it's not Bethesda have contradicted themselfs and retconned there games to oblivion already and this was green lit by Bethesda as well. You can complain about the character and ESO all you want but her concept is cool and does fit into the established lore and ESO is canon.
We need a new Concept for Gold road instead of a Prince try to get to Tamriel and raise Hell! Devs lets make a NEW Prince, Bugfesta answer WOW your are brilliant.
So Ithelia is meant to be a mirror to Hermaeus Mora right? Shouldn't she resemble an eldric/cosmic horror entity like Nyarlathotep similar to how Mora is based on Yog-sothoth?
As someone who just plays the elder scrolls game I just pretend like ESO lore isn't canon, sadly this will probably only work until elder scrolls 6 where I have no doubt ESO will be mentioned in the lore.. 😢
What even is jygalag? Anui-el's cheap knock off? Greymarch is like a dark brother hood fanclub for anuiel. Aka oversoul is far more crucial to Anui-el's the concept of order. Time & space. Aka and Lorkhan are the only inheritors of these concepts. Not jyg.
I am so so so sick of every fictional world being a multiverse. What's the appeal of the multiverse in fiction other than to ruin all sense of importance and scale? They're so overdone, and they don't improve stories.
I find your comment funny because that's not a problem. That was what her powers were capable of but if you have forgotten. She has been dealt with and so no multiverse bullshit. Your getting annoyed at nothing really this is a prequel so it's obvious she was going to be taken out back like ole fella because they can't have lore that changes or contradicts the mainline games.
@@YOGI-kb9tg I'm not annoyed because of inconsistency in elder scrolls online's story. I'm annoyed by the ubiquity of the trope where writers add a multiverse to every fiction setting for no Doylist reason beyond the fact that everyone else is doing it with their settings. I'm just kind of tired of them. It's overdone, writing a good multiverse is as difficult as introducing time travel mechanics to a story, and much like accessible time travel, a multiverse doesn't serve the stories that a lot of these settings want to tell. And also: not just an elder scrolls problem. This is like a media in general problem where multiverses are becoming really oversaturated in the wake of Marvel's success.
@@Mr_Maiq_The_Liar yea but the multiverse already existed in a sense especially in kirkbrides lore but that's iffy. I get you it's a overblown trope but I think it's not done bad here. She is defeated and we end the multiverse plot.
@YOGI-kb9tg the multiverse concept as far as I know is new in ESO, and a multiverse can't be closed. It's like time travel, sure the storyline about it is over but now you're in a setting that has a fundamentally different concept of causality. The story fondationally shakes up the way causality works in the entire setting by introducing a multiverse then ends the story by trying to return to a status quo where the stories existence has zero consequences doesn't that just sound like bad writing if the Best case scenario for future stories is that its either effectively or literally not canon even though it literally establishes a multiverse?
Great comprehensive video, even though I disagree entirely. The cool factor was enough for me to overlook the paradox of multiverse. A few points:
-Daedra being creatures of change/chaos but also being unable to change is a long-established contradiction in TES lore.
-The books you saw in those Ayleid ruins along the Paths are random. This is the same as complaining about finding fresh apples in a Nordic ruin in Skyrim. Furthermore, ESO actually provides something of an explanation for why the game contains books from different eras (there's at least one time-bending library).
-I don't think you understand the jungle plot point from Gold Road. Dawnwood did not exist in the Merethic, it was not inhabited by Bosmer. It was an attempt by Ayleid descendants to restore the jungle of Ald Cyrod, and they planned to cover more of the province. Ignore the Tiber theory, ESO has retconned it since 2014.
-Ithelia's sphere of fate overlapping with three other Princes is a point well made, but she is not unique in this. I do agree that a Prince of Defiance would've been more interesting.
-The Nine Coruscations is a nice little lore bomb for the folks who *do* know what Magna Ge are. I agree that it is likely of no interest to casual players.
-All of the lore inconsistencies she creates are nullified when she gets banished from the setting. To me, the uncanny feeling that she doesn't "work" in TES helps heighten the stakes of getting rid of her.
Hello! I find this comment to be the most convincing "rebuttal" to my points, although I don't even see it that way. I thing your second point is very strong although I always viewed the random loot from chests as a random factor with no real lore answer, sort of a "it does not matter so it might as well be anything" factor, but your point is very well made. I still think that no matter what they butchered this plot story wise by not explaining her, the cosmology behind her and making her look terrible. I also don't see why deadra can't change. They change plans, goals, forms and even fundamental beliefs in several cases. I think what they meant to say was something along the lines of "deadra can only be 1 thing, unlike the eadra that made the world," but even that goes back to the "badly told" part. I am pinning this comment as an "alternative" view :)
@@cotho. I agree they could've done a lot more storywise, and the facial jank is unfortunate 😩
I wont. Anything lore wise added by ESo, is not canon to Arena, Daggerfall, and up to Skyrim. Zenimax's "LOREMASTER" Wrote the following: " The Singleplayer games are just fanciful tales, we're telling the real history of Tamriel". No their really not. They do nothing but bastardize better written games that they'll never be able to match writing wise.
@@MLPDethDealr32 he never said that
ESO didn't retcon the Tiber theory to my knowledge. They simply stated (actually even showed it in the primordial vision given by the Serpent Constellation) that the province had truly been jungled in the past and that it was no longer the case. Lady Taneth in ESO speculates that the Towers may have an influence over reality in a given region depending on whoever controls it but she herself says she's not sure of the explanation. I'd say it has as much weight as the Tiber Theory.
So they Jyggalaged Meridia
If I had a nickel for every time a forgotten Daedric Prince was too dangerous to be left to their own devices I’d have 2 nickels, which isn’t a lot but it’s weird that it happened twice.
they could have just made an expansion around jygglag and be done with it
Wouldn't it just lead to him getting sealed again since canon demands he stay as Sheo til the shivering isles expansion.
I think the idea of her character is awesome; the comparison of shattered glass and the unraveling of events in seemingly random patterns is SUCH a cool comparison.
It just sucks that everything else is so… mid. She’s the daedric prince of paths, her whole domain is supposed to be the meddling and controlling of fate; so why is she also a character in all of the multiverses??? Isn’t she supposed to be in charge of that??
I guess it could be explained with the meddling of Hermaeus Mora and the other princes, that her erasure caused her to lose control over her domain.
I really like your idea of her being the prince of defiance; I think that would fill the holes relating to Akatosh, and it could make for some seriously interesting lore and storylines. It supports the idea of the other princes supporting her erasure, and it would make some really cool conflicts between all of them (especially Jyggalag & Sheo. Imagine that lol)
They could also really tie in some cool lore about Dragonbreaks in there, too. Like they’re the result of her meddling and caused Akatosh to step in?? It could be supporting lore for linear timeline errors, and another reason why the other princes are against her.
Ithelia, Daedric Prince of Defiance & Dragonbreaks?? Would have been SO much cooler than…. whatever this is.
Yeah this video just sums it up perfectly. They didn't think this one through when they came up with this storyline, plus Ithelia looks like a crackhead. Her design also reeks of "OC don't steal." It's like they did the Kirkbride psychedelic trip and threw every idea they had into one addon but they didn't piece everything together properly. The only thing missing from my Bingo card was mixing the Dwemer's disappearance into this addon. Anyways next TES is still probably going to be coming out in 5+ years and they drop bombs like this. I am not feeling hopeful for the future.
I dunno, WoW lore has gone bad for a long time, and it's still alive with xpacs pumped to this day. Maybe normies simply don't give a s**t to the lore and just want to play the game.
She is some ESO developer's OC
More like some ESO developer's 12 year old kid's OC who they added into the game.
100% guaranteed.
To make her they would need Bethesda's approval and the concept is good.
I had no idea Ithelia was supposed to be a Magne-ge but that would make her Meridia's sister in a way, Both Meridia and Ithelia were worshiped by the wild elves so they were princes at the same time. That would mean that Ithelia's own sister turned on her and they didn't even touch on that?
She's the oldest Star Orphan. Older than Meridia even
The womb tattoo makes me think she is just OC they really wanted in game. She could have worked if it was more CODA than MCU multiverse exploration.
So you mean that Almalexia is also an OC just because she has a belly tattoo?
(I am writing through Google translator, if something is wrong, it is not my fault)
The only way to fix this is to simply say that Sheogorath decided to have fun and sent “dreams” to some dremora, and then pretended to be Ithelia.
Due to the fact that this is an insoluble problem, the multiverse is impossible in the Elder Scrolls lore, because it simply contradicts the physics of the world.
If they don’t know about this, then they don’t know the lore of the game they are creating, and if they know and still want to push the multiverse simply because it is in Marvel and DC, then everything is even worse.
I'm afraid that with the next expansion things will get even worse.
15:00 - That's nothing new. Even in Daggerfall there were books from the future. One of the bigger lore masters on YT said a while back in a video that this was because of Hermaeus Mora. I don't remember which one said it, though.
it's based off of a misunderstanding of the lore. daedra are able to change, but they're not able to create, they only imitate the mundus.
This one understands it
What about Clavicus Vile? He made Barbas and umbra didn't he?
@@AxisChurchDevotee But those things are still copies of stuff that exist in Mundus. Barbas is a daedric copy of a dog, Umbra is a daedric copy of a sword (also in lore I think Umbra was created by a mortal witch, though it may also have been sheogorath in disguise)
Ithelia contradicting established lore is pretty spot on for her ability as the changer of fates. Nothing is established anymore because everything can change now. It's like her ability is to retcon anything. No wonder Mora hated her lol. I like her.
We got a new daedric prince but no one talks about out her because her story and writing sucks
17:46 I'd disagree, and say that it's the prime reason ESO (and TES since ~Oblivion) is bad writing, if not bad gameplay.... Simplifying, dumbing down, etc... is not something Tolkien did, and look how popular he is. Why shouldn't TES be the same? With 'deep lore' that more or less ensures the exclusivity of its fanbase and interest. Why is mainstream appeal desirable, as a fan? From a marketing perspective, sure, but that's never a good thing for an actual consumer, much less a fan, to care about when it comes to a creative property. TESlore has been increasingly ignored, and simplified/streamlined now for about 15 years. So, those who are into it now? are the 'nu-crowd'.... it's always going to be trite and shallow, perhaps it always was, though I don't think so. The saddest thing is the potential of the lore vs. its execution / apologists. Why thank someone whose actively made you dumber, chopped down your trees and then demanded payment?
TBF, I can get why. Its because "generic fantasy" sells more. IE generic European fantasy with knights and dragons and princesses, etc. Plus from a gameplay standpoint, I can also get it. Traversing through an open world jungle would be a pain in the ass, and make lower end PCs/Laptops and even older consoles lag.
eso does have an astounding ability to make even the most esoteric of lore feel mundane
Firstly gotta confess- never played ESO, likely never will because I'm too busy :( but I'm always interested in what new ideas come out (who really think we plays these games for years upon years just for the gameplay?) Also to preface nothing here is cannon if you don't like it ;)
It's so strange that they did a multiverse story within Elder Scrolls. Kalpa does not seem to be the exact same thing as multiverse. A multiverse is self contained (apart from those travelling between them) whilst Kalpas seem to string along from each other, both concurrently and consequently to each other- hence the Umaril's father emerging from a previous Kalpa, or how the Hist (and possibly Dwemer and Falmer, but that mostly head-theory/cannon( and no not because Dwemer were super advanced or anything)) arrived from another kalpa, or Lyg and that is let alone the time broken Dawn age where time looping back on itself is the sanest part of this time.
The universe already has the mechanics in place to do stories about traversing Kalpas, yet instead we get silly multi-universe that contradicts the ideas of Kalpa. Mortals can traverse Kalpas, but only lineally (They can jump down the rope to the next kalpa, but there is no indication whatsoever of side stepping time into different kalpas within the ES universe), this seems to be because every mortal being is bounded by time and therefore has no other way to travel it but to fall down.
Also I have to agree with you on her sphere, again this is what I can glance from the internet but it just seems all to covered already by other princes. Personally there are already too many daedric princes encompassing too many similar themes, Boethiah and Mephala, Vaermina and Namira etc so to add ever more similar princes feels kind of redundant and from an outsider feels more like a wooshy bit of marketing over "A NEW MYSTERIOUS DAEDRA"... eh but I'm probably just too dumb to understand or something.
A more inspired story with these concepts could include a dead Lovecraftian like entity from a dead kalpa, maybe the dead sea god of the elder scrolls, who's carapace was stolen by Mr H Mora and is left to drift the edges of Nirn until one is worthy of giving their body to him. IDK Could still make him entity of paths or whatever wishy washy thing they wanted, in fact a dead god from a dead kalpa might be more knowledgeable on dead paths, idk again.
Now give me 20,000₫ or your social credit number.
I’m surprised Todd Howard didn’t intervene to prevent this cringe, like he did when zenimax said they wanted to explore the disappearance of the dwemer
You know they had to get Bethesda's approval first for this? They are 100% in for the hippy god.
Daedra can't change! Molag as the king of dreughs - hold my beer 😅
Ithellia. Daedric Prince of self-insert fanfiction.
Nice, I was hoping you'd talk about this
I'm surprised that this "dlc" (and calling it that is generous of me) doesn't end with a handwritten note that says:
"Note: Ithelia died on the way back to his home planet"
she looks like a modern woman cosplaying as an OC anime character. there was no need for a completely new never before seen or mentioned antagonist with bs ad hoc asspull shoehorning when the other daedric princes could be fleshed out more. Bethesda can't stop taking Ls.
I mean in fairness meridia and noctornal also just look like women in cosplay... just one is making HEAVY use of double sided tape.
Alternate universes & the Multiverse have existed in TES for decades (including in ESO), but the way it's introduced in Gold Road makes no sense and contradicts everything (and I too was very excited for how they did Ithelia). The way Gold Road did it made it all feel so...mundane.
"Alternate universes & the Multiverse have existed in TES for decades", source needed.
Um. No there has never been a multiverse. TES lore has always been a singular timeline with no branching timelines besides dragonbreaks.
@@edgyebi1610 The Warp in the West & Dragon Breaks, the main story of Summerset (which mentions the Multiverse by name), the Psijic questline, multiplayer in Shadowkey is done via connecting with different parallel worlds via Shadow Magic, the Multiverse is also mentioned in Black Reach IIRC and the Introduction the the Lore of the Elder Scrolls Online.
@@hyperios4756 The Warp in the West & Dragon Breaks - neither are examples of Alternate universes or a Multiverse.
The multiplayer mechanic in Shadowkey - an obscure game available only on the Nokia N-Gage and N-Gage QD developed by Vir2L Studios
Summerset, Psijic questline, and other ESO examples - more ESO slop
So nothing from a mainline game huh? That's some weak evidence.
@@edgyebi1610 The Warp in the West involves alternate timelimes overlapping.
Shadowkey being obscure or on a phone game doesn't stop it from being canon; Azra Nightwielder's Shadow Magic is mentioned directly in Skyrim by Neloth.
What you or I think of ESO doesn't matter; it's still completely canon as said by both Zenimax and BGS.
The Warp of the West which I have already mentioned is from a mainline game (plus Arena's main story is saving the Emperor from an alternate dimension). The cosmology being repeatedly called 'the Multiverse' is literally the opposite of weak evidence.
you didn't think you were the only one -- she was the first -- starborn!
I was shocked by how terrible this writing was. I just finished all the quests about 10 minutes ago and... DUDE... THAT CHARACTER REEKS OF FANFICTION!
I was expecting something more respectful of the land of Varen, something that would clarify what happened to Clivia Tharn, provide insights into the leaders of the three alliances, and touch on other classic aspects of Colovian culture.
But dude... they used all their creativity on Shalidor's wife's scribing quests, giving all the "gold" of the personality to those animal-like creatures; and the "Scooby-Doo-like" quest (where we can't even think and choose the suspects, because the quest solves the mystery for us).
What do we get? A band of Wood Elves claiming Ayleid ancestry! IN COLOVIA!
The only good things about this DLC are the map, the items, and the gameplay in general. It's perfect for players who just skip the dialogues and go after the items, but it's a real eyesore for those who were expecting more from this promise.
Necrom wasn't perfect, but at least we got some Dunmer culture and Vaermina's passionate struggle to overcome Mora, Peryite followers, and Torvesad.
I was stoked for Ithelia too, and while it sucks to hear they were handled poorly here, I want to see what mods for Skyrim and ESVI do with them.
An MMO intro doesn't seem to be the best way to introduce a new Daedra, but I love the idea of the new daedra.
Wait a min….. she’s modeled after Shakira, hahahahaha
Why even try to make a weird multiverse that contradicts pre established lore? When the elder scrolls is already basically a multiverse?
There are essentially infinite realms of oblivion which are infinite in size, tes verse is much bigger than one would assume. Why try to make the scale even bigger when you already have beings such as "the amaranth" anu, lorkan, etc etc... Some of them quite literally omnipotent beings, like what purpose does this have? The scope of the elder scrolls is already massive even without this new multiverse thing
I also don't really like the storyline of "im gonna imprison myself on the off chance that something bad may happen" Like.... You're a daedric lord... Most of you don't give a damn about mortals, and for those that do it's usually just for their own amusement or narcissistic tendencies.
I just find it hard to believe that someone would willingly imprison themselves forever, especially a daedric lord.
To be fair, i haven't really plaid eso in the last few years, but of the few lore bits i gathered from it, i don't really like what im seeing.
You want to add multiple timelines and different multiverses? Ok, but the major gods should supersede this, there should only be 1 akatosh, 1 hermeus mora, 1 trinimac etc etc...
As far as i know there aren't multiple one above all for example, because he's literally the supreme god, daedras and aedras should have been treated the same way, because they are supreme beings who have control over certain aspects of reality.
It also causes a lot of problems because if she had multiple versions of herself and every god has multiple versions of themselves, then why didn't they interfere which each other already? Sure, she can manipulate fate, but if the multiverse is already established and has multiple versions of the same gods then im sure they would be able to interfere with each other even without her.
Or are they saying they she has literally the power to replicate multiple realities with omnipotent gods in them which would make her an absurdly powerful character beyond what's reasonable compared to other greater gods aside the very top like anu and the amaranth? Like are you serious eso? So now im supposed to believe that a daedric lord which are already practically omnipotent, now she's as powerful as anu? Or even worse the literal creator of the dream who all other gods and reality itself spawned from?
I have issues with both narrative and power scaling when it comes to her.
All of this would have been greatly lessened if only they didn't make it so different universes have different versions of the same gods, in my opinion that was THE major mistake.
I could accept multiple tribunals, or multiple lesser gods in general, but multiple daedras and aderas? NO. I don't have any particular problem with the multiverse thing itself, i have issues with how it was narrated.
Many paths is a fine concept. Multiversity already existed with Shadow magic. She "doesn't work" because she pretty much stole your Jygalag's spot as the biggest daedric threat.
Rest is Elder Scrolls fandom's nostalgia for their favorite prince.
Question: Why isn't Ithelia just Mnemo-Li? Dragon Breaks, Elder Scrolls, time manipulation, defiance of Akatosh, ties to the MC, it all fits well enough and could easily be expanded on into what we have now (or preferably something better). Why make her this White Star? It's redundant. Making her the Blue Star also helps this "multiverse" actually exist in pre-existing lore...By not being a multiverse, exactly.
13:05 That's a great idea. Also, already what Mehrunes Dagon is. Mankar Camoran chose well when ""defying" the Aedra and making a new realm. Ithelia is simply too redundant and any time the writers try to make her more unique it contradicts something, even if it's their own lore.
My pitch is to make her Mnemo-Li, and allow her to be a walking, talking Elder Scroll/Dragon Break. Time warps around her, and through her glass she can show these "alternate timelines" that are simultaneously not real, and real. We know that the future is fluid for the Elder Scrolls, but the past is stagnant. Why not allow Ithelia to show these fluid futures right out of the gate, but the threat is that she has the potential to render the past fluid as well, potentially undoing your own birth or something, and that's why you must stop her. This could explain the Cyrodil jungle for example. Talos got rid of it even in the past, but Ithelia can bring it back, a perfect example of her power without the need for full parallel universes.
Hi, I really enjoy your videos. Thank you for the vigilant vids. Watched a bunch more after finding that one. Now I eagerly await the next.
Keep it up my guy🔥
I'm just confused about the Magna Ge becoming a daedric prince thing. Not that it's not possible (since this is what Meridia is) but to my knowledge the difference between the two is basically a formality and becoming a daedric prince wouldn't really be an "upgrade".
Seriously, multiverse is the last thing this franchise needs. God knows Marvel went to shit after they introduced it.
I mean, Marvel always had a multiverse.
@@chrisdiokno5600 multiverse has never appeared in Marvel before the infinity saga. And to account for that in-universe, we got He Who Remains.
@@jonaszpawlacz756 I mean in the comics
@@chrisdiokno5600 oh, my bad, I meant the MCU.
@@jonaszpawlacz756 Nah I was talking Marvel overall
This seems like such a shame but I get what they were going for. If I were designing this, though, I would have probably avoided copy/pasting Meridia's origin and would have made it ao that all her alternative paths just suddenly end and become finite deminsions, almost like shards of possibly broken off from the whole mirrior rather than inserting a whole multiverse. At this point multiverses where "this is like ours except XYZ happened" are everywhere and really don't add much to existing stories beyond fan services and cheap jokes.
"draedra cant change" bruh compare the Daedric Princes in Skyrim to how they're shown in other games (or portrayed in lore) and Sheogorath + Meridia + Barnabas literally had character development. Admitedly it could just as easily had been a roll of the dice thing and they just woke up on the right side of bed that century (plus Sheo is *technically* a different guy)
IN THEORY i like the concept of new daedric princes, but i would have preferred if it was one the players just never met before bc they cared more for oblivion than nirn- because that'd expand the vastness of oblivion as a dimension and all that. But yeah this whole multiverse thing wasnt very well done
also on the jungle question at this point, this far along, i just decided that Tiber retroactively unjungled the place with his Royalty because its the coolest option tbh
Daedra are the literally the concept of change and non stasis, they're padomayic in nature. They will keep changing and molding until the dragon eats it's own tail
I have always considered the princes to be more like weather, yes weather ebb's and flows and changes everyday but for the most part it is predictable. The princes never stray far from their concepts, Uncle Sheo will always be crazy and Molag Bal will always be a c word, a thunder storm will always be a thunder storm no matter what part of the world it is at. This is what made Jyggalag so powerful he could put a tornado in a box and put it on his shelf all neat like because he was static and unchanging so strict in his concept.
@@deadsoul7409 I think it was more related to their nymics and how they are bound to certain roles in the universe - "Daedra are bound by their Nymics, and cannot change beyond their nature. As Daedra reconstitute exactly as according to their Nymic if they are destroyed, Nymics can be thought of as a pattern or formula that defines the being created when it manifests itself from the eternal chaos of Oblivion. Daedra fear the possibility of an enemy learning their Nymic, and guard them preciously"
I think it works, but to be honest, since she is a new Prince, everything is just words. The only person who really cares about her threat is Mora, who would have seen her immortal enemy, very much like Molag Baal and Meridia hate each others guts. All the Daedric Princes have been established in Lore and reinforced in other Elder Scrolls games. Other Princes Realms have themes that overlap, to me that's not big deal. Azura, Mora about Paths, Peryrite & Namira, Molag and Mehunes. Some share aspects of one another and it hasn't bothered most of the fandom. Ithelia, granting someones chance to live their alternate reality, would spite Mora, since he hates retcons and collects knowledge of what has been. Well if the past is always changing he probably wouldn't like that very much.
I think there is great potential for Ithelia to be a real threat if they keep establishing her in other games with Lore and minor quests. Ithelia is pretty much ESO's Scarlet Witch, a bit too uncanny though. Over all I think this story is a prime example of History is told by the Victors and Mora won.
This slop isn’t cannon right? It fundamentally can’t be
It is and approved by Bethesda. It's also a cool concept.
@@YOGI-kb9tg It’s only cool to people who aren’t actually fans. None of this works in the lore at all and forcing her in contradicts every bit of established lore up to this point for the sake of a Mary sue elf insert oc you’d find on deviantart
@roachdoggjr8399 except it does fit and talking about true fans grow up it's not Bethesda have contradicted themselfs and retconned there games to oblivion already and this was green lit by Bethesda as well. You can complain about the character and ESO all you want but her concept is cool and does fit into the established lore and ESO is canon.
@ then explain how
We need a new Concept for Gold road instead of a Prince try to get to Tamriel and raise Hell! Devs lets make a NEW Prince, Bugfesta answer WOW your are brilliant.
I don't play the game but I hoped we would get more magne ge lore similar to nine Coruscations, that was a cool text
So Ithelia is meant to be a mirror to Hermaeus Mora right? Shouldn't she resemble an eldric/cosmic horror entity like Nyarlathotep similar to how Mora is based on Yog-sothoth?
As someone who just plays the elder scrolls game I just pretend like ESO lore isn't canon, sadly this will probably only work until elder scrolls 6 where I have no doubt ESO will be mentioned in the lore.. 😢
Do ypu plan to makr a vidoe deep diving into maids 2 like the storys in sky divide
Yeh it's really lack luster, my 1st thought was wow she looks weird. The Scribing quest line has been better than the main story
Ithelia shmethelia
cope. she absolutely does work
bro just release the glenmoril mod review
2 Cotho videos in one week????? 🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥
What even is jygalag? Anui-el's cheap knock off? Greymarch is like a dark brother hood fanclub for anuiel.
Aka oversoul is far more crucial to Anui-el's the concept of order. Time & space. Aka and Lorkhan are the only inheritors of these concepts. Not jyg.
I am so so so sick of every fictional world being a multiverse. What's the appeal of the multiverse in fiction other than to ruin all sense of importance and scale? They're so overdone, and they don't improve stories.
It's a huge trend and I'm tired of it too
I find your comment funny because that's not a problem. That was what her powers were capable of but if you have forgotten. She has been dealt with and so no multiverse bullshit. Your getting annoyed at nothing really this is a prequel so it's obvious she was going to be taken out back like ole fella because they can't have lore that changes or contradicts the mainline games.
@@YOGI-kb9tg I'm not annoyed because of inconsistency in elder scrolls online's story. I'm annoyed by the ubiquity of the trope where writers add a multiverse to every fiction setting for no Doylist reason beyond the fact that everyone else is doing it with their settings. I'm just kind of tired of them. It's overdone, writing a good multiverse is as difficult as introducing time travel mechanics to a story, and much like accessible time travel, a multiverse doesn't serve the stories that a lot of these settings want to tell. And also: not just an elder scrolls problem. This is like a media in general problem where multiverses are becoming really oversaturated in the wake of Marvel's success.
@@Mr_Maiq_The_Liar yea but the multiverse already existed in a sense especially in kirkbrides lore but that's iffy.
I get you it's a overblown trope but I think it's not done bad here. She is defeated and we end the multiverse plot.
@YOGI-kb9tg the multiverse concept as far as I know is new in ESO, and a multiverse can't be closed. It's like time travel, sure the storyline about it is over but now you're in a setting that has a fundamentally different concept of causality.
The story fondationally shakes up the way causality works in the entire setting by introducing a multiverse then ends the story by trying to return to a status quo where the stories existence has zero consequences
doesn't that just sound like bad writing if the Best case scenario for future stories is that its either effectively or literally not canon even though it literally establishes a multiverse?
1 minute and I am early
Ithelia is a man Baby!
The Elder Scrolls lore is too big and a complete mess at this point
It was a mess before ESO. Bethesda made sure of that by ignoring there own lore for the past 2 mainline TES games