Great video! Most of the rot on the poles we have seen is starting at ground level to about 18 inches down. What we have done is to coat the poles with roofing tar but we go one step further. We wrap the pole with Ice and Water Shield roofing protection starting at about 6 inches above the ground down the pole the width of the wrap. It basically is a barrier from the ground to the pole and is a really cheap and great option. We actually looked at a pole barn we built 20 years back that was damaged in a storm and the poles we did with this method were still in new condition so I would expect them to last my lifetime and my kids lifetime.
That would be a similar principle to the Post Protectors (option #4) but we have found the Post Protectors to be very quick and easy to install while maintaining a full separation of wood from ground contact. They also make a grade board protector to keep the grade board from contacting the dirt. Thanks for the info!
Another thing to do is attach a couple 6”-8” pieces of scrap treated 2x6 to the bottom of the post to assist in holding against frost heave,Makes a big difference. Added insurance.
i toss a bag of sakrete in the bottom of the hole and stand the post on it and pack stone and dirt around it tight. been doing it that way for 30+ years. i have also coated the bottom of the post with roofing tar below grade but that adds to the cost and time.
I am on my second ploe barn type shop. And also apply 2 coats of roofing cement 3' up the post and a generous amount on the ends. Have also done this on a few other applications where I buried a treated 4X6 in the ground. I was curious if others do this. Nice to know. One other thing I do is drill 2 holes around the perimeter of the building through the post and insert rebar in these holes. and they are inbedded in the concrete when I pour the slab for the shop. The rebar goes all the way around the building in every post. Robert
Great video. I use cored block piers or charred and tarred in ground on a cement cookie. Do keep in mind masonry below grade can become water logged if it can't dry out. So soil conditions play a big factor in in choice of a foundation.
I live on the top of a hill, when I built my pole barn, excellent drainage. I followed the locals, and dug as deep as I could with a skid steer auger, poured some crushed stone at the base, and then filled in with drainable/compactible dirt fill. I have had zero movement, no rot, no issues so far. (about a decade and a half) my poles were 4 thicknesses of .40 PT 2x6's, stainless nails below ground, steel nails above 4" up. I staggered the PT with KD above ground, 4 different lengths, Prior to applying shiplap pine vertical I lag bolted the posts every 2' (in addition to nails.
That's great that you have such good drainage! I probably would recommend using concrete at the base instead of crushed stone, but it sounds like it is working for you, so that is good! Unfortunately, a lot of our owners have much damper ground, so we have to take more measures to prevent rot, but sounds like you thought your process through!
Mine was 3 foot galvanized I beam, cutting 6 inches of the web out (leaves you 5.5 inches ID) weld that plate for the pole to set on, drill your holes. The I beams are the ones used in most states driven in the ground for guard rails. (6 foot is typically the length).
Planning on building a pole shed for my tractor and I would go with either of the 2 options that don't involve thee post being below grade. Thanks for the video.
I've only used #3... I use 3" screws drilled in half way at various levels around the base of the 4x4. The screws seal in the cement for uplift protection. Glad I ran across your video....
Thanks for putting this all in one place! I really like the idea of the plastic sleeve, but what keeps water from collecting between the sleeve and post? We have really wet ground here.
You can leave the sleeves solid so that no water would get in, but honestly, water itself doesn't rot the post, you also need bacteria and warmth, which is why most posts fail right at ground level with the combo of those things. If you have a high water table and are worried, the concrete Perma-Columns are a great option as well.
I used the sleeves. There are holes that the directions have you drill for drainage (optional) . You set the sleeved post in the hole and on your doughnut, fill with gravel past the drilled Holes so water drains out the bottom, then pour concrete.
@@TheRainHarvester I'm not aware of a metal pole option right now for Post Frame buildings. The Perma-Column is concrete below grade with a 1/4" steel plate bracket that gets bolted through to the wood post above grade and has a longer lifespan than even a concrete basement wall. Also, we never recommend using 4x4 posts for a building, we stick with 6x6 and larger as needed for wider spans. Occasionally we use a 4x6 post for an entry door framing, but for wall supports, 6x6 laminated columns are the way to go.
Especially if the stirrup has a 1" to 2" raise above floor level which stops moisture from rotting out the base of the pole., the stirrup footings I use dont have reo any more they have an extended shaft anywhere from 4" up to 18", 1 " to 2" pipe with a foot at the base and a 1/2" x 3" x 5" flat plate, you have to saw a groove at the base of the post and bolt the two together, this is all done to stop rot from water.
I have used a technique where I take an "I" beam which goes into the concrete (with mud hooks) and sticks up about 4' above grade. I drill about 4 holes through the web and then I have the ability to through-bolt wood uprights to the top of the pole barn. In this way there is a firm foundation and no wood touches the dirt. All that is needed is to ensure that the "I" beam is level (done while the concrete is wet).
What keeps the I beam from rusting out where it's imbedded in the concrete? Sounds like an inside out lally column, which are known to rust at the bottom where moisture collects. Concrete never dries out completely
I've been thinking about this issue for some time, wanting to get the best residential post frame solution for the cost. The components necessary for rot are food source, oxygen, moisture, and temperature. Rot occurs in untreated posts from +2/-12 inches relative to grade, because this is where the combination of all factors is present. If you apply a plastic sleeve, it seems important to drill a small hole in the bottom so that accumulated water can escape. Also if you want uplift protection you need drill bolts at multiple sites through the sleeve so that it adheres to the post. At which point there are two ways near the base of the post for water to (over the years) enter/exit. Because the sleeve is not airtight: warm, oxygen-rich air from the surface can make its way down. So while you are separating the post from soil, the conditions may be viable for rot not only near the surface but throughout the length of the buried post. Would it therefore make sense to air-seal around the top of the post-protector to prevent surface-level air from reaching the bottom of the post?
With the Post Protector sleeves, you have the option to drill weep holes at the bottom or leave it solid. I do know some people like to silicone the top of those sleeves, but with the multi-year tests they have run on those, I don't think you would have any rot issues, silcone or not. Especially seeing as they are encased inside a sealed wall. Thanks for your thoughts!
@@confidentlocal8600 A thought process there might be - the weep hole is on the underside of the sleeve, and the sleeve is surrounded by concrete that is resting on a layer of a few inches of gravel. The concrete may have a "resting humidity" but as it becomes saturated the excess water drains down to the gravel due to gravity. Some moisture to the wood is doable, but if there was some unforeseeable process that caused water to accumulate around the bottom of the sleeve, it might lead to failure more quickly if there was no ability to drain.
Coat poles with coppertox up to two feet (termite control); Coat end grain with tar (moisture control); Attach pole to a galvalume support on concrete footings 6in above grade. Southern old school method lasts 50 years.
Thanks for the ideas! I think you would save a lot of time with the perma-column option which keeps your wood 16" above grade and saves you all those steps if possible.
Would have been good to also mention the massive difference in lateral strength between the first 3 compared to the last three. More "structural" members are required to prevent "racking" if the pole/post is split between above/below grade. A local contractor lost an entire 60x80 building using the first method during construction because they framed the building, and installed the metal roofing before doing anything with the wall "girts" and sheathing/metal. A brief gust of wind grabbed the open roof and the entire building "racked" and collapsed in the one direction. Each post failed in some fashion at the anchors and base of the post. some split the post, some pulled the anchor loose from the concrete... It changed my sequence of construction when building...
Correct, the lateral strength for split-units like Perma-Columns is all in how well it is anchored to the post. Throwing some screws in it won't work, it has to be structural bolted. Having a building rack is a scary thing regardless of the foundation and the best way to avoid that is get the metal on quickly and make sure the temp/permanent bracing is installed correctly. Definitely something to watch out for!
Our builder mentioned this very thing and what they do to create more lateral strength in the posts is stack four treated 2x6's to make the poles instead of a single post then the run carriage bolts through each of them along the length. It has held up extremely well in some of the gale force winds we get up here in the Rockies.
The chain / cable cross bracing needs to be in place and maintained until all of the lateral sheathing or metal is up. Sounds like they didn't have it all in place.
Here in Minnesota I'm building a 42x56. I believe I'll be coating the posts with roofing tar, and adding rain gutters to keep most of the rain away from the building.
That's an old school way of keeping the soil from contacting the post. Gutters are always nice to keep water away from the building. Good luck with your project!
Will moisture collect in the Post Protector sleeves? I hear some people drill a hole in the bottom, but it seems that would just allow water and dirt up into the sleeve. Maybe the post being damp below grade inside the sleeve is okay since the treatment can't leave the wood. I'm building in a low-lying area where the clay soil can be seasonally boggy.
There are optional weep holes that you can drill in the post protector sleeve, it all depends on your soil type. But that far down, there isn't enough oxygen to rot the post like the top 12" at grade. And with a small weep hole, you aren't going to get a lot of intrusion. Good question!
Should have also shown the dry set version along side option 1, or as a stand alone since it is useful for footing wall type foundations for rodent prone areas or a pole barn with crawl space and wood flooring.
Because of soil conditions in my area which include boulders, drilled footings would have been expensive . I went with a poured slab with a thickened edge that with brackets bolted to it and the posts. Made for a perfectly squared and level building and all wood above ground.
Is this an area where the ground freezes? I plan on building a pole barn in Vermont but I think this too much ledge where I want to put it. So I was thinking slab-on-grade but I'm not sure if the cement will crack in time
@@MrSprintcat just use 1½" styrofoam under the concrete. You will have no frost heave, therefore very minimal cracking. Also use a vibrator and vibrate the whole floor. I usually vibrate about every 6" in line
From what we've learned, the perma-columns with preformed concrete footings are an option for hurricane areas. But we don't currently build in any states that experience hurricanes, so it's not our area of expertise. We would definitely recommend talking to a post-frame company from a hurricane-prone area for their recommendations! The National Frame Building Association has a great resource for finding post frame builders in your area! www.nfba.org/aws/NFBA/pt/sp/directory
Question: Can you combine building a pole barn construction but pier & beam base? I have researched without success. We want to build a 24x24 2 story cabin. The best property view would be about 3’ off the ground to clear the view from a nearby property fence. Hope this makes sense. Thank you!
Absolutely, as long as your piers are rated for the weight/shear...etc., you could bracket off the Sturdi-Wall bracket showed in this video and build from that.
The way I like to do it is casting a 1/2" J-bolt into the concrete, with an cross of 1/4"x10" steel wired to the base(usually some old spiral nails in that size), as further uplift protection. I then bolt a Simpson ABA bracket to the top, and nail the treated 4x4 post to that. I haven't been doing it long enough to know if the zinc electroplating on the Simpson brackets will have rust issues being in contact with the PT wood, but I've found no similar bracket sold in a hot dip finish.
Interesting to see the different options. Pole barns are much less expensive and quicker to build than stick built but I would never trust wood in the ground for a permanent structure.
Most of the buildings we build these days have some form of separation of wood contact to ground such as Perma-Column or Post Protectors. Much better option than the traditional treated post-in-ground method.
What about setting it on paver, then 30% dirt, 40% concrete, then finishing off with 30% dirt. This should allow any moisture to pass all the way though the concrete when/if the post shrinks
I have a couple questions. On the third example, can the concrete be poured with an above ground casing so the concrete is above where water could get in? Wouldnt that prevent any rot at all? Also, in the last example, does it need rebarb in the base of it? And then, is it just back filled with same dirt or does it need to be something else added in?
The third option is not one we would recommend, but if you have to use that for code reasons or you just really want to, I would make sure that concrete comes up and is sealed as best as possible to prevent bacteria/moisture from working it's way between the post and concrete. That is the flaw in that design, the concrete tends to trap moisture and bacteria against the post causing rot. On the final example, that doesn't need rebar, it can be poured at the width of the hole and 10-12" deep for a solid footing on most barns. And yes, as long as the soil is good draining type, it can be used to backfill around the post, which will allow water to drain away from the post rather than trapping it. Good questions!
We have heard of many different liquid applied methods that people have tried, but the best option would be to have a solid separation from the soil like Post Protectors or Concrete Perma-Column methods. Rubber coating may help, but if moisture and rot work it's way through, it could actually speed up the decay by "trapping" moisture in the post.
I am building a post frame using wet set brackets, but have noticed a problem with this method. Water will pool atop the concrete right at the joint between the concrete and the bracket if there is no flashing to shed the water over the top of the concrete. I have yet to see anyone on TH-cam address this. The 1/4" steel brackets will rust away faster than a pole would rot. I'll be making flashing for mine, and will show it on my channel.
That is an interesting thought! Those brackets are pretty thick steel and I have seen some people "float them up so that only the bottom would be possibly touched by the concrete and slope it away and I have also seen people bury those brackets partially into the poured floor. Your best bet to install them correctly would be to contact Perma-Column themselves and see what they recommend. Would be interested to see your flashing solution. Thanks for stopping by!
@@christopherhaak9824 The brackets are not inside the structure. They are on top of the concrete pads which are clearly visible from the exterior, and powder coating does not make them impervious to water. Several had rust on them from sitting outside a few weeks.
@@PlanetMojo the brackets are interior to the external purlins and outer surface skin. So, they are inside the structure unless you build without walls. The brackets don't rust, the rebar connections might, they aren't powder coated.
@@christopherhaak9824 That is incorrect. They are directly exposed to the elements, and can be seen from the outside of the building. Water goes down the side of the building to the top of the piers and goes directly onto the tops of the piers and back to the brackets. Powder coating will deter rust for awhile, but it is not rustproofing. I can make a video that shows it clearly if you like?
For building green/cheap in climate zone 3 (mixed humid), how would you detail the floor/wall connection using option 4? Wet set brackets would involve thermal bridging so I would prefer to avoid that.
Hello there! Sorry I didn't see your comment sooner! If you wanted to use Post Protector sleeves, you can build that exactly the same way as a traditional post frame building with grade board set right through the sleeve and concrete floor poured up to grade board and around the post/sleeve. Post Protector also offers a product that covers the grade board and keeps it from touching soil, to extend the life of the grade board. Hope that answers your question!
What would you suggest for a really tiny pole barn? I'm making a lean-to shed thats going to be about 8x12. I want to build it like a pole barn, so I can add a cement slab later. It'll be used as a garden shed (garden and lawn tools, lawn mowers, etc)
Good question. If your budget allows, I would definitely suggest going with one of the Perma-Column options as they are permanent and will never have an issue with rot in the future. But since it is a garden shed, if you don't want to spend as much, you can always go with the Post Protector sleeve or a well treated post. It all depends on how permanent you want to make the building and how good your ground drainage is in your yard. If it is all sand and drains super well, you can get by with a treated post for a garden shed just fine.
@UCEeRl9TZVCiUXgYUXNyMoHA Deck post brackets may/may not work, I would check with the manufacturer to see if they are designed to hold that load laterally, but I wouldn't see why you couldn't find a bracket that works. You don't need to use treated 4x4 if they will never make water/ground contact, but if they are close and may have that in contact, I would for precaution.
on 2,4,5 are you just filling in with fill dirt? Wish you would have mentioned that however it seems from the images you are filling in with dirt? Do you have a link where to get the metal sleeve on number 2 or the brand name? I appreciate this video i was about to do this wrong my thoughts before watching this video was to do what number 3 showed. I thought for sure putting it on a solid concrete foundation that was about 4 inches solid than placing the post on top and filling it with about 2 ft of concrete was the best idea but am surprised it's not according to this video
Yes, a pier system or screw-pier system would be neat, but nobody has developed it to the point of great usability yet for post frame buildings. They do have some great options for porches/decks though!
I did a chicken coup with trampoline poles fitted into hammer-drilled holes. Now I'm wondering if i could do a shed foundation using a pole every 2 or 3 feet on a grid. Maybe a 1.5' deep into limestone/clay central Texas.
Have Existing Pull Barn (built mid 1990's - I believe 1997 based on permits) with 10 foot single sliding door. Pole Barn is a 40X40. I would like to add an additional sliding door (same size) directly opposite this door. This will aid in pulling in and pulling out trailers, popup campers, etc. Not to mention provide good cross ventilation. I believe, from looking things over, one 4X6 structure pole will be removed and a new one slid over like 2 feet. A like cross board (from memory 2X12) put in place overhead etc (Similar to other door). The question is I have a EarthQuake post hole Digger (2 person) that can dig a 10 inch hole about 50 inches. I also have a 8 inch auger bit similar size. Is that wide and deep enough (8 or 10inch) or should I rent larger equipment for this one hole dig? I was planning on a concrete around pole approach for this single pole. I am not certain if they make smaller pads then 14 inch. (What I see at local hardware store).
Our standard approach would be to use a 6x6 post instead of 4x6 and auger that hole 18" wide and 4' deep (for our local frost levels in Indiana) I also would suggest you pack around that with drainable gravel rather than concrete to keep the pole from rotting, but if you use concrete, be careful to slope it away and seal up the top to keep water/dirt from making it into there. Or get a Post Protector sleeve on that post prior to pouring concrete around it. Best of luck!
@@MilmarBuildings - Only my corners are 6X6 in the building. The current sliding door is utilizing only 4X6s and cross 2 X12's. This pole barn was a kit. The to be removed post is not a tall post (~12 ft total - 4 below grade plus 8ft above) but I was going to get one to tie to the end roof truss top (~20ft including below grade). We probably have similar soils as Fort Wayne is about 50-60 miles to the west of me. Soil is Dark Heavy Clay. The soil is supposed to be some of the worse in the nation to dig I am told by the farmers all around me. Pardon my ignorance. wouldn't the large hole (18") allow the pole to possible move more? Is that desired? Also would a 4X6 then suggest typically a smaller hole? If 18" is needed I probably just do a couple side by side holes with the 8 inch auger and the post hole digger and just dig out the opening difference by hand, if its necessary. I can do stone but I had concern about stability. Thanks for the suggestions!
@@cmgray74 I hear you. Typically the larger hole is needed for a larger footer and to pack enough drainable soil/gravel around the post, but in your case, if it is not as much a load bearing post, you may be able to get away with a smaller hole, my only concern would be that if you can't get a large enough footer under the post, it may tend to sink if it doesn't have a good place to rest.
In an attempt to cob job/add protection to a wood pole... Wondering if a person could coat a pole in that liquid plastic stuff that you put on concrete backer board before tiling in a shower? Probably not adhere?
I would probably stick with solutions that are specifically built for a post frame building to make sure it worked long term. Shower coating isn't designed for being below grade.
I know someone who is building a 60x42 foot shop. The site is fairly far north in the Canadian Prairies, where buried water and sewer lines are typically put at a minimum depth of 8 feet to keep them from freezing. The engineering drawings for this shop indicate 18-inch concrete piles 8 feet long with 4 ply 2x8 laminated pressure treated columns set 6 feet into the concrete (method 3 in the video). The builder told the owner to just auger the holes to 8 feet, tamp 2 feet of 3/4-inch crushed gravel into the bottom of the hole, place the post on top of that and then pack 3/4-inch crushed gravel around the post to fill the rest of the auger hole. The shell of the building has now been built according to the builder's instructions. I'd be interested to hear if Milmar or anyone else might have any comments on setting posts in gravel like what they have done in this case. The site is at the top of a hill where there is good drainage and where the water table in a nearby water well is 65 feet below grade so I am expecting that the posts will be in fairly dry ground.
That is an interesting method. I am guessing that the large depth of the base gavel and it being tamped tight could replicate concrete base, but I am not sure why you wouldn't just pour wet concrete for the footer to make sure? Not seeing how tamping gravel that deep in the ground would be easier than pouring concrete, but then again, we build in the Midwest, not the Canadian Prairies. I would always stick with local building code for permit sake. Gravel around posts is not a bad plan, it is clean, compactible and allows good drainage while locking in the post.
@@MilmarBuildings I’m north of the 55th° That means 8 feet deep. I have lots of sections of 14 inch diameter 1/8” wall steel pipe and an auger, The soil is mainly clay 1-2% river rock (500’ above a lake 1/4 mile away.) With straight gravel I’m debating whether that would be an ideal drainage or a disaster looking for a place to happen. Here screw piles are also permitted per code. but that’s high-tech for resistance torque. Which I can’t replicate with my backhoe auger set up. (With my 100 hp pump and motor it would be too easy to snap the screw piles clean off) And to get the right people would be 5 to $8,000 bill added to that build. I believe # 1 is my best choice. .317 yd^3 concrete per is cheap. How many you figure per side?.. @15 ft centres x10 piles.. it be 3yards+ or ~$550. (+?) For 20’x60’
@@FFLFFS Wow, that is intense depth! And yes, the full concrete poured piers are nice as long as you can drill that deep in your soil type. Number of piers for us would be based on number of support posts, and in our area, that is 8' on center. If you are in a higher snow load, it may be 8' or even 6' or 4', so check your local codes, but I wouldn't go any wider than 8' on center for sure.
Good question! We never use round posts as they are much harder to get the connections we want for a good post frame building. Your best bet is to find a way to protect the post from rotting by coating it possibly, but round posts and tar coating is pretty old school. If you have the option, go with treated square lumber.
Is it ok to pour concrete around the post protector sleeve? ... So, you'd have a first pour of concrete for the footing at the bottom, 6 inches maybe, then place the post, then pour around the post maybe just a couple of feet up. Would that be more secure than just having dirt around it?
You could do that and the sleeve will keep the concrete from touching the post or trapping sediment, but if you want the ability for the weep holes on the sleeve to work, you would have to leave a space near the bottom to allow water to escape, possibly with a layer of open grade gravel.
We usually wouldn't recommend that as dirt and water could still potentially work it's way through and degrade that vinyl over time. More peace of mind with using a product that is built for the long run. 👍
If one chooses to use #4 and sleeve the post, is compacting soil the best option? Or could one use concrete, as in #3 since the post is now protected from debris and water getting in by the sleeve? If one is using the sleeve, which fill would be stronger or more permit friendly (obviously that would depend on location, but in general)?
It depends on your ground, but typically we fill back in with the same dirt/clay that was dug out as that has plenty of compaction. Concrete wouldn't hurt, but would be more expensive/time-consuming. That being said, if you want to pour concrete around a wood post, I would definitely suggest going with a sleeve option to keep the wood separate from any bacteria that could work in there over time.
I'm building a small lumber storage building with cantilevered roof & 1 row of poles I have 5) 12' 6x6 white cedar posts I'm thinking about wrapping the bottoms with "Grace" / ice & water type roofing membrane, my only fear is will this method seal the posts too well and cause dry rot or a similar type problem.
I have heard of people wrapping posts with various materials. The biggest danger on that is that when water works it way through the top or sides, the wrap can effectively "trap" the water next to the post and cause it to decay even faster. If you were very careful it might work, but I would probably leave the roofing materials on the roof and stick with something designed for in-ground use if possible.
In option 4, instead of the plastic sleeve can i paint on the treated 4x4 with like a tar or something that bonds to it as it cures creating that barrier between soil and wood? I dont know if theres a product out there that is specifically used for this
You could, but having a permanent, non-permeable heavy duty HDPE sleeve is going to do the job better than a coating that may wear away with time or allow bacteria to eat it's way through. We always recommend going with the safer method and Post Protector offers a 4x4 sleeve as well from Home Depot!
We try to keep it simple, but also up to code. You have to have a concrete pad at the base to keep the post (and building) from settling downward. Having rock or sand around is great for drainage though.
I'm looking at doing option #3 for a cheap style pole barn (24x12) that I want to use a a garage/workshop with a dirt floor for maybe 2-4 years. Humidity is under 30% year round with only 4 inches of rain a year. Any reasons to spend more going for option 1 or 2?
If you are looking for cost efficiency, I would go with option 4. You can buy Post Protectors through Home Depot and surrounding a treated wood post with concrete like option 3 is usually not a great plan for longevity. We almost exclusively use option 2 and 4 currrently, and only use option 5 when someone is building a barn that they don't care if the foundation is fully intact in 40-50 years.
I've put the posts in square steel tube. And bolt it 2' inside the tube. The posts has 2 L brackets to site the posts to height you need or want. But fill the tube to with gravel to the height want this will help with water and weights on the roof for different type of weather. Most people dont do this because of the cost and time . Even drilling the holes
Good video I'm planning a log pavilion,going to use pine logs ,about 10 to 12 inch in diameter,any suggestions on how to place the logs on the concrete footer, pavilion will be 20'x20' gravel base and stone pavers ,reason will cost way too much to pour concrete and cannot get to job site with a mixer truck , thanks
That's a good question, I would definitely use some form of concrete footer if you can, there are pre-formed footer pads you can buy to set those into the ground. Best bet is to ask a local builder in your area to make sure it meets code and will last.
I'm trying a rammed car tire stack with rebar. The post sits on the first rammed tire that clears the ground surface and a further two tires keep the post from moving. Tires are rammed with a mix of stones and sand using a pneumatic rammer. The rebars keep the stack together. Its cheap and super strong and no need for forms. Negative is a raised floor height but floor can sit on the tires.
That's an interesting approach. I can't quite visualize it, but the key ingredients to a post frame foundation is getting the base of the post (or pier) below the frost line to avoid heaving and protecting the wood from getting eaten by bacteria. Best of luck with your project!
Not at this time, but any time you are dealing with less than perfect sandy conditions, we would recommend going with either Post Protectors or Perma-Columns to keep the post from touching the soil. Or even with sand, it just brings peace of mind about your foundation.
Good question! We don't use round log posts, so I wouldn't be the best authority on that, but I would think that adding a layer of waterproofing to the posts and bring that up to above grade line couldn't hurt, though I don't know how long it would prevent rot beyond the standard treating that the post has. You may want to talk to a fence company as they typically work more with the round fence posts and may have better insight on that!
ZACH • ...19 years ago I put in a PT fence. I Double-Coated 4x4” posts with roofing tar up to 6”-8” above grade. No concrete at all just gravel & a flat stone at bottom. Every one of my 32 posts are very sturdy today with no signs of rot.
That is a great question! Probably depends on depth of placement, footer, soil type...etc., but flooding would definitely be better to have a no-wood-to-ground contact for minor flooding and high water tables. Earthquakes are a whole different ballgame. Thankfully, in our building area in the Midwest, we have very few (and very small) earthquakes compared to the West Coast and other areas of the world.
Cedar is quite expensive, especially now, so we typically reserve that for porch post upgrades that will be visible after construction. For an upgraded foundation, Perma-Columns or Post Protector sleeves with laminated columns makes more sense.
Correct, that is another great option and a variation on the Perma-Column Wet-Set bracket shown as option 1. Same bracket made by them, but instead of a wet-set rebar, you can mount that with bolts to a standard foundation wall that is already cured. We have used that method on occasion.
The best option is a 8" sonotube with a big base of 24" at the bottom with 3 bended steel rod in it and on the top sturdy wall braket! The concrete end about a feet and a half from the ground.
That would be the most expensive by far. Its no trick to over-build something. The real trick is to not over-build and not under-build. That way you don't waste materials and money.
If my costumer can't pay me to do it the best way, I pass away! When I build something, I want to see what we've build it straight for multiple decade.
Is there any long term information on post life with the post protector sleeves? I'm building a post frame house soon and trying to decide exactly which way to go. I want it to last well over 100 years
Your best bet would be to contact the manufacturer directly on that and I am sure they could help you with specifics. I do recall that they are made to last well over 250 years without breaking down, so that is very good!
No, typically we back-fill with the native base or gravel around those. While you could pour concrete, it isn't necessary. It is more important to get a solid concrete base UNDER the post so that you don't have any settling and the built in uplift measures on the Post Protector keep that from shifting upwards. Side to side movement isn't a problem once it is back-filled and framed in.
perma-columns ALL THE WAY! keeps the wood completely out of the dirt. easy to set, very easy to replace the post if it gets damaged. the posts DONT have to be treated ( cheaper ) AND the way the columns are built by using 3 boards nailed and glued together are way stronger than 1 single post. its a no-brainer if you want the building to LAST! we put up a 40x80 barn and LOVE them!
Yes, some builders use a drilled hole for that, or a partial tube at the top if the top of the hole is collapsing. You can also place those into poured footer walls that are in forms.
It is possible, though not easy. Sometimes, if the building is in bad enough shape, it is actually cheaper to demo the whole thing and build new, but that all depends on condition of the steel and posts together.
That is a similar option to Post Protector sleeves, there are several sleeve/wrap options out there, we like the Post Protector sleeve option and have added their grade board sleeve as well now!
Yes, rock is good for drainage, just make sure you have concrete directly underneath the post to keep it from settling in the ground. Rock around the base and opening the optional weep holes on the Post Protector should keep that dry as long as you have decent drainage/water table.
Hey Anthony, that is a great question! I am not sure about Florida engineering as that is totally different soil and wind loads (and a lot less snow loads :) I would contact your local building department, or an experienced builder or engineer that is familiar with code and loading for your area to answer that for you, but I'm sure you could use the Wet-set brackets for a good waterproof solution, I just don't know what size you would have to make your piers for your soil type.
@@MilmarBuildings would there be any advantages or disadvantages with these pertaining to the sideways force? for example would the wet sets sway more or less than lets say a pole that is has some of its mass set inside concrete and burried?
@@MadMan_3353 I would think with a larger pier on the wet-set you would have less movement, both side to side and upwards provided it was properly sized.
Great question! The first two options won't shrink or expand as they are full concrete bases. The 4th option (Post Protector) doesn't matter if it leaves gaps as it still won't' come in contact with the soil (aka wood eating microbes) The final option won't matter if it shrinks or expands because it is surrounded by drainable fill that water will run away from. The danger of the third option is that the concrete around the post creates a "well" that holds dirt and water against the post if not installed correctly. Just a heads up for folks planning on using that method, you have to watch for rot issues.
Typically we would use an 18" auger for that hole and fill it with concrete. In lower Michigan for typical poles, they sometimes require 24", but with a solid concrete pier like that, for most buildings, 18" would sufficient.
You could probably get that info direct from them at www.postprotector.com/contact-us/# They claim it is an eco-friendly prodcut, not sure on the materials used. Regardless, it is a good product to use.
@Mr. Cool Two types of people.. People who care about the world that they live in rather than just what's best for their own selfish interests. The other is taxpayers in general.. HDPE is a relatively easy plastic to recycle and if there is a market for products made from it, the value of it goes up. This in turn, makes it more cost effective to process here in the US which not only creates jobs, but reduces the amount of waste dumped in a landfill. Reducing the waste dumped in a landfill increases the life of the landfill which results in a long-term lower cost for taxpayers. So, why don't you care?
@@MilmarBuildings I looked on their site and didn't see anything about it other than that eco-friendly tag. But what does "eco-friendly" actually mean? I did not contact them but it's a good idea.
@@MilmarBuildings My email: Hello. I recently watched a video where your HDPE post protector sleeves were mentioned and I am curious if those sleeves are made of raw HDPE or is it recycled? We seem to be swimming in HDPE in our waste stream and having a market for its reuse is one of the steps in reducing the amount of HDPE to keep our heads above water in our throw-away society as well as creating jobs in the US. Thank you for taking a moment to answer my simple question.
Not sure on the loan requirements, but it is always a good idea to separate wood from ground contact with one method or another. Good luck with your project!
What I have seen in the past was , the concrete footings, pt post , and paced screenings, just as is done on a telephone pole , does this deserve consideration, as it wasn’t one of your options. I’m older and that’s the way we did it thirty ,fourty years ago.
While we don't typically recommend this method since it may not hold up in a lot of soil conditions/environments, that is another method that may work for some! We don't use it for our builds, simply because it doesn't typically last as long as the ways we've covered in this video. It was standard practice on larger telephone poles, when those were used for pole barns, but not as fitting for the 6x6 posts that we use now.
I am a few weeks away from building a pole barn house/garage. What do you think about using a gravel base, Post Protectors, and than filled around with concrete? Better uplift resistance than just Post Protectors.
If you have the post protector to separate the concrete from the post, that would definitely be a good plan! I would recommend putting some form of footing underneath the post in the form of a round pre-fromed pad or pour concrete 10" thick in the bottom of the holes and let it dry before setting your posts. Another option for uplift protection is to attach a wood block horizontally to each post towards the base of the post to keep it from pulling up. Best of luck with your project!
@@MilmarBuildings . Wouldn't attaching the wood block to the base of the pole open up holes for water to get in our is that ok since it's at the bottom like that?
@@manfrummt It could, but in addition to it being far enough below grade to not have the oxygen to rot, you can seal those holes from the wood blocks by dabbing some sealant on before bolting in the block and you also have the option to open weep holes at the bottom of the post protector to allow any water that gets inside to drain out.
I got talked into doing the pole barn building method once on a 30 x 40 shop. Never again. I dont see the benefit unless it's just an open 3 sided shed or something. It turned into a hassle. You still need to purchase about the same number of 2 x 6 studs and lumber, but now you have wood posts in the ground. My upcoming build and all future builds will be a slab and walls built like a house. Easier to frame up and insulate, everything fits and costs about the same.
I hear you on that and I have encouraged people to build traditional stick-built in certain cases, it all depends on what your plans are. That being said, three of these methods eliminate ground to wood contact and Perma-Column offers a dry-set bracket that you can build off of a traditional poured footer or basement wall as well. It's always good to do your research and figure out what works best with both price and building process before committing to it. There are many different way to get the job done! Best of luck with your upcoming build!
Generally adding a second floor to a typical post frame building doesn't change these foundations. Sometimes you need bigger footer pad underneath the post, but generally that is all, if anything. You simply tie your floor joist system directly into your posts and you are good to go!
Cost is actually similar for us as the first option is cheaper in materials, but more costly in labor to install and the second is quicker to install, but costs more for the materials, but if you were self-installing, I would think the Wet-Set bracket would probably be a bit cheaper. On life expectancy, again, they would be about the same as they both are solid concrete foundations and should last longer than pretty much any other component of the building.
Not quite sure what you are referring to on that, but I would love to see your suggestion for the product from Simpson. I can assure you that Perma-Column is more than enough strength on a post frame building and it has been tested quite a bit.
@@MilmarBuildings I'm sure they are strong for gravity loads. But laterally pole barns are relying on a cantilevered columns that transfers lateral loads to the foundation by a fixed connection at the base (typically wood posts embedded into concrete). While your concrete itself is just fine, those two connections are just bolting the wood post to the base plate with two small bolts - there is no fixity in that connection - therefore the lateral load doesn't get into the foundation. So unless you have bracing above in the structure you wouldn't have a lateral force resisting system in place. The simpson product is new but it's called a MPBZ post base.
@@tonystenlund2899 I actually have looked into the MPBZ brackets some, and while they seem very suited to a free-standing pergola or porch structure, the Perma-Column is better for a post frame building that is braced not only by the lumber framework, but mostly by the metal skin itself with literally thousands of screw connections which "locks" a post frame building into place very strongly. Also, I don't know if you have had hands-on experience with the Perma-Column posts, but they have embeded rebar down into that 60" concrete column and the base is very thick metal that cups around the base of the post and is through-bolted, so having any twisting is all but impossible once it is installed. I love seeing new products though and if they work better, I am all ears!
@@MilmarBuildings thin metal doesn't have diagram capacity that's why PEMB's have steel cables. I am familiar with the perma columns - I'm not questioning its capacity. It's the connection of the wood to the plate that I'm questioning. Thanks for the replies and good luck.
Just wondering when pouring your slab can you also build a 2-3 foot cement wall around the perimeter of the pole barn. So instead of setting you walls on the slab it would be set on top of the small wall?
Absolutely, you can pour a traditional footer like you would for a stick built house and set Perma-Column Sturdi-Wall brackets on top to attach your posts to the foundation. We have done that multiple times. Downside is that usually a traditional poured footer is more expensive, but sometimes it makes sense depending on the situation.
You forgot one. Installing a concrete donut with gravel between the post and the concrete for drainage. Than installing gravel around the posts compacted in lifts,
We were trying to cover the most used options, but you are correct, there are many variations on how to set a post! That one I haven't heard of, but it sounds interesting! Not sure how the concrete "donut" would work. Would you have that preformed or poured in place? And how would you compact the gravel in lifts, with a small tamper? Thanks for the input!
@@MilmarBuildings The donut is a precast round concrete pad dropped in the hole. Takes the place of dropping a bag of sackrete in the hole. The gravel would have to be tamped with a pole like the Japanese use to compact soil. The thing is with gravel the more a pole wiggles the tighter the gravel gets.
Great question! A lot depends on ground conditions and installation but in general, for left to right, 1. Wet-Set brackets will last as long as poured concrete piers, which is over 100 years, 2. Perma-Columns are 10,000 PSI, so the same or better 3. Wood in poured concrete, a lot depends on installation, but I would give less than 20 years unless carefully installed 4. Post Protector sleeves are rated to last 350 years, so as long as they are installed correctly, should make the posts last over 100 years 5. Treated wood post in ground. The posts we use are rated for 50+ years, but I would say that is only for good draining soil conditions, not high water tables or clay heavy soil. I could stand corrected on some of those, but that is what my opinion on them is right now. Thanks!
Usually, you want to make sure a plain treated post has good drainable fill around it to keep it from rotting, but with the post protector sleeve, you can pack it even with clay or wetter fill or even concrete as it keeps the post from touching any of the backfill! Pretty handy!
@@FredFlintstone21 Depending on your labor costs they are similar in cost. The Wet-Set bracket itself costs less than the Perma-Column, but you have to pay for the concrete and labor to set those just right
@@MilmarBuildings My sister built a 40 x 70 shop and I asked her what she did with her poles. She said, "We attached all of our poles, etc. right to the top of the concrete. No poles below the concrete. Reason is because it needed to be a floating building because of the movement of the earth below - very dense clay - so when the hills move, the building has to move or else the hill will take out the foundation. That is what happened to the barn and the house. The concrete is 8" thick to accomplish this without cracking. Also, rebar is double thick going both square and diagonal."
That all depends on where you live. In our area in the Midwest, they want to see the posts down 4' typically to go past frost layer (deeper further north in Michigan) your local building department will let you know, but most of them will approve any of these methods, though I wouldn't suggest using #3 as that is an inferior way of setting posts in general.
Can anyone give me a good idea on how to go about my pole barn project. I am turning it into a fully finished garage. It's 24 by 24. I'm pouring a floor in it. The problem is the structure is solid but has been in the ground for 20 or 30 years. I don't want to do nothing to protect my investment in fully finishing it and I know I need to do something with the post now to ensure a long life of the post which will still hold the structure. Any ideas?
That's a great question! Are the posts failing at this point or starting to rot or are they in great condition? You could either try sistering in new posts with concrete bases like Perma Columns or Post Protector sleeves next to the old posts before pouring your floor, or Savage Industries has an interesting metal post base repair product that goes directly on to old posts to make them strong. www.savagebuildingsystems.com/
I know cost is a factor, but why not use steel beams for support beams? Coat the underground surface of the beams with roofing tar, or plastic coating and encase the coated inground surface of the support beams in concrete - and call it a day? Your thoughts anyone?
Steel beams is one way to build and there are many good builders out there that use steel beam framework, but that is usually bolted to a concrete foundation, not buried, as steel underground is not common. Steel frame buildings especially make sense if you are doing a 95'+ clear-span or if you want a lower slope roof, such as for commercial settings. We deal in traditional wood post frame buildings with metal siding/roof, so that is what this video is covering.
Not for the large post frame buildings we are building. That product looks pretty interesting for decks and small sheds, but I haven't seen a largely available helical pile method for large post frame buildings yet. Do you have a supplier you know of that provides that service for post frame buildings?
My wife and I are planning to start building a post frame house in the next couple of months. We are going to be in North/Central Idaho. Cost is of course going to be a huge factor, that is why we plan to build the structure ourselves. Does your company's range extend to Idaho? We already have come up with our desired dimensions and a basic floor plan. How would I go about seeking a materials estimate?
Hello Vaughn, I sure wish we could build in Idaho, that is some beautiful country! Unfortunately, we only are able to service our local area in the Midwest, mainly Indiana and southern Michigan. We also don't have our own supply yard and source our materials from several local suppliers. Best of luck with your project and you may want to check out www.nfba.org to see if you have a closer builder/supplier that could help you out!
Either of the first two options are the best for a house application if the budget allows. Check out Perma-Columns website to see what they have to offer! 👍
Absolutely, costs on everything is pretty high right now, but if you want to keep your posts out of the ground, it is worth the investment. The Post Protector sleeves are a more affordable and easy to install option to separate your post from the ground as well! Home Depot carries them as well.
Great video! Most of the rot on the poles we have seen is starting at ground level to about 18 inches down. What we have done is to coat the poles with roofing tar but we go one step further. We wrap the pole with Ice and Water Shield roofing protection starting at about 6 inches above the ground down the pole the width of the wrap. It basically is a barrier from the ground to the pole and is a really cheap and great option.
We actually looked at a pole barn we built 20 years back that was damaged in a storm and the poles we did with this method were still in new condition so I would expect them to last my lifetime and my kids lifetime.
That would be a similar principle to the Post Protectors (option #4) but we have found the Post Protectors to be very quick and easy to install while maintaining a full separation of wood from ground contact. They also make a grade board protector to keep the grade board from contacting the dirt. Thanks for the info!
Another thing to do is attach a couple 6”-8” pieces of scrap treated 2x6 to the bottom of the post to assist in holding against frost heave,Makes a big difference. Added insurance.
Should clarify that they are nailed/screwed to the sides at the bottom
i toss a bag of sakrete in the bottom of the hole and stand the post on it and pack stone and dirt around it tight. been doing it that way for 30+ years. i have also coated the bottom of the post with roofing tar below grade but that adds to the cost and time.
Roofing tar is excellent...
I am on my second ploe barn type shop. And also apply 2 coats of roofing cement 3' up the post and a generous amount on the ends. Have also done this on a few other applications where I buried a treated 4X6 in the ground. I was curious if others do this. Nice to know. One other thing I do is drill 2 holes around the perimeter of the building through the post and insert rebar in these holes. and they are inbedded in the concrete when I pour the slab for the shop. The rebar goes all the way around the building in every post. Robert
My pole barn was built this way and I was very skeptical when I first saw the builder doing it!
@@francisleonetti1120 Which way? He showed 5 options.
@@chrisallen2005 dig hole, dump bag, level/plumb post, throw dirt in.
Great video. I use cored block piers or charred and tarred in ground on a cement cookie. Do keep in mind masonry below grade can become water logged if it can't dry out. So soil conditions play a big factor in in choice of a foundation.
Absolutely, always consider soil conidtions, but thankfully Perma-Columns are pre-formed, pre-dried at 10,000 PSI rating. Good stuff!
I live on the top of a hill, when I built my pole barn, excellent drainage. I followed the locals, and dug as deep as I could with a skid steer auger, poured some crushed stone at the base, and then filled in with drainable/compactible dirt fill. I have had zero movement, no rot, no issues so far. (about a decade and a half) my poles were 4 thicknesses of .40 PT 2x6's, stainless nails below ground, steel nails above 4" up. I staggered the PT with KD above ground, 4 different lengths, Prior to applying shiplap pine vertical I lag bolted the posts every 2' (in addition to nails.
That's great that you have such good drainage! I probably would recommend using concrete at the base instead of crushed stone, but it sounds like it is working for you, so that is good! Unfortunately, a lot of our owners have much damper ground, so we have to take more measures to prevent rot, but sounds like you thought your process through!
Does Ground contact lumber buried in the ground work for any type of soil ?
We used treated poles and painted on roofing tar on bottoms and up a foot over concrete slab.
Thank you I will do this!!
Mine was 3 foot galvanized I beam, cutting 6 inches of the web out (leaves you 5.5 inches ID) weld that plate for the pole to set on, drill your holes. The I beams are the ones used in most states driven in the ground for guard rails. (6 foot is typically the length).
Planning on building a pole shed for my tractor and I would go with either of the 2 options that don't involve thee post being below grade. Thanks for the video.
I've only used #3... I use 3" screws drilled in half way at various levels around the base of the 4x4. The screws seal in the cement for uplift protection. Glad I ran across your video....
Thanks for putting this all in one place! I really like the idea of the plastic sleeve, but what keeps water from collecting between the sleeve and post? We have really wet ground here.
You can leave the sleeves solid so that no water would get in, but honestly, water itself doesn't rot the post, you also need bacteria and warmth, which is why most posts fail right at ground level with the combo of those things. If you have a high water table and are worried, the concrete Perma-Columns are a great option as well.
I used the sleeves. There are holes that the directions have you drill for drainage (optional) . You set the sleeved post in the hole and on your doughnut, fill with gravel past the drilled Holes so water drains out the bottom, then pour concrete.
@@MilmarBuildings why not use a metal pole instead of wood? Would a fence post be stronger than a 4x4 wood post?
@@TheRainHarvester I'm not aware of a metal pole option right now for Post Frame buildings. The Perma-Column is concrete below grade with a 1/4" steel plate bracket that gets bolted through to the wood post above grade and has a longer lifespan than even a concrete basement wall. Also, we never recommend using 4x4 posts for a building, we stick with 6x6 and larger as needed for wider spans. Occasionally we use a 4x6 post for an entry door framing, but for wall supports, 6x6 laminated columns are the way to go.
No 1 is highly recommended. For sure it will last for generations.
Especially if the stirrup has a 1" to 2" raise above floor level which stops moisture from rotting out the base of the pole., the stirrup footings I use dont have reo any more they have an extended shaft anywhere from 4" up to 18", 1 " to 2" pipe with a foot at the base and a 1/2" x 3" x 5" flat plate, you have to saw a groove at the base of the post and bolt the two together, this is all done to stop rot from water.
I have used a technique where I take an "I" beam which goes into the concrete (with mud hooks) and sticks up about 4' above grade. I drill about 4 holes through the web and then I have the ability to through-bolt wood uprights to the top of the pole barn. In this way there is a firm foundation and no wood touches the dirt. All that is needed is to ensure that the "I" beam is level (done while the concrete is wet).
That's interesting, I have never seen someone use an I-beam that way but it sounds fairly strong!
Sounds very interesting. It's hard to visualize that. A picture would be great.
What keeps the I beam from rusting out where it's imbedded in the concrete? Sounds like an inside out lally column, which are known to rust at the bottom where moisture collects. Concrete never dries out completely
The only issue with that is that the vertical load from the building is being supported by the through bolt connection
I've been thinking about this issue for some time, wanting to get the best residential post frame solution for the cost. The components necessary for rot are food source, oxygen, moisture, and temperature. Rot occurs in untreated posts from +2/-12 inches relative to grade, because this is where the combination of all factors is present.
If you apply a plastic sleeve, it seems important to drill a small hole in the bottom so that accumulated water can escape. Also if you want uplift protection you need drill bolts at multiple sites through the sleeve so that it adheres to the post. At which point there are two ways near the base of the post for water to (over the years) enter/exit. Because the sleeve is not airtight: warm, oxygen-rich air from the surface can make its way down. So while you are separating the post from soil, the conditions may be viable for rot not only near the surface but throughout the length of the buried post.
Would it therefore make sense to air-seal around the top of the post-protector to prevent surface-level air from reaching the bottom of the post?
With the Post Protector sleeves, you have the option to drill weep holes at the bottom or leave it solid. I do know some people like to silicone the top of those sleeves, but with the multi-year tests they have run on those, I don't think you would have any rot issues, silcone or not. Especially seeing as they are encased inside a sealed wall.
Thanks for your thoughts!
Most post sleeves have weep hole in the bottom so that the moisture can drain out.
Wouldn't a weep hole let moisture and dirt *in*, though?
@@confidentlocal8600 A thought process there might be - the weep hole is on the underside of the sleeve, and the sleeve is surrounded by concrete that is resting on a layer of a few inches of gravel. The concrete may have a "resting humidity" but as it becomes saturated the excess water drains down to the gravel due to gravity.
Some moisture to the wood is doable, but if there was some unforeseeable process that caused water to accumulate around the bottom of the sleeve, it might lead to failure more quickly if there was no ability to drain.
Coat poles with coppertox up to two feet (termite control); Coat end grain with tar (moisture control); Attach pole to a galvalume support on concrete footings 6in above grade. Southern old school method lasts 50 years.
Thanks for the ideas! I think you would save a lot of time with the perma-column option which keeps your wood 16" above grade and saves you all those steps if possible.
50 years? Is that supposed to be a long time?
Would have been good to also mention the massive difference in lateral strength between the first 3 compared to the last three. More "structural" members are required to prevent "racking" if the pole/post is split between above/below grade.
A local contractor lost an entire 60x80 building using the first method during construction because they framed the building, and installed the metal roofing before doing anything with the wall "girts" and sheathing/metal.
A brief gust of wind grabbed the open roof and the entire building "racked" and collapsed in the one direction. Each post failed in some fashion at the anchors and base of the post. some split the post, some pulled the anchor loose from the concrete... It changed my sequence of construction when building...
Correct, the lateral strength for split-units like Perma-Columns is all in how well it is anchored to the post. Throwing some screws in it won't work, it has to be structural bolted. Having a building rack is a scary thing regardless of the foundation and the best way to avoid that is get the metal on quickly and make sure the temp/permanent bracing is installed correctly. Definitely something to watch out for!
Our builder mentioned this very thing and what they do to create more lateral strength in the posts is stack four treated 2x6's to make the poles instead of a single post then the run carriage bolts through each of them along the length. It has held up extremely well in some of the gale force winds we get up here in the Rockies.
The chain / cable cross bracing needs to be in place and maintained until all of the lateral sheathing or metal is up. Sounds like they didn't have it all in place.
Here in Minnesota I'm building a 42x56. I believe I'll be coating the posts with roofing tar, and adding rain gutters to keep most of the rain away from the building.
That's an old school way of keeping the soil from contacting the post. Gutters are always nice to keep water away from the building. Good luck with your project!
Just doing the tar from ground level down? Since rot only happens here. I hear people do diesel and old motor oil mixed as well
Would be great if you could shoot a video of your poleshed, I live in Minnesota as well
Will moisture collect in the Post Protector sleeves? I hear some people drill a hole in the bottom, but it seems that would just allow water and dirt up into the sleeve. Maybe the post being damp below grade inside the sleeve is okay since the treatment can't leave the wood. I'm building in a low-lying area where the clay soil can be seasonally boggy.
There are optional weep holes that you can drill in the post protector sleeve, it all depends on your soil type. But that far down, there isn't enough oxygen to rot the post like the top 12" at grade. And with a small weep hole, you aren't going to get a lot of intrusion. Good question!
Should have also shown the dry set version along side option 1, or as a stand alone since it is useful for footing wall type foundations for rodent prone areas or a pole barn with crawl space and wood flooring.
For sure! The Sturdi-Wall brackets are nice for adapting post frame to a poured footer wall. Good thought for the next video!
Doing a pole barn/ garage 32x40. Pouring concrete all the way past grade. Is 14” diameter hole 48” deep good for the footing
Because of soil conditions in my area which include boulders, drilled footings would have been expensive . I went with a poured slab with a thickened edge that with brackets bolted to it and the posts. Made for a perfectly squared and level building and all wood above ground.
Absolutely! In cases where the ground doesn't allow for piers, a traditional slab with the Perma-Column dry-set brackets can be the best way to go!
Is this an area where the ground freezes? I plan on building a pole barn in Vermont but I think this too much ledge where I want to put it. So I was thinking slab-on-grade but I'm not sure if the cement will crack in time
@@MrSprintcat just use 1½" styrofoam under the concrete. You will have no frost heave, therefore very minimal cracking. Also use a vibrator and vibrate the whole floor. I usually vibrate about every 6" in line
What soil conditions? Too rocky?
Which one is best in hurricane prone areas?!
From what we've learned, the perma-columns with preformed concrete footings are an option for hurricane areas. But we don't currently build in any states that experience hurricanes, so it's not our area of expertise. We would definitely recommend talking to a post-frame company from a hurricane-prone area for their recommendations! The National Frame Building Association has a great resource for finding post frame builders in your area! www.nfba.org/aws/NFBA/pt/sp/directory
Question: Can you combine building a pole barn construction but pier & beam base? I have researched without success. We want to build a 24x24 2 story cabin. The best property view would be about 3’ off the ground to clear the view from a nearby property fence. Hope this makes sense. Thank you!
Absolutely, as long as your piers are rated for the weight/shear...etc., you could bracket off the Sturdi-Wall bracket showed in this video and build from that.
The way I like to do it is casting a 1/2" J-bolt into the concrete, with an cross of 1/4"x10" steel wired to the base(usually some old spiral nails in that size), as further uplift protection. I then bolt a Simpson ABA bracket to the top, and nail the treated 4x4 post to that. I haven't been doing it long enough to know if the zinc electroplating on the Simpson brackets will have rust issues being in contact with the PT wood, but I've found no similar bracket sold in a hot dip finish.
Interesting to see the different options. Pole barns are much less expensive and quicker to build than stick built but I would never trust wood in the ground for a permanent structure.
Most of the buildings we build these days have some form of separation of wood contact to ground such as Perma-Column or Post Protectors. Much better option than the traditional treated post-in-ground method.
What about setting it on paver, then 30% dirt, 40% concrete, then finishing off with 30% dirt. This should allow any moisture to pass all the way though the concrete when/if the post shrinks
That is possible, but also tough to balance and keep water drainage appropriate compared to Perma-Column or Post Protectors permanent solution.
Thank You for posting this . It is a grreat find for anyone wanting a pole barn !
I have a couple questions.
On the third example, can the concrete be poured with an above ground casing so the concrete is above where water could get in? Wouldnt that prevent any rot at all?
Also, in the last example, does it need rebarb in the base of it? And then, is it just back filled with same dirt or does it need to be something else added in?
The third option is not one we would recommend, but if you have to use that for code reasons or you just really want to, I would make sure that concrete comes up and is sealed as best as possible to prevent bacteria/moisture from working it's way between the post and concrete. That is the flaw in that design, the concrete tends to trap moisture and bacteria against the post causing rot. On the final example, that doesn't need rebar, it can be poured at the width of the hole and 10-12" deep for a solid footing on most barns. And yes, as long as the soil is good draining type, it can be used to backfill around the post, which will allow water to drain away from the post rather than trapping it. Good questions!
Have you ever heard of using 2 heavy coats of Liquid Rubber foundation sealant on the base of the post, when using the last method #5?
We have heard of many different liquid applied methods that people have tried, but the best option would be to have a solid separation from the soil like Post Protectors or Concrete Perma-Column methods. Rubber coating may help, but if moisture and rot work it's way through, it could actually speed up the decay by "trapping" moisture in the post.
I am building a post frame using wet set brackets, but have noticed a problem with this method. Water will pool atop the concrete right at the joint between the concrete and the bracket if there is no flashing to shed the water over the top of the concrete. I have yet to see anyone on TH-cam address this. The 1/4" steel brackets will rust away faster than a pole would rot. I'll be making flashing for mine, and will show it on my channel.
That is an interesting thought! Those brackets are pretty thick steel and I have seen some people "float them up so that only the bottom would be possibly touched by the concrete and slope it away and I have also seen people bury those brackets partially into the poured floor. Your best bet to install them correctly would be to contact Perma-Column themselves and see what they recommend. Would be interested to see your flashing solution. Thanks for stopping by!
The brackets are inside the structure and powder coated. How is corrosion an issue?
@@christopherhaak9824 The brackets are not inside the structure. They are on top of the concrete pads which are clearly visible from the exterior, and powder coating does not make them impervious to water. Several had rust on them from sitting outside a few weeks.
@@PlanetMojo the brackets are interior to the external purlins and outer surface skin. So, they are inside the structure unless you build without walls. The brackets don't rust, the rebar connections might, they aren't powder coated.
@@christopherhaak9824 That is incorrect. They are directly exposed to the elements, and can be seen from the outside of the building. Water goes down the side of the building to the top of the piers and goes directly onto the tops of the piers and back to the brackets. Powder coating will deter rust for awhile, but it is not rustproofing. I can make a video that shows it clearly if you like?
For building green/cheap in climate zone 3 (mixed humid), how would you detail the floor/wall connection using option 4? Wet set brackets would involve thermal bridging so I would prefer to avoid that.
Hello there! Sorry I didn't see your comment sooner! If you wanted to use Post Protector sleeves, you can build that exactly the same way as a traditional post frame building with grade board set right through the sleeve and concrete floor poured up to grade board and around the post/sleeve. Post Protector also offers a product that covers the grade board and keeps it from touching soil, to extend the life of the grade board. Hope that answers your question!
@@MilmarBuildings It does, thank you very much!
What would you suggest for a really tiny pole barn? I'm making a lean-to shed thats going to be about 8x12. I want to build it like a pole barn, so I can add a cement slab later. It'll be used as a garden shed (garden and lawn tools, lawn mowers, etc)
Good question. If your budget allows, I would definitely suggest going with one of the Perma-Column options as they are permanent and will never have an issue with rot in the future. But since it is a garden shed, if you don't want to spend as much, you can always go with the Post Protector sleeve or a well treated post. It all depends on how permanent you want to make the building and how good your ground drainage is in your yard. If it is all sand and drains super well, you can get by with a treated post for a garden shed just fine.
@UCEeRl9TZVCiUXgYUXNyMoHA Deck post brackets may/may not work, I would check with the manufacturer to see if they are designed to hold that load laterally, but I wouldn't see why you couldn't find a bracket that works. You don't need to use treated 4x4 if they will never make water/ground contact, but if they are close and may have that in contact, I would for precaution.
on 2,4,5 are you just filling in with fill dirt? Wish you would have mentioned that however it seems from the images you are filling in with dirt? Do you have a link where to get the metal sleeve on number 2 or the brand name? I appreciate this video i was about to do this wrong my thoughts before watching this video was to do what number 3 showed. I thought for sure putting it on a solid concrete foundation that was about 4 inches solid than placing the post on top and filling it with about 2 ft of concrete was the best idea but am surprised it's not according to this video
Would love to see a pier foundation. Galvanized posts last forever and very little to do to get started. Just jack hammer them in and done.
Yes, a pier system or screw-pier system would be neat, but nobody has developed it to the point of great usability yet for post frame buildings. They do have some great options for porches/decks though!
@@MilmarBuildings Diamond pier has. 2 different systems.
@@neckofthewoods24 Correct, those are built for decks, pergolas...etc., not sure they would pass for a full large post frame building though.
I did a chicken coup with trampoline poles fitted into hammer-drilled holes.
Now I'm wondering if i could do a shed foundation using a pole every 2 or 3 feet on a grid. Maybe a 1.5' deep into limestone/clay central Texas.
Have Existing Pull Barn (built mid 1990's - I believe 1997 based on permits) with 10 foot single sliding door. Pole Barn is a 40X40. I would like to add an additional sliding door (same size) directly opposite this door. This will aid in pulling in and pulling out trailers, popup campers, etc. Not to mention provide good cross ventilation. I believe, from looking things over, one 4X6 structure pole will be removed and a new one slid over like 2 feet. A like cross board (from memory 2X12) put in place overhead etc (Similar to other door). The question is I have a EarthQuake post hole Digger (2 person) that can dig a 10 inch hole about 50 inches. I also have a 8 inch auger bit similar size. Is that wide and deep enough (8 or 10inch) or should I rent larger equipment for this one hole dig? I was planning on a concrete around pole approach for this single pole. I am not certain if they make smaller pads then 14 inch. (What I see at local hardware store).
Our standard approach would be to use a 6x6 post instead of 4x6 and auger that hole 18" wide and 4' deep (for our local frost levels in Indiana) I also would suggest you pack around that with drainable gravel rather than concrete to keep the pole from rotting, but if you use concrete, be careful to slope it away and seal up the top to keep water/dirt from making it into there. Or get a Post Protector sleeve on that post prior to pouring concrete around it. Best of luck!
@@MilmarBuildings - Only my corners are 6X6 in the building. The current sliding door is utilizing only 4X6s and cross 2 X12's. This pole barn was a kit. The to be removed post is not a tall post (~12 ft total - 4 below grade plus 8ft above) but I was going to get one to tie to the end roof truss top (~20ft including below grade). We probably have similar soils as Fort Wayne is about 50-60 miles to the west of me. Soil is Dark Heavy Clay. The soil is supposed to be some of the worse in the nation to dig I am told by the farmers all around me. Pardon my ignorance. wouldn't the large hole (18") allow the pole to possible move more? Is that desired? Also would a 4X6 then suggest typically a smaller hole? If 18" is needed I probably just do a couple side by side holes with the 8 inch auger and the post hole digger and just dig out the opening difference by hand, if its necessary. I can do stone but I had concern about stability. Thanks for the suggestions!
@@cmgray74 I hear you. Typically the larger hole is needed for a larger footer and to pack enough drainable soil/gravel around the post, but in your case, if it is not as much a load bearing post, you may be able to get away with a smaller hole, my only concern would be that if you can't get a large enough footer under the post, it may tend to sink if it doesn't have a good place to rest.
In an attempt to cob job/add protection to a wood pole... Wondering if a person could coat a pole in that liquid plastic stuff that you put on concrete backer board before tiling in a shower? Probably not adhere?
I would probably stick with solutions that are specifically built for a post frame building to make sure it worked long term. Shower coating isn't designed for being below grade.
I know someone who is building a 60x42 foot shop. The site is fairly far north in the Canadian Prairies, where buried water and sewer lines are typically put at a minimum depth of 8 feet to keep them from freezing. The engineering drawings for this shop indicate 18-inch concrete piles 8 feet long with 4 ply 2x8 laminated pressure treated columns set 6 feet into the concrete (method 3 in the video). The builder told the owner to just auger the holes to 8 feet, tamp 2 feet of 3/4-inch crushed gravel into the bottom of the hole, place the post on top of that and then pack 3/4-inch crushed gravel around the post to fill the rest of the auger hole. The shell of the building has now been built according to the builder's instructions. I'd be interested to hear if Milmar or anyone else might have any comments on setting posts in gravel like what they have done in this case.
The site is at the top of a hill where there is good drainage and where the water table in a nearby water well is 65 feet below grade so I am expecting that the posts will be in fairly dry ground.
That is an interesting method. I am guessing that the large depth of the base gavel and it being tamped tight could replicate concrete base, but I am not sure why you wouldn't just pour wet concrete for the footer to make sure? Not seeing how tamping gravel that deep in the ground would be easier than pouring concrete, but then again, we build in the Midwest, not the Canadian Prairies. I would always stick with local building code for permit sake. Gravel around posts is not a bad plan, it is clean, compactible and allows good drainage while locking in the post.
@@MilmarBuildings
I’m north of the 55th°
That means 8 feet deep. I have lots of sections of 14 inch diameter 1/8” wall steel pipe and an auger,
The soil is mainly clay 1-2% river rock (500’ above a lake 1/4 mile away.) With straight gravel I’m debating whether that would be an ideal drainage or a disaster looking for a place to happen.
Here screw piles are also permitted per code. but that’s high-tech for resistance torque. Which I can’t replicate with my backhoe auger set up. (With my 100 hp pump and motor it would be too easy to snap the screw piles clean off)
And to get the right people would be 5 to $8,000 bill added to that build.
I believe # 1 is my best choice.
.317 yd^3 concrete per is cheap.
How many you figure per side?.. @15 ft centres x10 piles.. it be 3yards+ or ~$550. (+?)
For 20’x60’
@@FFLFFS Wow, that is intense depth! And yes, the full concrete poured piers are nice as long as you can drill that deep in your soil type. Number of piers for us would be based on number of support posts, and in our area, that is 8' on center. If you are in a higher snow load, it may be 8' or even 6' or 4', so check your local codes, but I wouldn't go any wider than 8' on center for sure.
@@MilmarBuildings
Many thanks👍
What about using treated poles 25 ft. tall with a 6" top. How would you install round treated poles? As opposed to square treated structural lumber.
Good question! We never use round posts as they are much harder to get the connections we want for a good post frame building. Your best bet is to find a way to protect the post from rotting by coating it possibly, but round posts and tar coating is pretty old school. If you have the option, go with treated square lumber.
Is it ok to pour concrete around the post protector sleeve? ... So, you'd have a first pour of concrete for the footing at the bottom, 6 inches maybe, then place the post, then pour around the post maybe just a couple of feet up. Would that be more secure than just having dirt around it?
You could do that and the sleeve will keep the concrete from touching the post or trapping sediment, but if you want the ability for the weep holes on the sleeve to work, you would have to leave a space near the bottom to allow water to escape, possibly with a layer of open grade gravel.
I have a lot of billboard vinyl material. Could I not use stainless staples and wrap the pole with this material?
We usually wouldn't recommend that as dirt and water could still potentially work it's way through and degrade that vinyl over time. More peace of mind with using a product that is built for the long run. 👍
If one chooses to use #4 and sleeve the post, is compacting soil the best option? Or could one use concrete, as in #3 since the post is now protected from debris and water getting in by the sleeve? If one is using the sleeve, which fill would be stronger or more permit friendly (obviously that would depend on location, but in general)?
It depends on your ground, but typically we fill back in with the same dirt/clay that was dug out as that has plenty of compaction. Concrete wouldn't hurt, but would be more expensive/time-consuming. That being said, if you want to pour concrete around a wood post, I would definitely suggest going with a sleeve option to keep the wood separate from any bacteria that could work in there over time.
I'm building a small lumber storage building with cantilevered roof & 1 row of poles I have 5) 12' 6x6 white cedar posts
I'm thinking about wrapping the bottoms with "Grace" / ice & water type roofing membrane, my only fear is will this method seal the posts too well and cause dry rot or a similar type problem.
I have heard of people wrapping posts with various materials. The biggest danger on that is that when water works it way through the top or sides, the wrap can effectively "trap" the water next to the post and cause it to decay even faster. If you were very careful it might work, but I would probably leave the roofing materials on the roof and stick with something designed for in-ground use if possible.
@@MilmarBuildings thanks for the answer
@@billystray7007 any time!
In option 4, instead of the plastic sleeve can i paint on the treated 4x4 with like a tar or something that bonds to it as it cures creating that barrier between soil and wood? I dont know if theres a product out there that is specifically used for this
You could, but having a permanent, non-permeable heavy duty HDPE sleeve is going to do the job better than a coating that may wear away with time or allow bacteria to eat it's way through. We always recommend going with the safer method and Post Protector offers a 4x4 sleeve as well from Home Depot!
Dang you sure know how to make it complicated! Why not a PT post set in a few inches of rocks at the bottom for drainage, and THEN poured concrete?
We try to keep it simple, but also up to code. You have to have a concrete pad at the base to keep the post (and building) from settling downward. Having rock or sand around is great for drainage though.
I'm looking at doing option #3 for a cheap style pole barn (24x12) that I want to use a a garage/workshop with a dirt floor for maybe 2-4 years. Humidity is under 30% year round with only 4 inches of rain a year. Any reasons to spend more going for option 1 or 2?
If you are looking for cost efficiency, I would go with option 4. You can buy Post Protectors through Home Depot and surrounding a treated wood post with concrete like option 3 is usually not a great plan for longevity. We almost exclusively use option 2 and 4 currrently, and only use option 5 when someone is building a barn that they don't care if the foundation is fully intact in 40-50 years.
I've put the posts in square steel tube. And bolt it 2' inside the tube. The posts has 2 L brackets to site the posts to height you need or want. But fill the tube to with gravel to the height want this will help with water and weights on the roof for different type of weather. Most people dont do this because of the cost and time . Even drilling the holes
That's an interesting method and sounds durable if the tube is rated for that weight. Thanks for the idea!
Good video I'm planning a log pavilion,going to use pine logs ,about 10 to 12 inch in diameter,any suggestions on how to place the logs on the concrete footer, pavilion will be 20'x20' gravel base and stone pavers ,reason will cost way too much to pour concrete and cannot get to job site with a mixer truck , thanks
That's a good question, I would definitely use some form of concrete footer if you can, there are pre-formed footer pads you can buy to set those into the ground. Best bet is to ask a local builder in your area to make sure it meets code and will last.
I'm trying a rammed car tire stack with rebar. The post sits on the first rammed tire that clears the ground surface and a further two tires keep the post from moving. Tires are rammed with a mix of stones and sand using a pneumatic rammer. The rebars keep the stack together. Its cheap and super strong and no need for forms. Negative is a raised floor height but floor can sit on the tires.
That's an interesting approach. I can't quite visualize it, but the key ingredients to a post frame foundation is getting the base of the post (or pier) below the frost line to avoid heaving and protecting the wood from getting eaten by bacteria. Best of luck with your project!
@@MilmarBuildings OK, Thanks for the advice.
@@markwatch12 .. The tires and post are all above ground?
You are eating too much soy and not thinking clearly.
Found this very informative. Do you have any videos that outline which post option is best depending on soil type?
Not at this time, but any time you are dealing with less than perfect sandy conditions, we would recommend going with either Post Protectors or Perma-Columns to keep the post from touching the soil. Or even with sand, it just brings peace of mind about your foundation.
I plan to use 8-10" log posts and haven't found a sleeve protector, so would a spray/brush-on rubber or roof tar work?
Good question! We don't use round log posts, so I wouldn't be the best authority on that, but I would think that adding a layer of waterproofing to the posts and bring that up to above grade line couldn't hurt, though I don't know how long it would prevent rot beyond the standard treating that the post has. You may want to talk to a fence company as they typically work more with the round fence posts and may have better insight on that!
I would use sonneborne hlm5000 and dip the logs in it
ZACH • ...19 years ago I put in a PT fence. I Double-Coated 4x4” posts with roofing tar up to 6”-8” above grade. No concrete at all just gravel & a flat stone at bottom. Every one of my 32 posts are very sturdy today with no signs of rot.
@@unclefuddelmer9224 pretty much the same as the Sonneborne but without the environmental hazards.
Between the five, which one is sturdiest against earthquakes versus flood
That is a great question! Probably depends on depth of placement, footer, soil type...etc., but flooding would definitely be better to have a no-wood-to-ground contact for minor flooding and high water tables. Earthquakes are a whole different ballgame. Thankfully, in our building area in the Midwest, we have very few (and very small) earthquakes compared to the West Coast and other areas of the world.
What are your thoughts about using cedar rather that pressure treated posts?
Cedar is quite expensive, especially now, so we typically reserve that for porch post upgrades that will be visible after construction. For an upgraded foundation, Perma-Columns or Post Protector sleeves with laminated columns makes more sense.
Are they hand tamping the posts set with dirt around them?
You can hand tamp those, grade with machines..etc, but yes, they need to be set prior to concrete so there are no air pockets from the settling.
What about dry set brackets on a concrete slab? That eliminates post to ground contact.
Correct, that is another great option and a variation on the Perma-Column Wet-Set bracket shown as option 1. Same bracket made by them, but instead of a wet-set rebar, you can mount that with bolts to a standard foundation wall that is already cured. We have used that method on occasion.
I got the link from your description Post Protector I will order some
The best option is a 8" sonotube with a big base of 24" at the bottom with 3 bended steel rod in it and on the top sturdy wall braket! The concrete end about a feet and a half from the ground.
Sounds pretty good! There is definitely a few different ways of doing foundations for post frame.
That would be the most expensive by far. Its no trick to over-build something. The real trick is to not over-build and not under-build. That way you don't waste materials and money.
If my costumer can't pay me to do it the best way, I pass away! When I build something, I want to see what we've build it straight for multiple decade.
Is there any long term information on post life with the post protector sleeves? I'm building a post frame house soon and trying to decide exactly which way to go. I want it to last well over 100 years
Your best bet would be to contact the manufacturer directly on that and I am sure they could help you with specifics. I do recall that they are made to last well over 250 years without breaking down, so that is very good!
Clay, what did you end up going with? I'm in the same boat you were when you wrote this comment. Thanks.
ever used a closed cell foam around the post as a protectant?
Not on post bases, not sure how that would hold up under grade line.
With the post protection options, do you still pour concrete around the post like in option 3?
No, typically we back-fill with the native base or gravel around those. While you could pour concrete, it isn't necessary. It is more important to get a solid concrete base UNDER the post so that you don't have any settling and the built in uplift measures on the Post Protector keep that from shifting upwards. Side to side movement isn't a problem once it is back-filled and framed in.
perma-columns ALL THE WAY! keeps the wood completely out of the dirt. easy to set, very easy to replace the post if it gets damaged. the posts DONT have to be treated ( cheaper ) AND the way the columns are built by using 3 boards nailed and glued together are way stronger than 1 single post. its a no-brainer if you want the building to LAST! we put up a 40x80 barn and LOVE them!
They are a great product and we use them often!
Can you pour a pier for wet set brackets without a sonotube?
Yes, some builders use a drilled hole for that, or a partial tube at the top if the top of the hole is collapsing. You can also place those into poured footer walls that are in forms.
If using #1, what should be the min diameter of the hole?
18" is the typical post hole size drilled.
Is it possible to replace poles that have been compromised by weather?
It is possible, though not easy. Sometimes, if the building is in bad enough shape, it is actually cheaper to demo the whole thing and build new, but that all depends on condition of the steel and posts together.
What about Green Post? I don't see these listed here.
That is a similar option to Post Protector sleeves, there are several sleeve/wrap options out there, we like the Post Protector sleeve option and have added their grade board sleeve as well now!
Can I just use rock at base of pole protector post for drainage?
Yes, rock is good for drainage, just make sure you have concrete directly underneath the post to keep it from settling in the ground. Rock around the base and opening the optional weep holes on the Post Protector should keep that dry as long as you have decent drainage/water table.
What would be the best solution for a 20x20x12 pole barn in Florida to deal with wind sheer force where we have to have a wind rating of 170MPH?
Hey Anthony, that is a great question! I am not sure about Florida engineering as that is totally different soil and wind loads (and a lot less snow loads :) I would contact your local building department, or an experienced builder or engineer that is familiar with code and loading for your area to answer that for you, but I'm sure you could use the Wet-set brackets for a good waterproof solution, I just don't know what size you would have to make your piers for your soil type.
@@MilmarBuildings would there be any advantages or disadvantages with these pertaining to the sideways force? for example would the wet sets sway more or less than lets say a pole that is has some of its mass set inside concrete and burried?
@@MadMan_3353 I would think with a larger pier on the wet-set you would have less movement, both side to side and upwards provided it was properly sized.
I dont see how option 3 is bad, if the post will shrink or expand then won't they all do that??
Great question! The first two options won't shrink or expand as they are full concrete bases. The 4th option (Post Protector) doesn't matter if it leaves gaps as it still won't' come in contact with the soil (aka wood eating microbes) The final option won't matter if it shrinks or expands because it is surrounded by drainable fill that water will run away from. The danger of the third option is that the concrete around the post creates a "well" that holds dirt and water against the post if not installed correctly. Just a heads up for folks planning on using that method, you have to watch for rot issues.
What is the typical depth and width of the concrete in option 1? If the answer is location specific I am in lower Michigan.
Typically we would use an 18" auger for that hole and fill it with concrete. In lower Michigan for typical poles, they sometimes require 24", but with a solid concrete pier like that, for most buildings, 18" would sufficient.
Video was rad thanks for the knowledge man
Thank you for watching!
We’re getting the 1st one permanent column. Great idea compared to the old days.
Good call! Never have to worry about any issues down the road with your posts!
Excellent visuals
Thank you! I appreciate that!
Very informative. Thanks!
Thank you for viewing!
I'm wondering if the HDPE sleeves are made of raw material or recycled.
You could probably get that info direct from them at www.postprotector.com/contact-us/# They claim it is an eco-friendly prodcut, not sure on the materials used. Regardless, it is a good product to use.
@Mr. Cool Two types of people.. People who care about the world that they live in rather than just what's best for their own selfish interests.
The other is taxpayers in general.. HDPE is a relatively easy plastic to recycle and if there is a market for products made from it, the value of it goes up. This in turn, makes it more cost effective to process here in the US which not only creates jobs, but reduces the amount of waste dumped in a landfill. Reducing the waste dumped in a landfill increases the life of the landfill which results in a long-term lower cost for taxpayers.
So, why don't you care?
@@MilmarBuildings I looked on their site and didn't see anything about it other than that eco-friendly tag. But what does "eco-friendly" actually mean? I did not contact them but it's a good idea.
@@MilmarBuildings My email:
Hello. I recently watched a video where your HDPE post protector sleeves were mentioned and I am curious if those sleeves are made of raw HDPE or is it recycled? We seem to be swimming in HDPE in our waste stream and having a market for its reuse is one of the steps in reducing the amount of HDPE to keep our heads above water in our throw-away society as well as creating jobs in the US.
Thank you for taking a moment to answer my simple question.
@@timothyball3144 That is what I would recommend. All I know is the product is solid and we use it fairly often.
Pretty sure to get a regular fixed fanny may freddy mac loan, you need no wood to ground contact. So we are going with option 1
Not sure on the loan requirements, but it is always a good idea to separate wood from ground contact with one method or another. Good luck with your project!
What I have seen in the past was , the concrete footings, pt post , and paced screenings, just as is done on a telephone pole , does this deserve consideration, as it wasn’t one of your options. I’m older and that’s the way we did it thirty ,fourty years ago.
While we don't typically recommend this method since it may not hold up in a lot of soil conditions/environments, that is another method that may work for some! We don't use it for our builds, simply because it doesn't typically last as long as the ways we've covered in this video. It was standard practice on larger telephone poles, when those were used for pole barns, but not as fitting for the 6x6 posts that we use now.
I am a few weeks away from building a pole barn house/garage. What do you think about using a gravel base, Post Protectors, and than filled around with concrete? Better uplift resistance than just Post Protectors.
If you have the post protector to separate the concrete from the post, that would definitely be a good plan! I would recommend putting some form of footing underneath the post in the form of a round pre-fromed pad or pour concrete 10" thick in the bottom of the holes and let it dry before setting your posts. Another option for uplift protection is to attach a wood block horizontally to each post towards the base of the post to keep it from pulling up. Best of luck with your project!
@@MilmarBuildings . Wouldn't attaching the wood block to the base of the pole open up holes for water to get in our is that ok since it's at the bottom like that?
@@manfrummt It could, but in addition to it being far enough below grade to not have the oxygen to rot, you can seal those holes from the wood blocks by dabbing some sealant on before bolting in the block and you also have the option to open weep holes at the bottom of the post protector to allow any water that gets inside to drain out.
@@jackmcdonnell4876 .. Good thinking. Thank you. Now to find a sleeve for an 8" round post.
You just expanded my mind.
I got talked into doing the pole barn building method once on a 30 x 40 shop. Never again. I dont see the benefit unless it's just an open 3 sided shed or something. It turned into a hassle. You still need to purchase about the same number of 2 x 6 studs and lumber, but now you have wood posts in the ground. My upcoming build and all future builds will be a slab and walls built like a house. Easier to frame up and insulate, everything fits and costs about the same.
I hear you on that and I have encouraged people to build traditional stick-built in certain cases, it all depends on what your plans are. That being said, three of these methods eliminate ground to wood contact and Perma-Column offers a dry-set bracket that you can build off of a traditional poured footer or basement wall as well. It's always good to do your research and figure out what works best with both price and building process before committing to it. There are many different way to get the job done! Best of luck with your upcoming build!
I would think "racking" would be a significant issue with Methods 1 and 2. Use lots of Cross-Bracing!!
Cross bracing is key, especially before the metal sheathing goes on to help brace the structure.
can you show wall construction that will support a second floor
Generally adding a second floor to a typical post frame building doesn't change these foundations. Sometimes you need bigger footer pad underneath the post, but generally that is all, if anything.
You simply tie your floor joist system directly into your posts and you are good to go!
What's the cost difference between the first, and the second, post option? What about expected lifespan?
Cost is actually similar for us as the first option is cheaper in materials, but more costly in labor to install and the second is quicker to install, but costs more for the materials, but if you were self-installing, I would think the Wet-Set bracket would probably be a bit cheaper. On life expectancy, again, they would be about the same as they both are solid concrete foundations and should last longer than pretty much any other component of the building.
#1 and #2 provide no moment connection - these shouldn't be used (pinned conditions). Simpson has a moment base that would work though.
Not quite sure what you are referring to on that, but I would love to see your suggestion for the product from Simpson. I can assure you that Perma-Column is more than enough strength on a post frame building and it has been tested quite a bit.
@@MilmarBuildings I'm sure they are strong for gravity loads. But laterally pole barns are relying on a cantilevered columns that transfers lateral loads to the foundation by a fixed connection at the base (typically wood posts embedded into concrete). While your concrete itself is just fine, those two connections are just bolting the wood post to the base plate with two small bolts - there is no fixity in that connection - therefore the lateral load doesn't get into the foundation. So unless you have bracing above in the structure you wouldn't have a lateral force resisting system in place. The simpson product is new but it's called a MPBZ post base.
@@tonystenlund2899 I actually have looked into the MPBZ brackets some, and while they seem very suited to a free-standing pergola or porch structure, the Perma-Column is better for a post frame building that is braced not only by the lumber framework, but mostly by the metal skin itself with literally thousands of screw connections which "locks" a post frame building into place very strongly. Also, I don't know if you have had hands-on experience with the Perma-Column posts, but they have embeded rebar down into that 60" concrete column and the base is very thick metal that cups around the base of the post and is through-bolted, so having any twisting is all but impossible once it is installed. I love seeing new products though and if they work better, I am all ears!
@@MilmarBuildings thin metal doesn't have diagram capacity that's why PEMB's have steel cables. I am familiar with the perma columns - I'm not questioning its capacity. It's the connection of the wood to the plate that I'm questioning. Thanks for the replies and good luck.
@@tonystenlund2899 I appreciate the input, you obviously have experience in engineering and I always like to learn!
Just wondering when pouring your slab can you also build a 2-3 foot cement wall around the perimeter of the pole barn. So instead of setting you walls on the slab it would be set on top of the small wall?
Absolutely, you can pour a traditional footer like you would for a stick built house and set Perma-Column Sturdi-Wall brackets on top to attach your posts to the foundation. We have done that multiple times. Downside is that usually a traditional poured footer is more expensive, but sometimes it makes sense depending on the situation.
@@MilmarBuildings Thank you for responding. And thanks for educating me on what its called...'Footer'.
You forgot one. Installing a concrete donut with gravel between the post and the concrete for drainage. Than installing gravel around the posts compacted in lifts,
We were trying to cover the most used options, but you are correct, there are many variations on how to set a post! That one I haven't heard of, but it sounds interesting! Not sure how the concrete "donut" would work. Would you have that preformed or poured in place? And how would you compact the gravel in lifts, with a small tamper? Thanks for the input!
@@MilmarBuildings The donut is a precast round concrete pad dropped in the hole. Takes the place of dropping a bag of sackrete in the hole. The gravel would have to be tamped with a pole like the Japanese use to compact soil. The thing is with gravel the more a pole wiggles the tighter the gravel gets.
@@gary24752 Got it, makes sense!
do You have any vídeo talking about metal posts ????
We do not as we don't currently use any full metal post bases.
What is the life expectancy of each of the 5?
Great question! A lot depends on ground conditions and installation but in general, for left to right,
1. Wet-Set brackets will last as long as poured concrete piers, which is over 100 years,
2. Perma-Columns are 10,000 PSI, so the same or better
3. Wood in poured concrete, a lot depends on installation, but I would give less than 20 years unless carefully installed
4. Post Protector sleeves are rated to last 350 years, so as long as they are installed correctly, should make the posts last over 100 years
5. Treated wood post in ground. The posts we use are rated for 50+ years, but I would say that is only for good draining soil conditions, not high water tables or clay heavy soil.
I could stand corrected on some of those, but that is what my opinion on them is right now. Thanks!
What do you backfill the post protector option with?
Usually, you want to make sure a plain treated post has good drainable fill around it to keep it from rotting, but with the post protector sleeve, you can pack it even with clay or wetter fill or even concrete as it keeps the post from touching any of the backfill! Pretty handy!
Love the perma column idea! Would probably add 500 bucks cost per post
I think those Perma-Columns are around $120 or less per post last time I checked! 👍
@@MilmarBuildings would the 120.00 a piece be for #1 or #2 in your awesome video? And which you prefer?
@@FredFlintstone21 Depending on your labor costs they are similar in cost. The Wet-Set bracket itself costs less than the Perma-Column, but you have to pay for the concrete and labor to set those just right
@@MilmarBuildings My sister built a 40 x 70 shop and I asked her what she did with her poles. She said, "We attached all of our poles, etc. right to the top of the concrete. No poles below the concrete. Reason is because it needed to be a floating building because of the movement of the earth below - very dense clay - so when the hills move, the building has to move or else the hill will take out the foundation. That is what happened to the barn and the house.
The concrete is 8" thick to accomplish this without cracking. Also, rebar is double thick going both square and diagonal."
@@FredFlintstone21 there is also a dry set option from Perma Column. Kind of like red head anchors.
What does the building code allow?
That all depends on where you live. In our area in the Midwest, they want to see the posts down 4' typically to go past frost layer (deeper further north in Michigan) your local building department will let you know, but most of them will approve any of these methods, though I wouldn't suggest using #3 as that is an inferior way of setting posts in general.
Can anyone give me a good idea on how to go about my pole barn project. I am turning it into a fully finished garage. It's 24 by 24. I'm pouring a floor in it. The problem is the structure is solid but has been in the ground for 20 or 30 years. I don't want to do nothing to protect my investment in fully finishing it and I know I need to do something with the post now to ensure a long life of the post which will still hold the structure. Any ideas?
That's a great question! Are the posts failing at this point or starting to rot or are they in great condition? You could either try sistering in new posts with concrete bases like Perma Columns or Post Protector sleeves next to the old posts before pouring your floor, or Savage Industries has an interesting metal post base repair product that goes directly on to old posts to make them strong. www.savagebuildingsystems.com/
I know cost is a factor, but why not use steel beams for support beams? Coat the underground surface of the beams with roofing tar, or plastic coating and encase the coated inground surface of the support beams in concrete - and call it a day? Your thoughts anyone?
Steel beams is one way to build and there are many good builders out there that use steel beam framework, but that is usually bolted to a concrete foundation, not buried, as steel underground is not common. Steel frame buildings especially make sense if you are doing a 95'+ clear-span or if you want a lower slope roof, such as for commercial settings. We deal in traditional wood post frame buildings with metal siding/roof, so that is what this video is covering.
Galvanized steel post in concrete works well.
I'm sure it does, but wood is easier for most people to self-install and more common here in our area for post frame.
#1 is the best option. No pole contact with soil, should last the longest.
#1, #2 and #4 have no wood contact to ground, and we agree, it is best to separate that post from ground contact, even if it is treated well!
no screw pile?
Not for the large post frame buildings we are building. That product looks pretty interesting for decks and small sheds, but I haven't seen a largely available helical pile method for large post frame buildings yet. Do you have a supplier you know of that provides that service for post frame buildings?
My wife and I are planning to start building a post frame house in the next couple of months. We are going to be in North/Central Idaho. Cost is of course going to be a huge factor, that is why we plan to build the structure ourselves. Does your company's range extend to Idaho? We already have come up with our desired dimensions and a basic floor plan. How would I go about seeking a materials estimate?
Hello Vaughn, I sure wish we could build in Idaho, that is some beautiful country! Unfortunately, we only are able to service our local area in the Midwest, mainly Indiana and southern Michigan. We also don't have our own supply yard and source our materials from several local suppliers. Best of luck with your project and you may want to check out www.nfba.org to see if you have a closer builder/supplier that could help you out!
Beware no continuous footing. Warm walls bugs and mice will love you
to add on to a house a extra room should i go with the first one to make sure it wont move ?
Either of the first two options are the best for a house application if the budget allows. Check out Perma-Columns website to see what they have to offer! 👍
I’d only consider the first option.
It's a solid option and very similar to option 2!
so on post 2 and 4 what do you fill the hole in with??? very good video also
Thank you! On those posts, we would treat them just like post 5 by filling in with drainable/compactible dirt fill.
Thank you, excellent explanation of options.
Thank you much!
Are those 5 methods also in order by the cost of installation?
Not really, typically the perma-column cost the most, with post protector next, concrete around post and cheapest being straight wood post in ground.
@@MilmarBuildings Okay, thanks for the info!
Sweet information
I think this is cool if the prices where with them would help a lot 100 bracket the way to go but not cheap.
Absolutely, costs on everything is pretty high right now, but if you want to keep your posts out of the ground, it is worth the investment. The Post Protector sleeves are a more affordable and easy to install option to separate your post from the ground as well! Home Depot carries them as well.