So you should dictate to Tesla how and what they charge for their replacement parts. Right to repair shouldnt be able to dictate to a manufacturer whether they have to make available technology that they spent time and money developing at a cost YOU think it ought to be. I'm sure Rossmann would object to someone telling him what and how much he can charge for his services. If you can get someone other than Tesla to manufacture the parts, DO IT.
He failed to mention in the video that the model 3 fuse is located in the battery housing. In that area there are live high voltage contact points that can't be disconnected. Without proper training and tools/safety equipment, you will have people getting hurt or killed.
This channel is brilliant, in the world of clickbait titles, this channel underpromises on the title and over-delivers on the details and content, in a way that's accessible for anyone interested.
Great video! Learned a bunch about pyrofuses. Wonderful to see the evolution through four iterations, each one solving problems left in the previous version. Pretty cool energy harvester inverter too! 20mv stepped up to 6,000mv eliminating the lithium ion cells. Gorgeous design!
Small correction: the batteries shown on the Model S current monitoring board are lithium primary cells, not lithium ion. Big difference; Li-ion won't hold a charge for 10 years -- their self-discharge rate is too high --- and lithium primary cells are not generally rechargeable.
Another reason why right to repair is so important, I am looking at buying a Tesla but their approach to repair really puts me off. Thanks so much for making these videos & explaining how these complex components work in an easy to understand manner.
A very informative video. Pointing out the different dangers by all of these fuses. And .. the danger Tesla is willing to put model 3 buyers in. By not supplying spare fuses.
They will supply them to certified bodyshops or at least allow certified bodyshops to bring your car to them once work is completed and not void the warranty / Supercharging ability. This is against the concept of right to repair and they need a better balance of maintaining their image against bad work and being hostile to the actual customers
@@larryspiller15 I agree. Especially since Tesla doesn't even publish the procedure for checking the milli-ohm fuse junction resistance after replacing it, many people probably never check it. Tesla should offer the safety procedures to the public as well.
Such a great video. I like how you show the progression of the Tesla fuses, from early versions to the Model 3 version. I was "blown away" (pun intended) with the LTC3108 solution at 12:34. Use the small voltage drop across the shunt is a fantastic idea. I never would of thought of that. I have a problem with a fireplace where the thermopile in it does not generate enough voltage to turn the gas value on unless I turn up the pilot flame up (wasting gas 24/7). I think the LTC3108 will help me create a safe and reliable circuit to solve my fireplace issue. Thanks soooo much. Please, more of these videos!!
Great rundown as usual Phil! Love to see you back at it posting videos! Totally agree about the right to repair stuff, it’s so frustrating to hear about restrictions on parts for things like this that just cause more issues. As a suggestion, i think it might also be interesting to do a detailed comparison on the Model 3 e-fuses to standard automotive fuse. I still am amazed that even years after Tesla moved to them you still see replaceable fuses in most modern cars like the Ford Mach-E.
Very nice video. Some interesting designs. That battery powered fuse is a bad idea. The shunt-powered replacement is genius. I'm a big Tesla fan, but I would really like them to be more repair-friendly.
Very interesting to see the evolution of the pyrofuse and how they solved various issues. That connector is in the same connector family as the main airbags, seatbelt tensioners, seat mounted bags etc. If anyone is interested a good squib is typically in the 2.2-5.0 ohm range based on what I’ve recorded in the field. 2.5-3ohms is average. Not all manufacturers publish the resistance value or allow you to view it in scan tool data. I imagine you could verify the squib side of the pyrofuse knowing what a good resistance value is after testing several of them. Love these tear down videos
Your values may be including the wiring to the squib. I seem to remember that the actual squib in my Tesla was very close to 1.7 ohms. I use three 1/8W 5.1 ohm resistors twisted in parallel when I want to temporarily fake one to remove an air bag or for temporary tests when Tesla would not sell me a Pyro replacements. The three twisted resistor leads simulate a pyro pin size perfectly well. :-)
@@michaelchrisco7855 I have done a prior video on VCfront where I explain the 12v side of things. This video is about pyrotechnic fuses which much be replaced if tripped. Your 12v accy trip can be fixed by removing 12v power from the car.
The one difference I would point out with Tesla restricting parts on this, and Apple doing it for a phone or a laptop, is that no one is going to die if someone messes up a phone. Here simply replacing the fuse is potentially lethal, and if the fuse blew there's a good chance there's an issue with the inverter and main electronics, which means it might blow up a Supercharger of plugged in. So between the danger to the company owned equipment, and the high profile bad publicity that would come from people dying trying to put on parts they just bought from the dealer, I understand Tesla restricting parts and not allowing Supercharging for tampered vehicles.
@@antronx7 Why does it not stand? Why would you think that an acceleration severe enough to trigger airbags wouldn't be a threat to the battery? Sure, in many cases it won't an issue, but in many cases it is. How to tell those two apart without doing deep diagnostics into the systems? It's absolutely a question of safety. I trust that the channel host for example would know when it is safe to replace the fuse and when not, but how can Tesla be sure that a random person purchasing the fuse knows? This is the core question in these right-to-repair discussions - risk of making the product life-threateningly unsafe is IMO a valid argument to refuse releasing certain components to general distribution. That said, they absolutely should have a program (beyond just body-shop work) to authorize external mechanics who have been trained on these safety aspects and they should be able to purchase relevant restricted components.
Great informative video! Nice to see the story/iteration of the fuses over time. Tesla keeps getting smarter/better. I approve. Parts: I understand Tesla restricting parts, too many people would replace the fuse with coins if they could get away with it.
Great video. The major difference between the Model S/X pyro fuse and the M3 one is the Model 3 fuse can blow in 2 ways, overcurrent or an accident. The Model S fuse only blows from overcurrent
Wish you would have also discussed why it is, unlike every other car on the planet, there are no 12-volt fuse blocks or fuses to be found, anywhere. THAT is a major advance that no one has delved into, AFAIK. Thanks.
About stopping from repairing, I would put some blame on media, because when Tesla is in fire all reports it, no matter if it was repair one or out from factory. But I agree with you, it may lead to worst cases as people are using not correct parts to repair.
Great look inside these fuses, thanks. What your calling the plasma arrestor is called an arc chute. They been using them in high current breakers, like you said, for a long, long time. They work by stretching out the arc and dividing it by the elements and cooling it off. Some also rely on the magnetism of the arc and draw it up the arc chute with the inherent magnetism and contacts from the movable contact to get the arc to the arc chute. GE Magablast breakers use that, hence the name......
Stumbled on your channel from a video from Electrified with Dillon Lummis. You have very interesting videos. Having a Tesla and not having any access to how to fixes for changes is a problem. Thanks
Absolutely amazing episode, very well presented discussion of the Tesla design characteristics of the power management & control circuitry. Thanks for the presentation. I believe the Tesla “product security department” will be sending the black helicopters to your location in an effort to curtail further education of the EV consumer and maintainers. Carry on brother, you are the man!
Well done. I came here from SuperfastMatt and i enjoyed the full 20 minutes of you sharing your experience! I have almost no clue about electronics, but i understood everything, it's fascinating stuff :)
can you talk about the efuses in the lower voltage circuits? i'm assuming it's probably a TI eFuse or analog devices hotswap controller, but i have never seen what tesla actually uses.
Fantastic explanation!! The understanding of the behavior of electrons under different scenarios or conditions is the cornerstone of E.E! Just imagine as technology continues to be developed in R and D labs to create conditions that dont happen in nature to study just how electrons respond to such conditions is so intriguing. What a time to be alive!! And to think all throughout human history, scientist's clever design is just exploiting nature's tendency to return to equilibrium.
I had to get my HV battery contact switch replaced recently (2017 X) and they replaced the pyro fuse at the same time -- both under battery/drivetrain warrenty.
@2:00 You have raised an interesting question in my mind. You say that "inductance is the property of electricity to continue going." and "the electrons that are stacked up behind want to keep going.. inertia". I like this visualization but wonder if this inertia is simply a consequence of the collapsing field. My understanding of inductance is, it's the quantity of potential energy stored in the field created around a conductor, like that of a wound spring. If your statement is true, is the "inertia" that is driving the electrons through the plasma coming from the field collapsing? or more so, from the stored battery potential? And, if it's coming more from the battery potential, is it truly "inertia" or "inductance" considering the battery is continuing to feed the conductor with electrons. Great video, and I appreciate you taking the time to share this information.
Interesting concept. So the pyro parts has enough time to fully open to a distance where the inductive spark is no longer a risk. And the time is determinded by time lag behavior (or heat up time) of the 30A fuses
I definitely plan on it! If you are feeling generous, you can also support my channel! There is a link at the bottom of my channel's "about" page: th-cam.com/users/Ingineerixabout
Can you talk about what the E- fuses are and how they work in a model 3. I'm used to the old fashioned fuses. Are they just FETs? Are there extra circuits provided for user installed devices ? Can we just connect auxiliary circuits to the 12V battery with fused protection or does that void the warranty ?
Because the circuit they are trying to break could be running at 400V and tens of thousands of amps. You can find circuit breakers capable of handling that, but they are going to cost you a couple thousand bucks a piece. If Tesla was selling their latest model for $15, you know their wholesale cost is below that. So, there's your answer. A $10 assembly vs. a $2,000 circuit breaker. Any wonder Tesla went the direction they did?
@@JohnSmith-rf1tx I mean a QO Breaker can do 240V and up to 22kA interruption and costs under $30 USD. With the arcstack they are already using and a faster breaking speed they could do an assembly for under $50 that can be reset if needed. I think one of the main complaints fo the video was not having access to this assembly anymore and selling for $300 USD on ebay
@@TheAssassinPanda You're confusing the breaker rating with kAIC. kAIC is how much the breaker hand interrupt without damaging the rest of the panel. The breaker you're describing is designed to normally break tens or hundreds of amps, not thousands, and would trip under moderate acceleration.
Only in the event of a problem. Though if I were an owner of an early car with Insane or ludicrous mode, I would personally install one of these new units before the 10 year mark. So this is cars from 2014-2018.
Your videos are proving invaluable to my EV conversion project (2021 Y into a Volvo V70). Thank you. I am having trouble finding information about the RS309-MF fuse block in the penthouse. Is this for phase protection, motor protection or contactor protection? Should there be 3 fuses in the block, or two? Again, Thank you.
These are for the PCS HV and the HV ancillaries, so 2 fuses on heat-pump cars (2nd fuse is A/C compressor), and on older cars; 3rd fuse is the cabin PTC heater. Please be careful! Voltages are live in the penthouse and can be instantly lethal! If you need professional assistance, you can email me, my contact information is in my channel's "about" page: (use a full browser) th-cam.com/users/ingineerixabout
Since the power for the latest fuse comes from further away instead of being powered locally from harvested voltage, isn't there a new big risk that the cable could be severed and you wouldn't trip the fuse?
I agree with you on the issue of right to fix, but seeing from Tesla’s side: it should only be done by qualified or persons who know what they’re doing. Without that restriction, these cars can be repaired poorly, and present a real danger for its occupants. The public would know no difference other than that it happened in a Tesla.
How is this any different from ANY repair? If I repair your Dodge Hellcat and forget to tighten the fuel line when I replace it, and it sprays HIGHLY FLAMMABLE LIQUID everywhere, then what? Obviously people should be qualified, but a summarily delivered NO, regardless of qualification is sort of draconian!
Auto repair shops are inherently qualified to handle electric cars. Auto mechanics are skilled problem solvers that can follow a repair manual to fix anything. This fear spreading only plays to Tesla's advantage to maintain repair monopoly on their products.
@@Ingineerix Do you have any thoughts on how the issue could be solved? I do see both sides of the argument. Would something like a digitally signed maintenance log where it shows that you have replaced the fuse to this car be a solution (you would only be given the fuse after signing such a log entry)? That would have two functions: a) clears Tesla of any responsibility related to a botched fuse replacement and b) unambiguously places the responsibility on you (so you would have a clear incentive to actually know what you are doing)
@@antronx7 Your average auto mechanic of today has no idea of high-voltage systems. Definitely needs some sort of certification system. This will of course change with time as more and more mechanics have HV training. Any deep diagnostics into the high-voltage systems that require actually touching/probing energized parts is in some jurisdictions illegal to do unless you have the proper training.
it is sometimes the bms or the battery that short circuits and then it is usually unstoppable....when this happens ......there must also be space for his ways hiten because temperature difference you also need space also in a collision or damage battery can make it go off like a rocket 18650 pierce it and hate it off like a rocket 3.7 volts...for 1 sel and there are a whole lot in it per so many packs
I don't think that that fuse blows when the car is in an accident. I think it only blows with high current or a direct short. There is another fuse under the front trunk. I think that the fire men's loop and the fuse under the front trunk is wired in series and that opens the contacts in a crash
In Model 3/Y it most definitely blows when there is an airbag deployment. In S/X the 12v contactor pyrofuse blows. In either case, the car loses HV after an airbag deploys.
Interesting, thanks. I think a big driver of the new ‘disposable’ design is cost reduction. Those previous models that incorporated one, or multiple, off-the-shelf fuses, plus all the electronics, would’ve been horrendously expensive (100s-of-Ampes DC arc-quenching fuses are REALLY expensive!). Given the rarity of fusible events they, IMO reasonably, decided that an ‘unrepairable’ design was a better option, and probably shaved $1k off the $RRP.
From experience, some kinds of SEUs (google it) on the older fuse protected stuff would turn the inverter into magma before the fuse blew. The Pyrofuse is way faster and sometimes you can literally just replace the pyrofuse and it operates again. But the main reason was actual protection: They found they had to size the fuses so large to avoid stress failures (nuisance trip) in the fuse, that whenever there was an actual short, the fuse withstood it and bad things happened. This is because they kept upping the amperage demands on the pack as they improved the performance. Now the plaid is at 2300A. Good luck locating a fuse that can tolerate 2300A for 30 seconds, but will instantly trip if there is a 2400A fault.
19:15 There are actually pyrotechnic breakers, mostly used in power distribution, that use a .22 lr blank cartridge as their explosive charge. Cheap and easy. Problem there is, you really don't want people driving cars across international borders carrying "ammunition", the ownership of which might be regulated in that place.
I’m baffled by Tesla restricting / refusing to sell so many of their parts. They get so many things right, where other car manufacturers fail, but this issue needs a resolution. It’s like a dirty little secret that is so unlike Tesla.
No, Tesla has always been like this. They are taking notes from the Apple play book, they just want you to just buy a new Tesla, they clearly don't want repaired ones on the road. They are doing pretty much the minimum they are being forced to do.
Super interesting stuff, amazing how even trivial parts like fuses evolve. Fully agree with your Right to Repair comments at the end. Question: Does the pyro fuse(s) live inside the battery pack? Does the vehicle monitor the 2 Lithium cells or are you suddenly unprotected after 10 years (coming up soon for 2012 Model S) ?
The 2012-2013 Model S has the early fuse that does not have a current monitoring board; those were installed in the later dual-motor and performance versions, AFAIK. So, your early production car avoids this particular pitfall (but you still have the problematic/high-failure main contactors, the fuse-blowing DC-DC Converter, and all the rest of the early prod. issues we suffer).
Doesn't it come down to a safety issue when owners with little knowledge of the vehicle is doing DIY repairs? The question is who is doing them correctly and when they go up in a fireball when it is repaired incorrectly who gets hurt? This isn't as simple as a glass screen if repaired incorrectly doesn't hurt anyone.
Americans were doing questionable repairs long before Tesla. Tesla isn't responsible for that nor has any auto manufacturer ever been. My opinion is that Tesla doesn't want a tarnished reputation from someone else's potentially-poor repair.
Minor nitpick...I know you were trying to explain in an oversimplified way, but gas is not plasma. Plasma is a completely separate state of matter from gas...plasma isn't gas any more than gas is liquid.
Depends on Model and BMS. They have 2 trip levels each for on Model 3/Y and 2021+ S/X. HWOC which is a hardware level instant trip, and a software derived trip where current profile is outside of normal drive unit consumption possibility. I don't know the specific HWOC levels, but if you want to buy me a BMS computer from one of those models, I will test it and publish the setting.
I hate apple's practice of restricting parts, but what I have seen is that they worriy about their cars bursting on fire more than other cars manufacturers because they are always on the spotlight, it might also crash their stock, the car may need a revision after a crash or a simple fuse blow, and buying a new fuse and replacing it will allow it to road ready but if it bursts on fire, breaking news across the globe (same with fast charge). Its even worse with autopilot, if you change your car, and they don't block autopilot, your change might cause the car to kill someone while in autopilot, that happening over and over may end tesla for good. I don't know what can be the solution for this problem, it must be fixed, but we have to be open minded and not put them in the same basket as apple, these are matters of life and death, they have to manage to bring us cool tech, without killing people or ruining the company, removing sloppy repairs from the equation will help a lot in the beginning, but again it must be solved, we should have the write to repair.
I agree. I'm reasonably sure most of these "play it safe" moves are to protect the stock price. However by making them hard to repair, they are making the cars have lower value later in life, and the secondary market values after any insurance action are really hurting the brand long-term. Insurance rates on Teslas have become so high that Tesla is now having to roll out their own insurance. It's all due to Tesla's policies!
@@Ingineerix While I do believe stock price is a part of the considerations on these issues, I don't think it is ever a deciding factor. A much more important thing to consider comes from how Elon has described how he measures Tesla's success, which was about "by how many years/months did Tesla accelerate the transition to sustainable energy". High-profile accidents do not only tank the stock price but also, and more importantly, cause reputation damage to EVs in general, which would not help with the transition. At some point, of course, the other side of the coin starts to weigh more (as more and more of the fleet starts aging and needs more repairs) so their stance could change.
Hi guys! Anybody help me please. I bought 2013 model S after collision and my driver screen doesn’t work and doesn’t shift to drive. But big screen and lights work. What needs to be done to fix it?
Another great video, thank you. When this fuse blows will you lose ota connectivity or app connectivity? My screen shows HV battery at 40% so did it not cut the HV? I'm still able to charge as well.
If the pyro blows you lose HV. You'll still see the state of charge, but car would not drive or charge. Since you can still charge, your pyro is not blown. It will not affect connectivity.
3 seat belts discharged in the accident so contrary to popular belief, discharged seat belts do not trigger pyro fuse since I am still able to charge. Last software update was Feb 2023 on this 2021 Plaid S and the car sitting in a salvage yard since April will not connect to the app. Any ideas?@@Ingineerix
Positive. The LTC3108 is a ultra low voltage boost converter. This voltage comes from the drop across the shunt itself. There is clearly no other power source. The only connections to the PCB are the squib and the shunt.
Unknown. It probably wasn't even on a certain date, they probably went through all the stock and then switched. Though apparently Tesla keeps track of this and will contact owners of the older ones to replace them with the current-powered units, otherwise they will not have any protection.
No, There is no point. A light bulb has to have oxygen removed so the filament will survive the high temperature without oxidizing. A fuse only gets to a high temperature once, and you want it to burn when it does!
I don't think the Pyro based fuse was added until the 90 packs. I know there was a procedure to upgrade a P85D to Ludicrous that included upgrading the fuse, but since your car is not a "P", it's unlikely to have it.
When did they switch from the battery powered iconel fuse to the shunt powered one? Curious if August 2018 P100D is a ticking time bomb or will work correctly for years to come regarding the pack fuse.
This is such a good video; great explanations of functionality and the progression of Tesla’s design. Thank you for putting it together!
Did you assist in any of these designs when you where at Tesla Matt?
@@rickwhite7610 matt is a mechanical engineer, I don't think he works with electricity
you should talk to Louis Rossmann, he's fighting against such issues.
So you should dictate to Tesla how and what they charge for their replacement parts. Right to repair shouldnt be able to dictate to a manufacturer whether they have to make available technology that they spent time and money developing at a cost YOU think it ought to be. I'm sure Rossmann would object to someone telling him what and how much he can charge for his services. If you can get someone other than Tesla to manufacture the parts, DO IT.
@@bigdougscommentary5719 You sound like a fool writing this. You clearly have no clue about RTR, read the legislation carefully and come back again.
@@bigdougscommentary5719 Tesla stans are so god damn stupid, you dont even know what you are screaming about.
He failed to mention in the video that the model 3 fuse is located in the battery housing. In that area there are live high voltage contact points that can't be disconnected. Without proper training and tools/safety equipment, you will have people getting hurt or killed.
Super informative. I wasn't aware of the shunt powered one! Very clever indeed!
Same, only knew of the sand filled ones and the battery powered one until the Model 3 unit
This channel is brilliant, in the world of clickbait titles, this channel underpromises on the title and over-delivers on the details and content, in a way that's accessible for anyone interested.
Right to repair is a must! Great video.
Great video! Learned a bunch about pyrofuses. Wonderful to see the evolution through four iterations, each one solving problems left in the previous version. Pretty cool energy harvester inverter too! 20mv stepped up to 6,000mv eliminating the lithium ion cells. Gorgeous design!
Small correction: the batteries shown on the Model S current monitoring board are lithium primary cells, not lithium ion. Big difference; Li-ion won't hold a charge for 10 years -- their self-discharge rate is too high --- and lithium primary cells are not generally rechargeable.
Me at 12:00 - I hate Tesla, leaving my battery pack to zipper once the warranty expired.
Me at 13:00 - Tesla engineers are the best
This is the best description that I can find anywhere...Good work!
As usual very informative and top quality video. Thanks!
Another reason why right to repair is so important, I am looking at buying a Tesla but their approach to repair really puts me off.
Thanks so much for making these videos & explaining how these complex components work in an easy to understand manner.
I'm truly amazed and impressed by the depth of knowledge baked into these videos! Fascinating stuff!
Thanks Emese!
Absolutely awesome video. LOVE the 2 stage cutoff, what a concept.
6:35,showing peak 2KA,saying 200 amps.great video,btw
A very informative video. Pointing out the different dangers by all of these fuses. And .. the danger Tesla is willing to put model 3 buyers in. By not supplying spare fuses.
They will supply them to certified bodyshops or at least allow certified bodyshops to bring your car to them once work is completed and not void the warranty / Supercharging ability.
This is against the concept of right to repair and they need a better balance of maintaining their image against bad work and being hostile to the actual customers
Idk replacing that fuse shouldn't be done by an inexperienced person..
@@larryspiller15 agreed but as he mentioned now that it's restricted more dangerous workarounds are out there
@@larryspiller15 I agree. Especially since Tesla doesn't even publish the procedure for checking the milli-ohm fuse junction resistance after replacing it, many people probably never check it. Tesla should offer the safety procedures to the public as well.
Such a great video. I like how you show the progression of the Tesla fuses, from early versions to the Model 3 version.
I was "blown away" (pun intended) with the LTC3108 solution at 12:34. Use the small voltage drop across the shunt is a fantastic idea. I never would of thought of that. I have a problem with a fireplace where the thermopile in it does not generate enough voltage to turn the gas value on unless I turn up the pilot flame up (wasting gas 24/7). I think the LTC3108 will help me create a safe and reliable circuit to solve my fireplace issue.
Thanks soooo much.
Please, more of these videos!!
Great rundown as usual Phil! Love to see you back at it posting videos! Totally agree about the right to repair stuff, it’s so frustrating to hear about restrictions on parts for things like this that just cause more issues. As a suggestion, i think it might also be interesting to do a detailed comparison on the Model 3 e-fuses to standard automotive fuse. I still am amazed that even years after Tesla moved to them you still see replaceable fuses in most modern cars like the Ford Mach-E.
Very nice video. Some interesting designs. That battery powered fuse is a bad idea. The shunt-powered replacement is genius.
I'm a big Tesla fan, but I would really like them to be more repair-friendly.
Very interesting to see the evolution of the pyrofuse and how they solved various issues. That connector is in the same connector family as the main airbags, seatbelt tensioners, seat mounted bags etc. If anyone is interested a good squib is typically in the 2.2-5.0 ohm range based on what I’ve recorded in the field. 2.5-3ohms is average. Not all manufacturers publish the resistance value or allow you to view it in scan tool data. I imagine you could verify the squib side of the pyrofuse knowing what a good resistance value is after testing several of them. Love these tear down videos
Your values may be including the wiring to the squib. I seem to remember that the actual squib in my Tesla was very close to 1.7 ohms. I use three 1/8W 5.1 ohm resistors twisted in parallel when I want to temporarily fake one to remove an air bag or for temporary tests when Tesla would not sell me a Pyro replacements. The three twisted resistor leads simulate a pyro pin size perfectly well. :-)
Planar traces as a transformer, very cool! Could you speak about the 12VDC overcurrent management? Thanks for the videos!
Ok, it's on the list!
@@michaelchrisco7855 I have done a prior video on VCfront where I explain the 12v side of things. This video is about pyrotechnic fuses which much be replaced if tripped. Your 12v accy trip can be fixed by removing 12v power from the car.
The one difference I would point out with Tesla restricting parts on this, and Apple doing it for a phone or a laptop, is that no one is going to die if someone messes up a phone.
Here simply replacing the fuse is potentially lethal, and if the fuse blew there's a good chance there's an issue with the inverter and main electronics, which means it might blow up a Supercharger of plugged in.
So between the danger to the company owned equipment, and the high profile bad publicity that would come from people dying trying to put on parts they just bought from the dealer, I understand Tesla restricting parts and not allowing Supercharging for tampered vehicles.
They blow the fuse as a safety precaution when airbag deploys. So there may not actually be a fault in the circuit for that fuse to blow.
@@antronx7 an accident that deploys the air bags has a high chance of damaging the battery or other electrical components, so my point stands.
@@ke6gwf It does not. You made that up. Quit being a bootlicker.
@@antronx7 Why does it not stand? Why would you think that an acceleration severe enough to trigger airbags wouldn't be a threat to the battery? Sure, in many cases it won't an issue, but in many cases it is. How to tell those two apart without doing deep diagnostics into the systems?
It's absolutely a question of safety. I trust that the channel host for example would know when it is safe to replace the fuse and when not, but how can Tesla be sure that a random person purchasing the fuse knows? This is the core question in these right-to-repair discussions - risk of making the product life-threateningly unsafe is IMO a valid argument to refuse releasing certain components to general distribution. That said, they absolutely should have a program (beyond just body-shop work) to authorize external mechanics who have been trained on these safety aspects and they should be able to purchase relevant restricted components.
@@veikkoimmonen7300 because battery pack is very tough. safety nannies likeyourself have no clue about ev internals.
im here becouse of SuperfastMatt video:
Tesla Battery Swap Part 2 - We Continue To Shove A Model 3 Battery Into A 1950 Jaguar.
Great informative video! Nice to see the story/iteration of the fuses over time. Tesla keeps getting smarter/better. I approve. Parts: I understand Tesla restricting parts, too many people would replace the fuse with coins if they could get away with it.
Great video. The major difference between the Model S/X pyro fuse and the M3 one is the Model 3 fuse can blow in 2 ways, overcurrent or an accident. The Model S fuse only blows from overcurrent
Correct for older S/X, but not true in Model S/X starting with the 2021 Models. Older S/X also has a 12v pyro that cuts power to the contactors.
Oh ok thanks for the information!
Wish you would have also discussed why it is, unlike every other car on the planet, there are no 12-volt fuse blocks or fuses to be found, anywhere. THAT is a major advance that no one has delved into, AFAIK. Thanks.
About stopping from repairing, I would put some blame on media, because when Tesla is in fire all reports it, no matter if it was repair one or out from factory. But I agree with you, it may lead to worst cases as people are using not correct parts to repair.
Great look inside these fuses, thanks. What your calling the plasma arrestor is called an arc chute. They been using them in high current breakers, like you said, for a long, long time. They work by stretching out the arc and dividing it by the elements and cooling it off. Some also rely on the magnetism of the arc and draw it up the arc chute with the inherent magnetism and contacts from the movable contact to get the arc to the arc chute. GE Magablast breakers use that, hence the name......
I'll do a video on the new unit used in the Plaid. It's even more impressive!
Thanks for the recent flow of videos! Please keep them coming!!
Fantastic video! Plz make one detailing how the LV fuse situation works with the Vcfront
I already did awhile ago. If you liked this one, you'll probably enjoy my whole catalog. th-cam.com/video/fUCgLCbX_18/w-d-xo.html
Stumbled on your channel from a video from Electrified with Dillon Lummis. You have very interesting videos. Having a Tesla and not having any access to how to fixes for changes is a problem. Thanks
Absolutely amazing episode, very well presented discussion of the Tesla design characteristics of the power management & control circuitry. Thanks for the presentation. I believe the Tesla “product security department” will be sending the black helicopters to your location in an effort to curtail further education of the EV consumer and maintainers. Carry on brother, you are the man!
You REALLLY think that this discussion is NOT in Munro and Associates detailed analysis of Tesla's power delivery?
Well done. I came here from SuperfastMatt and i enjoyed the full 20 minutes of you sharing your experience! I have almost no clue about electronics, but i understood everything, it's fascinating stuff :)
can you talk about the efuses in the lower voltage circuits? i'm assuming it's probably a TI eFuse or analog devices hotswap controller, but i have never seen what tesla actually uses.
Ok, it's on the list!
Tesla's iterative engineering development is insane.
Fantastic explanation!! The understanding of the behavior of electrons under different scenarios or conditions is the cornerstone of E.E! Just imagine as technology continues to be developed in R and D labs to create conditions that dont happen in nature to study just how electrons respond to such conditions is so intriguing. What a time to be alive!! And to think all throughout human history, scientist's clever design is just exploiting nature's tendency to return to equilibrium.
I had to get my HV battery contact switch replaced recently (2017 X) and they replaced the pyro fuse at the same time -- both under battery/drivetrain warrenty.
Amazing explanation!
@2:00 You have raised an interesting question in my mind. You say that "inductance is the property of electricity to continue going." and "the electrons that are stacked up behind want to keep going.. inertia". I like this visualization but wonder if this inertia is simply a consequence of the collapsing field. My understanding of inductance is, it's the quantity of potential energy stored in the field created around a conductor, like that of a wound spring. If your statement is true, is the "inertia" that is driving the electrons through the plasma coming from the field collapsing? or more so, from the stored battery potential? And, if it's coming more from the battery potential, is it truly "inertia" or "inductance" considering the battery is continuing to feed the conductor with electrons.
Great video, and I appreciate you taking the time to share this information.
Yes, I was making a generalization not trying to get into the weeds. If people want to know more about it, there are plenty of existing resources.
I'm here from SuperfastMatt's channel. Fantastic video! Thumbs and subs.
Interesting concept. So the pyro parts has enough time to fully open to a distance where the inductive spark is no longer a risk. And the time is determinded by time lag behavior (or heat up time) of the 30A fuses
Keep in mind this will probably be at least several thousand amps, if not tens of thousands. It's WAY faster than the old 950A time-delay fuse.
Thanks for this video and sharing your knowledge and research.
Wow, More videos like this. Thanks!
I definitely plan on it! If you are feeling generous, you can also support my channel! There is a link at the bottom of my channel's "about" page: th-cam.com/users/Ingineerixabout
Can you talk about what the E- fuses are and how they work in a model 3. I'm used to the old fashioned fuses. Are they just FETs? Are there extra circuits provided for user installed devices ? Can we just connect auxiliary circuits to the 12V battery with fused protection or does that void the warranty ?
Yes, Basically a MOSFET with hardware and software current triggering. It's on the list!
This isn’t new Telsa tech, the power distribution industry has used electronic fuses and arc diverters for a long time. Cool video though!
This entire channel is amazing, so excited to have found these videos. Do you run a repair shop or something?
These are all very clever, but I don't understand why they wouldn't just use a Circuit Breaker instead.
Great video by the way
Because the circuit they are trying to break could be running at 400V and tens of thousands of amps. You can find circuit breakers capable of handling that, but they are going to cost you a couple thousand bucks a piece. If Tesla was selling their latest model for $15, you know their wholesale cost is below that. So, there's your answer. A $10 assembly vs. a $2,000 circuit breaker. Any wonder Tesla went the direction they did?
@@JohnSmith-rf1tx I mean a QO Breaker can do 240V and up to 22kA interruption and costs under $30 USD. With the arcstack they are already using and a faster breaking speed they could do an assembly for under $50 that can be reset if needed. I think one of the main complaints fo the video was not having access to this assembly anymore and selling for $300 USD on ebay
@@TheAssassinPanda You're confusing the breaker rating with kAIC. kAIC is how much the breaker hand interrupt without damaging the rest of the panel. The breaker you're describing is designed to normally break tens or hundreds of amps, not thousands, and would trip under moderate acceleration.
excellent explanation, thanks.
Nice video, thanks P.
Great video! Loved all the technical details.
That’s super interesting. I wonder if Tesla has been upgrading the original Pyro fuses with the later self powered versions?
Only in the event of a problem. Though if I were an owner of an early car with Insane or ludicrous mode, I would personally install one of these new units before the 10 year mark. So this is cars from 2014-2018.
Your videos are proving invaluable to my EV conversion project (2021 Y into a Volvo V70). Thank you. I am having trouble finding information about the RS309-MF fuse block in the penthouse. Is this for phase protection, motor protection or contactor protection? Should there be 3 fuses in the block, or two? Again, Thank you.
These are for the PCS HV and the HV ancillaries, so 2 fuses on heat-pump cars (2nd fuse is A/C compressor), and on older cars; 3rd fuse is the cabin PTC heater. Please be careful! Voltages are live in the penthouse and can be instantly lethal! If you need professional assistance, you can email me, my contact information is in my channel's "about" page: (use a full browser) th-cam.com/users/ingineerixabout
Since the power for the latest fuse comes from further away instead of being powered locally from harvested voltage, isn't there a new big risk that the cable could be severed and you wouldn't trip the fuse?
The cable is very short and the whole assembly is in the penthouse on TOP the battery. I don't see it happening.
The controller may be measuring the the resistance and throw a fault when it is disconnected
Love your videos and explanations.
This is the greatest TSLA content IMO. Thank you.
Very very informative video bro. Thank you for the time and effort here. Very helpful
I agree with you on the issue of right to fix, but seeing from Tesla’s side: it should only be done by qualified or persons who know what they’re doing. Without that restriction, these cars can be repaired poorly, and present a real danger for its occupants. The public would know no difference other than that it happened in a Tesla.
How is this any different from ANY repair? If I repair your Dodge Hellcat and forget to tighten the fuel line when I replace it, and it sprays HIGHLY FLAMMABLE LIQUID everywhere, then what? Obviously people should be qualified, but a summarily delivered NO, regardless of qualification is sort of draconian!
Auto repair shops are inherently qualified to handle electric cars. Auto mechanics are skilled problem solvers that can follow a repair manual to fix anything. This fear spreading only plays to Tesla's advantage to maintain repair monopoly on their products.
@@Ingineerix Do you have any thoughts on how the issue could be solved? I do see both sides of the argument. Would something like a digitally signed maintenance log where it shows that you have replaced the fuse to this car be a solution (you would only be given the fuse after signing such a log entry)? That would have two functions: a) clears Tesla of any responsibility related to a botched fuse replacement and b) unambiguously places the responsibility on you (so you would have a clear incentive to actually know what you are doing)
@@antronx7 Your average auto mechanic of today has no idea of high-voltage systems. Definitely needs some sort of certification system. This will of course change with time as more and more mechanics have HV training. Any deep diagnostics into the high-voltage systems that require actually touching/probing energized parts is in some jurisdictions illegal to do unless you have the proper training.
Thanks for a great presentation so nice to know these details.
it is sometimes the bms or the battery that short circuits and then it is usually unstoppable....when this happens ......there must also be space for his ways hiten because temperature difference you also need space also in a collision or damage battery can make it go off like a rocket 18650 pierce it and hate it off like a rocket 3.7 volts...for 1 sel and there are a whole lot in it per so many packs
Amazing video
thank you for the exelente explanation
Excellent presentation and explanation. Not sure how 3rd party repair threatens tsla.....but it leaves their products as too exclusive for me.
Great video, very interesting!
Great Video. Thanks!
Wow, great video. Super educational! Thank you.
I don't think that that fuse blows when the car is in an accident. I think it only blows with high current or a direct short. There is another fuse under the front trunk. I think that the fire men's loop and the fuse under the front trunk is wired in series and that opens the contacts in a crash
In Model 3/Y it most definitely blows when there is an airbag deployment. In S/X the 12v contactor pyrofuse blows. In either case, the car loses HV after an airbag deploys.
@@Ingineerix Ok thanks!
Interesting, thanks. I think a big driver of the new ‘disposable’ design is cost reduction. Those previous models that incorporated one, or multiple, off-the-shelf fuses, plus all the electronics, would’ve been horrendously expensive (100s-of-Ampes DC arc-quenching fuses are REALLY expensive!). Given the rarity of fusible events they, IMO reasonably, decided that an ‘unrepairable’ design was a better option, and probably shaved $1k off the $RRP.
From experience, some kinds of SEUs (google it) on the older fuse protected stuff would turn the inverter into magma before the fuse blew. The Pyrofuse is way faster and sometimes you can literally just replace the pyrofuse and it operates again. But the main reason was actual protection: They found they had to size the fuses so large to avoid stress failures (nuisance trip) in the fuse, that whenever there was an actual short, the fuse withstood it and bad things happened. This is because they kept upping the amperage demands on the pack as they improved the performance. Now the plaid is at 2300A. Good luck locating a fuse that can tolerate 2300A for 30 seconds, but will instantly trip if there is a 2400A fault.
Excellent Learning Video! Thanks!
Autoliv is a SWEDISH company 🇸🇪
Fascinating! Thx
19:15 There are actually pyrotechnic breakers, mostly used in power distribution, that use a .22 lr blank cartridge as their explosive charge. Cheap and easy. Problem there is, you really don't want people driving cars across international borders carrying "ammunition", the ownership of which might be regulated in that place.
Agree with the right to repair. Specially since Teslas service centers are stretched thin and will prob continue to be for a while.
I’m baffled by Tesla restricting / refusing to sell so many of their parts. They get so many things right, where other car manufacturers fail, but this issue needs a resolution. It’s like a dirty little secret that is so unlike Tesla.
No, Tesla has always been like this. They are taking notes from the Apple play book, they just want you to just buy a new Tesla, they clearly don't want repaired ones on the road. They are doing pretty much the minimum they are being forced to do.
Cool stuff! Great description.
We should all support Right To Repair in our own states.
This looks like a Pyrofuse from Autoliv in Sweden.
I have a similar question as roselyn, my 2014 is telling me to replace the battery fuse. Is this a scheduled warning? Do the sand fuses degrade?
Super interesting stuff, amazing how even trivial parts like fuses evolve. Fully agree with your Right to Repair comments at the end. Question: Does the pyro fuse(s) live inside the battery pack? Does the vehicle monitor the 2 Lithium cells or are you suddenly unprotected after 10 years (coming up soon for 2012 Model S) ?
The 2012-2013 Model S has the early fuse that does not have a current monitoring board; those were installed in the later dual-motor and performance versions, AFAIK. So, your early production car avoids this particular pitfall (but you still have the problematic/high-failure main contactors, the fuse-blowing DC-DC Converter, and all the rest of the early prod. issues we suffer).
Doesn't it come down to a safety issue when owners with little knowledge of the vehicle is doing DIY repairs? The question is who is doing them correctly and when they go up in a fireball when it is repaired incorrectly who gets hurt? This isn't as simple as a glass screen if repaired incorrectly doesn't hurt anyone.
Also, a bad repair can lead to breaking/wearing something else.
Americans were doing questionable repairs long before Tesla. Tesla isn't responsible for that nor has any auto manufacturer ever been. My opinion is that Tesla doesn't want a tarnished reputation from someone else's potentially-poor repair.
Repair and parts issues are the only reason for me to not get a Tesla. Sad
Minor nitpick...I know you were trying to explain in an oversimplified way, but gas is not plasma. Plasma is a completely separate state of matter from gas...plasma isn't gas any more than gas is liquid.
6:30 minor mistake, peak current is two thousand amps, not two hundred)
Thanks for noticing!
Great video! Is the pyro fuse rated to work continuously at 2000A? Or it blows at that amps?
Depends on Model and BMS. They have 2 trip levels each for on Model 3/Y and 2021+ S/X. HWOC which is a hardware level instant trip, and a software derived trip where current profile is outside of normal drive unit consumption possibility. I don't know the specific HWOC levels, but if you want to buy me a BMS computer from one of those models, I will test it and publish the setting.
so COOOLLL!
I hate apple's practice of restricting parts, but what I have seen is that they worriy about their cars bursting on fire more than other cars manufacturers because they are always on the spotlight, it might also crash their stock, the car may need a revision after a crash or a simple fuse blow, and buying a new fuse and replacing it will allow it to road ready but if it bursts on fire, breaking news across the globe (same with fast charge). Its even worse with autopilot, if you change your car, and they don't block autopilot, your change might cause the car to kill someone while in autopilot, that happening over and over may end tesla for good. I don't know what can be the solution for this problem, it must be fixed, but we have to be open minded and not put them in the same basket as apple, these are matters of life and death, they have to manage to bring us cool tech, without killing people or ruining the company, removing sloppy repairs from the equation will help a lot in the beginning, but again it must be solved, we should have the write to repair.
I agree. I'm reasonably sure most of these "play it safe" moves are to protect the stock price. However by making them hard to repair, they are making the cars have lower value later in life, and the secondary market values after any insurance action are really hurting the brand long-term. Insurance rates on Teslas have become so high that Tesla is now having to roll out their own insurance. It's all due to Tesla's policies!
@@Ingineerix While I do believe stock price is a part of the considerations on these issues, I don't think it is ever a deciding factor. A much more important thing to consider comes from how Elon has described how he measures Tesla's success, which was about "by how many years/months did Tesla accelerate the transition to sustainable energy". High-profile accidents do not only tank the stock price but also, and more importantly, cause reputation damage to EVs in general, which would not help with the transition. At some point, of course, the other side of the coin starts to weigh more (as more and more of the fleet starts aging and needs more repairs) so their stance could change.
Hi guys! Anybody help me please. I bought 2013 model S after collision and my driver screen doesn’t work and doesn’t shift to drive. But big screen and lights work. What needs to be done to fix it?
Another great video, thank you. When this fuse blows will you lose ota connectivity or app connectivity? My screen shows HV battery at 40% so did it not cut the HV? I'm still able to charge as well.
If the pyro blows you lose HV. You'll still see the state of charge, but car would not drive or charge. Since you can still charge, your pyro is not blown. It will not affect connectivity.
3 seat belts discharged in the accident so contrary to popular belief, discharged seat belts do not trigger pyro fuse since I am still able to charge. Last software update was Feb 2023 on this 2021 Plaid S and the car sitting in a salvage yard since April will not connect to the app. Any ideas?@@Ingineerix
Data sheet for the LTC3108 contains the the words peltier and thermoelectric. Are you sure they’re sourcing the low voltage from the shunt signal?
Positive. The LTC3108 is a ultra low voltage boost converter. This voltage comes from the drop across the shunt itself. There is clearly no other power source. The only connections to the PCB are the squib and the shunt.
i like shiny circuit boards
What year and month did Tesla start using the new fuse without the battery on the S/X?
Unknown. It probably wasn't even on a certain date, they probably went through all the stock and then switched. Though apparently Tesla keeps track of this and will contact owners of the older ones to replace them with the current-powered units, otherwise they will not have any protection.
Buss fuse... is the filament in a vacuum, like a light bulb?
No, There is no point. A light bulb has to have oxygen removed so the filament will survive the high temperature without oxidizing. A fuse only gets to a high temperature once, and you want it to burn when it does!
wow!
I LIKE SO MUCH YOUR TUBE :) THX AGAIN REALLY APPRECIATE
Can you replace the old Pyro switch with a newer style one that doesn't go bad on a 2013 Model S?
The ones used in 2013 cars do not "go bad". If you have the alert, it's a mistake.
hello, are you able to point out or show where are the fuses on 2022 tesla model s plaid?
The only fuses present have been pointed out in my Plaid videos. There are no low-voltage fuses, they are all eFuses.
My takeaway is Tesla has insane engineers.
I have a 2015 S85D. Does it come with the improved high amp fuse ( 4:07 ) or the pyro fuse ( 7:33 )?
I don't think the Pyro based fuse was added until the 90 packs. I know there was a procedure to upgrade a P85D to Ludicrous that included upgrading the fuse, but since your car is not a "P", it's unlikely to have it.
Could people disable electric vehicles with an EMP while you're driving?
A large EMP would probably disable any vehicle built in the last 30 years!
That's Elongated Muskrati . . . fighting right to repair
Does Louis Rossman know about this video?
For me it does sound like that older Teslas would be more dangerous if battery pack will be damaged and these small baterries holds nothing.
When did they switch from the battery powered iconel fuse to the shunt powered one? Curious if August 2018 P100D is a ticking time bomb or will work correctly for years to come regarding the pack fuse.
Should be able to tell from the parts lists / production change list for the car model.
@@morrisg in the parts catalog or somewhere else?
Should keep bugging Mr. Musk on Twitter on the right to repair issue. He's a reasonable guy, he would answer if he's aware of it I think.
Feel free. I've already tried to no avail.