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Squats Part 2: Fold-Ability and Proportions (Examples and Adjustments)
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 2 ก.พ. 2015
- Continued from Video 1 ( • Squats Part 1: Fold-Ab... )
Trainer to the Trainers®, Tom Purvis (tompurvis.com) from the Resistance Training Specialist Program (RTS) shares some thoughts and mechanical realities of squatting.
This time, we see some examples, and some options for adjusting the exercise to fit the individual ie CLIENT-DEFINED EXERCISE
For live courses and in-depth exploration of exercise mechanics, you can visit RTS at www.RTS123.com
*a PTDC admin may respond to comments, but the Instructor in video will not, so please keep that in mind before you comment!!!*
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I think your amazing man, you have def help me understand that I am going in the right direction as a trainer. I have always told others you need to not only know anatomy in and out, but you need to understand whats happening during movements, whos pulling on who, whos being inhibited and etc. One of these days I hope you could use me as an example to show others about skeletal proportions. I am pretty much have hyper-mobility in all my joints and my dorsal flexion and plantar flexion is supreme and although I can fully squat there is a definite compromise of thoracal flexion. At first I thought the problem lied within the internal rotation in my hips but I learned months down the road this was not the case and started researching my own bone structure. I am not saying trainers out there are bad but I definitely think there needs to be new standards put out there before handing one a certification or degree in human movement.
i agree
Agree 100% this man just saved my squat and with such grace!
Thank you- thank you - THANK YOU!!!! I have been working with personal trainers for over 16 months and my squat has ALWAYS been an issue. I kept telling them exactly the same thing- I CAN’T GET LOWER, I’M GOING TO FALL. It was so frustrating! The only way I could do it was with a super wide stance and elevated heels. I made some improvement by increasing flexibility but I was so mad that I didn’t seem to be making any progress. Thank you so so much!!!!!!
I have a long femur. Your video is the sanest explanation i have ever seen or heard.
I have a few people i will show this to. Thanks for being generous and taking time to put
this video together and post it!
I am a competitive powerlifter built just like the second gentleman in this video. I am constantly frustrated and searching for knowledge to “figure out” my squat. Thank you for putting this unconventional video together!! 🙏 Please keep teaching!!
You are a goldmine of knowledge. I can hardly believe you're sharing it for free. Thank you, sir.
If it was not for this video, after 10 years of squatting with a forward lean and being told I was shit, I would have quit. Thank you.
this man may sound smug, but it's clear that he's had enough of hearing all those bullshit about squats and squatting. awesome and simple and clear videos, to be spread globally goddamit
I usually don't like smugness but I liked his lol cause he wants to help! And sharing for freeee!
YASSS!! This. I just started training and my trainer (soon to be my ex-trainer) kept telling me that I was too far forward and that my knees were too far over my toes. When I did it 'the right way' however I kept falling down or feeling pain in my knees and my lower back. I knew that falling backward was an indicator that something was off biomechanically speaking. When in doubt look for scientific research. I've now read multiple studies and seen all of these videos and have measured both my proportions and my flexibility and have worked out with just a little bit of research that my trainer is not as knowledgeable as she would like me to believe. Time for a new one. Thank you again!
I've been squatting in elevated heals for a long time. Watching this video made me realize I probably should be squatting wider and doing it with a flatter shoe. My first workout with a wider stance and a flat shoe I PRd on my squat, and my knees feel better. I also don't need a belt nearly as much, this video has helped me a great deal.
What's your bar position? And how tall are you?
@Re nato 5 year old comment and I get a reply. I agree its dependent on the person. My leg lengths cause knee pain in elevated heals. Been 5 years and haven't had knee pain since.
@@TheBlooRayChannel Mostly low bar, medium stance. The tops of my knees used to get sore constantly, aching. 6'2 tall. I switched to flatter shoe and it did the job.
This information as been life changing to my approach to customizing exercises for my clients. Tom Purvis and the RTS programs are AMAZING.
Thank you for changing helping change my clients lives!
I can't even say how many trainers have said I "squat wrong". I have been working out pretty much my whole life, and I have never had a trainer that realized that maybe I struggled with squating because of my proportions. I have even worked with a phisical therapist to try and deeppen my squat, but the changes were pretty minimal. One day, my crossfit coach, who is the same height as me and squats beautifully, measured my femur, torso and tibia against his. What we discovered was that I had a much longer femur and much shorter torso and tibia than he did. My husband is about 2 inches taller than me and I have a longer femur than him. Knowing this, I don't feel as frustrated as did.
Once again, Tom, this is exactly what I have been teaching for years!! Kreighbaum and Barthels in their biomechanics textbook spoke on optimizing style of technique based on somatotype (variable segment lengths) to optimize the external line of force accordingly. The Russians wrote numerous training manuals stating the importance of this to optimize technique for each lifter (a great one is entitled "Textbook of Weightlifting" by V.N. Vorobyev). So glad you mentioned the fallacy of the knee moving forward and it isn't bad. Weightlifters (Olympic), when the catch a snatch or Clean and Jerk, are in an upright position with knees forward. The also have a very low rate of injury on the knee joint (little damage to the CT surrounding the joint). The general public, as well as the fitness industry, doesn't truly understand somatotypes and their effects on style of technique (mechanics). Thanks again!!!
It is refreshing to see someone that really knows what they are talking about.
Thank you for posting this.
Finally some one gets it! Im basically the same as the second guy. Short torso & long femur. Widening my stance, with my knees pointed out slightly makes me look like im built to squat. No back or knee pain. A PT in my gym, however, told me this stance was wrong. As you said, its not one size fits all. Everyone has different porportions and the way you squat is dictated by this.
At first I was like 8 minutes? And at the end I was stunned that 8 minutes had gone by. Superb, and it'll probably change the way I squat. I have long femurs I've learned from these two videos and will try wider next time. Thank you!
5 years later this guy is super smart. Simple setup but extremely informative and relevant. Way better content than the likes of athleanX . I wish i found him earlier.
👏You're a breath of fresh air! Thank you. Like many it seems, I've been having the same issues with "specialists", at the gym, or elsewhere. It was only when I started considering my applied maths/levers and fulcrums from back in school that I started asking myself the right questions. As a long femur'd, even longer tibia'd guy with a short trunk I found squats just gave me back and neck pain. Eventually I readjusted and widened my stance regardless of contrary advice. It helped immensely. Following that I switched to the leg press and adjusted till I was comfortable (as I see you also mention) and also benefited greatly. Such a pleasure to hear your observations and advice. Finally someone who says what needs to be said, and knows what they're talking about. 🙌
holy shit, how come this channel hasnt blown up is way beyond me :(. I will share your channel in all my social network so everyone who lifts can see this. Such a valuable knowledge. I wish we had these kind of seminar in our country.
Oh my God, this video is one of the most useful video in the world, GREAT!
I’ve only recently come across your channel and have been back several times. Absolutely love your content, very educational and informative.
Im 7 years late but this video is quite literally the key to understanding how to optimally squat, definitely coming back to this channel for a better understanding of the biomechanics behind different exercises
Definitely sharing the videos with my friends, clients and followers.
After 8 years this is still so accurate.
Amazing stuff and I'm surprised this isn't talked about more often. I tried for a full year to train low bar squats. I have a super short torso, relatively long femurs, so when I go low bar I'm either folded over and can't hit depth or I get weird tendon pain from trying to stay upright and the bar being behind my midfoot. I've since adopted a wider stance, train high bar only and my back and knees are happier.
dan lee look up johny candito hybrid squat is best for long femurs short torso
Great video. I've always wanted to squat my whole life but I have terrible ankle mobility and long femurs. It's laughable how low I can go without squat shoes on...
Finally someone who understands!!! I've pretty much had to figure all this stuff out on my own already but you seem to be right on the money...
My issue is I need a very wide stance and very elevated heel with low-bar squat position and the wide stance is aggravating my groin and I get clicky hips etc probably from hip flexors clunking over the flexor surface of my hip joint... I'm still working on it slowly...
This series of videos is the most explanatory information I have come across.
As a previous personal trainer and gym goer for over 20 years, the biomechanical explanations of femur-tibia relationships had been extremely informative.
Finally someone demonstrates what I was convinced of for years in my
incapability to go fully down in utkatasana! My doc diagnosed me with an
overlong femur when I was 12 and yet I'm overflexible so not being able
to squat low is definitively not linked to stiffness in my case! Tried
to explain that in vain to various pple including yoga teachers. Thank
you so much for clarifying this to the public!
I’m obviously late to this video, but at almost 40, I’m glad to see it now and not never. :)
This has changed my life. I wondered what was wrong with me and why I couldn't squat properly (having tested mobility in all relevant joints and found full range of motion). I'd auto regulated to a degree I suppose, having naturally gone to widen my stance and turn out my feet. However I injured my groin because it wasn't physically possible for my body to adopt the necessary angles. However having watched this and with a plate under each foot, I squatted ATG first time. No pain. Perfect positioning. I could even pistol squat (both feats that I thought superhuman and a physical impossibility). Bought myself squat shoes and the world is right again. Thank you so much, I will share this wherever I can. No doubt it will help countless others like its helped me. Incredible.
Some of the best, and simplest, videos on how different proportions change how the squat should be performed. Great job. You dogmatic squat guys know who you are....
this video even if quite old is so actual. I like to go back to this vid from time to time. It's one of my favourites, especially with the metal squat dude.
Thank you for this video. It has explained a lifetime of struggles and uncertainty I've had about my squatting.
This guy is blowing my mind! Never have my squat problems been explained so well before!!! :o
And the awesomeness continues. I'll be passing this on to people in my network. The concept of foreshortening is extremely valuable and SO underutilized in the training world.
Very informative and so right about the Squatting is not magic unless you make it magic for the individual. We need to know what we are doing in regards to individual biomechanics. Thumbs up man!
I send this video to patients. It is a beautiful explanation as to why we are not all built to squat. Thank you :)
Along with myquatmechanics.com this is the best contribution on the Web to the understanding and discussion of the squat from a bio-mechanical standpoint, which is crucial udnerstanding for anyone who does not fit the biometric shape of a classic squat body.
keep these coming Tom!! great information buddy
Best squat explanation I have ever heard, and seen :D Thanks a lot!
Please, i need to see more videos like this from you! Thank you
Wonderful set of videos explaining squatting and proportions. Thank you for encouraging mechanically viable solutions!
Hands down the best explanation I've ever seen. Nice to see science behind it rather than some self taught built buff bro assuming to be an expert
Was linked here by a squat discussion on Reddit. Really helpful as a tall guy struggling with squats.
most informative series on squatting i've found
Omg guy in the blue pants is me with the proportions exactly, everyone makes fun of my squats but idk how adjust for how long my legs are 😢 Thanks for this! I can get all the way with my butt to the floor but my femurs are so long that I would have to widen my knees to be able to do that or lean so far foward 😅
Most of my clients over the years were avg people not all athletes and yeah the Bball guys had issues with the squat but also they were taped up hard on the lower limbs and had the Dorsi flexion of a stop sign. Mobilizing made a huge difference.
In regards to the 2nd guy with long femurs, I would argue that the heel lift doesn’t just “bolster ankle dorsiflexion”, but it also artificially increases tibia length. I didn’t hear you mention that. I’d be interested to hear your thoughts on that analysis.
That was a good insight on a reason why a wider foot/knee stance can feel/look better.
Great video! Very informative. BPak sent me here!
INCREDIBLE!
Where were you hiding the past year? I wish more people could see these!! you are awesome!
cheers!
incredible video
I'm more like the 2nd guy. Longer torso, but basically the same femur/tibia proportions, with big feet. What worked for me was sumo squats. But my squat was always less than 80% of the dead lift. Only so much you can do about your bone structure.
Thanks for the amazing two videos on squats.
mind = blown
Thank you very much for your content!
Another great video and explanation, in my opinion. Thank you.
Been trying to learn to squat for over a year! Currently taking a week break because its killing my back. I have short legs and a bit long torso, helps to know there isn't just one way to squat
Yeah this explains it. My floor to knee is super short and femur long. Could never squat. Had an injury I finally got surgery for and got some improvement on my squat plus have been stretching and trying to go deep for months. I got deeper, but I’m capped at parallel. Everyone told me I should be able to do it. But my knees can’t go far enough to let me fold up.
What is the ideal "foot to knee distance" ratio vs femur and upper body length?
Awesome explanation and easy to understand (loved the previous video where you explained with the model)
great info man! i forget this info allll the time and get lost in the hae of training! keep it up man
Very very useful and valuable
Excellent! This is just what I needed
Beautiful instruction!
Great video. Learned a lot..
This is brilliant.
Great video, i was looking for an explanation of this kind... I never truely understood why my range of motion is so poor when it comes to Squats :) #teamnocalves :D I usually put some 10 pound plates underneath my heels to get a better ROM but at 2:57 he recommends NOT to keep putting more stuff under peoples Heels, why is that ? It is kind of Contradictorary with what he says at the end: "leaning the knees forward does not increase the risk of knee injury" (smthg like that) So why shouldn't i put stuff underneath my heels ? In which sense is it bad ? Thanks in advance
This is brilliant...is there a standardised way of working out which proportions are optimal. Is there an ideal ratio
Great content. Thanks so much!
Huge like for this video, fantastic
Awesome!!!!!!!! Thanks teacher
Great informative vid!
Tom is tha man!
Hey, thank you very much for the videos, I was aware of the tibia to femur ratio and how it influences the squat, and your displays are a great help. I was wondering what you would recommend for the pistol squat, would you recommend putting something underneath the heal, abandoning the movement, or something different?
just amazing
Being a 6'4 dude trying to close stance squat LOL...seeing this was just awesome
Agreed. 6'5 (196 cm) guy here... I always find myself bending forward, making it more of a goodmorning than an actual squat. I guess our amazing heights come with sacrifices
thanks very clever
"It's not the knee, its the patellafabraw forces". 7:39
I didn't catch that, what exactly is it? Very curious about that part. Great video.
patellafemoral forces
where do i put weight on foot? heel? feet turned out?
We rarely see things we haven't looked for.
This was very useful thanks.
I think I already know the answer to this but if you will require a wide stance to squat with good form I would imagine you would want to use a wide stance on the leg press machine as well?
What is a rationale for lack of dorsiflexion if not tight gastocnemius?
Amen!
Not going to argue about the influence of the squat stance width on the overall biomechanics ("shortening" the femur), but aren't there downsides of a wide stance, such as more load on the adductors and hip flexors?
“Little metal squat dude” 😂
Okay so this guy is a badass. 😯
What are patello femoral forces you talk about in the end?
would also like to have patellofemoral forces explained.
We go into this in depth in our courses. We may go into that detail here on TH-cam as well. For now, please explore "resultants" and then let us know when you got that piece understood.
At around 7:40 you say "it's not the knee; it's the patellofemoral forces". But isn't the patellofemoral part of the knee?
And would you mind confirming. Is it correct that you'd recommend NOT using blocks under heels?
I have very poor ankle dorsiflexion and even with a wide stance I have trouble going below parallel in a bodyweight squat. If I shouldn't use blocks under my knees how can I improve my deep squat form?
Is that first example BPak?
indeed it is
So is it alright to raise your heels with plates or squat shoes or will that damage your knee?
so i think i may have terrible proportions for squatting but I've never really had to deep squat before so i may have have some ROM issues from that as well as due to past injuries. I've asked around including my physical therapist and they don't know and don't care since squatting to parallel is all they care about. is there any way i can accurately test this myself? obviously i could set up a camera but i wouldn't be entirely sure what is affecting my form.
My segment proportions are similar to the #2 gentleman. I find Low bar squatting more comfortable all round. I'm told this is expected. Is it from your experience as well?
My proportions are "perfect" i have almost exactly 60 cm from toe to knee, 60 cm from knee to hip, 60 cm from hip to shoulder and 60 cm from shoulder to wrist. I should probably quit lifting, right?
I have long femurs but when I try to angle my legs outwards my hips hurt :(
Gold
Out of curiosity, when widening the stance does the position where the head of the femur sits in the hip change? What I mean is, are there stronger/weaker areas more prone to problems when you put several hundred extra pounds on them? Also are you relying on different ligaments/connective tissue for support of that joint as you change the width of your stance?
Lift Pizzas Very good questions. Unfortunately, we know that there are vastly different hip structures, but we havent studied those variations with different squats yet. So lot of info has to rely on logical reasoning. You might like this one: bretcontreras.com/no-two-hips-are-the-same-how-anatomical-variance-can-affect-your-range-of-motion/ So a hard and fast rule may be to eliminate muscle restrictions on your natural ROM, determine your ROM in all directions and then use a stance and movement that fits your natural ROMs.
Is it okay that the guy at 6:04 is above parallel?
Well let's talk about gentleman #2's ankle capsular slack and his calf muscle mobility. If those sliding surfaced and his ankle are stuck and or impinged, that would be affecting his knee travel and shortening his path of travel, throwing off his hips and back?
Nope, it was his segmental proportions
Dillon Padgette sliding surfaced?
The only thing, and I'm not trying to be argumentative, modified in the two guys was that they widened their stance. I know the one guy had his heels propped-up, but it didn't improve anything.
I believe there are some common principles to follow for everybody, and one is what this video affirmed, which is that when squatting for force production (as opposed to merely restful squatting) people should stand with their feet outside their hips, as a minimum. Powerlifters tend to get crazy wide, but they have unusual mobility.
I also find that changing toe position can be a game changer. For years I've tried to point my toes not too far out, and it retarded my progress. Lately I've been letting my toes point way outward and it's the only thing that gets me squatting down comfortably with any weight at all. My proportions are somewhere between the first and second guy. Second guy seemed to modify position of his toes too.
So if one starts to find some awkward pain in his patella, and his knee does go over his toes, he should try avoid that position. I assume high heeled shoes are off at that point. One way would be trying to open up the knees, but what if his structure is prohibiting it?
Open up the knees?
Woah!!!
What does that mean?
PersonalTrainingdotcom Let me correct myself: widen his stance rather than "open up the knees".
English isn't my first language and I'm very sorry for the bad choice of words.
Ok I understand. Thanks.
If the structure is prohibiting your ability to make adjustments, and the squats you CAN perform cause pain, then perhaps it's time to question whether that exercise should be a part of your training...
He do have some "InTension"-based cues that we teach in our live classes, but I hesitate to share via TH-cam, as it cannot be properly conveyed via this medium.
I would like to know more about increased patella femoral forces caused by raising the heel. Since squatting in a 0.75" heel I have noticed more patella ache. Clearly there is a balancing act between using the heel to reduce back angle at the expense of more patella stress? I'm a long femur'd short torso'd guy.
Sounds like perhaps you need some strategic variation!
Don't forget - it's not just adjustments to squats, but sometimes substitutions for squats.
Brace yourself, but not everyone should squat regularly! Oh my god - such heresy!!!
But really, you've got many options - explore them objectively.
If your individual proportions don't match up with squatting well, then other multiple joint pressing may fit you better.
...it's funny, for all those people out there that dismiss or CONDEMN smith machine use and /or machines such as leg presses, they never seem to see that those options, when done strategically and with control, can be an extremely valuable substitution for some individuals.
Cheers
PersonalTrainingdotcom If even the extreme example in this video can use simple adjustments to squat below parallel then what would stop someone squatting regularly except a medical/injury abnormality?
Lucas MacEochaidh Outside of "medical/injury abnormality" and poor mobility, nothing should prevent the average person from squatting below parallel. Generally speaking, we're born with the range of motion in our ankles, knees and hips to squat that low, whether it be for resting or for fitness, which are two different types of squats, by the way.
Michael Libbie he's saying otherwise which is why I asked for an explanation.
Lucas MacEochaidh Oh, I see what you mean. I had to read things closer. In his reply to the guy asking about patellar pain, Purvis said, "but not everyone should squat regularly", and that's what you were referring to.
My guess is that he means just the type of people you mention, i.e. people who have some "medical/injury abnormality" issue that makes squatting more harmful than beneficial. I've had at least one client fit that scenario.